#but either way - it's like that post that's like fandom has connotations and i'm just an anthusiast

[royboyfanpage]

Okay, let's talk about Ollie's experience with fatherhood.

I'm an Oliver Queen apologist forever, but I think that there's a tendency in fandom to go one of two ways- "absolutely perfect dad, no flaws whatsoever" or "evil abuser who shouldn't be within six miles of a child". This isn't an Ollie exclusive phenomenon, a lot of characters and topics do fall into that black-and-white mindset. But the thing is- Ollie doesn't have to be either extreme. Particularly with Roy, who most of the debate centres around, Ollie wasn't perfect! I think there's such a rich discussion point in terms of young Roy's relationship with Ollie, so much more than just That Panel. Because, in my interpretation, Ollie absolutely cared about him, absolutely saw him as a son, but also the idea of being a father is something that deeply terrified him. The idea that this literal child being dependent on him made it feel more real, if that makes sense. Coming to terms with the fact that he was responsible for another person's life was difficult for him, and so he put up this wall- hero and sidekick. A conceptual dynamic, one that's not based in reality. He can keep that distance between himself and Roy and decide what that means, he doesn't have to be a father because that word has so many strong connotations, but he can still express that he cares about Roy, in his own way. That's why he always calls Roy 'Speedy' even out of costume, that's why his first thought is that Roy's undercover in Snowbirds. He can focus on being a good mentor to Speedy, which will have a trickle-down effect to being a good guardian to Roy, right?

Unfortunately, kids' brains don't work like that! Especially not a kid who's already lost two fathers. Roy needed a stability in his teenage years that Ollie just wasn't able to give at that time. He didn't see "Ollie's nice to me as Speedy because he loves me and doesn't know how to show it", he saw "Ollie's nice to me as Speedy, which means I'm only good as Speedy". This, at least in my opinion, is a major factor in Roy’s later self-esteem issues. Roy’s constantly underestimating himself as a hero, constantly comparing himself to Dick, and pushing himself 24/7 to improve because he internalised the idea that if he’s good, if he’s the perfect hero, then he’ll be loveable. He can’t be bad, he can’t fail, he can’t back down because if he does, he’s nothing.

It’s absolutely not Roy’s fault, but also this doesn’t mean that Ollie’s an evil neglecting abuser, either. Even the best parents fuck up, and Ollie was by no means the best parent. He took in Roy as a sidekick, as a buddy, and then never really found a way to combine the ideas of sidekick and son. He assumed that Roy would be able to interpret meanings behind gestures, which is something that Roy seems to struggle with even into adulthood. I’ve talked about it a fair bit, Roy’s absolutely someone who relies on the explicit, but he’s also not someone who’ll ask for clarification, which has caused conflict in his relationships time and time again. And while it's something he has gotten better at as he's gotten older, a 12-18 year old Roy would absolutely not be able to read Ollie's motives.

And Ollie's fear of fatherhood isn't something exclusive to Roy, either. Sure, he'd gotten better at it by the time Connor and Mia entered the picture (speaking as an oldest child myself, we are the guinea pigs of parenting, I was my mum's sibling), he absolutely still expresses this with them. I mean, just look at his face when he finds out Connor's his son.

That's the face of a man who's just had the crushing weight of parenthood slammed down onto him again, the moment Connor stopped being an ally and started being his responsibility. He's scared, because Ollie absolutely does not see himself as a good father for someone to have. This was very much present during Roy's teenage years, but particularly since this is post-Snowbirds. Both in terms of Roy developing a drug addiction and in terms of Ollie's own initial reaction to it, he immediately spirals. And, since we've already established he does not know how to process things, he lashes out at Connor.

And as for Mia, he's definitely matured significantly by the time she comes into the picture, and compared to with Roy he's a lot more open with his feelings. However!

He still won't explicitly accept the responsibility of fatherhood! Despite acting like a father to Mia in every way through his actions, he still won't use his words! Even though in the issue following, he expresses a paternal protectiveness over her.

And I think Mia's HIV diagnosis is maybe one of the biggest examples of his distancing himself and hiding his feelings, particularly when Connor asks him how he's feeling about it.

He's so fine, so totally fine, trust him when he says he's fine, totally not freaking out. He's absolutely not terrified for his not-daughter, no way.

Ollie has this fear that if he gets too attached to his kids, he's gonna end up failing them. If he keeps a distance from them, then he can't blame himself when they get hurt. Is this good parenting? No! Absolutely not! But this is also the man who dresses up as Robin Hood and who chose to die rather than lose his arm. This is not a healthy man.

But he tries, he tries so hard, even if it's in his own way. And he recognises when he fucks up! And he tries his best to mend it later on!

He's not the best at showing his kids that he loves them, but he's so proud of Roy when he becomes Red Arrow. He comes back to life to save Connor. He stands by Mia's side when she gets diagnosed and becomes Speedy. He's not a great dad, but goddamnit he's trying to be.

In conclusion, no, Ollie is not the perfect father. He's deeply flawed, and his own emotional incompetency has been and always will be a point of conflict between him and his kids. But he's not some uncaring abuser, either. He's trying.

[liquidstar]

I thought himbo meant very oblivious (and I guess dumb, but I've seen it mostly as just lacking certain situational awareness) but deeply caring guy who's also very attractive. I've never really seen it in the context of being slutty, just super hot. Sometimes the sexual nature is brought up but that's just Tumblr being horny on main

Anon I'm very sorry to tell you this but... The word has always been sexual. It means stupid slut. It's existed for a long time, well before Tumblr, and has meant stupid slut (and pretty much ONLY stupid slut. All that stuff about being nice and caring is pretty much just a Tumblr addition to make it less threatening or something)

It's basically been completely babyfied on Tumblr to the point that people forget this, but if you actually have conversations outside of here you'll quickly remember that the quirky "nice dumb guy uwu" connotation is a very online thing. And the word does in fact mean stupid slut, it's just been totally neutered by fandom blorbo posts to be less charged and more cutsie. But the real life connection doesn't actually magically go away once you apply it to real life people either

Also, hell, even if you do take out the sexual connotation to make it more generally approachable IT'S STILL A FUCKING INSULT THAT MEANS STUPID!!!! YOU CAN'T GO AROUND CALLING REAL LIFE PEOPLE STUPID LIKE THEY'RE YOUR FUCKING ANIME BOYS!!!

And you know what, if you wanna use it to talk about your blorbos like that IDC! That's totally fine and not hurting anyone. But sometimes it's important to remember that perhaps people's real life little siblings aren't free game to talk about that way, because that's weird and creepy on so many levels (even with the neutered definition tbh) like, what are we doing here rn?

It's a word that's always meant stupid slut, fandom people watered it down as fandom tends to do, and now there are plenty of people who forget how to act about it in non-fandom ways when it comes to real people. A tale as old as Tumblr....

My little brothers aren't blorbos you can talk about however you want, you can't go around calling them words that are sexually charged or insults just because you decided they actually mean something cute now. Like, imagine if I called your (teenage) family member a sexy idiotic whore and decided "sexy idiotic whore actually means nice person :) that's how me and my friends say it so that's what it means. So I said a nice thing so don't be mad 🤭" like that's weird right? That would be weird. It's kind of the same fucking thing. Stop that forever.

[bonefall]

So way back in the day on the original Warriors website, there was an area where you could submit questions about the series that the Erin's would answer and then post the question and answers on a FAQ page. Someone asked about prefixes that the Clans don't use because they're considered sacred, and the answer had been iterations of Moon-, Star-, or the Clan names themselves, so Sky-, Shadow-, etc.

Obviously this isn't true for canon anymore, if it ever actually was (citing here: lack of continuity between the Erins) but I'm curious to know if your AU has any prefixes that the Clan's absolutely refuse to use for one reason or another? Whether they be sacred or maybe they're considered "cursed", like perhaps a particularly evil cat has tarnished the prefix forever. (Such as the lack of Maple- prefixes in canon books post-Mapleshade! Maybe not intentional, but a cool world-building detail nonetheless!)

Stemming from that, do you think any prefixes would/could be turned into insults/curses later on down the line? Basically, what's the culture like for names? My favorite part of Warriors has always been the names, and the Erin's had such a nice thing going until it was tossed out the window. The system you use with Clanmew and all is super neat and I'd love to know more about Clan naming traditions! Also how each leader names cats - idk if it was you or someone else that I follow, but I saw a post talking about how each leader has a distinct way to name their warriors.

(Also small fun fact while on the subject of names, a friend of mine submitted a question asking about who Bluestar's parents were, and the answer was Duskflower and Stormtail. This was a few years before Bluestar's Prophecy was published, so she was very upset over them changing "Duskflower" to "Moonflower" when it did finally come out!)

The Duskflower thing is actually a misconception: What happened was that in a field guide, the Erins wrote that the name was "Moonflower," and then felt that "moon" should be sacred. That's when they started using "Duskflower," until Bluestar's Prophecy came out and they agreed with the editors that the older information should take precedence

(Rare anti-retcon win)

But anyway I have no banned or sacred names! I don't like that concept! Possibly because I am from an old fandom era of 'traditional namers' that just used it as an excuse to bully people and have bad taste. Hawkfrost's name ROCKS MY SOCKS and they all died mad while I'm still here.

My rules with namings is that EVERYTHING must make sense in-universe. So I don't like lyrical naming very much... names like "Friendlyface" or "Empyreanmist" are funny, but I don't see how a kitten would end up with those names unless every cat in their Clan stopped taking their lives seriously

(Or are in WarriorClan. BB!WarriorClan renamings are going to look WILD)

That also means ecologically invalid names get cut or end up being translation quirks. Names like Cypress, Olive, Myrtle, etc.

I don't ban "insult" names either, but I do rule that they are typically ShadowClan. They have a very dark sense of humor.

And yes I am the one with leader naming styles! So far these are the styles:

Bramblestar: terrible. Doesn't consider names beforehand, often comes up with titles that are awkward or unimpressive

Harestar: Reverant and thoughtful, tries to name based on friendships, interests, and quirks.

Mistystar: Names litters according to 'themes,' often sharing suffixes or picking similar ones.

Brokenstar: Only ever gives "cool" names with deadly and strong connotations.

Firestar: Names awkwardly, but genuinely. Surprises his Clan constantly with banger names (Lionblaze) or shockingly uncomfortable ones (Brambleclaw).

Onestar: Names practically, trying to limit suffix repeats and tonguetwisters.

So on.

[uselessheretic]

Harm Reduction in the OFMD Fandom: Izcourse Edition

I keep wanting to write something up about this, but getting stumped on how to even begin. Largely, because I already know exactly what bad faith arguments are going to be made off the bat, and I feel reluctant to clog down my writing trying to dispel every weird take about things I didn't say. So, it is what it is. If you have questions please ask politely and use a bit of critical thought beyond trying to find anything to grab hold on to contradict.

