actually i'm still thinking about the moral orel finale.
he has a cross on his wall. do you know how much i think about that bc it's a lot.
a lot of stories ((auto)biographical or fictional) centering escape from abusive/fundamentalist christianity result in the lead characters leaving behind christianity entirely. and that makes complete sense! people often grow disillusioned with the associated systems and beliefs, and when it was something used to hurt them or something so inseparable from their abuse that they can't engage with it without hurting, it makes total sense that they would disengage entirely. and sometimes they just figure out that they don't really believe in god/a christian god/etc. a healthy deconstruction process can sometimes look like becoming an atheist or converting to another religion. it's all case by case. (note: i'm sure this happens with other religions as well, i'm just most familiar with christian versions of this phenomenon).
but in orel's case, his faith was one of the few things that actually brought him comfort and joy. he loved god, y'know? genuinely. and he felt loved by god and supported by him when he had no one else. and the abuses he faced were in how the people in his life twisted religion to control others, to run away from themselves, to shield them from others, etc. and often, orel's conflicts with how they acted out christianity come as a direct result of his purer understanding of god/jesus/whatever ("aren't we supposed to be like this/do that?" met with an adult's excuse for their own behavior or the fastest way they could think of to get orel to leave them alone (i.e. orel saying i thought we weren't supposed to lie? and clay saying uhhh it doesn't count if you're lying to yourself)). the little guy played catch with god instead of his dad, like.. his faith was real, and his love was real. and i think it's a good choice to have orel maintain something that was so important to him and such a grounding, comforting force in the midst of. All That Stuff Moralton Was Up To/Put Him Through. being all about jesus was not the problem, in orel's case.
and i know i'm mostly assuming that orel ended up in a healthier, less rigid version of christianity, but i feel like that's something that was hinted at a lot through the series, that that's the direction he'd go. when he meditates during the prayer bee and accepts stephanie's different way to communicate, incorporating elements of buddhism into his faith; when he has his I AM A CHURCH breakdown (removing himself from the institution and realizing he can be like,, the center of his own faith? taking a more individualistic approach? but Truly Going Through It at the same time), his acceptance (...sometimes) of those who are different from him and condemned by the adults of moralton (stephanie (lesbian icon stephanie my beloved), christina (who's like. just a slightly different form of fundie protestant from him), dr chosenberg (the jewish doctor from otherton in holy visage)). his track record on this isn't perfect, but it gets better as orel starts maturing and picking up on what an absolute shitfest moralton is. it's all ways of questioning the things he's been taught, and it makes sense that it would lead to a bigger questioning as he puts those pieces together more. anyway i think part of his growth is weeding out all the lost commandments of his upbringing and focusing on what faith means to him, and what he thinks it should mean. how he wants to see the world and how he wants to treat people and what he thinks is okay and right, and looking to religion for guidance in that, not as like. a way to justify hurting those he's afraid or resentful of, as his role models did.
he's coming to his own conclusions rather than obediently, unquestioningly taking in what others say. but he's still listening to pick out the parts that make sense to him. (edit/note: and it's his compassion and his faith that are the primary motivations for this questioning and revisal process, both of individual cases and, eventually, the final boss that is christianity.) it makes perfect sense as the conclusion to his character arc and it fits the overall approach of the show far better. it's good is what i'm saying.
and i think it's important to show that kind of ending, because that's a pretty common and equally valid result of deconstruction. and i think it cements the show's treatment of christianity as something that's often (and maybe even easily) exploited, but not something inherently bad. something that can be very positive, even. guys he even has a dog he's not afraid of loving anymore. he's not afraid of loving anyone more than jesus and i don't think it's because he loves this dog less than bartholomew (though he was probably far more desperate for healthy affection and companionship when he was younger). i think it's because he figures god would want him to love that dog. he's choosing to believe that god would want him to love and to be happy and to be kind. he's not afraid of loving in the wrong way do you know how cool that is he's taking back control he's taking back something he loves from his abusers im so normal
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I wouldn't really agree that boys are just arm candy in magical girl shows and only there to look cute. Yeah, sure the girls' friendships are the focus, but the boys are usually very much involved in the plot and most shows do explore their feelings about the odd things that happen due to magical shenanigans even if they aren't in the know (It's why ML baffles me even more with how they screwed up Adren's arc when he's the deuteragonist, when all these boys are supporting cast and get well rounded arcs)
I'm not much of a winx fan, but the specialists were very much not arm candy. Did the girls talk about them being cute? Yes, it's what teenage girls do. Did the narrative suggest they were good looking? Yes, but that's standard for most love interests in any genre. But we still got scenes with them talking amongst themselves about how they themselves feel and they got a fair share of badass fight scenes even if they wield no magic. A large amount of episodes actually included the boys and girls working as a team solving a mystery or fighting a villain. The girls might deal the finishing blow but the boys were still integral to the plot.
