#liminality: ep love

[sbj-got-the-heat]

"see you in my dreams, an empty & lonely void of a place."

An alternative cover art that conveys the project "~Temptations & Desires" perfectly! This Extented play of a story (EP) is about exploration of self (Self-Love), as well as the integration of someone special to you (Intimacy).

Sometimes love gives, & sometimes it takes. I wouldn't do something to someone, I wouldn't want done to me. At the end of it all the love I gave was a reflection of self.

This is my vulnerability, my authentic self, a glimpse of my heart.

[thenightfolknetwork]

✨ Why you should listen to Monstrous Agonies! ✨

Monstrous Agonies is a fiction podcast created by @monstrousproductions that captures the weekly advice segment on the UK's only dedicated radio station for creatures of the night 👻🥰

Featuring:

A late-night radio advice show for monsters

A butter-voiced English narrator so soothing they have literally sent people to sleep (take care if listening while driving!)

Now complete at three seasons, there's over 100 episodes to binge, with additional bonus eps, bloopers and end-of-season Q&As

Full transcripts for every episode, linked in the show-notes

Average episode length of 10-15 minutes (can you tell it was made by someone with ADHD... 😉)

Monsters as a metaphor for marginalisation

Monsters as not-a-metaphor-at-all - sometimes a sentient tapeworm is just a sentient tapeworm

Asexual vampires! Gay werewolves! Trans lizard ladies! If it can be queer, by God it will be queer!

Funny ha-ha!

Also, funny like ‘wait, are they eating people?’

Variously described as, ‘eldritch late-night Radio Four’, ‘fun and full of love’, and ‘like a warm hug from a creature with one too many arms

'While the podcast is now finished, the world continues here on @thenightfolknetwork where you can send in your questions about life, love, and all things liminal 😎

If that sounds like your cup of tea, search for 'Monstrous Agonies' on your podcatcher of choice and give us a listen! 🎧💕

[probablybadrpgideas]

Hallo there! On your last podcast episode one of you (Paper?) mentioned they love Horrörstor... well you should know there's an adventure for Liminal Horror with a very similar concept. I don't think I can post links here, but it's called "Trapped in an endless i-kräla" and it's available on itch.io!

Also you asked for merch ideas so here's mine: a mug saying "I survived another meeting that could have been a spaceship"

I'll check it out, thank you!

Also I love that we talk so much shit that I *think* this merch suggestion is from the ep but don't know for sure (because I haven't finished transcribing it yet) - Paper

[boilbluedenim]

Over the liminal mindscape

I love and hate how this show's ending is completely left up to interpretation, mainly because of Wirt and Greg's potential deaths and how that makes me feel about the show as a whole. It attaches a sort of bittersweet feeling to it which I'm not too sure about. more on that soon though.

Anyway, when paying even just an inkling of attention to this show, you can almost immediately connect the dots and come to the conclusion that none of the adventures (for the most part) actually happened. This conclusion is heavily drawn from the frames we see at the very beginning, of Wirt, Greg, and Jason Funderburker (the frog) drowning. (ep 1)

and from the frames where Wirt wakes up in the water after having said goodbye to Beatrice, saving his brother and the frog by carrying them both out of the water. (ep 10)

Taking into account that Wirt, Greg, and Funderburker all fell into the water moments before almost getting hit by a train, which we discover in episode 9; Into The Unknown, I think it's pretty safe to assume that this is, in fact, the case and that OTGW takes place in either a mental space or a physical limbo, occurring while they are all in the process of drowning.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that OTGW is heavily based off of Dante's Inferno, which, in the simplest of summaries, is a poem about a journey that begins in a forest, leads through hell, and eventually into heaven, hence the theorized death I mentioned earlier. It's actually pretty easy to spot where these references and homages lie, for example, the formula of the story is somewhat similar, and the characters take on similar roles. (for example, Virgil: Beatrice/Woodsman(?)or even Greg in some cases, Beatrice: Sara, Dante: Wirt.) (please read Inferno or a summary of it to fully understand this if you haven't already because it's actually really interesting).

Rewatching OTGW with this in mind led me to realize a lot of things that I originally passed off as unique writing choices with no actual meaning behind them. Then again that could be the case but what's the fun in assuming that?

Upon entering the unknown, we're launched into a universe with a seemingly ever-changing time period. Characters talk funny and fancy, dress and act as if they're from the 1600s-1700s, and none of our protagonists seem particularly fazed by this (except for Beatrice, occasionally) with Greg using a phrase such as "brother o'mine" and Wirt's dramatic poetic rambles. Everything feels very inspired while also being all over the place, almost as if it's been composed from memories, lying in the pits of somebody's mind...

Wirt is a Huge Nerd.

