#2009 era batfam stuff

[fancyfade]

It's always weird to see fandom interpretations of dick and damians 2009 era dynamic where dick was trying hard to step up as a parental figure when... he was literally not. Like dick didn't want to be damians dad*, damian didn't want dick to be his dad. Dicks main concerns were crushing expectations of legacy and stopping crime. He gave damian detective training and combat training, but he wasn't really trying to be a dad figure he read a lot more to me as someone who was like. If things aren't broken don't fix them. And like importantly. Dick did viewed damian as an obligation at first. He did generally not have a super high opinion of him or treat him like a regular kid. Thinking of specifically MULTIPLE INSTANCES in which damian may be in some type of danger (captured, or alone with a supervillain ,or injured) and dick is like "I'm not worried about HIM" or is just generally emotionally in something else.

Damian is often left on his own devices during the day which happens to work bc he has insane work ethic and self discipline.

*this isn't to say that one can't imagine they eventually get this dynamic, but I'm talking about canonically during Bruce is dead era

[michaeljoncarter]

What are your alltime favorite comics? Or just comics that you would recommend? Especially stuff that someone new could pick up without too much back reading to understand? You don't have to answer this if you don't want to but I'm looking for recommendations to branch out from just Batman/Batfam and just thought I'd ask!

this is all just off the top of my head, so i'm probably leaving out some Classics on accident, but (in no particular order):

Aquaman: Andromeda

Green Lantern (1990) (from Emerald Twilight (#48) on)

Gotham by Midnight

The Man of Steel (1986)

The Death & Return of Superman (Death of Superman, Funeral for a Friend/World Without a Superman, and Reign of the Supermen)

Superman: Last Son (Action Comics #844 - 846, #851, Annual #11)

Superman: Brainiac (Action Comics #866 - 870) & The New Krypton Saga (concludes with War of the Supermen, which is for some reason not on that reading guide)

World's Finest (2009)

Green Arrow: Year One

Green Lantern/Green Arrow

Green Arrow (1988)

The New Teen Titans (1980), Tales of the Teen Titans, and The New Teen Titans (1984)

Outsiders (2003)

Arsenal (1998)

Titans (1999)

Titans (2008)

Deathstroke (2016)

Steel (1994)

Aquaman: Time & Tide

L.E.G.I.O.N.

R.E.B.E.L.S. (all good, but i especially love from #15 on for kory content)

Aquaman: Death of a Prince

Tempest (1996)

the whole war of light era of green lantern, which i have a bigass reading guide for, but Red Lanterns & Red Daughter of Krypton in particular

Convergence: The Titans

Convergence: Green Lantern/Parallax

Convergence: Green Lantern Corps

Valor (1992) (the first few issues kind of drag, but it picks up quick (after #10, specifically)! the D.O.A. arc is an all-time fave for sure, and Valor #19 might actually be my all-time favorite single comic book issue point blank period)

roy's titans era (New Titans #100 - 130)

The Trial of Superman & Reign of Doomsday (these have literally nothing to do with each other, but we're grouping them together because neither one of them is particularly good. i mean, they're not terrible or anything, but really, they're only faves because i'm a huge sucker for storylines that involve the entire superfam lol)

Superman: The Black Ring (this one is here just because i appreciate how incredibly HECTIC it is. lex 1v1s a gorilla in the middle of the jungle, meets death, becomes a space god, builds a lois sexbot that ends up having been possessed by brainiac the entire time. also slade is there for like 2 pages solely to lose his shit and run around screaming like a little girl. the best kind of comic book insanity. magnifique)

those 5 minutes pre-reboot where damian joined the titans in a way that wasn't annoying as hell (Teen Titans (2003) #88 - 91, Red Robin #20, Teen Titans (2003) #92)

Wonder Woman (1987) (post-crisis ww & superman are both all-time faves, but this is a much better standalone read because it's way more self-contained & not constantly jumping between 9 different titles. again, all good imo, but i'm much more partial to everything post-artemis's introduction in #90 <3)

