Transcript Episode 72: What If Linguistics - Absurd hypothetical questions with Randall Munroe of xkcd
This is a transcript for Lingthusiasm episode ‘What If Linguistics - Absurd hypothetical questions with Randall Munroe of xkcd’. It’s been lightly edited for readability. Listen to the episode here or wherever you get your podcasts. Links to studies mentioned and further reading can be found on the episode show notes page.
[Music]
Gretchen: Welcome to Lingthusiasm, a podcast that’s enthusiastic about linguistics! I’m Gretchen McCulloch.
Lauren: I’m Lauren Gawne. Today, we’re getting enthusiastic about absurd, hypothetical linguistics questions. But first, our most recent bonus episode was a chat about the design of IPA charts and how the International Phonetic Alphabet is arranged.
Gretchen: We talked to Lingthusiasm’s resident artist, Lucy Maddox, about designing a different take on the IPA chart that is gonna be available for you on posters and lens cleaning cloths and various other items.
Lauren: Those lens cleaning cloths are a special offer for our patrons, so head to patreon.com/lingthusiasm by October 5th to participate in that special offer.
[Music]
Lauren: Gretchen, I’ve been reading What If? 2 by Randall Munroe, who does xkcd, and I’m delighted there are a couple of linguistics-related chapters in that book.
Gretchen: There’s this fun one about how long it would take to read all of the laws, which it seems like a massive task.
Lauren: Including a fun digression as to whether a Poké Ball is an egg.
Gretchen: This very much reminds me of the is-a-hotdog-a-sandwich type question.
Lauren: Hmm, legal minds will debate, I’m sure. If only there was more linguistics content in that book, though.
Gretchen: Well, you know, Lauren, as it happens, I have Randall Munroe right here. He has some linguistics questions to ask us as if we were starring characters in What If? 2.
Lauren: Amazing. Welcome, Randall!
Randall: Hi! Thanks so much for having me on. I know I’ve met you, Gretchen, in the outside world, but it’s really exciting to meet you here for real inside this podcast.
Gretchen: Welcome to Lingthusiasm headquarters, as it were.
Lauren: We are delighted to answer your hypothetical linguistics questions.
Randall: There’re a lot of things that’ve confused me about language. English has some weird features. I was wondering, if I’m in a government hearing after this where they’re questioning me, and if they ask me, "Are you now or have you ever been a guest on Lingthusiasm?”–
Gretchen: To which you would have to answer, “Yes,” at this point.
Randall: Right. But my question is why the awkward repetition? Like, why does English make us specify whether the thing happened now or in the past? Why can’t they just say, “Are you/were you a guest on Lingthusiasm”?
Gretchen: I mean, there’re definitely some languages that do things like this. In Chinese, for example, you don’t have to specify the time in a statement. You can say the time, but you don’t have to say it, which is one of the parameters on which language varies, but the specific legal question also has stuff going on in it.
Lauren: It’s partly because legalese is a technical variety of English, but it doesn’t always just use technical vocabulary that makes it seem opaque. It also uses everyday words in a way that have really technical and specific meanings. Some of that is because legalese is about this process of building laws on top of each other and historically layering them. So, a word that has a really common meaning in general develops this really specific meaning in the legal context.
Gretchen: I also think it’s because lawyers have this very pedantic approach to language and looking at every single comma and potential for ambiguity. Because in realistic language we tolerate a lot of ambiguity, and we figure it out from context. But the whole thing with laws and trying to get it exactly on your side is not really allowing space for context and trying to pin everything down really precisely.
Randall: Well, I was thinking about it. If I wanted to create that ambiguity – like, if I wanted to ask, “Are you in Nova Scotia now, or have you been there in the past?” – how would I do that? I couldn’t figure it out.
Gretchen: I think in ordinary English you might just ask one version of the question – “Have you ever been to Nova Scotia?” “Have you ever been on Lingthusiasm?” And then someone would just answer that with a “Yes, in fact, I am there right now.”
Lauren: We’re trying to be helpful to each other in conversation in a way that law doesn’t necessarily start from the same premise of being helpful. It’s starting from the premise of being complete.
Gretchen: And starting from the premise of being, actually, kind of antagonistic.
Lauren: Deliberately unhelpful.
Gretchen: It’s like an adversarial approach to language rather than the cooperative approach we normally have.
Randall: That makes sense – making it clear from context that you are asking about both the past and present even if you’re only specifically referring to one of them.
Gretchen: Yeah. Because if I say like, “Have you ever been interested in linguistics?” “Yes, I still am.” Like, it’s still sort of true, but in this legal sense you might be like, “No, it’s not that I was before, it’s that I am now.” It’s just sort of trying to catch people out in being incredibly pedantic.
Randall: If you wanted to add a way in English to make that explicitly ambiguous – like if I wanted a way to say, “You something something Lingthusiasm guest” – is there a natural structure that you would add if you were in charge of revising English?
Gretchen: Well, I mean, one option you could do – so English technically has only two tenses, past and non-past. Because you can say something like, “Tomorrow I go to the airport, and I fly to this place.” So, you can use what’s often called the “present” to refer to future events. If non-past is the more versatile English tense, you could just make a special rule that’s like, you don’t change it. I think probably the most realistic English way would be to try to add an auxiliary. So, the future in English is often formed with “will” or “gonna.” You could have a new one of those. Like, “Are you sort of Lingthusiasm guest?”
Randall: Or like, “You ever a Lingthusiasm guest?” Yeah.
Gretchen: Yeah. You could maybe use “ever” into – like dropping the verb would help. Entirely. Or making some new version of “would” or “sort of” or something.
Lauren: Just a new, tense-less version of English.
Gretchen: Just delete all the tenses in general.
