#Norm Wolff

[ultradannyboyblog]

Here's What Happened After Coffee Today!

The Two Normans Here’s what happened to Norm Wolff (the northern one), after our weekly coffee today. But before I get to that, some of you may wonder why I include “the northern one” when I refer to him, and Norm Colon (the southern one) lives in Bellingham, WA. I made the distinction because I didn’t want to confuse Spanky, who just likes to annoy me with questions. I wonder how many times…

[salbertwolf]

Something something the fact that Rex's and Gregor's and Wolffe's helmets are so visually distinct from the rest as an indicator of being outside of the norm even before and how that leads to them being in Seelo together, outcast in their old age something something you know just me silly thoughts

[lightwise]

“Remain calm. Cooperate. And you might survive.”

A character study on Dr. Emerie Karr

I’ve had a post about Emerie wandering around the back of my mind all season, but haven’t really been able to pull anything together yet that I felt would do her character justice. In addition, I believe there are other people who can speak to some of her position and experiences in a cult-like environment where she has been raised with bounded choices and lack of agency better than I can, but I will still touch on those things here a bit.

Many people have been frustrated at Emerie’s character, even going so far as to say they hate her for not acting in ways we wish she would and for working in the Empire, conducting horrific experiments, and going along with Hemlock’s plans. While I understand the frustrations, there is nothing that Emerie has done that truly exceeds anything that Crosshair or Cody or Wolffe ever did under the Empire, especially when considering that her actions and choices are all very firmly rooted in a very chaotic, traumatizing, and lacking environment that she was raised in. She may not have had a chip (we don’t know), but regardless, she has not been given the amount of free will and expansive thinking that her clone brothers and Omega experienced during the war and after. Even still, her Jango Fett genes are showing through, with a natural affinity and compassion for children tugging on her latent moral compass the more and more she is around them. 

“Remain calm. Cooperate. And you might survive.” We first meet Emerie in season 2, when Crosshair is transferred to Tantiss after killing Lt. Nolan. She notably uses his name immediately, and seems to have a slightly more caring nature to her than any of the other medical assistants (like Dr. Scalder) that we have seen on Tantiss. She is focused and seems content and dedicated to her work, but wants Crosshair to survive and not be harmed more than is necessary. She seems to have traces of both Tech and Dr. Hemlock in her, with a dedication to science and the tasks assigned to her, and a mind that is obviously adept and capable of accomplishing various procedures. While she follows all of Dr. Hemlock’s orders completely, she shows traces of compassion to Crosshair along the way, and begs him not to try and escape. At this point, her own access card doesn’t even allow her to get outside, and we’ve never seen her on any of the landing platforms. She seems to have an intimate knowledge of how impossible it is to escape the facility (has she tried to herself?)

“She is a clone. And therefore Imperial property.”  Hemlock is talking about Omega here, but the camera pans to include Emerie standing beside him, looking at him. This cinematography choice will occur several times, where dialogue from Hemlock or Omega is overlaid with a shot of Emerie’s face to show that comments about freedom and clones and specimens and choice all have double meanings that include Emerie, even if she has the supposed station and respect of a doctor’s position. At this point it is unclear whether she fully understands how she is just as much a prisoner inside these walls as Crosshair and the other clones are. 

“A prisoner? You are no such thing. It is far safer in here than it is out there.” This is but one of many times that Emerie uses the word “safe” in regard to being on Mt. Tantiss, following the rules, and doing what is expected. She comes to retrieve Omega every morning, mostly chipper and focused on including her in her tasks for the day. She shows care for Omega but is fully absorbed in her duties and what to her is normal daily life. An empty room that locks from the outside is probably the norm for her. For Omega, it is decidedly not, and Omega’s curious but justice-oriented nature begins to tilt the axis of Emerie’s perceptions. When first meeting her, Emerie acknowledges her as her sister and wants her to trust her. It’s clear that she maybe knew of Omega at some point, even though Omega had never heard of her until now. We get a slight glimpse of why that would be, when Emerie tells Omega that she was on Kamino initially but was “sent elsewhere until Dr. Hemlock took me under his wing.” There is a LOT embedded in that sentence. Sent away by Nala Se? Why? What was her initial purpose in being created? Why was she discarded? Was Omega a “better” version of her? Where did she go, and how and why did Hemlock find her and bring her up as his medical assistant, seeing “potential” in her. It’s obvious Emerie’s sense of self-worth, while relatively strong, also hinges on following Hemlock’s orders. All of this screams abandonment and grooming even if not of a sexual nature, and Emerie certainly seems to show the submissive, trusting, and yet fearful disposition one might expect from someone whose life has been defined by those circumstances. 

 “You don’t know she won’t survive. She deserves a chance.”  A conversation about letting a domesticated Lurca hound out into the wild to fend for herself is clearly paralleled with Emerie’s fate. Emerie tries to act as a mediator between Hemlock and Omega, hoping that the girl won’t be hurt or punished. Hemlock scoffs at Omega’s decision to let Batcher go, and her impassioned statement above. He sneers “the flawed logic of an idealistic child. Emotion and sentiment have no place within these walls. You would do well to remember that.” Emotion and sentiment have seemingly been lacking in Emerie’s upbringing, yet they continue to have an influence on her impulses and actions more and more. A testament to this is the fact that she keeps Omega’s straw Lula doll after it is found during a midnight room inspection, and eventually gives it back to her even though it breaks protocol. She will later keep this doll hidden after Omega escapes, and give it to one of the Vault “specimens”, Eva, in an attempt to comfort her. In that initial confrontation with Omega, Hemlock had added a final warning: “Actions always have consequences. Sometimes not in the ways we imagine.” What will this mean in the future for both him and Emerie? Their choices until recently have seemed in line and coherent, but they are diverging more and more.  

“It’s best not to ask questions.”  Emerie once again demonstrates the dichotomy of her perspectives as she affirms the authority and deference that she believes she owes Dr. Hemlock, while also being attentive to Omega’s shift in mood after being told by Nala Se that she must escape. Emerie tells Omega to get some rest, thinking she isn’t feeling well. There is no reason for her to do this other than the fact that she cares about Omega, as against protocol as those feelings are.  

“You’re not thinking clearly. Escape is not possible. This is for your own good.”  After finding Crosshair and Omega ready to escape through the Lurca hound tunnels, she begs both of them to see what to her is reason and sense. She doesn’t want either of them to get in trouble or be hurt, and would have covered for them if they would simply surrender and return to their cells. She affirms again that escape is not possible, from her perspective, and that what is best is quiet acquiescence. We see this continued struggle between her own budding moral compass, her sense of duty, her fear, her belief that it is safer to stay and to be quiet and to stay small. After they escape the facility, she finds out that Omega’s blood is the binder they have been looking for all along, and partly out of scientific duty, and partly knowing that this knowledge is the only thing that will save Crosshair and Omega’s escaping ship from being shot down, she informs Dr. Hemlock. 

“Do you trust me? I’ve spent years working by your side. I could be more useful.”  Before Omega is recaptured, we get an entire episode from Emerie’s POV (which also establishes her as a very important character for the remainder of the season). Here we begin to see more of her conflicted moral compass, and also her budding sense of self esteem. “You wish to be the new chief scientist Dr. Karr?” “I believe I’ve earned it.” This fully encapsulates the dynamic that these two “doctors” have shared over the years. Emerie knows that Hemlock only values things that are useful, and probably only sees her own value in the light of what she can contribute, due to how she was raised and the circumstances she has been trapped in. Hemlock’s tone of voice implies that he has never considered her as being the new chief scientist, and yet he acquiesces quite quickly, almost as though he’s just too busy to think about it and if it means things are brought back up to production standard then he’s fine with her taking Nala Se’s place. His utter disregard for Emerie as an actual human and someone with merit is disgusting, but to Emerie it comes across as respectful benevolence (as long as she follows the rules). It is good to see her start to stand up for herself, although she has no idea what she is getting herself into.  

“You’re safe SP-32.”  Emerie’s experiences watching over the children in the vault begin to chip away HARD at the beliefs she has grown up with and the perspectives she has kept herself sheltered behind. She initially tries to connect with one of the children, Eva, but Hemlock quickly stops her and tries to force his perspective that these are simply “scientific assets. Specimens.” The children defy this characterization at every turn. Eva compliments Emerie’s glasses, shares her name. Jax reiterates that his number is not his name when he tries to escape, and Emerie spends the entire sequence of him trying to escape torn, worried for him, and disgruntled at how violently Scorch and the other commandos treat him. Her conflict continues to grow as Eva asks how Jax is after the escape attempt, and she has to face her duplicity in telling Eva everything would be fine, when it is not. 

“They’re children. Like I was. Was your plan to discard them too?” Finally, Emerie confronts Nala Se, and we get more of a glimpse into the circumstances of her childhood. Emerie obviously carries enormous bitterness and resentment for however Nala Se treated her and the choice to abandon her in favor of Omega, and she throws this back in Nala Se’s face asking why the rest of the children in the Vault haven’t been protected either. “The Empire will keep them in order to control them” — once again a layered statement that includes Emerie’s own position. “They don’t belong in here” — Omega’s hopeful and determined perspective has gotten through to her on some level, just as it did with Crosshair. However, despite her growing sense of guilt and remorse, Emerie still feels powerless and at the mercy of her environment. “I don’t have that kind of power.” But Nala Se challenges her that she does, and that her choices going forward will need to be hers and hers alone. 

“And where did this child come from?”  Emerie starts to take small steps towards more independent choices when she insists on accompanying Scorch to pick up the next force sensitive child. Whether her plan was to try and fudge the results so he could be returned to his home, or just find out more information about how these children are procured and how many are being kidnapped, she can’t change the outcome of Bayrn being brought in. But her dismay at how young he is and how much worse this situation keeps getting is evident. Just as telling is Hemlock’s misinterpretation of her hesitation of taking in another “specimen.” He thinks she’s afraid of them harming her in an escape attempt. He doesn’t see that her personal convictions have started to become louder in her mind and heart than his commands and manipulation. She continues to take steps toward autonomy by comforting Eva, using the girl’s name, and bringing her Omega’s straw toy, that she had kept against orders. The situation is wearing on her more and more. But there’s hope for her yet.

“Emerie, you don’t have to do this.” Once Omega is back on Tantiss, Emerie retreats back into her shell a bit as Hemlock orders her to test Omega’s blood again. She knows what will happen and where Omega will be taken when the sample comes through, and she looks utterly defeated and cornered, sighing, her shoulders slumped like Crosshair’s when he was still imprisoned. Yet even as far as she’s come, she can’t see a way around completing this task. “I’m sorry, but I do.” She tries to soften the blow with “for what it’s worth, I’m glad you’re safe.” But Omega is not having it. “Am I??” Emerie knows she’s not, sighing in fear and resignation again as Hemlock takes Omega away to the vault. She tries to console herself by giving the children better games to keep their minds engaged, and pointedly asserts her rank and decision to keep Omega in contact with the other children even when Dr. Scalder disagrees with her choice. Her confidence is still growing. Her sense of right and wrong is slowly becoming more and more defined. She is now starting to show a split front between her attempts to placate Omega vs. the questions and doubts that have been festering inside her. Will she finally be able to push through her fears and use her influence and position to help the children, the clones, Omega, and the Batch escape by the end? Or will she remain trapped in a life that she didn’t choose but that she has long since begun to question and pull away from?

Just like the rotating dial of test vials that she oversees every day, Emerie’s moral compass continues to inch closer and closer toward a resolution, until hopefully it will click fully into place. And when it does, Hemlock will (hopefully) regret every ounce of trust he’s ever placed in her. And Omega will hopefully be fully justified in the trust, pleas, and examples that she has been giving Emerie, her big sister, this whole time. Emerie’s sense of identity, justice, and conviction hang in the balance. She can be an agent of change for everyone’s fates, if she chooses to step into her own.  

✨ Tag List ✨

@drafthorsemath @freesia-writes @sunshinesdaydream @ladyzirkonia @jedizhi @the-little-moment @the-bad-batch-baroness @heyclickadee @burningfieldof-clover @dreamless-daydreamer

[the-strength-of-the-wolffe]

Wolffe the Grouch?

Now that I'm moving into season four with Wolffe's Story, I have to comment on this because it's been bugging me!

I've come to realize that the fandom embraces a particular characterization of Wolffe, and that's The Grouch. “Mercy Mission" is the reason, of course. I'll admit, it’s hilarious seeing him so fed up; no surprise why everyone loves it. However, that one portrayal has ended up dominating his whole fan-constructed personality. He's the Grumpy One—that's his thing. Get ready for the eyerolls and insults and withering stares!

It hurts my soul.

I think it's a bit unfair, because in all his other episodes, he's not a grouch at all! Sure, he frowns a lot, but so do most clones. Under that, he's a pretty chill guy. Look at "Rising Malevolence," a nightmare scenario—he’s a total pro. (He even quips with Plo! In the middle of the crisis!) That's consistent across his appearances: "Padawan Lost,” “Escape from Kadavo,” “To Catch a Jedi,” “The Lost Ones," etc. He might not be the most cheerful clone, but he's no curmudgeon. (I’m not taking Rebels into account; that’s a time jump and several more hells departed from TCW.)

To me, his grouchiness in “Mercy Mission” is simply a reaction to a particularly bad day, i.e. an exception to the norm. He seems fatigued before making planetfall—before even answering the transmission. He probably has Plo’s plight on his mind. As we’ve seen in other episodes, running errands isn’t a favorite job among clones; he's likely annoyed that he was chosen for it. The people he’s aiding are some of the quirkiest creatures in the galaxy, and, to make matters worse, they can only be communicated with through a prissy translator droid. I get why his no-nonsense sensibilities are offended by the whole situation.

I'm not really arguing in earnest here. He's a minor character with little screen time and can be interpreted any way people like. But he doesn't have to be a grouch all the time. Allowing him a little more dimensionality wouldn't hurt!

[knightprincess]

Forgive Me (Echo x Medic Reader) Part 14

Words: 2k Warning: None but a little bit of fluff ... I think

The moment the Marauder touched down on Anaxes, Anakin had been swept away by Obi-wan, no doubt to an immediate meeting with the Jedi Council. The Jedi Knight had little doubt he would be grilled for his actions and once again disobeying direct orders, as was the norm when he found a loophole. However, this time would be different as he had defied the order for any reason other than to help friends. Rex had told him of the theory Echo was still alive and brought his evidence, he couldn't turn his back on one of his closest and most loyal friends. (Y/N) too had been a reason. She hadn't been herself since Fives' death. She become far colder than before and determined to prove his innocence. Plus she all but rejected love from those around her, especially those who wanted to pursue a romantic relationship. He wanted to help Snap remember who she had been before Fives' died, before Echo had been lost at the Citadel before her heart had been shattered. 

Rex, on the other hand, had simply led the way to Snap's medbay, suspecting she'd be there caring for the troopers injured in the battles while they were away. The members of the bad batch followed behind quietly, the only sound escaping the group was the light tapping from Tech fiddling with his datapad and the subtle clunking from Echo's prosthetics. Nonetheless, the silence to settled over them was a comfortable one, it allowed them to find some sort of peace in the war raging on around them and truly allowed them to hear their own thoughts. Some of them thought about what their next mission would be, Would they be thrown in the jaws of doom again or be sent on something considered softer than normal? Rex on the other hand could only think of Snap and her reaction. He'd not told her when leaving for the mission to retrieve Echo if only to spare her the heartbreak, should it be a cruel trap by the seppies. The great captain knew for sure either Gregor or Wolffe would be around somewhere, keeping an eye on her as the senate had declared for all civvie medics in the field. 

Echo on the other hand thoughts had turned to all the things he'd missed. Gregor had apparently been found on the backwater planet known as the void, apparently with no recollection of how he ended up there. Fives, Tup, and Hardcase were gone as were many others he'd once called friends and brother. Soon enough his thoughts rallied to the impending reunion with (Y/N), he knew she'd changed, everyone in the war had. But still, he questioned if she would be happy to see him or even care for his return. He felt his nerves begin to rise, as his mind clouded with fear of rejection once more. Especially now when she was so different from his brothers and had done so much against those he once fought to protect. 

Before Echo really knew it, the group of troopers were passing over the threshold of Snap's medbay, Much to the surprise of Rex the area was completely empty besides (Y/N) and Gregor, the commando preoccupied with winding Snap up. Although he stopped the moment his honey eyes found the group, specifically the once missing arc trooper. After which his only action was to draw her attention to the group, even if that meant hiding her datapad for the time being. 

Snap had been about to reach for her datapad again when Gregor pointed to the quiet group. Upon turning to them she paled, so many emotions passing over her tired features. Slowly she stepped around her desk, trying to will her brain to catch up and to determine if she was seeing things or if her Echo was there. Rex and the members of the Bad Batch didn't say a word as they got comfy on the beds in the room waiting for their mandatory check-up before being released back into the field or receiving any treatment necessary.

"Hey, Snap" voiced Echo, mentally berating himself for saying something so stupid. They'd been separated for almost two years at that point, she deserved more than just a simple hey. He'd been about to say something else when he felt a hand collide with his cheek, sending his head whipping to the side with some force. His honey eyes were wide with shock as he turned to face her once more. (Y/N) seemed just as taken aback by her own actions, but there was also something else alight in her eyes now, something that hadn't been there before. Hope. 

"Sorry, had to make sure you were real" commented Snap, before repeating her actions, this time to Gregor chuckling and Crosshair making a snide comment. "That was for leaving without telling me the truth" she added before directing him over to one of the empty beds, a small grin coming to her lips although sadness was still present in her eyes. 

"Please spare us the drama and do him last" voiced Crosshair, wishing to be anywhere but there when the inevitable display of affection occurred. Even more so when it was obvious Echo was trying his hardest to stay still and do as Snap had commanded. (Y/N) simply nodded before starting with Wrecker, knowing the human wrecking ball hated medical checkups, probably more so than the needles that normally accompanied them. The moment she gave the lovable soldier his clean bill of health he practically jumped off the bed and ran for the exit, as if on the verge of achieving victory and escaping a prison. 