I hope this doesn't come across as hate, it definitely wasn't my intention. I'm just a bit too passionate about the magical girl genre.
I do think you have a good point with ML having a problem choosing a genre or blending two genres successfully.
For the CCS fans, I will add though that Cardcaptor Sakura had both Tomoyo and Syaoran serve as sources of motivation for Sakura. And both Sakura and Syaoran collecting cards even if Sakura is the only one who could seal them and yet never made you question whether Syaoran was even necessary for the job the way ml does with Chat.
I wasn't trying to say that boys have no part to play in magical girl team shows or that they're always treated as having no lives beyond the girls, that's why I mentioned that the Winx Club boys - aka, the Specialists - have their own (mostly off screen) lives and occasionally show up help the girls:
the boys are usually off doing their own thing and only occasionally show up for a date or to give the girls a ride on their cool bikes or magical spaceship
Even then, this is certainly a simplification of the roles that they play in the story, but I kind of had to simplify their roles down to their base components for the original post's discussion as I was talking in broad strokes of how these stories are written.
In terms of those broad strokes, the Specialists are absolutely only there for shipping fodder. That's why each one is assigned to a girl from the start and why their main role in the narrative is supporting their assigned love interest or causing relationship-based drama for their assigned love interest. If it weren't for shipping, then the Specialists would not exist.
While the Specialists do have fleshed out characters and may even effect the plot, the execution of those elements is designed around the girls. A really obvious example of this is the character Timmy, who has character development as the boy's tech guy. Why is he into technology? Because he's the designated love interest for the fairy of Technology and we have to show why they're a good match. Along similar lines, the boys don't really get plots that are removed from the girls because this is the girl's show. Every episode features one or more of the Winx, but the boys are optional and often don't appear.
This is because, narratively speaking, the boys are just love interests and that brings us back to Miraculous' big problem. You can't have a show where Adrien is written like a Specialist while also being part of the Winx Club and where Alya is written like she's part of the Winx Club while technically being more of a Specialist in terms of power set and actual narrative role.
I'm was thinking back to my memories of various Winx Club plots to find one that really highlighted what I mean here and I remembered that one of the big dramas in season one was the reveal that Bloom's love interest - Sky - was in an arranged marriage and had just never told her. As it turns out, that's a great example of what I'm talking about re Adrien!
Is that plot line technically based around Sky and letting his life effect the plot? Sure, but the fallout of that reveal revolves around Bloom, not Sky. The story doesn't really care how Sky's feeling as the conflict progresses. Instead, it focuses on how it affects Bloom and her friends because of course it does! She's the main character. It would be really weird if that plot suddenly focused on her side character love interest and his friends during one of her darkest hours/biggest moments.
Think of that and then consider how the ending of season five is written. Notice any similarities? Sure, this is Adrien's family drama, but because he's just a Specialist, the focus isn't on him. It's on Winx Club member Marinette and Adrien only shows up at the end for a kiss. That is the problem. That is what I'm talking about when I say that Miraculous will randomly write him as if we're watching a magical girl team show where Adrien is just the love interest.
In fact, let's really dig into this example because it's a good one.
You can have a look at the transcript for the finale episode of Miraculous season five here and see for yourself that Adrien doesn't even show up on screen until the final scenes when the big drama is over. The Winx Club wiki also has episode transcripts, so I took a look to see what happened in Winx land during the arranged marriage reveal plot (I love that this is a thing. It's so useful for fact checking myself!) This is the script for the episode after Bloom learns the truth. Sky does not appear even though his lies and family drama are the fuel for this episode's events, which are a major part of the season's arc. Note how perfectly that matches Adrien's writing?
Similarly, Sky's dialogue in the reveal episode is all about Bloom. He's worried about her learning the truth and thinking less of him. To match that, here's Adrien's only real dialogue in the penultimate episode of season five (full transcript):
Adrien:(Covers his ears.) I cannot transform... (Looks at his ring and tries taking it off.)
Plagg: What are you doing?!
Adrien: I'm not in my right mind. I'm too angry — at myself for falling short of Marinette's love, at my father for sending me here in London, at this stupid app and these rings that use my image... it makes me sick! This nightmare is giving me the horrible feeling that, if I transform, I'll get akumatized and destroy everything with my Cataclysm — Marinette, Ladybug... (Takes off the ring and hands it to Plagg.)
