#the names of the Greeks

[gemsofgreece]

Hi there, hope you're doing well ! I've been lurking around your blog for a while, but felt kind of shy to ask anything. In any case, and dunno if this has been asked to you already, but it is the first time I hear this term. Is this actually true?

I saw this comment on a video regarding the Byzantine Empire. People started a debate wether it's actually "just the Roman Empire" or the Byzantine Empire. I've been told Greeks call themselves ’Ελληνες, but it's the very first time in my life I hear the term Ρωμιοί.

Hello! It is totally true, albeit oversimplified in this comment and not at all easy to explain. I have answered a similar ask before but I have read a little more since then and I would like to give a new more informed and thus EVEN longer answer. Brace yourself.

So, there are actually four widespread names by which Greeks are known to this day: Hellenes, Greeks, Romans and Ionians.

The name Romans or Ρωμαίοι / Ρωμιοί (Roméi / Romjí) in Greek and Rum in Turkish is a remnant of the Roman / Byzantine heritage. So as you might know, the “original” Romans conquered the Greek territories and colonies around 200-40 BCE. For the most part, it is safe to say the Greeks were privileged in the Roman Empire. So much so, that Romans maintained Greek as the lingua franca and promoted Greek culture in at least the whole eastern part of the Roman Empire, while the initiation to the Greek language and culture was also a “must” in the elite of the Western part. Under these circumstances, the Greeks naturally embraced their new status as Roman citizens.

In history, such a thing as a Byzantine empire does not actually exist. In the end of the 4th century the Roman Empire split into western and eastern, theoretically in order to be better reigned. The Latins / original Romans were in the western part. The Greeks were in the eastern part which retained the Greek heritage the original Romans had more than allowed them to preserve. The western part was however dissolved for good within a century or so. That left the “non-Latin Roman” Eastern Roman Empire to be the remaining Roman Empire for the next 900 years!

For the first couple centuries of its solitary existence, the Eastern Roman Empire (known back then just as Roman Empire as there wasn’t a western one anymore) was in more or less good relations with the Latin states in the west (and also incorporated them for a little while). Progressively more and more problems arose with a most critical one being that the practice of Christianity was becoming more and more different. The bigger the gap, the more the Eastern Roman citizens immersed themselves back into the Greek and a more oriental heritage, originating from the other people of the empire (Armenians, Syrians, Egyptians, Illyrians, the new-coming Slavs etc). After the sixth century AD, Greek was adopted as the official language of the empire and there was clear desire to cut all associations and dependency by Rome’s Pope. The citizens of the Eastern Empire kept calling themselves Romans, which now outraged Western Europeans who considered them heretics and imposters and fabricated a very lurid and unflattering image of them, driven by the Pope’s fury.

Western Europeans usually refused to call the Eastern Roman Empire as such and called it Greek empire instead, due to its most populous ethnic people and its dominant (yet not exclusive) culture. The name “Greek” took a negative meaning in the hostile west at the time. It was true however that the Eastern Roman Empire had ceased having crucial similarities with the original Roman Empire, save for the legislation and maybe a love for horse races 😜

This is what leads to the modern discourse of what the Eastern Roman Empire should be considered. The Byzantine Empire is a term historians came up with to underscore all those differences which according to them made the Eastern Roman Empire a different entity from the initial Roman Empire. The citizens of the actual empire though did consider it Roman as the empire had not ever dissolved properly. Furthermore, as the leading element in the eastern part of the Ancient Roman Empire was already largely Greek, the citizens of the Byzantine Empire weren’t that aware of any sudden radical pro-Greek changes that would make them perceive the empire as a new entity. It is thus almost certain that at that point Roman did not mean “resident of Rome” or “Latin speaker of the Italian peninsula” in the east at all. The Byzantines thought they were the ones who were keeping the Roman Empire alive and as such they were the rightful heirs to its power, glory and title.