Crosshair had volunteered to be the next one, as per usual making comments, he didn't go far when Snap was finished with him, instead waiting for Tech and Hunter to be cleared or given any treatment needed. Once again Hunter was given something for his sensitivity and Tech flirted with (Y/N) even if he did so unknowingly, complimenting her work and skills as a healer. Rex too was released after a small dose of Bacta gel and a thank you from Snap. Gregor left with him, although he mentioned he'd be just outside the door should Snap be in need of him. 

Silence once again fell over the medbay, from a distance (Y/N) assessed what she'd need. Quickly determining she'd need to do both a physical and mental assessment on the man she still had the urge to call her Arc Trooper. At the same time, she came to the conclusion she'd have to look over all the prosthetics and implants the Techno Union had put in place. 

"Sorry about whacking you earlier. Almost two years ago I lost you, then without any warning you were here. I thought I was losing my marbles again" started Snap, admitting her reaction had been more from questioning her own sanity than punishing him for leaving her behind. Echo's eyes shone with surprise, Had he really affected her that much? What else had she been through for her to question the reality surrounding her? "Get comfy Mr. Arc Trooper, it's gonna be a long one. Gregor may as well go get some caf and enjoy a game of Dejarik with Wolffe" she continued, catching Gregor's salute from the door and leaving with Rex. 

"Thank you" blurted Echo, before he could truly grasp what was happening or the words to fall from his lips. Snap glanced at him in confusion, but there was no judgment as the Arc Trooper had convinced himself there would be, instead Snap looked at him as if he was the regular trooper he'd been before as if nothing at all had changed. When in truth everything had. "When I was ... when I was a ... alone. They probed my mind, you kept me company. Became my defence against them. Without you, I wouldn't have gotten through the isolation or the torment of being a weapon against my brothers, against the republic" whispered Echo, admitting she'd helped him even when she didn't know it. But refusing to admit the isolation had coursed far more damage than he would ever admit. Just as he wouldn't admit the other things he'd suffered through at the hands of the Techno Union or the thoughts of betrayal and abandonment his desperate mind had created. 

"Thank you for coming back" whispered Snap when she drew close enough. Her words served as a way to distract him from the injection, she caught him with. "Mental assessment is complete for now, your words gave a fair bit away" she calmly elaborated, making notes on her datapad, while resisting the urge to throw it aside and forget her manners. The man her heart set itself on was before her now, different yet still somehow the same, while her mind screamed at her to remain professional until her duties were done, her heart was yelling at her to give in and embrace him, to finally allow herself to feel the love she had forcibly shut away at some point. 

"You haven't changed a bit. Exactly the way I remember" warmly spoke Echo. After all the time to have passed and everything to have happened, the words others had spoken. He'd expected even prepared himself for Snap to be a different person. Yes, she was colder towards the Jedi and some other Civvi Medics, but she still had the same warmth and caring towards the troopers. She still accepted each as they were and called them by the names chosen. The only difference was, now she had an army of big brothers, and her bright smile had dimmed a little. 

"Save us the torment already and kiss" came a voice from the entrance. Snap could only chuckle as Jesse quickly dogged back behind the door, or rather was yanked back behind it by someone, there was little doubt in (Y/N)'s mind it was a member of the famed Wolf Pack or perhaps even Cody. 

"They haven't changed much either. Jesse's still one of the biggest flirts I know and Cody is still Obi-Wan's biggest fan" laughed Snap, letting a small yelp escape her lips when she felt arms wrap around her waist, pulling her in a warmish embrace. Echo was gentle not to hurt her with his scomp link or the implants scattered across his body. His left hand brushed through her silky hair, as he breathed in the familiar vanilla, jasmine, and peppermint scent. His only wish was to do as Jesse had suggested and kiss her, but somehow found his body wouldn't respond to his wishful command. Instead, the pair stayed in the locked embrace. 

As if on cue, Echo could hear Fives' voice ringing in his ears, a simple yet sarcastic "finally" on repeat, along with the normal grin Fives would have given and no doubt followed by a sarcastic comment on waiting far too long. Shortly after Echo's mind came up with the scenario of being chased around the base by Wolffe, acting as the big brother Snap never had and being overly protective of her. Rex following along behind with the simple request of keeping Echo in one piece, with Gregor near Snap and the many Jedi Generals being confused for the most part. 

"Sorry I waited so long" whispered Echo, before releasing her, at least allowing her to return to her duties before giving into the temptation of pulling her to him once more and finally kissing her. By the time the pair separated, Anakin had appeared from the Council Meeting, where his brows had once been creased, and anger had been displayed on his features. A sense of peace and a rare smile had taken over him the moment he entered Snap's medbay, finally, the pair had been reunited, finally, Echo was home again and finally (Y/N) was allowing herself to truly feel again, rather than locking all her emotions and feelings away in a durasteel box. Finally, there was a sense of love that had been missing for so long. 

Finally, Snap had more than friendship to fight for. 

Masterlist

[ladyzirkonia]

Meet my OC Doc. 🚬💊🦾

Doc (Jurij Vega) , is a doctor (cybernetic specialist) working for the Grand Army of the Republic. She has blonde hair, freckles and wears googles, often seen adjusting them when she's nervous.

Character traits:

Intelligence: Possesses exceptional intellect and expertise in her field.

Determination: Displays unwavering determination to achieve her goals and push boundaries.

Technical Savvy: Proficient in technology, using her skills to invent, engineer, and innovate.

Complex Morality: Deals with moral conflicts and gray areas, grappling with the ethical implications of her actions.

Visionary: Possesses a visionary mindset, challenging the status quo and striving to reshape the world.

Ethical Exploration: Explores the boundaries of what is ethically acceptable and pushes the limits of her field.

A Clash of Idealism and Reality

Hailing from a humble background in the Outer Rim, Doc's decision to become a doctor was motivated by the loss of her big brother. Specializing in cybernetic implants and intricate surgical procedures for Clone troopers, she has performed surgeries on notable figures like Commander Wolffe, including the installation of his cybernetic eye. She also ensures the proper functioning of the implanted parts.

Having earned her doctorate in genetic mutations, particularly in enhanced senses and desirable mutations, Doc began her journey in the GAR with idealistic aspirations. However, she soon discovered the limitations of her role, realizing that she was just a cog in the machine and unable to save or even intervene in most lives.

Doc harbors a strong aversion to the regulations imposed by the GAR, especially the protocols that restrict her from intervening beyond a certain extent of damage inflicted on the clones. While she often hesitates to speak out, there have been a few exceptional cases where she defied GAR protocol to save lives.

The Fine Line: Doc's Unhealthy Obsession and Coping Mechanisms

Struggling with obsessive tendencies regarding her work, Doc's dedication can sometimes take on unhealthy dimensions. She turns to smoking and other coping mechanisms during high-stress situations, leveraging her access to various substances and medications.

A constant battle wages within Doc, questioning the ethical boundaries of her profession and the medical possibilities that exist. Often, her ego triumphs, pushing her to explore uncharted territories in the pursuit of pushing the limits and challenging established norms.

Obsession and guilt: Doc and Commander Ghoul

Doc, driven by a helper syndrome, becomes obsessed with healing Jenot and making him whole again. This obsession borders on unhealthy and toxic, as she invests all her energy into his well-being. Meanwhile, Jenot, burdened by survivor guilt, directs his frustration and anger towards Doc, blaming her for saving his life. Their dynamic is marked by a constant power struggle, with Doc shouldering the weight of his emotions.

Here and here more about Commander Ghoul (OC by @cloned-eyes) Here the thing everything started

Fanfiction Shattered Minds - Part 1 - Part 2

tagging @staycalmandhugaclone for the wonderful OC 400 Follower event you can join here.

Thanks for that, it finally made me put together some info from my head here. And hopefully gets me motivated to post the (almost three) existing parts. Doc is my baby, I love her, so be nice.

[thisismeracing]

https://www.tumblr.com/thisismeracing/737093633087520768/httpswwwtumblrcomthisismeracing7364627668739?source=share

“I wonder how baby bono's interactions with toto n jack r like” - @omgsuperstarg

bono!reader and the wolffs

toto: toto to bon is not really an uncle and not really a grandfather. i think he lives somewhere in the inbetween. but regardless of the label he fits into in relation to who he is to bon, he’s someone who bon looks up to immensely. alongside susie, he taught her how to use her voice and be the leader she is today, through his own duties of leading the team. he’s the one who she goes to when she needs to have someone weigh in on something in her life in a semi-serious manner over a cup of coffee or tea. and i think that a lot of the interactions in the paddock are of them in their serious let’s get shit done mode. but once everything is done for the day they shift to that sort of mood you get in when it’s nearing the end of a family function, a significant number of people have left, and you’re kind of done for the day but you are still with people and you kinda don’t care about how you are presenting yourself to said people and it’s just that raw personality and hilarity that comes through.

jack: with jack there were/are some mixed feelings because of that fear that the people she holds dear are going to leave her in favor of him. but that doesnt mean she doesn’t love him like how you would with a younger sibling. with laura it’s more of a “i love and care about you” in the fashion you would have of a cousin you dont get to see often but are somewhat close with. and with jack it more “i love you as if you were my biological little brother.” these two get up to so many shenanigans together. running around the paddock playing tag, messing with water guns at hot races, scaring toto, running around passing out snacks to the team and some of their favorite staff at “rival” teams. growing up in the paddock everyone made sure she was having a good and fun time, so when it comes to jack she follows in the footsteps of who helped raise her. making sure the next generation knows the love and support that this little world of theirs has to offer unconditionally.

susie: there’s this mutual, unsaid understanding between the two of them that is “i think of you as a mother” and “i think of you as a daughter” and it remains unsaid until bon goes on the journey of being comfortable with holding the people she’s been scared of losing in fear of them leaving in a similar fashion of her bio mother. and for susie in particular it manifests in a very long love letter from bon appreciating how much she’s received from susie and how she’s filled a maternal role for her all these years on mother’s day accompanied with a handful of things susie made off hand comments about wanting but hasn't gotten around to buying for herself. susie helped teach her how to be in the world not only as a human, but also as a woman working in the world of motorsport. that it’s hard work and sometimes you want to quit, but you keep on going so that this sport can grow to be inclusive for females, whether it be the drivers or the engineers or the mechanics, etc., being present to be the norm and not the outlier. susie is her mentor in some ways, family in others, but can also just be a friend.

the wolffs are just three of the many rocks bon has in her rock garden of life, and she couldn’t be more grateful for the three of them

(hope yall liked this cause holly shit was this hard to write)

☕️

post ref

omg I loved love loved it!!! no additions needed <3 I see it all so perfectly and I love their relationship

[lewisinho]

love this whole “conflict of interests” as if red bull doesn’t own two teams… talk about conflict of interests, THATS what should be stopped. When I think it was max, got called for impeding on yuki and nobody from alpha tauri showed up to the stewards meeting to complain, THATS a conflict of interests. Not the wolffs

oh yes, i love how they didn't even send some dude for the sake of pretence lmao... but side-stepping from the rb/alpha tauri whatever-the-fuck-is-going-on-there mess, and looked at the business of f1 as a whole, if you eliminated every person from their role due to even a perceived 'conflict of interest', we wouldn't have many people left, as this sport is quite literally managed by a spider-web of people all inter-linked and in which 'conflicts of interests' are practically the norm: both f1 management and the fia are made up of ex-*insert team* employees and vice-versa...it's a merry-go-round of the same people moving roles; lobbying, exchange of information, underhand tactics are all part of this game, and it is naive to think that there is some holier-than-thou person in this sport that refuses to engage in the same politics

[djpurplehill]

Women in the Rap Game pt 4

Women have worked so strongly since the emergence of rap and hip-hop culture to earn a spot at the top with male artists. Christina Pazzanese from The Harvard Gazette states, “The industry has been male-dominated, and it’s been very difficult for women to get their voices heard. The music industry is a microcosm of what’s going on in the rest of the world. So, it’s been very hard for women to be treated fairly, to be treated with respect, to receive the same type of pay that male artists get. That’s the way it’s been in the past, and that’s slowly been changing.” The industry lacks women in charge and behind the scenes of music. The world needs women producers, mixers, sound engineers, and songwriters for this power shift. Men dominate all sides of this industry, and it is unfair for this power to solely be in their hands. The need for change in this industry has been a known problem, as it roots back way farther than before rap. Christina Pazzanese from The Harvard Gazette again states, “The only thing that’s going to change that is men recognizing a woman’s worth and her value and giving her the opportunity. Maybe some of those record companies, those publishing companies, those production houses should be giving women the opportunity to drive the car. Women should be also given the opportunity to own the car — driving it is just not enough.” While this article talks about women in pop, the agenda is still the same. Collaborations in the music industry have seen the most influence with the mix of male and female artists. This may be the best way to have female artists reach the platform they should be at. Cassie McMillan from Applied Network Science states, “Women may also only see collaborations as beneficial for their careers if they are able to enter these relationships with a certain degree of power. Gender norms often leave women disadvantaged in decision making processes, particularly when these interactions are embedded in male-dominated domains, such as sexual relations (Wolff et al. 2000) and financial budgeting (Fonesca et al. 2012). Thus, women R&B/hip hop artists may prefer to avoid collaborations if they lack the necessary power to bargain out of playing stereotypical roles and producing misogynist content. Thus, collaboration opportunities may only be attractive to women with access to large amounts of tangible and intangible resources that can bolster their power and authority.” This seems like a somewhat solution to the gender representation problem that is visible in the R&B, rap, and hip-hop industries. The presence and impact of female rap artists have emerged at a steady rate and will only continue to grow. Women have carved out their own space in this male-dominated genre and will keep challenging stereotypes. The rap industry is ever evolving as trends appear and fade, but female artists will continue to push boundaries and bring their moves to the rap game. 

[lake-archive]

Track 7

Fandom: Hypnosis Mic

Series: Three CATZ In The Bag

Characters: Eli (by @watersofcamelot), Ole (OC), Ann Wolff (OC), Kadenokoji Ichijiku

AO3 Link

Track 6 - Track List - Track 8

No use, he had to return eventually. It was a reaction out of reflex, because Eli had no idea how else to react to any of this. It had overwhelmed him, to the point he had not thought clearly. And with his head now cleared up he was ready to head home, Ann and Ole probably still waiting. Or so he had hoped… Honestly, if he had walked past one of them while he was outside it would be very inconvenient, a bit of a bother even. He didn’t take his time yet did not run either as a result, just hoping for the best. However… This would not happen. Of course it wouldn’t.

“Look look look, what do we have here? A little girl on the loose.

Nowhere to go, nowhere to hide. Just an insect to crush.

Hey why don’t you run home? Oh right, heard you have none.

Mommy left, you’re stuck. 

The brat’s on the loose, ready to be picked up.

How about you’ll be a good girl and get into your cell? Sure you’ll love it.

And your brute? You better say goodbye, because it won’t see another day~”

If it had just stayed at that he would have just walked past the scene and ignored it. It was not rare that two idiots battled it out, away from the prying eye. Why? Because they could. Well, it wasn't as if he would blame them, it could get boring sometimes. And people will be people. Not like he could talk to begin with, he was causing problems every other week. That corrupt ass of a cop must have enough of him at this point. But whatever.

However, when hearing another voice suddenly screaming out of their lungs he quickly turned his attention there.

“Right on the clock and has enough time to mock.

Too scared for someone your size? Or do you enjoy tramblin’ on mice?

Be bitchin’ ‘round, that’s all you can say.

‘If it were me you’d be dead’ – Yeah ok.

Ya wanna get fucked up? Then come right at.

I’ll hit ya gut and get ya locked right up! 

Your luck’s run out so give up or me and Ole are gonna fuck you up!”

When he looked over there he saw… Ann? With a Hypnosis Microphone in their hand!? And beneath her skirt was Ole, sheltering his ears and… The mic still with him yet he had dropped it for the time being, shaking while trying to hold his own ground. Wait… It affected him too? Huh, there one has it… 

But back to the matter at hand. It was somewhat of a terrifying sight, to say the least. Sure, he knew Ann was working for the Chouhku and all of that crap but battling one of her colla— Wait, unless… That doesn’t just happen, does it?

Eli knew enough to conclude that this was not the norm in any way. Something must have happened. The women usually do not attack one another, not that he knew. Unless that was the case and he had never paid any type of attention. Well, even if Ann said she was not one, most would probably still see her as one. So this was—

However, his thoughts would be interrupted when seeing her suddenly being slammed by a few waves, as if too much air pressure had been applied. She got smashed into the next best wall with her back with full force, letting out a loud, painful groan. Ole looked panicked, his head turning all over. His ears trembled and he seemed to be unable to move away. One gaze at the woman and he may as well be a cat statue, as if the fear was overcoming him. It was a state not even Eli had seen the cat in. And yet, the old man of cat’s tail was standing up alongside his fur, as if ready to lunge. He just had to collect himself, it seemed before going on the offense. Well, not like he will have to worry about that because… Eli couldn’t look at this. Not when it was them, both at once.

So when the officer was about to approach the cat Eli jumped in between them, yelling: “What’s going on over here!? The hell!?” 

That got the attention of the officer, her eyeing Eli up and down yet soon looking a little with disgust at him, even slightly annoyed. “Tch, why does a swine have to appear now?”

“That doesn’t answer my question.” He responded, a little annoyed while crossing his arms. 

“Tch, none of your business anyway. Piss off, I’m punishing a traitor and criminal here before caging her in.”

“Criminal? Traitor?” That had Eli confused. Never had he ever expected to hear this about Ann. After all, they were not known to be a troublemaker but he was! They were about to steal his role here! 

With jokes aside, this was so odd to hear for his own ears. Ann never struck him as that type of person. But… If his assumption right then— 

“I said piss off, didn’t I? You got no business here.” The officer scoffed, the annoyance written all over her face. “Or do I gotta shove you outta the way too?”

Eli grit his teeth at this… This was just… No, he shouldn’t just stand here doing nothing. Especially when it was not just Ann involved but also Ole… A literally cat was in the crossfire. And sure, he was far from ordinary, but a cat was a cat. Besides, they were the two attacked as far as he was concerned. 

