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AS GOOD A REASON - CH. 4 | OBERYN MARTELL

Chapter Four: I Will Be Your Executioner

Summary: You, who has made it her life's work to get retribution on those who mistreated and harassed you when you were a child. The scars on your body are a physical reminder of the suffering you endured at the hands of abusers, and they also provide the fuel for your years-long quest for retribution.

Paring: Oberyn Martell x Fem!Reader

Warnings: 18+ MDNI DEAD DOVE DO NOT EAT, MINORS GO AWAY, GoT is full of serious and harmful topics, mentions of SA, Rape (not the reader), Murder, Violence, Gore, War, Poison, Scars, Burns, Scratching, Su!c!de, AU, Age–Gap Romance, Angst, FLUFF, Eventual SMUT, Swearing, PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Crying, Suggestive content, Flirting, Blood, War, Religion References, Nudity, Domestic Abuse, Incest, Prostitution, Weapons, Fire, Horror, Character Deaths, Rewrite Alternate Universe, Sex, Alcohol, Revenge, Panic Attacks, Anxiety Attack,

Word Count: 9k

A/N: OMFGGGGGG I’m actually writing non-stop. Wtf. Guys this part is heavily inspired by many quotes from the Glory. It’s so goooooddd! Go watch it. ALSO LMAO sorry for the chonky chapter. Hope you enjoy!

Side note: I’m dyslexic and English isn’t my first language! So I apologize in advance for the spelling and/or grammatical errors. As always, reblogs, comments, and likes are always appreciated. Thank you and happy reading!

Song: No Choir by Florence + The Machine

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THE WEDDING RECEPTION

KING'S LANDING GARDEN, RED KEEP — AFTERNOON

The once-vibrant garden has turned into a scene from a nightmare. Joffrey’s lifeless body lies in his mother’s lap, the blood trickling from his nose and mingling with the vomit caking his lips. Cersei’s scream cuts through the chaos like a blade, her finger trembling as it points directly at Tyrion.

"You did this! You did this!" she shrieks, her voice cracking with grief and rage.

Tyrion barely has time to react before three guards seize him from behind, their grip firm, dragging him back. The entire court is thrown into disarray, nobles scrambling, unsure where to look or what to say. The shock hangs in the air, heavy and suffocating.

Your eyes flick to Sansa as she watches, wide-eyed and frozen in place. Ser Dontos Hollard, the fool, sidles up to her, his face pale with urgency.

“We have to leave,” he whispers frantically, his hand tugging at her sleeve.

Sansa looks to you, her expression a mix of confusion and terror, searching for an answer. You meet her gaze and give the smallest, subtlest nod, speaking in the quietest voice that only she can hear.

"Run."

You keep your posture relaxed, every movement calculated, as though the chaos around you is nothing but a passing storm. Let it swirl, let them scream, none of it touches you.

Cersei’s piercing voice shatters the air again. “Take him! Take him!”

The guards drag Tyrion away through the crowd, his face a mask of resignation. You shift, sliding further to the edge of the gathering, your eyes tracking Sansa as she and Ser Dontos disappear, swallowed by the throng of horrified nobles. As Cersei’s head whips around, searching for a new target for her grief, her shrill voice rises again.

"Where is his wife? Where's Sansa?!"

Tywin's voice booms over the garden, commanding attention with the force of authority, “Find her. Bar the gates of the city. Seize every ship in the harbor.”

The tension mounts as Cersei, distraught and frenzied, clings to Tywin. “Where is she?!”

“No one leaves the capital!" Tywin's voice echoes like a decree from the gods themselves. "No one!”

The wheels are turning, but you remain steady, unmoved, watching everything unfold like a distant observer.

KING'S LANDING, RED KEEP — DUSK

The bells toll ominously across the city, signaling not just the king's death but the beginning of a lockdown. What had begun as a celebration of young love and power had spiraled into a suffocating horror—a wedding turned funeral. The streets were locked down, the gates barred, and whispers spread like wildfire among the servants. Every corner of the Red Keep hummed with dread.

You sat in the dim light of your chambers, fingers tracing over the pages of your journal. On the list of names you had scrawled, Joffrey’s stood out, now crossed out in thick ink. The weight of his demise did not lift your heart, but there was a cold satisfaction in seeing that line through his name.

A knock on your door broke the silence. You didn’t even look up, your voice calm, measured. “Enter.”

Serena stepped in, her movements quiet and careful as she shut the door behind her, turning the lock with a soft click before coming to sit beside you. Her eyes fell to your journal, to the page you’d been reading, and her gaze lingered on the crossed-out name.

Her voice was soft when she asked, “Did you…”

You didn’t hesitate. “It wasn’t me who slipped the poison.” Your tone was blunt, matter-of-fact. Serena was smart—she could piece together the rest on her own. She nodded slowly, absorbing the truth behind your words.

“It doesn’t matter,” she said softly. “I’d still like to thank you. For doing this.”

Her gratitude was real, but it didn’t touch you. Nothing did anymore. You turned to her, your expression as unreadable as stone.

"I didn’t do it for thanks," you said, your voice as cold as the air before a storm. “I did it because people like him—people like them—will only understand one thing from now on.” You paused, holding Serena’s gaze, unblinking. “They will suffer, just as we have.”

Serena nodded, her lips tightening into a thin line. She knew. She understood.

And so, your revenge continued. Joffrey’s name may have been crossed out, but there were others. And as you sat there, cold and detached, you knew this was only the beginning of a longer reckoning. The suffering had only just begun.

THE NEXT DAY

STREETS OF SILK, CHATAYA’S BROTHEL — DAY

The city pulsed with a nervous energy, the fallout of Joffrey’s death rippling through every alleyway, every corner of King’s Landing. It was rare for you to have a day free from the palace, but amidst the chaos, no one had cared when a few servants slipped away. The Red Keep had become a den of paranoia, each person trying to avoid the eye of suspicion. A perfect time to disappear—even if just for a while.

As you walked through the streets, your steps silent, deliberate, you overheard a conversation between two guards. Their voices were low, yet their words unmistakable. Tywin plans to confront Oberyn. The Hand of the King knew of Oberyn's frequent visits to Chataya’s brothel—it was no secret that the Dornish prince indulged himself openly. Tywin’s suspicions were spreading like wildfire, and you needed to be there to hear what he might uncover.

Pulling your cloak tight around you, you kept to the shadows, slipping between the narrow alleys that twisted like veins through the streets of silk. The map of the city was etched into your mind as clearly as the secrets you kept—memorized over years of service, of watching and waiting.

You reached the brothel just as the sun began to dip lower in the sky, casting long shadows across the cobblestones. Slipping through the back door, you moved with the practiced silence of someone who knew how to remain unseen. A shadow among shadows. The moans and laughter of the brothel’s patrons created a cover of noise, perfect for hiding in plain sight.

The scent of incense and sweat filled the air, thick and cloying, but you barely noticed. Your eyes were fixed ahead, scanning for any sign of Tywin or his men. You crept further into the brothel, slipping behind a large stone pillar that stood near one of the darker corners of the room. Hidden in the gloom, you were just another part of the architecture, unseen, unnoticed.

The dagger strapped to your thigh pressed reassuringly against your skin, a small comfort in the uncertainty of the moment. You had long since learned that in King’s Landing, secrets and steel were your best companions. One cut as deep as the other, and both had their uses. If anyone saw you, anyone grew suspicious—you would be ready.

You crouched lower behind the pillar, listening as Oberyn’s voice carried faintly from one of the rooms. His tone was as smooth and dangerous as ever, a man who never feared consequences, not even from Tywin Lannister. You stayed still, your heart steady but your mind sharp, waiting for the moment when Tywin would confront him.

You could feel it—the unraveling was only just beginning. The tension in the city would soon give way to something far darker, and you were determined to be ahead of it, to see everything before it was hidden away in shadows again.

As footsteps echoed down the hall, heavier, more deliberate, you pressed further into the shadows. Tywin. You could not afford to be seen, but you could not afford to miss this either. Information was your weapon. And today, you would sharpen it.

Just in time, you watched as three naked whores and Ellaria Sand stepped out of one of the rooms. Her dark, wavy hair cascaded down her bare shoulders as she laughed softly, her gaze briefly scanning the room before she and the others disappeared down the hall. The guards trailed after them, though one remained standing by the entrance. Close, but not too close.

The door to Oberyn’s room was slightly ajar.

You slipped inside with practiced precision, the heavy scent of incense clinging to the air. The room was bathed in the warm, golden light of the midday sun, filtering through the heavy curtains. Oberyn Martell was seated on the bed, shirtless and glistening with sweat, his bronzed skin catching the light as he stretched with the grace of a panther. The gods must have shown you some favor—he was still clothed from the waist down.

His gaze shifted lazily toward you, a faint smirk tugging at his lips as if your presence amused him. He knew you were there long before you entered.

“Would you like to sit?” he asked, his voice low, teasing. He gestured casually toward a chair in the corner, his eyes gleaming with mischief.

Tywin Lannister stood at the other end of the room, his expression as hard as stone, though his eyes betrayed a flicker of irritation. “No, thank you,” Tywin replied curtly, his voice cutting through the silence like a blade.

Oberyn’s movements were slow, deliberate, as he rose from the bed, his lean body practically dripping with confidence. He stepped toward a small cart by the window, where a tray of wine and goblets waited. “Some wine?” he offered again, pouring himself a generous amount, the dark liquid swirling in the cup.

Tywin, still standing near the door, remained unmoved. “No, thank you,” he repeated.

Oberyn, with a patterned towel draped over his shoulder, took a slow sip of the wine, his eyes never leaving Tywin’s. “I'm sorry about your grandson,” he said smoothly, though the sincerity in his tone was questionable.

Tywin’s lips twitched, barely containing his disdain. “Are you?” he asked, the question laced with accusation.

Oberyn shrugged, moving across the room like a predator sizing up his prey. “I don't believe a child is responsible for the sins of his father. Or his grandfather. An awful way to die.” His voice was casual, but his eyes—those dark, piercing eyes—were watching Tywin’s every move.

The tension in the room was recognizable, thick enough to choke on. You remained hidden in the shadows, every word falling like stones in a still pond, sending ripples of suspicion through the air.

“Which way is that?” Tywin asked, his voice sharp.

Oberyn tilted his head, a sly smile tugging at the corner of his lips. “Are you interrogating me, Lord Tywin?” he purred, settling onto a plush bed of pillows, lounging with the practiced grace of a man who feared nothing.

“Some believe the king choked,” Tywin mused, watching Oberyn closely.

“Some believe the sky is blue because we live inside the eye of a blue-eyed giant,” Oberyn replied, his tone mocking. He took another sip of wine before adding, “The king was poisoned.”

Tywin’s eyes narrowed, the faintest hint of suspicion creeping into his expression. “I hear you studied poisons at the Citadel.”

Oberyn’s smile widened, like a cat who had caught the scent of a mouse. “I did. This is why I know.”

Tywin’s voice dropped, edged with danger. “Your hatred for my family is rather well known. You arrive at the capital, an expert in poisoning, and days later my grandson dies of poisoning.”

Oberyn didn’t miss a beat. “Rather suspicious,” he agreed with a chuckle. “Why haven’t you thrown me in a dungeon?”

Tywin's gaze hardened. “You spoke with Tyrion in this very brothel on the day that you arrived. What did you discuss?”

“You think we conspired together?” Oberyn raised an eyebrow, amused.

“What did you discuss?”

Oberyn’s playful demeanor faltered, as he moved to stand, approaching Tywin, his voice dropping into something darker, colder. “The death of my sister.”

Tywin did not flinch, though his eyes gave away nothing. “For which you blame me.”

Oberyn leaned forward slightly, his voice like steel wrapped in silk. “She was raped and murdered by the Mountain. The Mountain follows your orders. Of course I blame you.”

The silence that followed was thick with unspoken threats. You remained perfectly still, your heart a steady drumbeat in your chest as you watched the two men circle each other, both poised for an attack that would never come.

Tywin, calm as ever, gave the faintest shrug. “Here I stand unarmed, unguarded. Should I be concerned?”

Oberyn smiled, a dangerous glint in his eyes. “You are unarmed and unguarded because you know me better than that. I am a man of reason. If I cut your throat today, I will be drawn and quartered tomorrow.”

“Men at war commit all kinds of crimes without their superiors' knowledge,” Tywin said, almost conversationally.

“So you deny involvement in Elia's murder?”

Tywin’s voice remained steady. “Categorically.”

Oberyn’s gaze sharpened, his smile fading into something colder. “I would like to speak with the Mountain.”

“I’m sure he would enjoy speaking with you,” Tywin said evenly.

Oberyn’s lips curled into a grim smile. “He might not enjoy it as much as he thinks he would.”

Tywin’s eyes flickered with a dangerous glint. “I could arrange for this meeting.”

Oberyn’s brow arched, intrigued. “But you want something in return.”

Tywin’s voice was calm, measured. “There will be a trial for my son. As custom dictates, three judges will render a verdict. I will preside. Mace Tyrell will serve as the second judge. I would like you to be the third.”

Oberyn’s amusement returned, but his tone remained cautious. “Why?”

“Not long ago, the Tyrells sided with Renly Baratheon. Declared themselves enemies of the throne. Now they are our strongest allies.”

Oberyn shrugged, taking another sip of his wine. “Well, you made the Tyrell girl a queen. Asking me to judge at your son's trial isn't quite as tempting.”

Tywin stepped forward, his voice dropping low. “I will also invite you to sit on the small council to serve as one of the new king's principal advisors.”

Oberyn studied Tywin, his eyes narrowing slightly. “I never realized you had such respect for Dorne, Lord Tywin.”

“We are not the Seven Kingdoms until Dorne returns to the fold,” Tywin replied, his voice cold, calculated. “The king is dead. The Greyjoys are in open rebellion. A wildling army marches on the Wall. And in the East, a Targaryen girl has three dragons. Before long, she will turn her eyes to Westeros. Only the Dornish managed to resist Aegon Targaryen and his dragons.”