If I am to believe that this show takes place in one of our protagonists' minds, which I do in fact believe, then I would say that that protagonist has to be Wirt. Wirt has a tendency to go on poetic spiels, even dropping two of them in the very first episode. Accompanied by his teenage boy dread (being a nerd at 14 is tough) and his overextending knowledge about curious things, which he showcases in his exclaim at Beatrice's ability to talk and his comment about one of the rooms in Endicott's mansion (below), It becomes a glaring possibility that OTGW is primarily from Wirt's point of view, with the Unknown existing solely in his head.

I've actually seen this point argued before, with some people mentioning the black turtles on the poster in Wirt's room or just his entire room in general. However, if true, that doesn't really answer the question of whether the unknown exists as a physical space or a mental one, having no supernatural effects on the real world.

2. The Implications of the Bell

Okay, so, listen.

I hate to be the kind of person who goes "Well it's probably just a fun and silly bit that doesn't actually mean anything." but I'm gonna be that person anyway, or at least I'm not going to assume character death because I don't want to and free will is a thing blablablabla. I will however be serious for a second and try to provide a tangible reason for why I think this scene doesn't have any real-world implications.

For one, this scene immediately jumpcuts to a voiceover, followed by scenes that serve as conclusions for the stories of the characters we've met along the way, all of them being positive. I think this serves the purpose of letting us know the story did in fact have a good ending, with Wirt learning how to treat his brother with respect. I also think that ties into the theory above.

Not only does the unknown serve as a mental limbo but it also serves as a lesson for Wirt in particular. This journey is riddled with self-critique, characterized as Beatrice, all the while Wirt is drowning and realizing he's not only failed himself but his brother as well.

3. The Beast

Surprisingly I haven't mentioned the beast yet even though he's very important to the story. The beast represents a couple of things, one being death and two being the overarching, real-world problem. Those may sound like the same thing, and honestly, they are depending on what you think the problem is. To me, it's Wirt's relationship with, and treatment of Greg in the real world that bleeds into the universe of the unknown.

The exchange that Wirt has with the beast at the end of episode 10 fully encapsulates his character growth. The characters his mind has created have actually taught him something, that being; wallowing in sorrow and accepting your fate is just going to lead you further down this winding path, or in this case, to the bottom of this lake. You will never get home.

Unlike I've seen others suggest, this is not a story of a boy failing and dying while so wrapped up in his own fantasy, eventually residing in a false heaven. Instead, everything is put back where it needs to be.

From the forest, through the unknown, and finally, back home.

[bengiyo]

Only Friends Ep 3 Stray Thoughts

Last week, Mew said yes to Top and they started dating through their competitive dynamic. Boston is still hooking up with Nick and stringing him along, but tried to hook up with Top in the shower. Ray followed Sand around and now they're in a friends with benefits situation. We met Cheum's girlfriend, and Top seemingly impressed the lesbians.

"What am I to you?"

Not JoJo and NiNew responding on Twitter!!!

I hate the way Boston strings Nick along with false hopes.

Oh ho! Now Nick gets to be specifically jealous of Top!

These pillows are hideous and look uncomfortable.

"Last night was priceless." BOY, BYE

How long has Ray been in a drunken stupor that they were all stunned that he volunteered to do more than ask his dad for money.

Interesting that they trust Boston with the security cameras and just like with Top he's hiring someone he still wants to fuck.

Not keen on the silent disco with two DJs.

Not this man singing the lyrics, "I'm a villain, no matter how much I love you, I must die eventually."

Sand called Boston the village slut in the nicest way possible.

The way Khaotung got off that table as Ray was so well done. He's playing drunk so well.

"I can differentiate between love and sex." Famous last words.

And here I thought Nick would do some of the installation labor and it not just be six people standing around while one guy works.

The vitriol with with Boston describes Mew's relationship with Top! Whew! And then he got caught off guard by being asked if he liked Top.

Good cinematography in that car scene to show that Nick felt alone after that conversation.

So invested in Sand hating Top.

Well, they made First sing again.

Boston is so fucking mean, holy shit. He didn't need to fuck with Ray too just because he wants Top. Still, liked that gay little shift Neo gave in the way out of the kitchen.

Great work from the score in this goodbye scene with Mew and Top.

Very impressed that Ray closed that canopy of his car basically without looking.

Sand was correct to leave. Ray keeps teasing and pushing for more, but he runs to Mew immediately when he gets a call.

Damn, Boston. Also, Top, my dude, I thought you were smarter.

I was hoping the wiretaps weren't a throwaway line! Nick, welcome to your villain era!

Everyone is playing games, but Boston is the only one winning. He had a clear objective: Get Top's Dick Again. And, unlike everyone else, he got what he wanted. Ray isn't getting Mew. Mew isn't outplaying anyone. Sand is not navigating this liminal space with Ray well. Nick is getting bodied by Boston. Top just looked dumb this week.