It may have been a sudden reflex at that moment yet he decided to not stand idle. So he picked up the microphone next to Ole quickly and then—

“Ey little shit. You? Yeah, you!

Got something to say? 

Ya preachin’ the law and all of that crap. Well, I’ve had it so listen up!

Ya lot’s the same, preaching this and that! But you’re no better than the other crap!

Arson, Assault, Affray – No for us but yes for you?

Y’know, I’d give a flying fuck! 

Ya break the law? Well, so will I! 

Now taste that assault!”

As the words came out of his very own mouth an illusion of shooting weapons surrounded the young man, setting their aim quickly before shooting the officer several times with each upcoming word. She staggered a few times yet would fall on her knees eventually, panting shortly after. It was all it took it seemed, enough for Eli to let out a deep sigh, then looking down at the woman. 

“Ya had enough or you need another shooting?” He asked, ready to continue anytime. Honestly, he was feeling extra generous for the sight he got to witness. He wanted to give back to this one tenfold but a voice would suddenly interrupt all of it.

“Alright! That’s enough! All of you, silence!” Another woman had entered the scene, a loud voice asserting its dominance! Or something like that. Yet it would send shivers down the regular person’s spine. It sure had everyone’s attention and they all were turning their heads. The steps were audible, mainly due to the heels which made her appear taller than she actually was. And yet, that only made her more intimidating. Then again, as Deputy prime Minister it might have been an obvious and natural choice. But what was Kadenokoji even doing here? Well… Maybe she was just in the area or something like that. Not like Eli was unfamiliar with her. When shit hit the fan with him, she had to be the one who had to clean it up. She was the last resort but the only one who could put a stop to him. Or ‘stop’. Usually it would be amusing but now? Awful timing. He was just getting started.

Soon enough Kadenokoji stood close to the scene, her eyes scanning the area, looking as cold and strict as always. When spotting Eli she clicked her tongue, her mood worsening, before turning back to the hunched down officer. “What do you think you’re doing!?”

The unnamed woman lifted her head up, looking up in shock, almost terrified. “K… Kadenokoji–Sama! I… Just…”

“Was this arrest ordered?” 

“Ah— W… Well…”

“Yes or no!?”

The officer gulped for a moment before meekly shaking her head, too afraid to speak up.

“Was someone acting out of line!?”

Another meek headshake.

“Then what gives you the right to attack a civilian!?” 

“B… But the traitor—”

“That is not for you to decide! We decided to let her go. So unless she is causing problems, you have no right to attack her or any other civilian!”

“Hah!? If I ma–”

“I didn’t ask for your opinion, did I!?”

“Ah– N… No Ma'am!" The officer stood up, having gone pale by then, the terror all too visible. talk about setting someone straight.

Kadenokoji sighed. “Leave! We’ll talk about this later.”

“Y… Yeah…” And with that the officer left, though not before shooting a cold glare at Eli and even Ann probably, then hurrying away. With that, the Deputy Prime Minister’s attention was all theirs, even having the honor to speak to her face to face.

Well, not Eli, he may as well have been air. Instead she had been approaching Ann who was slowly getting up. All while Ole was hiding behind Eli’s legs, peeking out to see this unfold probably.

“Get up.” Kadenokoji said, almost commanding yet there was no need to tell the brunette twice. 

“Wh… Why did you—” Ann was about to ask, the surprise written all over their own face. 

“Traitor or not, Otome–Sama decided to let you off the hook.” She interrupted however. “You should know better though than to be so careless.”

“Ah— R… Right. Sorry.”

“Take this as a warning. They are all out for blood. I saved your ass for the first and last time.”

“Y… Yeah. Thank you for that.”

“Whatever. I just happened to be in the area.” Kadenokoji gave Ann a glance, only leaving the other one confused for a moment. “You better be ready to fight from now on. They won’t get rest until you are either locked up or dead.”

With that the tall woman turned away, once more passing by Eli and being gone before anyone of the three knew it. Ann was about to ask something yet they did not get the chance yet even he knew this was odd. The air around the two was a little… Unusual. He could somewhat tell. And yet, he did not have the time to think about it too much as he quickly turned to Ann, throwing a somewhat sharp glare at her while crossing his own arms.

“So… What’s this about? Care to explain Sis?” He asked, visibly putting her on the spot.

“Hah!? W… Well…”

“C’mon, what are you hiding? There’s gotta be a reason for this nonsense.”

They gazed away for a moment, debating perhaps if it was ok to speak up. But the decision was made rather quickly, to say the least, given the gaze back. “Hah… Fine. I guess I can’t hide this from you after all.”

Track 6 - Track List - Track 8

[the-rewatch-rewind]

Long fun episode featuring my brother!

Transcript below the break

Hello and welcome back to The Rewatch Rewind! My name is Jane, and this is the podcast where I count down my top 40 most frequently rewatched movies in a 20-year period. Today I will be discussing number 20 on my list: Miramax, Jane Starz Productions, and Blessington Films Productions’ 2004 fantasy comedy Ella Enchanted, directed by Tommy O’Haver, written by Laurie Craig, Karen McCullah, Kirsten Smith, Jennifer Heath, and Michele J. Wolff, based on the book by Gail Carson Levine, and starring Anne Hathaway and Hugh Dancy.

Cursed with the “gift” of obedience in infancy, Ella (Anne Hathaway) becomes increasingly desperate to break free when her father remarries, and her step-mother and step-sisters (played by Joanna Lumley, Lucy Punch, and Jennifer Higham) take advantage of her forced compliance. Finally she runs away to find and confront the fairy who cursed her, and makes several friends along the way, including an elf named Slannen (Aiden McArdle), and, of course, a prince named Charmont (Hugh Dancy).

I didn’t see this movie in theaters, but I did see it the year it came out. I watched it once in 2004, seven times in 2005, once in 2006, once in 2008, once in 2009, once in 2012, once in 2013, twice in 2014, once in 2015, once in 2016, twice in 2019, and once in 2021. The vast majority of those viewings were with my brother Quinn, so I asked him to join me and help explain why we love this movie so much. We had a very long, very fun conversation that I hope you will enjoy.

Hi, Quinn!

Quinn

Hello!

Jane

Welcome to the Rewatch Rewind. 

Quinn 

How exciting to be here! I feel famous. 

Jane 

Yes, you've definitely been mentioned in many previous episodes. 

Quinn 

It's very fun for me as your sibling, having grown up with you and been in the background of a lot of these watches, I'm guessing, to hear some of your takes as as a grown person on on these movies. And just kind of revisiting, you know, it takes me back to a time and place as well hearing you talk about them. So this podcast is personally very fun for me. 

Jane 

Have there been any movies that you hadn’t seen? 

Quinn 

You know none that immediately come to mind. There's definitely movies I didn't watch nearly as much as you did. Like, I think there's a couple movies that I've heard your, your… you explaining on the podcast, your affinity for them is kind of the first time I've heard, like, your insights, and like all the, the nuances that you notice about each of the movies. But no, I'm pretty sure I've been familiar with all of the movies that you've talked about. Like Adam's Rib, like I maybe never watched it all the way from start to finish, but I've certainly seen the “like a sound part” and the the highlight parts of the movie that you noted in the podcast. 

Jane 

Yeah, cause I think Rosemary's told me there's a couple that she was not sure that she'd seen. 

Quinn 

OK, it was news to me that everyone hated Bringing up Baby. I think I probably did at some point know that, and then just like forgot overtime but…

Jane 

Yeah, I feel like the rest of the family would never watch it with us.

Quinn 

Well, no and I didn't… I I completely didn't realize that that I… it always stuck out to me as one of my favorite movies of that time and era, and I don't think that I was ever old enough when I watched it to really question the like logistics of it, or like the premise. So, but I always loved Bringing up Baby. I thought it was funny. And I think that it's funny that people were so irritated with Katharine Hepburn because I think she's hilarious in the whole thing. 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah, so I did remember, like I almost was like, oh, yeah, everyone I know hates this movie, I was like, oh no, Quinn likes this movie! 

Quinn 

Well, I'm glad to get the shout out. I really didn't realize it was a controversial stance that I had. 

Jane 

Yes, well, I know a lot of like old movie fans that I've met online were telling me, like, “Oh yeah, I love Bringing up Baby!” So it's not just us, but... 

Quinn 

Yeah, definitely. You talked about its reputation as being kind of like a standout screwball comedy. I think that definitely makes sense. I think that it doesn't get screwier than Bringing Up Baby.

Jane 

Yeah, it is, it is THE screwball comedy. Yeah, so as far as the movie we're talking about today though, I think…

Quinn 

Made many decades later. 

Jane 

Yes! I think that that's one that we definitely fell in love with together, that like a lot of the movies I've talked about so far are like specific to me watching and then you would kind of watch them with me. But I think with Ella Enchanted, we watched it together and grew to love it together, so that's why I wanted to have you on for this episode. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah, I definitely think that like looking at your list and like thinking about like oh what are some of the reasons why they ended up here? Like Ella Enchanted, I feel responsible for in ways that I might not feel responsible for other movies on this list. 

Jane 

Yes. Well, I think what's important for our listeners to understand is that when you were younger, like you're quite a bit younger than me. And when you were little, you really liked to, like, pick a movie and watch it a bunch, like, really close together. Is that fair? 

Quinn 

Oh yes, I had phase movies for sure. Like it was, I can think of particular movies that I would watch all the time and I could never tell you the reason why I stopped watching any of these movies. But there would be a period of time that I would just get really hot with a certain movie and that would be all I wanted to watch and then… I guess I would just get over it. 

Jane 

And I think that Ella Enchanted is the only one of those that has made it onto my list. 

Quinn 

Yes, I would say that's fair. And I, Ella Enchanted was for sure one of those movies, and I would actually say one of the things I for sure wanted to talk about today was the soundtrack for Ella Enchanted, I would say is has been a pillar of my music appreciation over the years and like that soundtrack is actually very good…

Jane 

It's very good. 

Quinn

…and I think introduced me to a lot of like older songs like classic songs that I otherwise wouldn't have known that I think was important in my developing a music taste as well. 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah. There's definitely a lot of covers of really famous songs. It's kind of weird that they chose to go that direction with, like, this fairy tale story like that they did more like rock songs. But it works really well. It was just kind of an odd choice when you, like, read the book, you don't necessarily think like, oh, this would be perfect to have like a Queen song. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah. And I was actually thinking about, you had mentioned fans of the book Ella Enchanted that the movie is adapted from tend to be pretty disappointed with this adaptation. And I agree that it's a pretty poor representation of the book, and I guess I've sort of reimagined the movie as more just like another like retelling of Cinderella and, and I guess, like kind of with Ella Enchanted flavor to it. Like there's a lot of the plot points that like kind of the core characterizations of some of the characters are borrowed from Ella Enchanted. But yeah, I mean, I think there's so many adaptations of fairy tales out there, and like I think that it's a very fun and ultimately like kind of visionary choice that they went with like sort of this like 70's rock theme for the soundtrack that sort of like didn't really have any other connection to the story, but just those were the songs that they went with. And I do know that like specifically with Somebody to Love, which I think is kind of the key musical moment in the movie that was really sort of driven from like, I guess Tommy O'Haver was working with Anne Hathaway on some kind of like more traditional, like folksy fairy tale song. And it didn't suit her voice as well as Somebody to Love. So I feel like it was also very driven by like who were the people making the movie and what their tastes were, which is, I also think probably why it works because it was driven from an organic place. 

Jane 

Yeah definitely. And I think that casting Anne Hathaway and then like using her, because like, at that point, she was mostly known for Princess Diaries, which I guess she still is known for Princess Diaries, but, like, kind of taking that sort of flavor of princess of, like, I guess it's not really like a modern story, Ella Enchanted, because it's sort of set in this…made-up fairy tale-ish place, but like definitely has, like modern sensibilities that I think that like putting… I mean, Anne Hathaway has also done period work that's been good. I mean, she won an Oscar, but like, I think that taking her like personality and more modern sensibilities and putting it into this fairy tale thing worked really well. And I think that if they had tried too hard, like again, like, recognizing that that song didn't fit her voice and tried too hard to push her in a different direction. I don't think the movie would have worked.

Quinn 

Oh yes, Anne Hathaway is very much allowed to be Anne Hathaway in this movie and it's fantastic. I think one of my biggest takeaways from this movie in watching it relatively recently in preparation for this conversation was just how essential I feel it is in the Anne Hathaway story. Because, I mean, you see her, I think debuting in a lot of people's eyes, I think she was in a movie or two before Princess Diaries. Or was that her debut? 

Jane 

I think it might have been her debut. 

Quinn 

And I feel like you have definitely a star is born moment with Princess Diaries and she really I think emerged as someone to watch and as a a star that could like hold their own with Julie Andrews and and sort of have this kind of fun, relatable charm. Like I do see sort of like the Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrences that come after really sort of taking something from the Anne Hathaway School of being a young it girl actress. And I feel like it was Ella Enchanted that really I think the singing particularly introduced this new layer to her talent, you know, circle and now all of a sudden, Anne Hathaway can be in musicals and she's very good at singing. And I just think that it was a very important stepping stone to her becoming a superstar. And I mean, she won the Oscar for a musical. So I think you know I can see, you know, maybe she would have ended up in Les Mis regardless of Ella Enchanted, but I do think this movie really put her on the map. And it's funny because I don't think it's a like particularly well regarded movie in any sort of circles, but I have to think that it had some really important impacts on Anne Hathaway's career following. 

Jane 

Oh yeah, definitely. So had you read the book before seeing the movie, do you remember? 

Quinn 

I actually I don't remember, but if I had to guess, I would say I saw the movie first, and I think you knew the book and so were able to like give some context when I would see it early. And then I did eventually read the book and like it. It has been a long time since I've read the book though, so I cannot really recall what is different about the movie in the books now. 

Jane 

Yeah, I haven't read the book in a long time. I had read the book definitely before I saw the movie, and it was kind of like, I feel like the book was different than this. But like the, I mean the basic premise is the same, but it's different to the point that I, like you said, I kind of consider them two different things, and I can definitely see why fans of the book would think that the movie was a bad adaptation, but at the same time it's like, it's fun. They did their own thing with it and…

Quinn 

Well, and Ella Enchanted is an adaptation too, which I think it for me is what makes it work. 

Jane 

Right. 

Quinn 

And like I have been thinking in a lot of like media that I've seen recently with elements of the Cinderella story in it of like, what are some of the things I like about each retelling? And like I I texted you out of the blue when I was watching Into the Wood randomly and I was like, I think the Cinderella in Into the Woods is my favorite all time Cinderella. So like I did also, when I watched it recently was kind of thinking about like what are my favorite interpretations of the Cinderella story like in Ella Enchanted and what are some of the things that I think work better in other retellings? It's a story that is just very familiar at this point. 

Jane 

Yeah, it's been told and retold time and time again, and I I know you haven't listened to the Enchanted episode yet, but we talked about Cinderella quite a bit in that episode, too, because it's sort of like the fairy tale. And I think it's so interesting in Ella Enchanted that they added this layer of her being cursed. And it's not just that she has a really mean stepmother and step sisters. But it's like, literally they could order her not to leave and she would not be able to leave. 

Quinn 

Yeah, the curse is awful. And I do think Cinderella in all tellings of the story is someone who is abused,

Jane 

Right. 

Quinn 

and I think that that is a very important  facet of the story, and I think you and I've talked a lot about how there's a lot of like dismissal of Cinderella as a character in many iterations of just like being this damsel, like this bad representation of, you know, femininity and you know, just waiting around for a man. But I think that the curse really illuminates just some of the cruelty that I think Cinderella in all versions of the story experiences. But it's they almost don't really emphasize the chores, and like the the working and the cinder part of Cinderella, and they even dropped that from her name. It's it's less about the labor that she's expected to do and more just that this curse really defines all aspects of her life and turns even people that are trying to help her against her. And yeah, it's a terrible, terrible curse. And I think that it's a very lighthearted movie, but it's very dark what she has to go through. 

Jane 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it also… they do a good job of showing her sort of fighting the curse. And again, like you said, there's this perception that Cinderella is sort of a weaker, more passive character, but she really has always been, you know, very strong in being able to break away from her horrible situation. And I think they show Ella really doing everything she can to fight the curse and be like, OK, I'm gonna do what you told me, but I'm gonna do like, my own version of it. Like I'm gonna try and find loopholes in these orders so that I don't have to actually be under your thumb. And yeah, I I just, I think that's very well done. 

Quinn 

From a narrative perspective, it's a really powerful way to empower the character of of Ella and make her, I think, have people see more of themselves in her too, by giving her something to really fight against and be subversive against. And I think that that, I mean, it drives the plot of the movie. It's it's a good a good narrative tool. 

Jane 

Yeah and then there's the whole thing about that she's trying to fight for the rights of like elves and giants and other types of mystical beings who have been subjugated by the government. And I think that there's a little bit of an element of like sort of a savior complex in some of what she does, but I think that ultimately she feels a kinship with these people that are being forced to do things against their will because she's literally being forced to do things against her will all the time when people tell her to do stuff, she has to do it. And I think that that gives her a lot of empathy for, like giants being forced to do farm labor, and elves being forced to sing and dance. And I think they do a good job of showing that in the story. That like she feels like she kind of understands some of what they're going through and that's part of why she feels so strongly about trying to help them. 

Quinn 

Yeah, yeah, I think that it's also, I would love to see sort of the same premise of this story exist now and kind of retold now that we know a little bit more about how to be maybe a better ally or to sort of be a little bit more inclusive and less performative. Because I do think you know, in watching it recently, there were some things Ella said and did that I was like, ooh I don't know about that as you know, good activism. Like thinking specifically about how, when her and Prince Char returned to Lamia, which is where the palace is, you know where the Prince is there. He clearly has some kind of status and they're with an elf companion, their elf friend Slannen, and like they just he gets thrown out of the the palace and they stand there and don't seem to like, do anything to try to stop it. It's like, OK, well, we need to, like, act upon our convictions. So yeah, there's little things like that. And also like when Slannen the elf is trying to talk to Prince Charmont about working with his uncle to maybe allow elves to have other careers than being performers or entertainers cause he wants to be a lawyer and he's saying, “Well, can you petition your uncle the literal king for me to be a lawyer?” And he's just like, “I can't do that! That would be weird. It simply isn't done!” And so those are the types of things where the movie does let me down a little bit because I want to see, you know, some real advocacy and allyship. But I do think that you make such a good point about Ella feeling a kindred spirit to these marginalized peoples and really having that empathy and speaking up and saying something. I think that that is very clear throughout the movie and that is what allows her to be successful ultimately, is these relationships that she's built that she has built through empathy and through, you know, walking in people's shoes and hearing their stories and listening to them. So I think that there is a really beautiful message of of caring for the marginalized and advocating throughout the movie. 

