#rwby salem critical

[the-path-to-redemption]

Salem! - mylittlerwde

ask meme

Long Post Ahead

SALEM

What are my top four favorite non-romantic relationship dynamics for them? - She and Tyrian got me in a grip, bro. They are so Bloodborne-coded, you have no idea. I also like the one she has with Watts, as little as we have, because he doesn't actually worship her, she's just a matron for his goals and she likes the developments he brings, a good evil partnership (even though she's still very much in charge). I also like the antagonistic relationship she has with Ruby, and how she taunts the poor thing about Summer. It was good, despite all of the flaws. Finally, I fuck with her and the Hound tremendously. God, what a fucking nightmare it was lmao, with how she just treats it better than her lackeys, almost motherly, until you realized that there is a person in there, there is a Silver Eyed Warrior that she captured, tormented, and disfigured in that Grimm. Man, when the horror hits like this, I almost forgot I hate the way CRWBY writes lol.

What season were they at their best and why? - O O F. I seriously cannot pick one, because wow the good moments she has just fucking comes and go without any consistency huh. Well, if I have to choose based on overall enjoyment? Probably 7 or 8, because they actually let her go full-on horror monster, and boy do we need that.

What season were they at their worst and why? - Uhhhhh, I would say...6? Because the way they wrote her backstory and how it went was wack. I love the evil bitches from the start, I do, and I was one of the people who never saw Salem as a good person even before she turned Grimm. But the narrative of Lost Fables was lame, and her complexity was nonexistent because "noooo my man died wahhh :((((" and I...I wish that by itself extended into more? Like, she was sad that what she thought was hers was taken from her, and that spiraled into a need to control the world instead of just like, destroy it for a man that she still murdered when he rightfully gtfo, I guess. Her character trope and the way it all went down are ideas that have been executed better, look no further than the character Father from Fullmetal Alchemist.

How would I rank their outfits from worst to best? - Well, seeing as how both of her outfits just reeks of Orientalism and sexism, both of them belong in the fucking trash. But if I have to rank them, the OG comes first, then her "war" outfit because....what was even there, bestie?

I'm not doing anything H*rry P*tter related, so this ain't gonna be a thing at all.

What do I think this character would be like if they were on the opposite side (good characters are bad, bad characters are good - Huh...Now that's an interesting thought. I thought she would be like Ozpin at first, but then I was leaning more towards her being a hermit trainer who watches over the world in the shadows instead of being a Headmaster, while the Headmasters themselves are either her close friends or studied under her before going into their Huntsman career. I can also see her having her own Huntsman training sect where her students have a unique style of Grimm hunting and Dust utilization due to her being a magician, but upon descending into the world they must never find her again (Baoshan Sanren from Mo Dao Zu Shi is a good example of this trope). A really low-key person.

If I suddenly had control of RWBY, what would I want to do with this character after the events of V8? - First of all, erase Vol 9-. In all seriousness? I would have her kickstart that world domination already, and keep up that level of high stake for the characters to actually deal with. Salem has become a high-level threat, and that would've made the tension not just between the main cast, but them against the world because of their actions, be more interesting. And obviously, have her just fucking blow Cinder apart already. That bitches literally did shit for you but steal the work other lackeys did for you, Salem, just kill her.

[rhatatootie]

Just saw a post about how RWBY became unwatchable after they killed Watts off but like the second he started mouthing off at Cinder I knew he was dead. Like did she need to hear some of that sure but Cinder is not about to take criticism from someone like WATTS.

Cinder is a maiden with the backing of SALEM, a trigger finger and something to prove. Was Watts right? Yeah, but now he’s got to die. He’s annoying and useless. Cinder used him for what she needed and discarded him. He got “everything he deserved.”

And it’s not like he’ll be missed necessarily. He had knowledge of atlas tech but atlas does not exist anymore. He didn’t even have one of the top three semblances on Salems team when it was still whole - those three spots going to Hazel, Emerald and Tyrian - like he was not making it out of volume 8 and I think it’s so funny that people are mad about that. Salem is not about to miss him she didn’t even ask about him :P.

He mouthed off at trigger finger, power hungry, has something to prove Cinder, and then expected her not to retaliate. Yeah okay lmaoooo

[howlingday]

Ruby: Oh, Ms. Salem~!

Salem: What do you want?