All eastern Roman ethnicities were largely aware of their descent, their background outside the Roman citizenship. Maybe the Greeks a little more due to the empire’s raging “Grecophilia”. We know that the Byzantine Greeks studied extensively the classics and the Ancient Greek philosophers and acknowledged them as their ancestors, and not the ancient Romans. This becomes more evident as the Eastern Roman Empire started losing lands to invaders. The last lands standing save for Constantinople were roughly the regions corresponding to modern day Greece. At this point and in general gradually after the 10th century, more and more eastern Romans, especially the wealthier and more educated, start identifying by the ancient term “Hellene”. The name Hellene was avoided considerably before the 10th century as it had acquired the meaning of “idolatrous”. The name “Greek” was used probably prior to the “Hellene” but might have been more avoided once “Hellene” took over as the West had given it the meaning of “debaucherous and corrupted”. Maybe this is the reason Greeks might have embraced the term Roman for longer than the other East Roman ethnicities but it’s also certainly because the Greeks were also the last standing Roman citizens. About 1000 years after the actual Romans!!! Crazy huh?

Then as you know the Ottoman Turks arrived. The Ottomans were trying for about two centuries to conquer the fast weakening and dismantling (thanks to the Crusaders) Roman Empire. But when they did, they knew they conquered the Romans. In a way, the Ottoman Turks got to know the Greeks as Romans and not the Latin Romans of Rome.

Just to complicate things a little more, the Ottomans categorised people based on religion and not ethnicity. So they created the Rum Millet, meaning the “Roman nation”, which was consisting of the Christian Orthodox believers. The Ottoman Sultans relied on the Greeks of Constantinople to govern the Rum Millet and all the ethnicities it consisted of, and as a result the term Roman / Rum remained strongly associated to the ethnic Greeks and the Greek speaking Orthodox people. As a result, Greeks kept calling themselves Romans in the Ottoman era. By that time though, the Greek word for Roman had been influenced by the Turkish word Rum and it had changed from Ρωμαίος (Romaeos) to Ρωμιός (Romiós).

During the Greek revolution and the independence, 300-400 years later, all sources we have point at the fact that wealthy, educated, poor and illiterate Greeks alike used the names Hellenes, Greeks and Romans interchangeably to identify themselves. The ways these names were preserved might have been different though:

Romios/Roman: preserved through the Turkish name for the Greeks and the Greek Orthodox

Hellene: preserved through the Orthodox Church (Greeks are mentioned as Hellenes in the New Testament), by the educated Greeks and by all Greeks who focused on the significance of Greek culture and history as the foundation of the ethnic identity

Greek: either the steadily more colloquial choice and / or popularised once more after several Greeks interacted with Western Europeans, eventually reclaimed by the Greeks without its medieval negative connotations (here I must add that the actual ancient word Γραικός - Graecus had no negative meaning whatsoever)

Nowadays, the name Roman is still used by the Greeks of Turkey and some other Greek minorities in the east. In Greece, it’s falling out of use at exponential rate since the early 20th century, especially as we realise there are less confusing terms to describe us more accurately. But it’s not considered problematic or anything. Nowadays we are “okay” with the term Greek, but we are not enthusiastic about it. Some dislike it as they can’t get over the negative connotations it had for a while. Our historically preferred way to call ourselves is Hellenes, it is the name that reflects our perception of our heritage, language and history. It is also the way we perceive our ethnicity for most of the stages of our existence, even when we called our nationality / citizenship “Roman”.

BONUS 1: And what about the Ionians? Ionians has its roots in the Ancient Greek tribe “Ionians” who first inhabited Anatolia (modern day west Turkey) in the early second millennium BCE. As a result most nations in the Near East call Greeks a variation of Ionians, because this is the easternmost indigenous Greek presence. Turks do too, an ethnic Greek is called Yunan which means Ionian and Greece is called Yunanistan. Yevan is our name in Hebrew and so on. This is a term we embrace but we generally associate more with the ancestral tribe and don’t use it for ourselves regularly.

BONUS 2: Western Europeans were adamant to separate the Byzantine Empire from the Roman Empire as long as all negative stereotypes and beliefs about it were surviving (until very recently). Nowadays that history buffs have spread that research starts showing that the Byzantine Empire has been the longest lasting and a very fascinating part of medieval European history, all of a sudden Western Europeans like to scream at your face the Byzantine Empire never existed and it’s “purely the Roman Empire through and through”. You can draw some interesting conclusions from that…

I like the use of the term Byzantine, not because it’s historically accurate of course, but because the good old western appropriation has started doing its wonders once again.