Jane 

Yeah and I do think that there's they show that Prince Char, at least they show him as very like privileged and ignorant initially and that he, like again, he definitely could do more, but I'm thinking about like the scene when he listens to the giant leader and like, he's actually like, oh, wow, I didn't realize how bad things were. I'm going to try and make things better, and again, I don't know what he actually does, but he does become king, presumably at the end after his uncle dies. So hopefully he does…. 

Quinn 

He does sing Elton John. That we do know. 

Jane 

Yes, so I mean obviously there's only one step between sing Elton John and free the marginalized people, so… 

Quinn 

He's on the right path. 

Jane 

Yeah, yes. So again, yes, you're right, it definitely could do more, but I also think that they have some good points. There's some almost there moments, I think. 

Quinn 

Oh yeah, and in in thinking about the times, like, I think that those some of those interactions and conversations were like stepping stones to, I think more fruitful ways to interact in those spaces and in those conversations, but it definitely, you know I I think that's a very presentist mindset to even look at some of those conversations critically, because you know, at that time those were conversations that were the most tolerant things got. So, you know, it's definitely have to make allowances for differences in in time. And I do have to say, I think talking about Prince Charmont as a character, I think he is one of the better, more developed Prince characters that you get in one of these Ella Enchanted Cinderella retellings, and I think Hugh Dancy really played like, I think, all of the acting in this movie is really phenomenal. I think that's a headline for me is that it's a very well acted movie, even though it's probably objectively pretty bad. 

Jane 

The script left something to be desired, but the actors did the best they could with it. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah, OK, let's just dive into it because I think that there is no better argument for “there are no small parts” than this movie because every single one of the actors in this movie like nails - and I don't mean like this in a casual like - nails their role. Like every performance I can think of, like one of my favorites to just like think about is Minnie Driver and like as Mandy who is like the fairy kind of governess of Ella and like she's not a very powerful fairy, so she's not that helpful in terms of her magical skill abilities, but like, she's kind of an ally to Ella in her abusive home and like, plays a role throughout the story. Very minimal and like the character of Mandy, I think I remember being pretty important in the Ella Enchanted book, and like they really, I think the writers really stripped this character of, like any kind of, like, notable personality. But Minnie Driver was just like, “Nuh-uh! Not my part!” And she just like, finds these like perfect comedic moments, and it's like she has like one line in a scene, and just like is so in character the whole time and is just like hysterical., completely matches like the attitude of just being like a little, like, sassy, and over it. And I'm like, that's just like one of the very bit parts. Like you've got like the the, I don't remember her name, but the actress who plays Olive, who's just like deranged and like all the, like, kleptomaniac stuff. And she's just like, “Ooh hoo hoo!” like, the whole time completely in character. Joanna Lumley is there, like, serving evil stepmother. Like she is not letting a moment go by without just like commanding the scene. Vivica A. Fox like comes in and does her like flashy, sassy little, like unhelpful cutaway scenes that are, like, again, all of these roles are pretty insignificant, don't have a lot of screen time, don't have much to work with, terrible script and like these actresses are just like, “This is the best role I've ever played in my life!” It's so much fun. It's like you talked a couple of podcasts ago about your favorite movies to watch being like ones where the actors are clearly having a good time. And like, I just feel like, you know, Anne Hathaway gives a fantastic performance and is committed and plays all the emotional highs and lows. She has the most terrible lines to say and she just like, gets through it like a professional. Hugh Dancy is like also having a good time, and it's like appropriately, like, kind of like charming and aloof. And like Slannen is memorable. Like he's got that, like, you know, conviction. And he has some very, like, silly, like, physical comedy moments as well. And then you've got like Jim, who's on Downton Abbey? Like playing this like ogre, who like has these dramatic cutaways while he's trying to eat people like just great performances all around.

Jane 

Yeah, I agree. I think that you're right. That is a big part of why I enjoy this movie is that it's very apparent that everybody was just having fun. And you get that, especially with the big dance number at the end, which is just kind of random and like, why are they singing Don't Go Breaking My Heart at a wedding? Like…

Quinn 

Ohh my gosh, it's so. It's fun though.

Jane 

It's just, yes. 

Quinn 

Like I I've never questioned… Like it's a weird song choice, but I'm just, that is one of the most joyful, perfect finales to a movie that I've ever seen, like where everyone gets a little bit of something to do. You like, get that fun, like end credits. Here's everyone's final bow, and it's just like a ton of fun. 

Jane 

Yeah, it's just unfortunate that Lucy Punch. Is that her name? 

Quinn 

Oh yes. 

Jane 

She doesn't get to be in it because- 

Quinn 

Well, and I just realized I didn't mention her performance, but I feel like it deserves its own subsection. So Lucy Punch, who plays Hattie, the step sister of Ella, the mean stepsister, I…. that is my all time favorite interpretation of the evil stepsister character, because Hattie is just like, very impetuous, but she is dangerous and she, like, serves a role in the story that actually, you know, like her ratting out Ella is what leads to some of the highest stakes in the story eventually, s I do feel like so often the step sisters are really just like bit characters that don't really have much to do other than like be mean to Cinderella in like one or two scenes. And I feel like she both took that sort of like superfluous, frivolous quality that the step sisters have and like, did that, but also, like, they did find a way to work her way into the plot. She had a bit of menace and a bit of intelligence that she was able to use to try to achieve her own goals. And then I think has a great, like, humiliating downfall. And this is made all the better by the fact that Lucy Punch is like this was her dream role to play a step sister. And be this character and like she is a step sister in Into the Woods and in something else, I'm pretty sure. 

Jane 

I feel like she's played Cinderella's step sister at least four times. 

Quinn 

Yes. And like that was her dream role and this actress is just like having the best time being this character. Like it totally shows and I think that Hattie is like a standout character and performance throughout the entire thing as well. And it is a shame that she is not in the finale, but it's because of a deleted scene. And you can see the deleted scene if you get the DVD. 

Jane 

Yes, which I think is a good way to transition into why we have seen this movie so many times because yes, it is fun. And yes, we would watch it a bunch probably normally anyway, but the reason that we have watched it quite this many times is because we had the DVD and we discovered how delightful the audio commentary is. And I didn't keep track of how many times I watched it with or without commentary. But I would say that more than half of the times I watched it were with commentary. 

Quinn 

Yes, I mean, I think it became… you could have almost kept track of this movie two different ways, like watching it in its original form and watching it with commentary, because I think you we went to either at different times when we were looking for different things in a viewing experience. 

Jane 

Yeah, but I would, I think that…that even if I counted them separately, the commentary watching would be enough to be in my Top 40. 

Quinn 

You know, I I was gonna say I Jane mentioned this episode. You mentioned it to me. And I kept thinking you were going to schedule it and schedule it. And I'm like, wow, Ella Enchanted really made it far up this list because it's been several weeks now. It's pretty deep in the ranking. 

Jane 

Yeah, it's #20 so it's in the top half. 

Quinn 

Yeah. Top half. I'm stunned. 

Jane 

Yes, but yeah, so I don't remember how many times I'd seen it just normally before we discovered the commentary. But the commentary is just… it just adds a whole other level and like one of the things that you said earlier that made me think of it was when you were talking about Vivica A Fox being fabulous. And like, Anne Hathaway mentions in the commentary the scene when she's tied up to a tree and Lucinda shows up and she's like, oh, I'm going to help rescue you. And she's like, no, I want to be chained to this tree so I don't have to kill Char. And in the commentary, Anne Hathaway says that, like Vivica A Fox was so excited to do that scene. And she, Anne, was kind of like, “I don't know. I don't really like the lines” and Vivica’s like, “Oh, I'm not gonna say the lines. But we're gonna have fun!”

Quinn 

Yes, one of an Ella Enchanted moment that I think about probably most of any other, although there's so many, is like right after she sets her free, Vivica A. Fox, is just standing in this, like, fabulous pose and she's like, “Well, aren't I fabulous?” while Ella is just like, “This is terrible! This is not what I wanted!” It's just like a fabulous moment of just, like, completely not taking in any of your surroundings. You're the main character, the story is you, forget about everybody else, forget whose movie it. It's, it's Vivica A Fox. It's just, it's fabulous. But yes, the commentary which it features, Anne Hathaway and Hugh Dancy. So the two romantic leads of the movie and Tommy O’Haver, who is the director, he's like maybe the one you don't know, but if you don't know him you should. They just narrate the whole movie and it is absolutely hysterical, like the tone that these three have together is great. It's as if they're the best friends. They probably haven't spoken to each other in a decade now, which makes me sad because in my mind they hang out every day and commentate on things. Like they just have great chemistry. You can tell all three of them had a lot of fun making the movie and they're just like having a good time, and you can really you feel like you were there with them, like making this ridiculous movie that really wasn't that good, but damn it, they worked hard. 

Jane 

Yeah and it's like it's exactly what you would want from audio commentary, I think, which is like behind the scenes trivia because they have quite a bit of that. And then just like some like tea, like a little bit, not a lot of tea, but just like sort of like, oh, this didn't work very well or like, I was actually really miserable this day or something like that.

Quinn 

Well, they talk about like, little like spats they had with each other, but it's like, “Oh yeah, we got in a fight about that that day. I felt very this way” like it's it's all like it clearly happened like over a year ago. 

Jane 

Yeah, so there's that. But then just also like. Each one of them has a different thing that they kind of focus on more, which is nice that like they're not just kind of saying the same thing because like Hugh Dancy talks a lot about, like the stunt people. And like he was friends with them. And then Anne Hathaway- This is another thing, too, is like the commentary, like, really shows you how and how Anne Hathaway was like, set up to be super successful in Hollywood because she, like, remembers everybody's name, everybody who worked on this, like even like all the like, minor crew people and she's just like, yeah, this person did a great job and she, like, seems very like gracious. And like she actually cares, but is also very good at networking. And I think that that's exactly what you have to be to be like successful and someone that people like. 

Quinn 

Well, and you really get a sense of Anne Hathaway's work ethic, too. 

Jane 

Oh yeah. 

Quinn 

Which I think very much it comes through in the commentary where you just, like, get a sense of, like, all the things that she's thinking about. You hear a lot of the things that she's insecure about, and just like all of the the dynamics of being the Anne Hathaway of of this movie, being a movie star, being the the center of attention, both like in the internal world of the movie and in the external world of making the movie and in the even more external world of like marketing the movie and being the star.

Jane

Right.

Quinn

Like it's a very actually like I think nuanced character study of Anne Hathaway listening to the commentary while being very fun. 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah. And it's just like she never comes across as like, “Yes, I'm the star and I'm super famous and everyone should love me!” It's kind of like, “Yes, I'm putting in the work and I like really thought about this character and I really wanted to do a good job in this movie and I think everyone else worked really hard on it too.” And like definitely giving credit where credit is due and not really being super like... I mean obviously she talks about her own experiences, but not being super self-centered and like like everyone should be talking about me right now. 

Quinn 

And I think all three of the commentators really had that posture because Anne Hathaway does a great job of like mentioning like the lighting in this scene is beautiful and done by this person, that tailor was a tailor who works in Ireland. But I also think that like Hugh Dancy talks a lot about the stuntmen and like it's clear that he was like, legitimately really good friends with them, like during filming and would hang out with them. And like I think Tommy O’Haver also really like spotlights you know, actors and other people that worked on the movie. Like, I think you listen to it and it's like not like just them listing the credits, but it's like interesting seeing all of the different people that they each had to work with and spent time with. And like, how interesting it is just to put all these different people with all these different specialties in the same project together and just like stunt men interacting with movie stars and interacting with directors, interacting with lighting designers, interacting with other actors, it's all just very interesting to hear about the interactions that went into making the movie. 

Jane 

Yeah, it really highlights which I think I mean is probably true of pretty much every movie is that, like, just how interactive making a movie is, and just like what a collaborative effort it is. And it's not just like, oh, there's a few people involved and then there's, like, the background people that kind of help a little bit. It's like everybody really has to work together and like that's probably obvious to people who have made movies before. But I think when you're in the audience, you might not necessarily realize, I mean you see the long credits at the end, but just like how many people are involved in bringing this together and just how much they have to work together and trust each other to do their jobs. And I think that the Ella Enchanted commentary was kind of one of my first glimpses into just exactly what that looked like. And I think that that's part of what has like led me to be further interested in like, I'm not saying like I'm a filmmaker, but just sort of finding out a little bit more of the behind the scenes filmmaker stuff was really interesting to me without it feeling like, OK, now you're sitting down to a Filmmaking 101 class it it's all very fun the way they present it, but just like it gets you thinking of like, wow, there's so many people who work on movies that you never see who are really crucial to the process, and I really like that aspect of it and that they're definitely sure to give people as much credit as they can and not like you said, not listing the credits, just saying like, oh, this scene was really this person, like, really made it by doing their job kind of thing. And yeah, I really like that.

Quinn 

Yeah, and I think lots of DVD features have commentary on them, and so we've talked a lot about this commentary and it kind of leads to the question like what do you get from this commentary that like maybe you don't get in other movies with commentary? Cause I can't imagine there's another one on your list that like truly, you couldn't think of without the commentary which Ella Enchanted, I mean, it's inextricable from why you've watched this movie so many times. You wouldn't have watched this movie so many times without this commentary. I think it has all of these great things we've been talking about how deep it is, but it's also very funny.

Jane

Yes.

Quinn

And I feel like, you know, we quote and we've Mandela effected quotes from this commentary where like they don't actually say what we have ended up quoting years later, but like we quote this commentary so much to each other. Like probably the most quotable moment is like there's a point where Ella is supposed to in the movie like end up stopped in the middle of the road and there's like a horse drawn carriage that’s going to come and roll her over and she can't move because she's been ordered to stay because the Prince is going back to get the purse that she was carrying with her. And like they just describe how the line was originally, “MY SATCHEL!!!” when she realizes that she doesn't have it, and then the Prince is like, “Wait right there. I'll go get it.” And they're like, we had to cut that because we couldn't say it without laughing and they were like, then we I think we said, well, where's my satchel? We changed mine to where's my satchel and we still couldn't do it. S then in the movie is like, “Where's my purse?” is what she ends up saying. But like the “MY SATCHEL!” quote like, it's just the whole commentary is stuff like that. My other one of my other favorites, I can't even say things are above the other because it's all amazing. It's like, I guess all the sets had these different like almonds for Prince Char? 

Jane 

Yeah, all the, the castle sets had these dishes of candied almonds. 

Quinn 

Yeah, and it was just like this weird character study. And they're like, we want everyone in the Kingdom to enjoy my almonds! Like that Prince Char has his, like, favorite almonds. It's like this random detail that, like, you never would notice. There's just so many quotable moments, and like by all of them, all three of them really have great, hysterical little one liners. 

Jane 

Yeah, I was struggling to come up with a quote to use at the end of last episode because I was like all the good quotes are in the commentary. Yeah, cause the my satchel thing in particular, I feel like, I can't hear the word satchel without thinking of that, and sometimes I just think of it randomly. Just like “MY SATCHEL!!!”

Quinn 

Yeah and I also think one of the things that we have not yet talked about that I think the commentary does a good job of highlighting too, is that I love the costuming for that movie. I think that the costuming is perfect and they do a great job of talking about the different costumes, and you notice that characters have like signature colors, which I'm always, I don't know. I always really like that in movies when characters have signature colors. I think it's fun. And I I like that what that does visually is kind of like builds like a recognition for a certain character and seeing what color they're wearing, but like, I think it's cool. Like the characters have signature colors. I think the costumes are beautiful and well done, and the commentary does a good job of pointing out when that's the case. I think that Ella Enchanted is such a weird world and like you hear about all the different weird ways that this weird world was created together. But I do think it works surprisingly well like all told. You know, having these like kind of 70s-80s musical influences with kind of this like modern sensibility and the humor with like, costume, that kind of blended old and new with the signature colors, like something whimsical that pops like it all kind of like doesn't make sense in a way that makes sense. 

Jane 

Yeah, I think that the world is kind of similar to the world of Shrek in a way? Like, I think Shrek has a lot of those like… it's like sort of a medieval world, but also there's a lot of modern jokes. And I think that Hercules kind of does that too, of like being like set in the past, but also with these very modern jokes. And I think that was just like a really big thing in like the late 90s/early 2000s to kind of make that sort of world? And they really ran with it and Ella Enchanted. I think they really just leaned into, like, we're going to make this weird. And yeah, it works so much better than you would think it would on paper, if just like, yeah so it's like kind of medieval castle fairy tale but also modern, but also like from a few decades ago, and we're just going to throw all those things together. And yeah, it just really works. And I do agree that the costuming really helps with that because the costumes are, like sort of whimsical, but also like very focused on like the characters and like Ella’s are a lot more practical than like the step-sisters have, like the most ridiculous costumes, especially at the end. 

Quinn 

Shout out to Hattie’s ring in the ball scene. 

Jane 

It is like…her ring is like as big as her hand.

Quinn 

It is so ridiculous and so it's just perfect. 

Jane 

Giant orange. 

Quinn 

And I mean, I love the the fairies, like, especially like Lucinda, like has a very, I would say modern, like it's a very costumey, like think like, sexy fairy at Halloween outfit, but it's like Nope, it works. Let's go for it. And I think also having Heidi Klum in the movie helps with its fashion appeal. 

Jane 

Oh yeah. 

Quinn 

Heidi Klum is a giant. 

Jane 

I wonder if they consulted her, if like, she was a costume consultant too. 

Quinn 

I also have to say that we have not talked at all about Cary Elwes yet.

