#(its up to you if you want it to be between s3-4 or post s4 btw)

[spcckystcries-a]

@inspotlight asked: 🎁 ( nini + steve )

( spotify wrapped has arrived )

5. you're on your own kid by taylor swift

steve looks around from his spot next to nini and lets out a little sigh. "i didn't choose this town." is said with a gesture to the area around them, and it might seem silly to say, after all he's barely nineteen. it's safe to assume he didn't make the conscious choice to live there, but god did he wish he could've. or, at least somehow had known - before he was even born -, the secrets their town contains. "i dream of getting out, there's just ... some ... who could make me stay." robin. the kids. joyce. hopper. honestly, even nancy and jonathan. but that doesn't mean he doesn't think about what it'd be like to be free of this place. far away from monsters and things that lurk in the shadows. but even if he did get out, he doesn't think he'd ever really be free.

[shoe-the-dude]

El deserves better

okay so this post may seem a bit ranty but i don't really care. do people that ship mileven, hate el? genuine question btw. because i don't understand how people can look at a relationship where both people are unhappy in it, and say that this is the relationship that should be endgame. disregarding all the other byler proof out there, the fact that mike and el aren't happy in their relationship should be enough of a reason for the audience to not support them.

i could go on and on about what a well-written character mike is and about how his story is one of the best representations of coming of age and accepting oneself, but let's focus on el's side of the relationship.

el comes from a horrible background where she wasn't given the opportunity to find herself and grow as her own individual person. we see that when el is confined to a place or a standard, she isn't happy. we see this in s1 with brenner and how his experiments and isolation impacted her negatively. we see this with hopper in s2 as well. el wants to go into the world and find herself, but she's confined to hopper's cabin. she herself even draws a comparison between both of their methods of housing her.

i'll admit, before i watched s3, i also was a mileven shipper. but during s3, i started to feel like their relationship had really taken a nosedive. s3 is the season that directly tells the audience why mike and el aren't a good couple. like brenner and hopper were caging her in the earlier seasons, mike, metaphorically, cages el during their relationship.

el never got to discover who she was besides being a girl with powers and being mike's girlfriend. she never got to be a normal girl who got to do normal things. when she decides she doesn't need mike and ultimately dumps him, she gains a whole new wardrobe, discovers fun things she likes to do, her own type in boys, and directly tells the audience that "mike is her first boyfriend".

with their romantic relationship out of the picture, el sees a future where she gets to make the call. when i watched season 3, i promptly went back to s1 and s2 and discovered the caging parallels. season 3's purpose was to make the audience skeptical of mileven and of how happy mike and el are in their relationship.

season 4 was the nail in the coffin for me. s4 immediately establishes that mike can't bring himself to tell el that he loves her, and while this has to do with his conflicting feelings towards will, it makes el unhappy. now i understand that every relationship has its ups and downs and mike and el could be just going through a rough patch. but it is the way mike and el handle these issues that emphasizes how toxic their relationship is. el tries to communicate with mike, then mike deflects blame.

el feels like she has to lie to mike, and that mike can't love or appreciate her if he sees her at her lowest. and she's absolutely right; he can't.

oh look! another parallel! both brenner and mike make her feel like a monster when she acts out, and el recognizes it. mike in this moment triggers her old PTSD with brenner. yeah, totally very healthy. at the end of s4, el has read through the lines of mike's speech and she doesn't believe in it. she actively avoids mike and walks past him in the ending shot, literally closing the door on him. you don't need to be a byler shipper to see how bad mike and el's relationship is. i want what's best for my girl el, and i probably would have been a mileven shipper if their relationship was built on love instead of lies. the duffers are able to write compelling, straight couples, like lumax, jancy, and jopper. el has shown time and time again that with mike attached to her romantically, she isn't happy. the only way those two could ever be happy, is if they both embrace who they truly are, which is exactly what we see in the s5 trailer.

el deserves better than what mike can give her. mike can't love her like he loves will. el can't be what mike needs because she would have to hide her true self. they both would be miserable.

[beevean]

Anyway this is where you feel the difference between Ellis and the Deats bros

Ellis didn't give a shit about the franchise, so his changes felt like snobbish "I can do better than this mess of pixels" attitude, he pretty much even admitted it

But the Deats have indeed played the games, they're long time fans, they DO know the lore....but they're fanboys about it, they have a faulty read on things and blatant biases, some of the changes they make are due to them misunderstanding the point. They know Alucard is a man between two races but put the emphasis on the wrong one because vampires are cool I guess. They know Richter should feel conflicted about the consequences of him being a Belmont, but they've lost themselves too much on making the Belmonts "funny himbos" that are easily liked by social media for that to really matter, not to mention that their fanboying for Alucard had its own consequences on the matter

Pretty much, yes. You know I have zero respect for Ellis as a professional and as a person, but I will give it to him that he's very honest. He never once cared to approach the games more than skimming the wiki articles, and he's not ashamed of admitting it. He wanted to write his own story, with elements that he liked, even if they didn't fit the setting in the slightest. Not surprisingly, S3 and 4 were the seasons where he was free of the yoke of the original plot, and it's when the show went completely off the rails in terms of character focus, story, setting and morals.

It is much more frustrating to see the Deats brothers swear and double swear that they're game fans and they care about wanting to respect them. I know they played them. I know that Adam Deats worked on the PoR official guide. They have creed. But I just don't see this respect in the proper story bar some superficial references - I don't care if y'all gave Juste the obscure Aurora Ring, if you still allowed Clivey Brades to write him completely out of character compared to what we can glimpse from HoD and then you shoved him in the role of Maria's babysitter, instead of allowing him to build a connection with his own Belmont grandson!

Speaking of Alucard, you can also tell the difference between the two shows through him. Sure, the dude was given the big emotional climax of S2 while Trevor went to fuck himself, but Ellis very clearly didn't know or care about him afterwards. After all, Alucard went to sleep post-CV3, so he had no frame of reference anymore. So, his plotline in S3 is the most egregious waste of time in a season still remembered as feeling like filler: Ellis quite plainly cared more about Isaac, through which he could expose his intellectualist and misanthropic views, and the Styrian storyline in general, because ooga booga dommy mommy fetish. And S4 just barely fixed matters: the most I remember about Alucard in that season is his gaudy, god awful outfit, but he... doesn't really do much, does he? He gets a new gf to fix his PTSD, and that's about it. It says a lot that the real climax of that season, the equivalent of Alucard vs. Dracula, feels to be the end of the Styrian story, Isaac vs. Carmilla, while Death is given to Trevor as some sort of consolation prize.

But in Nocturne, ohhh boy. The Deats knew full well that the viewers wouldn't give a single solitary shit about the new cast unless they could project the beloved Trephacard dynamic, and in fact, what is the most memorable moment of S1? (aside from WHEN I'M LAID) Alucard saving the stupid Belmont's ass at the very last minute! And S2 definitely gave him quite a lot of screentime - sure, he was ultimately useless to the story because it had the focus of a goldfish on drugs and tried to juggle too many characters and ideas, but his attitude was not of a secondary character :^) the way he carried himself around, alternating between smug and Deep, it's like the writing was well aware that he was the main attraction.

Meanwhile, Richter kept rotting, only sometimes piping up pretending the story cares about his issues and his legacy. The Deats keep insisting they respect him as a character and want to honor his arc and I will never forgive Sam for dredging up his dead father to shield himself against the valid criticism that S1 did not treat the character well... but the show is still not about him. S1 was about Annette, and S2 was about Drolta. In the same vein that NFCV was not about Trevor except from the very beginning and the very end.

Ellis doesn't care about anything except his own genius. The Deats mainly care about appeasing the fanbase - see also how Drolta skyrocketed in importance after she became a fanfavorite. I think that's the main difference between the two.

[crunchycrystals]

i have SO many hsmtmts questions, hopefully it's okay that i'm asking all these

do you have a favorite ship???

how would you rank the seasons??

who's your favorite character??? who's your least favorite (if you have one)???

what's your top 5/top 10 songs (whichever amount you feel like doing)??

are there any songs you don't like???

what's your favorite production that was done in the show?? is there one that you didn't like??

is there a canon relationship you don't like???

do you have any unpopular opinions about the show??? or any of the characters???

which season has your favorite soundtrack??? is there a least favorite???

you can ask me some questions too if you want :)) i've been looking for more ppl that like this show :))

totally fine i love getting asks !!!!!!! this may not be what you're looking for though bc my feelings on this show are deeply deeply deeply conflicted this is gonna be practically an essay.

despite it all i am obsessed w rini. childhood friends to lovers????????? exes to lovers??????????? the whole idea of just for a moment????? i'm a sucker for when the lines blur between feelings and they hit THREE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THAT?????? ive never been over them. it probably makes more sense for ricky's character with letting go and all that and nini not wanting to be held down but. they developed them too well in s1 i fell too hard in love with them. i wonder a lot like if there was a way to keep their relationship andi think there is, the writers just didn't execute it to its fullest. and if they wanted me to ship someone else they didn't do a good job lol they made the rini dynamic too compelling to me just for a moment destroys me every time

2. my season ranking is exactly the same as the release order HJSFDGHJKDSL. ill keep my thoughts on the seasons brief bc if i give all of my thoughts this post will be 700 words long. s1 is so fun with a manageable cast, s2 has some really great bits but suffers from circumstance (pandemic mainly), s3 was also bad circumstance in a way (olivia leaving) but i think they just made bad decision at this point things that were easily avoidable, and i never watched s4 bc everything i heard ab it made me more mad (one exception being ashyln's storyline sounding kinda interesting). also during the s3 finale i got so pissed i literally walked out of the room GHDJSFJGHDS so yeah i didnt watch s4

3. yk i havent really thought ab this but i think it might be nini. i really love olivia's music and it means a lot to me as a south east asian person to see rep like that on tv. ashyln's also pretty great though. least favorite???? probably one of the new kids in s2 from the rival school i truly did not give a shit ab them if im being real. i dont care much for the new characters (though jet and maddox are fun) i am here for my original theater kid friends

4. im interpreting this as original songs so here we go in no order: just for a moment, wondering, i think i kinda you know, rose song, let you go. my rini lover is really showing in this lol but i havent listened to a lot of them in a while so my opinions will prob change if i listen to it again

5. oooooh good question. i cant think of an original song i dislike rn so as a cop out im just gonna say scream lol. i dont blame josh for that bc like why did the director allow that take for the final scream to be used. who allowed the sound mixing to be exported like that. there was so much that couldve been done to make it even slightly better....... and some of it is josh i wont lie (which makes me think what if they cast someone else as the lead like a callback to s1 w ricky taking troy from ej??? for lack of of better phrasing) just baffling decisions all around

6. FAVORITE ONE WAS HIGH SCHOOL MUSICAL NO CONTEST. rewatched this and i thought it lined up so so so so so well with the story happening to the characters outside the show it was great. my favorite detail has always been the lockers still having the measurements on it bc it just adds to the high school production vibe. i dont think i disliked any of the productions (though tbf. i cannot remember much from the other productions its been a long time) i love live theater and i dont think i could truly hate any of their productions. maybe ill be proven wrong one day but rn i love live performance too much to hate any of them. im a shrek the musical defender

7. oh boy im gonna have to tag for this. i think its perfectly fine if you ship them im not gonna be pissed or anything but im not a rina fan. i fell hard for rini and i thought portwell was cool in s2 and while im open to most ships in this show, i really couldnt get on board w rina. it might have to do w the fact that i experienced s2 lurking on tumblr and a bunch of people were in the rini tag actively bashing the ship (to be fair. not unwarranted bc the story for rini in s2 makes me sad lol) and i just got really annoyed every time i saw someone putting down rini to put rina up. im not immune to this though ive done the same thing in reverse. rina just never gave me the ship spark and when they pushed them together during s3 my blood pressure rose every single week HDSFJGHSD yeah whenever i see a rina thing for s4 i get irrationally mad but thats just bc of the INSANE writing decisions. like why do you writers keep breaking up couples you just decided to pair up its BAFFLING i dont get it

8. not sure if any are unpopular opinions i have bc im pretty out of the fandom. i guess not liking rina is an unpopular opinion????? i remember when rini was the top ship on ao3 so i was genuinely surprised when i checked today to look for more fics and saw that they were top

9. now that i think ab it i think i really like the s2 soundtrack. i obviously love s1 deeply but if i answer s1 for all of this its gonna be boring. but i think olivia's voice sounds really great in s2 specifically and i think about a lot of the covers all the time. favorite covers are home, the climb, and if i can't love her. havent listened to any of these since i saw s2 but i think ab them often bc theyre that good.

re original songs: i think the characters leveled up their songwriting here shout out to let you go and rose song <333 and even when/the best part is pretty basic but i thought it was cute esp bc i play the ukulele and i learned i think i kinda you know after s1.

