#rwby fandom discourse

[the-confessions-of-a-user]

I will not lie, I saw the whole drama wave coming once the bumblebee kiss happened. What I will say I am surprised is about is that people started arguing with the animators.

I just... oh boy

[matt0044]

Why does Indie Animation lend itself to such intense discourse?

If I had to speculate from my own observations (feel free to call me out on an overgeneralizations), it would be that the harsh turn against any given indie project would be akin to a mother scolding a child with, "I expected this from your sibling but you?!"

See also the "We were rooting for you" gif often tossed around.

Indie Animation be it from a small studio or crowdfunded is seen as bypassing the hoops and hurdles of getting your foot in the door of the highly corporatized entertainment industry. With the likes of Disney or Nick or any given streaming service, creator driven projects are subject to the whims of the company who holds the IP.

And those whims are often to said IP's detriment. It'll more often than not be willfully neglected at best or treated as just something to fill a time slot or shove onto a streaming platform as "content." Enough may be allowed to flourish but their either uncerimoniously cut short at best or being dragged out as a franchise at worst.

To keep from going on about the whole Legend of Korra vs. Spongebob thing (I was there people, there was an LoK fandom believe it or not), indie animation has often been seen as small scale but also within the creator's general control since they control how long it goes or how it's written.

Many cartoons like Gravity Falls, Owl House and Amphibia have talked about trying to get their vision across while contending with a lot of Standards and Practices. Their story which had a "kids and adults alike" target audience would have the top brass insist on something more just for the former category.

While they find work arounds, often to stick their tongue out at the FCC, this can be a hard reminder of who has the final say despite it being what you want. Indie animation is seen as an answer to "What if Alex Hirsch didn't have to comprimise elements of Gravity Falls for the FCC?" or "What if Dana Terrence could just blaze her own trail with The Owl House with little to no notes?"

Especially when it comes to animation with queer characters. Animation made to be "fit for kids" have it tough enough even today but adult animation has to "play it for laughs" since comedies have been the defacto standard for that type of cartoon.

However... a show being creator driven or creative team driven comes as a double edged sword for the fandoms they form. Not all stories that play out across multiple episodes of varying lengths are going in the direction YOU might want to.

Creators might tire of a certain direction or formula and mix things up with things that come to mind almost on the spot. Even with a solid plan, the status quo will get a shake up that can and will alienate those who fell in love from episode one.

Indie Pilots spark the imagination something fierce. There's theories as to what any little detail could mean going forward and speculation on what a character's arc could be. These go wild because Fandom is all about the hypothetical, the unknown, the what could've/should've/would've been. Whole phenomenon would be dead in the water otherwise.

Thing is that not all theories will be proven right if any at all. The creators aren't mind readers and even if it isn't a legality like in corporate, they don't read fanfics if only because they don't want their vision to be totally compromised. Any good creator knows not to just give fans what they want. However... trampling over all these fanfics and theories makes it feel like any given fan had their "child" dragged into the streets to be shot.

A harsh phrasing but that's how a lot of fans act when continuing episode bump up against initial impression of this character or that storyline. It was their creation but new lore, new backstory or what have you is liable to override them. It's been an occupational hazard of being a member of fandom for ages yet it's become the center of a lot of discourse now more than ever. Say thank you to social media for creating such a combative environment everybody.

It's this... feeling of ownership that has existed in fandoms of other shows owned by corporations but amplied by the smaller scale of it, how creators seem more... approachable. And THIS is how the YouTube "critic" scene comes in to capitalize.

So... yeah.

[illusory-torrent]

i thought… i thought we all knew weiss was into men??

[zcricketz]

Scrolling on twitter and this mess came on my for you. And this is exactly why I never take anyone who thinks the show is ruined seriously because this is what they think would save the show smh

[dextixer]

The hypocritical Woobification of Raven Branwen

I dont think it is a secret to anyone who has followed any RWBY discourse, that female characters are treated VERY differently from male ones in the wider fandom, especially in regards to the morality of their actions. I dare anyone who wishes to enter the words like "Raven" "Ironwood" "Adam" "Cinder: and the like into the search bar of websites like twitter and even Reddit to some extent. What you will find more often than not, besides fan-art and porn are discussions about these characters.