Jane

Oh yeah! Quinn

And I love his performance, talking about performances, he is clearly having a marvelous time. And I also love kind of the meta connection to Princess Bride because I do also think that there are some elements of, like it's like almost like a more modern frenetic world than Princess Bride is, but there's like, I think they serve as like similar kinds of movies, at least on paper. 

Jane 

Yeah, it does have kind of a similar tone to that. It doesn't have nearly as witty of dialogue as Princess Bride, but it definitely has like, a similar like world feel. Yeah, I definitely see what you’re saying. 

Quinn 

Like you could imagine, some of the characters interacting, so I think it's very… there's a fun parallel that like he's sort of in the story as more the Humperdinck character than, you know, being the romantic lead ultimately that he is in Princess Bride. 

Jane 

And he he was like just… He's so good, like, especially because like, as his character progresses. Like earlier in the movie, he's just sort of, like, vaguely menacing. And by the end, he's, like, completely like… maniacal laughing, just like going completely overboard with, like, I've just completely lost my mind! And he does that so well, like- 

Quinn 

And that's you can tell that's a choice that he made as an actor because you could have very easily played all of that very flat and probably not gotten the effect like you get that from his performance is what really gives you that story. 

Jane 

Yes. Oh my gosh I love the scene when he, after Hattie, has told him that Ella has to do whatever she's told, and he's, like, making her do the hokey pokey and all this stuff. But he's doing the most ridiculous dance in the background and it's like you're trying to make her look silly, but you look way sillier and it's so good. 

Quinn 

Yeah, like just the the gleeful evil of of it all. Yeah, it's it's really, it's fantastic acting. I'm telling- like, up, up, down, anywhere you look in this movie: well acted. 

Jane 

Yeah, 100% of the time. And then he has a snake sidekick. Which is very like reminiscent of a lot of Disney villains - which is part of why I always think this movie is Disney, but it's not Disney - but I think that they did a really good job with that snake. I guess originally they were going to have like an animatronic puppet and they just couldn't get it to work so they ended up-

Quinn 

Can you imagine how silly that would have looked? Like, I think them talking about their pathway to arriving at the conclusion that this snake had to be CGI is very funny in the commentary. 

Jane 

Yes, yes. Because it's like, um yeah, no, that wouldn't have worked. So they ended up with a CGI snake. And I think it looks good. 

Quinn 

It's very well done. It's fantastic and I think the the actor, I mean it's mostly a voice performance, but the acting is very good with Heston as well. 

Jane 

Yeah! Yeah , so I think that and that really adds to carry out was his character. What is his name? Edgar?

Quinn 

Edgar, who is the evil uncle. Sorry if we haven't said that. Yes, he is the king, who is the uncle of Prince Charmont, who is Hugh Dancy.

Jane 

And I think like the uncle killed the father? 

Quinn 

Yes. 

Jane 

It's like a little, little Hamlet moment. 

Quinn 

It’s kind of – a criticism: It's kind of thrown together. It's like, OK, I guess he killed the father. Like I want to see him killing the father. I wanna see the blood on his hands! 

Jane 

And then he's trying to kill Char also, I'm not exactly sure why… 

Quinn 

It's kind of Lion King action like… 

Jane 

Because Char was going to be coronated. Yes!

Quinn 

So I guess he was like kind of a Regent ruler because the dad had been killed and and the dad was much more, the king was much more tolerant of other life groups like ogres and elves, and then Edgar becoming the king, he made a lot of these like species segregationist policies so...

Jane

Yeah

Quinn

It's presumed that with Ella next to the throne and with Char being a much more morally upright person that with Edgar's passing and his coronation, things went right in Frell or Lamia or whatever the kingdom's name is, because Ella’s from Frell and Lamias where the castle is. I don't know what the whole common is called. Andalasia. 

Jane 

[laughs] Probably. It's also really interesting how they decided that, like the people from Lamia would have English accents, and the people from Frell would have American accents, and then they cast like mainly American people to be the Lamia people and mainly British people to be the Frell people. 

Quinn 

It was chaotic what was going on with the accents. 

Jane 

Yeah so people had to do different accents. I mean not entirely, cause like Hugh Dancy is actually English and had his normal accent. Anne Hathaway had her normal accent, but like, just like Minnie Driver had to do an American accent. 

Quinn 

And that one notable fairy who has that bit part does like a New York accent in in Lamia, but she was like Irish. 

Jane 

Yeah, well, yeah. And the person who plays Ella's mom was actually British or Irish or something, and…

Quinn 

[New York accent] Finding her would be something terrible.

Jane

[laughs] Yeah.

Quinn 

So many good lines! 

Jane 

There's some, there's some very strange accents going on, but it's fine. It works. 

Quinn 

Also Parminder Nagra is there.

Jane

Oh yeah.

Quinn

And she is honestly not one of the more memorable performances, but she does a really good job! 

Jane 

It's really upsetting, like, that's like one criticism that I have: I would really like to have seen another scene with Parminder Nagra's character at the end like… 

Quinn 

It's really stuck in there, like the resolution of that storyline with like like it- you can tell they like there was probably some scheduling problem of like her filming ER or something because like, it is weird. Like Areida is Ella's best friend. And and like they set up their characters and Ella actually like, really like screws her over because of the curse. 

Jane 

Yeah, it's a heartbreaking scene. 

Quinn 

It's a really sad scene and then I think that for whatever reason, they couldn't film any better resolution to that story other than like she just comes to the wedding and like, there's a cutaway scene where she's waving to the carriage and just goes, “Good luck, Ella!” 

Jane 

And you know she was waving at nothing. 

Quinn 

And yeah, like, there's no way those women were in the same room when that happened. 

Jane 

Yeah, I mean, she is in the room at the wedding, like with her, and they cause she's part of the Don't Go Breaking My Heart 

Quinn 

Yeah, but like I that could have been filmed in post too, that cutaway shot. 

Jane 

That is true. Um, yeah so I think they really needed a scene where Ella explained what had happened. 

Quinn 

And like you assume that they were, you know, they healed the friendship, and they were in a good place. But like, they never said that. 

Jane 

Yeah, it's like, I mean, I get that they put that in there to show just like how bad, because that kind of was what pushed Ella over the edge of like, I guess I just have to live with this curse to being like, no, I need to get rid of this because her stepmother made her tell her best friend, like, “I could never be friends with you, and you suck, go away” basically. 

Quinn 

And yeah, I really, I think if it was a better script or like a better story, like the movie version, I don't really remember like how it happened in the book, but for the movie world that was created, I think involving Areida in some of the machinations at the end to, like take down Edgar would have, really fixed a lot of the, like narrative hole that is left with that storyline, like just to have Areida like give her some marginal role even where like she's for some reason there and can like help them do one thing like in the sequence to take down Edgar. Like just plug her in somewhere. And I think that would have been really nice to like have like her helping the cause and like reestablishing their relationship and then like then maybe you don't really need a final scene between them. You can just kind of use what you have at the end and be like, yeah, they figured it out. 

Jane 

Yeah, I agree that definitely would have been a really good way to do it, but… 

Quinn 

I mean, they have Heidi Klum in the end part like... 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah. Because she and Slannen have a thing. 

Quinn 

Yeah, they get together, which is there's a lot of questions I have, but it's fine. 

Jane 

Yeah, but I think that that's really, I mean, no offense to the writers, but I think there were like 5 writers on this movie, and like I don't know that they had a cohesive idea of what they were going to do with it. I think it was kind of like, OK, there's this really popular book and this really popular actress that we can write a thing for. 

Quinn 

And doing movies like this is very popular. 

Jane 

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, this is the time to do this sort of modernized but not fairy tale type thing. And we're just going to throw it together and hope for the best. And I think that it does work a lot better than it had any right to on paper, based on the dialogue and the script. And they talk about that a little bit in the commentary. They're like, very gracious about it, but there's certain moments where they're like, “Yeah, I never really liked this line,” or, like, “I never really felt like I said this right.” 

Quinn 

I think they're pretty upfront with saying the lines that they had issues with saying. 

Jane 

Yeah, but they're not, they're not gonna, say like, “Oh this whole script was trash.” 

Quinn 

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, in fairness, there's a couple funny, like “My tongue itches” is funny. 

Jane 

That is true. Yeah, there's some good lines in the actual script, but I think overall that's really the weak point. And just like the fact that they were able to get these amazing actors and some of them are like super famous, others I like, haven't really seen in anything else. 

Quinn 

Eric Idle is in the movie also. 

Jane 

Oh, I forgot about him! 

Quinn 

See, like you just keep thinking of people. There's a lot of performances. 

Jane 

And I think that they all just showed up and were like, “We're gonna have fun. We're gonna make this movie.” And it just really comes together in a very entertaining way. 

Quinn 

I do think also what helps is that the characters they're playing are all kind of archetypes. What talented actors are able to do, they're able to take these archetypal characters and sort of have an interpretation of them kind of ready to go. And so I'm, I'm also kind of thinking like, that's these are just good professional actors that like these are not like tough characters. They're just like they're ones that you can really like sink into and, like, get- they're, they're like, really meaty roles that like a good actor, will know what to do with. 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, that's a good way of putting it. So yeah, so it's just it's just fun entertainment, but again, it just becomes like so much more fun and entertaining when you have the commentary on and you just hear them chatting with each other about their memories of making this movie and the good and the bad and the ugly. 

Quinn 

And if you like podcasts, I imagine you'll like the commentary because it it really does, I think feel like you're just sitting around the table with friends or sitting on the couch watching the movie with, you know, the friends or like people that were making the movie. Like it's a a really good aura that the commentary has. I feel like and again and thinking about like what does the commentary have that other commentaries don't? Like I think a lot of other commentaries are very cold and very like stale almost and like they come in for these very like discrete parts and they'll say, I did want to mention when we were watching this that this blah blah blah. And then they'll stop and they'll go back to the movie. Like, this is just this continual conversation that goes throughout the movie pretty much. 

Jane 

Yeah, I think a lot of times, especially when the commentary just has the director, they can get very technical with like just saying, like explaining how each shot was set up. And just like, I mean some of that is very interesting, but I think it almost feels like you're like going to film school or something or like you're sitting in a lecture and I definitely tend to prefer the ones that have multiple people and especially like, I mean, I don't want to say like we only care about the actors, but I think actors know how to perform better than directors do a lot of the time, and so they know how to be entertaining. I would say Ella Enchanted is like far and away my favorite, but there's a few others, like I talked about the Mary Poppins one. And I think that one is really fun for different reasons, because they're looking back with like 40 years of distance. But it's the same sort of thing of like they're interacting with each other and reminiscing together. And I think that's a lot more interesting than just hearing one person sort of give you a lecture about how this movie came together. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah, and what the actors do, and I mean that's what they are when you're watching the movie, they are the audiences perspective, like into the world of the movie and, and so I think that you you feel like, you know, actors in a way that you don't feel like you know directors or people that are not on camera. And so, yeah, I think they're very practiced at bringing that perspective to an audience and sort of serving as that messenger or the gateway that an audience has to a story. And then I think to Tommy O’Haver’s credit. I think he's very charismatic. And so you feel like you know him or you like, get to know him through the course of the commentary. There's many directors whose commentary I've seen that I didn't really get a sense of who they were as people, but I feel like you get to know Tommy O’Haver and you like him. 

Jane 

Yeah, I think that he, like, definitely takes his work seriously, but I think he doesn't think too highly of himself. I think a lot of directors have really big egos, which I think to a certain extent you have to for that job because you have to be in charge and you have to like get people to listen to you and so you have to think relatively highly of yourself. Otherwise you're gonna be like, “Well or- or not or whatever.” And you can't do that when you're a director. But I think that with Tommy O'Haver, he's like, he wants people to have fun on his sets, I think. And he's like, very proud of his work on this movie, clearly. But he's also, like, very gracious to the stars that he's talking to and like, very quick to point out when they did a good job, which I think they're more hesitant to do, like they don't want to toot their own horns as much. And so he's like, very much like, saying, “Wow, you guys were really great to work with and you did such a good job too.” And like that, they were exactly what he wanted for this movie. And I think that really helps make the commentary just seem a lot more fun, too, is that he's not being like, “I made this movie and I was so great.” It was like, “Thank you guys for doing such a good job.” and all of that, so I really like that. 

Quinn 

Yeah, he's he seems like- I would, I would be an actor or, like, work on a movie that he was the director for. I feel like he would be a good person to work with. And yeah, I do, it's interesting that you note that they the actors do I feel like have a hard time like tooting their own horn and like one of the main things that I feel like Anne Hathaway is comfortable like talking about is like her physical appearance. And like, she'll be like, “Oh, my extensions look so good at that point.” And I do feel like that's something that, like you think about, like the Harvey Weinstein of it all and like just a lot of some of the really, like, dark things about Hollywood and like, how sad that is that like, that's what she felt like, you know, those were some of the ways that she could, like, step into her own and, like, talk positively about herself. And then you think about like all other things that were going on like in the industry at large. I also think it's really great to hear like, a man complementing like the female star of the movie, who was like indisputably the star of the movie. And again, another good example of like female led projects like they're this idea that they're not as successful. It’s like here is another like- that's something I love about this movie, that it is a female led movie, that it's like, yeah, Anne Hathaway is perfectly capable of carrying a movie on her own shoulders. 

Jane 

Yeah, and it's interesting too that like the director doesn't at any point that I recall in the commentary. Maybe, he says, like… Because I do think like Anne Hathaway does complement her own appearance, she all is also very critical of it. 

Quinn 

Well, and and that's also true too. I mean just I think that's sort of where I was going, too and tying in like some of the larger cultural things, she is very critical of her appearance at times too. 

Jane 

One of my favorite parts though, is when she's like watching herself perform and she's, like, cringing. And they're like, “What are you..? And she's like, “Oh, it’s just a tooth thing.” 

Quinn 

Well, they're in the middle of complementing the lighting in the scene, and they're just like, “Oh, this lighting is so beautiful” and it is really beautiful. It's like flickering flames that of course, were, like, done digitally, but it looks very real and they're complimenting it and then and and Hathaway just goes, “Eugh!” And then then she's just like, “Sorry, it was a tooth thing.” 

Jane 

Yeah, but I think that what I was gonna say is I don't remember at any point, I don't think he ever really talks about her appearance other than to say, like, “Oh you look fine” when she's criticizing herself. I think that he's way more focused on her work and her her performance and like how dedicated she was and like she was in basically every scene and that she had to work really hard and he really gives her a lot of credit for that. And I think that's, like you were saying, a big problem in Hollywood is that a lot of actresses like you focus more on their appearance and what they're wearing and all this stuff. And I think it’s really great to see a male director recognizing that his female star really put in a lot of work and did a lot of stuff besides, just like looking pretty in this movie. And that's yeah, it's really great to hear that, especially on a movie that was produced by Harvey Weinstein. 

Quinn 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's very true. And I just, I think. We've already spoken a little bit about this, but like, Anne Hathaway is just such a treasure, I think, like, and it's been very interesting, and like I I mentioned her in the same sentence with like Jennifer Lawrence and Emma Stone earlier in this conversation. And like, just thinking about, like, what Anne Hathaway's trajectory has been, and then what those actresses’ trajectories have been where I think there there was, you know, generally good favor around Anne Hathaway for a long time. And then, like all of a sudden kind of around the time of her Oscar win, people kind of soured on her and felt that she really was sort of distasteful. And then just like having her image kind of come back around from there and now I think she has a very like, you know, people have a lot of, like, nostalgic affection for her being in all these beloved classics like Princess Diaries and Devil Wears Prada and Ella Enchanted. But then she's also, you know, an Oscar winner and like, taken very seriously, like, I think she's kind of reached that, like, you know, prime part of her career where she's been through all of these things. And we've seen actresses like Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence kind of on a delayed timeline, go through some of these same things like, I just think that Anne Hathaway, I really have a lot of respect and appreciation for all of the things that she's weathered. Being a young woman in Hollywood and having to kind of- that she was in these beloved projects. She's had periods of being very well loved, periods of being kind of hated and has sort of weathered the storms and has continued to to work and deliver really phenomenal performances, I just- I think she's such a gift and I'm glad that she's still out there kicking ass and making amazing movies. Like I love Ocean's 8, that's fairly recent, and I think that she still has some very exciting career moves left. I'm- I can't wait to see her as she continues. 

Jane 

Yeah, and I think it's really interesting because she was getting a lot of hate for a while, for like no really good reason. Like, I don't feel like anyone could point to like something horrible that she said or did. Like maybe she like said something that was maybe a little bit questionable, but like, I think now people are coming around to being more like, you know, she was never actually terrible. People were just mad at her for being a successful woman like, cause, I mean, some people like they said something super racist or something or like that was interpreted in a bad way. But I don't even know that anyone's been able to point to something like that. 

Quinn 

I think probably the thing that I heard or that that's been on in the news cycle was the Witches movie that she was in and sort of depicting people with limb differences as like witches and, there was some backlash to the way that the witches were portrayed and how that looked similarly to people with limb differences and sort of othered people with limb differences, or at least this was some criticism of that movie. And I thought that Anne Hathaway had a really, um… I was impressed with the apology that she offered and she made, I thought, a really powerful, well thought out statement that just said, “I didn't really do my homework fully here and this is upsetting because I upset people that I did not want to upset” and it owned the mistake, and just you know, said that she would be more careful moving forward and you know, like, I just think that's something that I appreciate someone that can stand up and apologize when they did something not fully thought out. 

Jane 

Yeah. Well, and I don't remember hearing anything about that, but like the Witches was based on a novel by Raold Dahl, whose prejudices are well known at this point. 

Quinn 

Yeah, so I I think it's… I don't think that Anne Hathaway should be held accountable for like production decisions that were probably outside of her control, but she still did take accountability. And I thought in a way that- I appreciated the thoughtfulness of the statement I ended up reading. 