[voltstone]

A YELLOW DRESS FORGOTTEN | TWDG Retelling (Remastered - 2024) MASTER CONTENT POST

Hello! (And hello again to the TWDG fandom. At least, to anyone who remembers this fic.)

I'm VoltageStone. Still a shit uploader. I'm trying, and yes, this is one of the fics that has been in the works for...way too long, but at the same time..., glad I waited for my writing to get better?

This, quite simply, is my love-letter to the games, and to my Clementine. It's the one story I've wanted to get right, time and time again.

Especially since the comics have come out. Even though I've come to the conclusion that the comics are divorced from the games, because it's only one person's Clementine (and an...interesting interpretation of her at that), the comics did pull me away from the games for a little bit there.

But now I'm back. And I do intend to get to Season 4 this time. To finish this.

It'll take time, but I do feel ready now. I really have wanted to write out my Clementine's story, and have something that I can read back on rather than whatever Skybound's doing.

And honestly? While most of this is a self-indulgence thing, and it's because I'm bleeding my heart out here...

I do want more people to write about their Clementines. Cuz like... Maybe if there's enough people doing it, writing about their experiences, and not just the character as a whole... We'd get more enrichment from TWDG as a whole.

For anyone who wants to add on or talk about this, or follow along without having to subscribe to me, this fic will have its own tag (#aydf fic). So. If you're interested in just this, that'll be the place. :D

Anyway, now, for this specific update, this is a master post like the one I did for LYCOS (Wenclair fic). This isn't marked dead dove, but it is still a very...gritty fic. And it has a lot of very heavy themes.

It's a dark fic for different reasons, but a lot of the same. AYDF is what got me into writing gore, body & psychological horror, and the like. That being said, it's...also just a different beast.

Largely because I'm building off of what's in the games, so dead dove doesn't feel as appropriate for this.

Still. Might as well make a post here about its content. Any updates I do will be linked back to this.

So, for those who read this story before, I hope you enjoy, and thanks for sticking around through the years.

To any newcomers, to TWDG or other readers from other fics, I hope you enjoy. :)

-- -- --

Walkers. Muertos. Deadheads. Lurkers... The dead which roamed, they wore many names. Monster was yet another one. Though, Clementine knew most monsters didn't decay. Their hearts still throbbed. Their eyes, still with color. The monsters, still with words to asphyxiate.  Because she was one herself: a monster with fire in her breath, and eyes that burned her own Hell. She drank for her life. She drank to forget.

A thank-you to Telltale, a love-letter to Clementine as a character, and a passion project writing out my Clementine's story. Made by my blood, sweat, tears, and probably also mucous from the tears, but it's sanitized, I promise.

AO3 | FFnet | Wattpad | Quotev | RoyalRoad

Fic Layout:

Ep1 | Between S2 & S3. Ep2-5 | S3. Ep1.5 (Interlude) | S1, Between S1 & S2, Between S2 & S3. Ep6 | Between S2 & S3, Between S3 & S4. Ep7 | Between S3 & S4, S4. Ep8-15 | S4.

General Warnings:

Catharsis, Gore, Extreme/Graphic Violence, Fights, Murder, Horror, Body Horror, Angst, Trauma, a very Cynically Religious Clementine, Raider!Clementine, TWDG retelling (aka, a lot of the dialogue and canon-events will be here, or rewritten), (some, not a lot) Sexual Content (because it's a "growing up" thing not a horny thing, I promise, …and maybe sorta a little bit of how BPD and attachment issues do things), Violentine, a lot of homoeroticism, they are touch starved, Some fairytale symbolism, Louis will be protected and grow tf up.

Mental Health:

Alcoholism, Gambling Addiction, Addiction, Withdrawal, Relapse, Suicide Attempt(s), PTSD, Guilt, Survivor's Guilt, Rehabilitation, Psychosis, Child abuse, Parentification, and how that basically fucks Clementine in the head like a lot, and then A.J too because cycles and trauma, Borderline Personality Disorder, Trauma Trauma Trauma, and you'll never guess, a Clementine who really really really needs help and at least one (1) actual breathing adult in her life.

Oh which reminds me.

Finding guidance in adults who are already very much dead, and please Clementine, would you just bury the corpse?

…okay that's verging on dead dove, but if the game (almost) has an 8-year-old eat a dude's leg, and then a bigger dude get his head smooshed by a salt lick (which tastes gross, I dunno), I think it's still safe.

In Summary:

...okay I may have written a Carver's Clementine by accident bUT it was an ACCIDENT. My hand slipped. She's not evil, just a little demented some days, and bitter on the better ones.

I am half-joking. My hand didn't slip.

She does make the comic's Clementine look like an angel, though. So. There's that.

Anyway, if it's not clear, the tldr is this is my playthrough, and thusly my canon Clementine, just with the story tailored for indulgence and narrative reasons. Cuz. …alcoholism. …and stuff.

Not a great person. Very troubled. But you know. Tis how addiction works.

Hope you enjoy. :) If you see my blood, sweat and tears stained in the writing, no you didn't.

[amtrak12]

Hi, amtrak12! I'm your Bering & Wells gifter this year, and I'd be happy to provide you with a story of a sort that might make your heart sing. I write AU and canon-compliant stuff, though I do tend to avoid full-on tragedy and anything truly explicit--apologies for that, if it's too limiting, but I bet you'd find any attempts I'd make at those to resemble lumps of coal rather than true gifts. In any case, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

OMG I totally feel you on the explicit smut. I, too, should not be trusted to write it! LOL And I think the Bering and Wells fandom gave ourselves enough tragic fics during our great Angst War of 2013 😜 So those restrictions are totally fine with me!

Oh, I'm so excited for this! Let's see...

My general likes:

The S3 yearning during Helena's pokeball era XD I will read anything where Myka sneaks Helena's hologram out late at night to talk to her.

Helena mentoring kids. I hate S4 and I hate Instinct, but I do agree with its premise that Helena is fantastic with kids and would love to play a significant role in a child's life again.

Warehouse artifact shenanigans, especially during inventory. Always a classic.

Dislikes:

Character bashing (though feel free to criticize Myka's dad more than the show did)

Season 4 -- everything except Steve's resurrection is just a big no from me. Though if you want to use Abigail in the fic, you can. I did like her.

Season 5 -- I didn't even bother watching this one. I noped out right before the S4 finale and I don't regret that decision at all.

I am more than happy with an AU future where the warehouse and everyone are magically alive (and Leena never died). I don't even need an explanation for it. 💜 Canon S1-3 settings or even pre-series settings are also good with me.

If you'd like some specific prompts to get you started....

Canon Setting Prompts:

Helena has to work with Pete to help Myka -- could be something as big as Myka being in danger. Could be something as simple and domestic as picking out a birthday gift. Myka has two important people in her life and I, at least, am incapable of thinking about her and Helena without also inevitably thinking about Myka's relationship with Pete. (As completely platonic BROTP, of course. No Myka/Pete romance, either past or present :S But that's probably assumed in a B&W gift exchange.)

Helena's past work with WH12 shows up in small ways -- she recognizes an artifact during inventory, she wrote one of the shelving tags, or they find a report she filled out over a hundred years ago when they're refiling in the archives. Could be angsty because it's S3 and Myka misses her. Could be comforting because Helena's back and every reminder helps her feel like she's home. Could be any tone in between.

Myka having to adjust to having Helena living at the B&B, either in S2 when they're still getting to know each other or in a happy, post-S3 world where Helena's working with them again. Or maybe Myka notes that it isn't an adjustment for her at all because it feels so natural to have Helena living with them. Just domestic introspection outside of the chaos of the job.

AU Setting Prompts:

I'm a huge sucker for soulmate AUs. The tattoo style markings are my favorite premise, but if you have another favorite soulmate set-up, feel free to use that instead. I just think it's neat to explore the impact soulmates would have on the world building and relationships. Are soulmates formed or pre-ordained? How do soulmates work when the other person was born in a completely different era than you?

I know we had a firefighter/paramedic AU series way back in the day, but I wouldn't be mad to see it come back. I've been watching a lot of 9-1-1 lately LOL

Lawyer AUs are also always delicious. The tension that comes out in the courtroom -- HNNG!! There's a reason I have sexual headcanons for Alex Cabot (Law & Order SVU) and every single female defense lawyer and judge she came across ROTFL (And no, this doesn't contradict the no smut agreement, you and I have made, anon. One of my most formative ships was Doctor/Rose. They were heavy on the Unresolved Sexual Tension, and I firmly believe UST should make a comeback in media/fic. It's about the denial, it's about the what if's, the almost's, GUH!)

Hopefully, that gave you enough variety to inspire you without overwhelming you. I will be happy with any length of fic. So if you're the type of writer who thrives on deadlines and/or can write plotty fic in a short time, great. If you're a slower or shorter writer, also great! There seems to be a trend where readers only want 10k+ fics (at least in my current fandom), but I love short stories! I think you can do a lot in just a single scene. So write whatever length you're comfortable with, and feel free to use these ideas as just a starting point. I'll be thrilled to read whatever you come up with :) Thank you so much! 💗

[tankgotstuckinthecircusgate]

hii i wanna hear about your fav barbara momentss

(also hope you feel better soon <3)

ohhh i love this question sm !!! i actually have a lot of them. anyway here's the list in random order:

1. all barbara + montoya scenes in s1. they're so fucked up and i was amazed that there's canonical bisexual character in the show. also in love w Barbara smoking weed in Montoya's apartment. she was so real for this (not for weed but depression) 2. that little dialogue between Oz and Barbara, when Oz shows at Barbara's flat to see Gordon. like "Men 🙄" "Don't i know🤗" THESE LOSERS DESERVED TO BE BESTIESSSSS!!! 3. when she visits her parents and they ask her about Jim and Barbara answers that they're happy. for the love of god MY WOMAN IS B RO K EN!!!! i love her. also i love this strain between her and her parents. i wish we saw more of their interactions 4. of course. of fucking course: barbara's psychotherapy session w lee. GREATEST WLW SCENE EVER FILMED!!!

5. okay there's super fucked up scene i don't even remember episode or season (i think it was s3?) anyway. jim had massive hallucination and there was elevator and barbara was in elevator boy uniform AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I DIDN'T KNEW I NEED IT SO BADDDD. oh my god she looked awesome in this scene. also im in love with barbara being character who leads the mc through his consciousness. my girl was the narrative in this scene upd: i found screenshot of this scene!!! it's s3 ep7. i need to rewatch it. probably download and make edit. idk i love her sm here for no reason

6. scene where barbara shot butch at the end of s3. like this is literally peak of female rage and this is so cool that they show that barbara haven't forgot him for assaulting in s1. such a snake move from her. she was waiting this for so long. and she looked so satisfied w herself there. im prod of u girl🙏 7. everything related to her duo with Edward in s3. look at these sneaky pricks. i loved their duo so much i miss them (ofc i felt sorry for Oswald. but they had such chaotic bi swag it's amazing) "let's make gotham BEG" YASSSSSSSSSSSS YOU GO GIRL!!!

8. SCENE IN THE NARROWS. SCENE IN THE NARROWS. SCENE IN THE NARROWS. IN S4. dear god im eating this scene FOREVER. it makes me feel THINGS. im insane about Lee and Barbara's interaction here. Im insane about Lee here. Im insane about Barbara here. i love their transformation here. both character's and relationship (they almost handled conversation w/o mentioning Jim). also peak of romance. to me. (and kind of. "im a fool to want you" by frank sinatra vibes. to me) and. GREATEST WLW SCENE EVER FILMED N2!!!