Switching back to Winx. After Bloom learns the truth about Sky, bad things happen because she's depressed. This results in her and the Winx going off on a journey to learn the truth of who Bloom is. After the girls share this big plot moment and Bloom gets her mojo back, the boys show up to be their ride home and to give Bloom her romance moment where Sky wins her back by declaring that he broke off the arranged married because he loves her.
Sky notably doesn't get an arc about choosing between his arranged marriage and his true love. We don't even know that the marriage is broken off until he tells Bloom because that was never really a conflict as far as the narrative was concerned. Of course he's going to pick Bloom! He's her designated side character love interest! He only exists to be with her. We don't need to treat this as a serious thing for him. The arranged marriage plot was never about him anyway. It was about giving Bloom a reason to have a darkest hour moment that moves the plot forward. Similarly, Sky calling off the marriage is nowhere near as important as him telling Bloom that he's called off the marriage to be with her in a grand romantic gesture.
This perfectly mirrors Miraculous' season five ending where Adrien doesn't appear until after Marinette is done fighting her big girl power fight against his father. As far as the writing is concerned, that fight isn't about him. His connection to the villain only really matters in terms of how it affects Marinette's actions during the final battle. Then, when the battle is over, Adrien shows up to give Marinette her big romance moment because, while the plot may be driven by Adrien's family, he is not a Winx club member. He's just a Specialist. Or, in the words of the head writer:
[image text: She's Barbie, he's Ken. You don't like it. I get it. It won't change. Anything else?] (The full, even more damning context of this tweet can be found here.)
What else can I say other than, "I rest my case."
Oh, and also that I didn't take this as an attack. I just thought it was a good opportunity to really dig into the nuances of this and what I was talking about in that original post as I never know how obvious this stuff is if you don't closely study story telling. As this case study hopefully shows, if a show is about a group of girl friends using the power of friendship, then their love interests may have important roles, but the boys are never going to be more important than the girls and most of the boy's screen time will be focused on romance and how their existence effects the girls because it's ultimately the girls' world. Without them, the show wouldn't exist. Without the boys? Well, then we just wouldn't have a romance plot.
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hehe re: your tags, what about yue/katara?
omg hi i'm sleepies so i probably won't get too much into it character-wise probably. i will simply say before anything else☝️i know ppl mostly hold the belief that katara is straight and that there some uncomfortable pitfalls people can find themselves in when (esp white) lgbt people paint indigenous characters lgbt in order to be able to "relate to them" and dismiss the character's worth and indigeneity through what is i suppose fandom pinkwashing + dismissing the sexuality of indigenous/native/first nations women, which i do try to be aware of and avoid entirely, bc i think by and large this happens when ppl apply these headcanons without any sort of actual nuance or thought and treat every hc as the same sort of formula to follow (like, character is x so i like them "now", etc). katara has as much worth and depth as a character let alone as an indigenous woman when she's straight as she would if she wasn't which is something people tend to struggle with and handle badly or ignorantly. (and yes, on the other hand, lgbt indigenous representation is just as important to uplift, but i mean when it's done with ignorant intention!).
with katara in particular i DO think she is probably straight and (FOX FACT) she was one of my first crushes when i was little as in like 8-9 and was Also a girl and did NOT know how to handle that and she was also just my favourite character in general so her being some flavour of lgbt+ is very fun for me in particular, but regardless of that i do think her being bi or something would be relatively sweet if handled normally. (also funnily bc of this i also hated sokka when i was little bc i thought he was mean to her LOL .. 😭)
secondly stealing your brother's girl before he even got to date her is HILARIOUS ❗️❗️but in all seriousness 🤓☝️ i think the situation of yue being, you know, sokka's first love who tragically died deserves to sort of like, keep that... gravitas? and as a significant part of sokka's narrative at the time is to do with handling her death in particular, specifically because, Obviously, he loved her, i think respecting that is first and foremost for me as much as i joked about how they barely dated so it's not as comparable as katara dating suki for example, lol (though i do think it's different just bc of like, how it's actually different, e.g. yue is dead, suki was his long term girlfriend).