Jane 

Yeah, I think that she's always been very good about responding to things which, like, maybe she just has a really good PR team. But like, she definitely always knows how to, like, stand up for herself when she needs to, but then also, you know, not just double down when she makes mistakes. And I think that's really great. I know she was like a really big advocate for legalizing gay marriage and things like that. Like, she's really been somewhat of an activist in terms of issues that she really cares about, which I think is great. She's just a really… seems like a really good role model to be a movie star. I mean, obviously she's not perfect. I don't think that anyone has a right to expect her to be perfect, but I did really appreciate that, like when Ocean's 8 came out and everybody was like, “Wow, Anne Hathaway is like, the best part of this movie that is a great movie and has a lot of great parts.” And then some people were like, “Yeah, she's the best part of every movie she's in. Why has it taken you this long to notice?” Like people kind of coming back around to being like, “Yeah, she's always been good. Why did we hate her?” 

Quinn 

Well, and I think it's fabulous because in that movie she plays an actress who you kind of think is going to be like, obnoxious and not really that great. And then she ends up being, like, essential to the con and… 

Jane 

Yes, I love that. And like I kind of wish that they had done something like that in Ella Enchanted with Parminder Nagra's character. 

Quinn 

Right. 

Jane 

Like, that's what they needed to do is like bring her back and have her be like, “Yeah, OK, you really hurt me. But now I'm gonna help you” kind of thing. Yeah. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah. And I mean, I guess I do feel like you tend to have things for actors and actresses that are older. You know, I think of a lot of your actor obsessions being, you know, people from a bygone era that were dead before you were born. I feel like Anne Hathaway has been an actress that sort of we've grown up with that we've sort of seen come of age - we remember a time before Anne Hathaway and saw her rise - that you've really enjoyed. And I think have looked at as like I would say, I think you're a particular fan of Anne Hathaway. And like I I think that that's that's interesting, and I'm curious if… you've probably already described many of the things that maybe have drawn you to her more so than like other actors of her generation. 

Jane 

Yeah, I would definitely… I mean, I'm sure there's bigger Anne Hathaway fans than me, I'm not like her number one fan or anything, but definitely she's one of the actors that I've been more of a fan of. And like, she's less than 10 years older than me, so she’s like pretty close to my generation and I think that a lot of it is that, like, she's an Old Hollywood fan, like she has a lot of those sensibilities of, like, the Old Hollywood actors. And I think that that is something that I've picked up on even without like that consciously being why I like her. But I do think that that has helped. That like she is definitely very modern, but in a way that takes things I liked about the older Hollywood style. Like I think she probably would say that she's more of a method actor and a lot of the actors I like are kind of before that became the norm. But like, I think she's still very much the like, get up there, say the lines and think about that rather than just being like, “I'm going to fully embody this character!” which is something that kind of irritates me about actors sometimes as being like, “I'm just becoming this person now.” It's like, I think she she's got that sort of line between herself and her characters that a lot of the like, more like modern stars… I mean, I'm, I know there's modern actors who are great, but I think the like movie star leading role people kind of rub me the wrong way sometimes. But like I think that she has similarities to like the old Hollywood stars that I'm a fan of, and sort of bridges that gap into the modern era, if that makes any sense? I truly don't know if I’m explaining this- 

Quinn 

I think that's all really interesting and I think makes a lot of sense. I think that's a cool observation and I'm just thinking tying it back to Ella Enchanted, I was thinking the last time I watched it specifically, I was like, what is different about Ella from Princess Mia? Like where… where are the lines there? And in truth, I think that there's a lot that's similar about Princess Mia and about Ella. And like I think that, yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I know that you really love like Cary Grant, for example, who I think Cary Grant has range and has performances that it's very transformative between roles, but he does have a brand and he has a style and like a lot of movies, it's like here's like a specific character, like this one's a scientist, this one's a teacher, this one's a, a that and we're just going to do the Cary Grant version of like that profession or like that. Like we're going to give him a few boundaries to work with that are like character defining traits, but then he's going to bring the Cary Grant brand to it. And they feel like that's almost what the transition from Princess Mia to Ella Enchanted is, is it's like, we're going to change the the formation of these characters in a little bit of different ways, and like I I notice like the Princess Mia, Lily friendship is kind of flipped in Ella Enchanted, and like Arieda is much more like Mia, and Ella is much more like Lily in that dynamic and like that, the fact that they're activists and like going to, like protests and stuff, I feel like kind of mirrors each other. But it's very much Anne Hathaway bringing the Anne Hathaway brand to each of those characters, and like they're both very Anne Hathaway. Like, you get her as a star, you get the brand of her, you get the identity of her while she's in kind of just these different formations of like, that protagonist character that leads the movie one way or the other. 

Jane 

Yeah, I think it's like there's certain movie stars who, just like, always play the same character. And it's like, OK, that's that actor, that's that actor, that's that actor, and it gets a little bit redundant. And then there's other actors who are like very much blend into their roles, which if it's done well, I think that that's really good and I really appreciate that. Like, I like Meryl Streep, and like those kind of like… really good. But I think there's some actors who are like, “I'm just going to be completely different in this movie!” and it just, like, doesn't quite… gel with me, I guess? I don't know. But like, I think my favorite kind of actors tend to be the ones where, like you can always tell it's them, but they're doing different things and like they're very versatile within their wheelhouse, like it's not they're doing the same thing every time, but at the same time they they bring themselves to it. And I think that that that Anne Hathaway is very much like that. Because obviously like playing Fantine in Les Mis is very different from playing Ella in Ella Enchanted like they're completely different characters. And I'm not saying like, “Ohh yeah, but it was just Anne Hathaway doing that.” Like, she's a good actress. But I guess I just, I feel like I get her persona a little bit more and like I… I don't want to say it like I'm trying to like insult any actors, but I just think that I tend to resonate with the ones that are more in the style of the Old Hollywood people who were like themselves, like you were saying bringing Cary Grant brand to different characters and I think Anne Hathaway has a very strong star personality and I think that that really comes out in the Ella Enchanted commentary and I think that it's very telling that that was like so early in her career because it was only a few years after Princess Diaries. But she was already like, “This is me. This is who I am. I'm a fully formed person and I'm not going to let Hollywood mess me up too much,” I think, because I think a lot of people fame can really go to their head. And I think that, I mean, there's no way for it not to a little bit, but I feel like… at least the way she comes across, I'm not claiming to know her, but I feel like Anne Hathaway has- seems to have kept her integrity throughout the fame. And I really respect that and it's been really fun to see that like through the ups and downs of her career so far, and I'm sure there's much more to come from her, she's not that old, so I'm sure she'll be- 

Quinn 

Right. No, we're it's not… this is not a memorial of Anne Hathaway. But yeah, I think that makes sense. It's interesting to hear what's really attractive about her from your perspective. Because I I, I think that does make a lot of sense, and I really do kind of see her as someone in that that just kind of feels right, you know, in thinking about Anne Hathaway as someone who's sort of… is in the older school of, you know, being that type of star, and I really do think that that's some of her best strengths as an actor and that she's she's immediately someone familiar. Like she, we've grown up with her on screen in various roles and like I think that that is something that a lot of those older actors really bring to like a sense of familiarity, and that allows you to really get into the story because they have such potent brands and their brands are not necessarily like “I'm a completely different person in everything I'm in.” Like I'm almost like Meryl Streep is an actress who people talk about as being very transformative. I almost think like Nicole Kidman is kind of that actress. I'm just like, “Satine is the same person as Virginia Woolf?!” Like she's someone to me that I'm like, Nicole Kidman could be anybody, like… 

Jane 

Yeah, or like Daniel Day-Lewis. 

Quinn 

Yeah. Yeah, like additional people. 

Jane 

And like, no offense to them like, I think they're amazingly talented and I- 

Quinn 

I think what you're describing is like actors that maybe don't have the ability to be that transformed or just like are overcommitted to the process, to the point where it's just like an excuse to be mean to people. Like Jared Leno. 

Jane 

Oh yeah, everybody who's played the Joker has been like, “I'm going to use this to be mean to people.” So yeah, there are definitely actors who do that really well and like, all power to them, tons of respect. But I think that there's some actors that just try to do stuff throughout their career that I'm just sort of like, that's fine, but I don't really like love that as much. And I think that in the Princess Diaries 2 commentary Anne Hathaway talks quite a bit about old movies that she likes. And I think that that is sort of what has given me the impression of, like, oh, that's why I like her. Because she also is taking from these old movies. And I think that a lot of the more modern actors who I like have something in common with the Old Hollywood style of acting. 

Quinn 

Is this the first Anne Hathaway movie on the podcast? 

Jane 

I think so.

Quinn

Oh!

Jane

I think it's only this and Princess Diaries. 

Quinn 

OK. That makes sense that I haven't really heard your thoughts about Anne Hathaway on the podcast yet. Another comment that I wanted to make about Anne Hathaway's performance style: I actually see a lot of similarities to Ginger Rogers and like how you were describing Ginger Rogers was like, at least perceived by Katharine Hepburn at like the time of Stage Door. I can see some similarities in like how they came across, and I think Anne Hathaway is less known for her dancing, but just the, you know, the really like competent professional model that can deliver really versatile performances and kind of has a few like tricks. And it's not just the acting, it's also the singing, or also the dancing or both. I I see, I see there being something sort of similar between the two of them. 

Jane 

Yeah. And just like that, people wanted to work with them. Because I think that was part of Katherine Hepburn's issues earlier in her career is that she was very difficult to work with, which like I understand like- 

Quinn 

 [laughing] I can't imagine Katharine Hepburn being difficult. 

Jane 

I know, right? 

Quinn 

That's why she's the perfect Susan Vance! 

Jane 

She was like like, I mean, obviously I feel like even now women are not treated very well in Hollywood. And back then, it was very bad in a lot of ways. And so, like, I can't really fault her for like, standing up for herself, and that got you labeled as difficult, so I think some of it was that, but I think also just like I think Ginger Rogers would have been willing to be friends with her, and she was very much like, “No. We are not friends.” Based on Anne Hathaway’s commentary, like, it seems like she’s very gracious towards everybody she was working with and like, I mean, maybe there's people out there who've worked with Anne Hathaway who were like, “Oh, no, she was horrible.” But I don't think I've heard any stories about her actually being hard to work with, whereas like some stars like I just off the top of my head, Christian Bale comes to mind of like crew members being like, “He just always yells at us” and stuff like that, and I think that like easy to work with for actresses can be code for just like very compliant and never standing up for themselves. And I don't think that that's what Anne Hathaway is like. But I do think that, yeah, she's more of a Ginger Rogers than a Katharine Hepburn in terms of like people want to work with her. So yeah, I think that's a good, that's a good analogy to draw. We’ve talked a lot about Anne Hathaway, but I think she deserves it. 

Quinn 

Yeah, well, I'm… knowing that this is her debut on your countdown, I I feel like she's somebody that I think of as a modern interest of yours. Someone who's still alive that you like and follow to some extent. 

Jane 

Yeah, well, there's- when I keep track of the movies I watch, there are certain actors who I update every year when I update my spreadsheet of like how many movies I've seen of theirs and how many times, and like list out like which movies I've seen which number of times for each of them, and most of the actors I track are from Old Hollywood. There's a few more modern ones. Yeah, Anne Hathaway is definitely one of those. And I think that also like being introduced to her along with Julie Andrews, like I wasn't a huge Julie Andrews fan before Princess Diaries. And so I think that like that movie, which I will talk about later, but that really made me really like both of them. And so I kind of think of like, me being a fan of Anne, starting at the same time as Julie Andrews. And so they kind of, like, go together in my mind. And I think having this other movie that's kind of similar to Princess Diaries in that she's playing sort of a princessy type character, but different soon after that really helped fuel my interest in like, keep my interest in Anne Hathaway after Princess Diaries. 

Quinn 

Yeah, it's honestly beautiful in many ways to think about that pairing for Princess Diaries cause I think I'm sure you're not alone in some way in that story of being introduced to both of them at the same time, or reintroduced, I think a lot of people probably know the Sound of Music and Mary Poppins at least. But yeah, I mean, I think that it's very cool that like, what a great, you know, way to burst onto the Hollywood scene than with the Julie Andrews movie and yeah, I think it's cool to think of how a lot of people must have become fans of both of them at the same time and must kind of attach these two very talented women who have both dominated the entertainment industry for quite some time. I think it's, yeah, it's, it's cool to think about that that's where Anne Hathaway started in a lot of homes. 

Jane 

Yeah, you know, and Julie Andrews continues to have a career, but also is more known for being sort of at the end of the classic Hollywood era, and that she similarly burst onto the scene with a big role that made her an instant star because- 

Quinn 

And that was sort of a kids’ movie too. 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was a Disney movie. And so like to start as the star of a Disney movie and then just kind of go from there. And Julie Andrews has also had many ups and downs in her career with people loving her and then not liking her that much and like that has happened to her as well, which I think it happens to anybody if you're around long enough. But yeah. So I think that having that connection to Old Hollywood directly also seems more of my jam. And it was fun for me to see somebody closer to my age also talking about liking old movies and things like that. I'm like, OK, cool. I'm not alone in being interested in Old Hollywood, as a younger person who's still alive. And I'm sure that there's a lot of other actors who feel similarly also, like I think you kind of have to if you know your craft, you're going to have seen older movies. But yeah, I think she's been open about like, “Yeah, I I like Audrey Hepburn” and things like that, so… 

Quinn 

I was going to say she does give me a very Audrey Hepburn type vibe, but like almost like spunkier than Audrey Hepburn but Audrey Hepburn was pretty spunky too, so I wouldn't. I wouldn't take that away from her.

Jane

Yeah.

Quinn

To completely change the subject: amatonormativity. This movie is a love story. How do you feel about that? 

[both laugh]

Jane 

Yeah, it is definitely a love story. I do think that it's interesting that like, Ella does not at any point set out to find love. She does fall in love with Char definitely, but that's not her objective. Like it's an important part of this story, but ultimately like, that's not what the story's about. Like, I think it's much more about her curse and trying to break away from her having to be obedient. 

Quinn 

And really, her learning to use love as a tool to be the, you know, the most, like, actualized curse-liberated version of herself. I think that that's like important, too. Like she she realizes that love is something that she wants in her life, like a romantic love is something that she she wants and that that is sort of how she learns to use love as a way to break the curve. 

Jane 

Yeah and I feel like it's never really been an option for her up until that point, because I think that one of two things would happen. Either she would marry someone who would then, like, completely take advantage of her curse and just- 

Quinn 

Yes, that would be very scary for her. 

Jane 

Or she would end up really hurting her partner by having to do stuff because someone else told her to, and that kind of almost happens the second one. Because Char is very kind and understanding and like even there's certain moments in the movie when he like says something and she starts to do it and he's like “That wasn't an order. Like, I'm not trying to make you do stuff you don't want to do.” 

Quinn 

He's very taken aback by her in all ways because he's used to women throwing themselves at him and so he's very taken aback that Ella doesn't do that at the beginning. And then he's taken aback when she's like overly compliant on things that he meant as more like suggestions and just like interpersonal interactions. 

Jane 

Yeah. 

Quinn 

There's a lot of commands and casual conversation we learn through Ella Enchanted. 

Jane 

And I think they do a really good job with that and there's this great moment when he says, “You have to stay,” and she's like, “OK, I'll stay.” And he's like, “Well, no, you don't HAVE to stay.” And she's like, “OK” and she, like starts to leave. He's like, “But I would like you to stay.” And then she does. And I think that she really appreciates that he wants to give her her own agency when she's never been able to have that. But then of course, Edgar manipulates it and tries to get her to kill Char, and I think that that is part of why she was like, “it's not good that I'm in love with him” cause she knew something that could happen. I don't think she anticipated it happening quite like that or quite that soon. So I think it's very strong of her to allow herself to fall in love with Char and then to be able to overcome the curse, fully break it, rather than killing him, and… side note: another of my favorite parts of the commentary is when she says “I do love you, Char,” and then she raises the knife cause she's like being forced to. And in the commentary, the director goes, “I'm just not in love with you.” It's like, that's what you do. You kill them when you say that!

Quinn

It's iconic.

Jane It's great. But anyway, she is in love with him and so I think that again a lot of what I'm learning through this project is a lot of my favorite love stories are the ones where like falling in love is not the path that they were supposed to go on. Like with Sound of Music like she wants to be a nun. She's not supposed to fall in love with anyone. And then she does. And I think that often with amatonormativity the path is like you are going to fall in love and get married and have kids. And for Ella that's not her path at all initially. And so I think I really enjoy stories where people are forging their own path and not doing what society or other people around them tell them to do. Which is especially poignant in this movie because she literally has to do what everybody tells her to do for most of the story. And so I think that like, because there are all these things about like why, not only should she not end up with Char, she shouldn't end up with anybody. And so I think seeing like, but she wants to and she makes that happen for herself is more powerful than a lot of the like, typical romantic stories where it's like, maybe these two people are pulled apart by various forces, but like, they're going to find someone and marry someone. That's less interesting to me than stories like this. 

Quinn 

That's interesting. 

Jane 

But again, it's like there is the romantic element of it, but there's so much more going on and it's so much more about Ella finding herself and finding her own voice when she's being constantly talked over and drowned out. And I think that that's…that's what I like about this story. And like the love story is incidental. But I do think that it's good that Char is so much kinder to her than most of the other people she encounters besides Slannen I guess. 

Quinn 

Other than the romantic relationship, what are your favorite relationships in Ella Enchanted? 

Jane 

Ooh, that's a good question… ha, Edgar and his snake? 

Quinn 

You know that's a good one. I honestly think I might like the Ella and Mandy relationship.

Jane

Oh, yeah.

Quinn

I know it's not emphasized much, but you can just tell that they have a good rapport. I I guess I like Minnie Driver and Anne Hathaway in scenes together, they seem to really have a good chemistry, but yeah, I I like, I like that bond. I think that the step sister bond is funny and interesting. One of my least favorite relationships is the relationship between the father and Ella? Like he is so weird, like because he does- you get the sense he cares about her, and is like mildly intelligent. He's just, like, distant, like, absent, like always on on the road. So he can't be involved in the home situation, but like he's kind of a little weird. 

Jane 

Yeah, he- Well, he's very underdeveloped. And I also think it's very interesting how like, it takes him a really long time to notice that she's gone and you just see, like, this one random scene where he's, like, talking to the stepmother and “Where's Ella?” And she's just like, “Oh, she's off with Hattie and Olive, it's fine.” And it's like she's been gone for many days at this point. Like, did you just notice that she left? 

