#ace charlie discourse

[alymccart]

[Click image > right click > "open image in new tab" for higher res]

Alright, uh. Screw it. Let's dust off this account. I was embarrassed about even drawing this, and especially about sharing it publicly, but I'm slapping it up here. Why not. Been extremely burnt out lately, doing art professionally has pretty much killed my desire to do art for the sake of enjoying it (sorry, fans of my dead comic). Mental health has been shoddy. Actual health is eh, as well. I've been too busy to really think and have been so guilty about there being so much stuff to do in my life still that I haven't really afforded myself time to relax or unwind. My enthusiasm for anything has been in the dumps for years. I don't think I've drawn more than a handful of fanart pieces in over a decade (what you see on here is pretty much it), and I've certainly never drawn something like... this. Obviously, I watched Hazbin finally (didn't even realize the show was an actual thing now, though I did love the pilot eons ago; I don't tend to traverse into fandom discussion and discourse so I've been out of the loop). I'm actually nearing double-digit rewatches... and the OST has been on repeat for weeks. Well animated, beautifully written adult cartoons? I'm here for it. Musicals? Oh yeeahhhhh! A well animated, beautifully written adult cartoon that is also a musical??? *teakettle noises*

I'm ace as hell, but wholesome, loving, devoted relationships like this in fiction seem to hit me right at my core. I also cry at heartwarming videos and movies, but that's beside the point... I just... hrrrnnnnggg... Charlie and Vaggie's relationship has SENT ME. It has an iron grip on my soul and I cannot stop it. I feel like i'm 14 years old again. I want to write fanfiction. Is it 2004?? Where am I????? What the fffffasdfasfagghfgfjhdd????????!!!! Aannnyyyyywayyyy.... This art gave me stomach butterflies the entire time I worked on it, as well as an immense amount of joy, and I really hope this can maybe do that for others. And I still have... so many ideas........ so many....

[lovelybrooke]

Building off what I just posted about Alastor, I wanted to link to this post I made a while ago for people to read.

This is mainly because I don't want people to think this is something I only care about now, when in reality I've been talking about it for a while.

Also while I'm here I'll add on some things:

I've gotten asks saying that Viv only claimed Alastor was ace and not aro. The person who claimed he was aro was an ex employee. I want to acknowledge that, however my point still stands since a lot of people (myself included) view him as AroAce. However, either way, I should've done a little more research before posting that, and for that I apologize.

I also think a lot of people are focusing too much on the shipping aspect of my post, which wasn't my overall point, and I should've made that more clear. In reality, I was upset over the fact that people use "Asexuality and Aromanticism are spectrums" to excuse shipping characters that are heavily considered to be romance/sex repulsed. In my personal opinion, it comes off less as you trying to accurately represent a character, and more so you trying to justify putting them in heteronormative situations. Because of this, it seems like a lot of people only care about the fact that Aromanticism and Asexuality are spectrums when they can put them as close to allonormativity as possible without technically erasing their identity. It just comes off as weird and makes me uncomfortable, especially when the representation we have is already so limited.

I also want to acknowledge that most of the blame for this is on Viv herself rather than the fandom, since she doesn't really seem keen on confirming or denying his aromanticism. According to a few other post I've read, Viv in the past has refused to confirm if Alastor is Aromantic because she's afraid of backlash. I can't say for sure this is true, but honestly I would believe it since Alastor is a Tumblr sexy man and one of the few characters a lot of the female audience base think they can ship themselves with, which keeps him popular. This makes me upset since she doesn't shy away from confirming the sexuality of other characters, again like Angle Dust and Charlie, who I'm pretty sure she's confirmed are gay and bi (again I could be wrong). This comes off as her wanting to reap the rewards of having an aromantic character, without facing any of the backlash she'd know she'd get if she'd just confirm it.

I know the post hasn't been up for long, but I think I'm gonna delete it soon since I do want to write for Hazbin Hotel, and I really don't want people constantly coming to me with this discourse. So, I'll keep this up so people know, and I'll delete the post later.