9. "Barbara Queen! 🥰" scene. my girl slayed SO HARD. (also it took me to play m2 to understand what "capiche?" means lmao) look. look at her. she's a queen indeed

10. i posted this scene several days ago, anyway. jim visits barbara's club and shots smth, then tabitha raises a gun at him in return. and barbara's annoyed "seriously?" brings me so much joy lmao. she's so done with them

11. her arrival in s4. I LOVEEEEE HER SM IN S4 ITS INSANEEEE. i love everything about her. she's so cold. she looks gorgeus. she's depressed. she's my everything (my pfp speaks for itself lmao😭)

12. and when she visits Oswald in s4. i don't remember what happened in this scene but im talking bout this one:

i loooove how calm she is here. and how sassy oswald is she's observing things. she's calculating. i love her

13. of course. of courrrse: bride scene in s2. not to say that i like her in s2 much buuut. this is a certifed thompkean scene and barbara is obviously having psychotic & obsessive episode here and it's so interesting to watch

14. also i remembered scene in gcpd, i believe it was s2? anyway barbara comes to gcpd and calls jim and asks him "how do i look?" i love her outfit and that she beat up Jim after this. also i see parallels w virus!lee coming at gspd in s3. they're so girlfriends (i need to draw this au where they unite against jim ohgodddd) upd. i found someone's edit with this scene:

15. "this woman isabella. nygma said she was a librarian, right? who kills a librarian, i mean what's the motive?" and then she realizes oswald killed isabella. she looks SO HAPPY with herself. "you kn.. you know them!!! 😦😦😃😃" and i think she thought "omg bestie i've done the same thing to my ex!!!!" back then 16. scene in s5 "honey, im still amazing😌" IM IN LOVVVVVE WITH HER THERE. LIKE. OH MY HER VOICE SOUNDS SOOOOOO LOW AND KINDA HOARSELY. YOU CAN TAKE ME NOW. IM ON MY KNEES OH MY GOD. also she looks so good in red 17. s4: "did you guys ordered thai?" "no" "good, cause i don't have any" *shots everyone in the room* i love her being rough and cold sm ohhh 18. when she's entering arkham in s2 having lana del rey vibes. queen 19. also i love these scenes in s1 when she discovers that selina and ivy was living in her apartment. idk there's something so soft about that 20. "disco vampire haircut" of course. iconic scene 21. "remember me?" when Nygma n Barbara took mayor Aubrey hostage. she's so sassy 22. this certifed thompkean scene. ofc. girl youre not fucking normal

23. and this one from s5 which i still haven't watched BUUUT ughhh THEM. wives.

there's more but im tired lmao. anyway i think i love almost every scene w her (except for s2. idk idk her psychotic episode portrayed a lil bit too cartoonish i think? idk this shit is actually way more scary in real life. also highly sexualized relationships w tabitha. i mean its ok if they had mostly sexual relationship and i aprecciate this as aro but y know. it could be portrayed way mooore elegant and subtle. or rough, doesn't matter) and THANK YOU SO MUCH for this ask. she's my comfort character and it's always nice to think about her😫😫💞💞💥💥 and i hope you're doing well too!!! actually thank you for this ask once again thinking bout her made me feel better lmao 😭😭😭

[anti-benophie]

You asked for theories about the delay of S4, and I have a few thoughts.

I work in film, and I believe the delay is less about the main couple and more about how Netflix operates as a production company.

1) Netflix is notoriously slow at producing new seasons for its shows. This isn’t just for Bridgerton, look at Umbrella Academy, Sex Education, One Piece, and especially Stranger Things. Shonda Rhimes herself has stated that the delay is partly due to Netflix’s slower production pipeline. I believe her because her production company was formed and is used to the "write-next-season-as-we-film" model, which allows for quick producion times and was common before streaming became popular. Also, Shondaland still manages to release new seasons of Grey's Anatomy almost every year. So clearly, Netflix's process is slowing down Bridgerton.

2) Usually, the delay between a show’s first and second seasons is due to production only starting after the season is greenlit, which typically happens after the first season is released and has proven successful. However, Bridgerton S3 and S4 were greenlit in tandem in April 2021! So S4 should have started production way earlier, but apparently that wasn't the case. Instead, we were listening to Jess Brownell at the S3 premiere that the scripts for S4 were still being worked on. What do you mean? The season was greenlit 3 years prior and you're not finished writing? That's very concerning.

By comparison, let's look at Disney. Percy Jackson S2 was greenlit in February 2024, started filming in August 2024 and it's meant to be released in late 2025. That's insane! It's 1 1/2 years from the beginning of filming for a show with heavy visual effects, lots of fantasy locations and that works almost exclusively with child actors, which slows production. We could talk about the strickes delaying the writing for Bridgerton S4, but it still doesn't add up because how did Percy Jackson managed to keep its release date despite also struggling with the strikes and being greenlight much later? Something isn’t adding up.

3) It saddens me to say this but I believe S4’s numbers will be lower than S3’s, and here’s why: S3 wasn’t the biggest critical success. After S2, the show gained many new fans, which contributed to S3’s higher numbers. This isn't something to ignore, most casual viewers came back to S3 because they loved S2. However, many casuals were disappointed with S3. Some disliked the direction of Penelope's arc, the lack of Colin, the excess of subplots, and the nonsensical plotlines and many book fans were also frustrated by the show deviating from the books (yeah, I'm talking about Michaela). While hardcore fans may still support the show, it's unclear how many casual viewers will come back. We'll have to wait and see, but the outlook isn’t great.

I want to make this clear: The issues with S3 were mostly technical: incoherent writing, lackluster cinematography, poor costuming, etc. These factors contributed to a lukewarm reception. It wasn't bad but it was not as cohesive as the previous 2 seasons. Releasing the season in two parts was also a strange decision. Any couple could have suffered from these issues, but unfortunately, it was Polin. Benophies should be wary of S4, as the same showrunner, Jess Brownell, is here to stay.

Which finally brings me to...

4) Marketing! Leaks are a constant issue in film and TV production. Technology has made it easier to obtain unauthorized footage. Some marketing teams have learned to use leaks strategically, so it’s hard to know whether leaks are planned or genuine (search for the Gravity Falls fake author leak, it's hilarious). I suspect Bridgerton is and will be using leaks to keep fans engaged and regain the interest of those disappointed by S3. And, whether you like it or not, Benedict (and Luke T) is a fan favorite, and his storyline will likely draw lots of attention. We can already see that the social media posts for S4 are gaining traction, far bigger than expected I would say. So be ready for more of those in the next 2 years.

TL;DR: The delay of S4 is primarily due to Netflix’s slow production pace, but despite possible production delays, the timeline still doesn’t add up, something is amiss. Also, the mixed reception of S3 may lead to lower viewership numbers for S4, or it may not, since Netflix will likely use articles and leaks to drum up interest for S4 and Benedict is a fan favorite. Only time will tell if this will work for the show, or if it's too late. We can only hope that the production team learned from the mistakes of S3, but it's an uphill battle.

... Man, and I'm not even touching on fan wars here.

Ughh too long!!!

I know society is dum. To many awful people aroung here but really benedict the man Who threatened to ruin a poor woman is a fave??? Benedict in the show who still personality from book Colin???

[mandy4ever69420]

why have i had to see like. a shitbillion posts with people who think it's a reasonable or romantic headcanon that mickey would only ever bottom with ian and no one else ever in his life. omfg

1. the idea that this is a reasonable romantic trope or even what happened?

there are literally better and stronger more meaningful things to use for this line of thinking IN THE TEXT. mickey explicitly considers kissing more intimate than sex and it's entirely believable that ian would be his first kiss, at least with a guy. he's certainly the only guy mickey's ever loved. it's in the text. it's right there. mickey can have and enjoy sex with people without them being more or even comparatively important. this is some "you lose a flower petal with every guy you sleep with" type shit

2. the idea that mickey only hung around ian because ian could offer him something sexually that others couldn't?

mickey SAYS "--had to do all the fuckin in juvie" specifically to deflect from the accidental confession of "missed ya". i believe him that he was screwing around because it's expected and topping because it's still "straight" in prison (see: 6), but mickey was hanging around ian very straightforwardly because he liked him and enjoyed his company.

ian's worth doesn't lie in his sexual abilities. that's an aspect of ian's self worth issues, as a result of being groomed. despite mickey's claims (lol) im sure ian's pretty much normal at sex. especially considering he didn't get what would be fun about using toys until apparently s4 where they have that goofy exchange finding a dildo that implies they've become familiar. (and apparently discovered rimming in s5 -> "cops can kiss my ass" / "how about i do instead?"). congrats on learning something though.

3. sorry it seems sort of weirdly cruel to rhetorically deny mickey enjoying sex before ian or while they were separated.

4. the implication that mickey bottoming was like.. ian's idea? somehow?

again, very close to the innocent virgin thing. which is also something i've seen people attempting to assign to mickey, including ignoring or denying his meaningless/pressured sex with women. very, very regressive. also completely absurd in my opinion. interesting this line of thought is never applied to ian, who doesn't seem to have had any age appropriate relationships to which he could give meaningful consent before mickey at all.

5. the idea that bottoming is more vulnerable than topping? that mickey knew he could be "safe" to be "vulnerable" around ian in season 1?

this is patriarchy. the association between receiving sexual acts & being gentle or something. patriarchy and homophobia are very closely connected. also disrespectful to, like, tops. i promise topping is intimate and vulnerable. mickey's self harm through sex with women and his rape were both centered in part on the horror of being forced/pressure to participate in a type of sex that he wouldn't have in how he behaves, as well as that of people he wouldn't want to be with, in contexts that are unsafe.

the thing that worries me about this one the most, possibly, is its discredit for the effects of rape against people if they're not penetrated? does this imply it would've been "worse" in season 3 if mickey's assault included being penetrated? is ian's grooming "less bad" somehow because he was topping the older men who targeted him? are we going to consider - contrary to a central lesson, pushed strongly by s3 in particular - a male rape victim "less violated" than a woman, or a man who was penetrated?

this is also (5) just, again, not what happened. mickey didn't feel safe to be vulnerable around ian when they first hooked up. maybe safer than with other people, considering he let ian look at him at all, but very very guarded! he thought ian was good looking and bold and maybe interesting. "kiss me and i'll cut your tongue out" are not the words of someone who feels they can be vulnerable.

it's important that we see by the end of season 1 mickey had caught real feelings BEFORE he felt safe around ian. he wants to offer ian comfort, sees ian needs it, but doesn't know how other than just to let ian hold his hand for a second

6. this mostly seems based on mickey saying he topped in prison, because prisons run on ancient greece rules

mickey says his concern about bottoming is being seen as effeminate or weak and being targeted. he's staying in the closet by doing what's expected, in a different context. there's real world data indicating that mickey is 100% right that he is more likely to be hate crimed by fellow prisoners or guards or "protected" by solitary confinement if he's seen as an easy target. being seen as "gayer" increases likelihood of being victim blamed in the event of assault (sexual or otherwise) in prisons. x, y. i really can't tell people how to read the text of a tv show but i hate to see the treatment of prisoners discounted or disregarded in favor of romanticizing something unnecessary.

"The theory is that you are not gay or bisexual as long as YOU yourself do not allow another man to stick his penis into your mouth or anal passage. If you do the sticking, you can still consider yourself to be a macho man/heterosexual, according to their theory. This is a pretty universal/widespread theory"

[demadogs]

You know way more abou this than I do so you're the perfect person to ask. Do you think it's still possible for season 5 of stranger things to come out in 2024? Because the general consensus seems to be now that it will be pushed back to 2025, but that would be a 3 year gap, just like the gap between seasons 3 and 4. But the reason the gap between 3 and 4 took so long was because:

1) they had to suspend filming for more than half a year due to covid, and then they had to film more slowly because of covid measures,

2) they filmed in many different locations meaning that there were gaps between filming scenes from each group since the directors and crew travelled back and forth I guess, and also building sets takes time; but season 5 will all be filmed in the same place so it will take less time,

3) season 4 was almost double lenght compared to season 3, meaning that filming obviously took way more months, but again, they said season 5 episodes will be shorter.