Lauren: I feel like that would keep the lawyers even busier.
Randall: I’m curious about the sounds of English. I know there’re some sounds that are merging together, like the distinction between “caught” and “cot” in some dialects. Are there any sounds or phonemes that are currently in the process of coming into English or disappearing from it entirely?
Lauren: There’s one that is disappearing and becoming a ghost before our very ears, which has millennia of history, which is what is known as the “wine/whine” merger.
Gretchen: The /waɪn-hwaɪn/ merger.
Lauren: That W-H /w/ that is pronounced by some older speakers or speakers of very fancy registers like RP as /hw/ – so /hwɪt͡ʃ/, “Having a bit of /hwaɪn/ over my /waɪn/.”
Gretchen: As you can hear from both me and Lauren, we both have the merger.
Lauren: We have absolutely merged these. They are indistinct for us. /wɪt͡ʃ/ and /hwɪt͡ʃ/ is a very forced distinction I have to make. But for maybe, like, grandparent to great-grandparent generations at the moment, you do find it for some speakers which is a form of a sound that goes all the way back to Proto-Indo-European.
Randall: Wow. It made it all this time, and now, we’re the ones killing it off.
Lauren: We’re killing it off right now.
Randall: Wow!
Gretchen: It’s kind of neat because in Proto-Indo-European, there was a /kw/ sound – a sort of K-W – which in modern Romance languages has become Q-U but still pronounced /kw/ or /k/. This is like in “quando” or “quoi” or some of these words you might know from French or Spanish or Italian. All these words that have K in it became H in the Germanic set of words. You get things like “cornu-,” as in “cornucopia,” became “horn,” as in “horn of plenty.” There’s all these words that have a K sound – which is sometimes written with a C, sometimes with a Q – and those all became H. This is why we have all these words that begin with W-H – “Who, what, where, when, why” and the exceptional “how.” Those are the same as the /kw/ words in those other languages because that K became an H. Then the H and the W swapped positions at some point because people decided they liked it better. Then, not quite the H stopped getting pronounced, but the H influenced the pronunciation of the W becoming /hw/ rather than – I don’t even know how you’d do it. Now, it’s just sort of merged back with that W that we have – /w/.
Lauren: It’s so widespread that the W-H set of question words in English are all /k/ words even in languages like Hindi and Nepali, which are over in the Indo-Aryan side of that language family. You get “kina”, “ko,” “kahile.”
Randall: Oh, so it’s really old.
Gretchen: That’s why that H is there even though most people don’t pronounce it. I think you’re more likely to get sounds enter one variety of English, or disappear from one variety of English, and then that change spreads for a long time, and it takes a while to get to all of them.
Lauren: You still occasionally find “wine” and “whine” as distinct, or more often, you find it distinct in Scotland, a lot of Ireland, and apparently older speakers in New Zealand have been slower than Australians and Canadians and Brits in dropping this.
Randall: That makes sense. I know a few people who have that distinction, too, but like you said, it does tend to be older people. Although, I always find it funny. I always answered those dialect quizzes saying that I pronounced C-O-T and C-A-U-G-H-T the same. Then I was describing this merger to someone, and they said, “No, you don’t. Say it in a sentence.” I said it out loud, and I realised I am inside me. I didn’t hear how it sounded from the outside.
Gretchen: Okay. Say the words.
Randall: Like, “I /kɑt/ him sleeping on the /kat/.” “I /kɑt/ him sleeping on the /kat/.”
Gretchen: Oh, you absolutely say those differently.
Lauren: They are very different.
Gretchen: I would say, “I /kat/ him sleeping on the /kat/.”
Randall: I was born in that pocket of Pennsylvania where, when I looked on those dialect maps, that area is one of the unmerged areas.
Gretchen: And all of these sorts of splits – like dropped “for whom” or added “for whom.” Indian English has a bunch of retroflex sounds. All their Ts and Ds are produced with the tongue curled back onto the tip of the mouth. That’s entered one variety of English, but it seems probably unlikely it will spread to all of the other varieties, but who knows.
Lauren: One can hope. Because I would love to be able to distinguish between a retroflex and a non-retroflex. Too late for the plasticity of my phonemic inventory, but for future Englishes, it could be exciting.
Gretchen: They’re cool sounds.
Randall: Can you practice the sound enough that you can convincingly convey it to other people who then learn it from you? And then it becomes natural for them?
Lauren: Deliberately raise a family of people who have these distinctions.
Gretchen: I mean, I’ve always thought it would be cool to come up with some sort of, I dunno, conlang or something you could teach a kid or some sort of array of here’s, like, three languages you could teach a kid that would give them the maximal number of phonemic distinctions based on those languages. Because Germanic languages actually have tons of vowels cross-linguistically. A lot of languages have five vowels or three vowels or maybe seven, and English has fourteen-ish, depending on the dialect. German, I think Norwegian, Dutch, also, all the Germanic languages have tons of vowels. It would be like, okay, you wanna include one Germanic language for the vowels, and then you want a language that has tons of consonants like maybe Ubykh.
Lauren: Something around the Caucasus, for sure.
Gretchen: Something around the Caucasus for consonants. And then maybe a language with lots of tones – like Cantonese has more tones than Mandarin, so maybe give them Cantonese so they get tone. Then you have this nice array of this will make it easier for you to learn any other language because you’ve got most of the major sound distinctions.
Lauren: It’s also really good because you also have a really good spread of a language that’s isolating and doesn’t have a lot of morphology through to one with middling – English is very underwhelmingly average – and then those Caucasian languages do tend to have really good morphology, so it would be typologically satisfying on multiple fronts.