Superboy (1994) (ngl, i didn't super love the majority of this book. there's a LOT of good for sure, but it is very 90s, and that's not always a good thing. it's not terrible (apart from the romance aspect), and i'd still recommend reading it for sure, but there was definitely a lot of skimming and skipping around when i read through. ~#59 is where i started to find myself skimming a lot less, so if you find yourself having a hard time getting into it, too, i'd say just start there, then go back & read the earlier issues later)

post-crisis superman in general (so good, but holy fuck is it a pain in the ass to read. there were 600 superman titles running at all times, and EVERY single arc bounced between damn near all of them. i really want to make a ridiculously long reading guide for it, too, one day, but for now, you can fight your way through using this with me, if you'd like)

i'm still just starting to break into legion comics myself, so i don't think i can really give good recs for them just yet. i'm really enjoying them so far, though, so it's worth a mention. if you enjoy just jumping right into the deep end with 0 context like i do, i just started the 90s legion halfway through via superboy & valor. no idea what the hell's going on or who anybody is half the time, but that's just part of the fun. it's like sink-or-swim style language immersion but for ridiculous comic book people who talk entirely in references i don't understand even a little

i started with the valor arc in Superboy (1994) #17 - 19, then the following the Future Tense arc, and i just kinda kept reading Legionnaires & Legion of Super-Heroes (1989) from there. also picked up The Legion (2001) with #25, where kon joins up, with zero context for anything that'd happened before in that. this is an objectively terrible way of doing things, but also very fun as long as you don't mind a learning curve

also special mentions for a couple single issues that have always stuck out to me for some reason:

Justice League of America (2006) #11 (feel the need to put like... a claustrophobia warning on this one lol? a very anxiety-inducing read! be warned!)

Superman #712 (krypto-centric issue post-kon's death in Infinite Crisis. makes me want to scream every time i think abt it <3)

and i know you probably meant dc, but tbh most of my All Time Faves are marvel, so i have to mention a few:

X-23 (there are like 3 different volumes, and they're all so incredibly 2000s. i love them all dearly)

Wolverine: Origins

Captain America (2005)

Winter Soldier: Winter Kills

Avengers/Invaders

Old Man Logan (2015) & (2016)

Black Widow (2010)

Marvels (1994)

The Torch (2008)

Gambit (2012)

Gambit & Bishop: Sons of the Atom

Rogue (2004) (not good. kind of objectively terrible, actually, but i love rogue and i love rogue & shiro's relationship AND i love the bisexual implications with blindspot, so… here we are. if you aren't a huge rogue fan already, you will almost certainly not enjoy this lol)

Dark Wolverine & Daken: Dark Wolverine (THE absolute fave. akihiro is what a good % of the batfandom thinks jason todd is/was. bisexual, evil, obsessed with his own father. check, check, and check with a weird, violently homoerotic relationship with the punisher the cherry on top. also marjorie liu stealth confirming johnny storm's bisexuality via putting him in an absurdly toxic relationship with akihiro for like 2 issues remains both incredibly iconic and absolutely hilarious to me. 10/10/10)

in terms of more recent comics, i've pretty much only been keeping up with marvel

Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty (2022) (pretty much everything else going on (esp everything with bucky) is kind of annoying, but it has my favorite steve characterization like… maybe ever)

New Mutants (2019) (yeah, everything about krakoa era x-men is just kind of inherently annoying, but this one came outta left field near the end there with some of my favorite writing for madelyne pryor in a while and the dani moonstar & madelyne pryor enemies-to-lovers arc i didn't know i needed but am now fully obsessed with)

Midnight Suns (2022) (love a good rag-tag team of characters who have no business being on a team together. substitute teacher blade is such a powerful concept, it immediately made this an all-timer for me, and logan being drawn approximately 4ft shorter than everyone around him cemented it as a 10/10)

aaand finally, i've also really been enjoying dynamite lately. Vampirella/Red Sonja (2019) is where i got onboard with them. you don't have to know jack about these characters or universe beforehand (i didn't!), and i really can't recommend it enough, especially if you're someone who loves stories with time travel and/or bisexual vampire women

this is so messy, and i'm definitely forgetting a lot here lol, but hopefully this helps & you find something you like! good luck & have fun!

[teleportationmagic]

9 15 and 19 for the dc asks meme!

9: Which noncanon book do you consider canon?

this is a tricky one! Most of the noncanon stuff I read is specifically elseworlds stuff which doesn't slot super neatly into the rest of canon. I'm have tempted to pick the DCeased hope at worlds end not for the whole book but if I could kinda surgically remove the Damian & Steph dynamic, it is an interesting continuation of the Batgirl era relationship they had, and they're not exactly expanding that anywhere else. (save Robins.) (Which is also noncanon but also. nahhh)

NO WAIT just remember that the Oracle code is not canon and yeah, that. Not necassarily to a pre52 canon - I do really like the inherent intertextuality of Oracle Y1 - but to a more modern canon where the specific critiques of that book make less and less sense as it's further and further in the past, I am fond. It's in many ways a softer retelling of that story, but it keeps all her rough edges. She gets to be clever and understood and kinda standoffish, and I miss it.