I know post production an editing will be just as long as it was after season 4, but I think filming will be considerably shorter, thus season 5 releasing in 2024 still being very possible (I'd love for it to be on summer since I hyperfixate on this show for months each time a new season comes out so I need it to be on holidays otherwise I'll fail all my exams lmao but I guess I'm asking for too much 😔)

i actually dont know much more than you do to be honest! but i do think 2024 is a good bet and if i had to be specific, im guessing fall. they said they want to go back to the feel of season one so i think it would be very fitting if after the time skip its set in fall. that would make it likely come out in fall 24 (thats not guaranteed tho. s4 was set in spring but came out in summer).

like you said, covid is the main reason the wait was so fucking long. they started filming in february 2020 so they had really bad luck. they barely shot anything and had to wait months to get back. im not sure the different locations played that huge of a role in how much time it extended the filming. they could have had different crew for different settings so they could film russia stuff at the same time as hawkins stuff or something like that. honestly not sure though i could be wrong.

you make a good point about this season being extra long too, but covid allowed them to write the entire season before they started filming so they may have been able to film more at a faster pace since everything was already written.

i dont think you should assume that post production will take the same amount that it did for s4 tho. we have to take into account that its the last season and they always up their visual effects game every time so post production work could take a verrrry long time and they may, and probably will, be doing completely new things which will take more time. will said vecna is hurting but he’s still alive so vecna probably will have a whole new look to him. if they wanna give him a destroyed gross mushy kinda vibe similar to the s3 flesh monster, they wouldnt be able to accomplish that entirely through practical effects like they did vecna this season, so that would extend the post production a huge amount. theres also the whole post apocalyptic vibe that theyll probably be going for in s5. s4 ended with the upside down basically swallowing hawkins so those spore things may be in every outside shot. all that red lighting and clouds may be in every episode. the upside down are real sets but they still gotta animate the vines and make them moving and wet and gross and again, that could be every single episode.

so to sum up, i do think 2024 is likely it just may not be until the fall. i would really love if it was released on november 6th.

[topaz-mutiny]

Folks seem to be interested in my random and extremely sporadic word vomit (and my tempo is unlikely to change - it may be I even just go silent for a couple months) so I’d thought I’d gather some of my guessworks for the upcoming Season 3 of Vox Machina.

Having seen the campaign already and knowing what points they need to hit gives me some ideas on what might happen.

The first thing to note is that what will happen likely depends pretty strongly on if the Chroma Conclave arc extends into Season 4 or not. If CC ends in Season 3, thats one dragon dead every 4 episodes. Which doesn’t sound bad until you account for everything that happens in between - 3 more people need vestiges, potential plane-hopping, downtime scenes, romance scenes, villain scenes, character progression scenes (like the Twins finding out it was Thordak that killed their mom). Is a lot. But it could be done - a lot would probably need to get cut or condensed.

So, with that in mind, here’s what I think is going to get cut and changed if the Conclave ends in S3:

Kynan Leore is cut entirely. Vax already has plenty of storypoints on his plate, adding in Syndrome isn’t too necessary especially since Ripley can just hire anybody she wants. There’s also not been any buildup to it, and while it could happen entirely in S3, that would be time better served to the other members of Vox.

Hotis is cut entirely. Again, Vax has already had a lot happen and while Hotis’ conclusion didn’t happen until after the Conclave, what we’ve seen of Hotis seemed to just purely be an easter egg for fans of the actual-play. So this also would mean Vox Machina Does Not Go To Hell. Percy may make a deal with a devil somewhere else.

City of Brass might be cut. We’ve just seen two major moments of Scanlan (jumping from a height with Mythcarver in order to save his friends and getting a devastating hit (from Hotis’ attempted assassination), and Awakening Mythcarver by standing his ground and not running away (killing blow on a devil in the City of Brass)) so the only really important thing left there is the Plate of the Dawnmartyr, which could be moved. I can see the City of Brass staying but being greatly changed, especially if the Conclave extends into S4.

Keyleth’s Earth Aramente will be shown. This is something that happened pre-stream and during a timeskip, so no one but Matt and Marisha really have had details on this before. But the show has indicated that Keyleth still needs to go to Terra for her Aramente, so it seems like it will be shown here and she will gain her Keyteor Earth Elemental form here. Possibly could also be combined with getting the Spire of Conflux, depending on what happens with Vorugal.

Vorugal is a big heaping question mark. I have doubts they will ever show Draconia (and the ravine tree was used as their entry to Vasselheim), and a straight assault on Whitestone seems unlikely (what with the magic barrier and Raishan’s alleged help), so it’s really up in the air as to where they’ll be taking his fight (beyond being near a forest for that Anything Can Happen In the Woods scene post-battle, if it maintains its place in the timeline (it might move, honestly, as it seems too quick to have All Them Ripley Scenes in the first 3-4 episodes and then kill Vorugal since he’s definitely the second dragon that will be taken down)). Possibly the dragon fight I’m most interested in since it’s such an unknown.

Ripley might have more vestiges. For the sake of condensing things, Ripley could not only start stealing Cabal’s Ruin and Whisper, but the Plate of the Dawnmartyr as well and maybe even the Spire of Conflux. She seems WAY more involved in the show than in the streams and we’ve gotten to see her perspective fairly frequently. Having more than 1 or 2 vestiges (some part of me thinks Whisper might be cut since Show Vax is fast enough that teleporting on a knife hit seems redundant, plus it would work better having 1 vestige per character) on hand would also make her and her crew an even more interesting and dangerous Mirror Match for the party. It will also help lead the show party into discovering she’s involved, discovering she’s making guns, and letting Percy feel like shit for multiple episodes.

I do expect the Thordak and Raishan fights to go pretty much like they did on stream (barring the deaths, which all but one will be removed). Speaking of deaths...

While I really, really, REALLY want it to happen, it is still possible Percy’s Glintshore death will be replaced with something equally dire, like Orthax kidnapping his soul or something and torturing him a little, and after Orthax is gone his soul is separated from his body and is contemplating going with the Matron of Ravens until Someone calls his soul back to his body.

Unlike by brother, I still think Scanlan’s FIX HIM death is still going to happen. They’ve really been focusing on giving Scanlan a five-star treatment during the show (which, not gonna lie, I’m a little annoyed at), and that death and his team’s prank cements his decision to leave Vox Machina. It would also be a great point to allow Pike to perform her first resurrection rite, based off of how she saw Kashaw perform one, and set up for how Vax’s upcoming death is a death Pike cannot fix.

And then they might do something to set up the Whispered One / return of That Bitch arc, but I’m not sure what it could be. A villain scene, perhaps.

So, that’s it for my thoughts on the major plot beats.

[familyagrestefanblog]

Ml Meta analysis: Adriens current absents, season 4 structure and theory on whats to come

Here I am back again with my endless rambling.

I'm just as worried for our cat son as everyone else (maybe even more) which is why I tried figuring out for my own sanity why he is so absent currently.

Upfront I wanna warn yall that I wrote this post in one rush this night and therefore had no time to do alot of editing. So things can probably get a bit more messy than usual but I tried to write it clearly, while writing 2 other ml essays as well. This is the one drawback of having so many episodes in such a short time, I have no time to write my posts x3 I had another theory planned for before Optigami airs but I don't think I can manage before tomorrow.

But let's not waste any more time. Grab a snack and here we go:

It's 2am right now but I think I just realized why Adrien/Chat Noir is being sidelined so much recently.

Sure, yes, it'll come into play in the very obviously set up Ladynoir drama later on but what I wanna talk about now is more the structure of how s4 is most likely written in terms of both Marinettes and Adriens side of the story. And then deep dive a little on why I think so.

You see season 4 is now reaping what has been built up from s1-s3, but this also includes that you have to take the time now to properly recreate the new possibilities out of the loose pieces of the broken status quo.

Seriously, season 4 has to handle and reinvent ALOT. The show got now officially announced to have 7 seasons, which is exactly the amount of seasons Astruc said they have story for. I couldnt find the official tweet from Thomas himself but I one from another source:

And now look take a look at the possible shows structure:

- s1-s3 was the first status quo and built up everything so now they can pay off after pay off while...

-... S4 is now the transitional season where the old status quo gets left behind as we work towards the new one.

-I have nothing to proof this of course, but in the same sense it would now make sense that s5-s7 where/are planned to play out under the final status quo. If I'm not wrong at first the show was under contract for 5 seasons, which would mean that after the transitional season 4 there was only 1 season of the final status quo for sure. Still, done right it could have been worth the wait. But this isn't where Miraculous will end. The show actually got the 7 seasons the creator wanted and THIS is how I think the long term plan makes the most sense. Nothing all too complicated but still hella effective in its execution.

But now back to our two main characters, because Marinettes and Adriens development are the two aspects that will raise the show to the intense heights of the s5-s7 status quo.

From s1-s3 Marinette was the active player but she was hardly involved with the actual PLOT of the show, since most of the plot and backstory of the show lies directly with the Agreste family. She only started to get her own plot when she literally created a new one by getting involved with the miraculous lore, because the closest Marinette got to the Agreste plot was "The collector".

Adrien in the other hand was always literally right in the middle of the plot but he wasn't enough of an active player to bring us further either.

Season 4 is now going to add the missing parts for both of them and as the very beginning of the season showed us: there are going to do it SEPERATLY.

This is why "Truth" and "Lies" have been structured the way they are (One Marinette-centric the other Adrien-centric). Yes, Marinette and Adrien are meant to end their story victoriously together, but they are simply not the people they have to be to become such a powerful team. Certain aspects of their journey they have to do... basically disconnected from the other one. The "Miracle Queen" endcard shows it quite nicely as well where they are heading now: away from each other.

Obviously the season started with Marinette growing into her new guardian status including everything miraculous related, since she is the main lead and because the new ways the episodes can now utilize everything Miraculous need to be established first before we deep dive into the messed up Agreste mystery.

So while I totally agree that it is annoying to get so little Adrien/Chat Noir content currently I also understand the practicality behind it. As I said, before s4 Marinette was the active main character who mostly didn't really have her own plot. So now adding her plot aspect and have her ACTIVELY figure everything needed out means that right now Marinette/Ladybug is the active focus main character who is solving a huge part of her s4 character arc. That simply drowns out Adrien as the currently still mostly-inactive secondary main character who, yes, may be right in the middle of the shows emotional + villain plot/lore/backstory, but that side of the story simply isn't in focus at the moment.

And I gotta say, I'm kinda glad they're doing it this way. Because I'm gonna be honest, when the season starts giving us Adrien/family Agreste episodes like "Lies" and "The collector" (in this case "Gabriel Agreste" for example) again, I don't want the narrative to be forced to spend time with something guardian lore based just because they didn't took their time to do it earlier.

So, as we see on the s4 episode raster "Gabriel Agreste" is episode 9. Honestly, I expect most of it (especially the ones near the beginning, so ep. 5 included) til that episode to be Marinette based the way everything else til now did (besides Lies obviously and Guilt trip didn't hardcore focus on Marinette/Ladybug either and that's because it's after "Gabriel Agreste") in the spirit of "Truth". It's just the needed set up from Marinettes side of the story and I can live with that.

Because we actually saw the change after "Gabriel Agreste" already in "Guilt trip".

I don't know why some people pretend like Chat almost cataclysming himself after hearing how guilt-eaten Nino is for Adriens sake isn't a huge indicator that the episodes afterwards will not only acknowledge but also DEAL with Adriens/Chats situation and problems. Remember, we are talking about CHAT NOIR here not Adrien Agreste. The show has always portrayed and acknowledged ADRIENS issues very straight forward and with the proper seriousness (especially when it comes to his family), whereas Chat Noir was often mostly used for comedic purposes with some exceptions of his problems being properly delt with (since Marinette/Ladybug was mostly oblivious to them, since Adrien keeps them hidden so well). But now in "Guilt trip" LADYBUG was confronted head-on with just how much negativity Chat has inside and how quickly and extremely he drowns in it.