BUT none of this means it's entirely impossible either bc obviously like i said i've thought about it and i do find it cute ^_^ and i think their dynamic would honestly be really fun, more so on YUE'S side for reasons i shall elaborate on in a second. obviously in this world in order for ANY of them to still have a relationship of any kind, yue would either somehow still be alive, have never have died in the first place, or it's a different world entirely and their initial meeting was different from the beginning. (this of course changes the inherent tragedy of her and sokka's relationship, and makes it less of a potentially weird or at least incredibly dramatic scenario, as well). each of these have their own merits and to be honest i am obsessed with canon divergent different first meetings that change the outcome of the later story i eat that up every time and am honestly constantly thinking about ways things could change from something small like say... katara sitting by yue instead of sokka. heh...
to me yue and katara are i wouldn't necessarily say foils of one another, but i do think putting them side by side draws a lot of significance to the surface. i will NOTTT ever be someone to be like the NWT/water tribes in general are HORRIFICALLY SEXIST because i think that is well, fundamentally stupid, and racist, but for the purposes of what i'm talking about i do think the different aspects of misogyny relevant to both of their characters and story at the time of their meeting is important and interesting to compare. i think yue being able to sort of catch glimpses of what it is to be a normal teenage girl with sokka and slip the responsibility on her shoulders for a short while clearly meant a lot with her and helped her forge her bond with him in the first place, someone who i think like with suki not only say, BALANCED their different personalities out, but was able to bring a more joyful authenticity out of her if not just some basic fun and shenanigans. i think it's important that they meet in book 1 even if it's on the tail end of it, relatively early in the gaang's journey and respective narrative arcs and therefore sokka's as well, bc it shows he ISN'T quite the same person he is in say, book 3, when the gang are missing the lightness and fun he brings to their interactions and he's still learning this himself and they're in a way drawing it out of each other.
anyway. i think it's fair to say yue is maybe not a buttoned-up person, but fairly serious at times or at least keeps her cards close to her chest. i think katara being someone who speaks her mind freely and proves herself to be tenacious and stubborn and LOUD and like, kind of annoying, above all generally awesome, and FULLY a Teenage Girl, would be a really fun mesh with her at this time for the same reasons sokka was, if not even more so tbh. honestly yue is again one of my favourite characters, behind sokka and zuko she is a solid and unchanging number 3 for me. i think yue is someone who values duty (a common theme in these characters, lol) and responsibility, and while katara is someone who DOES, technically, admire/share in this (obviously, as someone who has been responsible in part for her tribe and family for years, and particularly now while they've only got each other), she is also someone who sees someone doing what they Think they should be doing and she personally sees as unfair or wrong and blows her fucking lid. i would honestly just love in general to see a yue/katara friendship let alone a relationship of some kind, but like w/anything friends -> in love isn't a leap for me lol so it can be both truly... i think they'd bring out a lot of good in each other!!
i also do occasionally ponder how yue is a nonbender, yet a princess, as well as being not only spirit touched but by the spirit who... is the very source of waterbending. while i think this is actually very cool thematically i do often think about how strange it is logistically, and also think about how bending is in part to do with a willingness to do so, and the concept that yue COULD be a bender and just not realise. katara kidnapping a princess and teaching her to bend would be SO GOOD. to me. i also once had an au i scrounged up where yue was a bender and obviously just learned healing, but due to being again blessed by the spirit of WATERBENDING and having that connection w/the spirit world at all, her healing is quite literally insane and she essentially becomes an atlaverse necromancer. because i think that's awesome. other than that, yue learning to fight in general would be very cool and i think katara would fall over backwards trying to help even if she also knows basically nothing about nonbending fighting lol. they would fall on their asses Together <3.
i do also suppose the conflict and tension point of sokka clearly having feelings for yue could be something to be rattled around if u were into that. personally i do enjoy conflict but not soul crushing drama and ultimately in My world which is a beautiful world sokka has either already come to terms with it/moved on long ago bc it's been a while or i suppose just one of those au's where he never did feel that way in the first place. but tbf it's not like katara (or yue) would necessarily know that so it could still be a something or other.
ultimately yeah i just think yue being this dutiful princess figure who loves her people but does clearly yearn for more and is a person willing to make huge sacrifices for people and katara coming in and being someone who openly and authentically goes for what she wants even if she's being held back by certain factors that yue would be intimate with is well mwah. i enjoy it. a big draw for most atla pairings of any kind to me is them having the ability to just Be Young together and i think these two definitely deserve this, katara in particular! she is a very silly sweet character and i love whenever she tries to joke around, and i think her particular brand of being sarcastic or catty would make yue go >:0 and she would love it. ohhhhh they would eviscerate people together...
yue being a relatively sheltered figure who yearns in some way for a sense of freedom from it and therefore struggles with respecting and committing to the connection to her tribe and the responsibility she has for her people as their princess, and katara coming in as someone from their far-away, lost contact sister tribe, a relative important political figure in her own right to boot, representing not only this chance to grab at freedom and what you feel is right but the added layer of them both being women could have been a really cool angle for the narrative to contort to! also sokka AND katara pulling a prince and a princess of two different nations would be well funny as fuck.
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