Quinn 

[stepmother impression] “She’s taking a tour of the castle.” 

Jane 

[continues stepmother impression] “With Hattie and Olive.” I mean, Joanna Lumley just is very, very funny. 

Quinn 

It's honestly the main performance of hers that I think of. I feel like this is very embarrassing. I know she's in lots of other things, but I mainly think of Joanna Lumley as an Ella Enchanted actress. 

Jane 

I mean, I feel like most of the people in this movie, there's like two different levels of people. It's like either, “Oh yeah, from Ella Enchanted!” or like, “They were in Ella Enchanted?!” 

Quinn 

Yeah, there are two choices. 

Jane 

Yeah, except for like Anne Hathaway, obviously it’s like, I know she's in Ella Enchanted, but I don't automatically think of Ella Enchanted. But like Hugh Dancy…

Quinn

He’s Prince Char!

Jane

He's just so ingrained in Ella Enchanted for me and I think that like, obviously, Anne Hathaway is the main star of this movie, but Hugh Dancy does a great job and I think he does a good job also of like stepping back and letting her be the lead of the movie. 

Quinn 

Yeah, he's really fantastic and I like the character of Char and it's all a yes for me on the Prince Char front. And I think like their relationship feels very earned throughout the movie. And I agree, you know, I think that it's like, ugh does every movie have to have a romance? Like there is a a quality of like, this probably didn't need to be there, but it is, but I think it's an earned relationship. I think you can see how they're both willing to be supportive of each other. I think you can see how they're helping each other grow. I think that Ella really does challenge Char’s complacency in his privilege. And I think that, I don't know what does Char really do for Ella? Um... 

Jane 

He saves her! 

Quinn 

Oh yes, he does save her from the ogres. I think that she does view the world in a really adversarial terms because she has to, to, like, protect herself, and I think that he kind of helps her bring down her walls a little bit. I think you see that throughout the course of the movie. So, yeah, I think they're both, like, really enriching each other's lives in a way that is nice, and they have good chemistry. I feel like I would watch the Hugh Dancy/Anne Hathaway rom com in the future, like I would see them paired up in another movie. 

Jane 

Yeah, I think that that one objection that I tend to have for a lot of especially rom coms, but romantic movies in general is that a lot of times I feel like the relationship between the leads is actually kind of toxic if you think about it and, like…

Quinn 

Yes, it's true. 

Jane 

…one of them is stalking the other, like something really creepy is happening that you're supposed to think is cute, and I don't feel like we get that with the Ella Enchanted one. I feel like they have a really good organic falling in love. And also like with a lot of Cinderella adaptations, I feel like the Prince is usually very underdeveloped as a character. 

Quinn 

And it's we talked about this when we watched all the Disney movies. Like it's probably one of the biggest flaws in the Disney Cinderella, which is sort of a standard classic interpretation of Cinderella. I think there's other versions of Cinderella that improve on it a little bit, but there's frankly many that follow in the same footsteps of having kind of an anonymous prince. 

Jane 

Yeah. And like on the one hand, that's fine, cause it's Cinderella's story. But on the other hand, I'm like, this is very much Ella’s story, but I feel like we understand who Char is and he's very well developed and their relationship is very well developed. Like we have many scenes together. At first, like she really doesn't like him. It's a trope that happens in many romantic films of like initially one of them is like, “Ugh, I hate you,” and then they get together eventually. But I think it's very gradual and just feels very organic and it makes sense. And so yeah, I I am in favor of their romance. Like I- 

Quinn 

Well, and he's also, not looking at Ella as a conquest, even though it's very clearly established when they meet that like she's not into him and he is sort of like allured by that because he's very used to like running from a screaming horde of fans. And so, like, you can tell that he's both like this is of interest to him that Ella has resistance to him because it's unusual, but it's not like- There's a very easy way to make that character very toxic then, and to say, like, oh, I'm going to conquest this, and I don't think that that's how he feels about her. And it's really they don't cross paths again until he's saving her life from the ogre. So there's like a very good, like, high stakes reason for him to intervene in her life at that time. Like, there's not, like, a creepy, like, I'm gonna get that girl who resisted me. 

Jane 

Well, and he doesn't know the full story of what she's doing because she's not allowed to tell anyone about the curse. But like he's willing to help her find her fairy godmother, like, basically no questions asked. And you don't ever get the impression that he's, like, doing it to like, because there's, you know, the whole friend zone of, like, “I was nice to her, and now she's not sleeping with me.” Like you don't get the impression that he's helping her to get in her pants or anything. Like he really wants to help her. 

Quinn 

Yeah, there's not really any like subversive stuff that you feel like subversive motivation that he has that you sense he has ever. 

Jane 

Yeah, yeah, I think they do a really good job of that of like, I think he would be OK with being her friend and advocate. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah, and you get the sense that he wants a peer to, like, talk to because he can't talk to any other young women because they're too busy, like screaming about him.

Jane

Yeah.

Quinn

Like, I don't… I can't imagine he's having, like, really deep conversations with a lot of the other people that are in the fan club that are just like, “Char’s naked in the shower?!” and like, just like screaming. Like literally screaming and like chasing him down. Like I think if there's anything that Ella Enchanted is a cutting analysis on stan culture because they really put the stans out there and say “You're blowing your shot by acting this way. It's not cute!” 

Jane 

Yeah, and I I think he also he's like tired of being overly sexualized. And so the fact that she sees him as a person is really like not just to turn on for him. Like obviously that's part of it. And like he falls in love with her partly because she is not screaming at him. But I think, like, just they're able to get to know each other, person to person, and that's really what you feel like their falling in love is is like now that I know you as a person, I really have this deep connection with you, and I think they have some great scenes together that really show that. So again, I like that the romance isn't the main part, but I also really like the way they do the romance in this movie. So I think it gets a pass from me of being like this is a good romance movie. 

Quinn 

The Jane Ace star. 

Jane 

Yes, exactly! You could be aroace and still appreciate the relationship that they have. 

Quinn 

The aroace sealed romance. 

Jane 

There you go. And, yeah, I do think that there's other good relationships. I really wish that the Ella/Areida relationship was better developed because I would really like to have that strong female friendship because again there’s… it is a female driven story, but the secondary characters that are more developed tend to be male characters like Slannen and the ogre Nish…

Quinn

Edgar.

Jane

Edgar, yeah. Whereas like you have, like, the stepmother and the step sisters who are great. And then... 

Quinn 

And and Minnie driver, you have Mandy. 

Jane 

Mandy, yeah, but I would love to see more from them. 

Quinn 

And Lucinda. 

Jane 

Yeah, but Lucinda is, I think every moment she has great. 

Quinn 

And there could be more diversity in the cast, too. That's also a critique. 

Jane 

Yeah, always. But at least they're not all white. 

Quinn 

It's true there is some diversity. 

Jane 

Minimal diversity, but yeah, yeah, absolutely. More diversity, would love to see a… like because everybody kind of, not everybody, but some of the other characters get paired up because you have that random like Slannen and Heidi Klum thing. It was like he could have found a man to be with. Like we could have some, queer pairings here. I mean it’s fine. I think that like I do enjoy this movie on its own. I don't feel like it would have made it into the Top 40 without the commentary. 

Quinn 

Well, yeah. And I think I think it's probably like a less polished version of, like, Mamma Mia in the sense of like, I imagine, like, you would watch this movie for similar reasons that you would watch something like Mamma, Mia and maybe Mamma Mia is just like a little bit sharper of a movie. Although it is also, I think in the same like it's kind of stupid at times and like embraces being stupid and yeah, it's like it's a random musical for no real reason. It's fun and so I feel like that's why it's also easy to watch the commentary because that just like makes it more fun. 

Jane 

Right, yeah. 

Quinn 

And so, you know, I think I agree, I don't know that this is like the best movie on its own. But I think the combination of it being a lot of fun, having fun commentary, sort of striking some of the same balance of like Mamma Mia and other movies that have ended up high in your countdown. That could be what it is. It's just it's just the right cocktail of all of those things. 

Jane 

Yeah. Well, I think it's very chaotic and eclectic, but ultimately, like everybody was making the same movie. And I think that really helps that like, yes, there's all these different pieces and all these different things going on. Which I guess is kind of what makes it feel a bit more old movie-ish that there's like this very convoluted plot of several different characters doing things. But yeah, everybody, I feel like everybody was on the same page. Everybody knew what movie they were making. They knew it was kind of silly and not really that amazing. And they were all just OK with that. And I think that really makes it work a lot better than it would have if people were like, yeah, this is whatever a trashy movie, we're just gonna get paid. And I feel like everybody was just like, we're gonna show up, we're gonna have a good time. And yeah, I think that that really comes across to the audience and that's what makes it an enjoyable movie, despite not being a great movie. 

Quinn 

Yeah. Sounds like the right recipe to end up on your countdown. 

Jane 

Yes, exactly. So thank you so much for being here with me and talking for a very long time about this movie that we both love. 

Quinn 

Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. I love discussing anything related to Ella Enchanted. 

Jane 

Yes, and I'm so glad that you were here to discuss it with me.

Thank you to Quinn for all of your insights and questions, and thank you listeners for sticking through my longest episode yet. I hope it was still fun and interesting for you – it certainly was for me. Now that we’re in the top half of the list, I feel like I’m going to have more to say about each movie, so they will probably start trending a bit longer, although I’m sure my solo episodes will still be much shorter than this. But before we get back to just me talking I have one more special guest episode lined up, so stay tuned for another long one next week, about a very different type of film. As always, I will leave you with a quote from that next movie: “She may be risking her life, but when it comes to being a lady, she doesn’t hold a candle to your wife, sir, sitting in Washington, playing bridge with three other ladies of great honor and virtue.”

[compneuropapers]

Interesting Papers for Week 6, 2023

Visual evoked feedforward–feedback traveling waves organize neural activity across the cortical hierarchy in mice. Aggarwal, A., Brennan, C., Luo, J., Chung, H., Contreras, D., Kelz, M. B., & Proekt, A. (2022). Nature Communications, 13, 4754.

Model-based characterization of the selectivity of neurons in primary visual cortex. Bartsch, F., Cumming, B. G., & Butts, D. A. (2022). Journal of Neurophysiology, 128(2), 350–363.

Rational use of cognitive resources in human planning. Callaway, F., van Opheusden, B., Gul, S., Das, P., Krueger, P. M., Griffiths, T. L., & Lieder, F. (2022). Nature Human Behaviour, 6(8), 1112–1125.

Explicit knowledge of task structure is a primary determinant of human model-based action. Castro-Rodrigues, P., Akam, T., Snorasson, I., Camacho, M., Paixão, V., Maia, A., … Oliveira-Maia, A. J. (2022). Nature Human Behaviour, 6(8), 1126–1141.

Novelty and uncertainty regulate the balance between exploration and exploitation through distinct mechanisms in the human brain. Cockburn, J., Man, V., Cunningham, W. A., & O’Doherty, J. P. (2022). Neuron, 110(16), 2691-2702.e8.

Expansion and contraction of resource allocation in sensory bottlenecks. Edmondson, L. R., Jiménez Rodríguez, A., & Saal, H. P. (2022). eLife, 11, e70777.

Long-term memory retrieval bypasses working memory. Liu, B., Li, X., Theeuwes, J., & Wang, B. (2022). NeuroImage, 261, 119513.

Rational arbitration between statistics and rules in human sequence processing. Maheu, M., Meyniel, F., & Dehaene, S. (2022). Nature Human Behaviour, 6(8), 1087–1103.

Modular strategy for development of the hierarchical visual network in mice. Murakami, T., Matsui, T., Uemura, M., & Ohki, K. (2022). Nature, 608(7923), 578–585.

Efficient coding of numbers explains decision bias and noise. Prat-Carrabin, A., & Woodford, M. (2022). Nature Human Behaviour, 6(8), 1142–1152.

Learning shifts the preferred theta phase of gamma oscillations in CA1. Rayan, A., Donoso, J. R., Mendez‐Couz, M., Dolón, L., Cheng, S., & Manahan‐Vaughan, D. (2022). Hippocampus, 32(9), 695–704.

Two distinct ways to form long-term object recognition memory during sleep and wakefulness. Sawangjit, A., Harkotte, M., Oyanedel, C. N., Niethard, N., Born, J., & Inostroza, M. (2022). Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 119(34), e2203165119.

Strategy updating mediated by specific retrosplenial-parafascicular-basal ganglia networks. Serrano, M., Tripodi, M., & Caroni, P. (2022). Current Biology, 32(16), 3477-3492.e5.

State transitions in the statistically stable place cell population correspond to rate of perceptual change. Tanni, S., de Cothi, W., & Barry, C. (2022). Current Biology, 32(16), 3505-3514.e7.

Human inference reflects a normative balance of complexity and accuracy. Tavoni, G., Doi, T., Pizzica, C., Balasubramanian, V., & Gold, J. I. (2022). Nature Human Behaviour, 6(8), 1153–1168.

Understanding implicit sensorimotor adaptation as a process of proprioceptive re-alignment. Tsay, J. S., Kim, H., Haith, A. M., & Ivry, R. B. (2022). eLife, 11, e76639.

A neuro-metabolic account of why daylong cognitive work alters the control of economic decisions. Wiehler, A., Branzoli, F., Adanyeguh, I., Mochel, F., & Pessiglione, M. (2022). Current Biology, 32(16), 3564-3575.e5.

Neural mechanisms of credit assignment for inferred relationships in a structured world. Witkowski, P. P., Park, S. A., & Boorman, E. D. (2022). Neuron, 110(16), 2680-2690.e9.

It’s in the timing: reduced temporal precision in neural activity of schizophrenia. Wolff, A., Gomez-Pilar, J., Zhang, J., Choueiry, J., de la Salle, S., Knott, V., & Northoff, G. (2022). Cerebral Cortex, 32(16), 3441–3456.

Neuronal congruency effects in macaque prefrontal cortex. Yao, T., & Vanduffel, W. (2022). Nature Communications, 13, 4702.

[nightskylonging]

Android AU, Part Two

So, who in this AU is an android? Oh boy! Let's talk about it!

Some quick worldbuilding first: I already said that the androids chose their own names and that the teams don't know about this. So, what does the world know them by? This has changed over time. Originally, it was generally by the name of the model - so a Red Bull android, say, the seventh, would be RBAP-7 (Red Bull Android Program Seven). Ferrari have the SFAP line, Mercedes the M-P-AMG? AMG-M-P? But humans are incapable of not naming things, so that got thrown out the window. Now, it's common for an android to have a sort of logo animal (coughhoneybadgercough).

Now, let's get into the meat of this post.

Daniel Ricciardo: Android known as the Honey Badger. Brought in by Red Bull.

Max Verstappen: Human. Second person Daniel trusted with his name. These two get along insanely well, and even though androids don't usually do a lot of marketing work, people clock this.

Seb Vettel: Human. The first person Daniel trusted with his name, after Seb figured out that he was sentient. By 2022 has gotten to know most of the androids on the grid through patience and some trial and error. (It doesn't always go over well when you blindside your teammate with 'sentient?, 'course you are, how's your day going?')

Carlos Sainz: Android from the Red Bull program. Known as Meerkat. (Chose this one because he's said a couple times that it's his favorite animal. Also big eyes go stareeeee.)

Charles Leclerc: Android from the Ferrari program that debuted with Sauber. Known as Mouse. He does tell Seb his name while they are teammates, though it takes him a good long while.

Quick sidenote here: I've gone the combo route with the androids. They do have hardware (Ultralight skeletons and insanely fast processing most notably), but wetware is a big component, because it's lighter. So their musculature and external appearance is quite within the norm. Long way to say, C2 are still the 'This is Charles. Charles loves his personal space. This is Carlos. Carlos also loves Charles's personal space' meme, Mediterranean limpets that they are.

Lando Norris: Human. Knows about Carlos's sentience, and by extension has put together that the androids on track are hiding this from most everyone involved in the travelling circus. Puts his foot in his mouth with this a bit, early on with Daniel, who was not expecting Lando to cotton on to this.

As a matter of fact, the 2019 season was notable for all three rookies being human. This doesn't stop rumors from cropping up the way they tend to about 'x driver is secretly an android', usually targeted at George.

Fernando Alonso: Android. Goes by his name. The old man war criminal we all love. Delights in baffling people, and it's extremely common for f1 newbies to just assume he's just a Dude. (That doesn't sound like it might come up when people start discussing android sentience openly, not at all...)

Other human drivers: Lance Stroll, Esteban Ocon, Kimi Raikonnen, Oscar Piastri, Valterri Bottas, Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg, Alex Albon.

Other android drivers: Yuki Tsunoda, Pierre Gasly, Logan Sargeant (Not relevant to the story at all, I think), Nicholas Latifi.

A note on team principals: Christian Horner Knows. Never says anything, but he Knows. Toto Wolff would know, but none of the Mercedes drivers are androids. Mattia Binotto does not know, and it's probably a good thing he doesn't.

[the-strength-of-the-wolffe]

Wolffe’s Story

Intro  Pt1  Pt2  Pt3  Pt4  Pt5  Pt6  Pt7

Part 8: To Look Beyond (the Citadel)

The bridge hummed with activity as Wolffe entered. The commander on duty, Neb, acknowledged him with a glance but did not pause his round of the stations. The crew were attending their controls in a state of concentration associated with a heightened workload—a change in the flight was imminent. At the forward viewport, General Plo stood silhouetted against the brilliant whorls of light. He had called Wolffe there.

“Final approach,” Neb announced.

With a faint shudder through the floor panels, hyperspace dissolved into the magnificent hazy sphere of Coruscant.

Blinking away the afterimages that lingered so vividly in his augmented vision, Wolffe crossed the deck and joined General Plo at the windows. Last he checked, the capital world was not on their itinerary—in fact, they had been there quite recently.

“New orders?” he asked.

The General’s arms were folded over his chest, as they often were when he was preoccupied with a problem. He stirred, leaning toward Wolffe with an air of secrecy. “Remember the briefing about the Nexus Route?”