15: Favourite Jason Todd

I am a sucker for Lost Days era Jason, but I find the current day Rosenberg Jason really really fascinating. It's a much softer Jason, for sure, but like. There's enough edge for it to really wrap together well. It also acknowledges specifically how much Jason is just a mess without ever stripping him of all his competency. Plus I really like how he's drawn.

19: Worst Supergirl

I kinda need to confess here that my experience outside the batfam is kinda. Lacking. I've read a few supergirls - the Tom King run, her in Batgirl 2009, her death in Infinite Crisis - and I would probably pick the Batgirl era supergirl just off of not really getting to see (yet) more of her emotional moments, but this is very much based off little information. I am very fond, do not get me wrong, but limited.

[carrotkicks]

Hey I’m so sorry if this is too tall of an ask (feel free to ignore it) but now that Tim has been confirmed bi I was thinking of getting back into dc a bit and wondered if you had Tim recommendations (as well as any other general recs)? I am also super sorry if this has been asked before. Anyway, I also wanted to say I love your art and hope you have a nice day! <3

hi. got a lot of similar asks but you're the lucky one that got answered

Tim Drake reading order bc EVERYONE’S been asking me holy cow

**In chronological order, with notes for where things generally fall in the timeline. More specific than the "ULTIMATE Canon Batfam Comic Rec List." **

Pre-Robin

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying - origin

Detective Comics (1937) - pre Robin, editorial angst mandate

Batman (1940) #455-#457 - pre Robin/ first solo mission

Early Robin/Pre-Ongoing

Robin I (1991) - first miniseries. Training era

Robin II (1991) - second miniseries. Tim vs the Joker

Robin III (1992) - third miniseries. Team up with Huntress

Batman Knightfall - Tim + AzBat Dynamic Duo *only the first part*

Batman: Prodigal - Tim + DickBat Dynamic Duo

Beginning of Ongoing to OYL

Robin (1993) #1-60 - beginning of solo - NML

Nightwing (1996) #25 - very fun team up with Dick Grayson

Robin (1993) #61-100 - NML to end of YJ

Young Justice (1998) - team book starring Superboy, Impulse, Wonder Girl, and others. Floating around the timeline. Highly recommend

Robin #101-125 - Post yj - War Games

Young Justice: Graduation Day - YJ breaks up

Batman War Games - really bad just skip. Editorial angst mandate

DC Identity Crisis - miniseries starring various DC characters having a bad time. Editorial angst mandate

Robin #136-137 + Batgirl #58-59 - team up with Cass Cain Batgirl post War Game/Identity crisis

Teen Titans (2003) #1-35 - New Titans run starring the old YJ roster. Up to Infinite Crisis, generally falls in line with the rest of the books.

Robin #139-148 - post War Games to Infinite Crisis

One Year Later - End of Robin

Robin #149-156 - One Year Later for Robin. Evil Cass arc be warned! Also a good arc that follows

Teen Titans #35-idk - One Year Later for the Titans. Clone saga. Not my favorite stuff

Batman: Face the Face - One Year Later for Batman. Adoption time baby!

Robin #158-#183 - OYL to end of Robin solo

Batman: Batman and Son - Damian enters.

Batman: The Resurrection of Ra’s Al Ghul - just read it. Tim’s pretty unhinged

Batman: RIP - around Bruce's “death” hard to gauge timeline

Post-Robin/Red Robin

Batman: Battle for the Cowl - post Bruce's Death

Red Robin (2009) #1-9 - BruceQuest to the return to Gotham

Batgirl (2009) #8 - Crossover with Steph Brown Batgirl

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Bruce returns

Batman: Gates of Gotham - standalone story, also ft Cass and Damian.

Red Robin #10-26 - Collision to end of solo

Teen Titans (2003) #92 - rejoining the Titans

New 52

Don’t bother

Rebirth

Detective Comics (2016) #943-940 - rebirth. Fake out death

Detective Comics (2016) #968-981- comes back from comic limbo!

Young Justice (2019) - not very good but eh…

Infinite Frontier

Batman: Urban Legends #4-6 + #10-? - hot topic right now. Coming out time!

**That’s all of it! The ones that really matter anyways

[ectonurites]

can anybody please explain the appeal of tim drake because ive been into the batfamily for a while now and tbh im really confused on why people like his character so much compared to the other robins. like they all have their own thing going on and he just... doesnt?

