#understanding greek myths

[mask131]

I am growing more and more tired of seeing bad Greek mythology posts... But I can’t escape them and due to the popularity of the subject they’ll probably keep existing for a long time X)

So here is my five main points : the main points that make a Greek myth post “bad” (as in misinterpreting, misrepresenting, misjudging Greek mythology) ; but also the main points one can work on to gain a better handling on Greek mythology, the main points one can use to make better posts, the main points one needs to work on if they want to explore Greek myth.

1) Do not confuse Greek mythology and Roman mythology. Despite the lie everybody tells you that “Roman gods are just Greek gods by another name”, NO! That’s only good when a teacher tells that to a class of middle-schoolers. But we know better. That’s two different world eras, two different cultures, two different religions - two different pantheons, who happen to have lot of similarities (due to one copying the other) but also a lot of differences (Roman gods did exist in a very different set of incarnations before they were reshaped to imitate the Greek gods - and they later added so many new gods not present in the Greek world). 

2) Do not forget that there is a difference between Greek mythology and Greek religion. The legends and myths of Greek mythology were shaped by literary and poetic works, and in them the gods are given a very human behavior, with flaws, and family drama, and it is all a question of telling stories. In Greek religion, the gods are perfect omniscient omnipotent super-beings and forces of nature always good and always right. That’s a bit of a caricatural description, but there is a reason why priests of the Greek religion though some Greek literary works depicting the gods were blasphemous.

3) Do not ignore the chronology. Always try to look at the sources you take a myth from, at the dates the texts were written, and by who. There is a huge difference between the “very old” Greek literary texts, like Hesiod and Homer back in the “Old Greece”, and the very late writers born in a Greek world heavily influenced (or under domination by) other cultures and nations (the Dionysiaka of Nonnos). Because you should remember that while the older and more ancient texts were just dealing with myths, legends and beliefs still very vivid and alive, the later texts often reconstructed or invented entire things based mostly on what we would call today “folkloric research” about things forgotten by “modern” Greeks, on reactions to famous literary works, or on a pure desire to make a new, interesting work in front of a long and heavy heritage.

4) Talking about Homer and Hesiod: do not forget that Greek mythology is not unified. It is a series of numerous traditions and variations spanning through millenia. The better example of that is Homer and Hesiod. Everybody knows that these two were the fundations of Greek mythology as we know today, the fathers (or grandfathers) of Ancient Greek literature, the leviathans and behemoths of Greek culture. But people tend to ignore that these two presented different versions of the Greek mythology, different versions and incarnations of the gods with two different genealogies, characterizations and chronologies - to the point that their work blatantly contradict each other by moment. One character I talked about previously was Eris: the Homeric Eris is the sister of Ares (and thus daughter of Zeus and Hera) ; the Hesiodic Eris is one of the numerous negative entities born out of Nyx before Zeus was even born - and thus a sister of entities such as Hypnos and Thanatos. This is an IMPORTANT difference, explained by the fact that these two writers took from two different traditions.  Same way with each Greek city, which had its own variation of the mythology: each city had its own favorite god, its own local heroes, and as a result each city told a version of the myth where their favorite “shined” much better. If we have such a good point of view of Athena today, it is because Athens (her city) became THE major cultural power and political influence, resulting in the Athenian versions of the myths spreading everywhere. It is a bit similar (kind of stretch but still) to how the United-States became so influential people sometimes know better American retellings of famous stories rather than other versions. 

5) One cannot fully understand Greek myths and legends without understanding Greek society. It is very important to understand Ancient Greek society because despite how “simple” it might seem at first, the truth is that it is a very alien society to us with a lot of things not obvious AT ALL. The most famous example: the myth of Hades and Persephone. How many people ignored the fact that in Ancient Greek society, the only thing you need to make a marriage legal and justified and official is the authorization of the father? That girls are technically “objects” belonging to their father and that their mother had no right or power when it came to marrying them, and that marriages were all about just transmitting the ownership of the girl from a father to a husband. It is not at all obvious for us in modern days, but it is something much needed to understand the complexity and depth of the Hades and Persephone myth. Historical and social context is NEEDED.

There’s probably more to point out, but when it comes to broad generalization, this is the best I can do for now.

[thesteamhunk]

“Oh we need more male S/A victim rep!” You guys can’t even handle Odysseus without insisting that him being trapped in a cave until he agreed to sleep with a woman or being put under a spell and coerced while under the spell was still him consenting fully shut the fuck up.