Sure, correct, the episode also has his negativity "washed away" rather quickly by Ladybug opening up to him on how important he is to her

But this is in character for both of them as "Lies" very clearly showed us that the way BOTH OF THEM behave here is where the problem lies. There Ladybug was freaked out after Chat threw his life away once again but quickly accepted Chats very direct avoidance of the confrontation, since he seemed to be alright to her.

Something I also find noteworthy here is that Ladybugs dialog is "Seriously, you need to stop doing this to me!", which is.... a VERY Marinette-centric way of acknowledging the problem.

It completely shifts the issue away from Adriens extremely alarming self-harmful/suicidal tendencies and instead only calls out how it affects Marinette (whose feelings here are definitely valid, don't get me wrong!). It showcases perfectly how unaware Marinette still is of her partners inner tumult at that point and also parallels how Marinette called Adriens life "perfect" at the beginning of the episode (This is no shade towards Marinette, in general the entirety of "Lies" is about showing us just how harmful Adriens Chat Noir persona actually IS to him so these two moments of her being oblivious to Adriens and Chats immense problems very much fits into that episodes narrative and sets up what's about to come. I still have an entire essay in the making for "Lies" but, guys, it's just getting longer and longer. I suck xD).

So the fact that an episode after "Gabriel Agreste" brings this scenario back, just a little different but ALOT more revealing of Adriens immense problems to his partner, is VERY telling. Besides other things it tells us that this happens at the beginning of the arc that deals with (at least) Chats issues since Ladybug is still way too quickly too ready to accept her partner as "completely fine" again just because Chat makes it seem that way (while some negativity increasing guilt bubbles still to stick to him.).

And yet, others have already pointed it out that Ladybug IS noticing what Chat wanted to do and reacted accordingly...

she just didn't speak of it the way it is because it overwhelmed her, which calls back to Ladybugs "You have to stop doing this to me!" dialog.( For a great breakdown of her dialog HERE is a link to @flightfoot​ post)

In "Lies" Marinette was way too stressed by her new guardian role to even consider Chats side of it and therefore only spoke of her own, but in "Guilt trip" she's already past that stressful arc. So here she is immediately able to recognize Chats suicidal action for what it is, come to his (much needed) aid and lift her partners spirit the best she can by emotionally opening up to him (which is something we KNOW is incredibly hart for Marinette).

The difference between her reaction in "Lies" and in "Guilt trip" shows that Marinette has her guardian role already mostly handled and is now mentally able to be there for others again, so the extremely Marinette-centric "Truth"-like episodes are mostly passed. Now the episodes can bring Adrien/Chat Noir more into the game again and even shift to "Lies" - like episodes because MARINETTE can pay more attention to him again and isn't faced with something new, important and overwhelming Miraculous related every step she takes.

And THAT is extremely fair from a narrative standpoint.

---

I really need to stop elaborating so much on these posts because I'm only NOW actually getting to the point of where Adriens journey will disconnect for a while from Ladybugs. Sorry guys.

Okay, to understand where I'm going with this I will have to quickly explain how I always saw Chat Noirs place in the Ladybug+Chat Noir vs Hawkmoth war ever since s1.

Because here is the thing: Adrien wasn't able to truly leave the battle field ONCE since the origins. Marinette was completely out of Hawkmoths and Gabriels reach once she detransformed, which balances out her basically being the personification of the good sides force. And Gabriel literally decided whenever or not the battle is even ACTIVE right now! Besides that he is in complete control of his own actions and environment, which gives him all the necessary time, safety and downtime he needs to act as the personification of the evil sides force.

Marinette and Gabriel always knew when they were safe and off the battle field, but ADRIEN never had that and it left him LITERALLY right in the middle of both Ladybugs and Hawkmoths sides.

You see, because before Adrien became Chat Noir he basically was part of Hawkmoths side just by default. He was born into this family, that's his father and lost mother and everything he knows. Adrien didn't/doesn't even have to KNOW that he is part of Hawkmoths side, he's his son at some level he just IS! And I'm not saying this as anything negative, Adrien coming from Hawkmoths side is literally the reason why he became Chat Noir!

Because whereas Gabriel is having the time of his damn life as evil terrorist, created out of tragic and sinister circumstances, ADRIEN on the other hand couldn't handle his families environment and very same circumstances anymore and accepted the role as Paris' hero to escape his heritage for a while.

Keywords being: a WHILE.

Something unique about Adrien I always loved is the fact that he is the villains abused, isolated and overworked SON, who becomes a hero to escape his depressing life and YET it was never Adriens intention to LEAVE IT. Adrien merely wanted to use his time as Chat Noir to let of some steam and breath freely while doing some hero work so he can go back into his civilian life and try to one day successfully ment his broken family. He couldn't handle the current situation anymore but he still always saw worth in his family/father. I have SO MUCH respect for that!

But him not intending to leave his family and instead regaining strength as Chat Noir to continue to hold onto it came with the downside of him not being able to fully become part of the good sides people/force either. Hence why Adriens/Chats place always felt so lost in comparison to Ladybugs and Hawkmoths clear positions. He's caught in between their extremes trying to balance out BOTH at the same time. What an impossible task!

So he couldn't put in the same focus as Ladybug into being the good sides force because he is literally burned out from his civilian life on Hawkmoths evil side. But he also couldn't be involved as an ACTIVE member of his fathers evil force, because he chose to find refuge in his friends and as a hero on Ladybugs side.

Adrien unknowingly is part of BOTH the shows two extreme moral sides of good and evil and this season we will see Adrien/Chat Noir grow into his own within BOTH sides as well.

Because he simply couldn't have done so right away in s1. Now after 3 seasons Chat Noir is more than solidly established as one of Paris Heros and his time with Ladybug, the other heros and his normal friends helped him greatly to find his place on the good side. "Lies" set this up as Chat Noirs arcs starting point that now he has to stop connecting "being heroic" strictly with following Ladybug (as Marinette is the STAND IN personification for the good side, she's still a flawed human being like everyone else and not the ultimate force of perfect and good. Big difference.) just as he has to start looking past his fathers sympathetic moments/qualities to see that Hawkmoth isn't a 100%, inhumane monster just because he is the stand-in personification of evil in their fight, but the man he calls Father and still needs to be taken down. (I talked about this in more detail on THIS post)

Adrien has to seperat himself from Ladybugs path and focus on his family and I believe it'll start with the much dreaded (but expected) Ladynoir fight.

Funnily enough, what I'm talking about was actually already set up in "Frozer" I just didn't remember that for a bit. In "Frozer" we saw Ladynoir having a fight which caused Chat Noir to go his own way in the episodes battle.

I always found it interesting that the episode didn't had Chats decision, to not follow Ladybugs lead here, turn out to be a huge mistake. Almost every other show would have done so but now I think I understand. This episode and s2 in general SET UP the s4 conflict, s3 LEAD UP to it and now s4 DELIVERS it.

So what happened in "Frozer" is a direct parallel to what about to go down:

Ladynoirs fight will cause Chat Noir to not simply  follow Ladybugs side anymore the way he used to, but note, he DOESN'T leave the good side AND they make up again in the end after Chat saves Ladybug from the akuma. He just does things on his own because he isn't on great terms with her for a while. "Frozer" showed Chats decision to not only NOT be a mistake but also a necessary part of defeating the akuma, just the way it'll be in s4. Damn, Adrien breaking away from Ladybugs side, the way she (unintentionally tho) did at the beginning of the season, to focus more on himself and his family will be the game changing factor, when Adrien will have his completing arc where he goes from "not active character within the villain/backstory plot" to "ACTIVE character within the villain/backstory plot".

And we already saw with Marinette how many fast breakthroughs we get through these completing arcs. Which is also a reason for why Adriens/ Chats arc comes later in the season, because BUDDY. Once Adrien starts to actively uncover his families mystery and fathers secrets Gabriel is SCREWED! Adrien will gain the needed inside knowledge that complements Marinettes Miraculous power; and reunited they can take on whatever the hell kind of scale the Agrestes plan actually is.

So how to end this post? My biggest intention was to raise hope for everybody (myself included lol) who is right now very concerned and upset about how side-lined our boy is at the moment. But I prefer doing so in a way that actually works with canons context instead of sugarcoating what I don't like. And Adriens/Chats current position I definitely do NOT like but accepting it as realistic outcome from s1-s3 and set up for the escalation for both Ladynoir and his home situation gives it the proper purpose and pay off (narrative and character wise) that it SHOULD have.

Basically, the endcards of "Truth" and "Lies" show it perfectly.

It looks like ShadowMoth is turning a blind eye towards Adrien/Chat Noir because of Ladybugs new guardian status and "greater importance". But Gabriels tunnel vision on Ladybug will leave him vulnerable to his own sons secret actions against him and Gabriel won't see it coming until its already too late.

[spneveryseason]

Results of the Supernatural Origins Survey: Part 1 of 2

Hey all! As you may remember, a while back I posted a survey to try to see if there were any interesting trends in when we started watching the show, why we liked it, and why we kept going. Thank you so much to everyone who responded! I read and appreciated all the comments that you guys left as well. I’ve now compiled all your responses into charts, and since tumblr only allows ten images per post I will have to make this 2 different parts. Hope you enjoy!

Which season was the first season you watched?

Pretty runaway result here: most people started watching at season 1! This is most likely because people wanted to go sequentially and makes a lot of sense to me! This also reveals that the large majority of people decided to start at the beginning rather than the middle somewhere. Another interesting thing to note is the very distant second: season 4 with 4%.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

I technically saw the confession scene first but then went back and started from the beginning after the finale

The first episode I ever saw was 4*17, randomly on tv, in early 2011. They were showing two episodes a day on whatever network that was. I got hooked and went to watch it all from the beginning. Then, once I caught up, I was binging each season as it was released on netflix or dvd. So, I was behind on the 5th itself.

So, for extra context: I was a General Audience viewer from S3-S7 just catching episodes at random because it was on and I liked horror/comedy. No expectations, barely knew who anyone was besides Sam and Dean tbh. During S9, I properly got into and watched/caught up from the beginning to catch up to a friend (a Casgirl who had been going through it.) She was however a Destiel shipper and as a result I did watch with some shipper goggles on that never came back off. During the pandemic I got back into it on my own (after falling behind from S10-S12) to catch up for the finale and definitely watched mostly for the ships (Destiel, Saileen, etc). However nowadays post-finale shipping/multishipping is where I have a lot of fun, but far from the only reason I still think about and watch the show anymore. If anything it was more a gateway for me to get into it for real and enjoy other characters/dynamics even more than ever.

this show spans across 3 different decades and personally it's incredible to kind of see my feelings towards the show evolve over time the older and more aware I get. I had 3 major periods of watching the show in my life, with not watching in between. when I started (s4-5), resurgence/started using tumblr (s8-9), and post confession. I started watching as a teenager and now I'm almost 30. like for example, when I first started the Gordon eps didn't register anything, but seeing those episodes now and understanding the implicit racism they are impossible to watch. it's not only being aware of myself but seeing the show itself evolve and change, but also NOT evolve or change in certain aspects. anyway sorry for all this thanks for the survey!

i hadn’t watched it in a decade and then 11/5/21 kicked my ass.

i “started watching” in season four but that was just the first episode i watched in it’s entirety. i proceeded to watch everything else out of order

to be very clear with this i watched season 1-8 as a teenager and then stopped watching for like 6 years and THEN when covid hit in march 2020 i watched all 15 seasons of it with friends over netflix party. it was a very start and stop relationship with "watching" supernatural.

Which season was airing when you first started?