Have you read his Robin solo? Because if not and you want to try to like him but just don’t understand why people do, that’s what I’d recommend. That and like, Young Justice 1998. 

Because Tim definitely... does have his own thing going on. Maybe not in the same way as the others, but like, there’s a reason he has a 183 issue long solo comic that ran for like 16 years: he was fun to read about!

But I will give some more specific thoughts on the subject as a Tim Drake Appreciator™ (this got long im sorry)

The appeal of Tim (especially early on Tim) is kinda the fact that he’s this more normal kid. For a while that is his ‘thing’. He was basically designed to be a self-insert (he definitely became more than that along the way, but from the start he was meant to be relatable) in a different way than how Dick and Jason had been before him. 

Like the role of Robin from the start was this way to create a character young readers could identify with more, could see themselves in more. And Dick and Jason did that, but they still had this element to their lives and stories that was more... unattainable for the average reader. Dick was a circus prodigy, Jason was either also a circus prodigy if we remember pre-crisis or if we go with his post-crisis story he’s this street-wise orphaned kid who had a really tough life but still went on to be a hero anyways. Obviously those lives are relatable for some people, but those’re definitely not as broadly recognized as common upbringings especially not by DC trying to market to the ‘average’ kid/young teen.

But the creation of Tim changed the game a bit. Dick and Jason were these aspirations a kid could look to like ‘wow I want to be cool like that!’ but Tim was a Robin designed for kids to look at and go ‘wow, his problems and civilian life are just like mine AND he’s a hero, I want to be cool like that!’, ya know? Tim was... just a clever kid with an average life who managed to connect some dots and had enough drive to want to fix things he saw were a problem, he didn’t have the same kind of heightened drama backstory the others did. The Robins that came after Tim definitely didn’t have this idea of relatability in mind the same way either. Unfortunately Steph’s time as Robin was much more of a marketing ploy than an actual like... decision to make her Robin, so it’s hard to really fit her into this conversation. But Damian from the start was first of all initially created not to be Robin but just as the son of Talia and Bruce back in the 80’s, but when he was later reimagined into the character that would become Robin he had the whole ‘raised by and is the heir to the league of assassins and is the son of batman’ thing going on still. He just was not supposed to be relatable that same way, he was a character designed with different things in mind.

I really think it was more just DC’s 90′s era younger-audience comics in general that tried to push that relatability thing (like in YJ how Cissie even after quitting the team stays a major character as a civilian throughout, and the civilian aspect that’s super present in Bart’s 90s solo too, etc), but later in the 2000’s that idea was definitely pushed to the side in favor of... putting in even more dramatic superhero-y stuff.

And the other thing that’s... such a more normal thing but it actually made him unique here, was that Tim’s dad was still alive until like 2004 (so 15 years into Tim being around as a character). This gave Tim a lot more typical ‘family school girlfriends normal life etc’ problems on top of/in contrast with his superhero problems. These just manifested in very different ways than they could with the other Robins because of that unique situation with a living civilian parent who doesn’t know about hero stuff (until he did find out which lead to that whole Unmasked thing, but there was only the brief time around War Games & Identity Crisis where Jack knew Tim was actively Robin and he was... still alive) Tim also had his life at school expanded way more than most other Robins, like, he had such an extended supporting cast of civilian friends which is a really interesting thing to read about (and the fact that he hasn’t had that stuff since the New 52 I think really hurts his character)

And then related to that loss of his dad... Personally another thing about Tim that really interests me is how a lot of things were more... his choice. if that makes sense. A lot of characters in the Batfamily were struck with tragedy/extreme trauma before they became heroes and that’s what spurred them into this life of becoming heroes. Tim’s situation wasn’t like that at all! When he first got involved in everything during Lonely Place of Dying, the only tragedy he’d experienced was watching Dick’s tragedy happen. Which sure yes traumatic obviously, but that’s not the same as how pretty much all the other Bats had gone through these very personal losses or other sorts of very first-hand personal traumas that served as motivators. Tim didn’t start to experience those things until after he got involved in the hero life, and aside from his Mom’s death which was more of just an unrelated incident (that technically happened before he was officially Robin but it was during his time training to become Robin), pretty much all these other tragedies and things... would not have happened or been experienced by him had he not become Robin. 