[gingermintpepper]

In my Zeus bag today so I'm just gonna put it out there that exactly none of the great Ancient Greek warrior-heroes stayed loyal and faithful and completely monogamous and yet none of them have their greatness questioned nor do we question why they had the cultural prominence that they did and still do.

Jason, the brilliant leader of the Argo, got cold feet when it came to Medea - already put off by some of her magic and then exiled from his birthland because of her political ploys, he took Creusa to bed and fully intended on marrying her despite not properly dissolving things with Medea.

Theseus was a fierce warrior and an incredibly talented king but he had a horrible temper and was almost fatally weak to women. This is the man who got imprisoned in the Underworld for trying to get a friend laid, the man who started the whole Attic War because he couldn't keep his legs closed.

And we cannot at all forget Heracles for whom a not inconsiderable amount of his joy in life was loving people then losing the people around him that he loved. Wives, children, serving boys, mentors, Heracles had a list of lovers - male and female - long enough to rival some gods and even after completing his labours and coming down to the end of his life, he did not have one wife but three.

And y'know what, just because he's a cultural darling, I'll put Achilles up here too because that man was a Theseus type where he was fantastic at the thing he was born to do (that is, fight whereas Theseus' was to rule) but that was not enough to eclipse his horrid temper and his weakness to young pretty things. This is the man that killed two of Apollo's sons because they wouldn't let him hit - Tenes because he refused to let Achilles have his sister and Troilus who refused Achilles so vehemently that he ran into Apollo's temple to avoid him and still couldn't escape.

All four of these men are still celebrated as great heroes and men. All four of these men are given the dignity of nuance, of having their flaws treated as just that, flaws which enrich their character and can be used to discuss the wider cultural point of what truly makes a hero heroic. All four of these men still have their legacies respected.

Why can that same mindset not be applied to Zeus? Zeus, who was a warrior-king raised in seclusion apart from his family. Zeus who must have learned to embrace the violence of thunder for every time he cried as a babe, the Corybantes would bang their shields to hide the sound. Zeus learned to be great because being good would not see the universe's affairs in its order.

The wonderful thing about sympathy is that we never run out of it. There's no rule stopping us from being sympathetic to multiple plights at once, there's no law that necessitate things always exist on the good-evil binary. Yes, Zeus sentenced Prometheus to sufferation in Tartarus for what (to us) seems like a cruel reason. Prometheus only wanted to help humans! But when you think about Prometheus' actions from a king's perspective, the narrative is completely different: Prometheus stole divine knowledge and gifted it to humans after Zeus explicitly told him not to. And this was after Prometheus cheated all the gods out of a huge portion of wealth by having humans keep the best part of a sacrifice's meat while the gods must delight themselves with bones, fat and skin. Yes, Zeus gave Persephone away to Hades without consulting Demeter but what king consults a woman who is not his wife about the arrangement of his daughter's marriage to another king? Yes, Zeus breaks the marriage vows he set with Hera despite his love of her but what is the Master of Fate if not its staunchest slave?

The nuance is there. Even in his most bizarre actions, the nuance and logic and reason is there. The Ancient Greeks weren't a daft people, they worshipped Zeus as their primary god for a reason and they did not associate him with half the vices modern audiences take issue with. Zeus was a father, a visitor, a protector, a fair judge of character, a guide for the lost, the arbiter of revenge for those that had been wronged, a pillar of strength for those who needed it and a shield to protect those who made their home among the biting snakes. His children were reflections of him, extensions of his will who acted both as his mercy and as his retribution, his brothers and sisters deferred to him because he was wise as well as powerful. Zeus didn't become king by accident and it is a damn shame he does not get more respect.

[theoihalioistuff]

The ways Zeus is characterised in ancient sources is ~ fascinating ~ to me.

The overbearing patriarch of the Iliad who keeps his godly family in check with constant threats of abuse and domestic violence. The conciliatory diplomat of the Odyssey, acquiescent to the desires and honours of his fellow deities. The ideal king of the Theogony, commonly elected, virtuous alloter of good and evil. The frightened tyrant, the cruel tormentor of Prometheus Bound. The all-encompassing orphic entity, who swallowed down and brought forth and is the entirety of the cosmos. The enigmatic, ambivalent, and sometimes undignified figure who refuses to appear on stage. The embodiment of righteousness, of majesty, the ultimate good, the promoter and dispenser of justice, the adulterer, the rapist, the upholder of oaths who perjures himself in the name of "love".

Above all the mastermind, the constant plotter, whose plan and will [Διὸς βουλή] permeate greek literature from epic to philosophy, whether it be synonymous with fate or not.