Oberyn’s smile returned, slow and sharp. “You're saying you need us? That must be hard for you to admit.”

Tywin’s expression didn’t change. “We need each other. You help me serve justice to the king's assassins, and I will help you serve justice to Elia's.”

The room seemed to hold its breath as Oberyn fell silent, his gaze turning inward, distant, as if he were calculating a hundred possibilities all at once. The tension lingered, thick and unspoken, between him and the absent Tywin. The delicate balance of power that had just played out was clear—two predators circling one another, masking threats with diplomacy.

You pressed yourself deeper into the shadows, watching Oberyn with a sharp, practiced gaze. His expression remained contemplative, still lost in the aftermath of his exchange with Tywin. Outside the room, the echo of Tywin’s footsteps faded into the distance, and the door clicked shut with finality, leaving behind an uneasy stillness that hung thick in the air.

But you had lingered too long. In a silent breath, you pulled back into the shadows, slipping toward the door like a shadow yourself. You moved swiftly, soundless, as you had been trained—disappearing without a trace. The world outside was teeming with noise and life, but none of it noticed your departure. You melted into the alleyways, your cloak drawn close, your steps swift and measured as you darted through the maze of streets that threaded King’s Landing.

The market was alive with its usual chaos, the scent of spices mingling with the salt of the sea, merchants shouting over one another, selling everything from silks to stale bread. You wove through the crowds, your face hidden beneath the hood of your cloak, eyes scanning your surroundings. You had always known how to vanish in plain sight.

But then, the sound hit you.

A sharp sizzle, the searing of meat against hot metal. Your steps faltered as the scent of charred pork filled the air, thick and overwhelming, clinging to your skin like smoke. For a moment, the world around you seemed to blur—the market, the people, the shouts—it all dimmed. Your breath caught in your throat, your chest tightening as the memories surged, unbidden, unstoppable.

Flames licking at your skin, the scent of burning flesh, the sound of your own screams echoing in the back of your mind. The fire that had marked you, that had seared itself into your memory, now clawed its way to the surface.

Your hands trembled as you stumbled into a corner of the street, your back pressed hard against the cool stone of a wall. The sounds of the market seemed distant now, drowned out by the roar of the fire in your mind. The panic clawed at your chest, squeezing tighter and tighter until it felt like you couldn’t breathe.

You gasped, desperate for air, the weight of your cloak suddenly too heavy, the noise of the market too loud. The edges of your vision blurred, and the ground beneath you felt like it was spinning. The world seemed to close in on you, suffocating, the past and present melding into one.

Burning.

You clenched your fists, nails digging into your palms in an attempt to ground yourself, to remind yourself that you were no longer there. But the searing sound, the scent—it was too much. The memories flooded you, pulling you under. You pressed your back harder into the wall, trying to fight your way out of the suffocating panic, trying to escape the fire that only existed in your mind.

But it felt so real.

Your breaths came in short, shallow gasps, and your vision swam. You had to get out. Away from the market, away from the noise, away from the memory that gripped you like a vice. You pushed yourself off the wall, your legs shaky but determined, and forced yourself back into the crowd, pulling your cloak tighter around you.

With every step, you fought to steady your breathing, to clear the haze from your mind. The streets blurred around you as you moved, each footfall feeling heavier than the last, but you pressed on. Away from the market. Away from the sound.

Away from the fire.

KING'S LANDING, RED KEEP — AFTERNOON

By the time you returned to the castle, fatigue weighed heavily on your limbs. The maze of tunnels under the Red Keep stretched out before you like a winding serpent, familiar yet suffocating. Each step felt heavier than the last, your breath shallow, as the cool stone walls seemed to press closer.

As you rounded a corner, your thoughts interrupted by hurried footsteps, you almost collided with someone—Podrick Payne. His wide-eyed expression immediately softened when he realized it was you.

“Oh, my apologies,” Podrick stammered, stepping back in his usual bashful manner.

You shook your head, waving off the apology. "No, it was my fault. I wasn’t looking where I was going."

He hesitated, shifting his weight from one foot to the other. "Oh well…"

There was something about his awkwardness, a sincerity in the way he held himself. Podrick was kind, genuine—a rarity in King's Landing. You had a peculiar way of prying information from him without much effort. It wasn’t something you set out to do, but it was almost as though the right questions spilled from your lips, and he couldn’t help but answer.

You tilted your head slightly, eyes narrowing as you noticed the tension in his shoulders. "Are you heading somewhere urgent?"

Podrick blinked in surprise, glancing at the wineskin he carried. “Yes, I’m on my way to see Lord Tyrion in the cells.”

Your gaze dropped to the wineskin, lips curving into a faint smirk. "You’re bringing him wine?"

He nodded, looking somewhat guilty, as though he’d been caught red-handed.

"The guards will take it from you, you know that, right?"

Podrick’s expression flickered with brief defeat, but he nodded again. The innocence in his eyes spoke volumes, but you weren’t fooled. Deep down, you knew he was smuggling more than just wine. You sighed, rubbing your temples as the exhaustion from the day wore at your patience.

"They've chosen the judges for his trial," you added, your voice soft but deliberate.

Podrick glanced around as if someone might overhear, then leaned in slightly. “I heard. Lord Tywin, Mace Tyrell, and Prince Oberyn of Dorne."

"Word travels fast," you murmured, more to yourself than to him. Your eyes drifted over his face, reading the tension etched into his features. His frown deepened, and you couldn’t help but ask, “What’s wrong? You’re frowning.”

Podrick’s sigh was almost inaudible, but in the quiet of the dimly lit tunnel, it seemed to echo. He lowered his voice as if confessing a secret. "There’s something else. A man—someone I didn’t know—came to me. He asked if I’d testify against Lord Tyrion. Said I’d be named Ser Podrick Payne if I told the judges Tyrion bought a poison called the Strangler.”

Your stomach twisted at the mention of the poison, but your expression remained impassive. You frowned, though, as the weight of his words sank in. Podrick, in his innocence, stood at the crossroads of something much darker than he fully understood.

"You…" You took a slow, deep breath, steadying your tone. "Lord Tyrion has been kind to you."

He met your gaze, his eyes filled with uncertainty. "He has."

There was a heavy silence between you, the kind that lingered just long enough to feel uncomfortable. The weight of your secrets hung in the air, unspoken, but Podrick wasn’t foolish. He knew you were holding back, but he never pressed.

"Do you know what happened?" he asked softly, as though afraid of the answer. His voice was tentative, laced with the hope that you might offer him clarity. "Who did it?"

You blinked, your gaze distant, the apathy you had so carefully cultivated slipping back into place. His question lingered, but you gave him no answer—just a soft pat on his shoulder, a rare gesture of kindness in a world that had none to spare.

"You better be careful, Podrick," you said, your voice low, carrying a quiet weight. "You’re one of the rare ones out there who are truly good. Take care of yourself."

His lips parted as if to say something more, but you had already turned away, disappearing into the shadows of the castle, leaving him standing there beneath the flickering torchlight.

KING’S LANDING, QUAY OF THE PORT BY THE SEA OF THE RED KEEP — AFTERNOON

The salty breeze whipped across the sea, crashing waves against jagged rocks below as you crouched beneath the cliffsides. Hidden from sight, you watched with keen eyes as Jaime Lannister and Bronn sparred near the water's edge, the sound of clashing steel ringing in the air.

Jaime’s face was flushed, his breath labored, but his movements were sharper than before. He spun his sword with renewed vigor, pressing the attack against Bronn. But the sellsword was as sharp as ever, his parries quick, his footwork steady. They deadlocked, Jaime’s golden hand clashing with Bronn’s grip. With a wicked grin, Bronn swatted Jaime across the face, sending him sprawling onto the ground with an unceremonious thud.

Jaime let out a grunt, pushing himself up from the dirt. “What the hell was that?” he spat, wiping the dust from his tunic.

Bronn tossed Jaime’s golden hand back to him with a smirk. “That was me knocking your ass to the dirt with your own hand."

Jaime caught it, shaking his head. “You’re a rare talent. When you’re fighting cripples, anyway.”

“You learned to fight like a good little boy," Bronn quipped, his grin widening. "I’ll bet that thrust through the Mad King’s back was pretty as a picture. You want to fight pretty, or you want to win?”

Jaime’s jaw clenched. “You talk to my brother this way?”

“All the time. He got used to it.”

They sat together on a low stone wall, the tension easing between them. Jaime took a swig from a wineskin before handing it to Bronn.

“Do you think he did it?” Jaime asked, his voice low, hesitant.

Bronn shook his head. “No. Oh, he hated the little twat, sure. But who didn’t? Poison’s not his style. Or murder, for that matter. You want to know for sure, why don’t you ask him?”

Jaime remained silent, his gaze distant.

“You haven’t been to see him yet, have you?” Bronn probed, his tone carrying an edge of judgment.

Jaime stood abruptly, tossing the wineskin back to Bronn. “We’re done for today.”

As Jaime walked away, Bronn called out, “Your brother ever tell you how I came into his service?”

Jaime paused, his back still turned. “You stood for him in his trial by combat at the Eyrie.”

“Aye,” Bronn replied, his voice steady. “But only when Lady Arryn demanded the trial take place that day. You were his first choice. He named you for his champion because he knew you’d ride day and night to fight for him. You gonna fight for him now?”

Jaime’s silence lingered, the weight of Bronn’s words hanging in the air as he disappeared into the distance.

Once Jaime was gone, Bronn stood alone, shaking his head. That’s when you emerged from your hiding spot, the faint sound of your boots scraping against the stone catching his attention. He turned, spotting you walking towards him, your loose long-sleeve tunic billowing slightly in the wind, trousers and boots practical for the sparring you had in mind. The sword sheathed at your side glinted in the afternoon light, a far cry from the ladylike appearance most would expect.

You let out a low whistle, drawing a chuckle from Bronn as you approached. “You really handed it to him, huh?” you remarked, eyes twinkling with amusement.

“Who knew today would be the day you make a joke?” Bronn quipped, his smirk never far from his lips.

You huffed, crossing your arms. “Might as well get a laugh in once in a while.”

Bronn gave you a quick once-over, his eyes sharp as always. “You here to practice?”

In response, you tossed a small pouch of gold coins at him, which he caught with a practiced ease. “It’s been a while. Was wondering if you were simply busy or if you’d run off.”

You shrugged, the weight of the past few days pressing on your shoulders. “Well, it hasn’t been quiet at the Red Keep.”

“Aye,” Bronn said with a knowing look, his expression softening for just a moment. Then, with his usual swagger, he added, “Well, let’s see if that sword of yours still works.”

The two of you squared off, the tension of the moment melting into the familiar rhythm of training. Bronn was a formidable opponent—quick, sharp, and never one to play by the rules. He tested you immediately, launching a fast strike aimed at your side. You parried it easily, the weight of your sword light in your hands.

"You've gotten faster," Bronn noted, his tone almost begrudging as he stepped back to assess you, his sharp eyes taking in every movement, every subtle shift of your stance.

You shrugged, gripping your sword a little tighter, the weight of his words sinking in deeper than he realized. Faster—it wasn’t just speed you needed. Strength. Precision. Ruthlessness. All of it would be necessary if you were going to do what needed to be done. Your thoughts flickered briefly to him, to the Mountain, and the moment you had been turning over in your mind, rehearsing endlessly in the quiet of your own head.

One well-placed strike—that’s all it would take. You’d studied his movements, watched how he fought. Brutal. Unforgiving. He crushed his opponents like insects beneath his feet, but there was always a weakness. There had to be. You just had to find it, and when you did, the Mountain would fall.

But you didn’t say that out loud.

Instead, you offered Bronn a casual shrug, masking the storm of thoughts beneath your calm expression. “Learned a few tricks while I was busy,” you replied with a half-smile, keeping your voice light.

Bronn smirked, though his eyes still lingered on you as if trying to peel back the layers of your thoughts. "Busy, huh? Hope those tricks keep you alive long enough to show me more."

He didn’t press, and you were grateful for it. There was no need to tell him, not yet. The time would come soon enough, and when it did, you'd be ready.

A FEW DAYS LATER

KING'S LANDING, THE THRONE ROOM — DAY

You stand off to the side, shrouded in the shadows of the grand pillars, your eyes flickering over the scene before you like a predator studying its prey. The High Septon stands at the heart of it all, his voice booming as he leads the coronation of Tommen Baratheon. The crowd has gathered, a sea of nobles dressed in their finest silks, feigning respect and devotion. Your gaze drifts, settling momentarily on Ser Jaime Lannister, who patrols near the back, his golden hand gleaming in the soft light.

"May the Warrior grant him courage and protect him in these perilous times," the High Septon intoned, his voice heavy with ceremony. "May the Smith grant him strength that he might bear this heavy burden. And may the Crone, she that knows the fate of all men, show him the path he must walk and guide him through the dark places that lie ahead."

Tommen’s face, still soft with boyish innocence, betrays the weight of the moment. You can see it in his eyes—the bewilderment, the fear hidden behind a facade of calm. He’s a puppet, and the strings are woven through the hands of those more powerful. But he’s not the one you’re watching.

The High Septon finishes, his hands raised toward the heavens. "In the light of the Seven, I now proclaim Tommen of the House Baratheon, First of His Name. King of the Andals and the First Men and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may he reign!"

"Long may he reign!" the crowd echoes in unison, their voices a rehearsed chorus.

Your eyes narrow as Tommen bows, exchanging a fleeting glance with Margaery Tyrell. The hint of a smile plays on her lips, barely noticeable unless you knew what to look for. It’s the look of a woman who knows exactly what she wants—and how to get it. Cersei sees it too, her expression tightening, though she maintains her grace.

You smirk to yourself. The plot never stops, not for a moment.

The grand hall is quieter now, though the air still buzzes with soft chatter. Tommen sits awkwardly on the Iron Throne, his small frame swallowed by its looming presence. Tywin Lannister stands beside him, commanding the room with nothing but his cold, stern silence. The line of courtiers shuffles forward, each taking their turn to bow and offer hollow pleasantries.