That’s not me placing blame on him or anything like that, because god no that’s not how that works, but it’s very interesting because from his point of view he definitely feels that guilt because he knows him being Robin played a role in a lot of it (Thinking specifically about in Adventure Comics #3 when Kon even says “I know what guilt does to you” to him like it’s... it’s a thing with him!). His dad was murdered because he was Robin. He only met Steph and started dating her through being Robin, and thus he would not have experienced the loss of his girlfriend dying like that had he not been Robin. Tim met both Conner and Bart through being Robin, and would not have had a personal connection to them when they died otherwise. The whole Bruce’s death thing after Final Crisis, like. I could go on honestly, that was only talking about losses not even his own experiences nearly getting killed, but yeah, all these personal tragedies were experienced by him specifically because he chose to bring himself into this life, which I think in turn plays into how throughout his comics you see him go from having this really optimistic view on things and being really hopeful to seeing him at that low point he reaches by the time of Red Robin. (thinking about that one post that points out how Tim started out in the 90′s as an optimist and Steph a cynic and by the time they were Red Robin and Batgirl in 2009 they had switched outlooks...) 

I also think that him having had such a great team book with the original Young Justice can help contribute to people liking him. His friendships with the rest of the core four and that team in general are really compelling. (and that’s something like again when looking at the other Robins, while Dick had the Titans ofc, Jason never really found footing with a team outside of like one mission with the Titans and then We All Know How Damian’s Teen Titans Stuff Went. Steph also only ever really worked with a team outside the batfam on very brief occasions) and even though I’m not as big of a fan of the 2003 Teen Titans run that came after YJ, people who read Young Justice and also that could follow and be attached to those same characters over a pretty decently long period of time. 

Idk man, I don’t really have an ultimate point here i’m just rambling. I can definitely understand not seeing the appeal to him right away (honestly i’ve been into Batfam since like 2013/2014 and Tim did not become one of my faves until 2020) especially if like... idk when you say ‘into the batfamily’ that can mean a lot of different things. If you’re reading more like the bigger events with the batfam sure Tim can kinda fade into the bg a bit, if you’re more talking about fanon the fanon version of him is prettyyyyy uhhhhh not really the same as how he was in pre New 52 canon, if you’re mainly reading New 52 era Batfam stuff then that Tim I also don’t understand the appeal of bc thats Not My Boy, if you’re interested in a different member primarily and only familiar with Tim when he shows up in things focused on that other character then it’s easy to not really understand the appeal right away bc he’s more there to support that character rather than shine in his own right. 

I think it’s also worth mentioning he’s just not everybody’s cup of tea, and that’s totally fine. Like, these are fictional characters and sometimes you just will vibe with a character and sometimes you won’t! idk if this helped at all or even made sense. but yeah. I just think he’s neat 😌

[thattimdrakeguy]

I couldn’t finish Batman and Robin 2009. It was just... mentally exhausting and I stopped shortly after Bat Dick put fake Bruce in the Lazarus pit. Based on his appearances in Teen Titans, Bruce Wayne: Road Home, as well as his big fan base, I assumed Damian’s character development was executed nicely in his own series. But then again in Gates of Gotham (literally read it just for Cass) he’s impulsive, arrogant and rude to Cass both to her face and behind her back-even after she saved his life 1

Don’t get me started on the sexist things he’s said to Steph. I want to like Damian, but writers don’t make it easy. I got into comics because of batfam fanfics and he was a fave of mine. Dude was extra violent and displayed borderline sociopathic tendencies in his first appearances, cool beans. There’s a lot they can do with a character like that. I just felt like his bad behaviour was never properly dealt with before B&R, and I couldn’t muster the energy to see him through his own series. 2/2

IMO, Damian felt like a Gary Stu at times.

I don’t know if that last one was from the same person or not, but I just got the feeling it is, and if it’s not, then well it blends well enough and don’t feel the need to answer it separately.

Like all I can really say is that I don’t really like Damian. A lot of people confuse that for me thinking he’s an evil monster. I imagine cause I have a Tim icon and other Tims do rage on about that every now and again. As well as just plain taking things I say the wrong way (though I have probably said things in the moment I imagine). But I just plain don’t really like his writing, and if I can’t really read a comic he’s in that I actually like. Idk, I just find it weird to say I like him, when all I really like is what he could be. I don’t feel like that really equals me liking him, cause when I think about it, I kinda realized that meant the opposite, and didn’t wanna project the wrong idea.

But I wanna say this about Damian. He is insanely inconsistent as a personality and character. To this very day. So, as I do with every character, I start from the beginning, figure out what was meant to be by the writers that helped develop them, and figure out what’s in-character and out of character from there. I just feel like it’s the most objective way I can look at anything if I want to review things with standards that are more than just “I like this” or “I don’t like that”.