The Izzy fandom gets harassed. A lot. Nobody here understands why either. When referencing harassment, I'm most likely referring to either direct abusive messages such as anon hate through Tumblr, or talking about the OFMD through a holistic view that includes harassment through Twitter of common dogpiling, stalking, spreading of false rumors, the occasional doxxing, and other things. I'm including Twitter in this conversation because the world doesn't revolve around individuals on Tumblr, and for some of us, it's beneficial to talk about the greater context of fandom without assuming that we are blaming random Tumblr users for Twitter drama. That said, a lot of people use both platforms and the two of them are closely linked, especially since a lot of meta from Tumblr gets poorly replicated on Twitter.

So we're on the same page, the way I'm defining harassment is: The continuous or severe targeting of an individual or group through harmful behavior that includes physical threats, name-calling, impersonation, spreading malicious rumors, and encouraging others to harass a target. This is not an all-inclusive list, but I want to create a baseline for what I'm talking about. This also means things such as stating you dislike a character, responding to another's post to disagree, or speaking positively about a character. This also means that instances of conflict are not inherently harassment either, although this is murkier as we move through the gray area of "continuous or severe."

I'll also be using the terms "Izzy likers" and "Izzy crit" since those seem to be each respective sides more preferred terms and things like "Izzy stans" or "Izzy antis" can hold negative connotations. I'll also be referring to the anon hate received as from a singular person, unless noted otherwise, and as "L anon."

So, I guess let's dive into it?

I've seen the question posed a few times "Well, what do you want us to do about it?" when Izzy likers have brought up the topic of harassment or alluded to the fact that Izzy crits as a group contribute to this. It's true that our individual ability to stop harassment completely is an impossible task, however, there are actions that can be taken as a collective to reduce the amount of harm being done. I don't believe it's true that harassment is an aspect of fandom one must accept to be within it. I also don't think it's right to equate messages telling Black people to get lynched as the norm in fandom everyone has to deal with. I understand that anon hate is common throughout fandoms, but the vitriol and noticeable escalation of L anon is an anomaly that deserves to be taken seriously.

Actions I'm proposing (and will elaborate on) are for Izzy crits to STOP:

Minimizing the harassment of Izzy likers

Separating this harassment from greater conversations of misogyny, transphobia, racism, and antiblackness

Engaging with L anon unless it is to very clearly condemn him without caveats

Encouraging the association of liking Izzy as being an indicator that someone is racist, abusive, homophobic, etc

Using the #Izzy Hands tag as a place to post character hate, criticisms of Izzy likers, or to find meta focused on disliking him.

Minimizing harassment and distancing identity

This includes things such as suggesting that the harassment might not exist, that it isn't that bad, it's just a troll, turn off anon, everybody deals with this, and the idea that people are using discussions on harassment as an excuse. Minimizing harassment normalizes the behavior and continues a narrative that Izzy likers should expect to get harassed online. Downplaying the effects or severity dismisses the victims of it, and refusing to recognize that this is a form of passive endorsement.

I feel some type of way about this personally because I don't appreciate my experiences of racist harassment being treated as something I should just get over or normal in fandom. Like sorry to keep bringing it up I guess lol but like?

This isn't okay and it goes beyond "normal" fandom harassment and I feel like I'm going crazy having to argue that this isn't just something shitty that happens to everyone, but an awful, violent, and frightening message(s) to receive. It genuinely concerns me to see white people in fandom brush it off and make a choice to instead focus on the implications of shipping Izzy with his boss. It points towards a trend of dehumanization online where we no longer see people as people, but characters in our screen who have lesser value than our favorite blorbos. I cannot believe I have to say this.

Purposely separating L anon from identity is another way of passively justifying abuse. Whenever people brush off L anon, it's often in the context of anon hate happens to everyone and ignores the fact that more marginalized identities are getting the brunt of this which includes rape threats, suicide baiting, and overt antiblackness. It can often be followed with reminders that Izzy crits of color also receive racism. The thing is, saying that Izzy likers are receiving racist harassment, doesn't mean that other groups of fans do not. The harassment Izzy likers gets still matters, even if you don't view it as unique. It's concerning to hear white allies especially utilize this rhetoric as if they have a limited capacity of caring for poc.

Engaging with L anon

A lot of people do straight up delete L anon asks. On the Izzy likers side at least, there's been an uptick in people posting the hate they receive or collecting screencaps before blocking out of a necessity of proving that the hate exists. I think a lot of us would prefer to not have to do that!

It would help if Izzy crits made an effort to stop engaging with the anon unless it was to condemn his actions. Certain forms of engagement can be viewed as encouragement whether intentional or not, and it feels noticeable that in the last few weeks L anon has gotten increasingly violent.

You don't have to tell L anon that "I'm not even an Izzy stan so you have the wrong blog anyways" because this normalizes the idea that he should be focusing his attention on Izzy likers. You don't have to argue and justify to L anon that you actually dislike Izzy or prove that you're critical of him for the same reason.

You certainly don't need to tell L anon "I don't care if you harass Izzy stans" and it's insane to pretend like this is anything but a dick move.

Telling L anon "you act just like an Izzy stan!" or that they're "Izzy coded" reinforces to him that Izzy likers are abusers and racists, therefore affirming in his mind that they're acceptable targets.

Seriously, if your response is anything other than "sending these messages is fucked up and nobody in fandom deserves this for liking a character" then just block and delete the ask. Any amount of attention can be twisted into positive affirmation and adding on "harassment is bad" doesn't negate the impact of confirming to anon that you view Izzy likers as racist abusers.

Encouraging the association of liking Izzy as being an indicator that someone is racist, abusive, homophobic, etc

It sucks stop doing it. We can draw a difference between Izzy the character and Izzy likers. In the end, your interpretation of a character is yours and nobody can stop you from having it. Putting thought into how you frame meta, however, could help lessen this association.

Be careful with your language and ensure that you are referring to the character when discussing the show. "Izzy stans refuse to see that he's X" is an unnecessary statement when it can just be that "Izzy is X which you can see from scene Y." When there is a specific trend of harassment being justified via claiming a group of people is bigoted, it's worth the effort of minimizing feeding into that assumption.

Saying shit like "Izzy likers who are poc are desperate for white approval" is like for one really shitty lmao? But also feels bad in a climate where people are being called Candace Owens race traitors who should be killed.

There's a great article that touches on this and the way that even when someone isn't directly harassing a person, their separate posts in combination with others, reifies the idea that the victim in an appropriate target.

The author further elaborate in her research about third order or indirect harassment.

The examples she uses here are a bit more extreme, but this is the same framework she's utilizing in her article discussing harassment on the left and in queer communities.

When you answer L anon and say shit like:

or respond to concerns about racist targeting like this:

I am in fact going to feel some type of way about a week later seeing L anon increasingly escalate his behavior until I get six messages in my inbox calling me a race traitor bigoted cunt. It doesn't matter if you say "it's bad to be racist" when you're already confirming the idea that Izzy likers are the main exporters of racism in fandom which is explicitly L anon's justification for sending hate.

Tagging character hate

I still can't believe that this is an argument when it's a basic courtesy within fandom and has been for years. Tagging character hate doesn't constitute as harassment. However, it does exacerbate an already hostile climate between fans and allows for more conflict that could be easily avoided.

If a meta post is in the character tag then people are going to respond to it. It being tagged communicates that this is something people can respond, especially when you encourage people who agree with you to comment.

If you want less Izzy likers to respond to your Izzy meta then just stop tagging it as #Izzy Hands. It will greatly decrease the amount of interaction! Putting posts into the tag ends up baiting people into responding, continuing to draw out a conflict that nobody wants to be in.

If you don't like Izzy and you think he's too popular a character or his fandom is where you end up seeing the most toxicity come from please consider not going through his tag. If you instead look through tags of characters you like, you will be rewarded with content of that character. The character tag will not function adequately as a place to locate critical content for them, so just cut out the middle man, and stop using it because it's just pissing both sides off and "I have a right to be here!" is the dumbest hill to die on.

Using alternative tags for organization literally just makes things easier for everyone. Tagging things with #Izzy crit or something like #Dizzy Izzy allows you to have a space to locate similar posts without having to expose yourself to a group of people you don't like. It also provides an easy tag for people to block and avoid seeing on their dashboard. This is better than people just having mute the tag to filter out when going through his character tag, because it doesn't require an entire community to cater towards your need to post things in a tag on principle. People who are new to the fandom and just happen to like the character also don't have to be confused by seeing chara hate in the tag and going to argue with it.

It is good to center your fandom experience on things you like instead of being set on asserting your right to be within a space you don't like! I promise!

[themelodicenigma]

***Long post, oh boy.

It is interesting that I've gotten some Asks about Fang and Vanille circulating on Twitter because of FFXVI. Lol I have seen the posts, and also the resistance of it from those who feel like it's looking down on Dion/Terrance (which I kind of agree with, let them have their spotlight).

Overall, we really just shouldn't care too much about that.

A lot of the fandom drama is just bleh at this point (really always was), and when you've seen SO much for years, it's easy to tell what is what. I mean, I'm now seeing people fighting over Jill/Clive of whether they're romantic or not, or if they align more with Clerith or Cloti. Lol Just why.

However, as for what some of ya'll requested from me about Fang and Vanille, to talk about how they're different from Jill/Clive or Vaan/Penelo—I mean, that's easy.

Jill/Clive? It's a random line in her young profile at the beginning that mentions Clive and Joshua "love her as a sister"—the same beginning that immediately has an NPC say Jill/Clive make a "handsome pair", show hardly any typical sibling action, dialogue, or contextual connotation between Jill/Clive in any scene (where they barely really interact until the Moon screen), and the interactions they do have don't really naturally fit into the box of "these two love each other as siblings or Clive views her as a younger sister". Apparently, it's also BOTH the ENG and JPN that mention a sibling relationship. Either way, the game also straight-forwardly writes them as romantic, so it doesn't matter even if it was true or not—unless you're trying to argue he thinks of her as both, there's no doubt they're romantic. Like, seriously, if you haven't finished the game well....trust, you'll find out they're romantic.

Vaan/Penelo? Well first, as far as I'm concerned, the BradyGames guide from years past is the one that carries the assumption that they're "brother and sister". Otherwise, the game, Ultimania, and even the Archive Ultimania only mention they're "like family"—in which case, this is obviously in reference to their orphan past where they were already childhood friends. Reks (Vaan's brother) went to war and Vaan's parents died, Vaan stays with Penelo's family as a result, and then soon after Penelo's parents ALSO died, and then now they BOTH were orphaned along with a bunch of other kids and grew up together working for Migelo as a group of orphans. It's not written for no reason or something that is not true—they're like family. And of course, you know that's a descriptor of a bond, of closeness—YOU can assume it defaults and is limited to a sibling relationship, but technically that's not true, and very often isn't. So, it doesn't even contrast their romanticism (which is hinted at in the 1st game, not just the 2nd), not to mention, it's not even a focus between their characters in the story. The friendship is really the focus, while the family aspect is more expressed for Vaan through dealing with his actual brother's death. The family in relation to their past and part of their bond is definitely a thing, don't get me wrong, but it's hardly emphasized within the game and a center for what they express about and to each other. That'd be the friendship, you just also happen to have romanticism applied eventually as well.