After browsing through these discussions one can quickly notice a pattern. Ironwood and Adam are either demonized or have complicated discussions surrounding them. While characters like Raven and Cinder, while having their detractors mostly have discussions focused on shipping or on justifying/excusing their actions.

Raven Branwen is of course, the most iconic example of this.

Raven Branwen in Canon

In the canon of RWBY, Raven Branwen and her brother Qrow both hail from a bandit tribe. They were sent to Beacon to learn how to kill hunters where they learn the values of family and friendship, with team STRQ becoming close. Raven even marries Tai, her teammate and has a kid with him, then ditches him with the child and leaves Summer to come into the picture while Qrow remains an eternal bachelor.

It is revealed to us that Ozpins tendency to keep secrets is what lead Raven to losing trust and leaving the side of good. That, and feat of Salem who she knows is immortal and thus cannot be killed directly.

She returns to her bandit tribe and becomes a bandit queen, killing entire villages for loot and plunder. One of which we can see in the show.

Her becoming a bandit is not something that was thrust upon her, she was not forced to do it or anything of the sort. She chose to do it under her own volition.

Her only "redeeming" point is not being allied to Salem and having a "I will save you once" rule with those she knows and nothing more.

And yet...

Raven Branwen in Fanon

If we were to follow the most common discussions of Fanon then Raven is a tragic lesbian who could never be with Summer, a mother who understood her limits and wanted her daughter to have a better life than with her and who was forced into the position of providing for her tribe and had absolutely no choice but to raid villages for survival of her poor tribe.

If people arent thirsting over Raven herself and or her "romance" with Summer then one can always find many excuses and people calling her a "tragic" and "understandable" figure. They will say that "Shes not perfect" and things like that when in reality, Raven Branwen is just a straight up evil person in the story. Complicated? Yes. Evil? Also yes.

Her only saving grace is that most of the time she is not an antagonist. And she is not related to Salem and in fact would oppose her if she wasnt a coward. And yet, her actions, her being a literal murderous bandit seem to be ignored by a lot of the fandom.

The same fandom that will give shit to Ironwood for bringing 3 airships to Vale and calling it a "military occupation" and Adam wanting to blow up a train (with its crew) will then turn around and pretend that Raven killing innocent villages for shits and giggles on her own volition never happened.

They will cry about how Ironwood and Adam never deserved redemption! How they are deeply evil and have always been deeply evil people, while convincing everyone that Raven is perfect for redemption and was just "forced" to be a bandit queen.

The hypocricy of the RWBY FNDM is staggering, but not news.

What is worse however is how Raven is seemingly receiving the same if not even faster way of redemption that Emerald has. By now most people have probably seen both the RWBY:Beyond first episode and of course the ending animatic. And who else is there in Vacuo if not Raven. Shes just there. Like she just belongs amongst the heroes despite being a literal BANDIT QUEEN.

Despite Ironwood and Adam turning evil they had a good cause at the end of the day. A cause they wanted to fight for.

And instead the people praise and want the redeption of a terrorist who worked for Salem and a literal bandit queen, both of whom did the things they did out of selfish needs? Seriously?

Whats worse is that it seems that CRWBY is more than okay with that. It seems that this is at least currently one of their goals. Which to me is just staggering.

Conclussion i guess

Sorry for the ranty nature of this post. I know that im preaching to the choir but i just needed to get this out of my chest after seeing 10000000000000 posts about Raven and Summer fucking on twitter. Because yeah, THATS Ravens most identifying feature, being a girlkisser. After fucking years of being called a fascist and a bootliker for simply saying that Ironwoods heel turn was shittily done and that SOME of his plans were good it fucking maddens me to see people simp for a literal BANDIT QUEEN without push-back.

[the-elegant-necromancer]

So gonna have a really hot take here

I dont really post about the fandoms Im in or enjoy. But this is something thats kinda Irked me for a while.