This is why I generally dislike simplistic takes on him. Sure, almost any way you choose to characterise him will probably have a sourced basis, his multifaceted "identity" almost guarantees it. But the massive loss of complexity is so disappointing imo.

[my-name-is-apollo]

Why is Hera so hostile to Leto in a manner that she isn't with the other lovers of Zeus? I can't think of any other woman who was targeted so much by Hera. One could say she didn't want Leto to give birth because her children would be a competition to Hera's children, but why bother her even after she had already given birth? Is it because Leto herself is also a threat to Hera?

Sort of I guess?

I don't think Leto would ever be a threat to Hera's role as the queen of the gods but Hera might see her as a competitor for Zeus' affection, even though I think Zeus would not marry someone else and replace Hera.

The twins are definitely a big reason why Hera begrudged Leto - it is outright stated in the Callimachus Hymn to Delos that the reason Hera especially targeted Leto was because she was told that Apollo would be dearer to Zeus than Ares is. Zeus is very proud of Artemis as well. As he himself puts it, he doesn't mind facing Hera's wrath for children like her.

But the continued hatred even after the birth of the twins (like sending Tityus to rape Leto) could have been for different reasons. This wasn't like one of those affairs Zeus would have with mortal women where he'd leave them behind once the child is conceived. Neither could Hera, despite her many attempts, get rid of Leto like she did with the other lovers. Not only did Leto give Zeus children that he loves dearly, she also stayed on Olympus despite Hera's hatred towards her (which isn't directed to any of Zeus' other divine mistresses, btw). It might have also been because Leto herself is dear to Zeus, if the way she's treated on Olympus is any proof. In the Homeric hymn to Apollo, Leto stands next to Zeus - in the Olympian assembly - to welcome their son. Hera is completely absent from the scene, as if Leto had taken her place even if temporarily. Now you could say this is because Apollo himself is such a powerful and glorious son in a way that no other son of Zeus is, so of course Leto would get such an honor (the hymn itself presents it this way).

But here's another instance - in the Iliad, when Hera goes to seduce Zeus, he is obviously very smitten but before getting into the action, he lists some of his lovers (I believe these were his favorite lovers, as a lot of others are not mentioned):

"for never has such desire for goddess or mortal woman so gripped and overwhelmed my heart, not even when I was seized by love for Ixion’s wife, who gave birth to Peirithous the gods’ rival in wisdom; or for Acrisius’ daughter, slim-ankled Danaë, who bore Perseus, greatest of warriors; or for the far-famed daughter of Phoenix, who gave me Minos and godlike Rhadamanthus; or for Semele mother of Dionysus, who brings men joy; or for Alcmene at Thebes, whose son was lion-hearted Heracles; or for Demeter of the lovely tresses; or for glorious Leto; or even for you yourself, as this love and sweet desire for you grips me now.’ (Book 14, trans. A. T. Murray)

Notice how when talking about most of them, he also mentions the children they bore to him but when Demeter and Leto are mentioned, he doesn't bring up their children at all despite them being some of the most accomplished kids of his. What's more, he takes Leto's name just before Hera's. I mean, this is an interpretation but it looks like not only did Zeus love Leto the most out of all his mistresses - giving her a place second to that of his wife, but also his love for her wasn't necessarily only because she gave him two amazing children.

Nonnus does something similar in the Dionysiaca (but this time Zeus is enamored with Persephone instead of Hera) but more notably, when Typhoeus attacks Olympus and Zeus is discouraged, Nike takes the form of Leto to encourage him and it's pretty telling of what Leto meant to Zeus.

One interesting similarity between Hera and Leto is that they both had a giant try to rape them. Porphyrion tried to violate Hera (Zeus inspired him to do this) and Tityus tried to violate Leto (upon Hera's order). Though both of them were killed, only Tityus got an eternal punishment in Tartarus of having his liver/heart eaten out by vultures so Zeus seems to have taken a greater offense at Tityus trying to assault Leto.

Again, I don't think Zeus would ever take anyone other than Hera as his permanent wife - she is irreplaceable to him. There's an entire myth about Hera leaving him and Zeus winning her back. Their relationship is obviously complex and involves all kinds of emotions including love and hate. But Leto is continually dear to him as well and that's something Hera can't do much about.