Gretchen: Yeah. So, raise your kid to be Cantonese-Ubykh-English trilingual, and they’ll be all set for their future language learning.
Lauren: [Laughs] I think we’ve said everything un-useful to say about that question.
Gretchen: [Laughs]
Randall: Say we’re playing a game. I’m gonna pick a random North American English speaker and ask them a spoken or written usage question. Like, “How would you say this?” “How do you pronounce this?” “How do you write this?” Now, you get to pick someone else to ask them same question to without knowing what it’s gonna be. If your person gives the same answer as my person, then you win. Now, who would you pick if you wanted the best chance of matching a random person? Would you pick, like, a news anchor, a kid, or a nondescript middle-aged person, or like a writer or something?
Lauren: I think I have an answer. Gretchen, who would you pick?
Gretchen: I think this is really complicated because I wanna know what’s the spoken or written usage question that you’re asking them because I think it would depend what are the parameters this varies on. Because if it’s an age-based usage question that I’m asking, then I wanna pick based on age, but if maybe it’s geography that’s more relevant or urban status – I think you’d probably want somebody in a mid-sized city because language change tends to happen faster in urban centres and slower in rural areas. You wanna split the difference. But not one of the mid-sized cities that has distinctive stuff going on. Like, Pittsburgh has got a whole bunch of stuff that’s been documented for it. So, yeah, I’m like, what are you gonna do for gender? I guess you sort of want somebody who’s around the middle for a lot of statistics, sort of middling in age – not too old, not too young – middling in terms of city. I dunno. Lauren, do you have a more specific answer?
Lauren: Oh, yeah, I’d pick a lexicographer. [Laughter]
Randall: And you’d tell them what the game is?
Lauren: Well, I think because of all of the people who have to think about and understand language usage, I always find lexicographers have a really solid appreciation for what is in the mind of the average language user. They’d be the first group of people that come to mind for me. I guess we want someone who’s at the intersection of being a lexicographer and all of those demographic details that Gretchen was suggesting.
Gretchen: I mean, I think that’s probably Kory Stamper, right, because she’s one of the youngest lexicographers. But “young” for lexicographer is like, I dunno, probably 40s. I think she lives in a mid-size American city.
Lauren: Okay, our answer is Kory Stamper. Done.
Gretchen: There we go.
Randall: Nice. You know, Gretchen, I realised as you were answering that, there was a project in a Midwestern newspaper ran a contest to try to find the most average person in the country. They did exactly the procedure you’re describing where they picked a city that was the most mid-size that was in the middle on a whole bunch of variables, and then they had the town vote on who the most representative average person in the town was. They picked this one guy. He owned a hat store, I think. Then they were like, “We found America’s average man.” Then they took him around to show him a bunch of stuff and get the average man’s opinion on this and that.
Gretchen: Sort of proto-Joe-the-plumber experience.
Lauren: It must be really good to track down the most average person because they must be a wealth of marketing insights.
Gretchen: Well, I was also trying to answer the question for gender because you can sort of pick an average age, you can pick an average location, but for gender, I do actually think that there might be benefits in choosing a non-binary person, not necessarily because non-binary is the average of men and women, but there was a really interesting study by Chantal Gratton on how non-binary people talk in different types of circumstances and how they can adopt features that are associated with multiple genders from that axis. I think, again, if we’re looking for versatility, which is a reason for picking a lexicographer.
Lauren: If you’re a non-binary person working in lexicography –
Gretchen: We wanna hear from you.
Lauren: We’ve got a great game to play.
Gretchen: [Laughs]
Randall: So, if I say, “It’s 3:00 p.m. and hot out,” what is “it” in that sentence? Because the more I think about it, the more it hurts my head.
Gretchen: That’s a fun question because this “it” is doing something that’s, as you may have noticed, semantically meaningless. That’s not the same thing as “I ate it,” where “it” refers to maybe some cake, maybe an apple, a physical object that you can point to. The “it” in “It’s 3:00 p.m.,” “It’s hot,” “It’s raining” is just there because English really hates it when sentences don’t have a subject – like a real, physical subject that’s there that you’ve said even if it doesn’t mean anything. English is not okay with that.
Lauren: There’s lots of languages that will happily say something that would translate into English literally as “Is 3:00 p.m. Is hot.” Or “Is 3:00 p.m. and hot.” And therefore, there’s no “it” there. Because it’s not there for its meaning, it’s just there to fill this spot in a sentence, it doesn’t matter that it is filling the role for being 3:00 p.m. and hot. “It” is just there to tick a box. In fact, this is so odd in English and such a quirk of English that it has a name which is “dummy it.”
Randall: So, wait. You could attach that “it” both to the “3:00 p.m.” and to another verb. I could say, “It’s 3:00 p.m. and was eaten.”
Gretchen: I don’t think you can. [Laughter] Do you think that’s grammatical?
Randall: What just got eaten?
Gretchen: “It’s 3:00 p.m. and eaten” is like a Lewis Carroll story or something.
Lauren: The “it” being eaten is suddenly meaningful, and so it can’t coordinate as an empty dummy it and a meaningful-subject it.
Gretchen: I think that’s actually a nice test because you can say, “It’s 3:00 p.m. and hot and raining,” and all of those are doing the same “it.” But when you start combining them – I mean, I guess if you say, “It’s hot and eaten,” now you’re just referring to a specific item and not the general state of affairs. Some people think the “it” in “It’s hot” or “It’s raining” refers to the weather or the sky. But we don’t generally go around saying, “The sky is raining.”
Randall: Well, now I’m gonna start.
Gretchen: I mean, you can change things.
Lauren: “It’s raining” is an interesting construction across languages because a lot of languages require you to say something like, “Rain is raining” or “Water is raining.” They don’t have that dummy construction. They’ve solved it in a different way.