[xuargent]

https://www.tumblr.com/taoelle/726653655552573440/im-so-sick-of-seeing-stupid-takes-in-the?source=share

Exactly! And all this "heartstopper is purity culture" discourse too, I'd bet this wouldn't have happened if the author wasn't aroace.

i haven't seen many people calling it 'purity culture' thank god, but i do remember some weird takes when s1 first came out abt how nick discovering he was bi was unrealistic bc there was 'no sexual aspect' (or smth?? i don't remember exactly) and like. yes teenagers do Think About Sex and my own teenage bi awakening did involve That, but people seem to miss that heartstopper is SPECIFICALLY written to have a 12 rating here in the uk so younger teens can access it and feel seen.

there's absolutely space in teen lgbt fiction for exploring sexual awakenings (see: a very large number of YA books that any teen can access in their local library), but that's not what heartstopper is. i think everyone's just gotten used to most teen shows being sex-obsessed that they think it should be in every show when... to be honest from my own experience in a british secondary school the amount of people actually having sex was very low, and (newsflash) not all teens actually think about sex all that much!! and i don't just mean ace people, some just genuinely aren't all that bothered at that age.

and yes, as you've said, alice being aroace is definitely an aspect of people's bullshit takes, not to mention a lot of people saying this shit would have their arguments disproven if they read the comics (see: the entire arc that just took place abt nick and charlie wanting to have sex but both having different hangups abt it). i also feel like shows seen as 'wholesome' queer rep are the ones always criticised the most, and people feel the need to nitpick every single tiny aspect and say "uhm this was bad actually!!" which fine. you can have your own opinion, but it does seem suspect this always happens when a show with multiple, unapologetically queer characters becomes mainstream.

there've also been a lot of people blasting heartstopper for being 'cringe' (which i've talked abt already so i won't repeat myself), and i think this links to a lot of the takes i've been seeing. it seems to be a trend online to not be allowed to just dislike something, you have to justify disliking it by saying it's actually Immoral and Harmful and Bad Rep, the latter of which especially relies on personal experiences and can't be universally applied. when the lgbtq+ experience is so wide, the validity of 'rep' isn't a something we can universally agree on.

anyway, sorry your ask turned into an entire essay, i just have a lot of strong feelings about this show as someone who's been a fan of the comics for years and sees myself in a lot of the characters.

[gipzisays209]

Eh, fuck it. Might as well do the obligatory "Make an about-me post and pin it so everybody knows who they're dealing with".

Hi! I'm Gipzi. I'm an 18-year-old guy dragon on the Internet, proudly Ace, Panromantic and Poly, who happens to host a few other fuckers due to life shit going funky.

I.e. I'm a proud Dragonkin, and also a Mixed Origin system known as the Mirrored System, and we use the Greek Delta (∆) as a system tag (regardless of any potential insinuations Delta may have, we just went with it.)

This is my main blog, usually just reblogging shit with my own personal spin on things added. I DO ENGAGE IN DISCOURSE ON THIS BLOG, SO DO BE WARNED!

A few side notes about me, Gipzi (the host):

- I'm an artist, a gamer, a writer and a very big tech nerd. Can and will use a screwdriver for the hell of it.

- I am also a scalie! No surprise there, heh

- OPINIONS ARE MY OWN! I have a very dark sense of humor, and can and will make off-the-wall jokes and swear. It's all in good faith, and if I accidentally offend, please let me know so I can apologize and/or clarify!

- I am a witch! Been practicing ever since around July of this past summer, and that's how I met Charlie, fucker #1 (again)!

Void is fucker #2, formed from a stressful situation, Dark is fucker #3 and Senegone is fucker #4, the most recent of us.

For a more detailed introduction into me, Gipzi, us as The Mirrored System, and just general insights, please check out my Carrd!

[1llusionmachine]

When you get this, reply with your favourite five fics that you’ve written, then pass on to at least five other writers. Let’s spread the self-love.

I'm late as always but finally did it! Thank you @glorious-blackout 🥰🥰 I don't often appreciate my own fics because they're all relatively short oneshots and not epic masterpieces like so many wonderful writers on here, but it's all about self-love!