[themoonking]

the book trend that needs to be left in the dust for the new year is greek mythology retellings. i am so sick and tired of "retellings" of greek (or roman, but mainly greek) mythology from authors that clearly have a very surface level pop cultural understanding of the myth(s) they're adapting and the culture(s) they're depicting. especially the many that market themselves as "feminist retellings" where the "feminism" is basically just "men bad sometimes", and especially when they're "feminist retellings" that take some of the few mythological women who get happy endings and take it away from them for the sake of saying "men bad sometimes". it's all so shallow and they exploded this year and i'm sick of it.

[thaliasthunder]

drawing achilles with short hair should be fucking illegal.

[0ghostwatcher]

If Odysseus have 100 fans I'm one of them,if Odysseus have 10 fans I'm one of them,if Odysseus have 5 fans I'm one of them,if Odysseus have no fan then I'm dead,If the world is agaist Odysseus then I'm against the world-

[thingsphoenix21]

Athena: Hera can I ask you a question why do you always throw such a fit of rage when Zeus... Like he's not gonna change. Hera:I was taught that keeping quiet kept the peace. Until I realized who's peace is it keeping? His? No fucking way.

[sukibenders]

Is it just me or does the way Hera is portrayed in the PJO/HOO series feel out of touch? By that I mean, while it plays into the idea of Hera's relationship with her husband's children and ideals of family, it seems like Rick just took that and ran with it without actually wanting to dive into those aspects and develop them more (ngl, his writing for his female characters, especially the goddesses, could use some work even if I do enjoy them). The reason Hera is the way she is with her husband's children is because she can't punish him [Zeus] directly due to him being more powerful (and the last time she turned against didn't he literally hang her from the sky)? And even while I'm not justifying her actions, there's a method to them, so why would she go after other random demigods like Percy and Annabeth? Or at least in a way that was written better than her falling into a trope (I enjoy this series with my heart, but the criticism about how the gods are written holds some value that shouldn't just be ignored either). Like, I don't know, it just feels like there was more that could've been done with her character instead of just immediately writing her off as the cruel, cold-hearted, evil stepmother (a trope that's overplayed, especially when not even bothering to give them any depth). I could write ideas, but then we'd be here all day.

[olivsie]

Something I like about epic the musical is that it Gives it's changes to the original text an actual Purpose

( The first couple paragraphs are basically a rant regarding retellings. If you only want to hear about epic Skip to paragraph 4)

1. I am a bit annoyed by the lack of. Understanding as to why RETELLINGS aren't the most historicaly accurate things in the world. Sorry to break this to you, but that's both just how they work and I would guess how they reach success. Ancient Greece is a much different culture than our own, And most of us would be terrified to actually live back then. When you are Trying to create content That is based on ancient Greece And you want it to be successful/ At least reach a wide, and notably, MODERN audience. You're likely going to have to take some creative liberty And change a few things. Don't get me wrong, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LIKE RETELLINGS KNOWING THAT FACT ( Me personally, I'm not the biggest fan of Miller's novels Even though I do like epic) BUT IT IS SOMETHING TO BE AWARE OF. And because of that I don't think I would ever expect a retelling to be perfectly accurate And I don't. I had interest in mythology LONG before epic the musical But I didn't actually read the Odyssey until getting into epic. I did not expect it To be just like the musical, I knew Odysseus was going to be much more of an asshole, along with other characters. The odyssey and epic are different pieces of media to me And I am not less of a mythology nerd for liking epic ( Though I will admit that sometimes I take tiny little fun facts of mythology And like to think of them in the context of epic, but that's just for fun.)

2. The Only time being a fan of retellings is wrong as if you genuinely believe they are perfectly accurate And refuse to listen to anything else ( Which has definitely happened, And mythology nerds have the right to be annoyed at that)

3. Some people only like to consume real mythology media, Others like both real mythology and retellings, Others only like to engage with retellings (I would hope they have the self-awareness to know It's not real mythology, From what I've seen some do and some don't, Unfortunately)

4. Ok. now on to what the title of this long ass rant says

I like that epic the musical Retells the story, Not only to both cater to modern audience But Also with its OWN purpose of man versus monster.

Obviously, this is not the point of the original text. Mythos Odysseus does not give a single fuck About the stuff that epic odysseus does. I don't know why the creator Decided to rewrite it this way, (If he's ever said why let me know) But I would assume he wanted to make something about the oddessy And this was simply a very creative way to Translate that for modern audience.

I like this because, yes, holy damn. It does have changes from the original text. But it's not JUST changing it. It's changing it with a purpose

It feels reminiscent of some kind of Dramatic play. the way that epic characterizes.