Gretchen: I should say this is the dummy as in a dressmaker’s dummy or like a mannequin in a store window. It’s just propping up the clothes. You can think of this “it” as propping up the rest of the sentence.
Lauren: I also like to think of it as because English is so stressed about not having a subject, like a distressed baby, it needs a pacifier, and that’s why you give it a dummy.
Randall: Then I think “It’s 3:00 p.m. and eaten” is gonna stress out English just a little too much.
Gretchen: Yeah. If you want another piece of technical vocabulary, this construction like, “It’s 3:00 p.m. and eaten,” is known as zeugma. This is something like, “She put out the light and the cat.”
Randall: Oh, I like that.
Lauren: You like it, but the lawyers would be having a meltdown.
Gretchen: Let’s see if there are any other fun examples. “You held your breath and the door for me.” “I took the podium and my second trophy of the evening.” “The boy swallowed milk and kisses.” You can use it for multiple functions. But I think normally when zeugma works, it’s – I mean, you can do it in the abstract like “Put out the light and the cat” because one’s a figurative use and one’s a physical use. But I think, yeah, “It’s 3:00 p.m. and eaten” I have trouble with. It’s definitely deliberately playful. I don’t even know if it’s even ungrammatical. It’s deliberately playful.
Lauren: “What’s afternoon tea?” “It’s 3:00 p.m. and eaten.”
Randall: Yeah, it seems like there’s an omitted “at,” like, “It’s at 3:00 p.m. and ready.”
Lauren: It’s because “ready” is definitely more of an adjective, whereas “eaten” is a more nominalised-but-still-verb.
Gretchen: Yeah, I think “It’s at 3:00 p.m.” – that can refer to, like, the event is at 3:00 p.m. That’s changing it into a literal “it” again.
Randall: Well, and the reason I couldn’t say, “It’s 3:00 p.m., and I’m eating it,” is then you’re like, “It’s a different ‘it’.”
Gretchen: Yeah, each of them has its own subject, so that’s fine.
Randall: Yeah, and it’s like, “Oh, you didn’t say what he’s eating, but he’s eating it,” you know.
Gretchen: Yeah.
Randall: So, as I understand it, you can use the International Phonetic Alphabet to transcribe all the sounds that people use in language.
Lauren: Mm-hmm.
Randall: How you do you write a cough in IPA? I was looking through the chart, and I couldn’t figure out, is there a symbol that would go with that sound?
Lauren: A general, full-throated cough is not something that is specifically a speech sound in any human language, so there’s not a –
Gretchen: That we know of yet.
Lauren: That we know of yet or that someone has not created to raise their child to attempt to turn it into normal phonology. So, we don’t have a specific symbol for a cough in the standard International Phonetic Alphabet as set forward by the International Phonetic Association.
Gretchen: However, you have now unlocked – congratulations – the extended IPA.
Randall: I’ve never heard of the extended IPA.
Gretchen: I don’t think we’ve ever talked about it on an episode.
Lauren: Oh, how excellent!
Gretchen: This is yet more IPA for your fun and enjoyment.
Lauren: Also, for useful technical reasons.
Gretchen: Also, useful technical reasons.
Randall: Are you allowed to tell everyone about this? Or is this a secret held among linguists?
Gretchen: The classic IPA is devised for linguists to talk about sounds that are in the regular speech repertoire of spoken languages. The extended IPA is generally used by speech pathologists to transcribe other sounds that people sometimes make when they’re learning to or producing speech differently from how the typical user of their language does it.
Lauren: Speech pathology covers a really wide range. It could be anything from working with children who have lisps and stutters through to helping people post-stroke or with aphasia regain the ability to speak.
Gretchen: Some sounds – the one that’s really memorable for me is that they have gnashing of teeth in extIPA and also smacking lips and other types of whistled version of S, which I’m not gonna demonstrate because a.) I don’t think I can, and b.) it might be kind of painful if you’re on headphones. There’s also some sounds in extIPA that are, I think, very difficult to pronounce unless you have a cleft palate because they’re bringing the air through the palate in your mouth where most people don’t have a hole there or through your nose and mouth at the same time, if you have a cleft palate. That’s where I would look if I was looking for coughing because it seems like the kind of thing they might have done.
Randall: Okay. Do they have a whole new set of symbols, or is it mostly the Latin letters turned upside-down and stuff?
Lauren: There’s a lot of Latin letters turned upside-down or back-to-front. Or sometimes they’ll use something from the IPA with some additional diacritics and decoration.
Gretchen: Yeah, it’s a lot of diacritics. Like, things above and below the original letters. Unfortunately, it’s very unglamourous having hyped up the extIPA. There’s a whole section for unidentified or indeterminate sounds, which are a bunch of symbols in a circle. So, if you’re not sure what consonant is said, you can write C in a circle, which is kind of neat. But cough is written as – do you wanna get a pencil and write this down?
Randall: Okay.
Gretchen: Open bracket, open bracket, “cough,” close bracket, close bracket. [Laughter]
Randall: All right. I guess we’ve already got a way to write that.
Gretchen: I wish there was some sort of more interesting symbol. But there is this whole thing. They use music notation for loud speech and soft speech. They have “forte” and “pianissimo” and these sorts of things.
Lauren: This is outside of the extIPA, but if you want a linguist-approved convention for writing laughter in a conversation analysis, they use the @ sign.
Gretchen: Oh, that’s true.
Lauren: I do have a handful of friends who will text me with “@@@” instead of “lol.”
Gretchen: Amazing.
Lauren: It’s handy.
Randall: That reminds me of a comics problem which is, as far as I know, there’s no good written onomatopoeia or sound effect for the sound of applause. So, if you wanna show applause offscreen – off-panel in a comic – if there was an explosion, you would write, “boom,” you know.