Fang and Vanille, though? It's the major focus of their characters, the family concept flows through them intentionally, consistently, and is also specific to being as sisters. Not to mention, it then is applicable to ALL things shown between them and EXPLAINS their behavior towards each other. In the Games, FFXIII and FFXIII World Previews, Ultimanias + Other credible guides like Piggyback, VA interviews, novelizations—this never stops being true for them and something implemented more than you'd EVER see between Clive/Jill or Vaan/Penelo. And it all "coincidentally" flows together as a whole for the family/sister application.

FFXIII World Preview - their introduction on the relationship chart is "same family surname". Even before the game's release, the family connotation is applied to them. While we learn the REASON in-world is because of them being from the same village, this more than obviously is for the purpose of serving the continuous family connotation THROUGH Fang and Vanille specifically to emphasis this, as supported by all other points below. Also, just a small thought, why choose this to introduce the characters mysteriously, and then later have a plethora of familial confirmations, if it's something that isn't representative of exactly what it foretells?

FFXIII Ultimania Chart - "relationship like sisters", enough said. Unlike Vaan/Penelo, it specifies WHAT family relationship they have. They didn't pull back from "same family surname", they took it steps further. The relationship chart is informative of something about the characters, and obviously the content can show something more than just the chosen moniker (e.g. Aqua/Terra/Ven aren't just "fellow pupils"), but it also isn't something that is FALSE information unless the content TELLS you it's false. It normally doesn't, and certainly didn't for Fang and Vanille, as per below.

FFXIII Scenario Ultimania, Archive Ultimania, LR Complete Guide - literally, everywhere, ESPECIALLY in writings relative to Fang, who is the older sister, protector, and most concerned over the other—this also correlates to why Fang's character centers around Vanille's more than the other way around (more on that later). Her descriptions really capture WHY she is the way she is towards Vanille and why the center of her character is protecting Vanille and keeping her from turning into a Cie'th. The FFXIII Scenario Ultimania even directly says in Fang's profile "Vanille is not just a childhood friend from the same hometown" and guess what works alongside this description: "To Fang, Vanille is an irreplaceable family member", "grew up like sisters", "they have a bond beyond family", “Since the original Final Fantasy XIII, Fang has always strived to protect Vanille, considering her as her own family", etc. etc. etc. Family, family, family. Being friends is absolutely a thing, don't get it twisted, but the family aspect not only in retrospect to growing up together, but in HOW they see each other, is consistent, ESPECIALLY for Fang. The Lightning Returns Complete Guide is from Piggyback, who is known for having the developers involved in the conception of their guides as well, and Toriyama himself is quoted in the book saying Fang considers Vanille as family.

FFXII Scenario Ultimania Stories - As a bonus, in Benny Matsuyama's short stories for all the characters, including separately in both Fang and Vanille's stories—in both stories, he doubles down on the same things as above, describing how Fang has this strong conviction and vow of protecting Vanille, who is like her younger sister, and wants to stop her from becoming a Cie'th. While Matsuyama's canonicity through BentStuff is a complete other conversation, there is the consideration of the fact he's reiterating something that has already been applied as opposed to making it up, not to mention, his novella and the character he created in the FFXIII Ultimania Omega were made canon, and he's in the staff credits for Lightning Returns.

FFXIII Ultimania Omega Interview - even Fang's VA mentions how "To Fang, Vanille is like a younger sister", and relates that to why she relates to Fang since she has a younger sister too, and thus understands the strong conviction Fang has in protecting Vanille.

The FFXIII Game - now I don't think the game itself specifically mentions them being "like sister" (at least in the dialogue, as I've gone through the script of the cutscenes), but the family aspect is something they carry pretty heavily, especially for the group. Vanille's narration talking about family and the regrets of not keeping them as close as you should, Vanille introducing the idea of "On Gran Pulse, everyone is family", Fang and Vanille emphasizing that their village is a close-knit family when arriving to Oerba, Fang assuring Vanille "we have a new family now" and the Ulti Omega doubling down by saying that this line clearly shows how Fang sees the group as her family, and of course, Fang trying to sacrifice herself to fulfill her promise to "protect her family" when the group faces Orphan. Fang's worry and conviction to protect Vanille, and extending this to her expanded family, is shown greatly.

-Zero Promise- Novelization - the novelization is the treasure trove for Fang and Vanille's context as character, their family/sister relationship (along with friendship, of course), and their past. It even features two direct parallels between Lightning and Fang for the sake of showing how Fang views Vanille like a little sister. Even Vanille, in the moment they became L'Cie at their village, tells Fang about how despite being orphans, they were raised together, and were family. There's also the additional context of Fang being like the "woman/adult" while Vanille is like "the child", emphasizing the child-like personality of Vanille by how she always slept next to Fang (also with other kids in the village, before they became L'Cie) from her fears of loneliness, and Fang recounting this of her looking after her being a "crybaby". Naturally, all of this does naturally fit within a context where there's an older sibling and a younger sibling. There usually isn't, but if there are concerns over canonicity—Jun Eishima, the author of this novel (and the FFXIII-2 novels), was hired directly by SE to write her novelizations and to have them published through SE individually, had them featured in the World Previews of both FFXIII and XIII-2, had another short story called -Episode i- featured with the Xbox 360 release of FFXIII, AND was the Story Advisor for the actual FFXIII-2 game. So, it's safe to say she's an authentic additional party to the series as an author, even more than Matsuyama.

-Episode i- Novelization - this short story features the group slightly post-the ending of FFXIII. The story shows the groups conviction for saving Fang and Vanille from the crystal stasis, which sets up this same conviction expressed from all of them (especially Snow and Hope) in FFXIII-2. More importantly, how this conviction is shaped by the familial bond they created with Fang and Vanille, and they remark how this meaning came from Vanille's famous line: "On Gran Pulse, everyone is family".

FFXIII-2 World Preview Book - continuing the trend, Fang and Vanille are described as "like family" once again in the relationship chart. And at this point, we already know HOW they're like family: sisters.

FFXIII-2 Game/Novelization - This first point is really kind of a bonus that is congruent to the comparison of Lightning and Fang, but in FFXIII-2 when Serah meets Fang for the first time, she talks about how Fang reminded her of Lightning. There's also the "Daughters of Etro" moniker they gain through prophecy and the "Legend of Cocoon" Noel speaks on—this is obviously congruent with the concept of them being family/sisters to one another, it just throws in the context of a connection to Etro. Interestingly enough, the ENG localization also recounts the legend through Noel as them being called "the sisters", as well, though this line of dialogue in JPN from Noel is still "the daughters". This meaning is also talked about within the novelizations Fragments Before and Fragments After.

FFXIII: Lightning Returns Game - And of course, Fangs conviction to protect Vanille is STILL the center of her character, to the point she leaves Vanille in order to accomplish this. Lightning will remark this, wondering what made Fang leave since they have "a bond beyond/stronger than family". At this point, it's obvious why family is the foundation of this descriptor, but also how it works as a nice descriptor that comments on the strength of this bond, and how it is stronger than the already strong bond of family bonds.

And the most important thing as demonstrated above? They don't stray from this—they build upon it. There's no deviation, there's no making it false, there's no "this is a lie and it's actually romantic". This IS the characters and their relationship—perhaps the most important difference between them and Clive/Jill or Vaan/Penelo. Within all this, there is no "coded/subtext" of romance, when all things expressed in the game fits within ALL that is provided above and is congruent to one another for the same conclusion: Fang and Vanille are family, are sisters, and very much so care a lot about each other. As you can see, it was given in a multitude of ways throughout the existence of all 3 games and corresponding material relative to them. This especially for Fang—a character who is older, has grown up taking care of a younger character in a family setting, and whose main priority is protecting them and looking after them: this doesn't just fit in the sibling/parental [hogosha] box, it is THE box itself. Are there stories that deviate, that subvert this and make it romantic? Absolutely, I've seen them myself. But, it's a deviation for a reason, it's "different than what it appears as" for a reason—because it's not what is natural for a romantic relationship to develop. There's a reason Fang is consistently compared and paired with Lightning, who is also not only just a sibling to Serah, but also a hogosha [parental figure]. I would make the same argument for Fang too.

One thing I've seen actively in the way is the very typical urge to use our personal interpretations more than the content to understand something. The bar for romanticism is REALLY low in how people perceive things, and that's a wider conversation on how media itself was the influence on this, kind of negatively if you ask me. Glorification of romanticism and sex is a thing. Like really, it's what part of me understands HOW people can see Fang and Vanille as romantic, but also, WHY I know they also should be able to see it as platonic, too. I believe this is an important aspect of talking about perception and media. However, we can't be blinded by it—logically or emotionally. There's not a single thing they've done that can't be understood through the lens of what the material has given you to understand it. Use the lens of the information, not your own personal interpretation if you want to KNOW Fang and Vanille. If you want to ship the hek out of them despite this, fine—I don't care about that specifically, but it would be nice if people recognized and also talked about who the characters actually are outside of their headcanon. That way, when things that are just misconceptions are said, people who know better can say something.

Fang originally being a man? Actually, they both were in a sense. And, not only is it a "coincidence" that the construction of Fang's character is centered on her "wanting to save Vanille", but also that one of the reasons Fang was turned into a female was to AVOID the feeling of romance between Fang and Vanille. Interesting how that little detail is left out by those mentioning this (one could even argue it's slightly homophobic, but that's a whole other convo). Either way, it makes sense as to why the center of Fang's character is her conviction to protect Vanille—it's what she was created for, and we see HOW they chose to execute that: to protect Vanille, her younger sister, her family.

Fang and Vanille being like the Ragnarok legend? It's pretty easy to understand what was/wasn't used with the Lif and Lifthrasir comparison. They're a duo, seemingly the last of the Pulse civilization, and associated with Ragnarok—that's where the similarity ends and how far it was utilized, obviously as based on the above. Something done in media all the time is the utilization of concepts, but not ALL details are 1:1. Happens all the time, and when the storytelling is directly referencing the concept itself (like True Love's Kiss or an Act of Pure Love), it's actually a specific point to SUBVERT from romance and apply it differently.

Vanille talking about never sleeping alone? This is literally linked to the "child-like" aspect of her character—of her fears and sadness of loneliness, and quite frankly the trauma of being orphaned. She's never slept alone, and Vanille recounts this in lieu of herself and ALL the orphans (before they're L'Cie)—it wasn't just Fang in her recollection, but Fang is the one she is closest to and relied on the most. Sleeping alone = fear of loneliness. Fang recounts the same idea in lieu of Vanille's "crybaby" personality—"Vanille would always cry, waking up from a bad dream, holding on to Fang and begging her not to leave her alone. She had always been like that, since they were children."—and naturally, this coincides with Fang's role of taking care of her since they were kids. Surely we're not confused on how that fits with a sibling dynamic more naturally than a romantic one? Then lastly, what is probably even the inspiration of this from the -Zero- Promise novel, is the wholesome/sad scene in the FFXIII game when Vanille, after making a deal about Sazh not invading her sleeping space, sneaks over to sleep next to him, crying, and Sazh allows it, calling her a kid. I mean, it's literally outlined three separate times. Nothing to do with romance, it's about Vanille's character. Unless, you really think Vanille was coming onto Sazh as opposed to dealing with trauma. Knowing the internet, I'm sure that's a ship somewhere, but it ain't it.