[twig-tea]

Liminality in Last Twilight

Here are the two main definitions of liminal:

of, relating to, or situated at a sensory threshold [or limen]: barely perceptible or capable of eliciting a response

of, relating to, or being an intermediate state, phase, or condition : IN-BETWEEN, TRANSITIONAL

(the above phrasing from mirriam-webster).

Hopefully y'all are already picking up what I'm putting down; this show is all about that liminal space both these characters are in when they meet, and the limen of Day's vision is a major moment already highlighted in the trailers. I thought it would be useful to track those moments of liminality and see if they have significance/if this lens adds to my understanding of the show. After EP 1, I'm pretty confident this is intentional and adding value to at least my watch, so I'm committing!

Incidences of liminality in Last Twilight EP 1

Start of the series is Day waiting for his game to start; that liminal space right before the game begins

Similarly the first time we see Mhok is on that trolley thing under the car; a tool used to move from one space to another

Mhok is placing sequential bets, living in that liminal space before the game ends and money is owed

The uncertainty around Day's health in the game; where he can't tell what's happening, and is transitioning from playing the game to unwell and needing to leave

The first instance of limen represented to the audience via blurry camera, when Day looks up at the lights

Porjai unable to get out the words to Mhok about what happened to Rung, and the extended liminal space of not knowing what happened to his sister

The liminal space of having been locked up and now free but still not free from having a record

Also just undergoing any job search especially while unemployed is liminal space

Day trying to get a caretaker/adjust to his new life

20% vision: a defined limen for Day's sight

The car in the garage waiting to be paid for; refusing Mhok's decision and extending it for another 6 months

Day and Mhok meeting for a second time in the elevator (a liminal space)

Day waiting for a cornea transplant, with an unknown amount of time before it will happen (if it happens at all)

Day and Mhok meeting for the third time in another liminal space, this time the middle of the street

Another instance of limen represented to the audience using blur, this time of the street and of Mhok's face (thank you to @pondphuwin for your post that made me go back to notice this)

Again, when Day offers Mhok the job, Mhok makes a firm decision and is to told to think about it more--he keeps getting thrust back into liminal space

In Mhok's flashbacks, he thinks back to moments of liminality: the car, the job hunt, and then being told not to let opportunities pass him by

Tagging the ol' ephemerality squad as well as folks I've seen post about this show or who I've spoken with about this show so far, because I want other thoughts on this, but no pressure. I won't tag anyone who doesn't engage with this idea in any future posts unless you ask, and I won't mind!

@chickenstrangers , @clara-maybe-ontheroad , @colourme-feral , @distant-screaming , @lurkingshan , @neuroticbookworm , @rocketturtle4 , @slayerkitty , @thatgirl4815 , @ranchthoughts @waitmyturtles , @wen-kexing-apologist, @bengiyo, @heretherebedork, @respectthepetty, @my-rose-tinted-glasses

Whether or not you want to follow along, I would love help noticing the visual instances of liminality because I tend to not process visual changes well and it means I don't clock a lot of visual things. So please tag me in anything like that, even if you don't want to be tagged!

[autismprotocol]

Sorry for the late post (I work nightshifts) but I figured I should give more info on the Hungers thing. It's a theory I've mostly seen being floated in the youtube comments or one-off tumblr posts, so I'm not sure where it originated. It's one of those "this is either the key to the whole series or a fan-created red herring that will be discredited by the end of season 1".

The primary evidence of it is the fact that for the first 5 episodes the horror has been entirely driven by a passion or desire of the statement give, and their desires have gotten more focus then their fear.

Harriet wants to see her dead husband again, even if he's come back wrong. RedCanary seems driven by the thrill of urban exploration and a desire to clear the magnus institute first. Darla has body image issues (hence why the probable flesh avatar ink5oul can get her) and thus wants to feel pretty (ink5oul also is only willing to work on her when she states a clear desire). Samuel Webber wants to be with the wife he murdered. Voilin guy from episode 4 (who tumblr user fandom-geek stipulated might be James Smithson of the Smithsonian museum) wants his musical talent to be recognized even if it costs blood (and Stranger McArtifact gives him his deepest desire rather than his worst fear). Tom the horror fan is ecstatic to get a personal screening of an obscure horror movie he's been searching for.

Again, any theory based on the first 5 episodes should be taken with a grain of salt. Needles doesn't really fit into it (I guess he wants people to be afraid of him?) and the stranger and buried's charity auction from hell in episode 7 certainly doesn't fit in (unless the "good cause" is playing ironic genie to the people the artifacts are being sold to). It's just an idea I've seen being floated around about how the powers might be different in this timeline.