This is a RWBY and yes I know how the fans are viewed so thats usually why I dont share much.

But

For the fans that want the Whiterose (Ruby x Weiss ) ship to sail all I have to say is; you then have to have Knightfall (Jaune x Cinder) become cannon. The way the interactions are going and the amount of explicit attention they are giving on screen for them. Its the same pattern they did with Blake and Yang just faster.

Weiss initiates physical contact with Jaune and is the first to comfort him in each of the moments he needs it. Not even counting the comedic 'thirst' scene Weiss has shown a lot of specific affection to him, and much more than her team.

I know Whiterose shippers are going to come for my throat but as I said, if you want that ship to actually happen then you will have to also accept a Cinder redemption arc ending with Jaune.

Thats my hot take on this discouse nonsense. You can have your Whiterose as long as we can have our Knightfall!

[autistic-ben-tennyson]

As a Ben Tennyson fangirl who was never around for the fandom discourse/drama of 2019-2021, I feel very much vindicated in learning that Emperorsfoot/Plumbersnullvoid who tried to promote that ableist “Ben is a sociopath” theory is a gross Zionist who reblogs stuff from racists like Jewishlivesmatter, which is an appropriation of BLM, and Prismatic Bell, who is a garbage human being for multiple reasons.

Some other "fandom Zionists" I suggest blocking: Short-Wooloo, Jedi-enthusiast. Tarisilmarwen, and Matt-The-Radar-Techncian.

[deadbeatbirdmom]

Fun fact: I don't like discourse. I realise that makes it a pretty strange choice to be involved in any fandom, considering discourse is pretty much inevitable, and even if I avoid taking part I'll still see it happening.

I do try to restrict how involved I get. I'm conflict averse, which probably explains a lot about why I don't like it.

But it does get very tempting to get involved when someone is wrong on the internet. At which point I try to remember a certain comic, and remind myself there's other things I'd rather do with my time. Like devour fic and fanart, and write my own fic. That probably makes it sound like I print it off fic and art and eat it or something. I have as yet not done that. Although maybe something could be printed edibly on a cake...

I also try not to respond to anything when I'm angry, and sometimes discourse has something in it that is just maddening. I don't want to take my anger out on anyone else if I can possibly help it. But it does get hard when discourse crosses the line and gets personal and insulting. The instinct is to lash out in return. I hope I manage to keep my own posts and reblogs civil. Ironic coming from a sideblog named after Raven Branwen, I know.

Here's the thing, though. Chances are our interpretations and headcanons are held too tightly for posts explaining the opposite stance in discourse to persuade anyone. And if things come across in an insulting way? That's just going to put people on the defensive. No wonder the same old discourse keeps coming back. The opinions behind them don't change. It's pointless, except as a means to find others who agree with you, and I guess to provide entertainment to neutral parties who watch on the sidelines.

[teamjlry]

"I don't know, and I don't care."

Yeah, I mean, I'm always on the verge of tears and raising my voice when I'm talking about things about which I don't care too.

[secret-engima]

As someone who has been in the Naruto fandom for *years* via reading fic well before I actually watched the show or started writing for it, I have only just now realized that my perspective on fandoms for trash-fire shows is skewed.

For instance when I say that “kishi’s timeline is garbage” the majority of the fandom who is also in Naruto for the fic and especially those who’ve had to try to make sense of his mishmash of conflicting dates or *lack* of dates understands that I’m not saying I hate the show, just that the timeline is. You know. Garbage. That, as a professional writer, he should really be better at managing his own timeline, especially when the majority of his fans are able to crack it open and make *multiple better versions* out of it. That doesn’t mean I dislike Naruto the show (save for the really tiresome parts nobody likes), I just enjoy cracking open canon and picking out the juicy bits for fic, or reading stories of others doing the same and like-.

As a whole, the majority of the Naruto fandom I have ever encountered over the years is in that same boat as me to some degree or other.

