#combat talks

[firekitten830]

Some thoughts about Miguel, the comics, and what it could mean for Beyond the Spiderverse

This post has spoilers in it! It also contains mentions of suicide. And it's also VERY long. Consider yourself warned.

Comic vs Movie Comparison

Going to be starting this off with comparing movie Miguel and comic Miguel. And to clarify before we get into it, I don’t think deviation from the comics is a bad thing, and I love both versions. Also worth mentioning that at the time of writing this I've only read the original series from 1992, Dark Genesis, and a couple of the temporal crossover stories (which I'm considering non-canon for the sake of this discussion). I might make another post like this once I've finished all of them.

Starting off with story deviation there's... not a lot for me to really say here, since we don’t know much about movie Miguel’s backstory aside from the part where he accidentally caused a universe to collapse, so there’s not a lot to point out in terms of story deviation yet. However his personality and behavior is a little bit different. He’s more serious in the movie. Now Miguel has always been more serious than most other versions of Spiderman, but in the comics he’s still humorous. His humor just tends to be more sarcastic and cynical (think a bit like Deadpool) rather than the quips and wisecracks you usually get with Spiderman. He’s pessimistic and actually pretty mean, especially when not in his Spiderman alter ego. I'll admit I do miss his sarcasm in retrospect, but at the same time it wouldn't really suit the role the movie has set him up to play. Plus his characterization in the movie is still super good, and I like it a lot.

Miguel in the comics does tend to be a lot less bouncy and acrobatic than most other spidermen, and that definitely shows in the movie too. But the movie did something I personally love, and pushed that aspect further, and made him almost animalistic rather than just a Spiderman that fights a bit more close quarters. He’s intimidating, he’s brutal, every move has weight and power that you can feel through the animation. They kept the inertia of his movements in mind, something they do for all of the characters but is especially noticeable and fun with characters like Miguel who have a lot of force behind their movements (This is also why I love how The Prowler is animated so much). One of my highest praises for these movies is that every character has their own unique style, and Miguel’s fits him very well and stays true to the comics.

And the last point I'm going to talk about before jumping in to speculation is the powers. There's not a lot for me to say here either in regards to comparison, since we've not really gotten a chance to see how movie Miguel's powers work, but I still do want to address it because if it's the same as in the comics, then he's actually pretty unique! Makes sense, considering he didn't get them from the standard radioactive spider-bite (more on that later). I am sorry to say but he is (probably) not a vampire (I say probably because it's entirely possible he is in the movie. But assuming it's the same as the comics, he isn't actually a vampire, just looks like one, since judging by the fact that Blade is... around... vampires are real in his world). Do keep drawing him as a vampire tho its hot.

Anyway. He does have those fangs in the comics! He also has venom! As in the paralytic toxin spiders use to catch prey, not the character. Another thing that sets him apart is that he... doesn't seem to have a spider-sense? At all? He has super enhanced normal senses, but not that sort of extra sense that pretty much every other spiderman seems to have. I don't know if this is true in the movie but it would be sort of neat. He also isn't sticky! Instead he has those talons to hook onto surfaces, those are a part of him, not the suit. Unless they changed it in the movie which is the one and only change i think would be super lame. But since they gave him the fangs I doubt it. There is one noteworthy difference between his powers in the comic and the movie, and it's that in the movie his webs seem to be technology based, maybe some form of energy or hard light technology, while in the comics he has spinnerets in his arms. It could also be a mix of both, or that could just be how his natural webs look. Either way I'm curious why that change was made, even if it was as simple as just to fit the futuristic aesthetic.

Miguel's Backstory

Onto the next section! I'm going to do my best to give a brief recap of Miguel's backstory, for anyone who doesn't know it. For the sake of simplicity I'm going to assume that his backstory in the movie is more or less the same as in the original comics, up to the part where he goes to another universe.

In the year 2099, most major cities are controlled by the interests of oppressive mega-corporations. Nueva York, controlled by Alchemax and their corporate police, is literally divided between the Uptown and the Downtown, the uptown being the shining, sparkling futuristic city where all of the rich and important people live, while the downtown is the crumbling remains of New York that have been built over, where all of those deemed worthless by Alchemax are confined to.

Miguel O'Hara is the head of the genetics project in Alchemax's R&D branch, leading their efforts regarding gene splicing and genetic manipulation. Miguel is a snarky, standoffish man, who’s just generally a jerk to pretty much everyone. He has a soft spot for Dana, his fiance, Lyla, his apartment's AI companion, and Gabriel, his younger brother, and... that's about it. Despite his rather high position in the company, Miguel has a strong distaste for Alchemax and its unethical scientific practices, and is determined to delay human genetics testing until he's sure it's 100% safe. After his reservations are ignored by the higher ups, and hasty human testing leads to the death of a man under Miguel's unwilling hand, he decides to quit working for the company. However, he's a valuable asset. Tyler Stone, the head of Alchemax, laces a drink for Miguel with Rapture, a hallucinogenic drug that alters genetic structure to cause almost guaranteed addiction and withdrawal so severe it can be deadly. Coincidentally, Rapture is only legally produced and distributed by Alchemax.