FYI: Fics are linked in the titles if you fancy a read 😁

1. Charlie and Dee: Quarantine Duo

"Frank kicked you out, didn't he?"

"Frank kicked me out."

AKA: Life with Dee and Charlie when they 'bubbled' together in 2020.

I'm really proud of this fic as it's the longest I've personally written (7k is not much, but for my standards it was a NOVEL) but also something I just really enjoyed digging into. I had great fun looking into the minds of Charlie and Dee and also writing in a bit of comedy and smut as well!! I'm not going to get into chardee discourse too much here but I wanted to really treat it delicately since while I personally decided to go against canon, others may not, so I wanted to make sure that we still knew that they weren't perfect people, while still wanting to root for them as well. I genuinely think that Charlie and Dee could thrive away from the gang (as they did in Misses The Boat!)

2. The Element Of Surprise

Miles gets Alex a gift of something once lost.

I loved writing this fic. It only took me a couple of days to write too(which also by my standards is a win)! I just love dipping into this alternate world where Alex and Miles are together. I also miss Alex's death ramps ring, someone SHOULD get him a replacement!

3. Hell Is Round The Corner

Finn patches up Poe's blaster wound, and emotions are running high in the lead up to the battle of Exegol. Set during The Rise of Skywalker.

Oof. Poe and Finn in the leadup to battle? Unspoken feelings? Someone fixing up the others injuries? Sign me up (hence why I wrote this lmao)! This one was very fun but also challenging to write as I really wanted it to fit within the plot of the movie and story, almost like a deleted scene which I felt should (and could) be part of the movie, adding that little sprinkle of Stormpilot it needed. I quite enjoyed writing a bit of angst too!

4. All We Are

Murdoc and 2D fall asleep watching telly, and Murdoc contemplates their relationship when he wakes up with him in his arms.

More angst? Hell yeah. This, for reasons I do not know, is my most popular fic with the most hits, which surprises me but I'm not complaining! I enjoyed looking into 2D and Murdoc as characters and their dynamic together and the potential of their ship (and why they should NEVER be together). Being a Gorillaz fan has a great perk of having brilliant lore to play with. I do still one day want to write my 2D and Ace fanfic but have yet to think of a plot🤷🏻‍♀️

5. Not Safe for Comms

Poe's been away on a long mission. Finn gets in touch. (...literally)

Ah yes, more smut. I forgot about this fic! I generally avoid re-reading my own smut coz #cringe but I remember how I really wanted to get across the sexual tension between Poe and Finn but also the tension of their separation and the reason for it.

[bluerosesburnblue]

Bless that post. I love the aro/ace headcanon, but I also love all mc/charlie shippers. Basically, I'm very very Pro-Ship and like... I've seen the people who headcanon aro/ace charlie get really hostile and weirdly aggressive over it. I'm pretty sure one person even deactivated their account because they dared to call out the harrasment and were in turn harrassed themselves. Fandom is supposed to be fun and shipping should never be about activism like some ppl are trying to do and it boggles me

Thank you. Given the extremes people go to on this site, it’s nice to see someone else who agrees with me about keeping these things measured and respectful

Honestly, my breaking point the other night was that I happened to see an anon on one of the really popular blogs in the fandom. All they said was that they were a fan of the ace headcanon, but they saw a lot of the negativity in the tag in regards to the Charlie/MC ship and were worried that if they started posting their stuff regarding it that they’d get backlash or get seen as insensitive. The whole thing looked like someone who was very anxious asking someone they respected if they thought it would be appropriate. They probably trusted that blog to be mature and give them some reassurance

The response they got was basically (I’m paraphrasing here) “The ace ‘headcanon’ is undeniably canon, you can still post your thing but just know that it’s not canon and nobody has to like the fact that you posted it. I don’t know what hate you’re seeing, but I haven’t seen it and I don’t think it exists.” Which is, like… denying that anon’s experience and brushing off their fears is just a shitty thing to do to someone who was obviously nervous and looking for reassurance. And also completely wrong. Just because you can read that interpretation into a canon line doesn’t mean that your interpretation is completely canonical. Dating and romantic or sexual attraction are not the same thing. And it’s bad enough that that response is getting a good amount of notes