And now I’m getting back into writing rwby fic and I have come to the amused realization that this is, apparently, an unacceptable point of view to Certain Parts of the RWBY Fandom. Apparently, a random internet nobody like me sarcastically talking about how RT’s timeline skills suck and using what is in Naruto fandom a *very common joke* about “killing canon” is some kind of grave offense. Who knew!

I just thought that was amusing enough to comment on, now excuse me while I get back to lovingly shredding open rwby canon so I can pick out the fun bits for my fanfic, just like I do Naruto.

[anthurak]

Okay, okay. I will admit there is one good reason to de-age Jaune before the crew goes back to Remnant:

Because otherwise, I’m pretty sure the age-gap discourse that’s going to ensue from shipping Old-Man Jaune with basically anyone is going to be an absolute SHITSTORM.

[matt0044]

RWBY sure has weather a lot of storms and garnered a lot of love for what many deem "trash."

Big factor about RWBY hate from outside fan spaces is the lack of curiosity.

So... RWBY is claimed to be trash. Something so bad, so offensive to the senses that it warrants bloated YouTube video after bloated YouTube video to dress it down. Clearly you are better off not engaging with the actual thing.

Except... it's weird, isn't it? That the sh*t-talked RWBY has not only nine volumes so far to its name but also a spin-off animated by pros from Japan. Many of whom worked on the most acclaimed titles in Anime.

More than that, it had a run in DC Comics. Be it as tie-issues or legit crossovers with their superheroes. It even extends to a full on two part movie. It has three novels, two games and multiple Manga tie-ins from many up and coming Japanese Mangaka.

With all of that, is it really "trash?" Even Rooster Teeth dissolving couldn't tank the series. The detractors of RWBY always down play these elements because they know that curiosity will kill their narrative.

For the YouTubers, it's to keep up engagement with negativity. With your regular joes, it's... looking dumb. They don't want to be feel or be seen as an idiot for being wrong about what they've been primed to hate.

[illusory-torrent]

ladies, ladies! you’re all beautiful, can we stop fighting now?

[iamafanofcartoons]

Why “It could be better” is not used as legit criticism anymore, but just as attacks on a show.

"It could be better" is a statement that could be made about pretty much any show, any book series, anything. 

But if all you do is use that as an excuse to criticize without ever offering praise of the things you do like, you aren't a fan. You’re just insulting the media while claiming to be a fan to avoid being called a hater; a common tactic employed by RWBY Critics who harass fans while crying that they themselves are somehow victims of the RWBY Fandom.

 If I didn't just describe you, then I'm not talking about you, and you have no need to defend yourself because again I am not talking about you. 

If I did just describe you, look inward to solve the problem instead of lashing outward.

But at the end of the day, if you’re going to offer criticism in the form of “this could be better” you best be making sure you have good things to say in the first place.

I always find it funny whenever someone makes a post like this or talk about rwby critics, how much people act like they’re the most toxic person who can’t handle criticism, when post like these usually refer to people who aren’t in favor of the show and talk about how much rwby sucks or is trash and is a dumpster fire they can’t help but watch. Those people often disguise their hatred as a critique and think anyone calling them out on it, is you somehow not liking criticism when that isn’t true at all.

When it becomes all you are talking about, you never have any praise, your feedback is overwhelmingly negative, why keep watching? You are wasting your own time and everyone else who actually enjoys the show and has to put up with your constant whining then.

Like I said, to be considered a fan of something, you have to actually like it. To paraphrase a wise man, if it isn't enjoyable, why bother?

https://www.reddit.com/r/fnki/comments/z7a38k/in_the_same_fashion_that_tyrian_is_a_fan_of_life/

Here, let me show you what I saw.

[dextixer]

There is no point in discussing Ironwood/Atlas in the fandom.

Since Volumes 7-8 the way that Ironwood and Atlas were written, their actions, whether they were justified or to what extent they were justified and the like have been discussed to death. There is no stone that has not been overturned, no statement that has not been made, no argument that has not been disected.

Regardless of ones stance on the subject, there is nothing left to discuss, the only thing left at best is sharing ones interpretation and opinions on it with people willing to engage with them. Or it would be, if there were actually such people left.