Thank you so much for the extra info on the hungers/desires theory! when discussing it with my roommate we are starting to beileve that what we're seeing in this world is the birth/ creation of avatars and they had the theory that avatars (at least in protocol) are born from a strong desire I really love this idea so I'm gonna try to prove the few from the newest episode under this theory that

EP 8: Give and Take - for this one we actually can't fit that cleanly into the theory (if you have a theory about how it could fit in please leave it in the comments or send a ask :D ) we are thinking that the inccident read in the episode about the brutalist liminal spaces was a ritual, rather than the birth or the individual act of an avatar.

EP 9: Rolling with it- this avatar (Evil dice dude) was born from a desire to control his luck.

Ep 10: Saturday night: Neil Dickerson is tricky i still have no idea if he's an avatar himself or if it's just Mr Bonzo but either way Bonzo was created from Nigels desire to be famous,

I'll be interested to know if this pattern continues into future episodes. So far I see the Desire theory being a pretty strong case to explaining the origin of the esoteric inccidents the O.I.A.R files.

also just a quick update: I'm working on a Episode 10 breakdown but Its taking a while because I wanted to illustrate some scenes to add some visual flair :0 it will hopefully be out by tomorrow or monday!

-Echo

[yergink]

continuing my "the innkeeper is the best ep of ofmd s2" propaganda, i love that scene of stede walking through the hallway to the captain's cabin after they stumble across the revenge. something poignant about liminal spaces, about the use of walking through one and coming out changed on the other side.

something about how stede climbs aboard the revenge so achingly hopeful, after literally throwing himself out towards it, only for that to shatter as he takes in the wreckage. entering that hallway and seeing the stabbed portrait, and the knife marks and blood on the walls. that tense, drawn out shot as he makes his way to the cabin door. you get the perfect sense of him realizing there's so much more to fix than he thought, hopeless optimism fading even before he finds the crew and does not find ed. that hallway as another example of a transition from fantasy to reality.

[seeminglydark]

I was a little worried that the Mil-Liminal podcast wouldn't be as good as I hoped, since to my knowledge you write comics and I wasn't sure how well it would translate to the podcast format. GODDAMN DID YOU PROVE ME WRONG. Your pilot episode is fuckin epic! Lowkey in love with the bit where Caro is like. Okay now close your eyes (I did). And then slowly builds up this cool picture of what their little liminal world is like. Also the opening music fuckin slaps, did you make it? Are you going to upload the music on its own because I want to listen to it.. So fuckin cool very excited to see more of this

HAHA me too honestly, i was/am pretty terrified to put myself out there in a more tangible way like this, like...letting people perceive me as a story teller instead of just a writer/artist. THANK YOU FOR TELLING ME YOU LIKED IT omg this means everything to me honestly. Im so glad your enjoying it so far, i cant wait to get the real ep up in a couple days! thank you thank you thank you i need the validation food so much haha!

As for the music, i didnt make it but it was made for me. i had a pretty good idea what i wanted, and my extremely talented partner @snakepixel dabbles in music as well as game development and he created it for me a couple years ago, when i first had the idea to create the podcast. (he is also responsible for the logo designs of both Mil-Liminal and Seemingly Dark!) He says its just midi and isnt sure it would translate well to just be listened too on its own, but ill throw it here for you so you can hear it without Caro talking over it. The more ominous music throughout the pod is the same music, he slowed it down and took out some of the sounds to create it. Here's the main intro before it loops <3

ANYWAY thank you so much, honestly, i've gotten some feedback but it always helps to hear im doing pretty ok so far, i appreciate you so much! See you soon for episode one!

[vinxwatches]

watching good omen season 1

ep 1 pilot

haven't seen a lot of it, mostly that people like it, that it's made by people people really like and that it's gay (or at least people make it gay) so you know, good pick for me. and i just watched to animations/animatics on youtube with bad endings and bad endings fuck me up, so hopefully this is happier. intro is a fucking banger. also god has a fem voice? nice. accurate skin colour for the earliest humans. not surprised, but appreciated. making fun of theology and great banter? i love it.

ominous picnic basket. oh... actually quite biblically fitting it seems. i REALLY hope they don't expect me to remember these names too well. many of the characters seem fun though.

of course the american politician says bs like "a regular y chromosome son". which i'm sure has not been tested as you 1: don't know the gender yet. 2: phenotype does not denote genotype.

i wonder who and how they'll figure out who has the wrong baby. "i don't recall what horror of history we had a lunch over, but i do recall what we had." the BEST dynamic.

will they even figure out they got the wrong one? ok, i know that working with an actual 5 year old would be a nightmare... but that kid is like 12.

well done making both heaven and hell look like shit. do you want grime overpopulating or empty, liminal, office spaces?

brilliant end of episode 1.

ep 2 the book

damn the forces of hell are so bloody rude and evil. and so many quick jokes.

question: what are the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse supposed to be in christianity? both biblically and in modern belief? they are separate from devils and angels.

i love a witch that also uses an ipad in her rituals.