"Your Grace," Grand Maester Pycelle rasps, his aged voice grating against your ears.

"Your Grace," Varys follows, his tone smooth, unreadable.

Tommen exchanges nods and small smiles, barely keeping up the appearance of a ruler. Margaery lingers nearby, her gaze soft but calculating. It’s Cersei’s eyes that catch yours, though, burning with possessiveness and suspicion as they land on Margaery.

Your fingers twitch at your side, the weight of your dagger pressing against your thigh through the fabric of your cloak. There’s no need for it now, but the comfort of steel is a constant reminder of why you’re here—watching, waiting, collecting secrets like coins.

The crowd parts as Cersei approaches Margaery, offering smiles to the onlookers as she moves through the room with the grace of a lioness on the hunt. You observe it all, taking in the flickers of power, the undercurrents that ripple beneath the surface of every interaction.

You sigh, stepping away from the scene and slipping back into the shadows. There’s nothing more to see here. The coronation is just another piece in the larger puzzle, and the trial—the real battle—is yet to come. Your secrets can wait, for now.

KING'S LANDING, THE GARDEN — DAY

The day was warm, the sun casting a golden glow over the lush greenery of the royal gardens. The scent of blooming flowers mingled with the salty air from the sea, but none of that registered as you went about your tasks. Servant duties, tedious and endless, consumed most of your time. Today, it was carrying supplies from the kitchen to the gardens—bundles of herbs, fresh fruits, a few linens. You balanced them carefully in your arms, eyes scanning for a spot to drop them off before you moved to the next errand.

As you passed through the garden's winding paths, the soft murmur of voices caught your attention. You stilled, instinctively pressing yourself into the shade of a tall shrub, out of sight. The voices were familiar—Cersei Lannister and Oberyn Martell. The temptation to eavesdrop, to gather just a bit more information for yourself, was too great to resist.

You shifted slightly, your heart thudding in your chest, trying not to rustle the bushes as you angled your body closer. From where you stood, you had a clear view of Oberyn sitting on a stone bench, writing on a scroll. He paused as Cersei approached, her guards flanking her.

"Your Grace," Oberyn greeted her, his voice low and polite as he stood.

Cersei’s cold smile barely reached her eyes. "Prince Oberyn. Writing letters?"

"A poem, actually," Oberyn replied, his tone light, yet unreadable.

Cersei’s eyebrow raised slightly, more curious than amused. "May I show you the gardens?"

Oberyn glanced down at the scroll he had been working on before standing fully to his feet. "I couldn’t very well refuse a royal escort."

"No, you couldn’t," Cersei said, a slight edge in her voice. You could almost see the power shift between them as they started walking side by side through the winding paths of the garden, their steps measured, calculated.

You trailed discreetly behind them, clutching your bundle tightly, ears straining to catch every word.

"I didn’t realize you were a poet," Cersei remarked, her voice laced with feigned curiosity.

Oberyn chuckled. "Not a very good one."

"For your paramour?"

"For one of my daughters," Oberyn corrected, his voice softening at the mention of his children.

Cersei’s eyes flicked toward him. "You have several, don’t you?"

"Eight," he said, a touch of pride in his voice.

"Eight? Eight daughters?" Cersei repeated, incredulous.

Oberyn nodded. "The fifth is difficult. I named her after my sister, Elia."

At the mention of Elia’s name, your heart clenched. You had always known the depth of his loss, but hearing it aloud, even in passing, reminded you of the storm that brewed constantly beneath Oberyn’s surface.

"Beautiful name," Cersei mused.

"Yes," Oberyn agreed, though his tone darkened. "But I can’t say it without turning sad. And after I turn sad, I grow angry."

"Perhaps that’s why she’s difficult," Cersei remarked, her tone dripping with cynical wisdom. "The gods love their stupid jokes, don’t they?"

Oberyn's gaze narrowed slightly, intrigued. "Which joke is that?"

Cersei’s smile was sharp, almost mocking. "You’re a prince of Dorne. A legendary fighter. A brilliant man feared throughout Westeros. But you could not save your sister. I’m a Lannister. Queen for nineteen years. Daughter of the most powerful man alive. But I could not save my son. What good is power if you cannot protect the ones you love?"

Her words struck like venom, her bitterness palpable. You watched Oberyn’s face shift, his jaw tightening as the memories of his sister undoubtedly flashed behind his eyes.

"We can avenge them," he said after a pause, his voice resolute, cutting through the air like a blade.

Cersei met his gaze, her lips curling slightly. "Yes, we can avenge them."

Oberyn tilted his head, watching her intently. "You really believe Tyrion murdered your son?"

Without hesitation, Cersei replied, "I know he did."

Oberyn’s expression remained calm, though you could sense his skepticism. "We will have a trial, and we will learn the truth."

"We’ll have a trial, anyway," Cersei muttered, her voice tight with impatience. "I haven’t seen my daughter in over a year."

Oberyn’s face softened slightly. "The last time I saw her, she was swimming with two of my girls in the Water Gardens. Laughing in the sun."

Cersei’s eyes briefly glistened with unshed tears. "I want to believe that. I want to believe she’s happy."

Oberyn’s tone was gentle now, sincere. "You have my word. We don’t hurt little girls in Dorne."

Cersei’s voice was a mere whisper, filled with more sadness than she would ever admit aloud. "Everywhere in the world, they hurt little girls. Would you bring her a gift for me? I wasn’t there for her name day. I don’t know when I’ll see her again."

Oberyn’s gaze softened as he nodded. "Anything at all."

Cersei pointed toward the bay, her eyes lingering on a ship. "The best shipwrights in King’s Landing have been working on it for months. Myrcella loves the open water."

Oberyn’s lips curled into a small, understanding smile. "I will have it sailed down to Sunspear for her."

Cersei turned to face him fully, her expression momentarily vulnerable. "Please tell her... her mother misses her very much."

She left then, her guards following behind as her regal figure disappeared from the garden. Oberyn stood still, watching her go with an unreadable expression.

In the silence that followed, Oberyn’s voice cut through the air, calm and composed. "You can show yourself now."

Your breath hitched, but you stepped out from behind the pillar, clutching the supplies you had been carrying, your heartbeat still racing from all you had overheard.

Oberyn's dark eyes, gleaming with that unspoken intensity, never left yours. The weight of his gaze made the space between you feel smaller, heavier, as though every unspoken word lingered in the air. He took a slow step toward you, his expression caught somewhere between amusement and curiosity.

"I still don’t know your name," he said, the faintest smirk tugging at his lips, though his tone remained casual, as if this was just another conversation, nothing more than passing the time.

Your heart skipped a beat, and you swallowed, straightening slightly. "It’s..." You hesitated for a second, then finally offered, your name.

Oberyn hummed in acknowledgment, his smirk widening just a little, as though your name now held a secret weight between the two of you. He moved closer, studying your face carefully. He repeated your name, tasting the name on his tongue like it was something to be savored.

A silence hung between you for a moment, but Oberyn had a way of piercing through it with his words. His eyes narrowed slightly, his head tilting just enough to catch your gaze again. "Tell me," he began, his voice soft but laced with a quiet danger, "did you poison the king?"

Your chest tightened at the question, though you knew it was coming. You didn't flinch, your heart steady despite the accusation hanging in the air. Meeting his gaze, you shook your head firmly, your voice calm but resolute. "No. I didn’t."

Oberyn’s intense gaze lingered on you, as if he was peeling away the layers of who you were, searching for the truth hidden beneath your calm exterior. His dark eyes burned with quiet judgment, tempered by curiosity. The corner of his mouth tugged upward, barely perceptible, when he let out a soft hum, the tension in his posture easing. "Good," he murmured, the single word carrying weight, as though it was meant to confirm something greater. Yet, behind his eyes, the storm never ceased, always swirling, always waiting.

You inhaled deeply, the air between you thick with unspoken things. For a long moment, you said nothing, your mind racing through the years, the faces, and the memories long buried under the weight of time and pain. The ocean waves crashed in the distance, steady and unyielding, much like the man before you. The ships bobbed on the horizon, their sails catching the wind as if they were fleeing toward freedom, away from all that was this city—this place of blood and betrayal.

You turned your gaze toward the sea, your voice low as you spoke, almost as if the memory itself had pulled the words from your lips. "You were right, your grace. I knew her… your sister, Princess Elia."

Oberyn’s expression flickered, a subtle shift from curiosity to something more personal, more vulnerable, as he stepped closer to you. His presence was quiet but commanding, the warmth of him beside you drawing your attention. You didn’t look at him; instead, you watched the ships, the waves crashing against the cliffs in the distance.

"It was a long time ago," you continued, your voice soft, filled with a kind of sorrow that time couldn’t quite erase. "I wasn’t a good person then… I don’t know if I am now." Your words hung in the air, fragile but true.

The wind whipped through your hair as the memory surged forth, pulling you back to that day—the day you first met her. You had been standing on the cliffs near Sunspear, staring down at the waters below. The waves had seemed so inviting, so final. You’d been ready to let go, ready to fall and end the pain that had gripped you for far too long.

But then, you heard a cry.

Princess Elia had been in the water, struggling against the currents, her graceful arms failing to keep her afloat. It was instinct, something primal within you that made you dive into the water, though you had been moments away from letting it take you. You swam with a strength you didn’t know you possessed, reaching her, pulling her to the shore. You’d saved her, though you had been prepared to die.

When you reached the sand, both of you gasping for breath, Elia had looked at you, her deep brown eyes searching yours, knowing, seeing far too much. "You were going to jump, weren’t you?" she had asked, her voice soft but piercing.

You had only nodded, the pressure of your decision still clinging to you like the seaweed wrapped around your legs.

Elia had smiled then, a gentle, sorrowful thing. "Thank you for saving me… even when you couldn’t save yourself." Her words had haunted you ever since.

The memory faded, and you were back in the present, the ocean still stretching before you, endless and indifferent. Oberyn stood beside you, silent for a long moment, absorbing your words. His expression remained unreadable, but his eyes flickered with understanding, with a shared pain.

"You were the one," he said quietly, almost as if speaking to himself. "The servant girl… the one who survived." His voice was careful, probing, seeking confirmation of a story long buried under the rubble of war and tragedy.

Your face remained void of emotion as you turned to meet his gaze, your eyes hollowed by the weight of the years and the scars you carried. "I haven't forgotten even a day," you replied, your voice eerily calm, devoid of the turmoil you felt. "Some hatred resembles longing. It's impossible to get rid of."

Oberyn's gaze lingered on you, his expression softening, though the tempest within him still raged. His eyes, dark and intense, mirrored the turmoil that churned beneath your own surface. “I’ve also hit rock bottom before,” he said, his voice carrying a rare gentleness. “So, I understand the weight of your anger.”

His words hung in the salt-tinged air, a bridge between the two of you—both bound by memories of a woman long gone, and a shared desire for something that felt like justice but tasted more like vengeance. The sea continued its relentless assault on the cliffs, indifferent to your pain, your histories, and the scars neither of you could erase. The world moved on, as uncaring as ever, while you stood still in the face of it.

Oberyn turned slightly toward you, his expression more searching now. "Is that why you came to King's Landing?" His question was quiet, but the weight of it settled between you like a stone dropped into a deep well.

Without turning to face him, you let out a bitter laugh, the sound lost in the crash of waves. "Isn’t that why you’re here too?"

The words hit him with a force that made him pause, a flash of something unreadable passing across his face. Oberyn was silent for a moment, studying you as if trying to gauge the depth of your resolve. He shifted, his usual confidence tempered by something more cautious now. "You know what revenge does to people," he said softly, his tone laced with concern. "I’ve seen it. I’ve lived it. It devours you, bit by bit, until there’s nothing left but the anger. It’s… not something someone like you should carry."

You scoffed, the words cutting through you, sharper than any blade. "Someone like me?" you echoed, turning to face him fully for the first time since the conversation began. Your eyes locked onto his, challenging, as if daring him to explain what he meant.

Oberyn’s brow furrowed, a rare crease in the otherwise unshakeable mask he wore. "You carry enough," he said, voice low but firm. "You shouldn’t be the one to deal with this. It will change you."

His worry was unexpected, disarming even, and for a moment, you saw the weight of his own guilt reflected in his gaze—the burdens he carried, the losses he had never fully avenged. But there was also a flicker of something protective, something he wasn’t ready to admit to.

You turned back toward the sea, your heart heavy with a mix of rage and sorrow. The waves below crashed louder now, their rhythm matching the pounding in your chest. "I’ve already been changed," you whispered, your voice barely audible above the roar of the ocean. "There’s nothing left to take."

Oberyn stepped closer, his presence warm beside you, though the space between you felt vast. “There’s always something left,” he murmured, his voice softer now, the edge of worry still lacing his words. “You just don’t see it yet.”

The silence between you stretched long, as the sea kept its pace, unbothered by the weight of two broken souls standing on the cliffs above it. Neither of you spoke again for some time, each lost in your own thoughts, but bound by an understanding neither of you had expected.

Both here for vengeance. Both already paying its price.

KING'S LANDING, RED KEEP — EVENING

The evening air clung heavily to the Red Keep, filled with the scent of the sea and the distant hum of King’s Landing. After leaving Oberyn by the cliffs, the weight of exhaustion settled into your bones, dragging you through the motions of the day. Each task completed, each conversation had, felt like a necessary distraction—an anchor to keep you from drowning in your thoughts. Yet, none of it could quiet the storm within.

Once your duties were done, you retreated to your small chambers, the flickering light of a lone candle casting shadows against the stone walls. You sat at the edge of your bed, a leather journal resting on your lap. The worn pages were a map of your thoughts, your plans, your vengeance. You traced a finger over the spine, staring down at the leather-bound book that held all the pieces of your story. It was here, in the quiet of the night, that you could feel the weight of everything you’d worked for, everything you had planned.