Fang lifting up Vanille's skirt to see her brand on her upper thigh? That is, to see if she is close to death, being a Cie'th? The very thing she's been stressing about the entire game up to that point? In this, we can also include the ability of Fang and Vanille hugging or holding each other's hands when they're sacrificing themselves. Basically, physical intimacy.

Boy, this one is a rant for me, and it's hard to be nice about it.

The L'Cie brand is practically almost like a wound, and they're constantly in s state of worry of it getting worse, with it being their ticking time clock towards losing themselves to becoming Cie'th. This is one of Fang's biggest concerns for Vanille along with protecting her.

Now, take their outward personalities that reinforce they're not one to make a big deal about seeing skin, their close-knit familial upbringing + being sisters within this environment—supplemented by the info that supports Fang being the older sister whose main concern is Vanille's safety and turning into a Cie'th + Vanille, who is the younger sister and like a "child", them both being females, and how Fang wordlessly moves Vanille to do this while Vanille has no protest, which can be reminiscent of a mother/child, which "coincidentally" flows with the above, etc. If you seriously can't understand in any way how this interaction fits within the information of the above, platonically, and doesn't showcase anything relative to "this can only happen if they're fucking"—then there's not much else to be said other than, maybe expand your understanding of human interaction and personalities in media (not even just JPN, either)? That's the nicest and most understanding way I can put it. Take in anything, where a sibling dynamic and their capability of interaction isn't just bickering and tussling with one another. Please. It's super easy, and has been done before or even further in so much other content, all across JPN media. There's SO many characters with strong sibling relationships. For SE games, also look at FFXIII itself—Lightning and Hope, Hope and Vanille (the beginning), Sarah and Vanille even share a moment when they meet, Lightning and Serah's interaction at the end of XIII-2, etc. It's everywhere. Yuna and Rikku's hug scene in FFX, Aqua's general intimacy towards Ventus in the KH series, etc. There's not a single thing Fang and Vanille has done that isn't covered under what has been given about their characters, and it's not even like, that much. I mean, Elsa and Anna between Frozen 1 and 2 show more I'd say. "B-but, but, hugs in Japanese media are always—". Nope, go read, watch, anything, please. Now, there can be a certain conversation of expectations between say, a female and male (and even this isn't absolute), but between females? Showing physical intimacy and closeness, not only in real-time of the story but also in key art? Super common. Easy.

There's even a conversation for the sake of how Fang and Vanille specifically are the way they are because of this upbringing, so Fang not making a big deal about even checking Lightning's brand despite being a stranger, Vanille and Serah sharing a moment while being strangers, and even how quickly Vanille physically came to comforting Hope at the beginning of the game—it's more about their personalities and familial/close-knit characterization.

Like, c'mon man. There's "I can see this happening between a couple but also know it can happen without it", and then there's "there's no 'heterosexual' explanation for this". One shows understanding and wisdom, the other, either just uninformed or purposely ignorant of the fact that, yes, they give you an explanation. Over, and over, and over again, in multiple sources, in multiple ways, as shown above. Realize the whole "I would never do that with my sister" is not evidential of what CAN and HAS been done for other sisters or sibling characters. I mean, if you're sincerely not use to seeing all types of physical or descriptive expressions that can happen between this configuration of characterization, I'm not sure how you'd make it through most JPN content to be honest and not tell the difference between what's sexual or platonic, or even American content like Four Brothers, The Outsiders, Frozen, etc., without believing all the siblings (blood related or not) are all having sex with each other. Also, I think it's interesting to note that most physical interactions are initiated by Fang, the older sister, who's main priority is protecting and looking after her younger sister—it certainly matches the same energy you'll see from older sisters in JPN media who show love and comfort to their younger sisters.

Fang would "be everyone's enemy/tear the sky down" just to save Vanille and this is like "Snow's language" towards Serah? I mean, have you seen Supernatural? XD Also like, again, ANY JPN content with an older and younger sibling, whose sole motivation and characterization is protecting their younger sibling? It's called conviction (as we covered, Fang was created specifically to have for Vanille), and considering Serah and her happiness is Lighting's "reason for living and her greatest reward", who Lighting has "the same beloved feeling" for that is the same depth as Snow, is what, "coincidentally", Fang herself uses to motivate Lightning to keep going when she contemplates giving up, who Lightning does turn against Cocoon for in order to save, and who is THE most important component to Lightning's agency in the 3rd game and is the key to her character arc—I'm sure Lightning isn't far off from what Fang is. Again, there's the novella equating them, and also, Serah being reminded of Lightning when she finally meets Fang—this conviction to protect and save your loved ones is something, really, all the characters show. It isn't just Snow, nor is it just Fang. And, Fang just so happens to have this conviction in a way that has been repeatedly linked to "protecting Vanille, her younger sister".

Fang and Vanille having a "bond beyond family"? First, notice how family is still the basis of this bond, the conventional relationship type that is the most versatile AND the top signifier of closeness. So "bond" here isn't relationship type, it's in the same vein of the "reason for existing", "irreplaceable", "unbreakable", "most important thing", etc. descriptors that you get to show how a relationship goes beyond just a type, which all the above is beyond simply being family. The logic of romance being "beyond family" also doesn't make any sense because it literally is it's own sector in family—I mean, the conventional point of a romantic relationship is TO become family. Also for this specific phrase, funny enough, I've only ever seen it used platonically or specifically with no romanticism application, e.g. in Boruto, Sakura tells her daughter that her and Naruto became "more than family". It's like literally the same Kanji phrasing too (家族以上 - kazoku ijou). I haven't even seen it used in a romantic context, but I'm sure it very well could be. It's also funny that, Lightning says this about Fang and Vanille, of how Fang would "never just leave Vanille all alone", but "coincidentally" (this is getting fun, huh), Hope says Sazh had mentioned practically THE SAME THING about why they wanted to believe Lightning wasn't in the crystal, that Lightning wouldn't "just up and leave Serah like that".

Vanille's VA says she hopes the games will show how Fang and Vanille "have a bond more powerful than friendship"—I mean, yeah? They're family, something stronger than friendship. Bond-wise? Absolutely. They have a bond BEYOND even that. See the above, how is this specifically and only romantic? Keep in mind, this is also the same interview where Fang's VA directly says "To Fang, Vanille is like a younger sister", seeing herself in Fang because she has her own younger sister, and relates of the feeling of "protecting small children" that comes with this. Like you know, "coincidentally", like how Vanille as a younger sister is also "childlike" in disposition and a "cute, crybaby" to Fang. Neither this phrase or "bond beyond family" are inherently romantic, and they're very applicable to other multiple relationship types because it's for the sake of describing the strength of a bond.

Fang and Vanille still live with each other at the end of LR? You mean, two people who have lived together since they were children as a close-knit family, have a whole arc involving them separating and reuniting in BOTH games, and are thrust into a new world with the two still being each other's closest family? A world of which is also still very different than the one they came from? You mean two people like THAT would still live together? I am shocked and dismayed. I feel a little sassy here because, c'mon. I'd also like to point out that the idea of "never being apart/leaving each other's side" is congruent with their history, but also is something expressed in the storytelling of Vanille's fear of loneliness, in which even WAY back in the FFXIII novelization Zero Promise, she expresses to Fang “We might be orphans, but we were raised together. We’re family. We can protect everyone together. We’ll be together forever… no matter what happens, we’ll never be apart.” when being turned into L'Cie. So, it's very fitting, but also still within the context that is repeatedly there.

Let the material speak for itself. Which it does. A lot. And you don't have to do much other than just finding it and absorbing it. I feel like, there's STILL more that I could say, but this is the brunt gist of understanding Fang and Vanille.

[fallout-lou-begas]

one of my favorite relatively recent internet term developments is people calling themselves "enjoyers." like, "i'm a wrestling enjoyer" or "i'm a games enjoyer," etc. i feel like it has different connotations from calling yourself a "fan" of something, which i think is interesting: being an "enjoyer" seems more easygoing and less lifestyle-committal (you're not in a fandom for that thing, necessarily), but the enthusiasm is no less real. And you can be an enjoyer for anything, not just media ("i'm a daily walk enjoyer," "i'm a honey in tea enjoyer"), and describing oneself as an "enjoyer" feels most natural when it's for something either very general or very specific. And obviously the term "enjoyer" centers joy, which strikes me as being less critical of the thing you're an "enjoyer" of (and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, it's more just like you're just casually into it and are only into it because it's fun or good, and if it stops being fun or good you won't be into it anymore). i'm pretty sure that the origin stems from the "the noun verber has logged on" types of posts, with "enjoy(er)" being the verb that stuck.

but another interesting observation about "enjoyers" to me is that I've seen people use it to describe what turns them on: e.g., "sweaty armpit enjoyers," "monster sex enjoyers," and when it isn't just sort of a tongue-in-cheek downplaying of how much someone is actually into something (like picture someone sweating profusely and panting and saying "yeah I enjoy this a normal amount"), this language strikes me as affording people to be more open about what might be their kinks or fetishes without requiring those people to commit to crossing some imaginary threshold of calling them kinks and fetishes as such. this is value-neutral to me IMO, like i don't think it's necessarily some abject self-distancing or whatever, since I can think of a couple reasons why people would do that (lack of "real" experience with the thing meaning they only sort of enjoy it in theory, or maybe they're finding a middle ground between non-interest and "especial" interest as they may or may not be easing into it) but again i just find the ways that I see "enjoyer" get used online to be really interesting. i'm something of a linguistic evolution of the word "enjoyer" enjoyer yk?

[thefirstknife]

so, i have a question regarding the whole "rat" discourse regarding Drifter and Eris. people keep saying it's racist of Eris, but... isn't Eris literally southeast Asian too? i'm struggling to find it but i could have sworn you had a post about her being Asian.

i definitely agree with your points that the nicknames have been handled badly and definitely should stop (especially being used by non-asian people in fandom), but i feel like it's not as black and white as people have been treating it when it comes to the actual interactions between Eris and Drifter (i say all this as a woc; i absolutely don't want to defend any of the potential bigotry behind it, but it seems like a lot of people are spinning the harshest bad faith takes on it when Eris is literally also Asian and the point of her calling him "rat" was really clearly supposed to be about the fact that he lives in the basement and is generally a shifty character.)

I'm not sure about Eris; it's really hard to tell. There are HCs that she might also be South East or East Asian, but we don't have any definitive proof. I definitely like HCing her as such but we can't really prove it, not to my knowledge at least. If there's conclusive evidence please drop it my way!

Either way, even if she is, I think the problem is still about how this is perceived by the players. A lot of players aren't comfortable with it, and wouldn't be comfortable even if Eris was Asian herself. There's also the issue of who wrote it at Bungie; white people writing Asian characters using slurs is kinda icky. But I don't know the identity of all people who are in charge of writing it so there's that. The issue still remains though, in how it's perceived by the players that are affected and also those that aren't.

Most claim it's not an issue at all, if they're even informed on it, so you have a lot of non-Asian fans just perpetuating it over and over in fanart, fanfics and elsewhere in the community which leads to Asian fans having to listen this term being used casually outside of the game. That's a bigger issue in my opinion, rather than the mechanics of Eris and Drifter using it in the game.