Gretchen: Or “bang” or something.
Randall: There’re sounds for splashing – like “psh.” But there’s nothing for the sound of applauding. I don’t even know how to suggest it. Usually what cartoonists do is cheat, and they’ll write, “woo,” to imply people cheering.
Lauren: As someone who studies language and gesture, I don’t think that’s cheating. I think that’s cooping the multimodality of human expression to advantage in a graphic novel format.
Randall: The other thing you’ll sometimes see is people will just write, “clap clap clap clap.” So, it’s not cheating. It’s, you know, one of the many ways you can use language. But I feel like it would be so helpful if there were some way to write that sound. Since you’re both linguists, can you make one? [Gretchen laughs] How would you represent that? Like, okay, if “@@@” is laughing?
Lauren: Representing a sound as a conventionalised spoken form is onomatopoeia. Some languages do this kind of thing far more frequently and more conventionally than English does. We might want to take a look at a language that does that. I think Japanese is one of those languages that has a lot of ideophones and onomatopoeia.
Gretchen: Japanese does this a ton. The Japanese ideophone, onomatopoeia, for clapping is “pachi pachi.”
Randall: “Pachi pachi.” That seems about right.
Gretchen: Yeah, it seems about right. But the fun thing is also that “pachi” can also refer to the number eight in Japanese, which is more commonly “hachi,” but it can also be “pachi.” If you’re texting or you’re on social media, and you wanna indicate applause or clapping, you can also write a bunch of eights. At least Japanese speakers will know what you mean by that. I mean, I guess there’s also the emoji these days. People do that as well.
Lauren: The emoji does have those little action lines. But to get those action lines into English, we just made a big deal about Japanese having this onomatopoeic form, but I think “clap” is also a form of onomatopoeia. We just don’t look at it that way.
Randall: Huh, “clap.”
Gretchen: Oh, no, wait. So, the etymology of “clap.”
Randall: I’ve never been on tenterhooks waiting for an Etymonline definition.
Gretchen: Yeah. So, the Etymonline entry for “clap” has “a common Germanic echoic verb,” which is also found in Old Frisian, Old High German, Old Saxon “klapunga,” and it – yeah, “unknown origin, probably onomatopoeic.”
Lauren: I think the obvious thing to do is to put “clap clap clap,” footnote, down the bottom of the comic, because good comics should have footnotes, you just link to the Etymonline entry. Everyone’s happy. [Laughter]
Randall: Yes, oh man.
Gretchen: The answer was inside you all along.
Randall: It’s like you start saying “clap” so fast that you stumble over the sounds, and there you’ve got it.
Gretchen: From a physical, articulatory perspective, you’re sort of doing a teeny-tiny clap with your tongue, inside your mouth, against the rest of your mouth.
Randall: Yeah. I mean, because, well, the /k/ is the clapping at the back, and then the /p/ is the front, and the /l/ is the labiodental –
Gretchen: It’s a lateral.
Lauren: Your whole mouth is clapping.
Randall: Yeah.
Gretchen: Three or four different parts of your tongue are all doing little taps against the roof of your mouth.
Randall: Your whole mouth is applauding. That is so cool. Okay. Thank you for that.
Gretchen: You’re very welcome.
Randall: This might be almost a question for a singer, but you mentioned these sounds that are outside the speech register. What’s up with the piercing sound of a horror movie scream? Is that falsetto? Is that a normal speech sound but louder? Or is that your throat doing something weird?
Gretchen: There’s a great paper about screaming, which is brilliantly titled, “Human Screams Occupy a Privileged Niche in the Communication Soundscape,” which I think begins to answer your question. It suggests that screams are universal and acoustically unique so that they’ll alert us to danger and ensure, and I quote, “biological and ultimately social efficiency.” I guess the hope being that, like, if someone’s screaming, even if you don’t speak their language, you can still tell this is a human distress signal. We normally write a scream from an onomatopoeia perspective as “Aaahhhhhh!” with a lot of As and maybe Hs because /a/ is the most open of the vowels. The Jaw is just fully dropped. It’s the least restricted. If you tried to scream something like, “Eeeeeee!”, you’d have to have your mouth be a lot more closed.
Randall: Yeah, you never write I-I-I-I-I.
Lauren: I guess that’s why the /i/ in “shriek” is trying to – because it’s closed, but it also then tends to correlate with perceptually higher-pitched things. That’s trying to give you that perception of it being really high-pitched, which /a/ doesn’t necessarily do.
Lauren: Yes. Because some comics will do A-I-E-E-E-E-E, like “Aieeeee!”
Lauren: Trying to get the best of both.
Gretchen: Yeah. Trying to give the high-pitched-ness of it. The other thing about this paper is that it says that screams are “acoustically well segregated from other communication signals,” as in, they’re higher-pitched than other communication signals, and that this is also partly to avoid false alarms. Because, like, imagine if a third of your words just had the scream bit in them, and then you’d kind of be like the “boy who cries wolf” of like, “Oh, well, if you’re screaming all the time, nothing’s ever urgent.”
Randall: You know what. There are a few animals that make sounds that I think are in that scream register because people get freaked out by them. I think foxes and then elk do a weird noise.
Gretchen: There’s some animals that make sounds like crying babies, which I dunno if that’s also in the same range, but the scream cluster is in 30-150 Hz. So, animals – probably some of them are in that range, and you could measure that. And that there’s also a perceptual attribute called “roughness” that screams tend to have. I really don’t wanna demonstrate a scream and really freak people out listening to the podcast, but if you think about your latest horror movie scream style, it’s got this sort of back-and-forth modulation, that sort of roughness.