Your revenge.

You glanced at the drawer where your dagger rested, a constant companion in this journey, but tonight you would leave it behind. Tonight was not for the blade, but for something else entirely. Whispered words from the servants confirmed that Ellaria was out in the brothels, and that knowledge settled something within you.

You changed swiftly into a nightgown, the soft fabric brushing against your skin, and draped a dark cloak over your shoulders. It shrouded your form as you slipped through the halls of the Red Keep, every step measured, your path taking you toward the guest quarters. Toward Oberyn.

MAIDENVAULT, GUEST CHAMBERS

KING’S LANDING, RED KEEP - EVENING

The corridors were dimly lit, and you moved like a shadow, slipping unnoticed through the Keep. The cold stone beneath your feet did little to deter you as you made your way to the door of Oberyn’s chambers.

You hesitated for only a moment, then pushed the door open, slipping inside before the guards could take notice. The room was dim, lit only by the pale silver of the moonlight filtering in through the window. Oberyn stood near the bed, surprised by your sudden presence, his dark eyes meeting yours as you stepped into the moonlight, the cloak falling away from your shoulders.

He closed the door behind him, his gaze flickering over you, curiosity and something else stirring in his eyes. "I didn’t expect company tonight," he said, his voice low, a touch playful as he stepped closer. "Is this what I think it is?"

You didn’t respond immediately. Instead, your fingers moved to the ties of your nightgown, pulling them loose until the fabric slipped down from your shoulders, falling in a whispering heap at your feet. Oberyn’s smirk faltered as the moonlight revealed the truth—scarred, burned, and marred flesh stretching across your body like a grotesque map of past pain.

"It felt like a white night, and sometimes it felt like a polar night, too."

His amusement vanished, replaced by horror, by understanding. "Gods…" he breathed, his voice barely above a whisper as he took in the damage that covered every inch of you.

“Ugly, right?” Your voice was toneless, cold. “My scars.”

Oberyn’s eyes darkened, but not with revulsion—only fury, a quiet, simmering rage that burned behind his otherwise calm exterior. He didn’t need to ask who had done this to you. The answer was written in the jagged lines that crisscrossed your skin. He knew. He had always known the darkness that resided in this city, but seeing it on you, it seemed to strike deeper.

“They’re not ugly,” he said softly, stepping closer, his eyes never leaving yours. “They’re injuries.” His voice was a mixture of defiance and sympathy, the edges rough with something dangerous.

You shook your head, meeting his gaze with a stark intensity. "I’m not looking for a prince," you said, your voice steady and without emotion. “What I need is not a prince, but a headsman who will join me in the sword dance.”

Oberyn’s jaw tightened, the weight of your words sinking into the space between you. For a moment, you could see the conflict in his eyes—the warrior who knew the toll of vengeance, and the lover who wished to shield you from it. But as he looked at the scars on your body, the decision seemed to solidify within him.

"Once your revenge is over, your world will also be in ruins," he said, his voice still holding the trace of concern, but it was quickly fading.

"I’m already in complete ruins with no dignity left," you replied, your voice like iron. "So, go back. I’d like to stay faithful to my rage and vice"

Oberyn exhaled slowly, the storm within him finally breaking. His fingers flexed at his side, as if already reaching for the hilt of his sword. “I’ll do it,” he said, stepping even closer until his presence was all-encompassing. “I’ll be your headsman. I’ll join the sword dance.”

Your heart pounded in your chest as his words sunk in, the finality of them sending a thrill through you. “I’ll do whatever you say,” he continued, his voice like a vow. “As if it’s a royal command. Anything at all.”

He reached out, his fingers brushing lightly against your arm, his touch surprisingly gentle despite the violence in his words. “I’ll show you a wild sword dance,” he promised, his eyes locked on yours, filled with a deadly sort of resolve.

In that moment, you both knew there was no turning back. The sword dance would begin, and neither of you would emerge the same.

TAGLIST:

@christinamadsen @greenwitchfromthewoods

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iamafanofcartoons · 2 years

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We need to address how media, and media critics, portray female characters poorly. What can be done about it? What are examples of media works that portray complex female characters well? What are writing tips for people trying to write complex female characters? Why do media critics hate on women?

Its just something I noticed.

Male writers drop the ball with female characters all the time. They'll give the men all the good lines but women get weak roles and no sense of humor. When we complain they then make a female character who has too many boyfriends and too much ego and too much power but no resourcefulness, or she's super powerful but still needs a man to save her, and of course they make her complain about everything and fight with everyone who helps her. I could go on and on.

A lot of people are incapable of viewing female characters as anything other than an innocent saint or a portrait of pure evil. Arguably the best characters are morally ambiguous ones who live in the gray area between good and evil, but women are much less often afforded that distinction than their male counterparts.

I'm been having a huge problem connecting to media. The only women around are very young or very old and their main defining feature is usually motherhood. If a woman my age exists who isn't a mom she's usually either obsessed with men or desperate to have a baby (or will be once the right dude comes along).

Fanfiction has great female characters , but you keep running into people who will only write a complex woman who's tied to a male main character.

Michael Burnham from Star Trek: Discovery . POC Female Protagonist. You probably have heard or seen a lot of hatred against.

Korra from The Legend Of Korra. Sequel Series to ATLA. POC Female Protagonist. Despite losing fights and suffering extreme trauma and making mistakes, critics passionately bash the show, calling her a Mary-Sue, and accusing the show of being Protagonist-Centered Morality.

A lot of the time if there is a military high ranking female character or just female leader that is masculine or butch she will be the villain to be defeated by the traditionally feminine or at least more feminine heroine/love interest of the hero. I hate this because it basically implies that a woman can only be good if she’s conventionally attractive or a love interest. It’s saying being butch is bad/evil.

Even movies trying to be feminist, like “Contact” which I had to watch for homework? With Jodie Foster from the 1990s told the brilliant, focused woman scientist to not be so “confrontational” (as two male characters stole credit for her work right after they stole her funding) and to be happy with “small moves.” They continued to pat her on the head and tell her to be quiet through the whole movie. The one time she even spoke to another woman was to ask where she could find a really pretty dress. This was supposed to show growth in her character arc.

If I recall correctly, one of the playable characters in the next release of the grand theft auto series is gonna be a women. People online were flipping out over this saying they are being too "woke", among other things. Its funny to me because there has been 5 gta games with only male protagonists, and now there's 1 female in it and suddenly its a problem. Its like these people think there are only 2 genders in games, male and woke.

Heck, people love basic trope laden protagonists..... until they are women.

People love unreasonably over powered characters that are loved or feared in equal measure by the entire cast..... until its a woman.

Then all of a sudden, she's a Mary-Sue and the show/game/book is "Protagonist-Centered Morality"

Some characters who are torn apart for their initial naïveté like Sansa Stark or Usagi Tsukino (Sailor Moon) are immediately written off as stupid girl characters. Never mind that one becomes a political powerhouse and the other routinely saves the world. People just write their characters off as too “girly” or “annoying” before they even have the chance to redeem themselves in their stories.

Feels like at it's core, people don't like women trying to build self confidence and play out power fantasies. The only difference with the original Mary Sue was that she was imagining being liked by everyone, which was every woman's dream back then and to a certain extent, now. The power was being well liked, and that made her annoyingly boring because there was no struggle for her. Men think struggle is needed, even in fantasies and dreams, but it isn't.

The term Mary-Sue gained a new popularity by shaming female characters (such as Rey, Galadriel, Captain Marvel,…). I am not saying the term is not used towards male characters as well, but it is more rare, and it is rarely as violent as when it is used to characterize a female character.

More importantly it is used against female characters unevenly compared to male characters, its accepted as a genre trope for a male character to be extremely capable or to acrue experience and ability rapidly throughout the narrative. But when it's a woman suddenly "realism" must apply, a real person doesn't simply gain strength and talent through endless perfectly leveled hardship. In simpler terms, Batman can launch a thug across the room with a single punch and it's awesome, Black Widow, however, is breaking the laws of physics when she does her famous around the neck takedown.

Neither are realistic, arguably any grown man launching another grown man bodily through the air with a casual punch is less realistic than a woman pulling off a skilled takedown, but the unequal application of standards says all that needs to be said about the critic.

Writing a "mary sue" to be male often results in a praised character that people don't really worry about. Like Goku or Kirito. People are fine with it. Enjoy it. And there's massive amounts of rather popular fanfiction taking random male characters in series and sue-ifying them, making them the protagonist over the actual main characters, and slapping in poorly developed romance arcs. It's "mary sue" 101, but hardly anyone talks about them in that light.

Meanwhile a woman shows a level of competence similar to another character in the same series (e.g. Rey to Luke or Anakin) and the accusations are everywhere.

Calling these characters one-dimensional is one of the dog-whistles of the modern [whatever]-gate colony creature.

They know that they'll get savaged if they come out and say they're mad because this character is a woman, so they couch everything in these subjective terms. She's one-dimensional. She's flat. She's badly written. She's a mary sue. I just couldn't relate to her.

You can argue with them, you can point out that, say, in Star Wars, that Rey's ability to handle weapons intentionally established in the early scenes of TFA, that we see the setup for the skills she's going to display later in the movie/series, and that her first win is against a badly wounded Sith apprentice. By contrast, Luke successfully fights his way through a huge space station against professional soldiers, then hops into a starfighter he's never flown before, outflies a bunch of experienced pilots, and pulls off a physically impossible shot to save the day.

But sure. Rey is the one who strains credulity.

You can point all that out, but none of it matters. They're not arguing in good faith. They're just mad that there's a girl, and know better than to say that out loud.

He pulls off the shot because he has a throwaway line about murdering animals the size of a camel for fun in his civilian craft that just so happens to have controls similar to the military superiority fighter because they were manufactured by the same company. Because that doesn't strain credibility. Also guess which parts were filled in later by novel writers who were like, "holy **** that makes no sense at all"

Sailor Moon and Sansa Stark are two female characters that start out as whiney cry-baby girlie girls who evolve into political powerhouses and heroes in their own right. But most people write their characters off immediately, because they’re disgusted by their girlish-ness.

While our media gives male characters a chance to grow, female characters are generally written off unless they either show masculine traits, or are used for fan service. It’s why women in movies and TV are usually a kickass tomboy or a girlfriend character.

So anyway, I guess my point is that there are amazing kickass women characters who are well-written and evolve and grow, but their growth tends to be written off as frivolous and not as cool as their dude counterparts.

Imagine an anime where the woman is the main character and she's strong, smart, and not sexualized ?

How about Guardian of the Spirit (seirei no moribito in Japanese)? The MC is a mercenary woman who fights with a spear. She's a complex character, maybe somewhat emotionally stunted because of growing up on the road. She meets a wonderful, compassionate male healer and I love how they break stereotypical gender roles. There's also a complete badass old lady with magical powers and a temper. One of my favourite characters in any genre.

But I'd like to add SuleMio to the list.

Some people did not like that Gundam had its first female protagonist last year, or that she's engaged to another girl, or that they have a romantic moment where Miorine makes Suletta "promise to be with me forever".

It's my first Gundam show and I was nowhere near the fandom, but even I heard the howls of rage from the otakus over that show while it was airing.

“ I highly recommend reading Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson. Strong female main character with a supportive cast of male characters. His Skyward series is also good for this. Sanderson is great but there are some female fantasy writers that do this even better IMO. NK Jemisin has tons of great female characters. Tamsyn Muir’s Locked Tomb series has a majority female cast and I’d say 4 or 5 of them are in the top ten most interesting and complex female characters I’ve read. “

You heard of The Bechdel test: Two women have to talk about something other than a man. There is no time window. It came up in a 1985 comic Dykes To Watch Out For and although it is not a great indicator of more feminist content, it's a wonder much media fails to pass that test.

Have you seen

Arcane? That is a wild crazy masterpiece with awesomely complex awesome characters. It's animated, yeah, so what? But I mean, to say "it's animated" is a heavy understatement. Have you seen Jinx? Have you seen her portrayal of psychosis and godknows what else was happening in her head? No one in history came even close to that.

Queen's Gambit? Anya Taylor-Joy brought Beth Harmon flawlessly through immense complexity of the character

Mare of Easttown - Kate Winslet there is, I kid you not, the best acting I have ever seen. Her character is going through complex situations and emotions and learning to deal with her human side. Bryan Cranston raised the bar ridiculously high with Walter White, but Kate Winslet pushed it further up, set explosives on it, and walked away like a badass without looking at the explosion. No one is topping that anytime soon.

I'm sure there are more examples. But what I love about these, and a big part of what makes them perfect is that they are their own characters and aren't defined by men around them. Their greatn

I wish female characters were given better in terms of development and characterization. Honestly, I feel like a lot of people hate female characters simply because most male dominated media does such a poor job of writing women, and those characters aren't given the same excuses as poorly written male characters.

Anyway, yeah, sorry for my rant. Having grown up on Anime, Harry Potter, Star Wars, you name it?

I later in life realized what was missing, what is needed, and really needed to hear other people's input on this stuff.

I never understood the need for every main character to be only a cishet white guy. I had already come up with several characters of my own, all of them LGBTQIA+, and half of them women, and several also POC. But my writing and art skills are poor so I can't visualize them properly...

We need more female authors, and we need to promote the ones that are out there more!

(there are plenty of really, really good female authors, in all genres, but often they get less attention, because, well, misogyny)

Edit: If you want an example of how the double-standard towards women and LGBT is applied? Go watch RWBY or Legend of Korra. Both involve a deconstruction of tropes. Both involve women standing up against an authority that demands respect based on being authority, not based on respect. Both shut down the white male savior trope so hard, that men and women who love the patriarchy despise both shows.

But of course, anything that Team RWBY or Korra does is immediately held to a double standard and ripped into for anything that they do NOT because they’re flawed or because of writing decisions. Its because they’re LGBT women that they’re held under a microscope. Or have you noticed that every fixit fanfic for both series involves defending the Patriarchy while supporting toxic masculinity and trying to revive the White Male Savior trope that both shows have tried so hard to bury six feet under?