"sorry, right number" seriously the humour in this show is so brilliant. i really hope the story is able to match it.

ep 3 hard times

a black knight shrugging is way too funny. i love these two. just two old friends helping each other out, it's just that that's diametrically opposing one another. the angel doing some tempting, the demon some miracles. and upper management doesn't care.

awh, they are just so cute together.

excuse me you are playing intro now? 28 minutes in? that's not an intro. that's a bloody intermission!

they really succeed at making heaving seem so extremely bad. extremely wide shot or extreme close-up. it's so incredibly uncomfortable.

the prime minister has a nice flat chested fucker in his bed.... good for him if he's not cheating.

"mend it all"/"end it all" whispers. really neat.

ep 4 saturday morning funtime

of course he was condemned for nothing more then asking questions.

ah, they got rid of pestilence to replace them with pollution. it's a good change, but feels pretty pre 2020.

oh no, i find his death so sad. he had a love, why kill him? i know the apocalypse is coming but still.

i still really hope that the presidents son turns out to be trans to just break the things he said at the start. then again it wouldn't really work as it's not the kids he said it about. idk, i guess i hope of screen son turns out to be trans to spite the person that'll never know... yea i'm holding out hope for something that doesn't matter.

azi being send to heaving is SO bad. his bookshop possibly burning down is emotionally worse. it was going to be the last episode of the day. but i started watching because i couldn't deal with bad endings, so i guess i'll have to watch one more.

ep 5 the doomsday option

Azi going full rogue (finally).

man that's the most obvious cold reading ever.

the guard reads a neil gaymen book. cute.

sir... your car is... more then a little on fire.

ep 6 the very last day of the rest of their lives

are we doing a flash back episode for the last episode of the season?

oh, please let him rebuild the car just like i want the bookshop rebuild?

the way to defeat the end of the world is to believe and stand (and i hope work) for a world that wouldn't end. a bit on the nose but very nice.

and of course with Terry Pratched being involved death is not to be defeated, just not hastened along.

a kid not doing the one thing they were supposed to do.... there's a trans/gay message in there. also That's Just What Kids Do! you wanted an 11 year old to do what they were told? that's the first part of the problem.

for a TV series that's a pretty good satan. oh that is SO clever. kind of time fucking, but not really so long as you never introduce time travel so it's only true from now on. oh, is it a nicer ending then i though? YES IT IS! \o/

it "ends" as it starts: with a garden and an apple. ok, make it more explicit why don't you.

oh, you subtle bastards. i love it. other scene's now make more sense too, oh how i love it.

ok, yea it makes sense people go wild over this as it's really bloody great.

[onpyre]

I’ve been thinking a lot about the One-with-No-Eyes as a Psychopomp

We know that Yellowjackets loves its Greek myths (x/x), so I want to consider the Man-with-No-Eyes as a Psychopomp. I’ve touched on these things a bit from this meta post of mine regarding Tai being a tree, but in light of the most recent episodes, I wanna deep-dive into this enigmatic specter haunting Taissa.

The first time we see the One-with-No-Eyes (outside of the title sequence) is 1.03, The Dollhouse, when Tai is a little girl. It’s her dying grandmother who first sees him, and is horrified by him. This really fits with a Psychopomp guiding the souls of the recently dead, since her grandmother is preparing to transition.

Tai’s grandmother was calm about dying up until she saw him, even telling young Tai earlier that an angel would come for her. Psychopomps can be angels, demons, or any type of spirit in between, and I think it’s significant that the first time Tai sees the Man-with-No-Eyes is in the mirror, since mirrors have mythological associations with portals and spirits.

Mirrors are a sort of liminal object. They show you something everyone else sees but you can’t: yourself.. but in reverse. Looking at yourself is a psychologically loaded phenomenon, and considering Tai’s bifurcated self communicating with her through mirrors, it’s safe to say they reflect a truer version of the world than she’s willing to accept.

In Jungian Psychology, Psychopomps can also represent a guide between the unconscious and conscious realms. And the One-with-No-Eyes certainly bridges the gap between Tai’s conscious self and her unconscious doppelgänger self.

And conscious Tai *does* see him, despite denying the supernatural. We have textual evidence from 1.03, 1.05, and 2.03:

In 1.03, before the audience is introduced to him, Tai sees the the No-Eyed Man. She’s disturbed by something she sees in the forest. We’re shown a shot of what she’s looking at: an empty frame of trees. This is actually a shot from the show’s title sequence, except in the title sequence the Man-with-No-Eyes stands in the middle of the frame. We can safely assume Tai sees him here.