Randall: I’m curious – it was interesting to realise that I learned from you about how emojis, a lot of them represent gestures, and how some of them are things we have words for, but some of them aren’t. What are some gestures that people do without realising this is a type of communication or without having a word for it?
Lauren: I’m gonna tell you the answer. But once I do, you will never unsee this. I just have to prepare you for that fact. There is something that everyone who gestures does all the time. It has a specific technical name. That is the repetition in a gesture to indicate duration or emphasis. This kind of repetition is known as a “beat” gesture. You will absolutely see it in the most clearest manifestation if you watch a politician give a speech because they love to use them to give a sense of coherence to what they’re saying. It’s this magic thing. If you’re giving a speech, here’s a pro tip. You can use beat gestures. If you continue to use the same repetition on your stressed syllables – I’m doing it now, but you can’t see it.
Gretchen: Lauren, I feel like you’re really emphasising the beat gestures in a very auditory way.
Lauren: I’m emphasising the beat gestures auditorily. But if you continue to do this gesture repetition, you can actually give the sense that everything you’re saying alongside those gestures is the same topic or it’s coherent even though it may not actually be so.
Randall: Huh. So, this is like when you’re shaking your hand up and down as you talk, and the up and down motion goes with the syllables, and then suddenly, when you do that, I have this urge to vote for you.
Gretchen: Vote for Lauren. She can’t be beat.
Lauren: [Laughs] There’s my slogan. So, you can combine it with a thumbs up if you wanna be like, “That was a really great job,” or a pointing gesture. It combines with other gestures. That’s part of why you see it everywhere. But sometimes, a person’s hands won’t be indicating, like, a pointing gesture, or they won’t be giving any information about the size or the shape of something. They’re just doing this repetition. The analogy in emoji is that we use a lot of repetition in our emoji to do the same kind of emphasis or duration – so a string of clapping hands to show applause in emoji or a string of hearts to say, “I really love that idea.”
Randall: Is it true that if you make someone hold their hands still when they’re talking, they’re less coherent or have a harder time forming sentences? I feel like I heard that somewhere.
Lauren: The general suggestion is yes. I think we’ve talked about it before, and I’ve said that’s the case. I’ve been returning to this literature and will probably revisit it in an episode, but it turns out that there is a lot of variation in what people mean when they say that they’ve stopped people from gesturing. And so, there’s a lot of variation in just how much it really does change how people speak. Possibly, sometimes it’s just because they come up with these really fantastically bizarre experiments.
Gretchen: There’s some where they tie them down so they can’t gesture, right. Maybe being tied down is a bit distracting.
Lauren: Oh, yeah, there are some fascinating study designs.
Randall: I mean, any time you have to have anyone do anything in an MRI, their circumstances are not gonna be natural. Well, what you really need to do is just raise someone in, like, have all the furniture in their house to be shaped like an MRI.
Gretchen: And then they’d be totally comfortable with it.
Randall: So, they go to sleep, and it’s in an MRI. And their couch where they watch TV is an MRI.
Lauren: Adding it to my long list of study design ideas that are terrible. A lot in this area are fascinatingly bad.
Randall: So, a lot of the time, I’ll read fiction or watch a movie where there’s a fictional language. If I come across a sample of a language, and I’m trying to figure out, “Is this a real, natural human language, or is it something that was created by a language enthusiast to seem real,” if you were hired as detectives to try to figure it out, what do you look for? What would be the hallmarks of an invented language?
Gretchen: This sounds like a great linguist job.
Randall: What would be the hallmarks that give away, you know, it’s someone who’s trying to make it seem like a natural language. If you were trying to figure out if you’re looking at a real language or one by someone who’s trying to fool you, what would you look for?
Lauren: I would go straight to trying to find the irregularities. If there are no irregularities, that’s an immediate sign that you have something that is too neat to have been slowly evolved collectively as a communal agreement by a collection of speakers.
Gretchen: Especially if there’re some people who do this and some people that do that. Because one of the things with artificial languages is they’ll tend to make one language. But as we were talking about with “wine” and “whine,” or trying to find the averagest English speaker, everyone’s slightly different with the language. If you don’t have any of that representation of “Different people are doing this slightly differently, and we don’t fully know exactly how all of this stuff works, but here’s a bunch of ways that it could be” –
Lauren: I think I would go, probably, straight to the pronoun system or how they do copulas – so in English “is, are, be, am” are all copula verbs, but they’re all a bit of a hot mess because, over time, we’ve created this really unbalanced paradigm. Or we’ve taken two different verbs and turned them into the past and the present of the current one. Or with pronouns – we just borrowed “they” from one of the Scandinavian languages, and you can’t actually find a robust explanation for where “she” came from in the English paradigm. “I” and “me” are incredibly ill-balanced. If you have a completely neat, like, “I have all these pronouns, and they’re perfectly clear which one is ‘me’ and which one is ‘you’ and which one’s single and which one’s plural,” I’m like, ugh, that is suspiciously regular. And language is very good at being irregular in these high-use areas.
Gretchen: It’s like a house that no one lives in because it’s suspiciously tidy. I think also the high-use areas, like in a house that you live in, tend to have more irregularity going on. I think it’s the difference between a stair rail or something that’s been polished by generations of people walking by it and having their hand on it. Some areas will be smoother than others. It’s hard to get that patina of use without lots of people doing it.
Lauren: I find the best way to do that when I’m constructing languages for fictional worlds is just to bring a degree of absentmindedness to my work. I might just generate the pronoun paradigm twice, and then take the bits I like of both of them, but then randomly forget sometime and use another form so there’s one completely irregular one in there.
