#it's not destiel but it's not NOT destiel do you understand

[dotthings]

Dean and soulless Sam having a whole conversation debating over whether they should agree to work for Crowley in 6.07. The dramatic irony is very thick. I'm getting a bit ahead of myself on my rewatch but I noticed that conversation near mid-season and wanted to point something out.

Here's the thing. Yeah at the time S6 aired I was annoyed because Dean was yelling at Cas how could you!! How could you work for Crowley!! As if that made Cas the worst betrayer ever, when they've all worked with Crowley before and will again.

But it's a purposeful dramatic irony narrative TRAP. I hope people get that now. Dean's not being hypocritical--he's doing some transference, he's deeply upset, it's understandable--but it's not actually about Cas working for Crowley.

It is about Dean being very extremely and very personally upset about Cas lying to him. About Cas not coming to him particularly for help. About Cas going off all on his own to work with Crowley for a long while and keeping secrets away from Dean. "Working for Crowley" almost becomes code standing in for Dean's deeply wounded personal hurt that Cas didn't choose him, and instead of saying all that, he yells about working for Crowley.

That storyline is also heavily coded as marital cheating, but textually, no subtext needed it's Dean's deep sense of emotional betrayal. Not because of some self righteous morality where he really thinks Team Free Will working with a gray area demon for a greater good is wrong. He knows better.

That is dramatic irony and it was done 100% on purpose. Working for Crowley isn't actually how Cas messed up and hurt Dean. There's a lot in S6 that is about Dean and Cas and how much they have come to care for each other.

The Destiel is so strong.

[lover-of-mine]

On the question of the new viewers. Let me preface with after getting burned bad I made a promise I would never ship Canon straight characters as queer ships ever again. It just comes into play to understand the readers digest version of this. Yes I was always aware of the Buddie ship and the actors but that was it

I accidentally started season 6. It just came on, and I just didnt look away. Here's how it went.

I actually saw the lasagna dinner scene and thought wait they went Canon? That's them right? Then quickly realized. Nope 2 straight besties. Bucks a cool uncle (didn't know about will scene forgive me). And proceeded to not get attached.

Actually easy because they separated them a bit. But then there was the lightening strike and poker date and I was like oh somethings happening. I was wrong they had the dopey ass ending and I was like bless me for not getting invested.

Then.... It was a year wait!!!!!! So it was a boredom tune back in. I was pleased to see Bucks bi story. I thought the first kiss was charming. Then he was just there. I left the season thinking Eddie was tragically in love with his dead wife and Buck was experimenting.

If I didn't go back to binge I would have gone into 8 with these expectations. Eddie either excepting he was a tragic single father forever. Buck, yes probably seeing Tommy, but no I was not a shipper. Firstly because of appearance. I have no problem with age difference but with them I just don't like it. Tommy seems older and rougher. On the flip side personality. That Tommy wasn't what I pictured Bucks end game as like at all. I wanted someone like Spencer Reid if it wasn't Eddie.

But... . I did go back and binge. S1 was a trip. Got to S2. Saw the opening. Went duh I get why they ship them, but you ain't getting me. Until the elf scene. I really was good. But right after the elf scene I remembered hearing how Tim wrote it as a nod and double checked.. Remember, it would be weird to see the scene and know Tim knows after knowing full well yes Buck would come out queer. So it really was a no brainer after that. No way Tim created this in S2 if they weren't end game if there was ever a chance.

Then came the well, tsunami, shooting, will reveal, break ups, co dependant idiots and finally caught back to the lasagna and lightening. Also seeing how much Eddie isn't a reliable narrator about his relationship with Shannon. The version I got at the end of 7 is not what was happening on my screen in 2. I would almost label it a red herring depending on how this plays out in 8. Also after watching the begin episodes I understood anyone's frustration that Tommy was just white washed.

Final conclusion. Not even trying to sound condescending but I don't know why the other side even thinks this is a "ship war". I was late and I never hated Tommy but I would have never shipped them as end game. I couldn't even tell if Tommy actually liked Buck. I was left with the ick of Buck was a consolation prize or second choice and Buck was trying way to hard. Taking scraps and being grateful. Maybe because I binged it was more fresh but it was more of how little self respect Buck had for himself in trying to be in a relationship.

And if anyone finished reading that you deserve an award.

This is an interesting view of things, I think if you only have the s7 context, you will see them differently because the whole Kim thing really messes with the perception of Eddie and love, thank you for coming and telling me this, really.