This same thing happens in ep 1.05, Blood Hive. Adult Tai is supposed to fold out of the political race, but looks into the crowd. Her eyes land on an empty space (44:58), and whatever she sees prompts her to double down and stay in the race. When she finishes her speech, at 46:25 she looks back to the same spot in the crowd that gave her courage, and there he is, just like the title sequence: the Man-with-No-Eyes.

In 2.03, Digestif, when Van accidentally wakes Tai from sleepwalking and asks her who the One-with-No-Eyes is, she flashes to the first time she sees him, with her dying grandmother, in the mirror.

The Man-with-No-Eyes is a guide through the mirror, through the looking glass, reflecting her desires and fears, if only Tai would follow. But, tbf, we don’t know what type of entity we’re dealing with. And when Tai’s grandmother sees him she does not take him for an angel. she screams:

Don’t you come over here. Stay away…. don’t let him take me! Don’t let him take my eyes!

This fear of getting your eyes stolen in this inter-generational setting feels very dense to me. It touches on generational trauma and reminds me of myths like Oedipus Rex.

This Figure-with-No-Eyes appears to Tai’s grandmother, who in that instant passes him to bb Tai. And then we see trauma perpetuated with adult Tai and Sammy.

In Oedipus Rex, the family is trying to avoid fate, but they cannot escape. Oedipus is told the truth about killing his father and marrying his mother by the blind prophet Tiresias. and once Oedipus finally “sees” the truth that he’s killed his father and married his mother, he plucks out his own eyes. He cannot unsee the truth, and he has clearer vision once blinded.

Tai, like Oedipus and her grandmother, usually refuses to follow the Man-with-No-Eyes. This is explicitly stated in the most recent episode, 2.03 Digestif:

Van: How do you know where you’re going?

DoppelTai: He shows me.

Van: Who’s “he”?

DoppelTai: The One with No Eyes.

Van: Is that who you always follow?

DoppelTai: Only when she lets me.

Van: Okay there’s a “she” too? Am I “she”?

DoppelTai:

Van: Then who is “she”?

DoppelTai: Taissa.

Van: Then who are you?

Conscious Tai refuses to let herself acknowledge the reality of the woods. Like Oedipus, Tai has hubris surrounding her ability to understand the world. She refuses to believe in the supernatural, despite it being up close and personal, always in her peripheral vision.

But the repressed part of Taissa, the one I call DoppelTai, who only wants her to survive, knows and accepts the Man-with-No-Eyes. This version of Tai is like Oedipus post-blinding. And like Tiresias, the Man-with-No-Eyes is a guide cluing her into the reality of the woods. Offering her not only survival, but power.

I want to point out all the little nods to this No-Eyed Specter surrounding Tai:

there’s the mirrors, which imply looking and reflection, as well as being the first time the One-with-No-Eyes is shown

Tai checking her grandmother’s eye sockets at the funeral to find they’re empty

the eye patches Tai makes Van and herself for the Doomcoming

DoppelTai removing one of the eyes from Sammy’s doll and putting it on her altar

I’ve talked about the mirrors and the grandmother’s fear of her eyes getting stolen, so I want to consider the other bullet points. The eye patches were created after the wolves maul Van, which is Tai’s fault, since DoppelTai stole the bone talisman from Van, the flare gun, and fucked off to the safety of a tree.

Van didn’t get an eye taken, but the eye patches invoke that imagery, and it does feel like some sort of exchange between the One-with-No-Eyes and DoppelTai. He was most certainly leading her in that moment, after conscious Tai fell asleep and let the fire go out.

Just what did she get in the exchange? I don’t know. I assume DoppelTai had been eating dirt on her previous sleepwalking excursions for the minerals (worth noting you might eat dirt for iron deficiency, and we know the forest has a lot of iron in the ground), and maybe like those previous times, it was simply about survival: an exchange for safety from the wolves. But then I think about the most recent episodes, that the One-with-No-Eyes has been leading her to the symbols carved into trees. Could she have been looking for one of these at this time?

This leads me to her adult self and Sammy. Like the wolf incident with Van, adult Tai ends up in a tree at a loved one’s expense. As an adult, it’s her son’s well-being that’s in jeopardy.

DoppelTai ramps up that danger by breaking Sammy’s doll, removing an eye, and adding it to her altar. This invokes the Man-with-No-Eyes, as well as the half vision of Tai and Van’s Doomcoming looks. If Tai’s grandmother was scared of the No-Eyed Man stealing her eyes, what does it mean that Tai takes a proxy of her son’s? He clearly hasn’t been doing great.