Wolffe did, after quick reflection: it had been delivered to commanders and higher some days ago; the two of them had reviewed it together. He lowered his voice to match the General’s. “Those hyperspace lanes…that would give us access to enemy space.”

General Plo nodded. “A Jedi in the Outer Rim has secured the coordinates, but Separatist forces intercepted him and are holding him prisoner. A rescue mission is being planned.”

Wolffe straightened a little. It had been a good while since their last rescue. “Where is he now?”

“Lola Sayu.”

The General’s voice was heavy with significance, and a name, unfamiliar but ominous, surfaced in Wolffe’s memory. “The Citadel…”

“Indeed.”

Wolffe had heard rumors of this place: a prison unlike any other, said to be inescapable, sitting deep in Separatist territory. The gears started turning in his mind. “What’s the timeframe?”

“That has not been decided. I am meeting General Kenobi and others to devise the strategy.”

That brought Wolffe up short. When it came to rescues, the 104th seldom collaborated with anyone outside their immediate circle, for doing so caused delays that they usually could not afford. Success or failure, life or death, hinged on the swiftness of their response in most situations, so setting off without backup and prepping on the fly were the norm for them.

General Plo seemed to appreciate how extraordinary his statement had been, or at least he had caught Wolffe’s questioning look. “What we are about to attempt has never been done,” he explained. “The more help we have, the better. I’ll be in contact.”

Wolffe squared his shoulders. “We’ll be ready and waiting.”

The General inclined his head in a wordless goodbye. As Wolffe watched him stride from the bridge, a peculiar feeling crept over him. He was not accustomed to being excluded from the planning, typically a team effort between the two of them and their officers. It felt wrong. He let out a controlled breath, refocusing his thoughts.

By then, Commander Neb had brought the cruiser into orbit, and soon afterward he reported that General Plo had departed for the surface.

Moored kilometers above the Jedi Temple, there was little for Wolffe to do except ensure that he and his officers were as familiar with the Citadel as possible when the call to action came. He wasted no time summoning all four of his captains to the command center. The prospect of infiltrating the notorious detention facility—what would likely be the greatest feat of the careers of those who would be going—energized them. Jockeying for space around the holotable, they pored over schematics and discussed tactics that the generals might employ.

Wolffe could appreciate now why the Jedi Council had held off on a strike. The Citadel truly warranted some serious considerations. However, when several hours passed with no word from General Plo, he knew his captains were growing restless, for he felt that way himself.

“Alright, men, that’s enough for now,” he decided, tapping the control panel to close a diagram of the Citadel’s lower levels. “Pick your squads and get them up to speed. I’ll inform you of the final headcount when I hear from General Plo. Be ready to mobilize.”

Torc, taking it for the dismissal it was, nodded and donned his helmet. Midnight followed him less briskly, but the other two did not move. Roan remained at the holotable, his palms braced on the rim, while Dire kept his seat on a nearby console, turning his helmet in his hands.

“What is it, Roan?” Wolffe asked. There was something foreboding in the captain’s expression, which, coming from the best strategist among them, gave him pause.

Roan roused himself. “It’s not about the Citadel,” he signed.

“Then what?”

The captain hesitated, reaching up to run his fingers through his red-streaked hair, over the knotted part that hid his scar. He met Wolffe’s gaze with a look that was both apologetic and grim. “Something’s off.”

Everyone stared at him and then exchanged glances, shifting. No one had brought up the subject during their meeting because Wolffe had kept them on task. Now that he was forced to acknowledge it, he knew Roan was right. They had been out of the loop for too long—long enough for plans to change, or move ahead.

“What do you mean?” ventured Midnight, although from his tone he seemed to have an inkling.

“I’ll tell you what’s off,” volunteered Dire, before either Roan or Wolffe could answer. He thudded to his feet. There was nothing vague or reluctant about him. “What are we doing here?”

“We’re awaiting orders,” interjected Torc. “That’s all you have to worry about.”

Dire spared a second to scowl at him. “I mean, why haven’t we left yet? This is taking too long. The Jedi could’ve spilled his guts already for all we know. We should be—”

“You better pray that hasn’t happened,” Wolffe interrupted, harsher than he usually would have if he had not been rubbed the wrong way.

A flash of surprise, then Dire’s eyes hardened in his scarred face. He folded his arms slowly and said no more.

Wolffe clenched his jaw and then sighed. He had not meant to exacerbate the tension, nor offend his friend (however unhelpful). “Look,” he said, firmly but with no heat. “I know this isn’t how we usually operate. But this mission—you know the strategy has to be perfect. That’s what they’re working on.” He gestured toward the planet to indicate the Jedi. “And don’t worry about them, they’ll get it done. They know the stakes as well as we do.”

Dire turned his head away, broodily eyeing the direction Wolffe had pointed. “You’d think they’d want all the help they can get,” he muttered.

Wolffe experienced bizarre twin feelings of amusement and unease. It took a special kind of nerve to consider oneself on the same level as a roomful of high-ranking Jedi tacticians, as Dire apparently did. But his comment also reminded Wolffe of what General Plo had said earlier. He felt a twist of his earlier misgivings, and wondered again if they had all misjudged the situation.

Torc was making a wry remark about the sort of help Dire could offer the Jedi Council. Losing patience, Wolffe stepped forward to intervene, but a ringing beep sounded from the holotable, stopping him dead.

Every head snapped up as the ghostly projection of General Plo appeared in their midst. Marveling at the perfect timing, Wolffe almost missed the transmission for its brevity.

“Commander Wolffe, the 104th will be in reserve for this operation. Stand by.”

For an instant, his brain seemed to lag. He heard himself answer with unnatural crispness. “Copy that. Standing by.”

The holoimage vanished, and a pregnant silence followed. The atmosphere shifted palpably, almost as if the lights had dimmed.

So, they were out. Some other battalion would be going to the Citadel. It felt like a shock—and at the same time it felt like he had known all along. Too many factors had not added up, too many irregularities. He sought Roan’s gaze and registered the same resignation in the captain’s face that he felt himself.

“Reserve?” groaned Dire. He seemed to deflate.

“Who’re they sending?” Midnight’s voice had pitched up in indignation. “Is the General still going?”

Hidden under his helmet, Torc showed no sign of disappointment, but he tarried a moment to trade glances with Roan. “Permission to leave, Commander?” he asked tonelessly.

Wolffe held up a hand to deny him. Professionals though they were, he could not dismiss them in this state. “Listen up, all of you,” he rapped. The four captains stiffened to attention. “Obviously, this isn’t what we wanted to hear. It doesn’t make sense, and we all have questions.”

He glanced at Midnight. “If I had to bet, I’d say the General isn’t going either. In fact, I don’t think he knew until just now.” It was a hunch, but he felt intuitively that he was right.

He addressed all of them again in a bracing tone. “This is what I do know: there’s a reason this happened. We’ll have the answers later, but right now we have to sit tight and follow procedure. Return to your posts.”

It was a bitter pill to swallow and nothing could alter that, but it helped that he believed every word. His perplexity matched theirs, yet it did not supersede his trust. He knew General Plo would have a logical explanation for them when it was all over.

That confidence seemed to carry to the others; the mood was subdued but not dispirited as the captains trooped from the room. Wolffe slapped Dire on the shoulder as he passed, earning a half-chagrined eyeroll.

General Plo did not communicate face-to-face again, but he forwarded brief messages. He was indeed remaining behind, to Wolffe’s relief. The strike team had left, and the cruiser was to stand ready in case an extraction became necessary. From the 104th’s perspective, extractions were less exciting than rescues because infantry units played such an insignificant role in them—the navy ran the show from start to finish. Nevertheless, as the word spread and the wait stretched into another rotation, the tension Wolffe and his captains had felt earlier seemed to build like a thundercloud throughout the ship. He could see it in his own troopers, and in the crewmen as well.

Finally, the order came. They were to make all haste to Lola Sayu for a surprise attack on its defenses, during which an extraction of the strike team would take place. In an instant, the tension burst and melted away, replaced by cool anticipation of the mission at hand.

With his battalion sulkily stowed in their quarters, Wolffe made his way to the bridge to observe. The number of personnel had increased, as had the noise levels. Commander Neb had been relieved by Commander Valor, an officer Wolffe liked well. He and his crew were flat-out in their preflight checklists while Admiral Coburn, freshly arrived, fired off instructions to the fleet from a comm station.

Within minutes General Plo entered, accompanied by another Jedi whom Wolffe recognized but did not know by name. They were deep in conversation and advanced no farther than the holotable, where a conference was getting underway. The command center blast doors were soon closed, effectively corralling Wolffe on the bridge, but he did not mind. As the cruiser jumped to lightspeed, he settled himself among Valor’s crew, who gladly accepted his offer of help.

The work was familiar and absorbing. Only the sharpening ache behind his cybernetic eye betrayed how long he had been standing under the strobic glare of hyperspace. They were late into the flight.

Angling his body away from the viewports to give both eyes a rest, he noticed that the blast doors had been reopened. The holotable was shut off, and the two Jedi had moved to opposite sides of the room. General Gallia—someone had mentioned her name earlier—was conversing with Admiral Coburn, but General Plo worked alone at the starboard display screen where the fleet formations had been pulled up.

Wolffe had not expected to speak to the General during the mission, keenly aware of the tremendous workload he and the others bore. However, on this last leg of the journey, a lull had fallen over the whole deck, a sort of “calm before the storm” where everyone had done their best to prepare and now awaited the moment to act. He checked their ETA. There was still some time.

Curiosity overtook him, and he picked up his helmet, tucking it under his arm decisively. With a sweeping glance to confirm his presence would not be missed on the bridge, he treaded a discreet path into the command center. As he approached, he watched General Plo’s movements carefully, reassured that he seemed to be reviewing, not making adjustments.

“General, do you have a minute?”

The General must have sensed him coming, for he did not turn or react with surprise. “I can spare exactly one,” he said with the faintest hint of teasing, before the characteristic gravitas returned. “What’s on your mind, Commander?”

He was not going to turn him away. Heartened, Wolffe drew a quiet breath. “Why didn’t they pick us for the strike team?”

The General continued to tap and swipe through the data in an unhurried way, but he answered without hesitation. “General Kenobi volunteered to lead it—with General Skywalker, of course. Naturally, they wanted to bring along their own men. I could not go,” he added meaningfully.

Just like that, the pieces started falling into place. None of it was surprising. Having benefited personally from a daring rescue of Skywalker’s, Wolffe expected nothing less of him, and General Plo’s disqualification he had already figured.

Still, something niggled. Not everything about the mystery was cleared up. “I understand,” he said, wondering if he was being impertinent but plunging on anyway. “It’s just—the 104th—we’re good at what we do. Even if we didn’t run point, we could’ve assisted them.”

As the words left his mouth, his body tensed. An inexplicable clutch of doubt informed him that he had said something erroneous even though he had simply voiced an opinion. He had no time to work it out.

General Plo lowered his arm, resting it on the one that curled around his torso. He did not look away from the screen, but the slightest stilling of his breathing and posture signified that his attention had shifted fully to their conversation.

“A 104th unit was considered to accompany the strike team,” he said quietly. “But, I could not go.”

A fresh wave of confusion broke over Wolffe. Forgetting his airs, he turned his head to search the General’s face. He could not read the expression under the mask from that angle, but he had a sinking feeling. “You mean…you wouldn’t let us go without you?”

General Plo sighed. With a strange heaviness, he swung around to face Wolffe, who almost took a backward step.

“As your commanding officer, I am responsible for you,” the General stated, implying with a gesture that he meant all of them—officers, crewmen, troopers. “Your risks are mine. You understand this, I’m sure.”

Wolffe nodded reluctantly.

“I was given a support role for this mission,” the General continued. “I had a choice: to deploy you, or to keep you in reserve with me. I know which you would’ve preferred. You are lion-hearted, as are your brothers. But you do not know the Citadel. It is deadly. There would have been losses, no matter how much planning was done, or who was sent. I would not have you face that danger alone.”

Turning back to the screen, he resumed his work as if the matter were settled and nothing more needed to be said.

The dismissal registered too distantly to trigger a conditioned response in Wolffe. He stepped back automatically to give the General space, but his head remained a whirl of conflicting thoughts.

“You’re disappointed.”

General Plo had not missed a beat.

His unnerving perception brought Wolffe back to himself. “Not disappointed, sir,” he corrected. “I know you’ve got our backs, and I appreciate it. I do. But…we’re soldiers. Taking risks, making sacrifices, it’s part of the job and we all accept that. It’s what we have to do for victory.”

The General’s silence was concession enough. “Even so,” he said wearily. “If I can keep you alive another day, that is a victory unto itself.”

The sentiment caught Wolffe off-guard, as did a memory that shot forward the next instant: blood-red light, fear thick enough to be smelled, and the General standing over him as calm and indomitable as a fortress. Words echoed back to him as though from underwater, murky and near-forgotten.

I value your life more than finding that weapon.

That was the declaration General Plo had made in the escape pod, all those months ago, on the worst day of Wolffe’s life. How quickly he had brushed it off! As he turned it over in his mind, pieces of another puzzle began to take shape.

“What you told Sinker,” he said slowly. “That you’d put our lives before the mission. You meant it.”

General Plo straightened and leveled a long look at him. It was calculating and uncertain at the same time, an expression Wolffe had seen only once before on that face, not too long ago, during another weighty conversation. He did not blink, or even breathe.

After a moment, the General dipped his head in affirmation.

Of course it was true. Wolffe saw the picture clearly now, what he had somehow missed from the beginning:

Why the General had always gone with them into battle. Why he had combed through the strategies beforehand. Why he had helped them recover the dead afterward. Why he had provisioned the wounded with medical care that exceeded (sometimes far exceeded) accepted Kaminoan standards. Why he had opted to carry out certain missions alone, despite the most forceful pleas to reconsider.

It was not about being strategic or responsible, as Wolffe had assumed all that time. It had never been about Republic assets.

I value your life.

A coldness clenched his stomach. Principles he had been taught since cadethood rose in protest: how warfare worked, the greater good, why he and his brothers existed in the first place...

But just as strong—even stronger—the presence of those brothers drew close. Fox. His crew on the Triumphant. Sinker and Boost. His captains. Comet. Lives he valued, valued beyond his capacity to express, many of them demeaned and discarded by those who did not feel the same.

His heartbeat thrummed in his ears. He could not stop it then, or undo it now, but it would not happen again.

Not with two in the fight.

He lifted his gaze to General Plo’s—the fierce aged face, drawn and intent as it observed him, obscured by metal yet deeply knowable and known—and a pang lanced through his heart, warming him to the core.

It might have been his imagination, but the tautness in the General’s shoulders seemed to ease.

His pulse quieted. He became aware of the hum of the screen, its radiant heat on his face. Adjusting his helmet under his arm, he pivoted back to face the display. After a pause, the General mirrored him.

“Fighting will always be in our blood,” Wolffe said at last. It was the truth. They were clone troopers, warriors to the end. They would never shy away from a good cause.

“And the war must be won,” agreed the General, clasping his hands behind his back. “But there is more to life than fighting. Or rather, there are other things worth fighting for.”

Wolffe weighed that and hummed his assent. His brothers’ faces were still clear in his mind.

The General must have misinterpreted the sound. “You’ll see, one day,” he intoned.

It was not a flippant remark; it was a promise. The future was not a subject Wolffe bothered with on most occasions. He did not bother with it now, except for one particular unknown. “And you’ll be there?”

He spoke without thinking, but it felt like a natural assumption and he was not ashamed.

General Plo considered him again, his expression softer. “If the Force wills…I should think so.”

Wolffe could not help himself. He smiled.

A female voice broke in smoothly. “Master Plo. It’s time.”

As soundless as a shadow, General Gallia had closed on their position and stood at General Plo’s elbow, appraising them both with a warm expression.

General Plo nodded to her. She slipped away.

Perhaps she had been eavesdropping, but Wolffe did not particularly care. He folded his arms in a light-hearted imitation of Dire’s earlier disgruntlement. “Well, you Jedi could’ve at least asked for our advice. We had some good ideas.”

“Some of the advice I gave, I learned from the best,” replied General Plo in all graveness. “Care to come along?”

“You’re not flying?”

“Not this time.”

And Wolffe knew why. Another smile threatened to make an appearance, one too many for his liking, so he pulled on his helmet and activated the comm system. “Comet, report to the flight deck.”

The response was instant and energetic. “On my way.”

Wolffe glanced at General Plo, and without a word they fell in step with one another, following General Gallia toward the lifts.

[panther-os]

I'm pretty sure that it's not that Wolffe doesn't like helping people that he was so much more grumpy than usual in Mercy Mission, I'm pretty sure it's because boy autistic As Fuck and got interrupted already on his way to another mission by two allistics asking him to do This Very Important Thing Right Now without warning. Yeah he's gonna do it, yeah he kinda expected it being in the military and at war and all, yeah he wants to help, but Really? Y'all just gonna throw out his whole routine like that? Respectfully, if I had managed to tough it out through all the trauma and human rights abuses and everything, that would still be the one thing that made me desert.

Autistic clones for life, just putting that out there.

(Follow-up thought that low- and medium-support needs autistic clones would largely fly right under the radar on Kamino bc there's so much structure and who says target practice can't be a stim? Actually that would make a lot of sense with like. something something moving meditation regulating emotions the only hobby they have time for why it's easy to get people to assume that they're only good for shooting. Also autism is genetic so if Jango Fett autistic and the Kaminoans first concern is them being like the template, then autism the norm among clones and it's the rare allistic ones that would be considered "defective".)

[mithrandirl]

🌍😎🏆

🌍 What is your dream AU?

so many! below decks style reality show au where somebody is going undercover as deckhands to arrest a rich yacht guest but they get tricked into doing a reality show on the ship. also fives and yoda having a podcast. but that's just fact to me at this point.

😎 Who is your BroTP?

so many! fives and yoda (see above). ahsoka and qui-gon. ahsoka and wolffe. chopper and morai. so many.....

🏆 What do you wish more authors in your fandom would write about?

au's! or any sort of different setting than the norm! i am tired of tbb settings. and it really has to take a lot for me to get into a fic that isn't saying something with its choice of setting or style.