I think that current writers at Bungie are simply not informed about it (because after the initial usage in Arrivals, they stopped for 2 years) and don't understand the bigotry behind the term and are trying to use it for Drifter being a shifty character and Eris using that as an insult. I am very confused when they try to pass it off as a cutesy petname because Eris is clearly using it to annoy him and he doesn't like it. So I cannot for the life of me see the "cute" in it.

For what it's worth, I do genuinely believe it's just people at Bungie not knowing; I don't want to assume that someone is doing it on purpose to be anti-Asian. I think they possibly saw the stuff from Arrivals and wanted to emulate it and they personally see it as something cute without knowing that the term has nasty connotations against Asian people when used on Asian people. Even if used by other Asians; non-Asian people will certainly repeat it when they hear it. And ofc, in this case, Eris and Drifter have no agency of their own since they're characters, so they do and say things that their writers direct them to do and say. If those writers aren't Asian themselves, then whatever Eris is doesn't really matter.

I think that for the sake of safety, the best would be to just not use it. That includes Bungie as well, though I don't know if we can get them to do that. So the next best thing is that we as a fandom refrain from it. Not everyone minds it in the same way, but some are genuienly hurt and put off by it so it really costs us nothing to refrain.

[destinyc1020]

Confession, anons who send the same message to MANY blogs are annoying! I see this with antis a lot, where the same message will be posted on more than one blog and it's like okay, this anon just went around to all the blogs and copied and pasted their message everywhere? What's the point? That's a way to waste valuable time. Which leads me to another confession, I think a lot of anons here could benefit from stepping away from screens for a bit. A lot of anons sound like fandom is an anxiety for them, and they're too concerned about what Twitter thinks or says. And I feel that, I get pissed every time I see someone dissing Tom or Z especially since they seem like such sweet people, but fandom should be for fun, it should be a reprieve from our stressful lives. It's worth it to focus on something else for a while. This especially is true for antis, I can't fathom why they are spending so much time in their life being so nasty to strangers online when they could be doing a hobby they love, or following something else that makes them happy.

Thanks for your confession Anon 😊

1st Point - Oh girl, I can't stand those CAPER's either lol!!! I call them "Copy and Pasters" lol 😅🤣 Like, you didn't even care enough to write me an original msg?? LOL! At least, if you're gonna troll, try to make it not so OBVIOUS that you've sent the same msg to various different blogs lol.

2nd Point - Yea, I def think some fans need to step away from the internet, or even just step AWAY from certain fandoms if they are causing them THIS much anxiety, stress, and turmoil. 😔 Like you said, stanning should be fun! I'm actually starting to dislike the word "stan", because it kind of has a negative connotation.... 👀 I'd rather just be a regular fan honestly. Not some weirdo online who's starting fights with other fans in other fandoms, or causing a ruckus against other actors/celebrities just because I "stan" my fave. To me, being a fan of a celebrity is just NOT that serious. 😅

[applestorms]

i just binge-played off over the course of a couple days so let's relate that back to homestuck now

exactly what the title says. WARNING for spoilers of off, undertale, & omori (and homestuck. obviously), all fairly minor but involving some of talk about endings, as well as warning for canon-typical suicide talk (distri moment)

TLDR: off & undertale both use meta elements in a neat way, especially for their more horrific/fucked up parts, ult. dirk is definitely being puppetted by something (lord english, it's lord english).

so just as the title says, i've recently spent the last few days playing through the game off (also yume nikki but i haven't found a homestuck connection there so i guess you all will have to wait for that essay), and after poking around a bit for other interpretations of the themes & story i stumbled across this video that's given me some ideas about the post-canon content again, since i apparently can't stop relating everything back to that. specifically, the conclusion that he comes to near the end about the "real" story of off being a kind of parody of other rpgs where you mindlessly follow a protagonist's divine mission while actually just brutally exterminating/destroying an entire world of beings reminded me a lot of a criticism i heard of the epilogues that said it felt like the creators just watched the hbomberguy undertale video and decided to do that, but badly.

i talked about this a bit in my last essay about the post-canon stuff (don't be surprised if you missed that one btw, i got nervous and buried it under a mountain of reblogs ;v;), but one of the things that really fucking gets my goat about the epilogues & hs^2 is the fact that the creators both 1. talk down to the audience so goddamn much, and 2. are actively antagonistic to the audience, in a way that even homestuck proper never really felt, which, just to say, is also weird as hell to me because homestuck wasn't exactly nice to its audience either?? there has always been this back and forth between audience & creator in this fandom that is a prominent underlying dynamic in both the story itself & responding fanworks (a notable example being theater of coolty, which i personally interpret to be more of a character study of hussie rather than dirk), but even ignoring the history of twitter battles & literal petitions to get creators off the team, post-canon homestuck wants to make you fucking hurt and it refuses to be subtle about that fact.

anyways, here's a couple sections working through my thoughts on all that into something slightly more coherent.

1. off & purification (ft. undertale, omori, & yume nikki)

one of the things that really stood out to me throughout my playthrough of off these last couple days is the ways in which "purification," as a concept is associated with the mission of the batter, and, more broadly, all of the heavily religious connotations associated with his extermination of/destruction of the world.

a cool feature of the games that i've been playing recently (e.g. off & yume nikki) is seeing retroactively how they influenced other wildly popular games that i've played before that came out after (namely, undertale & omori). in particular, this more recent generation seems to take huge inspiration from the previous specifically in some of their most fucked up/horror-related elements, largely through the use of similar imagery/ideas that are then incorporated into the context of a new, clearer storyline. a good example of this is how black space in omori takes a lot from the imagery/mechanics of yume nikki (sleeping, doors, fucked up rooms with weird floors, etc.) but re-contextualizes it within the storyline of sunny's trauma/mental state as presented through the earlier sections of the game.

undertale does this too, taking both from yume nikki and, for what i'm focusing on here, off. from what i can tell, undertale seems to have taken a lot of inspiration from off in the creation of both its genocide route and the more meta elements of the game in general, which is interesting to me specifically in the interpretation of off it gives back retrospectively.

if you haven't watched it (though you really should it's only like ten minutes long) the key point that the hbomberguy video about undertale revolves around is the idea that at some point the game actively wants you to stop playing it and let the story & characters go. this is most obvious throughout the genocide route where characters in the game repeatedly & explicitly tell the player to give up, go back, and leave them the fuck alone, but notably also at the end of a true pacifist run where upon reopening up the game flowey pops up to tell the player to leave everyone be & let them enjoy their happy ending.

the divine quest of purification that the batter goes on throughout off (as is implied through his own words) is a lot less overt about the fact that its just murder & destruction but that element is definitely there, especially when revisiting the zones post-purification. the batter, bluntly speaking, gives no shits about the fact that he destroying everything in his path, even when enemies start switching from ghostly specters to "burned" people (or coughing children). if anything, destruction of the world is his outright goal as evidenced by the ending w/ the titular flipping of the switch "off," and he seems more surprised to come across people that claim to be happy when running through the area of cannibalism sugar drugs in zone 3 than all of the typical misery elsewhere. the repeated use of the word "purification," & heavy religious symbolism found throughout the game give this path of destruction a very different connotation to undertale's genocide route, however.

this ties into the use of meta elements in both games, which are also quite different: where undertale explicitly appeals to the player in quite a few instances when it's trying to get players to stop playing/taunting them about saves & whatnot, off only breaks the fourth wall in a few notable places, primarily through the judge & batter's dialogue at the start & end of the game as well as the character zacharie, all of whom directly refer to the player as a separate entity in control of the batter, slightly different to how undertale distinguishes the player character both as frisk vs. chara but also as powerful player/human vs. npc/monster* (since flowey is also equated w/ the player through his ability to utilize saves).

*deltarune also hammers this shit in even more w/ the opening character creation sequence & the fact that you have to enter two names, for creation & creator.

so- how does all of this relate to homestuck's post-canon? one word: puppets. (and dirk. it's always dirk)

2. homestuck^2 hates you & wants you to know it (dirk & puppets)

the epilogues begin with a nightmare wherein john watches the entirety of paradox space, reality as he knows it, begin to fall into a crack in the void. the meaning of this dream is made very clear over the course of a conversation with rose soon after: the story is in danger of becoming "non-canon," after too many years without an official continuation, and if john wants to stop that from happening he's going to have to make a big decision. meat or candy: either john directly tries to deal with the leftover major plotholes of the original story, enacting the previously foreseen events of the masterpiece in order to stop lord english, or he can choose to stay on earth-c and continue with the rest of his life as is.

one thing that only gets more and more overt the more i read through the post-canon content, whether that be the actual material released or authors notes from the patreon archive, is the fact that these two timelines were built from the start to be nightmares of slightly different flavors. i've talked about this many times, and there's honestly so many things pointing to this that i think it'd be more helpful if i just wrote it out as an actual list by this point, so here you fuckin go:

calliope compares the decision between meat & candy to a coin flip, invoking the image of terezi's coin flip that led to the killing of vriska & thus the game over timeline (HS^2:406)

in the smut drawing conversation, caliborn strikes down the idea of a dirkjake drawing specifically because the colors green & orange invoke the image of pumpkins which he doesn't like, instead preferring meat & candy (A6A3:4971), thus tying the epilogues to the whims of homestuck's biggest endgame villain

another connection to caliborn: despite having 43 & 40 chapters for meat & candy respectively, each route of the epilogues is split into 8 sections, reflecting the fact that LE gets 8-ball eyes midway through act 7

meat & candy also reflect the kind of content that caliborn (as a stand-in for the kinds of annoying fanboys hussie hates) loves, w/ brutal violence, death, & a power-struggle involving alt. calliope in the meat route, and the horrors of heterosexual marriage & reproduction in candy

ult. dirk in particular seems to take a lot of influence from the more LE/caliborn-connected splinters of himself- the fact that there seems to be more of a focus on dirk & jake's relationship in particular in the post-canon content also points to more of caliborn's underlying influence since they're very connected to him (both thematically through their struggles w/ masculinity & their literal connections in the lore as the boys that caliborn is the closest to as he literally looks up to them as inspiration e.g. LE's outfit matching jake's, etc. etc.)

also when it comes to narrators, note that in meat the fight is between ult. dirk & alt. calliope for control over the story while in candy (as the archived patreon commentary notes very pointedly) it is unclear who the narrator actually is

the routes are also just. fucking bad, to an extreme that is both phrased initially like a joke through the numerous ao3 tags & very carefully, thoroughly executed. we begin with a timeskip and every character is just spontaneously the absolute worst version of themself w/ quite minimal explanation as to how they got that way other than "adulthood is just Like That". even ignoring Absolute Horrors like the dirk suicide chapter & the gamzee/jane breast milk thing, you don't tag and execute the concept of gerrymandering for no reason

anyway, there are two main ways that this connects to the undertale genocide/off discussion from before: meta elements & nightmarish world destruction. but first, speaking of meta elements:

2.1 the post-canon creators don't understand the concept of what "canon" means and they ain't gonna let us forget that

homestuck is really fucking good at making up the weirdest shit imaginable but presenting it in such a natural, meticulously careful way that by the time you're saying sentences like, "He took the hammer which had been captchalogued into his sylladex and made it his strife specibus," you barely even realize you're doing it. the singular exception to this is the use of the word "post-canon" in all content created after the run of the original comic, which fails so incredibly to establish itself as a new term that it's honestly kind of embarrassing. every single time i have to write the term "post-canon" in relation to homestuck i cringe a little bit inside at just how unnatural it feels and frustrating it is to type. imo there are a few distinct reasons why the attempt to call the epilogues/homestuck^2 post-canon fails so badly:

"canon" as a term already has a very strongly established practical use within fandom: namely, to distinguish between original ("canon") works & fan-made creations like fanfiction, fan art, etc. this is to the point that an alternative, related term, "fanon," is also used to distinguish creations on the other side of the line.

the use of "canon" in fandom is thus typically quite intuitive, in that a creation is either "official," (created by the same person & set within the same universe, created by a person closely related to the original creator & clearly established to be connected to the original work, etc.) or not. there is no in-between of canon vs. fanon, it is simply a clear line distinguishing between what is considered official and what isn't.

in the cases where it isn't necessarily as clear if something is canonical, whether that be due to the work being done by a different creator, long after the work is over, etc. (e.g. the yume nikki comic, jk rowling's dumb baseless twitter ramblings, etc.) the word "canon" is often dropped entirely with the context of the new works instead being invoked to clarify the distinction

people tend to only feel the need to distinguish between the original/"canonical" run of a story & its new content/additions when they fucking hate the new additions. nobody says that deltarune is not canonical just because it doesn't connect to the original undertale universe, they just say its in a different universe & take note of the implications. on the other side of things, even ignoring rowling's stupid ass tweets, people have been ignoring the epilogue to the final book of harry potter for ages simply because it sucks & many people hate the kind of future it presents

"post-canon" does not make any goddamn sense. no amount of ao3 formatting or desperate pleas from the creators can take away from the fact that the epilogues & hs^2 show up on the official website, were in part outlined by the original creator, & pick up the story right from where the comic ends. i can turn around in my seat right this second & look to my right to see a shelf where the words "THE HOMESTUCK EPILOGUES" is printed twice on the spine of the official goddamn book (don't ask why i bought that thing. i was in a distraught mental state in 2019 okay) printed by viz fucking media, come the fuck on you guys.

this is all to say that the meta elements of the epilogues & hs^2 (okay i'm gonna start saying post-canon again but remember. remember) is pretty fucking weird to begin with, and that's not even accounting for the direct antagonism that the continuations take when addressing the audience.

a key quality of the epilogues that make them come across as particularly nightmarish comes from the fact that so many aspects seem to be specifically designed to hurt the audience as much as physically possible. characters like jane & dirk fall into villainy and become the worst versions of themselves and more with very little regard for the reasons why they might've been sympathetic originally. even outside of those two obvious examples, there are a lot of elements that seem to only exist to make the audience hurt. the most overtly edgy example of this is the chapter in candy where dirk very graphically commits suicide (which comes entirely out of nowhere with basically no warning- the trigger warning wasn't added until later), but there are a shitton of minor examples that slowly build up to make even just reading through the epilogues an agonizing experience if you ever bothered to care about any of the characters involved. imo even characters like dave, karkat, & vriska, all of whom are generally considered to have gotten through alright by the greater fandom, suffer when it comes to characterization, dave & karkat from how much it feels like they've backtracked on character development when it comes to self awareness, and vriska because the creators are frankly unable to face any of the major character flaws that made her actually interesting, instead preferring to depict her as this tired hero above everyone else come back to earth to save everyone from the horrific versions of themselves the authors twisted them into to create plot.

what really stands out throughout all of this though, and is the reason why that connection between the epilogues & the hbomberguy undertale video was originally made, is the fact that the epilogues contextualize all of this suffering as a punishment for the audience wanting more out of the story- a point which especially stands out since, as far as i can remember, end of comic homestuck fans really didn't give that much of a shit about a continuation? while the response to act 7 & homestuck's ending was fairly disappointed, and there was some talk about a continuation after it got teased by some elevated fans with a closer connection to hussie, the consensus that i remember was that the epilogues were the snapchat update and that was it. lasting homestuck fans from 2016-2019 seemed to have come to understand that the ending was unsatisfying due to being planned far in advance and/or executed quickly so that hussie could get the story fuckin finished already after the last few years of long breaks & legal disputes surrounding what would be hiveswap, and many of the people who stuck with the fandom after the comic ended were late fans that were already well-acquainted with archive reading & thus cared much less about the original ravenous upd8 culture. the epilogues coming right out the gate trying to punish readers for wanting more therefore not only felt cruel, but confusing considering the more recent vibe of what the fandom felt like.

so, to link this all back together- between these three stories (off, undertale, & homestuck's post-canon) we end up with three different takes on how to incorporate meta elements w/ horror:

for off, meta elements are largely incorporated through the separation of the player & the batter, with certain notable characters referring directly to the player (or even referring to the game itself, as in the case of zacharie). the destruction of the world is given the connotations of a religious crusade through the batter's talk of "purification," with the supposed "official" ending of the game leaving the world entirely destroyed and gone, and the "special" bonus ending (where you pick the judge) leaving it desaturated and depopulated. a potential interpretation of this can thus be that the game acts as a meta commentary on other games of the same genre, twisting the typical routine of, "play as a dude going a something something vague mission for justice while destroying/murdering everything in your path," into something more explicitly horrifying. the path of divine destruction that the batter goes on w/ little to no regard for the suffering of the world is something that typically makes players quite uncomfortable, many people choosing to side with the judge by the end of the game despite siding with the batter being the "official" default ending.

for undertale, meta elements are utilized through characters like flowey & sans, most obviously in the genocide route where characters actively ask you to stop playing but also in true pacifist where flowey asks you to let them keep their happy ending. the horror of the game comes from the fact that the player has power unmatched by any of the characters in-game through the use of saves, clarified within the lore as a distinction between humans (players) & monsters (npcs) with some timeline fuckery thrown in for flavor. "punishment" of the player is introduced through sans & his genocide-run boss battle following the judgement of the player, which notably only happens when someone explicitly goes through and grinds out the killing of every single major & minor fight in every area of the game.

for homestuck's post-canon, meta elements are utilized through characters directly engaging with the concept of what it means to be "canon," and narration fuckery, as seen most notably through the character of ult. dirk taking over the narration in the meat timeline. nightmarish elements are present throughout the structure & content of each timeline largely through how they relate to LE, homestuck's main villain. "punishment" of the reader is introduced by contextualizing the inclusion of the most terrible elements as a way of punishing audiences for wanting more, enacted by the continuation's creators.

SO. puppets fuck i forgot about the puppets

3. what kind of villain is dirk trying to be, actually (okay we're actually talking about the puppet thing now)

at the end of off, the separation between the batter & the player is again emphasized through the final decision where you choose between siding with the batter (the "official" ending) or the judge (the "special" ending). no matter what you choose, the battle ends up fairly easy, affirming the fact that it is up to your choice as the player to decide who wins the fight. the player is fairly explicitly denoted as the puppeteer, and if the batter succeeds in his mission to destroy the world, the blame is placed on the player for going through with playing the game.

in undertale, the identity of the human moving through the underground is different depending on which route you take: frisk in the pacifist route, and chara/the player-entered name in genocide. at the end of the genocide route, chara takes over entirely, stopping the player from even being able to get the final hit in to kill the final boss before killing the player themself.

there is a pretty distinct difference between how off & undertale are able to tell their story in the context of a game vs. how homestuck tells its story as a mostly set-in-stone comic (at least now), but the key theme continuing throughout all of these stories as far as i see it comes down to one thing: puppets. WHICH is especially significant considering the fact that dirk, The Puppet Guy, is now one of the big post-canon villains, in part taking on the role of LE in parallel to jane taking on the role of HIC.

this post has been fucking long enough so i'll get to the point already: the whole path of destruction and quest to purify the world that the batter goes through in off feels very reminiscent of some of dirk's actions in the post-canon content, and that seems significant when considering who dirk is likely being puppetted by, LE (homestuck has a reader, but no player, so who is controlling who is marginally less obvious).

that's probably not too big of a surprise, especially considering that long ass list i wrote out a couple sections ago, but i think it could be notable in trying to contextualize dirk's actions throughout the story. in particular, it stands out to me that dirk's first big action within the meat timeline before going totally batshit is helping jane with her political campaign against karkat, which as we can see in the candy timeline is a terrible fucking idea considering she seems to be going right down the same path of fascism & troll eugenics in meat.

dirk isn't stupid, but here especially it's weird that he would be so down for jane getting political power, considering 1. he knows jane very well (very well, if we consider his heart aspect & ability to read people due to that), and 2. he knows the condesce very well. dirk is a fucking historian combing through documentation of the end of humanity, he's aware of what a global dictatorship looks like. he's smart, but as i said in my plato intelligence post, he's not necessarily on the same level as other omniscient narrators. it's the same problem as before, dirk is pretending to be the puppeteer but really has very little control over the actual situation. the idea that his "ascent to power" in the epilogues is actually just him becoming everyone's brain ghost has a lot of merit to me because of this.

in a similar vein, i've been thinking about this post a lot in terms of how ultimate dirk has taken on a lot of the traits of dave's bro (who also could fit in w/ the "who's the puppet/really in control" theme w/ how he is potentially being puppetted by a literal puppet. god there's too many fucking puppets). that leads me to a pretty major & interesting question to consider too: does ultimate dirk even have a soul? lots of implications depending on how you answer that. i made a joke not long ago about ult. dirk being just another dirk splinter that he created while attempting to deal with all the dirk splinters, but that idea might have more weight to it along these lines.

counterpoint though, i have to question if ult. dirk's goals really fall along the same lines of "purification" as the batter. his goal of creating a new sburb session (? iirc)/world creation is pretty much the direct opposite of the batter's world destruction, but i think we all know the prince's relationship with destruction by now. conclusion: the baby is 2 was the correct timeline all along. babies are the true ultimate creation, let's make this shit text already. (sorry, i've been watching a lot of evangelion lately.)

anyways. this post has been a WIP for a couple days and i'm starting to seriously lose the thread of the original thought, so i guess i'll just cut this off here with a couple minor sidenotes. this all came to kind of a simple, somewhat obvious point, but i think the exploration itself was decently interesting so. yeah!

sidenote1: sugar & lollipops

what is it with sweets being the most fucked up drugs imaginable in these stories. actually no, i get it, sugar is the closest you can get to the idea of drugs as a child, that kinda works. homestuck does have a surprising lack of cannibalism though, like even the trolls-eating-grubs thing is pretty weak. sad.

sidenote2: jake & religion

just thought it was interesting that the batter's purification quest has so many religious undertones (the add-ons having the roles of "father, son, & holy spirit," the names of other characters, etc.), though i don't have much of a connection here other than that jake (& karkat, really) also have a lot of the same thematic associations. not that big of a deal considering, but kinda interesting to note nonetheless (maybe w/ some interesting implications for ult. jake???)

sidenote3: davesprite & namco high

absolutely could not find a place to shove this in but the davesprite route in namco high is so fucking meta, has anyone still in this fandom even played that thing? the justification there is that davesprite gained meta awareness as a sprite & game guide, which i guess carries over to namco high too. feels very reminiscent of a lot of ideas to show up more prominently later, at the very least. hm.