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kingsmoot · 1 year

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Ok, so. It's interesting and really sad to me that Tyrion - a person who has suffered sexual abuse (w Tysha, that bit where Cersei hurt him as a baby, and probably many more lesser things) - has this more complex attitude towards Sansa than most of the creepy men in her life. In that aside from consistently trying not to marry her, he also acknowledges that she's a child, a little girl, not supposed to be in this situation (considering the world of Westeros, this is... almost entirely a conclusion he came to himself, as the only other character we see thinking of a teenager this way (iirc) is Ned. Most likely the average decent people are aware of how gross pedophilia is but. You get what I mean!) He doesn't show this same attitude towards Lancel which is it's own thing but also ties into his attitude towards himself.

He's aware that she's too young for this, but the fact that he started a sexual relationship at 13 himself (alongside he desperate need to be wanted and loved, but especially wanted) makes him still... try it with her when they get married.

And the line that really hits me is, "You're a child [...] but I want you. Does that scare you, Sansa?" Which, on so many levels:

a. Gross

b. It's partially because of how Westeros sexualises kids and teens (remember Arya? The nine year old?) that he's even aware of her sexuality. She's been advertised as a sexual object by the Lannisters all day.

c. Gross, and also Tyrion is immoral as hell

d. He's never been grey in this particular direction before and that's horrible to read! Until now it's mostly been him lashing out at people (he thinks are) prejudiced against him. ADWD is coming...

e. IDK if he'd still be this sort of - we'd call it a pervert but it's not perverse in the nobility of Westeros is the horrible thing - individual if he was in a less child-eating setting, (bc that's some heavy psychological theory there) but the idea that he would, he'd just never show it, is almost more hair-raising than the more visible sliminess...

completely agree wrt tyrion's understanding of sansa as a child being unique to him. cersei and tywin both say explicitly that because she's had her first moon's blood she is a woman grown and ready to be wedded and bedded. and in general, child brides abound in westeros. it is a cultural norm to marry off girl-children. tyrion is a singular and notable exception in saying that this is wrong and he wants no part in it. tywin even expresses annoyance when he first says this because sansa is meant to be his "reward" for a job well done on the blackwater because of how her status as heir to winterfell would bolster tyrion's own inheritance as a second son.

i actually think that tyrion not showing this attitude towards lancel is a reflection of how sex in general is framed in westeros (which isn't too different from how sex is framed in real life) where it is something that can only be good for men, never bad, and is expected to be bad, painful, uncomfortable, or unwanted for women but they should be doing it anyway. i think tyrion's acceptance of lancel being crushed between the cogs of lannister sibling machination is a combination of his own traumatic sexual experience in his youth, and the culturally held belief that regardless of cersei being twice lancel's age, she is the most beautiful women in the seven kingdoms, and even if she is going to bite his head off and eat it at the end of this, he should enjoy the experience.

i also think you pointing out the fact that average people are likely aware that pedophilia is bad is a very interesting part of the series in terms of how smallfolk view the intricate depravities of their nobility. there hasn't been a lot of smallfolk perspective so far in my reread (beside arya's adventures with hotpie and gendry which lend a really good perspective but not specifically on this) but i get the sense that they aren't keen on the child marriage and dynastic incest.

i think the thing to remember is that like, we as readers can be disgusted at tyrion climbing into bed naked with sansa and telling her he wants her, because we as readers have a better perspective on this situation and haven't been raised in westeros. that's a good thing! i think that scene is definitely supposed to make us feel ill. but the important thing is that tyrion chooses not to "exercise his rights as a husband" and rape sansa in their marital bed, which is unheard of in westeros.

even cat and ned, who are like in general the golden het standard of a perfect westerosi arranged marriage, even cat describes that she was terrified of her wedding night, that she "gave her maidenhead" to a dark sullen stranger and watched him ride off to war. like it is simply not done in westeros that you would spare your wife her expected marital rape. it is what she has been preparing for all day and it is what is expected of you, her lord husband. cat even watches roslyn cry all the way through her own wedding and thinks "well of course she would be inconsolable, she must be so scared of getting raped later" (with the understanding that the crime of rape does exist in westeros and can be charged for but the definition of rape does not include the sex forced onto women and girls in their wedding beds, so cat does not think of this as rape in her mind. but i do.)

so i think in this case tyrion is grey to readers because we have the understanding that it is wrong to rape a 13 year old girl and inherit her lands and get her pregnant so that they pass into your household lineage so that the lannisters hold the west, south, and the north. but by westerosi standards he's doing some sort of baelor the blessed schtick that everyone finds annoying.

#ask tag #worlds best sippycup #tyrion tag #sansa tag

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rise-my-angel · 1 year

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Strap in its "no one asked for this but im gonna bitch about it anyways" time. Listen, I make fun of Big E as much as the next person but I'll be damned if I don't defend him against Sansa interrupting his speech and telling him to just like sit down and be quiet in the series finale.

Edmure Tully is a bit of a doofus, but he suffered as much as anyone else in these wars. He spent one night with his wife before he was captured and held prisoner for 5 years when his nephew and king, sister, family and entire army was slaughteted outside. He didn't meet his own son until the child was 4 years old and was told that child would he killed if Edmure didn't give into enemy demands. He never once let his situation destory his resolve. He left his shackles as much of a man that values family, duty, and honour as much as the best of his family did. He is the only one of the most immediate family members of his House that's even alive and the only one in that entire group who had the courage to volunteer for a position that NO ONE ELSE IN THAT GROUP even bothered to put their name up for.

But because Sansa needs a cool shut down moment and the writers don't give a single shit about Edmure, she tells him to basically sit down and shut up when he was the only man even trying to offer a peaceful solution to who could be ruler.

What else do you need Edmure to go through before you let him speak his mind, Sansa? You shut down all of Arya's trauma too, do you just require your equals to be sexual assaulted before they have the right to be as girlboss as you?

Is Edmure the best choice for King? No, probably not, but you DO NOT KNOW HIM at all. Sansa knows next to nothing about this man and thinks she has the right to tell him to sit down. A better choice would have been the recently legitimized Gendry who is the son of the last king that ever held the peace and comes from poverty of flea bottom and knows the people, or you know, your fucking half brother, who is literally the secret King but you just let the Unsullied send him to die without the pack. Sansa didn't offer any choices other then independent rule for herself (that if we go by the books she has no right to that position anyways). Edmure at least had the bravery to stand up and plead his case.

Everyone can clap and make memes and gifs of Sansa getting an "own" on her uncle but he remained a better man through the last 7 years of war then Sansa could ever hope to be.

Fuck it, fuck her, fuck Bran the "i can never be lord of anything why do you think i came all this way" Broken.

Big E for the One True King of Westeros.

#guys im mad at sansa again her post season 4 character makes me wanna eat a bag of spoiled turnips #game of thrones #edmure tully #anti sansa stark #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #long post

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esther-dot · 1 year

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Lyanna and Elia death actually hit the readers with emotions. Both were innocent who died because of others actions. We get to know about them more from their close families and friends and we sympathize with them. The way Ned, Oberyn and Doran mourn them leaves impact. Ned tore down the tower of Joy and commit treason to protect Jon. Oberyn risk his own life to seek justice for his sister. Yet same can't be said about Rhaegar because the people and his family has no real connection or emotions with him. Viserys never really told Dany about Rhaegar being a brother. Dany is obsessed with the idea of Rhaegar who she don't know. Jon Con who is obsessed with him had no real connection with him.

(prev ask)

They really do! Martin did a very good job conveying horror and grief over their fates. I won’t insert the quote about Elia, it’s so deeply disturbing, and the image of her babies before the throne… devastating. Everyone talks about Ned's trauma for a reason, even though we're books past his last breath, his memories of Lyanna's death, his inner torment, they're haunting.

Tbh, I'm gonna happily hate on Rhaegar regardless of where Martin takes things, so I have to really work to be unbiased. But, when I look at certain elements that pop up in Jon’s chapters that are meant to reach back into pre-canon and bring Rhaegar into the story, I’ve evolved how I read it, and don’t think Martin was writing Rhaegar as a sadistic fuck. I have to think, given the contradictory pictures we're given, that Martin is writing about what he repeatedly has written about. What do we do with people who are several things, different things, all at once?

The Hound saves Sansa, then threatens her life. Tyrion is a villain who chooses to not have sex with Sansa because he can't ignore her fear. Jon sees Ygritte weep over a song and the fate of giants, smile at him, and then callously murder an innocent man before nearly killing Jon. Martin believes in what I’ve called “expansive” characterization. They characters are multifaceted not to make us ignore one side, but to ask us to develop our ability to feel fear and compassion, to feel warmth and a chill, to find things to love and hate in the same place.

I admire that and think it's crucial not only to fully enter the characters' worlds and POV, but to be able to embrace the anti war theme. The books have so much more meaning when I accept that I love Ned, I believe the Westerosi were right to overthrow the Targs, but from Dany’s perspective, she is right to despise Starks. Her family was killed. To have Targs and Starks alike think of what Elia’s babies suffered with horror, even while they are on opposing sides of the war, that’s the truth about the war, isn't it? What we're meant to find at the heart of it all? It is tragedy for everyone. That’s what makes the series anti-war, it has to avoid glorifying violence, not just say it’s sad to lose—it must still be awful to win. When Maester Aemon mourns the death of his family, desperately wants to save Daenerys, I am meant to feel the tragedy in this, listen to the pain on both sides.

(I mean, I'm hardcore anti targ and all they represent, but I'm talking about what I believe Martin ideally wants)

As much as I believe Jon will have strong negative feelings about Rhaegar's choices, horror even, I can't imagine that Martin will write Jon's feelings as entirely one-note. He's gonna introduce some conflict, he always does. We don't yet know what that might be, but when I was rereading the Mance meeting, saw how Mance and Jaime both had a connection to Jon's central struggle, realized how the Rhaegar-esque aspect of Mance was associating Rhaegar to it all...well, I did entertain the thought that Rhaegar's actions can be read as a parallel to Jon's theme:

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. (AGOT, Jon VIII)

Obviously, this is primarily about Jon, I expect it to play out in Jon’s story, but it does sound Rhaegar-esque. Jon might have been that baby to Rhaegar.

That would mean we condemn him for how he failed Elia and the babies, his kingdom, that Jon would still that horror, but would prevent Jon from being able to completely despise the man, as he too has felt torn between vows and love.

(insert my caveats re: prophecy baby, being very much at peace with Rhaegar bleeding out etc)

The pain comes in with complexity, and I think that’s what Martin wants even if I’m personally unmoved by it.

#anti rhaegar #r+l=j #dot chat

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symphonyofsilence · 2 years

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What annoys me about a Jon Snow sequel series is more than how it is yet another forced, unnecessary spin-off of a beloved franchise to milk it dry.

Yes, HoTD was great. I did not expect it to be. But it surprised me in the best way. But it was from a very great book GRRM has already written. We already knew it was a great story. GRRM wrote it because he really had a great idea. And the show was loyal to the books. In some ways, it improved on it. And it had an entirely new cast of characters with entirely new stories. Even the world was different than what we knew.

But the thing about Jon snow is that show! Jon Snow had ceased to be Jon Snow for some time. Jon showing his intelligence and strategic thinking and political skills by suggesting Alys Karstark's marriage to Sigorn of the Thenns, and advising Stannis to attack the Iron islands first instead of attacking Winterfell was key to his character. But I could live with the erasure of those. It would make him less awesome, but it wouldn't make him a bad character.

What did make him a bad character was not only making him fall in love with Daenerys after about 3 conversations all of them arguing about the throne, but GIVING THE NORTH TO HER! The north! Which two of his brothers died for! His sister suffered so much for it! The North that its people trusted him with! Even though all his life he had thought that he would never have the chance to inherit it! And he desired it so much! Remember how tempted he was when Stannis offered it to him?! And remember when he said that he couldn't accept it because it was SANSA'S BIRTHRIGHT?!

Real Jon Snow would not only fight tooth and nail for the North but he would do it because he'd believe that it's Sansa's birthright! He wouldn't give Sansa's birthright away! Especially not after she went through hell for it!

You can't distribute land and kingship because your crush saved you, Jonathan, you're not Maedhros the tall!

And to top it all, he only looked miserable and had about three lines for the entirety of the last season. He was my first favorite character in the books I couldn't wait to get to his chapters, but in season 8 I wanted him to shut up every time he opened his mouth.

(No, I didn't want him to become the king. I didn't want anyone to become the king. I thought the story showed us so many even good people becoming horrible monarchs to show that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." And Monarchy should be set aside. But even if we went with Monarchy, No, Jon Snow was not the true heir to the Iron Throne because he was the last Targaryen. Targaryens were legitimately and lawfully removed from the Iron Throne and replaced by the Baratheons. But at that time, Westeros was in so much chaos that the Iron throne belonged to anyone who could get their hands on it.)

So I hope the Jon Snow show surprises me and turns out to be enjoyable. But I don't see how a show about Jon Snow can be good after they have destroyed Jon Snow and the world he lives in.

#jon snow #game of thrones #got #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #grrm #hbo #sansa stark #the starks #house stark #my two cents

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becomingpart2 · 3 months

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it’s funny how candy was on her “Caroline is hated for being feminine” bullshit, when she hated Sansa stark, who was loved by feminist tumblr but who was hated outsider of tumbr, allegedly due to her femininity. maybe it’s because candy considered Sansa more “palatable” to male audiences, because she was sweet and polite and “virginal” and used “soft power” to survive. I’m not sure if I entirely agree with Sansa stans that Sansa was hated for being feminine though. Like people will see that Daenerys and Arya are more popular than sansa because Sansa is feminine and Dany and Arya are a badass dragon queen, and a badass tomboy respectively. I think that Sansa hate has more to do to her actions in season one and audiences being unwilling to forgive female characters who fuck up. Like with Sansa I do think her being hyper feminine on a show with a large male audience lead to her being hated, but there were other factors too, her not being as “cool” as Dany and arya, not having any badass moments until the later seasons, and being hostile to Arya who is a fan favourite. It’s kind of wild that candy considered Sansa a “popular” character, when Caroline, who she considered the fandom underdog, was a million times more popular than sansa. Anyways Sansa became more popular in the later part of the series and gained an incredibly loud and annoying fan base, who hated on Dany and Arya in really gross misogynistic ways, and shipped Sansa with Jon, the shows only shippable male character, which lead to the Sansa vs Dany ship war

maybe it’s because candy considered Sansa more “palatable” to male audiences, because she was sweet and polite and “virginal” and used “soft power” to survive.