But what really pissed me off was a response I saw from someone else on that post. This person immediately accused that anon of intentionally overreacting and fishing for sympathy, crossing the line by asking someone they respected about their opinion of the discourse, and trying to deny asexual people representation. And they had the nerve to go on about how “people you thought were nice are turning out to be shitty people.” And then told that anon to grow up

That is absolutely disgusting behavior. Even if Charlie was canonically aro/ace, it would be going too far. Nobody knows anything about that anon, because they’re a goddamned anon. For all anybody knows, that anon could’ve been a kid or young teen who legitimately wanted to be respectful to the ace/aro community and thought it best to ask someone they respected what their opinion was. This is exactly what I was afraid was going to start up. That the second somebody showed that they didn’t agree with the popular interpretation or, god forbid, admitted that they don’t know enough and wanted another opinion, that they’d get slammed and harassed, with accusations made about their character. A character that we can’t even truly know because this is the internet and it’s easy to read whatever you want into these things. You’re not “educating” anyone, you’re just making them not want to learn

And then that original blog had the gall to tell that anon that they didn’t see any reason why they’d be afraid of harassment. When that aggressive, uncalled for response was a response on their post

The best part? Not only did that anon directly cite a post that had bothered them in a later ask, but they admitted that they were ace and questioning aro and just didn’t see why that line made the interpretation canon

And the person who slammed them? Not aro/ace.

As far as I can tell, that anon never got an apology. The sidequest isn’t even out yet and the fandom has already devolved into people making assumptions and yelling over actual ace people over their own representation and refusing to see a problem with it. In fact, they think they’re in the right because quite a few popular blogs agree with them. That anon could’ve been a kid. Are we really going to scream at people who might be kids over a headcanon?

Not a single, goddamned person made any effort to say that that person was out of line. Not a single person saw a problem with that response. I’d say it was just that one person in the wrong, but I’ve seen equally harsh and aggressive responses by other people out there, too. This isn’t a situation of one person being an asshole (if it was I might’ve just called them out, specifically), they just happened to be the one to tip me over the edge

That’s what’s pissing me off about this situation. If someone is legitimately so scared to post something completely harmless that goes against the popular interpretation, then there is a problem. There is a problem, that shouldn’t be ignored just because you might disagree with that anon’s opinion. People don’t get that scared for no reason. It’s awful and immature to ignore the problem. To pretend it doesn’t exist, or to support the response they got and double down just to make yourself look right

People are really getting this awful over a side character in a mobile game. Just back up and really look at that. A side character. In a mobile game.

Some people need to grow up, and it sure ain’t that anon. And I hope that if that anon ever sees this, they know that they’ve got my support and I’m so sorry that some people think asserting that their headcanon is canon is more important than an actual, living person

As for the “it’s canon do we really have to spell it out for you?” argument, uhhh… YEAH. Not them, specifically, but the source material does. Otherwise it’s not CANON. Canon is reserved for things irrefutably stated in the text not “all possible (or your favorite) ways you could interpret lines in the text.” When it’s widely accepted, that’s fanon. Canon: Charlie states that he doesn’t have time for dating because he’s busy studying dragons. Fanon: Charlie is ace/aro. We also need to destroy this false equivalency that dating and romantic attraction are the same thing. It doesn’t help anybody on either side

And no joke, I read a novel one time and the main character was so obviously ace to me. The whole thing was written from his point of view, and he was always questioning why people found romance to be so important. He wasn’t into any of the girls that flirted with him, he kissed his male best friend and said he didn’t feel any sparks, he avoided romance of all kinds even while questioning his sexuality. Well, come the end of the book, he realizes that he was gay and in denial and VERY in love with his best friend. It was adorable when they got together