And in the case of Damian he’s never not been inconsistent. Like one of the main reasons I reread Batman and Robin (or at least Morrison’s run) was for plans of a post about flanderization in the Bat-Family, cause it was pretty rampant in the 00s and still continues often to this very day, and I think is the cause of a lot of lost sales and unhappiness and overall fandom diminishment.

However also to say it, I liked to see a lot of what Damian could be within B&R 09.

But anyways, basically just because I can’t really do a part of the post on Damian without trying to figure out what he was like to begin with, and what he was supposed to be per his creator.

Cause you can’t really tell in fandom. Cause his most popular comics are from stuff that isn’t in the main universe and was purposely a lot lighter, or in the main universe from writers that really surprisingly didn’t get the character despite the popularity--which continues my thinking on it was less about the quality of the writing and more about the lazy fan service. They honestly really flanderized him in a similar yet opposite way then what they did with Tim in the 00s.

And while I can’t act like the sexism and homophobia wasn’t an actual part of the character of Damian at the time--he shows both of those traits in the series (at least the homophobia, cause I’m now realizing that I might be thinking of another series for the sexism). He was flanderized even then by other writers from the different series.

Like how he’s written in Red Robin, is not freaking Damian. It’s not Damian to me. I don’t accept it as Damian. Even a lot of the content of him in Batgirl I even less feel like is Damian--besides unfortunately some of the sexist comments, but they never really proper developed him on that as far as like--actively showing that, at least that I can recall. So all I can really say is it’s uncomfortable, and how they don’t delve into it is the only real reason I say “That actually sadly does fit in with him”. But it’s not like it doesn’t make sense, he was raised to fight, not to handle emotions or feelings, he probably would do and say really creepy things when he has a crush--I just wish they’d actually acknowledge that what was going on rather than sacrificing a good story for more fan service.

The other writers make him too much of a bratty, snotty, kid. And I found that, that is an absolutely terrible interpretation of Damian, because beyond his origin, he isn’t a typical brat, and he doesn’t really act like a kid (in some ways yes, but general mannerisms and personality no). And even then he was a different kind of brat. He was entitled and bitchy in his origin, not immature (at least in the same way) and snotty. They have him act more like some spoiled brat from next door rather than a kid that was abused into being obedient to be what his abusive mother wanted (Talia shouldn’t be abusive, but like I said before, I think the series sucked overall for reasons like that and more).

(I also find that stupid line cutting scene in RR where I presume he was trying to kill Tim to be even stupider, cause Damian wouldn’t freaking do that at that point. They make Damian come off as so stupid in that issue, I hate it. Cause it was all just a cheap way to force sympathy for him, but it doesn’t even make sense when you think about it and is a huge stretch.)

Damian doesn’t make jokes when he’s written better--it’s like his thing. He’s got quite the temper, and understandably why of course. He’s violent with criminals, but he’s also mostly just stoic as his base state when not in a stressed situation, and even shows remorse (which is a big stretch from his origin, but I blame that on the writing which could be very rushed and lazy). He was treated like just another adult for the most part, and it had a weirdly endearing quality despite the maturity of it, and general edge of the series. It was Damian’s place and it worked really well. It just felt right for their dynamics. Damian’s a unique kid, and they respected him for who he was. He just needed help on his morals and stability.

But other series didn’t really get that. He would still be really rude like his origin, and not really the same tone of rudeness (I’m not sure if I can really explain what I mean by that), he’s aggressive, but putting him in Teen Titans never made sense to me, because I don’t see Dick doing that. Dick had a lot more respect than to force Damian to do something like that. Dick was more patient, and while he did lightly smack (not any kind to hurt him any. literally to demonstrate without pain. more taps really) him to teach him a point about aesthetical weaknesses in his costume like the hood, it was mostly done out of finding a way to teach him that would speak to him. So just forcing him to do something he didn’t want to do--which would clearly not work on him--was just contrived and plain bad writing wise. Something they did more as a stunt so they can say “TITANS NOW HAS THE SON OF BATMAN” than to use him well or continue his story in a natural way.

With Cass I can’t say anything, because that’s like the one time he talks to her, and that basically shows their dynamic. So that’s just them, I can’t really say anything on it. If he felt challenged by her I could see him being a total jerk. It really depends on the scenes themselves. I never read the series myself cause I genuinely really don’t like that Batman Reborn era of Bat-Family. Too much of it was just done for publicity and random changes, and for the most part didn’t work much to me.