Hope this is shortened automatically as I don’t see the read below option available anymore, pro-scrollers may you have the best of luck 🤞

[liquidstar]

Yes, Greece still exists, we didn't all die 2000 years ago. Yes, people speak Greek. You people are so fucking stupid for real. So many of you claim to love ancient shit but can't even acknowledge the actual living culture of the people whose mythology and classics you romanticize. You keep leaving annoying comments about how you just forget Greek people still exist, thinking you're being quirky because you love ancient stuff soooo much that you forgot about the people it came from. You think about it so little you don't even realize that an actual Greek person has to read this shit, making it clear how little you actually care about the culture beyond the romanticized (and westernized) mythology. Don't claim you love Greece, don't use our mythology anymore if you can't acknowledge that we're still around without making it about how little you think about us. It's mind boggling that you'd think a Greek person would read this and think you're anything but obnoxious. Explode.

[pomorama]

I find it incredibly funny from a meta/author perspective, that Ancient Greece decided to name their protagonist that angers many people “Anger Bringer” but, even funnier, is the in universe understating that anyone who meets Odysseus must have had the thought “oh dear, how unfortunate to be named hateful/hated” and then they have exactly One conversation with him and go “Ah I see now”

For reference, Odysseus’ name sounds very much like the Greek word odussomai, which can roughly mean “I am angry at” or “I am the cause of anger” (or simply “to hate” or “to dismiss”), a fact that is used for ironic effect frequently in the Odyssey.

It’s also specifically stated in Book 19 that Odysseus’ grandfather, a master thief and one who has also pissed off a lot of people, specifically named him this because “I am disliked by many, all across the world, and I dislike them back. So name the child Odysseus.” 19.428

Bro looked at his grandson and thought “Ahaha, this one’s going to be a troublemaker like me. Better get him started early.”

It’s like a terrible allegory for cause and effect or something.

[justvea18]

Siblings!

[kurj]

minoan miku!! (in a mikuified minoan outfit)

___

more of my minoan art: click

[a-very-sparkly-nerd]

Annabeth: *tries to sacrifice herself for Percy*

Percy:

Percy:

Percy: *jumps off the St. Louis Arch*

[kaahmbem]

legend has it that the young witch circe and the once beautiful nymph scylla shared a complicated past...

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

Started a new book series, and has been a journey...an Odyssey, if you will.

[h0rsegirlpercy]

HUGE day for Greek mythology girlies

[wolfythewitch]

local scientist lady finds merman in pool. more news at 5

[chthonic-cassandra]

Actually we should say that Cassandra screams outside of language. The scream is to gash the fabric of normal life, to rend it into strange tatters. Then it is open to prophecy. Then Cassandra lives in her own future.

Selby Wynn Schwartz, After Sappho

[yonemurishiroku]

Thalia is a name of a muse, so Thalia becomes immortal. Perseus has a happy ending, so Percy gets his happy ending. Jason lived a heroic life and dies a sad death, so Jason gets a heroic life and dies——

[thatlesbeanjew]

Telling my coworker bestie about Epic: The Musical

Me: “it’s based on the Odyssey and the story of Odysseus-“

Bestie: “Wait, is that the guy that falls in love with his mom?”

Me, chokes: “N O ! No! That’s Oedipus!”

[yourangle-yuordevil]

Crowley, the Snake of Ithaca when he was just… Bildad from Ithaca 🐐 He stole one (1) goat from all his different neighbors so that they'd think it would have been eaten by wolves (if only one is missing is not such a big deal, right?), and it worked! He ended up having one of the biggest herds of goats for free. Athena was like… damn bitch, that was smart. Blessed 👌✨

[morpheus-somnium]

reading the iliad is like

who is echepolus? who is agenor? who is peirous?

hi odysseus!! hi achilles!!

who is phegeus? who is eurypylus? who is menesthes?

diomedes!! menelaus <33

who is ttepolemus? who is alcandrus? who is opheltius? who is-

[hypewinter]

Hal bent down as the little girl approached him. Even then, he still managed to tower over her with how small she was.