[threadsun]

YES YES YES YES !!! I really like when people rant about stuff !! Either from fandoms or just like how much they hate life, It’s like this sense of “omg they are being so real :0” and I love ranting as much as I love to hear it ! Plus I can get annoyed pretty easily when something doesn’t go the way I want,,, which is every time, so it’s fun to just rant about stuff,,, meaning that my friends might be tired of it— IT IS FUN THO PLS RANT WITH ME EVEN IF YOU DONT KNOW WTF IM TALKING ABOUT !!

-JDA here-

Oh !! That sounds really nice !! Silly how I know nothing about visual novels, they never really catch my attention cuz I’m dumb at reading, but then that one rabbit hole I told you happened and now im just waiting for news on every game- they’re silly !! And i like silly crazy guys !!

Same ! Lusting for characters is just oof— top tier, especially when you have someone to talk to about that one character !! Just bla bla about how much you love them !! Ooo so sweet !!

I don’t really have a type when it comes to fictional crushes,,, uh sometimes they’re cute and nice and others they’re not even human !! Ig they make me laugh then that’s all it takes.

Painful, the worst I’ve felt is have my feet paralyzed until I move them with my hand—

Im kinda curious about that silly power you have but tbh I think I’m too honest here so I don’t think it’ll be much of a challenge,,,

-also don’t Z post (but also PLEASE Z post) I will go feral and eat him yes this is a threat, for Z-

Exactly!!!!! I loooove when people rant at me about anything!!! In Yiddish there's this word, kvetch, which is sometimes used in English but they don't quite use it right? Kvetching has a more positive connotation in Yiddish, it's the Jewish tradition of complaining recreationally. Just like whining/ranting about shit for fun. It's one of my favourite things!

Silly crazy guys are great!!! Honestly, I have a bunch of different types when it comes to characters, but if you show me a pathetic man who looks like he'd whimper if I bit him, I'm melting. Or like an easily flustered monster!! Or a woman who's silly and goofy and causes problems on purpose!!

Oooof yeah paralysis sucks. I've started getting these muscle contractions that lock up whole sections of my body really painfully for a few minutes.

My silly little power is just being able to tell what kinks a person has just by looking at them. I have a 100% success rate so far, including people who told me I was wrong when I first did it and then came back later and was like "fuck you were right I was just in denial" lmao but my discord friends mostly like to use it by sending me a picture of a character so I can tell them what kinks they'd have.

>:3c no one can stop me Zposting!!!! I drew a really stupid lil comic of him that shows off how untrained I am at art and also how silly he is, I might post it heeheehoohoo

[poisonheadcrabsalesman]

1, 10, 11

Oh man I did reblog that ask game I guess I can have opinions that are my own on my own blog.

1 - the character everyone gets wrong

I feel like answering this is swinging a bat but there's so so many. I like aus and taking liberties but some of the takes I see are like... where is the canon basis? Where is the foundation of the character from the source material. I wanna play in this space with you and I also go ooc sometimes but like I see people on different planets. They massacre Chief, they destroy Palmer, and the tags are a barren wasteland with crossovers and nonsense galore.

10 - worst part of fanon

Dissenting / critical voices or different opinions are taken as personal attacks. People get weird about the Spartan augs and sex so fast but they don't explore it in a meaningful way. There's no room for romance or those developmental milestones when you're a child soldier from age 6 to 50+. I've seen people just be weird talking about it or they double down in the other direction or, and I do not mean this in a mean way - but an abused child soldier is not great ace rep. If someone has not had a chance to explore their feelings, maybe don't tout them as ace/aro rep. If it personally means something to you, go ahead, but there's connotations there too. Tread carefully.

Anyone who gives master chief long hair is wrong - I'm sorry but that man would not break regs and it would not fit in his helmet.

11 - number of fandom-related words you've filtered

Oh brother, I have so much shit blacklisted. Ask blogs, AU tags, character tags, weird offshoots or au versions of characters, ship tags, people's personal talking or art tags because my beloved friends like them or put them on my dash. I'm in my lane and half the posts I scroll past are blacklisted either from the [hellish improv machinima]. I live my life and others live theirs and we are all happy. I try to keep this blog positive but I'm not putting up with stupid shit or guilt trips

[zetasfilltheskies]

opinion on fandom culture in present?

well. engaging with content makes you a fan. i still love my bands, and my art, and my books - and all my interests, y’know. and i love talking about them with people, too. but the obsessive side’s never been for me. i’m not one to skewer someone for not knowing every little detail, and i’m not one to engage with that side either.

[aces-to-apples]

From the notes of this post:

@this-world-of-beautiful-monsters

Flippant answer:......and what about them?

Short answer: they're coming from a place of inherently bad faith and i block them on sight.

Long answer: If someone is racist then they will continue to be racist until or unless they make a personal decision to either change themselves or allow themselves to be changed by those around them. If i'm a racist person with a "fetish" for brown people then that simply has nothing to do with fictional clones in a galaxy far far away and everything to do with how i treat real actual human people who are alive. Such traits would exist within me regardless of which fictional characters i like to imagine kissing and would be entirely unaffected by people yelling about Oh The Humanity.

Frankly, I think the majority of accusations like the one mentioned above usually stem from one of these two mindsets: 1) "i don't like this/it makes me uncomfortable and therefore i will use buzzwords and innate desire of others not to cause each other harm to make people creating it feel bad for doing so", or 2) "i have trauma stemming from abuse/marginalization related to this thing being depicted, and this thing being depicted is genuinely triggering whatever trauma responses developed from the result of said abuse/marginalization and therefore in an effort to protect myself i will attempt to make it stop." One is lashing out because of entitlement, and one is lashing out because of trauma. Either way, it's still lashing out. It's still interacting with the worst faith imaginable for the sake of personal comfort, and sure, i take the second reason a hell of a lot more seriously but let's be honest, it's impossible to know which reason is behind it because, a) people lie, and b) both groups use the same tactics to achieve their ends: namely stalking, harassment, smear campaigns, and maliciously spreading misinformation. If someone's yelling into a microphone in front of a crowd that they saw goody proctor at the devil's sacrament, i'm not gonna give a shit about why they're saying it because the intended end result is the same.

I know it's become something of a stock phrase by this point but, truly, fandom is not activism. If you want to try to incorporate activism-adjacent education into what you put out into fandom, cool, hope that works out for you. There are lots of posts (and even entire blogs) dedicated to attempting to, for example, educate others in fandom about racist trends, stereotypes, portrayals, coding, etc., that are often found in fandoms and source materials alike. Personally i find them very informative and helpful. Some people will attempt to take that to heart and change their behavior, and some people will ignore it because they don't give a fuck, and an important skill to develop is knowing which one is necessary to not be a shit person.

If someone tells me "hey you wrote lavernius tucker as disliking his first name and considering he's a Black man with an unusual name that takes on a different connotation than it would with a white character" then i'll think about that seriously, come to a conclusion, and say "thank you so much for pointing that out, i didn't consider that at all when writing it and i will now change it and try to keep that in mind going forward." But if someone says "hey you're writing about brown men from unrealistic and fantastical origins finding love, romance, or even just sexual gratification with each other and that's racist and fetishizing because they look a lot alike" then i'll think about that seriously, come to a conclusion, and say "nah, that sounds like bullshit to me."

If i'm ever given to believe that i'm perpetuating some kind of racial stereotype, insensitively portraying characters of color, or harming actual human beings by writing a couple of clone troopers having sloppy makeouts with each other, i'll be sure to reevaluate. Until then, i block anyone i see who makes grand sweeping statements about the moral fiber of people who create fan content of two dudes fucking.

Also, this goes for every one of these types of accusations*: people aren't racist for shipping characters of color together, they aren't pedophiles for shipping minor/adult characters, they aren't abusers or abuse apologists for shipping enemies (or even, yes, canonically abusive characters), they don't want to fuck their relatives because they ship related characters, and they aren't groomers for posting or discussing smutty fanworks on the goddamn internet. Morality and ethics aren't defined by one's fictional interests, or by the microscopic slice of their rich internal life and world they deign to share with others on Tumblr, and fandom isn't fucking activism.

*and anything within fandom that can be defined as an accusation is automatically suspect for these exact reasons

[author-main]

Thoughts about how a lot of the time the fandom makes Wild the butt of the joke for being a "feral arsonist" (which if you do that, fair, I don't really care, I'm just bringing it up, I think it's funny too sometimes). And I just keep thinking about what if the rest of the Chain made jokes about him like that.

Being a feral arsonist is just Wild's personality, right? It's all he's seen as, right? So it's fine to make jokes at his expense about that and only that, right?

Anyways here are my thoughts that I've been festering in for a long time now:

Self-destructive tendencies; abuse--I think verbal, but maybe also emotional and/or psychological; also I swear a lot so just in case you don't like that.

Treat this as a writing prompt. Don't send me asks about this post, just put your response in the replies or reblogs.

Wouldn't you feel like absolute shit if your friend group made fun of you for this one thing you did all the time? Like this isn't a one-off "haha you did something dumb", this is "we're gonna bring this up every time we talk to the point where it kind of becomes your defining character trait and you have no control over it. But it's okay because we're all friends here, aren't we?" But if you bring it up and ask for it to stop, now you're the asshole. Isn't that... abusive?

I think about some incorrect quotes that folks post about Wild being a shit and the other Links either making fun of him over it, and I wonder what it would be like if the Chain actually treated him like that.

Maybe they don't mean what they're saying. Maybe they don't think they're hurting Wild whenever they make a joke like that. Maybe Wild DOES like to burn things from time to time. Maybe he IS a little feral. Maybe he's truly trying to help, maybe he doesn't realize what he's doing is wrong.

Maybe the Links are making these jokes while also still criticizing him for doing the things they're joking about.

Now, about that first paragraph... if your friends did that to you, would you feel inclined to leave them? Get better friends? Would you leave? Well, what if you couldn't leave? What if there was something out of your control that forced you to stay with these "friends"? What if you needed them? Wild can't just leave the Chain. He needs the others. Say the Chain acts like this, and he has no way of escaping that type of treatment.

After a while, would he start to believe it? That he's truly like that? Would you?

And let's not forget: Wild is an amnesiac. An amnesiac whose canon dialogue choices imply that he may forget things he was just told. So what if Wild also forgot his actions? What if he just believed every time the Links criticized him for a burning tree because he truly can't remember if that was his fault or not? What if he laughed along when they made fun of him. What if he started making jokes about himself too? You know, it's funny because it's true, right? Are they true? Wild doesn't really know. He doesn't remember destroying anything recently, but he doesn't remember a lot of things. The others' memories are much better than Wild's, so he trusts them. They must be telling the truth.

Every time they call Wild's name it's starting to get this negative connotation to it. Wild gets this sense that he's either going to get scolded or made fun of again. And he's not sure if he's sick of it. He's not sure if he can do anything about it... other than try to change himself.