If the payoff of this exchange is Tai winning the senate race, is the dog, doll proxy, and (Adam’s?) heart enough? Post-election, Tai is a mess, and her wife’s accident, with Tai drawing the symbol on her palm, says to me that the doll proxy isn't enough.

But enough speculation! Time to wrap this baby up: I view Taissa as a Seer (whereas I see Lottie as more of a Prophet). She has all manner of double vision, whether it’s blinding herself to the situation and her full self, or seeing this guide who leads her. Like Lottie, the supernatural elements in Tai’s life didn’t start in the woods, but the woods have accelerated, or amplified them.

The One-with-No-Eyes is leading her to the symbols, which are powerful if you’re willing to sacrifice a little blood. Whether functioning as a Greek Psychopomp, guiding her through this liminal spiritual landscape of the woods, or as a Jungian Psychopomp, acting as a mediator between the unconscious and conscious realms, or something in between, the Man-with-No-Eyes is a player, different than Lottie’s relationship with the woods. And I am *so* looking forward to watching this unfold.

[wyrd-syster]

Heya, I've been pondering over Haladriel a lot lately, and i'm wondering what you think Sauron believes he has to gain, specifically, by being bound to Gal's light? I.e. surely he can achieve/enact his vision for ME with his power alone. But maybe it's more about how her light makes him feel, as opposed to what it can do for him? Idk I loved your understanding of what was going through his head in that last ep (per your fics) and i thought you might be able to shed some light (hah) on this...

Sorry my reply to this is so late! I spent some time thinking about this.

So, the thing is, I don't think Sauron believes he can enact his vision for Middle-earth by himself. At least, not the idealized version of it.

Sauron freely admits he's done evil, he is aware at some level the pain he's caused. He professes to want to heal Middle-earth, and I think a lot of character interpretations are contingent on your view of this claim - is he truly repentant or just afraid of punishment? I personally think it is the much more interesting character choice to believe him; I believe he wants to right his wrongs, wants to atone. I think he truly believes that restoring order and perfection to the world will absolve him of his crimes.

However, the question then arises, how does he do all this without infringing upon his pride (which we know is what stopped him from submitting himself to the Valar for judgement)? How does he balance his thirst for power with his will to do better?

Following this thinking through to the end of the line, the answer is he doesn't. In the end, his lesser demons overcome his better angels. Sauron becomes the greatest evil on Middle-earth, covers the world in a second darkness, yatta, yatta, yatta.

So it seems like we meet him at this crossroads moment - trying to legitimately think of ways to right his wrongs while refusing to compromise on his ego and desire for power. And because he doesn't know how to navigate this cognitive dissonance, he's adrift - both literally and figuratively.

Enter Galadriel, who does not let him fade into obscurity and mope, but instead pesters him until he rises to the challenge of who she wants him to be and takes responsibility for the Southlands. Galadriel is the one who shows him the path forward, and he says as much to her in ep 8: "I'd all but given up, but you...You believed in me. You saw strength in me. You pushed me to heights no one else could have."

I think Sauron is self-aware enough to know he needs Galadriel to "pull him back" when his tendency for darkness overtakes him. I think he knows he will be unable to resist the temptation for self-gain and power without someone there to keep him in check. And Galadriel is the strongest being around capable of doing that, one whose support has "pushed him to new heights." And, importantly, one who is currently exiled from her own people - just think, an incredibly powerful ally in a vulnerable position!

To me, there also seems to be an angle of legitimizing his efforts through binding himself with Galadriel. She is, in many respects, a stand-in for the Valar on Middle-earth. So if she believes in him and supports him, then his work cannot truly be evil, not when it is A+ Noldor Certified!

I also just really vibe with a lot of what @liminal-zone has discussed about Sauron needing a new dom leader. Morgoth had a "clenched fist" around him for ages, and Sauron did his bidding. Now, he needs someone else to boss him around and give him guidance, someone like Galadriel.

Or, you know, he could just want her light to make himself, like, uber powerful. rip to charlie vickers' mentions but my readings of this character are different lol

[dotthings]

Thinking out loud and I hope this is coherent. This spec isn't meant to cover all the details, I'm trying to get across a rough sketch of what I think's going on here with Dean and modulate and tweak on some of my earlier spec, but mostly this is still in line with what I've been thinking all along.

And also to reiterate: what we're seeing on TW is canon. It's not an alt timeline. It's not an alt universe, it's part of the flow of events that leads to the mothership events.

The Dean we see in the pilot, I at first thought might be Dean in a limbo space, after the rebar, before he passes to Heaven. I still think that's happening, and that it's crucial to the plot. But now I'm modulating to we're seeing Dean who has already time traveled to 1972 Lawrence. Troubled and restless because he's on a mission.