Randall: That makes sense. Now and then I see people complain about like, “Oh, this show is unrealistic because the characters pronounce this one character’s name two different ways.” Like in Star Wars, some of them say /han/ Solo and some of them say /hæn/ Solo. “That’s because they haven’t prepared well enough.”
Lauren: It’s just two different parts of the galaxy.
Randall: Yeah.
Gretchen: As somebody named Lauren /gan/ – or as you say it –
Lauren: Lauren /gɑn/.
Gretchen: Yes. People never pronounce real people’s names differently depending on their accent.
Lauren: People would never have a /gɑn/gan/ merger. That would be completely unrealistic for my co-host to use the incorrect vowel in pronouncing my name.
Gretchen: Because I don’t have your /gɑn/ vowel.
Lauren: So, yeah, that kind of irregularity. I do have to say, sometimes there is implausible irregularity. In Game of Thrones, I found it comedically implausible that every single member of Arya Stark’s family would pronounce her first name differently. But I can totally believe there is an entire galaxy where there are two different ways to pronounce /hɑn/ or /hæn/.
Randall: So, it’s like the difference between there being, oh, a couple of different accents – some people say this name this way, some people say /hɑn/, some people say /hæn/ – versus, like, these people have clearly not met Arya because they all say it differently.
Lauren: Her own family members don’t seem to know.
Gretchen: And the reasons are often motivated in some sort of factor. If you have characters – okay, people who are in this group do this; people who are in that group do this – but like, why do these characters who all grew up together in the same environment, why do they talk so differently if they all grew up together? Maybe there’s some sort of other reason, right? But what sort of factors are influencing how people are talking differently or like, “Oh, we just happened to hire a bunch of actors from different places. Whatever.” Sometimes, you get a show that does that sort of accent neutral casting or accent indifferent casting, but if you wanna create within-world story reasons for people – you know, “Oh, we’re gonna give all the good guys British accents.”
Lauren: Yeah, a bit of randomness and whimsy definitely helps bring a language to life.
Randall: That’s a really clever thing to look for. It’s nice to know that you could just be a little bit less fastidious and actually make it seem more real. Let’s just suppose, optimistically, that this podcast recording survives for 50 or 100 years. I always think it’s funny. We’re sitting here recording this at a specific time and place, but it’s gonna be listened to in the future. And we don’t actually know how far in the future. People will listen when it’s posted, but then it’ll sit around. I thought it would be fun, keeping in mind those people 50 or 100 years in the future that if we try to make guesses about features of English that seem unusual to us but will seem like normal usage to the listeners in 2072 or 2122, we could make our guesses about what we think usage is gonna look like. And then, in 100 years, the listeners can grade us on who got closest to correct. It’s like a contest. We wouldn’t get our scores for 100 years.
Gretchen: Please, if you’re listening to this in 100 years, you know, maybe human life expectancy will have gone up, and we’ll still be around.
Randall: Be sure to post this episode on the “intergalactic hollow-sphere.”
Gretchen: Share it with your friends via your brain implant. Okay.
Randall: Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and merge the podcast with your consciousness at the “galactic core.” [Laughter]
Gretchen: I actually have a suggestion that might even work on a shorter timeframe. We might be around in, say, 20 years or 30 years to hear the answers to some of these, which would be kind of exciting. One of the fastest changing areas of language is that there’s a new word for “cool” about every decade or so – sometimes less. I was writing another article where I had to project the future of English, and I thought, you know, if we go back, and we look at a list of words for “cool,” do they have any sort of features in common so we could predict what the new, cool word for “cool” might be? Some words for “cool” that may not be cool anymore, things like, “sick,” “hot,” “lit,” “rad,” “sweet,” “tight,” “nice,” “neat.” There’s also another subset like –
Randall: “Keen.”
Gretchen: “Keen,” “nifty,” “groovy.” Apart from “nifty” and “groovy,” which both have this /i/ sound at the end, all of these other words are very consonant-vowel-consonant from a pronunciation perspective. Sometimes with an extra consonant at the beginning or end. Sometimes, there’s two. Like, “sick,” “lit,” “rad,” “sweet,” “nice,” “neat,” they’ve all got these bookended consonants on either side. If we can come up with some other words that are monosyllables with consonants on either side, maybe one of these words will eventually turn into the word for “cool.” This would be the first time that I’ve ever been cool in my life. We can come up with some of them. I think the current word that “the kids” are using these days is “based,” which is the opposite of “cringe.” It’s like “based in fact,” sometimes used meta-ironically. Attributed to the rapper Lil B. I’m getting this from Urban Dictionary because, again, I don’t think we’re particularly cool here. I came up with some additional candidates. If you wish to contribute any, you also can, of words that have the right phonetic form that could turn into a word for “cool” maybe. But maybe there are more. They don’t have to mean something that sounds good, right. Because “sick” or something doesn’t sound good.
Lauren: Okay, what have you got?
Gretchen: So, “sop” seems like it’s got potential. “Numb.” I dunno, I just feel like “numb” could mean “cool.” “Left.” I dunno, maybe it’s kind of “out from left field” or sort of bizarre. As a left-handed person, I kind of like this one.
Lauren: I was gonna say, I feel like this is your left-handed affirmation coming through here.
Gretchen: Thank you. “Sunk.” I dunno, “sunk” could mean “cool.” These have got some good acoustics to them.
Randall: Oh, getting a new meaning for, like, the sunk cost fallacy becomes the sunk cost positive thing.
Gretchen: Yeah. Like, “Wow! That’s so sunk, man. I can’t believe it.”
Lauren: I have a very long bow to draw here. I don’t think I’m gonna win with this. But I would like to propose “whale,” as in the ocean-going mammal, because there are some people who still pronounce that as /hwɛɪl/, and then I’ll have a really obvious token to check if we fully reduce the wine/whine merger.