Definitely. I think that's definitely the case.

I think a lot of what candy saw in caroline that she thought was what made her unlikeable to both the characters in the show and the audience is that she was a "slut". I remember a lot of her arguments surrouding elena and the sirebond were that the fandom was enraged because elena was not "that kind of girl" so her being be sexually abused is enough to draw people's ire while caroline "deserved it".

Like people will see that Daenerys and Arya are more popular than sansa because Sansa is feminine and Dany and Arya are a badass dragon queen, and a badass tomboy respectively [...] Like with Sansa I do think her being hyper feminine on a show with a large male audience lead to her being hated, but there were other factors too, her not being as “cool” as Dany and arya, not having any badass moments until the later seasons, and being hostile to Arya who is a fan favourite.

See, that's the thing, it's all so relative LOL

The same femininity that might make Sansa more "hateable" than characters like Dany or Arya, might be what makes her more "likeable" (because she's not a whore aka men wanna fuck her?) LOL it's so weird.

Bottom line is that misogyny is a thing and female characters will be hated regardless of how they present. Trying to find reasons for why some might be more hated than others is ultimately useless because it solves nothing and all it does it pity women against each other, creating a competition over who are the ones that "deserve" to be hated and who are the ones that deserve to be defended and "vindicated" in canon.

It’s kind of wild that candy considered Sansa a “popular” character, when Caroline, who she considered the fandom underdog, was a million times more popular than sansa.

Haha yes! This is further evidence that this is all relative and dependent on whose point of view were talking about. All female characters suffered from misogyny of the fandom and even from said feminist fans. Candy just appropriated the criticisms women of colour, especially black women made with regards to the treatment of black female characters to elevate her white faves and shit on their perceived "rivals".

#anonymous #answered

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jackoshadows · 3 years

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It really pisses me off when I see justifications for Catelyn’s treatment of Jon Snow. Like just straight up abuse apologia.

Cat was not Jon’s mother, so it was not abuse.

Cat did not kill Jon like Cersei killed Robert’s bastards and so it was not abuse.

She did not have him beaten so not abuse

Jon was fed and clothed, so it was not abuse

Jon did not fear for his life like Theon, so it’s not abuse

Cat was not obligated to treat a little child with kindness and basic decency, so it’s not abuse.

Jon does not show any visible signs of trauma, so it’s not abuse

Making a child feel like he is should not eat their food, making him feel isolated and unwanted, never calling him by name, treating him different to his siblings - all not abuse, just Jon being oversensitive.

There is a difference between understanding why Catelyn acted that way towards Jon and justifying her actions towards him.

Was Catelyn a victim of Ned’s actions? Yes. Was Ned wrong in how he treated Catelyn? Yes. Does she have reasons to think her children’s right to Winterfell would be endangered by Jon Snow’s presence? Yes. Did Catelyn have reasons to be angry, frustrated, helpless and bitter about Jon? Yes. Was it an insult to Catelyn and house Tully that Ned brought up Jon at WF? Yes. Was it easier for Catelyn to take out her frustrations on Jon rather than Ned? Yes.

Is it okay and right for Catelyn to then take out those frustrations on a child? NO.

I can understand why she treated him that way. Catelyn is flawed and human. She was married to Ned Stark. She can’t divorce him, she can’t fight with him. To have love and stability in her marriage she has to go along with Ned’s decision and bring no animosity to the table.

So what does she do? She takes out her anger about that entire situation on a child. She transfers all that anger and negativity to Jon as a way to deal with this situation. Ned brings up Jon at Winterfell? It’s Jon’s fault. Jon looks like Ned? It’s Jon’s fault.

Was Catelyn particularly cruel to Jon? No. No one expects Catelyn to be a mother to Jon. But Jon was a child. An innocent baby. Of the three of them - Ned, Catelyn, Jon - he was the least responsible and had the least power to do anything.

Imagine, as a child, one sees the rest of one’s siblings get love and affection and at the same time be ostracized and not even called by one’s name. Imagine being a child and looked at with hate and anger. Being begrudged one’s food.

He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room.

He stood in the door for a moment, afraid to speak, afraid to come closer.

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room. “Please,” he said.

Something cold moved in her eyes. “I told you to leave,” she said. “We don’t want you here.” Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry.

He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time. “Yes?” he said. “It should have been you,” she told him.

“You Starks are hard to kill,” Jon agreed. His voice was flat and tired. The visit had taken al the strength from him. Robb knew something was wrong. “My mother... “ “She was... very kind,” Jon told him. Robb looked relieved.

Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn’s sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark’s bastard. As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.

It was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

Imagine reading the above and thinking that Jon is being whiny and oversensitive because of his reaction to emotional abuse. That he should just ‘man up’ and not be bothered, to discount and undermine his narrative and experience because the smallfolk have it worse. Why then consider the experiences of any of the main characters in this series? They ALL have it better than the smallfolk.

What does it matter if Jon never feared for his life unlike Theon? Is that the line at which we define what abuse is? That a child must fear for his life for it to be abuse? What does it matter if Catelyn was not like Cersei and did not murder him? Is that where we draw the line? To have it really bad as a bastard, one must be murdered?

And it’s not like Jon does not blame Ned for his situation or that Ned is entirely exonerated in his eyes. His bastardy and Ned’s actions are what complicates his relationship with Ygritte.

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.” Jon trembled. “I will never father a bastard,” he said carefully. “Never!” He spat it out like venom.

And again, I have noticed that it’s only Jon’s pain at being a bastard that’s undermined again and again because he had it better than others.

Sansa had it better than Jeyne Poole because Sansa was a Stark and Jeyne was just a steward’s daughter. Jeyne was send to LF’s brothel, send to Ramsay Bolton, raped and tortured. Does it mean that the abuse Sansa suffered in KL does not count? But it’s these same folks, who play the oppression olympics of how Sansa suffered the most of all the characters and hence deserves a fairy tale ending, writing essays about how Catelyn was totally justified in her treatment of Jon and it was really Cat who is the victim in that situation because she was ‘rightfully putting her children’s inheritance above the feelings of her husband’s bastard child’.

It’s easy to understand that Catelyn is a flawed and human character, who was as trapped in this situation as Ned and Jon, who had limited options on how to respond and at the same time acknowledge that she was wrong to ostracize, isolate and treat with cruel anger a little child, who was not responsible for the situation they found themselves in.

#Catelyn Stark #Jon Snow #Ned Stark #Fandom nonsense #I observe that it's always the Sansa stans who downplay the experiences and abuse of other character #It's all no big deal #Only Sansa suffered in the entire series #But this idea that Catelyn did no wrong is also pervasive in the wider fandom #For some reason when it comes to Catelyn there is a kneejerk reaction to defend justify and excuse abuse #Emotional abuse is still abuse #Especially when a little child is subjected to it #asoiaf

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jaime-brienne-fic-exchange · 2 years

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Fic Exchange Roundup: TV Canon

now you're out on the bottomless sea by Roccolinde for angelowl

He finds her on a rampart overlooking the position of the left flank.

longed for as the sunwarmed earth by Roccolinde for angelowl

“You will not escape,” Daenerys says, imperious as she tosses a small leather saddlebag of supplies at his feet. “Or I will take the heads of all those you hold dear. Your brother. Your sister, if she survives what is to come.” She pauses, then smiles in a manner that is far too reminiscent of her father, before the madness took him entirely. “Lady Brienne, of course, though perhaps only after I have made her watch her lady’s death.” Days after arriving in the south, Jaime is exiled.

No One Told Me, I Was Going To Find You by boywholivednotdied for aleighcarlisle

Over the years, Jaime Lannister has fought in wars, suffered several near-death experiences, and faced down at least one bear... but telling Brienne of Tarth how he feels about her is perhaps the hardest thing he has ever had to do.

maybe next time by nubbins_for_all for EllisJay

“Beasts do not have honor,” she tells him. She makes it sound so obvious. “But some men choose to abandon theirs.” Well thank you, Brienne, what the fuck am I supposed to do with that? A series of goodbyes.

Carried by the Current of the Morning by NinT for sea_spirit

He gets up gingerly, eyes on the bobbing horizon. She rises like sea foam, her weight planted to counter-balance his steps. The tilt of the waves absorbs through her hip to disappear somewhere beneath her shoulders, steady as her blade as they swivel around each other. The casual display of confidence is plenty to put him in an obnoxious mood. “This is not the place that I was born in. But it doesn't mean it's not the place where I belong.” ‘Bees’ by The Ballroom Thieves

Plant Your Hope by anr for nubbins_for_all

She had expected this no more than she had once thought to be knighted true. (aka, Five times Jaime and Brienne kissed.)

when the day is winding down, my heart abandons me for you by majicienne for Roccolinde

After surviving Kingslanding Jaime tries to find Brienne. Not knowing if she wants to be found.

Home Waters by kirazi for NinT

Tomorrow, he tells himself, as he waits for sleep to come—tomorrow, he’ll see her again, breathe in the scent of her, feel the warmth of her skin pressed close against his own. If he’s lucky—and he’s been luckier, these past few years, than a man with his history has any right to be—she’ll be there waiting to greet him when he arrives. He imagines it, drowsy and fading, fixing every detail of the image in his mind as if the force of will might turn it into fact: she’s the very first thing he sights through the glass as they sail into Sarallon harbor, her fair hair the shining beacon that will guide him safely back to land.

Time Out of Mind by KayJayTeal for Bellatrix_Wannabe_89

It was fortunate that Tyrion was the one sitting by Jaime’s bedside when he woke. This day would have been even longer and more trying than it already was had Jaime opened his eyes to an unfamiliar face. Or an unfamiliar lover. For not the first time, Tyrion heaved a heavy sigh and wished for a drink. But it was not time for that yet. Not until he found Brienne and gave her the distressing news. Jaime was awake. But he had no memory beyond the fateful day he pushed young Bran Stark from window ledge.

and if tomorrow it's all over, at least we had it for a moment by Roccolinde for anr

An agreement is made after the meeting at the Dragonpit. Queen Cersei will send 7000 Lannister men north to fight the undead threat, with one condition: the alliance will be sealed by the marriage of Ser Jaime Lannister to Sansa Stark's sworn sword.

your hand touching mine (this is how galaxies collide) by Roccolinde for anr

There is an art to dealing with men like Roose Bolton. It requires a delicate dance of clever words and implicit threats, of deference intertwined with reminders that Jaime is the one with true power. It is a duel, not near so satisfying as swordplay but just as likely to end in bloodshed. What it does not require is a dinner knife to the throat while surrounded by a castle full of men loyal to him. Or: Five Times Jaime Or Brienne Reached For The Other’s Hand (And One Time They Reached Together)

#Fic Recs #jaime x brienne fic exchange

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captnjacksparrow · 3 years

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Hey, really liked your analysis of Hinata. I feel almost the same way about her. Even though generally I dislike female characters who are naturally meek, subservient and pointless with no character arc in any type of media, what made me absolutely hate her character was how she treated Neji. If Kishi wanted to show her arc being developed organically, instead of proposing to Naruto that removes her stuttering and gives her new found confidence (because girls only get confident when proposing to guys 🙄), Kishi could have shown her talking to Neji after he literally told his bitter story on the chuunin exam grounds in front of everyone. She is shown like she is sympathetic but didn't do anything about it. She didn't even talk to him after he was hospitalized. She knew exactly why he was the way he was, and yet she fights him as if it was his fault. She, an heir of the clan, could have asked her father to support Neji, she had some clout. But nope. In fact, it was Neji who apologizes to her in a way, he is the one who trains her and help create a new jutsu for her. What did she ever do for him exactly? And Neji didn't have to help her. She was in the best position to help and understand Neji but what did she do? A lot of fans like her character because she is reserved but kind and sympathetic. She is reserved but a coward. She was not kind towards Neji. He died for her when he didn't deserve to, he had dreams and goals that were much bigger than Hinata's entire existence. She couldn't even see her own cousin's pain and she claims to understand Naruto?? Really??

Even Kishi said she was a pitiful character who only watches from a distance. He deliberately made her that way, no goal, no backbone and no lines. And I think she sucks the most after Danzo.

WoooW!!!! Thanks for the ask, Anon.

[[Hinata and Sakura fans!!!! Please stay away and don't interact. I fucking tagged them properly]].

Even though generally I dislike female characters who are naturally meek, subservient and pointless with no character arc in any type of media, what made me absolutely hate her character was how she treated Neji.

We definitely share the same thoughts on this one, Anon.

I am really tired on most of the media for their poor treatment of female characters.

The last time I was amused by a female character was from 'Game of Thrones', I loved Cersei Lannister, who is an absolute biashhh and Sansa Stark, started out as an annoying rose tinted princess but ended up winning everyone's heart. Both are non-combative, soft spoken and somewhat powerless women in a world dominated by men. But they just didn't let the inconveniences stop them and instead they learned how to fuck that world back and take control. Both are similar and yet very different.

After seeing, such well-developed characters..... For me girls in Naruto series, is blehhhhh..... Nothing to get inspired from them. And I knew it by episode 3 itself. I have no idea how can girls, in real life, treat Sakura as some feminist icon, which makes my skin crawl for number of reasons. If you point her mistakes out in any discussions, they will pull the misogynist card to your face. When in reality, I am also a girl and my world views are entirely different from Sakura or Hinata. There is no way a 12 year old girl would want to look at the Duck of another boy.