This answer is pretty varied, with some interesting results! First place here is season 8, meaning 15% of people started watching between 2012/2013. Next is season 9 (2013/2014), then post season 15 (after nov 2020), then season 7 (2011/2012), then season 15 (2019/2020). As for the why, I’m assuming because the show was at its online height between 2012-2014, which would have encouraged people to start watching. It also got a lot of attention during its final three episodes, which explains the number of people that started after the show ended.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

sorry i picked all of the "other" options ajsljdskdj and thank you for making this survey! very interested to see the data that comes out of it. also can't wait to get to 4x1 and meet cas because i get the sense from tumblr that he's the funniest character in the show

I'd been aware of the show since at least 2006/2007 and knew basic stuff about plot and characters through simply being in online fandom spaces. I was spoiled for a LOT by the time I actually started watching in the summer after s7 - had been meaning to actually watch it for a while and finally got off my butt and did it as part of bonding with a new (at the time) friend who really wanted me to watch it and share my thoughts. We've been together since 2014 now - SPN fandom is a lesbian dating service. I got pissed enough to quit entirely when Kevin was killed but then got pulled back in after Nov 5 and besides watching the last two episodes live and spoiling myself for everything I have yet to actually catch up on all the episodes I missed, though I intend to watch (most, there's some I'm not gonna subject myself to) them.

i had caught up by the time season 8 started but missed an ep and found i didn't care to continue, rewatched after nov 5th and couldnt get through season 7. as a young teen i loved destiel but now i am 22 and don't anymore. i care much more about the generational trauma and sam as a character

I think it’d be interesting to see this quiz have an age breakdown of answers too. Someone who started watching/joined fandom in 2008 when they were 16 would have a vastly different experience to a fourteen year old who started at the peak of tumblr popularity at the turn of the dashcon era. Anyway Boy King or bust #wewasrobbed

I started watching while s8 was airing, caught up and watched seasons 9 & 10 live, then quit. Now I'm re-watching all the way through and I don't think the show knows what it's supposed to be about. I think the first 4 answers to that question above are what it WANTED to be about but I don't think it managed to coherently support any of them, and wound up devolving into a combination of the last 2 choices. Absolutely batshit show and it can be anything we want it to be.

I think I was one of many who was huge into the show and the fandom around 2012/2013 then came to my senses that the sexism/racism/homophobia and general worsening in quality wasn't going to end and stopped. My friends at I hadn't thought of it apart from a shudder of embarrassment in YEARS until 2020 and the destiel/final episode shitshow. I've rewatched the show since then and we talk about it all the time. As an adult I have new found love for the early seasons (season 3 my beloved). Although I can feel my connection and interest to the show waning again now…

Which season is your favorite?

A few seasons dominated here, with first place tying exactly (and I mean exactly, down to the number!) between season 4 and season 5. Second is season 2, followed distantly by season 8, then season 1. Nothing here is much of a surprise either: seasons 4 and 5 are generally beloved for both storytelling and character reasons. Season 2 is popular with people who love the show’s classic era, and season 8 is loved amongst many different niches of fandom. Season 1 is the first season and holds a special place in that regard. I do want to note that fifth place is held by season 12, which did surprise me!

Some of your comments on this topic include:

love love love first 5 seasons even if there should have been more powers sam. amelia should have been a hallucination, dean should have been called out for sucking in the later seasons. love and light <3

I tend to think of s1-5 and s6-onwards as sort of thematically different to varying degrees as later seasons go on. I would say earlier seasons have more of a family is hell vibe whereas later seasons seem to differ on the light that they paint the family in. Dean is worse in later seasons but the writing feels less self aware at times than in Kripke era

the s1-5 aesthetics are off the hook

Some of my family and friends Who seen the show or agree that the show really ended with season five. And the rest was pretty much just kicking a dead horse down the road. Some people won’t even acknowledge that it’s the same TV show after that point because that was the true narrative ending.

Picked season 13 as my favorite because of Sam's beard and I won't apologize for it.

I love the aesthetic so far (seasons 1-4) and I’m sure it’s gonna change after 5 but I really like that “midwestern gothic” vibe. also before the ending aired I saw this really long tumblr post that had theories about the last episode and one that I really liked was that they (Sam and Dean) start all over from the beginning on that bridge in ep 1 I think that would’ve been insane lol

Favorite character?

The vast majority of people chose within team free will here. The winner is Sam (which is congruent with the findings of my previous survey), followed by Cas, and then Dean. Of the supporting characters, Gabriel, Crowley, Jack, and Adam got the most votes. This is the second time I include this question in a survey and a stronger indication that Sam may indeed be fairly popular in fandom. What’s interesting however is that Cas and Dean have switched spots since the last time I asked this question, meaning the survey may have reached different demographics. In any case, Sam still wins out here.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

sam wincheser was purposefully designed by eric kripke to make me fucking insane x

i hate spn i’m only here for adam <3

I think Dean is a self-aware character but the writers drown him in toxic masculinity. He wants the “apple-pie” life and is built for it. Sam was a complex character, but then the writers took that away from him. He is not built for the “apple-pie” life. Sam is a mirror for John. If we have to be canon compliant, Dean and Cas definitely, eventually, reunite in Heaven. I think about this show too much and it gives me too many emotions during my day-to-day life.

I think too much focus was on the Winchesters by the end. after 15 seasons they were pretty average and the ensemble cast around them were either wasted or the writers didn't know what to do with them (Cas, Crowley, Jack etc). A couple of episodes focused on character building without Sam and Dean present would have been amazing. Cas and Garth? Jack and Claire? But no, they had to be anchored to the Winchesters and the Winchesters only, and it stifled the shows natural growth.

The show is about Sam! It's his Hero's Journey, it covers the most important part of his life and the most important relationship in his life (his brotherhood with Dean). The show begins continues and ends with Sam.

sam's psychic powers was the most compelling (sub)plot of the entire show

shoutout to dean winchester for cracking so many transmasc eggs and for being the object of so many queer peoples projection. thank you king and im sorry but you have eldest daughter syndrome (canonical), adhd (projected), autism (projected), anger issues (canonical), and tboy swag (projected). also hes bi

Sam isn’t cishet

I absolutely love my old man Dean <3 he’s fucking terrible and has. ALL. the issues but that’s ok because those issues make him break down and cry and he’s pretty when he cries so it’s ok

I’m watching the bloody mary episode as I take this survey and I just want to say the way the quality of this show drops so much is so disappointing. This show had so much potential and it makes me really sad to see these characters who will never get a full good story. Anyway just want to say I love castiel so much ❤️

Man do I love the gay angel ❤️❤️❤️

cas is my favorite character

I hate so much that Cas becoming human is so popular and looks like (?) the trajectory the show might’ve been taking. like he’s perfect the way he is :( sorry I’m emo over him today it’s just I started watching when I was like 12 and it’s really nice that I kinda like Grew into being gay with Cas. that sounds really embarrassing but 😭. One of the biggest things I dislike about the shows writing is the de powering of Cas (to be clear NOT that he became more gentle as the show went on I mean like. His actual powers)

jess was ruby all along and i'll die on this hill

I think I would like Castiel if he wasn’t played by Misha Collins.

I just wish Sam was able to finish his law degree, even if he also did hunting on the side

Sam

I just wish it was done better is all, it's so embarrassing to be a lesbian this ride or die for a fictional man played by Jared Padelecki

SAM’S CHARACTER WAS WASTED

I’d be nice if they gave some characters like Charlie and Kevin more screen time before killing them off. Also off topic, but sometimes I think about how much of Kevin’s life wasted away while he was playing the cello and doing schoolwork and that makes his death even more tragic.

Why did you start watching the show?

This was a write in question, so I incorporated your answers into the various categories and added a couple too. In first place here was “tumblr/online spaces told me it was good”, which incorporates recommendations online for the show or characters, as well as wanting to participate in the fandom in general. This demonstrates that a plurality of people started the show because of the influence of online spaces and various cultural osmosis online. A close second was “a friend recommended it to me”, which includes real life recommendations from friends and family removed from online influence. This means that a majority of people had the show recommended to them either online or from family or friends.

Third was “I saw it an random and gave it a try”, which is running across the show on tv or streaming with not much of an idea of what it was and deciding to just try it out. Fourth was “I heard about it on the news” which includes seeking it out deliberately after hearing it being promoted or seeing that a particular actor was in it. Fifth was “tumblr/online spaces told me it had great representation” which incorporated watching it deliberately because of elements of minority representation (in this case, gender and sexuality). Sixth was “tumblr/online spaces told me it was bad”, starting out of curiosity or wanting a so bad it’s good experience. And finally there was “nov 5 fallout” or explicitly stating that people began because of the reaction to 15x18 despair.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

I came to SPN for angst and I certainly got it.

started watching in order to understand more memes in the height of superwholock but i was still homophobic when i first started watching it and didn't think there was anything worth shipping in the show (in dw i had tenrose and in sherlock i shipped him with molly #cringe) so it was my least favorite but i still felt endeared to it and started rewatching the whole thing again when i heard it was ending at the beginning of 2020 and during that rewatch after several gay awakenings i was like. holy shit these guys are all gay

My brother originally begged me to stop watching the show because he didn't want his friends to think it was a "girly show". Jokes on him lmao

I rewatching it with my boyfriend rn he watched it in like 2009 with his grandma and didnt remember ANYTHING about cas its been fun watching it with someone who had an almost opposite viewing experience

I answered correctly (I think) but i wanted to elaborate because my cousin got me into the show because we were living together and she wanted to get me into it so she watched it with me. Then I stopped watching when she moved away in 2015 after having gotten a few episodes into s5, then I barely thought about the show again until Nov 5th 2020, which got me back into it full-force and made me rewatch/watch all 15 seasons over the course of a year. So, my answers are in light of that in case it helps your data collection. Also, because I wanted to state that I'd basically forgotten I'd even watched the show until Despair and that started me on a hyperfixation of immense proportions and I just think that's neat. I hope you're having a good day, and thank you for doing all these stats! I'm excited to see the results!

To clarify, I started watching because my friends were into destiel but by the time season four came I barely cared about Dean. Stayed for the Sam plotlines, left because it got too sad with no catharsis.

I did get into the show because of what I saw people shipping destiel, and I do ship destiel, but the reason I stayed watching the show was the relationship between the brothers(totally platonic not wincest)

Season ten was the first season that I genuinely did not enjoy a single thing about, probably never gonna pick it up again from there. Started watching because destiel sounded interesting, ended up thinking their chemistry was shit and stayed for the saucy little blood freak.

I went into it thinking it was a horror show. Watched a rerun at random, turned out to be Croatoan. 0% horror 150% codependent brothers. I was hooked from the get-go. Had no idea what was going on plot-wise but their dynamic and emotions and care for each other had me interested and kept me watching for the next 5 years until it ended. And even at the end, their bond is my favorite thing about it.

Why did you keep watching the show?

Another write in, so I’ll explain the reasoning behind the categories. The winner here was “I enjoyed it”, which incorporates any and all positive feelings about the show including liking the stories or the characters. This means that the majority of people continued watching because they liked some aspect of the actual show itself. Next was “having fun about it online”, which includes engaging in fandom and other online communities.

Third was “having fun watching it with my friends” which incorporates continuing because it was something to do/a bonding experience with loved ones. Fourth was “I thought it was going somewhere amazing”, which includes persevering for a specific endgame in mind or just to see how it ended. Fifth was “it was on so i just kept watching it” indicating watching without any large amount of emotional attachment and just as something to do to pass the time.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

when i first started watching i was like. 12 and very repressed (not to traumadump on the supernatural community survey 😅) and like actively closed my eyes so as the show went on i like... figured out I was gay while some writers started more deliberately coding cas. i’m thinking about s12 market research rn apologies. so he just really means a lot to me!! and i remember that when s12 was airing i would very viscerally defend the show like they were paying me. I mean i was adamant that it was a good show and not bad, whcih is something I don’t do at all now. oh yeah also i ragequit the show entirely in the middle of Lebanon. I was INSANELY upset that 1. cas wasnt in the episode (lol) and 2. john was back and they made no attempt to age JDM down (i was like. damn the quality of this shit sucks). I remember I was like viscerally upset after the empty deal episode cuz i was like the ONLY reason they would do this is as a destiel chekhov’s gun, but then I was like but they have no intention of doing earnest destiel. thinking they do is giving them too much credit i’m delusional. and it made me so upset during Lebanon that i stopped watching before Cas showed up 😭 and then i didn’t come back until Nov 5

the show is so terrible and yet i’m stuck with it please get me out of here

I’ll never forgive the show for the way they handled The Gadreel Incident or Demon Dean. Also, deeply embarrassing factoid but watching Supernatural as a teen genuinely helped me deconstruct my evangelical faith and get out of that hell hole and now I’m super gay. I love Supernatural

having grown up in a very unhealthy environment similar to the winchester brothers, the way that the brothers are both horrible for each other yet still the best (only?) available option for happiness is really compelling. plots started falling apart after dean went to hell, but i still enjoyed the show until season 12. i watched spn with my older sister who raised me and the moments of brotherly love broken up by these intense fights, sam pushing dean for independence (and dean acquiescing, at least in the early seasons), the way they take care of each other because literally no other human has been through the same things they have... it's all really dear to my heart.