Around a week ago, against my own better judgement i once again engaged in an Ironwood discussion, something that i have mostly avoided for nearly a year, and i got just the right reminder as to why exactly there is no point in discussing it with members of the FNDM, and especially the fanatics.

They do not care about the show, how its told, what it told us. What they care about is to show how "moral" and "morally upstanding" they are by repeating the same mantra over and over. "Team RWBY are heroes, Ironwood is a fascist.", its both to show how morally "good" they are and also to protect the writing of a product that they love, because their beloved product possibly being deficient would be seen as a personal attack on their taste.

Lie and Lie again, if that doesnt work, lie once more

One of the most important factors in having any discussion is for both of the people talking to not only be truthful with one another but also agree upon some level of common ground that a disagreement comes from. In the case of RWBY, an Animated show, one has to agree with what is canon, what we can see in the story, from where on we can start arguing about interpretations. The problem however is that many people in the fandom, in regards to Ironwood especially, do not care about canon.

This being one of many examples. Since as far back as Volume 7, when we saw Ironwoods forces, everyone could look back to Volumes 2-3 and see that Ironwood brought 3 airships to Vale, a small detachment for the security of the festival.

Yet time and time again, RWBY fans refer to it as an "army", implying some kind of excessive force, in fact, some people in the past have went as far as saying that Ironwood was MILITARILY OCCUPYING Vale with his forces, i am not kidding.

But the most often directly lied about scene is of course the scene of Ironwood abandoning Mantle. In the show, after seeing the chess piece, he encounters a seer left behind in his office, this seer allows him to talk to Salem who pretty much tells him she is coming, which is then confirmed by the Ace Ops saying that the Grimm sensors have ceased working. That is canon. And yet, many a RWBY fan often pretends that Ironwood takes his decision after seeing the chess piece and "conveniently" ignore the chat that Ironwood has with Salem.

Fans of RWBY will not hesistate to lie about the canon itself to make their point, for people who claim to appreciate the shows writing, they will often directly ignore or even contradict it just so that they could hold true to their moral obligations.

But what happens when lying doesnt work?

Misdirect, Motte and Bailey and bad faith

When direct lying fails, RWBY fans will often take a different stance, instead of directly talking about canon, they will instead make the most bad faith assumptions and arguments imaginable.

This often takes form in Omissions or other less direct types of lies. Many times, it wont even be lies, but the most riddiculous arguments that they dont themselves believe.

For example, saying that soldiers helping to protect an event from terrorists is a stupid move.

In Volume 7, one of the earliest things we see happen is that Ironwoods forces are fighting against Grimm, the Sabyrs when they breach into Mantle, after which Penny shows up to assist in cleaning them up. And yet, fans of RWBY will say that these soldiers were not meant to protect people against Grimm, they were meant to abuse the citizens of Mantle.

The same goes for the curfew that also gets established in that same Volume. It is done explicitly for peoples protection. They instead say that its to control people, implying that the threat of Grimm isnt real? Which is exceedingly funny since COVID lockdowns happend near the same time, which were also curfews that meant to protect people.

Ironwood shooting Oscar is also a key part of such misdirections. Often times when RWBY fans talk about Ironwood shooting Oscar they refer to him as a "child" a "defenseless child", conveniently ignoring the Ozpin shaped hole in his brain.

This is yet another form this takes. Strawmanning and of course, the reference to "Ironwood runs away" argument, which they hold as true despite the show never stating it ever. They take Ironwood statement that Atlas will always stay out of Salems reach as a direct statement that Atlas will just rise and stay away. And not for example become a flying city which is also a possibility.

This is also another example of dishonest arguments. RWBY fans pretend that Ironwood is classist, that he only wanted to save the rich and leave everyone else to die. Despite the fact that Ironwood ordered Mantle to be evacuated into Atlas and only wanted to leave to save as many people as he could regardless of status. And yet, they have to pretend that he only cares about the "rich".

But the most often seen tendency among RWBY fans in regards to argument is something else.