And the problem is, They form the majority, I mean people who can connect with Sakura or Hinata. So, as long as girls like them exists, we really should suffer from these crap portrayal I guess.

That's why I advise people that If you want to see a good woman character, Narutoverse is not the place.

Having said that, I find Temari, Konan, Tsunade were better (I mean inside the Narutoverse). Though their motivations or reason to achieve a goal revolve around their men, I find their attitude relieving. Unlike Sakura or Hinata, they don't wet themselves on the sight of the men they love.

What irritates me was, Kishimoto could've easily put a character like Temari or TenTen or Tsunade into Team 7. It would've made my viewing experience a lot better. If he doesn't want the strong girls to take over the attention from his boys, then he should've introduced a meek character like Rin Nohara. She is silent and cute but atleast she was willing to die for the Village and never wetted herself over Kakashi, though she loved him. And she treated Obito like her best friend. But he deliberately made Sakura hateful and he never stopped.

Sakura and Hinata were the lowest of the low, compared to any other side characters. And, in the end, they got the main Character's Ducks without actively doing anything. For me this tells me three things

He was using these girls as a shield to close the hetero normative mouths while in reality hiding those boys true feelings under that shield.

He really hated these kind of girls and constantly showing his hatred on them at every given chance and never redeemed them back.

He knew the target audience’ mindset and he simply caters them by giving them what they need and at the same time writing the important arcs according to his wish.

I think, it’s the combination of all three.

Just to give you an example.

There is this delusional SS shipper Who justifies Sasuke was acting Tsundere throughout the war arc. I mean, come on!!!!

I came across this post because, the Original Poster was an idiot who comes into the anti SS tag and reblogged my content and saying I was wrong... So, I don’t mind sharing that person’s content.

So I don’t know where this delusion comes from... It's truly pathetic.

There are millions of idiots who believe in this kind of shit and Kishi is deliberately feeding them with bits and crumbs while making his boys go out and save the world.

These delusional mindset tells us they don’t give a single shit about the story as a whole. They watch it purely for the pretty faces and getting high over them. In this case, Sasuke.

It’s as clear as day that Sasuke didn’t care about anyone other than Naruto when fighting the war. You don’t have to be a shipper but even a non-shipper can point this out. I mean Sasuke wouldn’t have saved Jugo either, if he didn’t come to Sasuke and advice him. Do you think Sasuke would’ve tried to look for Jugo and saved him at all cost???? It’s just that he came to Sasuke and he helps him back. But Sasuke would’ve saved Naruto from the bomb blast even if he was standing a mile away.

So, if these delusions reflects the mindset of the majority of the women audience, then the creator will never try to give anything better but instead give us some low-life characters like Sakura and Hinata.

So, Anon, your expectation for Hinata’s character could’ve been developed much better is just a wishful thinking. Because, Hinata is a character for these kind of people and not for us. And the author deliberately did it.

She was in the best position to help and understand Neji but what did she do? A lot of fans like her character because she is reserved but kind and sympathetic. She is reserved but a coward. She was not kind towards Neji. He died for her when he didn't deserve to, he had dreams and goals that were much bigger than Hinata's entire existence. She couldn't even see her own cousin's pain and she claims to understand Naruto?? Really??

For me, this also irked me a lot.

Hinata could’ve tried to talk to Neji about his problems even when he was a child. But she was simply playing innocent when in reality, she is just a coward. Even after the Chunin Exams, there was no apologies from her side, like you said. Because she is from the Main Branch. That hierarchy never changed. If she had the gall, she could’ve easily broken that hierarchy by saying, ‘I want Neji Nii-San to take over our Clan, He is the best candidate for this and I can gladly help him with all my efforts’. A single line and just 2 or 3 panels, it all takes.

For me killing Neji is where Kishi asking us silently,

Do you really want these pair to happen despite having a blood stain of another character???

Most people said, ‘Yes!!!’, because they don’t give two shits about Neji. As long as Hinata gets Naruto, the main character’s Duck, that’s all there is to it. It doesn’t matter who dies, who lives.

That's why Kishi is shitting on them by making her as a non-existent woman in the Boruto Manga.

Even in real life, there are many hopeless foolish little girls who would do anything for the man she loves. I've seen them and I always stay 2 miles away from them. I mean, they even ditch their own friends and spends her entire time with him and when he dumps her later, she will come back to her friends for consolation. I think Sansa Stark is the best example for this. She started out much similar to Sakura and Hinata, believing in Princes and shit, she even naively betrayed her father for the man she had crush on. But the author made her to learn her lesson in a much painful way and later she came out as a Queen who no longer needed any man at the end. I think, this is called Development.

At the end of the day, Romance and Sex is all that matters. The author knew it. So, he is feeding these girls with some low quality cookies and they are very glad to take and eat it.

#ask #anti naruhina #anti hinata #anti sakura #anti sasusaku #anti nh #anti ss #naruto analysis #sasunaru #sasunarusasu #sns #antisasusaku #antiss #antisakura

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jonsaslove · 3 years

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Fic writer tag game

Tagged by @esther-dot. Thank you!

How many works do you have on AO3? 36

What’s your total AO3 word count? 403,952 (this feels like a lot lol)

How many fandoms have you written for and what are they? 3 fandoms. 33 fics for Jonsa/GOT. 2 fics for Bellarke/The 100. And 1 fic for Ready or Not (2019 Film) for Grace/Daniel.

What are your top 5 fics by kudos?

run away with my love

My “What if Sansa went to Dragonstone with Jon Season 7 AU”

“Bran,” Jon says, one word and voice barely above a whisper.

Sansa takes a sip from her cup and sets it down, “I know.”

i feel you move (in distances worth keeping)

The “What if Daenerys won the war and Cersei fled with Jaime to Essos but five years later they come back to team up with the Starks to take down the Dragon Queen AU”

“Well then who are you writing to, who will be our saviour in all of this?”

Cersei looks Jaime right in the eye, “Sansa Stark."

searching (for what you want me to say)

The Season 8 AU where political Jon was real the entire time.

“I’ll have to repair it,” She breathes out and she knows he must feel her breath on his lips, they’re that close.

“Aye,” He lets out the smallest sound, “It did me well in the South. Northern furs to protect me and keep me warm. They made me think of you when I felt all was lost.”

more than skin

The fic from Daenerys’ POV where she picks up on what’s going on with Jon and Sansa.

Later, when Daenerys has blood spilling from her mouth, it will all make a sick sort of sense.

the next several are the continuing parts of the season 8 AU. So lastly there is this.

these cold veins

Following the events of Season 8 Sansa suffers. But eventually she has to flee for her own safety, she seeks Jon in the North.

“You know he regrets it Sansa,” Tormund spoke to her like the friend he had become over the years and Sansa winced.

“Regrets what Tormund?” she responded, a bit too snappish.

Tormund had given her a long searching look, as if he wasn’t sure how to articulate his words in a way that would be clear to her.

“All of it.”

Do you respond to comments, why or why not? I do respond to them all because my favourite part of posting is getting to respond to the people who love my stories, so even when it takes me a while I will get it done.

What’s the fic you’ve written with the angstiest ending? Most of my fics have happy endings, but I did write at the end, which is an AU in which all the Starks die and it follows Sansa’s final moments.

Do you write crossovers? If so what’s the craziest one you’ve written? Never have and I don’t have any plans to, though I toyed with a Jonsa/Lord of the Rings fic for a while.

Have you ever received hate on a fic? A handful of times, comes with the territory of writing for Jonsa I think.

Do you write smut? If so what kind? I have, in my mind it’s pretty basic, nothing too kinky. But it always fits the story and the characters.

Have you ever had a fic stolen? No, not that I know of.

Have you ever had a fic translated? Nope

What’s your all time favorite ship? Jonsa for sure, it’s what got me into writing fic. But I have a deep rooted love for Bellarke as well.

Whats a WIP that you want to finish but don’t think you ever will? I only have one WIP, my Sansa goes to Dragonstone AU sequel which I fully intend on finishing. But I have many ideas which will never come to fruition. Most regrettably and Older Starks AU where they are all in their late teens to early 20s at the start of the series and everything is darker because of it. I have it completely planned in broad strokes but I know I’ll never write it.

What are your writing strengths? I'm extremely well suited to planning, I know how to structure and organize scenes to tell the story I want to share. I’m also in tune with my characters and understand how they think and also how they interact with each other.

What are your writing weaknesses? I always want to say dialogue, but it’s only a struggle not an actual weakness. My biggest weakness is my hatred for describing setting. I am a very interior writer, I spend ages in their heads and all my characters value self reflection. But i’ll skip over setting up a big group scene or describe the surroundings in seven words and never touch on it again.

What are your thoughts on writing dialogue in other languages in a fic? Some people are very adept at it, and I am not one of them.

What was the first fandom you wrote for? Jonsa/GoT

What’s your favorite fic that you’ve written? This varies, but run away with my love is up there for sure, as mentioned above. But also I love my bellarke fic, words in my memory, because it was so challenging and equally rewarding to write from so many different perspectives.

Thanks again @esther-dot

I love talking about my writing, I tag anyone who wants to do the same :)

#jonsa #bellarke #fic #mine

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ramblings-of-a-mad-cat · 4 years

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okay so i just finished season 8, i can see why people didn’t like it but personally i really did. i feel like the thing people are mad about the most is that dany became a tyrant? watching the series knowing everyone’s endings allowed me to see things that most people probably wouldn’t catch on to. one thing is that arya’s end shot mimics the shot of her sailing to braavos at the end of season 4(i think it was season 4). also that danny’s speech to the dothraki, at the end, and her speeches to the unsullied,,, when paired with her actions(and with what tyrion said about how she kills evil men and we cheer her on i admit i did this too, but those cheers allow her to believe that she is always right and that makes her dangerous) it reminds me a lot of speeches dictators used. “you’re freeing the world” “we’re doing a great good” idk,, i like dany but i get annoyed when people say the signs weren’t there from the start, when they absolutely were. i do think that she could have been great, but people put to much faith in her which made her set extremely high expectations for herself and how people would treat her. and that ultimately led to her downfall. in short, i liked season 8. i like jon going north at the end, i like arya going off to explore, i really like sansa being queen, bran being king is eh but i like it overall. brienne writing jaime into the book of the kingsguard did made me cry, but i like that pod got knighted and i think brienne would have done something like that. even though he broke her heart.

My biggest issue with Season 8 is clear in my head, but difficult to describe with words.

Everyone seems to have at least one major plot point that hated to the point of feeling like it ruined the show. Jaime going back to Cersei, Arya killing the Night King, the Clegane Bowl, Sansa’s betrayal, the “R + L = J” storyline not amounting to much/the overall path of Jon’s character. And of course, Dany’s conclusion is a big one for most people. I don’t really have anything like that. (Okay that’s a lie, mine is the Grand Council scene. Fuck that scene in fifty different ways.) I suppose what makes Season 8 the “worst” season for a lot of people is that things just feel different. The writing feels different, the characters feel different, the storylines...it all feels just a bit “off.” I’m not even saying that it’s bad-different, but it isn’t good-different either. In hindsight, the fact that the writers were rushing through GOT to get to Star Wars...yeah, I can believe that.

But there’s a lot to like about Season 8 as well. Several things are carried over directly from Season 7 (which I’ll admit, is my favorite season) in particular, the first three episodes of S8 almost feel like the missing final three episodes of S7. I personally have no issue with Arya killing the Night King. While I did love the echoing of her boarding that ship like she did at the end of S4, and it totally feels like something she would do....I dunno, the line “A girl is Arya Stark from Winterfell. And I’m going home.” just really stuck with me, and I kinda thought she was over all that and just wanted to be with her family. I also have no issue with Sansa becoming Queen in The North. Like, what else was going to happen? Of course she would take up the mantle. Even if she wasn’t ready, who else was left? That said, she was ready and she damn well proved it in the final seasons. Sansa stood up for her people time and again. That was like, the entire reason for her conflict with Dany apart from overprotective sister instincts activating.

But, speaking of Dany...this is something that I always hesitate to talk about, but suffice it to say that I agree with you 100%. Of all the things in Season 8 that bothered me, I kinda saw this coming. Sure, I wish to hell and back that they hadn’t gone this direction, but it’s not even close to being as big a turnaround as Jaime had. I think a lot of fans identify with Dany and have latched onto her for that reason, and she’s a fantastic character to latch onto. But I’d be lying if I said that the signs weren’t there. She always did whatever the hell she wanted, and got away with it by the authority of “I have dragons.” This wasn’t just in the later seasons either. Remember the time she threatened to violate guest right because “My dragons made no such promise?” Tyrion’s speech to Jon in S8E6 was totally him being a loudspeaker for the writers, trying to convince the audience that this made sense...but it’s not like anything he said wasn’t true. As a Jon/Dany shipper, as someone who was rooting for either, or both of them, to wind up on the Iron Throne, as someone who unironically loved Dany’s character...yeah, it broke me. But it could have been worse. Some Dany stans hate Jon for killing her but seriously...at that point, what the hell was he supposed to do? She threatened Winterfell, and his sisters. Plus, y’know, she had murdered most of the population of King’s Landing. She had to be stopped, and Jon was the only one who stood a chance of getting close enough. He clearly hated having to do it, and he got a life sentence for it. So can’t we leave the poor guy alone? He’s suffered enough...

Jaime’s ending...is just depressing, and Brienne did not deserve that. I don’t hate Jaime for it, nor do I feel like it completely reversed all of the growth in his character. But it did yank his storyline in a total 180, and that can absolutely be utilized to tragic effect. The fact is, Jaime didn’t revert to being the asshole he was in Season 1. He simply resigned himself to the inevitability that he would always be that person. That because he still loved someone as wicked as Cersei, and had committed such crimes for her, that he would always be that person and there was no escaping it. The idea of becoming a better person was simply not something he would ever be allowed. This, my good friend, is 100% a symptom of abuse. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is toxic as hell, not because of the whole twin thing, but because she is an abuser who brings out the worst in him. If Jaime had to die, I wish it had gone a different way. I can respect the full circle, but this is just so not the ending I wanted for him. And hell, seeing him cradle Cersei in his arms, seeing her sob about how she doesn’t want their baby to die...damn it, the character who’s death I was most expecting to cheer at, and I can’t even properly enjoy it. But it was a beautiful death scene, I’ll give them that, and seeing Tyrion’s reaction to finding the golden hand? Kill me now.