I loved it until I didnt and it was gradual falling out so I didn’t notice til to late

i genuinely... enjoy the show. supernatural things are my special interest and this show does better than those shitty ghost shows on the travel channel.

I saw myself in some of the characters and the unusual relationship between the brothers got me invested. it wasn't bland and then it became bland.

i kept watching for multiple reasons really; fun horror, family dynamics and impactful storytelling. to be honest it's kinda hard to answer these types of questions though since it's such a long series and one answer applies to one season but not another, you know? so some answers here might not be applicable to all 15 seasons

I used to like this show but after like s8 I just could not do it anymore. Where do you go when the literal apocalypse was in s4? How do you escalate believably? You don't. I literally didn't care about any of the stakes after that and it got stupid and boring.

Honestly I kept on watching after season 12 because of Misha. His acting choices and interpretations were always amazing, from casifer to the empty. Jensen jacting joices kept me here too

Did you go into the show with any particular expectations?

Pretty straightforward question with a pretty evenly split answer! The majority of people did not go in with particular expectations, but just barely. This indicates that there is a pretty even split between people who went in expecting something based on what they had been told of the show and those that went in without them.

Some of your comments about this topic include:

I was going to say yes to the "did you go into it with expectations" because for some reason I expected it to be set in the UK after hearing about it from my aunt but that wasn't an option

Didn't know where else to put this: Few expectations for what the show would be like, had no idea early seasons had such a heavy Sam focus & was deeply disappointed when it went away (& never came back).

What were your expectations?

The nature of the expectations are laid out here. The plurality of people expected “lots of fun horror stuff”, indicating that the most visible element of the show is the genre. This may also mean that it is the element of the show that is most appealing to viewers, as they went in expecting a horror genre show. Second is “good in a bad way”, which means that they had experienced negative feedback from the show and wanted to experience something that is probably not the best quality.

Third is ship related, indicating that about a fifth of respondents came into the show expecting great content for shipping purposes/fandom involvement. Fourth is the family aspect of the show, indicating that this element didn’t seem to be the primary expectation for most. Finally, there’s the quality of storytelling. This seems to be the element that people expected the least going into it.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

I don’t think there should be anymore official Supernatural shows or films. Also I kept watching because I thought it would be more like The X Files with lots of really strong MOTW episodes and it…was not. But there’s still something really fun about watching it and it really hits sometimes, which kind of makes the misses a little forgiveable? Some of them at least. Also, there are some…factions of the fandom that clearly care more about being right than being respectful and having fun, which makes the fandom even more toxic and hard to stand.

i swear there's a watched-supernatural-for-destiel-to-sam-stan pipeline. i swear it's a thing. also i marked myself down as having expectations for destiel, which isn't necessarily entirely true -- i didn't think it would actually be canon and i sure as hell did not go into supernatural expecting good representation, i just heard about a compelling ship and was like "oh sure, i'll watch the show for that". and i didn't start for AGES because i knew it was a """horror""" show and i was a pussy with a low scare tolerance lmfao

i'm trying to remember exactly what my expectations were when i went in, which was years ago. i know that i was disappointed by the horror aspects - i think spn utterly fails as a horror show except when they accidentally write compelling abuse narratives which they don't intend (primarily with dean as the abuser. i do consider john's abuse to be intentional on the part of the writers, however i also think that john's abuse is only compelling because they barely touch it. if they'd shown any more of it than they did it would have popped like a balloon (see: lebanon). however, they make an incredibly compelling, complex, and multifaceted story about domestic abuse with dean as the abuser by never acknowledging that dean does anything wrong, thus allowing him to commit horrific acts without being narratively punished, and while retaining a level of authorial sympathy that allows his motivations and psyche to be explored). but i didn't really go in expecting horror except insofar as that was how the show sold itself within the text. like spn very much does pretend to be a horror show for at least the first three seasons. i did go in expecting shipping stuff because i saw a lot of destiel, but i actually wasn't very compelled by it. like i enjoyed destiel but i didn't really buy it in the text until season six, and even then mostly on cas' end. like i read dean as gay bc his relationships with women were SO disingenuous, but not necessarily as particularly specifically interested in cas. and even now i don't really read dean as in love with cas until s10/11. i did NOT go in expecting "representation" because i had no idea what that meant at the time.

To clarify - I had no expectations about "representation." I knew the show hated gays and even more hated women and poc. I *did* expect Destiel content though, as in stuff that made me insane, and it did make me insane. Also, I put "depth of characters" because there was no solo "Cas" option. I think the only characters with canon depth are Sam and Cas, so it's not like spn is *overall* good at writing characters.

Castiel also for the q above- my expectations were: Castiel. I mean kind of Destiel, but honestly mostly Castiel. I heard about him and yes I did find him highly intriguing/compelling

Like, the expectation I had going in was Buffy but dudes, and I think it was met, especially with all the guest spots from actors who were on Buffy and Angel

To explain my thoughts about expectations about the show, I didn't actually think the show itself was ship heavy, but the fandom was ship heavy, which I liked. I never expected the show to make any ships canon

Coming in, I expected a lot of Destiel -- but in a queerbaiting context. That was one of my reasons for AVOIDING the show for years. Watching it, I can definitely see where the Destiel fans are reading the ship *potential* from -- and as a fandom vet, I'm good with that -- but I don't see it as particularly strong or as queerbaiting (or as canon until 15x18, which made it canon-unrequited). Also, I started with a guide to skipping around and watching the "important" parts, and mid-way through S2 that way went back and watched everything I had skipped. After that, I watched in order but didn't avoid spoilers and jumped into the fandom quickly. I tend to prefer the characterization of later seasons but the plots (both arcs and MOTW) of earlier seasons.

just that i never expected supernatural to have great representation or lots of queerbaiting or content that inspires shipping! i feel like the option i chose for that question doesn't reflect very well how i approached this lol but the important thing (and why i picked it) is that i WAS deluded about what i was signing up for. i was led on lmao and it was surprising, when i started watching the show and realized it's got a hold on me but not at all for destiel reasons. but i never expected it to be the destiel show. (well i did expect queerbaiting which imo i ALMOST never got.) so yeahh i expected the best part of the show, the only enjoyable part to be the dean and cas relationship, and then found so many other things the majority of people on tumblr never mentioned. and found that i don't care about dean and cas </3 destiel really is such a big ship, they fucking fooled me - in my defense this has never happened to me before and i think it's almost completely unique, the discrepancy between canon and the content + interpretations of slash fandom. this amount of discrepancy is destiel-specific. i had no reason to believe so many people could be wrong lmao

Did it meet your expectations?

In the spectrum of meeting expectations, most people were around the middle here. Most people agreed that the show kind of met their expectations, indicating that they did see at least some of what they were coming in for. 30% of respondents had their expectations met completely or almost completely, while 15% saw that the show did not meet their expectations in the least.

Some of your comments on this topic include:

I wish I'd never gotten into it. Major disappointment and a waste of time.

Sam should have died 💅

Supernatural had such brilliant ideas and plot points they consistently overlooked to drive a simpler narrative that was more able to fill the white man hero complex. It wounds me deeply.

fuck buckleming but i owe them my life sometimes ya know?

castiel outstayed his welcome by about 10 seasons

I stopped watching around season 10 because I was tired of the queerbait. I came back when I heard about 15x18 and I haven’t been the same since.

the worst best show to ever have aired

I'll never forgive the show for how it erased Castiel's personhood and how it never allowed Dean to grow and change for longer than an episode. And I'll never forgive the fandom for how they pushed me out when I stopped worshipping Dean Winchester.

It was seasin 9 when it became so tiresome so repetitive how they recicle all the same plitlines and characters learn all the same previousy learned lessons. There is this post about how spn glances at super interesting even and pardon my language feral thungs and then completely ruins it. At the same time Dearh in s5. Right?

I must emphasize the fact that I started watching it ironically and accidentally became Obsessed because there's literally So Much to think about. I love parsing the contradictions and reverse engineering the narrative, finding every perspective and analyzing the text through that lense. depending on what angle you're looking at it with, supernatural changes and I love and hate that about it. additionally, it's so unintentionally funny. giving Sam the SAME SHIRTS 10 YEARS LATER will never not be funny and iconic.

This show has opened my eyes to many things. Many good, many bad. Especially bad tho. This show has shown me how nasty some people can be (homophobic Destiel + literally destroying everything good about the show afterward, probably out of spite). I don't have a favorite season. I have plenty of favorite episodes tho. I don't remember the earlier seasons enough; its been years since I've seen them. But plot wise those were the best. Also you really need to include Midam in your options; after 15x8 and Jake Abel shipping them they've gotten somewhat popular :/

It was the best before it was about apocalipse. If it was just about Sam and Dean's personal journey in what it means to be an angry toxic man while also seeing yourself as the hero, and trying their best to help people despite how it's destroying them, it would be worlds better. Also Castiel should have been like, their friend who has to keep an eye on them from heaven because they get into a few big things too many. I think that's the ideal.

If you have any questions about any details of these parts specifically let me know.

Part 2

[purrincess-chat]

I've had this discussion before with friends, but I wanted to delve into it more. In a meta mood today I guess, but I've been thinking while watching s4 (well, I've thought it for a while but it's glaringly obvious in s4), but ML has a huge pacing problem.

I know that s1 was more or less a pilot season. It introduced the concept and dynamics of the show, and they weren't exactly sure if it would get its feet off the ground yet, but seasons 2-4 so far have just had a lot of pacing issues.

And I'm going to preface this by saying that everyone who can't understand the difference between critical discussion and salt, feel free to leave. I don't care if you think the show is perfect the way it is. Go do that somewhere else. People can and should be able to look at the media they consume critically. It doesn't mean it's bad or that they hate it. They just fundamentally understand that it is flawed, and enjoy discussing the plot and its flaws on a deeper level. Refusing to see flaws where they exist isn't the positive power move you think it is.

Anyway, back to the pacing issues.

S2 and s3 had barely any plot. The plot we did get was trickled in. Crumbs. Now we got to s4 and Thomas has declared that every episode will have Chat Blanc levels of bombshells dropped as if that's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, s4 has been better than prior seasons, but I still leave every episode feeling like they rushed to cram in too much.

We all know how I feel about the love rivals, and setting aside personal feelings, the rivals from a writing standpoint were not necessary. At least not functioning as love rivals. Introduce Luka and Kagami, sure, but from a storytelling standpoint the purpose they served in s2 and 3 was just to be a cheap distraction. And they didn't have to be.

The big draw of this show is the love square and its subversion of the love triangle. Now people argue that it's realistic to explore other options before getting together, and while that might be true of real life, that isn't in line with the genre/style of this show. It wasn't a needed lesson, so to speak. They drew us in with the promise to subvert a specific trope in an interesting way, then immediately dragged out that very trope. And not even for any big reason. They just needed an excuse to keep the endgame ship split. And as we can see with how swiftly they dropped the rivals when they were no longer "necessary" as distractions, the writers were always using them as an excuse not to put the square together earlier. They knew the square's chemistry was too good and fans were going to be foaming at the mouth by s3 if they didn't do something. Then the second they have another excuse for the square not to get together, boom. Dropped the rivals.

You felt cheated because it was a cheap tactic, and honestly, it was so avoidable if they had just paced things better.

Honestly, I feel like Alya should have found out in s3. Granted, in order to do that they would have had to changed a lot. So this is what I personally (you are welcome to your opinions elsewhere if you disagree or enjoy canon the way it is) feel would have helped fix this pacing problem:

S1 was a bit unavoidable, and it works for what is is: a market tester.

S2 should have focused more extensively on the lore and Marinette's guardian training. We should have been introduced to Mayura earlier. They should have spent more time expanding Master Fu's story and the order's backstory. They could have created tension with the girls/Alya/Marinette's relationships by having her constantly sneaking around to either fight bad guys or train as a guardian which begins to harbor Alya's suspicion. They very well could have moved Master Fu passing his role onto Marinette to the s2 finale if they were more efficient with their time, leading into s3.