But overall, at the same time, despite me singing the praises of what Damian could be, and was for a little while. The overall writing for the character arc was super lazy. Stuff just kind of happens, and way too quick to fit in with what they introduced. He just kind of goes “this is right, now”, which makes his whole brainwashing thing feel a bit--useless, and makes how he went from chopping heads off to that in very little time sort of cuts out depth that could’ve really made the series more rereadable. Damian actually comes off surprisingly as a very flat character for stretches of time in the issues because his character arc is never focused on as much as you’d think until they need to be like “Oh yeah...uh, here’s an emotional moment”. Which just felt really cheap to me.

So the series to me isn’t worth it if you want a good story. None of the stories were good to me, I think I was questioning each one cause it was either schlocky, out of character, or both. I know people like Grant Morrison, but they aren’t for me, I’m not a fan of their writing. Damian was a Gary Stu a lot, which they try to explain with the League thing--but having the League give him experimental surgery so he could walk the same day (or next) after being legitimately paralyzed was just way too freaking much to me. But he does make mistakes, so he’s not at base a Gary Stu really--the writing just really stunk badly sometimes.

This isn’t me putting in a bid to say “OH YOU JUST NEED TO READ THIS, AND YOU’LL FREAKING LOVE HIM”, because to be freaking honest, when you already have a bad taste in your mouth, it’s best to just wait a bit till trying again. I read the fandom recommended comics and felt there was so many problems that I couldn’t read Damian for literal months. And he still has a lot of the problems you said. I’m just saying Damian is surprisingly different when written by his creator than others, cause honestly nearly every single other writer for him has gotten him wrong. Like mind-blowingly wrong. He does not feel like the same character anywhere else. It’s nuts.

To put it another way, it’s a generally speaking bad series, but if you want to see what Damian was meant to be like before they kept regressing him, and diminishing him, and turning him into more a joke, and see what his dynamic with Dick and Alfred was meant to be like, it’s a brilliant and perfect series to read it for.

It’s better for learning about them--then it actually is to enjoy it. Because it’s most likely not a series I’m going to be returning too often unless to research something again.

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whenever people want to act like the batfam was generally more unified or supportive of damian when he just got there (like acting like dick was very soft and always saying the right thing, ignoring when he was judgmental towards Damian or assumed the worst of him or said the wrong things, ignoring Tim's general judgmentalness and way of speaking/thinking about damian that can be dehumanizing) that's so boring.............. why would u wanna be boring......

like damian can be hard to like and a lot of the adults in his life act like he's hard to like. like he knows this! he's got a tough exterior and lashes out. you can't remove a lot the "reasons damian lashes out or doesn't feel accepted" without removing a lot of the damian-lashing-out stuff.

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2009 era Damian reading

As I've been doing my 2009 era Damian reading, I'm trying to condense the good stuff and bad stuff, and things I believe are relevant for his character. These are in addition to what I assume is obvious (Batman and Robin 2009, the comic where he has a starring role).

Battle for the Cowl: this has how Damian becomes Robin. It's not necessarily good. Daniels really does not understand Damian, especially this early in his writing, but it does have some important context for things going down b/c Damian helps Squire save Tim's life, and we can see Dick viewing training Damian as something he is responsible for.

Secret Origins (2014) #4: This is a much more in character Damian becoming Robin, though fit for a condensed new 52 timeline that leaves some stuff out (like Damian's rocky intro with Bruce).

Batman #688 (Long Shadows part 1): Winick seems one of the early writers who does a Damian as he lines up with later characterization (views himself more as a professional assassin), so I think this one's good.

Batman: streets of Gotham #1-6: damian makes some minor appearances here.

Batgirl #5-7: Always take Damian's guest-starring stuff with a grain of salt, as often times writers just go with "how would an obnoxious 10 year old boy act here" without understanding he's a specific kind of obnoxious 10 year old boy... that said I do like some of his interactions with Steph, and I think it's incredibly important that we see Damian defends his competence based on his training, not on his blood.

Like he'll sometimes justify why he belongs based on his blood (which like... no one acts like they want him around), but he isn't going around saying "I'm better than you b/c I'm batman's son". he was trained intensely since birth (and that's why he should say he's better than you :P)

Batman #692-697: not a ton of Damian in this, and it is Daniel's writing, but he's a little better than he was in Battle for the Cowl. We see Dick training Damian some.

Batman: Streets of Gotham #7, #10-#11: love this plotline for him. Good show of competence and characterization.

Blackest night: batman: More focused on Tim and Dick, and Tomasi sucks at writing Babs, but at there is some Damian content that I remember enjoying.