Polites' kind nature is Representative of the Concept of being merciful Represented in his lines such as " This life is amazing when you greet it with open arms" /"There is so much guilt inside your heart, So why not replace it?"

While in contrast you have eurylochus with more ruthlessness and cautious nature, this is Found in some of his lines such as "You rely on wit, and people die on it" /"we don't know what's ahead" / "I say we strike first. We don't have time to waste so lets raid the place-" /"Let's just cut our losses, You and I and let's run"

And then you have Odysseus, the man/monster. The first act of this Musical is his internal struggle With what He should be On that scale. And the other characters Represent this struggle in the song monster

" Is the cyclops struck with gilt when he kills, is he up in the middle of the night? Or does he end my men to avenge his friend and then Sleep knowing he has done him right?

When the witch turns men to pigs to protect her nymphs, is she going insane? Or did she learn to be colder when she got older and now she saves them the pain?

When a God comes down and makes a Fleet drown Is he scared that he's doing something wrong? Or does he keep us in check So we must respect him and now no one dares to piss him off"

He then Applies this to himself

" Does a soldier use a wooden horse to kill sleeping trojans cause he is vile? Or does he throw away his remorse and save more lives with guile?"

And this marks his turning point of deciding that Ruthlessness It's ultimately worth it if it means Getting home, as aeolus says "The end Always justifies the means"

It's in my opinion, a very creative way to go about retelling a myth. Is it accurate? Absolutely not. For example, circe (From what we know) is not protecting When she turns men into pigs, For all we know, she could just do it because Shits and giggles.

Her character and most others in epic is changed from the original. But it's not ONLY changing for the sake of apeling to the modern Western audience and being successful like Many other retellings. It is also and mainly changing for the sake of influencing the plot that Jorge Rivera herrans crafted For the sake of Retelling epic. It is creative and I enjoy it despite knowing it's not accurate.

[pelideswhore]

petition to change “written by a woman” into “written by euripides”

[appolinyou]

Being Ares is being kidnapped at a very young age because of protecting your family when no one else was going to fight for their well-being, and then enduring the sadistic captivity of your own cousins, not having much help, just your family's concerns about being away for too long. And, having earned the Main fear of his older relatives (claustrophobia), to be ridiculed by them and other brothers and sisters for this, when someone deigned to pay attention to the fact that he did not return from an operation to protect common interests

Abandoned, forgotten, abandoned

[gingermintpepper]

One of my biggest pet peeves is the assumption that something has to be sad for it to be tragic.

I've always been a big believer of the 'Apollo has an awful love life'/'Apollo is plain unlucky with love' line of thinking but it does bother me that the general reasoning for that statement is given to the concept of 'Apollo is somehow undesireable and thus rejected' (Cassandra/Daphne/Marpessa) or 'his lovers die young and thus their love is unfulfilled' (Cyparissus/Hyacinthus/Coronis). I personally think that's a very unfortunate way of looking at things - not only because it neglects the many perfectly cordial entanglements and affairs Apollo has had, both mortal and divine - but because it presents a very shallow interpretation of the concepts of love and loss and how loss affects people.

Apollo can still grieve lovers that have a long, healthy life. The inherent tragedy of an immortal who knows his lovers and children will die and cannot stop it does not stop being tragic simply because those lovers and children live long, fulfilled lives. The inherent tragedy of loss does not stop being tragic simply because someone knows better than to mourn something that was always going to end.

What is tragic is not that Apollo loves and loses but that loss itself follows him. Apollo does not love with the distance of an immortal, he does not have affairs and then leaves never to listen to their prayers again. He does not have offspring and then abandon them to their trials only to appear when it is time to lead them to their destinies. He raises his young, he protects the mothers of his children, he blesses the households that have his favour and multiplies their flocks that they may never go hungry. He educates his sons, he adorns his daughters and even in wrath he is quick to come to his senses and regret the punishments he doles out.

Apollo loves. And like mortals, there will always be some part of him that wishes to protect the objects of his affections. Apollo, however, is also an emissary of Fate. He knows that the fate of all mortal things is death. He knows that to love a mortal is to accept that eventually he will have to bury them. There is no illusion of forever, there is no fantasy where he fights against the nature of living things and shields his beloveds from death. Apollo loves and because of that love, he also accepts.

And that, while beautiful, is also tragic.

[irate-iguana]

Help.

[sombrathedragon]

Hey guys new Seawing ocs dropping

To be honest I made these little pals as a joke but now I wanna keep them

Feel free to draw them or get inspired by them !! :3