But at the same time, there was way more evidence to suggest that that character was ace than there is for Charlie, and yet canonically he was gay despite that. Sexuality is something very complex and personal and the discovery of it no less so, so yes, absolutely, I think it needs to be stated in some way to be canon. Things can’t just be implied to be considered canon. Your assumptions may very easily be wrong, or not what the author intended. And even things that the author intended can be considered non-canon. Death of the Author is a real thing, after all. If it’s not stated in the text, it’s not canonical

If Charlie had said “I’m not interested in romance and don’t know if I ever will be” or something similar, then yes I’d say they had a basis for their argument. But that’s not what he said. Charlie says… basically what I would have if someone had flirted with me in high school. My suspicion is that something in JC’s contract meant that they weren’t allowed to make Bill, Tonks, or Charlie romance options, so they just reworded JK’s old interview when writing his dialogue to be more relevant to the quest material

And people using that interview as “proof” is especially funny to me since she only said that after denying the possibility that he could be gay because Dumbledore already was. You’re all really expecting this woman whose reaction to being asked if a character being homosexual was a possible interpretation was “Uh, no, we already have one of those,” to go around and confirm him to belong to an even less represented group? And do it tastefully? And then have half of these people who take that as canon also state that they don’t generally consider things that JK reveals outside of the source to matter?

Christ, people, learn the difference between canon, fanon, and Word of God. And then stop ignoring or harassing people for rightly calling out that you’re misusing the terms

[bitseventimes]

fxx said you guys need to relate to the gays a bit more and Glenn came out with his 3pm coffee self diagnosis religious trauma cat ownership and cigarette addiction and said yeah. I got it

[dashiellqvverty]

looks there’s a lot i regret about stanning sunny, most of all the amount of stuff on the show i made excuses for, but the fact that i used to be like discourse-level invested in charlie kelly being asexual is definitely up there

[cakevsdragonicons]

Charlie Weasley from Harrry Potter is a dragon ace!

Requested by anon

[lowtoleranceforyou]

[gothicandgay]

my ex was an exclusionist and one day we were walking along and I was talking about how I had always assumed I was straight because I wasn’t physically attracted to anyone and straight was the default™. (It was more indepth than that but I can’t remember the exact exchange). And he was like, wow that’s so similar to all these things other LGBT+ people say. And then I saw the panic as he realised what he was saying and he changed topics lmao.

[inkpotlanterned]

On Ace Representation In the Media

Asexuals are more often being represented in media or discussed due to the tendencies of certain characters (like Sheldon Cooper, Pidge Gunderson, etc.) and that's great and I love it but I find it frustrating when the term "asexual" is used as a simplified term for "acearo" or "asexual aromantic."

When I tell people I'm ace, they assume I'm acearo because that's how asexuals are always presented. The umbrella term "asexual" is often grossly oversimplified and people who identify as demisexual, greysexual, and asexual romantic are left to explain their identity over and over.

Someone who doesn't pursue romantic relationships isn't necessarily asexual (aromantic people can experience sexual attraction) and someone who doesn't pursue sex isn't necessarily aromantic (Personally, I identify as asexual panromantic.) Heck! It's possible for someone who identifies as asexual to be sex-positive and to actually like sex.

I love that asexuality is being discussed more with characters like Jughead and Charlie Weasley, but I wish that the word "asexual" wasn't only used to apply to acearos. Really, the asexuality spectrum has a lot of nuanced distinctions between whether or not one is sex-repulsed, sex-neutral, or sex-positive, where they lie on the asexual spectrum, and who they are attracted to romantically.

Please don't let sex-repulsed acearos who are often associated with being loners or nerds (because no asexual can be outgoing apparently) become the face of a broad range of distinct and wildly different people. While people like that do exist, they aren't the only people in the asexual community.

[divagonzo]

Hi, I'm wondering how to learn to not be so possessive over possible ace characters? Take Charlie, I'm so happy that word of god supports an ace view of Charlie, that he never married and are more interested in dragons than women. But he's shipped with self-inserts and other book character, sometime he's written as someone who sleeps with everything that moves, and it makes me want to scream. I realise that this sounds stupid, but I don't know how to not act so possessive and irrational over him

Evenin’ Nonnie. Grab a beverage from the fridge and we’ll natter a spell.