Rather than let himself be manipulated, Miguel decided to use his own genetic modification equipment to attempt to reverse the alterations made by Rapture. During the procedure, Miguel's supervisor, resentful of Miguel's fast rise through the ranks and his constant disrespect for his superiors, sabotaged the process in an attempt to kill him. Instead he ended up activating the gene splicing program, and spliced Miguel and a spider together. Why was a spider present at all, you may ask? The final result of this genetic manipulation project was super-soldiers, and Miguel had decided to take inspiration from a certain hero back in the Heroic Age. Spider based enhancements seemed to work pretty well back then, why not give it another go?

After emerging from the process very much not dead, but no longer human, Miguel has to navigate new powers, and the new dangers that come with the mantle he's accidentally taken. It's around this point when Miguel starts to have thoughts of taking his own life, and pretty consistently continues to throughout the story.

I'm not giving a full recap, this story is already long and I don't remember specifics for most things. Miguel faces a myriad of villains, future versions of classic spiderman villains and new foes as well. He also takes over Alchemax after usurping Tyler Stone, which I'll touch on again later. But throughout all of it a consistent theme for him is loss. Over the course of the original comics, he loses almost everyone he has any kind of connection with, in one way or another.

He has a falling out with his fiance, Dana, and before he can try to reconnect, she gets caught in the crossfire during a fight with Venom and dies in his arms. He finally starts to repair his broken relationship with his mother, only for her to be shot during a raid on Alchemax after she started working as a secretary. Gabriel eventually becomes so overcome with resentment for Miguel that he takes up the mantle of Green Goblin, and attempts to ruin his life and also kill him. Xina, an old flame he was rekindling his relationship with, left him again without so much as a goodbye. The only one he has left to turn to for any sort of familiarity or comfort is Lyla, and even she tried to kill him once. He cuts himself off from everyone who tries to make a connection with him again, because he's convinced that being close to him leads to people hating him, dying, or both. Assuming Miguel's backstory is the same up to this point, he's already at the lowest he's ever been. And probably stays there until he and Lyla develop the technology to travel between universes. Here's where the speculation kicks in.

Miguel finds another universe like his own. Another universe with another Miguel O'hara, except this one never became Spider-man. And this one never lost all of the same people that the other did. He and Dana got married, they have a daughter. They're happy. Not only does he have proof that it isn't just being close to him that gets people hurt, he has an opportunity. Because this other Miguel is dead, and this other Miguel isn't Spider-man. He could take his place and be free of his own unhappiness, his own burdens, and save the inhabitants of this parallel world the pain of losing him. And for a brief time he's happy, he doesn't have to be Spider-man, he has a family and a life that isn't full of danger and loss. And then he loses it all again, and is left once again with nothing but the feeling that it is his fault.

Further speculation, I think that's probably why he's so caught up with "canon"; it means that the losses he faced were inevitable. It makes him feel just a little bit better, a little less guilty. Yes, he's trying to protect other universes from possibly meeting the same fate as the one he caused to collapse, but he's also trying to make himself feel better in the process, even if he doesn't realize it.

Theories

This bit is going to be mostly unstructured, since I don't have any huge theories, just certain smaller points or plot elements I think are going to happen.

Miguel’s ties to Alchemax are going to come up, and they’re going to be important.

Alchemax is a company that originated in the 2099 comics. There has to be a reason they chose it for the company in Into the Spiderverse, because there’s dozens of other evil companies they could’ve chosen. But they chose Alchemax, the company Miguel has ties to, and then they set him up as an antagonist. It's going to be brought up, and it's going to be important.

Miguel and Miles will relate to each other

I say this because they're both very much outliers. They aren't their world's original Spider-man, they both have different powers and backstories than the other Spider-men. I feel like this is going to be called out, both as a way to call out Miguel's hypocrisy, and as a way for Miles to relate to him and find common ground.

Miguel was injecting himself with a gene stabilizer, or with something Rapture related

I know I'm not the first person to suggest the first part of this point. It makes sense--we know that the mutations from the spider DNA didn't all happen immediately. I also can't imagine that having your genome that dramatically altered is very good for you. I haven't seen anyone suggest the second part, but I think that's probably because it's not seeming very likely at this point. I don't want to rule out the possibility, though.

Peter B is going to be important to resolving the storyline with Miguel/Have a heart to heart with him

During the movie I got the sense that Peter B is trying to befriend Miguel, or at least to get him to open up a bit more. I think this is because he sees himself in Miguel. Yes, they're very different, but they're similar in ways that matter. Peter B looks at Miguel and he sees someone who's given up; on his principles, on his role, on his own life. Peter B has never been openly suicidal like Miguel, but before he met Miles he was still very much in the same spot. He had still given up on his ideals, on being Spider-man, and he made the choice to stay and destroy the collider not for a noble reason, but because he didn't care if he died. I think that Peter has recognized that same mentality in Miguel, and is trying to reach out to pull him back from that edge, like Miles did for him. I think the two of them have a lot of potential for some heartfelt interaction, and I hope I'm picking up on something that's actually there and intentional.