Because here's what I'm thinking--after the rebar, Dean's soul got stuck in a limbo-like place. A liminal afterlife space. He can't move on, he can't get to Heaven yet. How did he get to Heaven? The original ending skipped over all that. We're going to get that story. Dean's got regrets. His arc isn't done.

The rebar death isn't being retconned, I don't think, but it will be transformed by context. You think Jensen's salty about the rebar, you think we're salty about it, that's nothing to how salty Dean is about it, and he has other regrets, things that were not resolved. And his soul, landing in limbo, is in trouble. Something goes wrong and Dean, thinking he's fixing stuff, hoping to make things better, and ease the pain, actually breaks things, and it breaks the canon timeline. Away from what we're seeing in TW right now.

Dean's going to need some help coming back to himself and then, to fix what went haywire.

Mystery man is "not of this earth." Because he was put there from the afterlife.

TW events are not the haywire.

The repair is Dean handing John the letter and sending him to Mary, which leads him to the monster club.

This is how it always happened. This is the canon path that leads to the mothership events.

And without it--without John being sent to Mary, without the monster club, without the circle of love and support, things would be a lot worse for John and Mary and everyone than what we saw on the mothership.

I can throw a few examples, imagine John who didn't even survive to Dean's 18th birthday, or a Mary who drifted even farther from the loving parts of herself. Boy King Sam laying waste to the earth with his demon army. Dean v Sam. Cas never rebels.

Earth prime becomes a burned out world, just another one of Chuck's discarded drafts.

By handing John the letter, Dean puts things back on the og canon path.

Our Dean, running around 1972 Lawrence to set things right, to keep things on the path that leads to the events of the mothership. The good, the bad. All of it. All that makes Dean be Dean. He's choosing not just to save the world, he's choosing himself, he's choosing to be who he is, he is good with who he becomes. It's self-acceptance, and completes the emotional circuit on Dean's arc that 15.20 abandoned and skipped over.

This also makes Dean the literal guardian of the canon.

Jensen really loves spn and he respects the canon, so this seems like an apt role for Dean to have. He also doesn't seem spn as perfection, he's mentioned that himself on con panels, some eps work better than others. He knows.

Without retconning or fixing this via discarding any part of canon, the repair and comfort and recontextualization is coming.

(Also I don't know if ALL of this will be revealed in ep 13 but I think we'll get a bunch of reveals that indicate towards the long term arc, even if it's not the resolution yet so this is my spec on What the Heck is Going On).

[arthurtaylorlester]

wtnv liveblog ep. 224 liminal spaces

quod est superius est sicut quod inferius

well yeah cecil night vale could be a liminal space

i cannot with cecil talking about trends skfhkhkg

yes you are very hip cecil :D

dw cecil i love popcorn too wait am i old???

mmmmm night jeans

reminds me of the one bo burnham jeans ad

amusement park you say

cecil is soo good at describing liminal spaces

you know what you ARE right they are juts spooky

OH GOD A MAN??

you can’t remember him huh

it’s his father

HOLY SHIT IT ACTUALLY IS EMPTNESS IN YOUR HEART YOU SAY

noooo dana dont go after D:<

exactly why would you ever want to leave

TRASH THAT PUG !!

michelle and riverdale meditation sounds amazing

did you know i actually can’t boil water nevermind food i could actually use that

wait janice fell asleep?? this is exactly like ‘it doesnt hold up’

oh ok that is very true liminal spaces are very nostalgic and thrive on it

THE MAN AGAIN I KNEW IT

a video?? what’s he typing

wha-

YEAH WELL CECIL I WANT TO SEE HIS FACE

no you haven’t seen enough

cecil baldwin is so good at voice acting, you can hear the fear when he says the video isnt turning off and that he’s bad at using technology

CAPYBARA = DOG TRUTHING

CECIL YOU ARE SO TRUE FOR THAT THE DISHES IN FACT DON’T MATTER

cecil you are in a horror show you will die

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU’RE NOT IN THE STUDIO

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU’RE IN 2003

god i love horror shows

WEATHER TIME: SPOILER ALERT IT SLAPS

wait is he in the fucking backrooms

HE IS IN VARIOUS BACKROOM LEVELS

of what now?? malaise??

oh no do we meet cecil’s dad

if he isnt lee marvin i’ll cry

his home? oh no

hhhhh ohhh noo

CAT BALOO?? THE MURALS TOO ?? I WAS RIGHT

cecil bbg please don’t repress bad memories :((

noooo cecil :(( i wish i could help my blorbos ugh

well, i certainly loved this episode, liminal spaces are such interesting concept

goodnight nightvale, gnight :)

[secret-code]

》 yongseung » liminality ep. love jacket behind ♡