Ruby: (Drive-by fires gatling gun into Salem, Speeds off on Bumblbee)

Salem: (Groans) That kid is a pain in the ass!

[jocelynmakenna]

Now believe you me, crack theories are wonderful but I'm starting to delude myself into thinking ludinus is actually the old god of death and he's trying to take back his place from the woman who stole it from him.

Would also explain why he's so old I guess...

[fanstuffrantings]

Realizing my favorite rwby seasons thus far have been the ones where the faunus racism plot was so nonexistent I could ignore it or blink and miss it.

[anthurak]

Ever since I started posting about the Rosebird Parents theory, aka ‘Raven is Ruby’s real dad’, the most common question/criticism I’ve gotten regarding it* has been ‘What is the point of such a reveal?’ and ‘What does this add to the story?’

Well here is the answer:

A reveal that Taiyang isn’t Ruby’s father and that Raven IS would fit PERFECTLY into Ruby’s and Yang’s looming family drama, the dysfunctional MESS that is the STRQ family, and just how much said family FAILED Ruby and Yang as parents.

Raven being Ruby’s real father is the final, ultimate ‘dirty little secret’ of Team STRQ that they’ve kept from Ruby and Yang all these years.

Not some grand plot reveal tied up with Salem, the relics and/or Oz. But rather this much more PERSONAL and ugly product of STRQ’s numerous personal hangups, baggage and dysfunctions.

And far from being ‘out of character’, Tai and Qrow keeping such a secret from Ruby and Yang would be par for the course. Not just for them, but basically EVERY OTHER ADULT in the show. Whether it’s letting Yang think that Summer was her birth mother until Yang figured it out only AFTER Summer (supposedly) died, or Qrow letting Yang think he didn’t know anything about where Raven was despite having been in contact with her for YEARS and even having a pretty good idea where she is, or of course ALL THE OTHER SHIT the adults of RWBY have been hiding from their kids/students/charges.

And let’s not forget how Volume 9 ended with Ruby discovering a massive secret that was long kept from her and COMPLETELY changes something she once believed about her family. With the Blacksmith commenting “Who knows why they kept the secrets they did…”

Or how the last episode of Beyond has Ruby herself commenting to Yang “Maybe we don’t have the full picture…” in regards to Tai’s absence from Vacuo.

Throw in just how LITTLE we can truly be sure of regarding Team STRQ thanks to the aforementioned unreliable narrators and this is ABSOLUTELY telegraphing that Ruby and Yang are due for some MASSIVE reveals regarding their family in the near future. And given all the other hints or flat out statements as to what a hot fucking dysfunctional MESS Team STRQ truly is, those reveals are almost certain to be ugly and painful.

So a reveal that Tai and Qrow have actually been lying to Ruby and Yang for their ENTIRE LIVES in regards to who Ruby’s father ACTUALLY is?

Yeah, that sounds EXACTLY like something we could be expecting.

--

*At least as far as actual arguments go and not people just going ‘WAAAA! I don’t like Raven so this theory is bad!’ and ‘Well… you’re just crazy/stupid, so there!’

[iamafanofcartoons]

Is it me or the hate for Cinder and Salem comes from the fact that they're female the critics hate that the two main villains of RWBY are female?

Well, there's this. But yeah, also this

And

[rachetmath]

 Okay, I know some people might be mad at me, but I stand by this. Volumes seven and eight were the most horrible volumes to me. Many you would say because of Ironwood and how the heroes betrayed him. And I would say, “Yes. That is absolutely the reason.” However, that is not the only reason I hate those volumes, especially with nine.

Ren and Oscar:

Ren and Oscar were the MVP s of volumes seven and eight. In volume seven, Ren was concerned with lying to James and was more worried about the people's safety. He became the most emotional in the group and started acting somewhat critical to the point he lashed out at Nora, Yang, and Jaune. This causes Nora to become somewhat distant from him and Jaune to be a little disappointed, especially after mentioning he cheated Beacon. However, after a little talk with Jaune and yelling at Harriet, Ren semblance evolves to where he can read emotions.

Oscar, who was willing to trust James when Ruby, for reasons, didn’t. Who openly told James the truth about Salem, then gets shot for it. Then gets found by his friends and immediately gets taken by Salem’s forces. He then persuades Hazel to betray Salem and gets Emerald on the side of good.