So that's pretty much it! This post is a lot more ramble-y and unstructured than I wanted it to be, but it was really just a way for me to get my thoughts out.

[goldensunset]

when people refer to canon story-relevant kingdom hearts games as ‘spinoffs’ it makes me sad not only for the obvious reasons i always say but also bc like man i WISH this series had spinoffs. imagine what they could do if they had permission from nomura to truly go off the rails and ignore the greater canon for a second and just do some fun whimsical plotless thing in an alternate universe. imagine a fishing/boating game on destiny islands. kh fighting game. it is an injustice that we have been deprived of kingdom karts. can anyone hear me

[boimgfrog]

People are so scared of polyamory but it's normal as hell. Like it should not be this complex of a topic 4 people. Literally ur just dating more than one person. Or more than two people are dating each other. It's not some crazy concept like oh my god it's just a different way of dating

[silusvesuius]

baby👶 drawings. these are very dear to me rn.. 2nd pic is my Nelavis with @barvin0k's Varonur 🩵 last one is a baby bosmer and snow elf, hairiest of them all. although the bosmer was meant to be my girl Barletta too lols

[the-amazing-spider-bi]

sorry but Jaime Lannister’s characterisation is so funny to me. yes I tried to kill your eight year old but I draw the line at paying people to do my killing for me. you better believe if I want a third grader dead I will do the child murder myself. preferably with a sword so I can look him in the eye while he dies by my blade

[lazycranberrydoodles]

i think the barbie movie would have a profound psychological impact on hua cheng

prev comic / next comic / follow for still more hualian barbie movie content because i am not done

bonus angsty version 🎉 i hate love expressions just a couple tiny lines on the mouth and eyebrows and it goes from silly to sad

:(

[grand-line-shenanigans]

I want them to beat each other to a pulp <3

[inquisitor-apologist]

Thinking about how, at the end of the day, at the fatal moment, the sunset of the Republic, it wasn’t Yoda, or Obi-Wan, or even the Chosen One himself standing in the way of Palpatine. It was Mace Windu.

Mace Windu, the inventor of Vaapad and Master of Form VII, the Jedi's strongest duelist, the only person to ever defeat Palpatine in combat. Mace Windu, Master of the Jedi Council and the youngest Master ever appointed to it, the revered leader of the Order. Mace Windu, who forgave even those who tried to kill him, who risked his life over and over again for his troops, who, after 3 years of desperate war, tried to negotiate with battle droids. Mace Windu, who knew the clones were created by the Sith and chose to trust them, who saw every Shatterpoint in the Republic, and loved it still, and fought for it until his last breath, until he was betrayed by Anakin, who he believed in and trusted despite everything.

Mace Windu, High General and hero of the Republic, the embodiment of the Light, the last and greatest champion of the Order, the best Jedi to ever live.

[miagour]

I insist anybody not to listen to Hank by any means, honestly

A bit out of context, but the main thing is that this is AU, where Cesar's alternate is not evil (and Mark is alive, too), which leads to complicated relationships with… "Gabriel" (aka Lucifer, for this universe)

upd: adding this note because it's important to clarify, and I don't know how soon I'll draw anything new — human-Cesar is also there! Furthermore, his presence is essential since au mostly focuses on his relationships with alt. "Cesar" (besides, he'll get his own name eventually).

So there are actually two Cesars in this drawing, not Cesar and Mark :')

[yashley]

imogen & fearne in c3e83

[butchmartyr]

ultimately you have to remember that complaining about "4chan white trans women who are bigoted and so and so" is almost entirely pointless for any purpose aside from raising transmisogynistic sentiments in observers. this specter of an evil tranny is constantly looming despite the individuals being rare and often total shut ins, and people expect transfems to take this shit seriously and be constantly swearing off association with """bad people""". these people, when they do exist, by and large lack the power to actually do anything with their beliefs; obviously if they do it sucks but this idea that there are trans women ~getting away with it~ and that all transfem communities allow and hide this behavior is blatantly transmisogynistic in addition to often being completely imagined! its insane to act like you have to choose between resisting white supremacy and resisting transmisogyny, and yet, people wind up continually portraying it as this

[echoes-solace]

so doc is a plush now or smth

oh yeah i also put him in a jar

[alish-artie]

I’m having fun so far playing Super Mario RPG !

(Also I didn’t expect Mario to be absolutely ready to punch a kid just because he doesn’t think highly of him-)

[rotisseries]

hades fandom dash osmosis had me kind of thinking that than and zag were the nicer friends to lovers romance and that meg was the mean dominatrix type but in my playthrough I've found that meg is distantly polite and than is openly a tsundere bitch. ok

[minothtime]

i've been obsessed with these games since last year and literally no other game i've ever seen, played or heard of has come close to these experiences

(alt version under cut)

[bludhavensbirdboy]

gnawing at the iron bars of my enclosure over the fic writers that use the whole dick Grayson chokeholds you during sex…like full arm around your neck can feel his bicep tensing against your throat type chokehold and after i just have to sit with my thoughts cause omfg NEED NEED. 🙏