But this kinda made me talk about my experience with buddie, so I'm gonna do that, because I think it's funny. I didn't know much about the show, but I knew of buddie, I started watching during the hiatus between 5a and 5b and during that time there was some big talk about queerbaiting going around and I know of them next to ships like destiel and stucky and destiel, I had just read an article on queerbaiting that had a section talking about them, so I kinda assumed buddie would be the same as they had enough context to create a ship but not enough for it to have a real chance of going canon, so I was set on not shipping them. Like, I was legit ready to roll my eyes and see that Buck and Eddie with their respective female love interests and be like "okay they are never going anywhere" but then an elf pretty much calls them gay as Eddie justifies sleeping with his wife 10 episodes in and I was like "oh oh" because they have a compelling friendship and I'm a sucker for best friends to lovers, but I was fighting it, until the tsunami, because seriously, I watched Eddie go "there's nobody in this world I trust with my son more than you" after a situation where no one would blame Eddie if he needed time and I was done for. Then they just kept getting more insane about each other. I remember watching the will reveal and being like "wait, fuck me, are they gonna go there?" because they follow all the basic procedural slowburn tropes, and I started s5 being like 👀 about everything that was happening to them. Now that Buck is bi, I'm seriously 95% sure buddie is happening because all the elements are there. There is something very compelling about Buck and Eddie together when you look at the whole show and s7 really added to that. Settling for Buck in a relationship with someone who's clearly not that into him just because it's a queer relationship doesn't feel right when Eddie is right there.

[vivitalks]

This ain't Earth. It's Purgatory. However monstrous, Dean can't fight the urge to just say what he means. Be who he is. Maybe this is who he is: fighting monsters, loving men. Maybe in this world, it can be.

(laughs nervously and slides this across the table as an offering to the dean/benny/cas community)

[bloodydeanwinchester]

DESTIEL IN EVERY EPISODE → 5x13 the song remains the same

one look and he'd do anything for you

[wigglebox]

Destiel Pride - Day 13; Gender Euphoria

[chocolatecakecas]

dean and cas literally sit next to each other on their porch at night looking at the stars and listening to the crickets

[angelsdean]

I need people to understand how S&P (standards and practices) works in television and how much influence they have over what gets to stay IN an episode of a show and how the big time network execs are the ones holding the purse strings and making final decisions on a show's content, not the writers / showrunners / creatives involved.

So many creators have shared S&P notes over the years of the wild and nonsensical things networks wanted them to omit / change / forbid. Most famously on tumblr, I've seen it so many times, is the notes from Gravity Falls. But here's a post compiling a bunch of particularly bad ones from various networks too. Do you see the things they're asking to be changed / cut ?

Now imagine, anything you want to get into your show and actually air has to get through S&P and the network execs. A lot of creators have had to resort to underhanded methods. A lot of creators have had to relegate things to subtext and innuendo and scenes that are "open to interpretation" instead of explicit in meaning. Things have had to be coded and symbolized. And they're relying on their audience to be good readers, good at media literacy, to notice and get it. This stuff isn't the ramblings of conspiracy theorists, it's the true practices creatives have had to use to be able to tell diverse stories for ages. The Hays Code is pretty well known, it exists because of censorship. It was a way to symbolize certain things and get past censors.

Queercoding, in particular, has been used for ages in both visual media and literature do signal to queer audiences that yes, this character is one of us, but no, we can't be explicit about it because TPTB won't allow it. It's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to those in the know. It's the deliberate use of certain queer imagery / clothing / mannerisms / phrases / references to other queer media / subtle glances and lingering touches. Things that offer plausible deniability and can be explained away or go unnoticed by straight audiences to get past those network censors. But that queer viewers WILL (hopefully) pick up on.

Because, unfortunately, still to this day, a lot of antiquated network execs don't think queer narratives are profitable. They don't think they'll appeal to general audiences, because that's what matters, whatever appeals to most of the audience demographic so they can keep watching and keep making the network more money. The networks don't care about telling good stories! Most of them are old white cishet business men, not creatives. They don't care about character arcs and what will make fans happy. They don't care about storytelling. What they care about is profit and they're basing their ideas of what's profitable on what they believe is the predominate target demographic, usually white cis heterosexual audiences.