Gretchen: “/hwaʊ/ that’s so /hwɛɪl/ of you!”
Lauren: I just wanna make sure we have a lot of tokens for something that has a W-H pronunciation for some people to make sure that we’ve definitely closed that merger. Or it’s been de-merged.
Gretchen: Hmm. I mean, some people are using the Beowulf “hwaet” ironically now.
Lauren: Oh, yeah, maybe we could get that going.
Gretchen: Bring some of this stuff back.
Randall: Or, hey, this can be my opening. If America has finished merging “caught” and “cot,” then we could bring back “caught” to mean “cool.”
Gretchen: Oh, yeah, “That’s so cot of you.”
Randall: No, no, no, you got to unmerge it.
Gretchen: “That’s so /kɑt/ of you.”
Randall: You know, the weird thing is when you’re describing this, you’re using the word “cool” a lot. It strikes me that that word has hung on for a weirdly long time and means the same thing. There’re all these other synonyms that come and go, but that one – like, when I read old newspapers going back at least five or six decades – has basically the same connotation.
Gretchen: It’s interesting that “cool” retains its meaning as the meta-term for this category, whereas if I say something’s “groovy” now, I’m implying it’s dated. I’m not saying it’s still cool. I mean, like, I dunno if there’re gonna be more temperature words. I think that mine has been pretty much exhausted. I mean, unless you’re gonna start saying something’s “warm.” Like, “cool,” “chill,” “hot.”
Randall: “Tepid, man.”
Gretchen: I think that’s the wrong phonetic profile.
Lauren: Actually, “luke” fits. And it’s now only in the context of “lukewarm.”
Gretchen: Yeah, “That’s so luke.”
Lauren: Sorry Lukes out there.
Randall: I mean, if you’re going for the phonetic profile, I think “damp” fits.
Gretchen: “That’s so damp, man.”
Randall: No, wait, no, because, I mean, that’s very similar to “dank.”
Gretchen: That’s very similar to “dank,” yeah. “Dank” is already there.
Lauren: The things people can semantically shift when they set their minds to it are truly astounding.
Gretchen: You really can’t predict what’s gonna be in cool, but they do seem to have some sort of phonetic signature. If any of these words that we’ve mentioned turn into a word for “cool,” I definitely didn’t see “based” coming, so who knows.
Lauren: That would be very “whale.”
Gretchen: We get bragging rights. That would be very “whale.”
Randall: That was real “tepid” of you. Well, to put my stake in the ground, my prediction – when I was a little kid, you could tell if someone learned from reading because they would pronounce certain words ways that – like they’d say /dɛbɹɪs/ instead of /dɛbɹi/ because they hadn’t heard someone say it. They had read it. I feel like we’re conducting so much written communication now, I wonder if more of those will just become alternate, accepted pronunciations. So, like /dɛbɹɪs/, /fəkɛɪd/ instead of “façade.”
Gretchen: If you were me when I was a kid saying /sɛntɹɪfjʊgl̩/ instead of /sɛntɹɪfɪkl̩/.
Randall: Exactly. “Grand /fɪnal/.”
Gretchen: There’s one that’s already there which is “forte.”
Randall: Oh, yeah, I only just learned that I’ve been saying that one wrong.
Lauren: What would be a “non-forte” pronunciation of “forte”?
Gretchen: /foɹt/, I think, right, because it’s originally Italian. In Italian, it’s both spelled “forte” and pronounced “forte,” but a lot of people write it with an accent mark as if it was French, like “café” – or “resumé,” which gets written with the accent mark. You can understand why you’d wanna do this because the E there isn’t silent, but it’s not actually originally a French word.
Randall: Yes.
Gretchen: Yeah, I like that we had this pronunciation argument. This makes me feel much cooler than coming up with for words for “cool.”
Randall: Mispronunciation is my “forté.”
Lauren: I guess if you’re listening to this in 100 years from when it was released, email/contact @lingthusiasm to let us know which of us is closest. [Laughter]
[Music]
Lauren: For more Lingthusiasm and links to all the things mentioned in this episode, go to lingthusiasm.com. You can listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can follow @lingthusiasm on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Tumblr. You can get tree structure scarves, “Not Judging Your Grammar” notebooks, and kiki-bouba mugs, and other Lingthusiasm merch at lingthusiasm.com/merch. I tweet and blog as Superlinguo.
Gretchen: I can be found as @GretchenAMcC on Twitter, my blog is AllThingsLinguistic.com, and my book about internet language is called Because Internet. You can follow our guest, Randall Munroe, @xkcd on various social media sites. His new book is called What If? 2. Have you listened to all the Lingthusiasm episodes, and you wish there were more? You can get access to an extra Lingthusiasm episode to listen to every month plus our entire archive of bonus episodes to listen to right now at patreon.com/lingthusiasm or follow the links from our website. Have you gotten really into linguistics, and you wish you had more people to talk to about it? Patrons can also get access to our Discord chatroom to talk with other linguistics fans. Plus, all patrons help keep the show ad-free. Recent bonus topics include a chat about the design of the IPA chat and what it’s like to be in an MRI machine. Can’t afford to pledge? That’s okay, too. We also really appreciate it if you can recommend Lingthusiasm to anyone in your life who’s curious about language.
Gretchen: Lingthusiasm is created and produced by Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne. Our Senior Producer is Claire Gawne, our Editorial Producer is Sarah Dopierala, our Production Assistant is Martha Tsutsui-Billins, and our Production Manager is Liz McCullough. Our music is “Ancient City” by The Triangles.
Randall: Stay lingthusiastic!
[Music]
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
34 notes
·
View notes