Let's say, after a while, Wild's been restraining himself; trying to make sure he's doing nothing bad. He makes himself scarce during meals, and quieter when traveling. And... maybe the others notice. But Wild seems more behaved than he was when they first met him. He seems a lot more calm. So maybe things are alright.

The Chain's jokes and criticisms die down. But Wild still makes the jokes. He still tenses up when there's something broken or on fire, or when the older Links are upset/annoyed. Hell, he might try to fix problems he believes he caused but didn't.

Whenever someone calls Wild's name, he still replies with "I'm sorry".

[bookofmirth]

I know your a really big Mor fan which might contribute to your bias towards her but I personally don’t like her. Her attitude and written presence as “a dreamer in the court of night mares” sets her up as a token “I’m not like other girls”

For all the power she has written to have, we don’t see it. What is the purpose of her character? One would think she was meant to be an advocate for women but she hasn’t done anything for the women in the court of night mares. The book makes her seem other, but the book also tells us that she wasn’t the only one struggling. She was just the only one who had Rhysand as a cousin.

She is also incredibly ignorant with her racists comments about Illyrians and her willful blindness about what the women suffer with over there. Out of everyone, she should know what it’s like. Which is one of the many reasons why I hope she doesn’t end up with emerie, she doesn’t deserve her.

I don’t think Emerie would appreciate how she treated Nesta either. She was a bitch, who saw someone who was centuries younger than her and who was already breaking and thought to compare her to her abusers who nailed her and left her for dead. Told her that she doesn’t deserve the kindness and patience shown to her by others. I lost all my respect for her at that point tbh. For all her grandstanding about truth, she couldn’t be more wrong.

And her issue with Nesta over Cassian and how she might take him from her and further complicate her Az situation is sad. Nesta’s only interaction with her was that dress situation. But then Mor comes out of nowhere and says she mistreats Cassian…when all their supposed “fights” are offscreen? When the book even describes their tension as “mutual”? When literally nobody else seems to interfere in the same degree as her? When Nesta genuinely asks if he’s okay in the war and Mor lashes out?

I disagree with your comment that Nesta treated her court poorly. Yeah she didn’t like them but they were Fae and generations of mistrust doesn’t change that overnight. Feyre is a testament to that because it took her time to see the Fae differently too. Yet despite that, Nesta was friends with Amren and neutral with Az. Nesta and Rhysand barely even interacted in the trilogy and it wasn’t until ACOSF where we are told she hates him. And how he seems to relish her fear of him. And he’s definitely given her a reason to. So who exactly did she irrevocably hurt?

This was long but I actually had time today to rant a bit.

I was going to delete this ask because you came off kinda rude, decided to rant about a character you know I like, and I'm honestly not sure what you wanted to get from this because there isn't a question. There's no way I'm going to agree with you here, and I think you know that, so this all seems like it would be better done as a post on your own blog. I suppose I appreciate that you sent this to me rather than vaguing me? But then I thought, well some of the things you said are inaccurate, so... I'll clear those things up.

your bias

First off, this. Bias? This is a fandom. Am I biased because I like elucien more than I like nessian? Are you biased because you clearly prefer Nesta over Mor? If I write a fanfic for elucien, but then don't write separate versions for feysand and nessian, am I biased? If an artist does a series of drawings for certain pairings and not others, are they biased? lol no. There is no need for objectivity in fandom. We all like what we like and there's really nothing that deep about it. No one has to be "fair" in this space. Otherwise everything would be neutral and that would be really boring. We all have our preferences, and that's... okay! "Bias" has a negative connotation, and there is no need for a negative connotation in fandom spaces where it's all different strokes for different folks.

Were you trying to insinuate that you, because you like Nesta, are like... better than I am? Or more objective than I am? Because uh... I got some quotes from the book for you.

Her attitude and written presence as “a dreamer in the court of night mares” sets her up as a token “I’m not like other girls”

So I disagree with this because the whole "I'm not like other girls" is an inherently gendered phenomenon. It's a way for women to put one another down, and Mor literally doesn't do that in a gendered way. Mor being different from her family/the CoN has nothing to do with her gender, and everything to do with their cruelty versus her strength and optimism.

Did we all collectively forget the fact that the library, you know, where all the priestesses and other victims of sexual assault trauma go to heal, that's Mor's thing? Rhys started the library as a refuge for women, and Mor brings women there to heal. All the time. She brought Clotho there, and Gwyn, and countless others. I keep seeing people say that Mor doesn't help other women, and I'm sorry but 1) since when is she the High Lady that that responsibility is laid at her feet, and 2) she.... she literally does help other women???

She is also incredibly ignorant with her racists comments about Illyrians and her willful blindness about what the women suffer with over there.

This is factually untrue. She comments on the Illyrians *because* of what they do to women. That's... why all the characters talk about Illyrians in the way that they do.

Here is how other characters talk about Illyrians:

Eris in acosf: "the one the Illyrian brutes call Ramiel."

Nesta in acosf, yes she is guilty of this too: “Because Illyrians are backward and horrible.”

Amren in acomaf: “They’re barbarians,” Amren said, and neither Illyrian male objected.

Rhys in acomaf: “[Illyrians] are also brutal and backward, particularly in regard to how they treat their females.”

Azriel: they both knew Azriel would sooner disband and destroy Illyria than help it. Convincing their brother that the Illyrians were a people worth saving was still a battle amongst the three of them.

So why this special energy for Mor?

The real issue is how SJM has written the Illyrians. She's got the characters in a catch 22 because either they say shit that is racist (and as you can see above, pretty much everyone does), or they give Illyrians a pass for how they treat women. SJM is at fault here for writing a sexist as hell culture peopled by non-white characters. Do the characters talk poorly about them? Yeah. That's not unique to Mor, though. It has nothing to do with her character, and everything to do with how SJM has written the Illyrians.

Re: Emerie, they were clearly written to have interest between them and we are 95% sure Mor is getting a book, so I doubt it. I don't need all my friends to like/hate the same people that I like/hate, and I doubt Emerie would either.

And the whole Cassian thing, I just... don't care. I don't have the energy to care. It's over, it's done, Mor helped Nesta learn the dance for the CoN, they're over it and I'm over it.

compare her to her abusers who nailed her and left her for dead.

I do keep seeing this though, and no? Mor was not abused by the entirety of the Court of Nightmares, she was abused by her family, mainly her father. Mor did not compare Nesta to her father. And sorry, but I'm going to keep saying this - Nesta did fucking great in the CoN. She was badass and got Eris on the hook that night. Mor was right. Remember how out of place Elain looks? Nesta fit right in. And again, that's not Mor saying that Nesta is like her abusers, because the CoN did not abuse Mor, her family did. But the CoN is a cutthroat place and Nesta thrived.

I disagree with your comment that Nesta treated her court poorly. Yeah she didn’t like them but they were Fae and generations of mistrust doesn’t change that overnight. Feyre is a testament to that because it took her time to see the Fae differently too.

While the part about humans and fae's attitudes towards one another is true, the key word here is "behavior".

At what point was Feyre (or Elain) intentionally cruel to any of the fae just for being fae? That was a choice Nesta made, to be on the offense. Yeah there were a lot of feelings there and they were pretty much justified because of history, but she didn't have to be cruel to a group of fae who were trying to welcome her, who she knew had helped her sister, who had lifted them out of poverty. Nesta being cruel was a choice, and in acosf we know that it's a choice she frequently regrets! So I'm not sure why we would want to erase that from her character. The story isn't "Nesta was sad and everyone was mean to her because of it." The woman gave better than she got.

The whole thing about Mor's role in the story, I have complained about this myself, but that doesn't make her a bad character, it makes SJM an annoying writer for just sidelining characters all the time. "What's her purpose" well ask SJM? She hasn't made it clear what Mor's powers are, but that doesn't make Mor a bad character, it makes sjm a sometimes lazy writer. Again, it seems like the things you have an issue with aren't Mor as a character, but sjm phoning some of this shit in.

I'm never going to like Nesta as a person. I think she's a super interesting and complex character, but I like other characters way more than I like her, including Mor. Everyone is free to enjoy whichever characters they like, that's great. But I think that stepping away from the fandom kool-aid and rereading the scenes from the books is helpful sometimes. Or don't, because most of the time we just like the characters we like and we don't have to justify it.

[bookwyrminspiration]

Hello! I’ve tried to contact one of the users here who’s making a lot of misguided comments about Instagram trying to explain they’re making things worse, but they’re ignoring me. I don’t want to make a big deal out of this, but I think this has happened after people misinterpreted a post saying that the fintan issue happened because the humor is different than in the Instagram, so it caused confusion. As someone who is a poc I’m a little confused about the way tumblr has brought race and racism into the conversation as well. Thank you for reading =)

Hello to you, too! And thank you for reaching out. I'll just start by saying that it's possible that the person you reached out to just hasn't responded yet if you sent them an ask or something. Punctuality varies between the person and the day! But I also don't have all the details of what you've tried to do so maybe that's irrelevant.

That aside, I agree with your points. I don't want this to be a big deal either and am really hoping it doesn't escalate into something significant, as discourse like that is never fun.

However, I don't think the comments being made are helpful, just like you said! I noticed that in the first "round" of discourse a little bit ago it seemed like everyone started with more of a "lol seriously??" attitude, not thinking too much of it. From there that turned into something more significant until we had to roll it back and go "wait hang on jokes aside" and have a serious moment. With the jokes right now, it seems to be a trend of how things are handled with light-heartedness first until it becomes apparent something else is needed.

This is just my personal opinion and approach, but I think when it comes to conflict it's best to start serious and clarify things before making jokes specifically to prevent escalation. Starting with jokes, I think, has a higher risk of leading to misinterpretation like what you're talking about with the humor confusion.

As for the race issue, I believe it was brought up when Tumblr's humor was specifically called "white humor" with the connotation that that was a bad or lesser thing. It at the very least was not meant as anything good. So then the topic of Tumblr having a lot of poc (myself included! hello! buddies!) was brought up and alongside topics about race and racism. So I think race was first brought up on IG and racism on Tumblr, though it didn't have to do with the original topic.

Slightly unrelated, but I think there's an element of...superiority? On both sides. Or like each is trying to find the moral high-ground and be better in some way, which I don't think is helping the situation. On IG there's posts (from one person I believe) asking why the Tumblr fandom is so upset at being called white and asking rhetorical questions like whether or not they're allowed to make jokes about white people anymore, which feels (at least to me) like it's using race to try and claim a moral high ground. The same way people on Tumblr have talked about how some of the things they like (gay ships, diverse headcanons) that are diverse would be an affront to everyone on IG and therefore they are morally superior. (to my mutuals: I greatly appreciate you and like interacting, but these are my thoughts)

It just doesn't seem like a productive conversation on either side or an accurate representation of each other, even if it's fun or entertaining for some. It feels like it's assuming worse of people, but maybe I'm wrong about that. After all, these are just observations.

I'll stop there, but thank you for reaching out and being so respectful about it! I really appreciate the opportunity to talk it through. I think I'm forgetting something, but my overall conclusion is that I agree with you! Race wasn't part of the original discussion and responses on both sides seem to be misrepresentative of each other and making things worse.

I hope you have a good day, night! And if there's anything else, my ask box is always open :)