So, imagine a show that started airing in the early 2000s. Imagine a show where the two main characters are based on two characters from a famous Beat Generation novel, where one of the characters is queer! based on a real like bisexual man! The creator is aware of this, most definitely. And sure, it's 2005, there's no way they were thinking of making that explicit about Dean in the text because it just wouldn't fly back then to have a main character be queer. But! it's made subtext. And there are nods to that queerness placed in the text. Things that are open to interpretation. Things that are drenched in metaphor (looking at you 1x06 Skin "I know I'm a freak" "maybe this thing was born human but was different...hated. Until he learned to become someone else.") Things that are blink-and-you-miss-it and left to plausible deniability (things like seemingly spending an hour in the men's bathroom, or always reacting a little vulnerable and awkward when you're clocked instead of laughing it off and making a homophobic joke abt it)

And then, years later there's a ship! It's popular and at first the writers aren't really seriously thinking about it but they'll throw the fans a bone here and there. Then, some writers do get on the destiel train and start actively writing scenes for them that are suggestive. And only a fraction of what they write actually makes it into the text. So many lines left on the cutting room floor: i love past you. i forgive you i love you. i lost cas and it damn near broke me. spread cas's ashes alone. of course i wanted you to stay. if cas were here. -- etc. Everything cut was not cut by the writers! Why would a writer write something to then sabotage their own story and cut it? No, these are things that didn't make it past the network. Somewhere a note was made maybe "too gay" or "don't feed the shippers" or simply "no destiel."

So, "no destiel." That's pretty clearly the message we got from the CW for years. "No destiel. Destiel will alienate our general audience. Two of our main characters being queer? And in a relationship? No way." So what can the pro-destiel creatives involved do, if the network is saying no? What can the writers do if most of their explicit destiel (or queer dean) lines / moments are getting cut? Relegate things to subtext. Make jokes that straight people can wave off but queer people can read into. Make costuming and set design choices that the hardcore fans who are already looking will notice while the general audience and the out-of-touch network execs won't blink and eye at (I'm looking at you Jerry and your lamps and disappearing second nightstands and your gay flamingo bar!)

And then, when the audience asks, "is destiel real? is this proof of destiel?" what can the creatives do but deny? Yes, it hurts, to be told "No no I don't know what you're talking about. There's no destiel in supernatural" a la "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" but! if the network said "no destiel!" and you and your creative team have been working to keep putting destiel in the subtext of the narrative in a way that will get past censors, you can't just go "Yes, actually, all that subtext and symbolism you're picking up, yea it's because destiel is actually in the narrative."

But, there's a BIG difference between actively putting queer themes and subtext into the narrative and then saying it's not there (but it is! and the audience sees it!) versus NOT putting any queer content into the text but SAYING it is there to entice queer fans to continue watching. The latter, is textbook queerbaiting. The former? Is not. The former is the tactics so many creatives have had to use for years, decades, centuries, to get past censorship and signal to those in the know that yea, characters like you are here, they exist in this story.

Were the spn writers perfect? No, absolutely not. And I don't think every instance of queer content was a secret signal. Some stuff, depending on the writer, might've been a period-typical gay joke. These writers are flawed. But it's no secret that there were pro-destiel writers in the writing room throughout the years, and that efforts were made to make it explicitly canon (the market research!)

So no, the writers weren't ever perfect or a homogeneous entity. But they definitely were fighting an uphill battle constantly for 15 yrs against S&P and network execs with antiquated ideas of what's profitable / appealing.

Spn even called out the networks before, on the show, using a silly example of complaints abt the lighting of the show and how dark the early seasons were. Brightening the later seasons wasn't a creative choice, but a network choice. And if the networks can complain abt and change something as trivial as the lighting of a show, they definitely are having a hand in influencing the content of the show, especially queer content.

Even in s15, (seasons fifteen!!!) Misha has said he worried Castiel's confession would not air. In 2020!!! And Jensen recorded that scene on his personal phone! Why? Sure, for the memories. But also, I do not doubt for a second that part of it was for insurance, should the scene mysteriously disappear completely. We've seen the finale script. We've seen the omitted omitted omitted scenes. We all saw how they hacked the confession scene to bits. The weird cuts and close-ups. That's not the writers doing. That's likely not even the editors (willingly). That's orders from on high. All of the fuckery we saw in s15 reeks of network interference. Writers are not trying to sabotage their own stories, believe me.

Anyways, TLDR: Networks have a lot more power than many think and they get final say in what makes it to air. And for years creative teams have had to find ways to get past network censorship if they want "banned" or "unapproved" "unprofitable" "unwanted" content to make it into the show. That means relying on techniques like symbolism, subtext, and queercoding, and then shutting up about it. Denying its there, saying it's all "open to interpretation" all while they continue to put that open to interpretation content into the show. And that's not queerbaiting, as frustrating as it might be for queer audiences to be told that what they're seeing isn't there, it's still not queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is a marketing technique to draw in queer fans by baiting them with the promise of queer content and then having no queer content in said media. But if you are picking up on queer themes / subtext / symbolism / coding that is in front of your face IN the text, that's not queerbaiting. It's there, covertly, for you, because someone higher up didn't want it to be there explicitly or at all.