Here’s the problem, Ren didn’t do anything. Like, he didn’t try to fill James in on anything. He stood by his friends and still carried out the lie. And then his evolution really was unnecessary and wasn’t well-earned. And many of you might say, “But he earned it by standing up to Harriet. And it helped them in some way.” Okay, but hears the thing. First off, Harriet was going to hurt Ren if Winter didn’t stop her. And second, his semblance wasn’t even that useful in finding Oscar.

Now Oscar, he just overstayed his welcome. He somehow persuaded Hazel to betray Salem… Even though he is the reincarnation of the man he hates. He gave away the information to Hazel, who was ordered to collect that intel by Salem, which Hazel got mad at Oscar about afterward. But what did he offer Hazel to make him switch sides, considering Ozpin still can’t kill her? Why offer the last question to him? He already knows everything.

 And then Emerald, whom he met once and tried to kill Ruby in Heaven, Oscar managed to get her to join the hero side. Why? Why would the characters who not only met Emerald but were betrayed by her and Cinder be willing to trust her? Because Oscar says so? And what makes it worse is Ren agrees to it first because of his evolution. The reason it doesn’t make sense to me is because it’s coming from the wrong characters. Which brings me to my next problem.

Jaune and Nora:

Mainly, Jaune was my issue. However, we will talk about Nora first. Mainly on how the writers gave her the Jaune treatment. Nora was more concerned for the people of Mantle, while Ren was concerned for the entire world. This is due to Nora’s backstory where she was poor, parentless, and alone on the streets. Nora knew exactly how the people were feeling. So you would think out all the characters, she would most likely side with Robyn. Maybe even so far as to tell her what’s going on. But then it was Yang and Blake. Even though Yang was completely against lying to Ironwood and was calling Ruby out on it. (But hey, bumblebee matters.) Then what made Nora's coming out party even more hollow is she leaves Mantle to her teammates, while she goes back to Atlas with the majority of team RWBY, only to be knocked unconscious for half of volume eight. All while thinking about only Ren.

Jaune got it the worst though. Not just with the fact that he had to kill Penny even though he trained with his semblance and probably the most innocent and cool headed person on the group. But as I said before, a lot of Ren and Oscar's actions were pointless - no, didn't make sense because they fit Jaune’s character more.

Look, I said this before, but Jaune has no reasons to trust James. Not only because of Leon’s betrayal but Ozpin whose secrets came to light. Jaune had his trust broken two times. By Headmasters, no less. And you may say, “Ironwood gave Jaune and his friends their licensees early. And a place to stay.” True enough, however, Jaune knows Salem exists. James is trying to keep her a secret until Amity Arena is ready for launch. Who's to say he’s not giving them their licenses and a place to stay to keep an eye on them? (However, that’s not true. Considering Ironwood as we have seen has done nothing wrong to them.) That’s something for Jaune to consider. And even though he could feel sorry for the citizens of Mantle, that doesn’t mean he would fully trust Robyn either, due to her methods causing more harm than good. (The only reason anyone would side with Robyn is that she is a better choice than Jacque. Plus, why do we just see Yang argue about this? Why would Jaune agree to something that he almost hurt Oscar for?)

Basically, Jaune should have been the middle man from the start of volume seven, and in volume eight he brings everyone together. In volume seven, we could’ve had Jaune struggling due to having to help Atlas and Mantle as a huntsman while training to extend his aura, keeping his team together, and watching out for Tyrian, who said he had an interest in him (still don't know why.), and Salem. Jaune would’ve had a hard time, especially because his friends would have been making things worse, and he had to follow up on their actions. (More importantly, Jaune might as well learn to stand on his own two feet as huntsman and a leader. Otherwise, how is he important to the story?)

Then in volume eight, when Ren lashed out at him, Jaune would have had more to prove. Imagen Jaune negotiating with Winter on letting them go in to save Oscar. Offering the relic as leverage so they can find Penny, who mind you they were looking for. Rushing in, extending his aura, and going on his own to find Oscar while relying on his friends to do their part. Then having to fight and reason with Hazel to help him. Even to promise Hazel a future where no more people need to die due to Salem’s and Ozpin’s war, considering Jaune lost Pyrrha. Even maybe seeing Hazel ask Jaune to bring Emerald with him. Jaune learning to trust Emerald, despite everything she’s done because he may need her or sees her redeeming qualities. All this, though unintentionally, is to prove Ren wrong. That he’s capable of doing great things and making him a supposedly better leader than Ironwood. He’s based on Jeanne D'Arc, right? Who was the biggest turnaround in the war for France in 1429. A leader and influencer who managed to convince her allies to join her side. Despite being a woman and a peasant with no proof that angels told her to help in the war.