Doulethink

Doublethink is acceptance of two contrary opinions being right at the same time due to ideological reasons. For example, decrying someone as weak when convenient and as strong at the same time.

And RWBY fans love this type of argumentation, especially with Ironwood.

As shown before in a picture, they pretend that Ironwood only cared about the rich. And yet they also argue that as a fascist he hates and controls the rich by how he treats Jacques.

They will both pretend that Ironwood is a sociopath who wants to control the world and at the same time will claim how sorry they feel about his PTSD and how he clearly should have been thrown out of the army due to it.

Ironwoods prosthetics both show how he suffered so much and should have been told to sit out due to his clear mental issues, yet at the same time those prosthetics prove and show how evil he is, how he wants to replace his body with metal because he wants to be an unthinking machine.

They will pretend to care about how Ironwood holds 2/5 seats on the Atlas council, decrying how UNDEMOCRATIC he is being, yet at the same time, when convenient they will constantly bring up how Ironwood did not ask for Ozpins persmission for his actions in V2-V3. They pretend that he usurped Ozpin despite Ironwood acting directly under Vales council.

As shown in this exchange. The cries for "democracy" quiet down all of a sudden when people take Ozpins side against Ironwood. Suddently, the opinion of the council doesnt matter, only Ozpin does. Oh and this is also an example of how they will change the topic once an argument is lost.

Oh, and of course, their favourite is in regards to team RWBY.

Who are at the same time both small teenagers who know no better and cannot be judged for their actions because they are smoll beans uwu.

And they are also literal jesus.

Because NOTHING says "we are being honest" when the protagonists are amazingly "weak" and "smoll" uwu beans whenever anyone criticizes them for making shit decisions for entire COUNTRIES which they CHOSE to do. And at the same time those protagonists are amazing badass girbossing jesus-like heroes who everyone should worship.

Ending word

I guess what im trying to say is that there is simply no point or hope in arguing about Ironwood, or hell, even arguing with RWBY fans in general unless you are in relatively neutral spaces with people who are willing to listen. They will lie, if they cant lie they will misdirect, and they will never be honest about their beliefs. Because their true beliefs are only "RWBY is good and what it attempts to say is correct". Nothing else matters. RWBY is good. Its messages (no matter how mangled they are) are good.

And to protect those beliefs RWBY fans will do ANYTHING. Because just like religious fanatics, they have faith, a belief, and nothing will stop them. If you oppose them, you are everything they think is evil. If you accept their words uncritically, then you are now a "friend".

[supersaiyanjedi14]

Someone: posts something complaining about a ship they don't like and tags it with that specific ship. Me: Politely asks them to remove that tag, as people who do like that ship don't want their tag piled up with complaining about it. Same someone: Blocks me and continues to post their anti stuff in the tag.

Yeah, just putting this out there right now. If you do something like this, you're an asshole. I don't care what your opinions are on x, y or z, they are not universal. Ship tags are meant for, well, that ship, ideally from people who enjoy it and want to talk about it. If you don't like something, anti tags exist for the same reason so we can avoid them and post in peace. When you deliberately put something like that in the tag, something that people who do like it certainly do not want to see, then you're just being a jerk at best and looking to piss people off at worst.

To highlight my point, let me make something clear that I haven't brought up before. I hate the ship B*mbleby from RWBY, always have, always will, but I would NEVER tag a post where I go on about what I don't like about it (which I'm not going to do because I have more important things to do with my life than rant about fictional characters making out) with that tag. Why? Because there are a lot of people who do like it and they do not want to see someone filling up their tag with badmouthing. If I ever did make a post like that, it would be tagged anti-b*mbleby and nothing more.

And before anyone gets pedantic, I am not talking about comments on writing or similar critiques. Those are their own thing and belong in their own place. I am talking about things that basically amount to "I don't like this and I'm going to make it everyone else's business." Personal taste and opinions exist for a reason. If you don't like something, that's fine. Just tag your stuff properly and be respectful when people ask you to remove something withing reason. Certainly DON'T do what the other person here did.