The less that is said about the talking computer pretending to be Bran, the better. I won’t go into my spiel about why this enrages me because we’d be here forever, but I’ll just say that it actually made my knuckles whiten when they had the nerve to play House Stark’s theme over his coronation. Why? Why would they do that? It’s not like a Stark is being crowned King. Because, by his own admission, that entity sitting in the chair is not Brandon Stark anymore. He is the Three-Eyed Raven. Bran is effectively dead, and it low-key drives me crazy that everyone, including his family, just carry on as if that wasn’t the case. But I’ll leave it there. “King Bran” was a terrible idea, but I won’t go into the myriad of reasons why.

#Game of Thrones #Game of Thrones Season 8 #GOT Season 8 #Arya Stark #Sansa Stark #Daenerys Targaryen #Jon Snow #Jaime Lannister #The Three Eyed Raven #Brandon Stark

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justmyimagination92 · 5 years

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Why Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and Theon Greyjoy are similar, beautifully grey and real characters that represent overcoming abuse and manipulation and it makes no sense to love one but hate the other, a thread:

*Disclaimer* I have only watched the GoT series & SW movies, I have not read the books or comics for either series but I have done research into both so anything I’m pulling that’s not from the movies or show has been taken from research/information I have gathered from others who have used these sources for their own opinions/arguments/statements as well as from a GoT class I took my senior year of college

Life of Mental/Physical Abuse:

They both had mentally abusive upbringings which is obvious to say has a huge effect on your development and how you perceive the world around you. Theon was the youngest of 4, known to cling more to his mother and not care as much about the ironborn mentality of piracy and raiding as his older brothers did. He was constantly tormented and bullied by them for it as well as feeling neglected by his father for “showing weakness” which made him feel like he didn’t belong and wasn’t accepted in his home. He was then sent off to be Ned Stark’s ward (prisoner) and would be executed if Balon tried to rebel against the throne again. This knowledge is constantly hanging over his head and threatening him even though he makes the best of the situation, especially by finding a brother in Robb. The North and most of the Stark family don’t accept him despite his best efforts in trying to do his best while also missing the Iron Islands and not being able to fulfill his right as the heir to the salt throne

Ben has been mentally abused since he was in his mother’s womb. Palpatine has been in his head since he was conceived, trying to seduce him to the dark because he knew the power Ben would possess from his family. Now were his parents abusive towards him like Balon, Maron, and Rodrik were to Theon? No. But they were afraid of who he could become which definitely drove him towards becoming what they were afraid of to begin with. He felt isolated and alone. Aside from questioning why his parents were afraid of him with no explanation (making him feel like he was some sort of monster), Han was gone the majority of his upbringing and Leia was building the New Republic. He was often left with droids to watch him, further developing his isolation. There’s also apparently an instance where a droid fantasized about killing him and how they’d be able to cover it up? Eventually, L&H sent him off to be trained by Luke due to their growing fear of him becoming like Vader, but he didn’t know because they never told him Vader was his grandfather. He ended up finding out later on when it was announced at a senate meeting that was broadcasted on the holonet. (Keep in mind he’s consistently being mentally tormented and tempted by the dark but fighting it off)

Loss of Identity:

I think you can argue that Theon and Ben have struggled with their identity their entire lives. Before Theon was taken to Winterfell he already felt like he didn’t belong. Then he does his duty as Ned’s ward, placing him in the midst of the rest of the Starks and trying to figure out his place without stepping out of line but also wanting to fit in as best as he can. After Ned dies and he’s at war with Robb he is able to return home to persuade Balon in lending his fleet to help Robb. Balon refuses and now Theon is stuck in deciding if he should help Robb or win over his father and take back his place as a Greyjoy. He leads an attack at Winterfell, betraying his loyalty to Robb, killing two farm boys that all of Westeros believes is Brand and Rickon, which leads to him getting overthrown by the Boltons taking Winterfell back, putting him in the hands of Ramsay who tortures him mentally, physically, and spiritually to the point where he takes on the persona of Reek and truly believes that’s who he is, who he was meant to be and who he deserves to be

Ben has also had this lifelong struggle. He’s tried to follow what his parents have taught him while fighting everything going on in his head. He looked up to his dad and wanted to be a pilot like him despite Han being gone a majority of the time. Not to mention just the pressure he faced with being Han & Leia’s son as well as Luke Skywalker’s nephew. But he could sense and sometimes hear his parents discuss their fear of who he is/who he will be. He was under the impression that they thought he was or could become some sort of monster and gave him no explanation on why they would think that and then was sent off to train with Luke (when there’s no real indication that he wanted that, he just voiced how he wanted to be a pilot) Luke could sense the same darkness in him as H&L but instead of helping him and having a conversation about it he decided to sneak into Ben’s tent one night and kill him before his fears came true. Ben awoke to his own uncle standing over him with an ignited lightsaber about to strike him down. Yes, Luke regretted it the minute he ignited it but it was too late, Ben was awake and betrayed. What he didn’t do (but the galaxy thought he did) was destroy the Jedi temple and the rest of the padawans, a higher power (most likely Palpatine) did and Ben was upset about it and he didn’t want them all to die. He felt like he had nowhere else to go and succumbed to the voice that had been tormenting him for 23 years (but in a way was the only consistent thing in his life) and went to Snoke. He felt unwanted, untrusted, and doomed to become this awful being everyone around him thought he would. He took on the persona Kylo Ren and allowed Snoke to continue to torture him mentally and now physically and spiritually to ultimately turn him into Snoke's chess piece to take over the galaxy

Path of bad decisions driven by the need to please their abuser who gives false hope of a home:

Parts of this are redundant but they both have made some terrible decisions that were heavily influenced by the manipulation of their abusers and a need for a sense of acceptance and belonging. Theon wanted to please Balon and later Ramsay, Kylo wanted to please Snoke and his grandfather (who we later find out was all Palpatine). The majority of deaths that Kylo is blamed for were under Snoke’s orders and Kylo was either unaware they were happening or tried to prevent them and resort to other solutions to get whatever it is they wanted. He killed his father because he was convinced it would make him stronger and reach his potential on “who he’s destined to be” when really it tore him apart and destroyed him,

similarly to how Theon felt after he killed those farm boys and saw what his actions had created for Winterfell and Westeros

Acceptance of “who they truly are” through self-hatred and regret:

Through this they come to terms with their actions and the destruction that has followed from those actions. They believe they deserve the pain and suffering they’ve had their whole lives. Theon is constantly saying how Theon is dead, he’s Reek and he deserves to be. Ben states how Ben is dead, he’s only Kylo now and that he deserves to be seen as a monster.

Needing help to be pulled back to their true selves:

Their inner conflict is clear through both of their journeys and it’s clear that others can see that. They need help to be pulled in the right direction and reminded that they’re not the person they think they are. Yara comes for Theon when everyone else has given up on him. He’s her brother and regardless of what he’s done she still cares for him and believes in him. However, even the love of his sister can’t persuade him or break the abusive turmoil he’s been suffering and he stays with Ramsay as Reek.

Then Sansa comes, someone he has grown up with and cares for. She learns the truth that he didn’t kill Bran and Rickon. She knows who Theon really is and she brings him back, she needs him back and gives him the strength to do it.

Similarly, we see Han trying to bring Ben back in TFA, and like with Yara and Theon, it doesn’t work. He believes Ben is dead, that his family gave up on him and he did too so he can only be Kylo now. And as we see later on, the act of killing Han only made it worse and caused a deeper pain and regret to Ben as well as the conflict on where he lies in the force. In TLJ we see this and how Kylo seems to be chipping away from coming to terms with everything he’s done.

(I would also like to point out that in TLJ Ben couldn’t kill his mother and it’s stated that had he noticed quick enough he would’ve stopped the blasters from hitting the bridge) He gets a connection with Rey, who at first wants nothing to do with him and sees him as the monster he thinks he is. But similarly to Sansa, she finds out the story Luke told her about him destroying the Jedi Temple was a lie and from then on they’re able to console in one another and understand the pain and isolation they’ve both felt their whole lives.

When Luke refuses to go back and help Rey and the resistance she takes it upon herself to go and fight to bring Ben back to the light because she can see that he’s still there.

Taking a stand against their abusers, specifically to help save someone they love:

They both go against their abusers and take a huge leap towards taking back their true selves. Theon wants to help Sansa and she gives him a few chances too, for example with the candle but he ends up telling Ramsay. However when Ramsay is gone Sansa is crossed by Miranda and even though he’s still filled with fear and conflict, he throws Miranda off the ledge to save Sansa and finally defies his tormentor and everything that he’s done.

Kylo retrieves Rey when she lands on the capital ship and takes her to see Snoke. In the elevator they both state how they’ve had a vision of seeing them by each other’s sides. Kylo takes it as Rey joining him in the dark but Rey sees it as him reclaiming who he was supposed to be and even refers to him as Ben which he responds to.

(for the majority of knowing him she called him Kylo, monster, etc but since they touched hands and she saw the conflict she now sees him as a real person and more importantly Ben) Snoke wants Kylo to kill her in order to reach is full potential since killing Han only made him question the path he was going down even more. However, he tricks Snoke and instead kills him instead of Rey, destroying his abuser and saving Rey who is the only one he’s ever been able to connect to.

Reclaiming their identity:

Even though they have someone in their corner, believing in them and helping them to come back to who they are, it takes time. Theon stays with Sansa until they cross paths with Brienne and Podrick and knows she’ll be safe with them. He then heads back to the Iron Islands to join Yara and help her however he can. He still feels as though he’s Reek and doesn’t deserve any redemption or to be trusted/loved.

Overtime those who still believe in him and given time to heal he reclaims himself as Theon Greyjoy, not even the one from before, but a better and stronger man because it’s who he chooses and wants to be. He saves Yara from Euron and goes back to Winterfell to help fight against the dead. He protects Bran at the Weirwood tree bringing it back and trying to rewrite his wrong when he took Winterfell from Bran and caused him to abandon his home. Even though Arya is the one to ultimately save Bran by killing the Night King, she wouldn’t have been able to without Theon and his sacrifice.

Now Kylo’s is a little different and his journey back to Ben takes a few more steps. Killing Snoke was supposed to be him reclaiming himself and finally getting rid of the demons that have been haunting him his entire life. But now we’re aware that Palpatine created Snoke and was the one who has been in his head the whole time so really those voices are still there, abusing and tormenting him to do what they want. Except now he has something more to fight for. He knows Rey believes in him and they have a bond, a force dyad, that hasn’t been seen for centuries. We don’t get to see much of how Supreme Leader Kylo Ren deals with First Order affairs but I would assume it would be different from how Snoke handled it considering (as stated earlier) Kylo tried to get what they needed in the easiest way, preventing as much unnecessary harm or death. (I also would like to point out that at the beginning of TROS we see Kylo in Mustafar and all of the people he’s killing are Vader cultists so they were bad beings) He then travels to Palpatine who reveals it’s been him all along in his head and Kylo threatens to kill him, but then palp shows his army he’s been creating, how it could be Kylo’s, and reveals who Rey truly is. Palp wants him to kill her and he tricks him into thinking he will when really he chases her around to tell her this information as well as see if it’s true and to prevent her from getting killed. They fight a lot but it’s always Rey initiating it and Ben defending himself when he needs to. He gets distracted during one of their fights because Leia is reaching out to him and in the process, Rey stabs him with his own lightsaber (death of Kylo Ren) but ends up healing him and tells him that she did want him, the real him

He then has a vision of Han and basically reenacts what happened in TFA but has it play out how he wished it did the first time. He is now truly Ben Solo and goes to Exogal to help Rey and defeat Palpatine. After Rey kills Palpatine she dies and Ben comes back (he was thrown down deep pit) and transfers his life force to her to save her. Like the situation with Theon, if Ben wasn’t there Rey wouldn’t have been able to defeat Palpatine and save the galaxy.

Only got to live in peace with themselves for like 2 minutes:

They both get complex, intriguing, and beautiful arcs of redemption that represent realistic struggles of life and grey morality that people face throughout their lives. But they both end with a terrible message that the only way to fully redeem yourself from past mistakes, bad decisions (even if it was influenced by a life of mental/physical abuse) is to sacrifice yourself.

Theon sacrificed himself to save Bran and the fate of Westeros and was only able to be at peace with himself for about the last 20 seconds of his life because Bran forgave him, told him he was a good man and confirmed the type of person Theon really is and always wanted to be.

he deserved to feel this way for a MUCH longer time and continue to heal and grow and live a life that gave him much more peace and happiness (preferably with Sansa 😏) but instead he only gets to feel good about himself for the first time in his life and have it only last for a moment.

Once Rey defeated Palpatine it’s safe to say that the voices stopped in Ben’s head. There’s no more tormenting, persuading, or taunting. He climbs out of the pit to find Rey dead (his literal other half) and channels the rest of his energy to bring her back and it works. Similar to Bran, Rey confirms her joy and acceptance of Ben being back

and he would’ve been fully content with that, but Rey kisses him and he smiles for the first fucking time we’ve ever seen. His mind is at peace, Rey is alive in his arms and for the first time he is truly happy. And then he DIES.

Who knows what would’ve happened to him and how the resistance would’ve reacted, but he deserved the opportunity to atone for the mistakes he made, live life with a clear mind, as well as continue to be the other half of Rey that brought balance to the force and galaxy.

Bonus:

They both deserve to be with the only person that fully understands them and their pain and can grow, heal, and live in peace together.

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