S3 could have had Alya finding out. Marinette becomes too overwhelmed with her new duties as guardian and being Ladybug just as she is in s4. S3 could have been her exploring her new role with her bff by her side for support while they begin to build up the Agreste plot more.

S4 then would have been free to expand the Agreste plot without having to crowd in so many other plotlines. Everything would have room to breathe. Marinette would have been busy enough in prior seasons to justify not dating anyone.

What the rivals effectively did was waste time that could have been utilized to develop the plot further in other areas. I get some people like them, but from an objective storytelling perspective, they were filler. When you write a story, like an honest to God professional story, everything has to serve a greater purpose for the plot and move it forward, and if you are experiencing pacing issues or a plot line isn't working, you have to make the executive decision to cut it or change it. I get that time constraints are a thing in TV. Executive meddling happens. Deadlines are tight, which doesn't always leave room for this kind of long game thinking. I also get that this is (I believe) the first time Thomas has been a head writer. Mistakes are bound to happen. It's how you learn and get better. I get that.

This post is more just me speculating what would have made things work better. For me. So backspace over your butthurt comments. Your precious canon is still untouched. I promise. This is just my opinion, shared on my own blog (and not even tagged). Go make your own meta post.

But that being said, I enjoy s4, but it still doesn't quite sit right with me because they are putting too many eggs in their basket now in an attempt to be epic and up the stakes, but in reality, it just leaves the show feeling really unbalanced. To me.

If you like ML the way it is, great. Go enjoy it, scamp. I wouldn't be here if I didn't glean some enjoyment from it too. I just like to think about things sometimes. And that's perfectly okay.

[zalrb]

I want to preface this by saying that I did read through your Dawson’s Creek posts.

I have a question though. Do you think Pacey understands or knows Joey better than Dawson? In S3 Pacey teaches Joey how to drive stick shift which symbolic in representing how things are shifting between who understands her better. He also challenges her and listens to her. In S4 the show pushes back against the idea Pacey knows Joey best by having Dawson be the one who writes the peer recommendation for Joey.

What are your thoughts on this storyline? Do you think its done well. Tbh, it seems like they equally know her or understand her (well not S3 Dawson because the writers turned him into a Disney villain to make PJ more appealing) especially in S4.

Pacey being the one to teach Joey how to drive was also supposed to symbolize that he was the one she was growing up with, and doing/would do all the "adult" stuff with -- first time driving, sailing away together, first time having sex etc. which is also why in season 4 she says that Dawson knows her past but Pacey holds her future, I get the symbolism of all that but I don't think that's executed particularly well after their build-up.

Like, yes, in season 3 Pacey knew Joey more than Dawson did at that moment because we were supposed to see why a love triangle would even exist, what Pacey would provide Joey that Dawson didn't, and with Dawson it was either like she was his sidekick or his leading lady but with Pacey, she was the centre and it was like he was her leading man, I get that, but then season 4 happens and I think season 4 is actually more a Dawson/Joey season than a Pacey/Joey one despite the fact that they're together. When they’re actually in a relationship, not out at sea in a bubble, they’re kind of a disaster (I know unpopular opinion, and that’s why I’m only putting images during this part because the above part is pretty much universally agreed upon and doesn’t require visual evidence), the only thing Pacey seems to know about Joey at this point is how important Dawson is to her.

They argue about everything

and Dawson facilitates communication between the two of them

Pacey is insensitive to Joey’s issues because he can’t relate to her level of academic success which is directly related to his home life (won’t get into factory settings Pacey)

and Joey is then insensitive to his inability to relate

so then they choose to not deal with it

then Joey somehow doesn’t know that the last thing Pacey would want to do on his birthday is celebrate with a family who repeatedly tears him down

(but Andie facilitated a real emotional moment between father and son! lol)

Pacey manipulates her into a conversation about having sex instead of just talking to her about it

and then when they do have sex they argue about it

and when he is there for Joey, narratively speaking it’s about things that Andie did for him

that the show erased and said only Joey did or Joey did “better” (SOMEHOW)

all the while she’s pining for the closeness she had with Dawson

she’s having her philosophical, emotional conversations with him

and then there’s the letter and not necessarily that she asked him to write the letter but her reactions to when he declines

and when he accepts

the fact that Pacey and Joey have great chemistry that is also very physically sweet

and they have sweet moments throughout this

-- love that his hand his on top of hers --

doesn’t change the writing, which is not - in my opinion - better than DJ’s, it’s the same, so yeah I would say they both know her and don’t know her in equal measure and neither relationship is actually built for sustainability.

[nikadoesanart]

My predictions on BSD getting animated going forward

I’ll be taking a look at the novel page counts (Japanese and English) and comparing them to the screen time they’ve gotten so far and then using this to predict how long the remaining light novel adaptations will be (approximately). At the end will also be my rough prediction/hopes for the order of some of these being adapted. I say some because I have yet to read what there is so far of the gaiden novel translations, the main story manga has essentially still been on the DOA arc almost since where the anime left off, and I personally think that it’s currently too soon for Storm Bringer (aside from money purposes).

Note, most of this was written well before the anime 5th anniversary livestream but the announcements wound up not affecting it. I then of course made adjustments as needed account for the novel content we do have so far, both in Japanese and in English (officially).

Page to Episode Count

Not counting the afterward, ads, etc for the English/US copy, Japanese is including it

Also all eng page counts are using the Yen Press release and jp page counts are taken from the fandom wiki

*148 is purely counting the Untold Origins portion of the novel. If we also count the A Day at the Agency short story that’s included before it (56 pages), then we get the full 203

Also the English page count for BEAST was noted before the English release date but after page counts have been posted by affiliated retailers, so subtract a couple pages from the written count of 176 for the time being to account for the afterward and possible character sheets being included

Now that we have our page to episode counts (as of April 5th, 2021), let’s find the actual content run time of what we do have animated so far.

Seasons 1-3 and the OVA all have the same episode length/duration. Each episode is 23 minutes, and we can subtract 3 minutes on average from that to account for the OP and ED being played. This leaves us with an average of 20 minutes of BSD story content per episode. So on average, each of the first 3 seasons contain 240 minutes, or 4 hours, worth of story content.

Dead Apple’s total run time is 91 minutes, with the OP and ED making up 9 of those minutes. However, we do have a bit of the story content being played while the ED is playing (as sometimes happens in the anime as well). To keep the math simple, I’ll be approximating story content time at 82 minutes.

Apply these numbers to the novels that have been animated so far and this is (approximately) what we get:

Now let’s use these numbers to predict the screen time needed for the other novels

Note that we can’t really use Entrance Exam as a fair measure because of how much got cut out (just compare the run time of it to Dark Era and it speaks for itself). However, the numbers for Dark Era and Dead Apple are the best ones to use, as they both have minimal changes between anime and novel and both have official English translations currently available. Take out the approximate time taken up by OP/ED and and the numbers pretty much match up.

So with that being said, we can estimate Untold Origins (only) at approximately 3 eps/60 min and 55 Minutes at 1h 40-55min/100-115 min or 5-6 eps if it doesn’t get a movie. We can also estimate the A Day at the Detective Agency short story at the beginning of Untold Origins to take up about 1 ep, probably even a bit less.

1+ 3 + 5-6 = 9-10 episodes which isn’t enough for a full single cour season unless they all get put into one big OVA season, but also 10-11 eps (or less) seasons are a thing (ie. Fugou Keiji: Balance Unlimited, Blood Lad, Black Butler: Book of Circus, The Seven Deadly Sins: Signs of a Holy War, FLCL)

My personal predictions/hopes for the anime adaptation timeline going forward

This is considering the manga content, current “pausing/stopping points” what wouldn’t be too awkward, each of the novels relevancy/necessity to the main story manga, and assuming we continue with single cour (12-13 ep) seasons

Hopefully/ideally a 55 Minutes movie

S4: ch 54-70

Early S5 (preferably) or end of S4: Untold Origins or A Day at the Agency

S5: ch 71-88/around where we are now?

A Day at the Agency can, in my opinion at least, be chucked in at any point either as a single episode OVA or as the light novel content for s4 (maybe not even taking a full episode and then starting ch 54 in the last few minutes for example). Keep in mind that the current DOA arc is a long one and has plenty to it, so personally I think it may even be better to not include a novel adaptation in a future S4, as it would likely already be a right squeeze content wise. Remember, we also have a few XX.5 chapters that are continuations of the chapter directly before them.

I still need to read what’s currently available of the gaiden novel fan translations but it can probably be adapted at any point as well. I’m estimating approximately 5-6 eps as an OVA series. I don’t really think it would get a movie, partially because you can make it only so long, especially since it’s an anime movie and unlike Storm Bringer, it doesn’t have Chuuya to practically guarantee the profit.

BEAST also doesn’t directly impact the main story and can be adapted at virtually any point. However, seeing as we do have a live action confirmed for it and it’s page count lines up very closely with Dark Era, it can be either 4 eps or (more likely in my opinion) a movie, as it can be considered almost stand alone content.

Personally, I believe it is currently way too soon to animate Storm Bringer as it came out only a little over a month ago (as of writing this) and has minimal plot necessity as of ch 91, but I do believe it should be either split into 2 movies (a part 1 and part 2) or it would need 8 episodes, likely as an OVA season. If it were to get animated sooner than 55 Minutes or Untold Origins, which I believe to be very unlikely, I feel that it would almost certainly be driven by the financial gains of Chuuya being included, and his popularity alone. Reminder, SB is about Chuuya and not SKK. Dazai’s appearance in SB is proportionally a very small percentage and he’s not even mentioned in the official plot summary.

However, you can argue that SB is starting to have some relevance now, with the recent mention of the Order of the Clock Tower in ch 90 and the increased relevance of sealed ability weapons in ch 91. However, I really do believe that you can’t adapt Storm Bringer before 55 Minutes because of Standard Island and its treaty, it also talks about sealed ability weapons, knowing who Wells is, and 55 Minutes canonically takes place during the “downtime” portion of S3. In fact, here’s Asagiri’s words directly from the Afterward (translation by Yen Press):

“this volume didn’t take place in the past, but rather sometime after the tenth volume of the manga. In other words, it’s a tale about the ‘usual’ detective agency in novel format.” (55 minutes, p 237)

Untold Origins also should be adapted sooner rather than later (at least compared to SB in my opinion) because it’s about Ranpo and Fukuzawa’s shared past, which becomes increasingly relevant ch 70 onwards, as well as the need for the ADA being founded (which ties in with Yosano’s backstory in ch 65-66).

In regards to whether I think each of these would be better suited to a movie adaptation or as multiple regular length anime episodes, it’s mainly due to page count and partly due to the budget difference between the two, as well as how difficult I think it would be to animate each of these based on what needs to be drawn. The anime industry isn’t the fastest to switch to newer technology, hence why we see issues with 3D blending sometimes. I really do think that at the very least, 55 Minutes deserves the movie budget because of how detailed and complex the architecture of Standard Island is described as, as well all the mechanical parts needed for the final battle of the novel. Hate the lizard mouths introduced in Dead Apple all you want, but you can’t deny that the 3D cgi was blended very smoothly. For any of the other novels to be movies, it’s more so because gaiden and BEAST can be considered their own stand alone stories that don’t rely too heavily on the main story in terms of when they take place and get adapted. I feel that SB is more likely to get its own season or an OVA season more so due to its length, but multiple part anime movies have also been done before (ie. the Fate/Stay Night: Heaven’s Feel movies), so it’s not entirely impossible. Especially considering that merely having any Chuuya screen time means that you can expect the profit and popularity to really go up, especially with SKK being on screen together (regardless of whether you love or hate how the fandom tends to push a shipping POV on them).

These are all of course just my hopes and predictions and estimates based on information currently available, so take them with some salt. I’d love to hear opinions on how, when, and why each of the currently non animated novels should be adapted going forward. Also please stop begging the relevant BSD official Twitter pages for SB to be animated next and go read the other light novels you Chuuya simp