Red Robin #11-15: as long as you read this one with your brain turned on, it's good for explaining some Tim and Damian stuff. Sadly some fans are like "woooo arrogant 10 year old gets beat up". Nicieza makes some missteps (frames Tim's thinking around Damian as coldly logical, when it is anything but and he is reacting from a place of emotion), but one can ignore those.

Batman #703: shows Damian's character pretty well in a default Batman and Robin adventure, and his relationship (or lackthereof) with Bruce and his dynamic with Dick and Alfred

Teen Titans #88-92 (including Red Robin #20 in a crossover plot): surprised by how well I liked this one. I think it portrays Damian pretty fairly, and we can see that he is trying hard, but hasn't been given a lot of support up until now (or even now, Dick kind of just drops him off with a bunch of older kids who all also have issues and are predisposed to disliking him XD). His dynamic with rose is fun and I think it is notable how quickly he does acquiesce to following Cassie's orders when she's like (at first) the only Teen Titan who is OK with him being there and assures him its not personal when she makes a comment he doesn't like.

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batman and Robin: Has some nice Dick and Damian banter, showcases how they've worked together well

Batgirl #17: more damian and steph interactions.

I will probably add more (either editing this post or in a reblog) as I keep reading.

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i like to think that dick tried to take damian through some of the same steps that he did for tim on his early training with tim, but b/c tim was a civilian and damian was trained as an assassin and ra's' heir, their reactions are very different. i like to think that dick tries taking damian to a random public place without telling him what to do in hopes of trolling him (lol u didn't memorize everyone coming by??? I did) and damian is like pointing out whoever he thinks might be carrying a weapon or up to something constantly and is like 'wait whats the mission are we looking out for that guy?' and dicks like "UGH! no mission fine lets go home'.

similarly u know when damian wore the hood up on his cape and dick tried to sucker punch him (to prove that it was a mistake peripheral vision wise) and damian blocked and lectured him about being able to fight blind u know dick was groaning that he wasn't going to be able to do blindfolded train hopping with damian... at least not in an instructory capacity XD dick goes home like the sad ant with the bundle

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This bit is interesting (and very apropos IMO)

Teen Titans #92

And like! They both do give the other one plenty of reason for him to think "oh (tim/damian) thinks he's better than me and that I don't belong!" Fandom is pretty aware of what Damian does that expresses this, but often ignores what Tim does that expresses it. I like that Teen Titans shows them in pretty equal light here.

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Damian being pretentious about art I love him

Batman #706

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Finding out that Richard enlisted another superhero in this endeavor makes Damian feel a little foolish. It’s one thing for Father’s people to be aware of his goal. They at least presumably understand, as they have their own less-than-necessary hobbies to improve themselves as people. But someone else might take it the wrong way. They might think he’s being… frivolous. Not as if it matters what they think! No one else has the authority to judge him. But he’s still aware he may have to defend his competence, if his actions are misread. “Maybe this will actually be fun,” Richard prattles as he’s driving the Batmobile, flying it through the air. “You can meet some of my friends!” “I’ve already met your friends,” Damian says, because he has. “You and Gordon brought Red Arrow and Black Canary up to Gotham for that one mission.” “That’s one friend,” Richard says. “I have more.” keep reading

More Damian gets overly invested in ping-pong fluff fic.... I have been feeling a Damian fic mood this weekend if you cannot tell.

(Sadly the instance Damian refers to about inviting Roy and Dinah over has not yet been written, it's just something I know happens and really want to make happen in my fanfic notes).

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Red Robin era Tim: Fuck you Dick! Fuck you Cassie! Fuck you Steph! Don't try to be there for me! I'm going running away and leaving Gotham, and I'm taking my evidence that Bruce might be alive with me! Red Robin era Tim: ... Red Robin era Tim: Wait why am I all alone and no one but a supervillain believes me about Bruce being alive?

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There is of course also the possibility that Dick tried to do conventionally parental stuff for Damian at first and then got utterly humiliated the first time he grounded Damian* and it had absolutely no effect and Damian snuck out immediately and he was like "NVM I give up"

*in DC holiday Special

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Daniel's Batman keeps leaving Robin at home, batman this is why Robin keeps having to save you

Batman #706

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Dick trying to get Selina to un-cat-girl Kitrina but he's got no foot to stand on XD

Batman #704

Given that we don't see Dick trying to get Damian regular life stuff and normal kid school in pre new 52*, I am curious how he feels about this wrt Damian.

*I headcanon that Alfred's got some homeschool program going on in my fanfics, but its just a headcanon