[supernatural-case]

does anyone see my vision or is this too niche

[destielgaysex]

dean needed cas ("I just need a win." 13x05 "We got Cas back. That's a pretty damn big win." 13x06")

cas wanted dean ("The one thing I want. It's something I know I can't have." "I love you. Goodbye, Dean." 15x18)

[lunarsolar1]

PLEASE READ AND HELP A small FANDOM OUT 🥺

(If you can and if you want to) please CHECK OUT DEAD BOY DETECTIVES ON NETFLIX!!!!!!!! I promise that it’s good (and even if you don’t like it, please watch at least in the background) we need more views for season 2 and we’re running out of time. So please, if you know how that feels please help this fandom out and check out the tv show!!!!!! Please watch it or recommend it to other people you know 🥺❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

Sorry about this but I’m desperate enough to call out other ships and fandoms for their help cause I really care about this tv show and I REALLY want a season 2 and I’m sure some of yall will understand how that feels so please HEAR ME OUT and read this!!!!!!!! This is so so so important and I KNOW you know how it feels to have something so important to you, like these tv shows I’m tagging and ships. Yall know how it feels about thinking what you would do without them and I know yall know how it feels to be scared they might cancel it or not have them get canon etc. we all been there so please please help this fandom out, if there’s anything we can do for yall WE will help yall out. We need more LGBTQ+ representation in tv shows, this is what we have been fighting for YEARS, so please help us out!!!! Especially for older generations, I know yall know how it feels to be queerbaited/not have enough representation in movies and tv shows. I was THERE, I got to experience that when I was younger and it was awful. Now we are FINALLY having something we thought wasn’t possible years ago, we’re finally having more lgbtq+ representation!!! we cannot let them take that from us. This is what we WISHED and HOPED before, for the first time in YEARS I finally found a tv show that I NEEDED when I was younger, that healed me, so please help us out and make them give dead boy detectives a season 2!!!!!! This show has so much potential and it deserves to have a proper ending (if season 2 going to be the last season) so please please please I’m begging yall!!!!!!!

[youchangedmedestiel]

Episode 4x02 "Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester":

Episode 12x19 "The Future":

Not a babysitter, just a guardian angel.

[blurglesmurfklaine]

I’m literally a destiel survivor that got sucked into the gay firefighter queerbait show and I’m being so brave about it you don’t get it no one gets it I think I’ve seen this film before and I didn’t like the ending

[t00muchheart]

the audacity of castiel to pull the michael sword out of hell and remake him, removing all of the marks on his body except for the one on his shoulder that came from castiel’s own hand

[sepiamestus]

"hunter x hunter is queerbaiting" YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT SUBTEXT IS

[clowndensation]

wait explain to me the destiel hatred i’m curious what abt it angers u that doesn’t apply to the other two ships

great question! the answer would unfortunately require 3 hours and a powerpoint presentation, so i will try to do a brief summary:

a ship sucking only ever has about 25% to do with the ship itself. destiel is bad in the sense that i think dean winchester is an annoying character that gets treated with kiddie gloves by the narrative, which makes him irritating to see on screen, because i personally dislike it when "men are angry and abusive because they just love too strongly, and don't know how to express it :(" is played straight as a character's primary internal conflict. especially over 15 seasons. it's boring, he's boring, and 35 year old men shouldn't be going to colleges trying to figure out which freshman girls are legal or not. hate him.

however the real sin of destiel, beyond the fact that dean winchester and i have beef that will only ever resolve when i get to reincarnate as the rusty nail that kills him, is that the fans are so so so fucking annoying. like yes the narrative frames dean as a golden boy who can either do no wrong, or "well, i guess he did wrong there, but what about how tortured he is :(" but good god. at least the show isn't trying to convince me that destiel is some groundbreaking lifechanging love story, complete with "omg this moment" montages where they romanticize scenes that feature dean either insulting, threatening, or humiliating cas. like this entire show (post season 5) is dean chronically either infantillizing and attempting to keep cas under his control, or holding him up as the only person he can rely on, thus giving cas expectations that are impossible to fulfill.

and don't get me wrong! people can like a shitty person and a fucked up ship. that's basically everything i enjoy on here. but at least like. acknowledge it. aldfkjalka. and if you're gonna like a shitty person and a fucked up ship, at least write about it in an interesting way. 90% of fic and posts written about destiel aren't even about destiel as presented in canon, they're about two generic men with generic personalities who suffer from the world's most generic tropey problems. cookie cutter ass basic relationship. the high school au of ships. boring.

[serious-goose]

what being a non destiel tumblr user feels like every nov 5