I’m tagging @weasleyismyking540 because she made an excellent point while we were talking last week (and I know she’ll want to add more onto this discussion.)

First of all, I’m the same way about Charlie. Having (even if he’s barely in the series) as any kind of aro/ace (or spectrum) of such is wonderful. It’s incredible. There is so little ace representation that we take what we can get. I’m sure our lovely compatriots the Aromantics appreciate such, too.

Having said all of that,…

More under a cut since this got long and slightly complicated.

There are some schools of thought (which is where you can look further if you so want. YMMV.) that Charlie dating someone and realizing “ain’t nothing happening” or “Whelp this isn’t what it’s all cracked up to be” or “Why can’t they be like Dragons? At least you know they want to kill you and it is not personal” was how he realized that he just wasn’t into that sort of thing.

For those who write him having relationships with Self-Inserts (looking at the online game and not tagging such since they are having their fun and it doesn’t impact me in the least especially with a black-tag list) and finding their own Weasley for their own Self-Inert? It’s their bit of fun. Their fun doesn’t impact you in the least, especially when some of it might be how he comes to really realize how Ace/Aro he is. It doesn’t impact me, either. (Or he could be Lithoromantic/sexual in that it sounds good in theory but in practice? Absolute pants. (With the one who wasn’t a guy I had such feelings for *aka UST and Pining* mine was Lithoromantic in that I’d never act on it because the consequences would have been destructive AF to so many. Then I got my s* sorted and figured out and things are swimmingly now.)

They aren’t harming us Aces, even if it feels like our particular orientation gets shoved aside the instant that the situation is shown where he might consider hanging out with (a girl, guy, Black Lake Squid - whomever) and maybe have some kind of relationship.  Admittedly, there is a bias especially when Ace still gets plenty of crap from The Community along with considerable gatekeeping and being told repeatedly that Aces aren’t oppressed.

The ones who make him out to be a Lothario? That’s probably a bit of wishful thinking and wish fulfillment, in that Charlie would be into them that way even if it’s canon that he’s more into his dragons than anyone else (guy or girl or whomever.) Heck, I’ve read my share and laugh a bit since Charlie is barely there and any more than a leg lamp or cardboard cut out. He’s almost an OC when it comes to mentions in the entire storyline.

(And yes, I wrote him doing such adult things but I also intentionally wrote him as Aro/Ace and while I don’t think my gift recipient liked their gift, I’m quite proud of writing something that intricate, complicated emotionally and mentally and have it applicable.) (No I won’t mention where it’s published since it’s so not Ace safe in the least.)

So, my suggestion on preventing violence and having an aneurysm about Charlie and his Aro/Ace orientation is black tagging some tags and then pointedly ignoring it, focusing on those stories that are written where he is Ace. Curating the media you take in will help considerably. But considering those possibilities, given the year/era (the late 80s when Asexual wasn’t talked about ever ‘cept in psychology and psychiatry and even then it was “something is wrong with her” and “she’s broken, I tell you” or “Prude” “Cold Fish” “Frigid” the only way you could consider and find out that you’re just not into dating and more) took…. dating and maybe more to figure it out.  People rarely were referred to a counselor because they weren’t dating by 15, or even 20. Maybe 30 and then you’re personally wondering but that’s more personal knowledge and understanding.

The upside now is that being Ace is widely spoken about more and people are comfortable knowing this aspect about themselves and wondering why they never felt that way about persons ABC XYZ. It’s easier to find like-minded people now.  It’s easier to find answers, materials, and knowledge now.

It wasn’t the case in the late 80s and early 90s.

So like so many little girls all buying the same Barbie and telling their own stories and having fun with Charlie…. it’s all good. Really. You keep writing/arting/creating things about him being Ace and I sure will read it.