"Hey there little lady," he said. "Anything I can help you with this fine evening?"

The little girl looked at him anxiously, fiddling with her hands. Ok so not a nervous fan. Hal immediately switched to serious mode, scanning the crowd for anyone who could be her parents. He didn't see anyone running up to the two of them or even so much as keeping a watchful eye from a distance.

"Is something the matter?" Hal questioned, making sure to keep his voice even and calm.

The girl continued fidgeting, her big blue eyes scanning from side to side. Finally she spoke. "You wiff da space po-eece yes? Not da am-ear-ree-ca one?"

Hal smiled at the girl. "Yes, I'm with the space police." Honestly that was oversimplifying the Corps a little but he had long since gotten to citizens calling him a space cop.

The girl offered up a small nervous smile of her own. "So you won't tell da gov-ment what I tell you wight?"

Hal was on high alert now. Just what was this little girl trying to tell him? "I won't tell. I promise," he said after a second.

The girl broke into a big smile at this. "Really? Dis way den." She started tugging Hal along and he began to follow.

"Where exactly are we going?" he asked.

"You see," was all she replied.

Hal was led down a couple different alleyways and was beginning to think he was walking into a trap when they reached an abandoned building. The girl dashed in and up the old rusted stairs, with Hal following closely behind her.

If this really is a trap, I'll never hear the end of it from Batman, he thought morbidly as he cleared the last step. Instead of finding himself facing an ambush however, he saw a boy curled up on an old mattress. The girl was already by his side as Hal approached.

"Don wowee Danny, I got help. Like I said I would," he caught the little girl whispering as he knelt down next to the boy. He had to have been older than the girl. Three years older maybe? Yet he was still so small. Hal took sight of his condition. He was in pain. That much was certain by his little face scrunched up in agony and his quiet moans. He was also sweating profusely. His raven black hair sticking to his forehead. Fever maybe?

Hal continued his observations as he scanned down the boy's body until he got to his stomach. The boy was clutching it and Hal could make out blood bleeding through from underneath. Oh no.

He quickly yet carefully removed the boy's arm to get a better look at the wound. The kid let out a groan as his arm was peeled away. Hal couldn't help but thank Oa for all his training that helped prevent him from letting out a gasp.

The boy's chest was covered in blood. Dark red mixed with flecks of green soaked through his shirt and there were bandages that had been amateurishly tied around the wound.

"How did this happen?" Hal asked, turning back to the girl. He did his best to keep his tone as gentle as possible.

Her smile was gone now, and her eyes welled up with tears. "He pwotected me," she said. "Dey wanted to huwrt us. Dey shot at us. Danny pwotected me."

Anger boiled within Hal. Who would shoot at these children? They were only little kids. If what the girl had said earlier was anything to go off of, the answer had something to do with the government. He would have to take care of that later though. For now, this boy needed medical attention.

"Let's get Danny to a hospital," Hal said resolutely, as he got up.

"No!" the little girl screeched. "No has-pee-tail. Too dan-er-us!"

"But he needs-" Hal started but then he met the girl's eyes. There was abject fear in them. As if going to the hospital would be a death sentence for both children. Where else were they supposed to go though? The boy- Danny needed medical attention stat. That much was certain.

Hal paused. There was one place. He sighed. Batman was going to kill him for this.

"Okay okay. No hospital. But what about space?"

"Space?" the girl repeated.

Hal nodded.

The little girl smiled. "Danny lobes space!"

"Well then. That's perfect."

Hal constructed a new bed for the boy, carefully easing him onto it before putting a protective dome around both children. The little girl giggled as he lifted them up. He then turned to the wall where he created a giant hammer to knock it down. Then they were off. Flying higher and higher, towards the atmosphere. As the Watchtower got closer in sight, Hal couldn't help but groan. Taking civilians to the Watchtower? Oh yeah, Batman was definitely going to kill him.