[bones-sprouts]

I'm just gonna add a couple of things ab my blog and make this my pinned post !!

bonesposts -> bones-sprouts

- If you want me to use a certain cw/tw, please tell me!! I'm happy to use it if it makes you more comfortable

- My asks are open! whether anon or not, you're always welcome to yell ab whatever shit you please

- I occasionally talk about discourse, so if you don't want to see that then make sure to block the tag

- I am a minor, so please don't be weird 😎

- I'm mostly a dsmp blog as of right now

- i mcyt post mostly, but im also into invincible, good omens, the good place, owl house, pokemon, ace attorney, your turn to die, ted lasso, cobra kai, and more that i am forgetting, so like if you share those fandoms w/me i would die for you

- refer to me as cam, skittle, bones, bone, scam, skit, skat, melon, skuttle, scene, cube, charlie, sprouts, or literally any other name you pull out of your ass. i do not care

@ifoundthegayjuice

- if you reblog my occasional drawings know that i would die for you

- please don't rb my responses to personal asks unless you're adding to the conversation ! if it's just mcyt related or memes then go ahead, but when it comes to me or askers talking about personal stuff (ESPECIALLY vents) then like please don't rb

@viewfinder-chernobyl

- i use emojis to identify anons, these are the ones that are taken :] also be warned that if you don't pick one i will pick one for you <3

🥝

🌫️

🎃

🥑

☔

🦋

🕷️

💾

🎵

💎

😔

[theliterarywolf]

If you don’t mind me asking, why is there so much discourse regarding Hazbin Hotel?

The thing with Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss is that they’re at the midway point of having two kinds of discourse lashed at them: general fandom-wank discourse and outsiders who want to prove how sanctified and noble they are discourse.

The prior is just the general discourse that you see in any fandom for anything with a currently popular fandom: ‘oh, this ship is abusive/problematic’, ‘oh, you shouldn’t be a fan if you haven’t consumed all of the media for it’, art theft, and whatnot. You also get the bonus-value of some ace discourse/aphobia due to Alastor being canonically Asexual and a lot of people just having it out for those black, silver, white, and purple lines.

Thus, even if you were able to circumvent and sail a steady course to avoid all the fandom-wank just to enjoy your show, then you get the latter camp of discourse full of people who want SO MUCH to shit on the team behind these cartoons that they’ll cling onto constantly debunked claims like they’re Rose clinging onto that damn door in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, try to pit minority creators against one another -- 

I saw several people trying to say shit like ‘Why watch this shitty show when you can stan Tuca and Bertie instead~?’ (the show, of course, being the creation of Lisa Hanawalt) Which, 1. Does nothing but make people who actually like Tuca and Bertie look like brats (thanks for that), and 2. Tuca and Bertie was saved from Netflix’s bullshit by Adult Swim, so you really don’t need to be hostile to other content anymore..?

-- Make long-winded ‘critique’ videos that don’t even go into LEGITIMATE criticisms of the show (like the sound mixing in some parts of the initial HH pilot being unbalanced) but pull stuff out of their asses, I know one guy tried to make a whole tirade about how Alastor having a voice that sounds like a radio broadcast ‘was dumb and didn’t make sense’, despite, you know, him being THE RADIO DEMON!!

Or, my favorite, people trying to say that VivziePop hates LGBT people because of characters like Angel Dust and Katie Killjoy. You know, despite the fact that it’s BLINDLY OBVIOUS that Angel Dust isn’t in hell because he’s gay, he’s in hell because of his violent past and drug-addictions, Katie Killjoy saying ‘You can put that away; I don’t TOUCH the GAYS’ is there to show that she’s a shitty person, Alastor is, once again, Asexual, and our main character Charlie is wlw in a relationship with another wlw Vaggie. 

And so much other stuff that is either torn so far away from context that the complaints don’t make sense or it’s just people making up stuff to trash on a creator making something they don’t like.

Tl;Dr - The reason why HH/HB have so much discourse surrounding them is because they’re popular, dark, and new and people tend to hate anything that’s popular, dark, and new but they don’t want to just say that they hate the things, so they have to justify said hatred with lies.

[trashmammal-lee]

Cisgendered heteromantic asexuals are not Straight. What's so hard to understand about that statement, bubby?