(Okay, look, many of you might say, “Jaune is not a good fighter” which I agree… but isn't a fight more like a debate using strength and knowledge. And we have seen Jaune fight just not with human opponents.Him fighting Hazel may determine how far he has come from when we met him. Also Jaune’s and Hazel's character a true opposite 

Plus the whole point of Hazel’s character is him being a broken man with nothing left to lose. A man who lost all faith in humanity and the hunting world ever since his sister and possibly his whole family were slain by it. His faith slipped the moment he met Salem and found out she was immortal and cannot be killed, making his sister's untimely death even more worth less. However, Jaune is the opposite.

Jaune lost Pyrrha. He lost the very first friend and could've been lover to the hunting world. He was betrayed by others who he thought were  his allies. To make matters worse he too learns of Salem’s immortality. Yes, he was angered by this information. Furious. Almost enough that he would have done the same things Hazel was doing out of spite. But he didn't. He still fights the good fights.

Hazel is man who feels no pain. Sees an indifference between Ozpin and Oscar. Mainly because unlike Jaune he never hanged out with Oscar. So Jaune who was already worried for Oscar, especially after he got kidnapped would be the one to oppose and object Hazel for his actions. Believing that his actions will not only not bring his sister back… but mainly dishonor her. I'm just saying these two should have fought.)

But that’s it for volumes seven and eight. Look, I don't hate Ren and Oscar. However, as some of you complain about Jaune getting too much screen time or being a self insert but when Oscar does the same thing, no one talks about it and are ready to defend other characters and not call out their levels of screen time. Or how they don't fit into the situation. There were plenty of better things Jaune and Nora could have done beside kill or nap for the volumes. Instead, they’re pushed to the side until the writers need an escape goat to advance the plot.

(Also if you are wondering why I am just talking about team JNRO then I am going to be straight forward with you. TEAM JNRO CARRIED THE WHOLE ATLAS VOLUME. And mean main character wise..They save team RWBY. They were the main one probably keeping the people of Mantle and Atlas alive. Jaune killed Penny to save Winter. Basically unlike team RWBY, team JNRO were doing their FUCKING jobs. Hate me if you want to.)

[bestworstcase]

Hello, long time lurker and fan of your analyses here. There is one thing that I've been thinking over in relation to how people in the fandom react to Salem, that I'm puzzled with.

I followed one blog because of their posting about a game, and the villain of the game have extraordinarily similar circumstances to Salem, and that got me reflecting...

Both of them had tragic circumstances (or at least, implied), both of them were "corrupted" by "dark creatures" and considered "evil" because of it, both were betrayed by loved ones and both had their faith in the gods shattered and rejected them and deride divinity, but I see that there is much more analyses, understanding and sympathy for the guy than for her.

He wasn't portrayed to be very sympathetic in the game (in fact, he wasn't that present, showing up mostly at middle-end) and most of his characther was informed by a movie and a dlc, and yet...

Why would that be? It is because gamers are more prone to sympathyze with villains? It's because Salem's a woman, or that people are more willing to see depth in video games than in animation? It is lack of media literacy?

Thank you for your time!

it’s gender. mostly

(*without knowing the other story it’s difficult to say how much narrative framing contributes to the disparity, but framing can have a significant influence; by this i don’t mean whether the character is portrayed sympathetically per se but more, whose perspective do we see? what details are given focus?

salem as a character has been kept extremely opaque—the lost fable is narrated from ozpin’s perspective so we don’t really know why she does anything, we only know why ozpin believes she did everything; to understand her v1/v3 soliloquies we need context given in v6 and arguably v9 before it’s possible to start piecing together what she’s really talking about / what she really means, etc—and that’s something rwby does on purpose, because it’s Making A Point about the power that storytellers have over their audiences, and truth being more difficult to come by than asking for just one side of the story.

which has the effect of making salem a difficult character. the thematic point the story is making with her character is that it is really, really easy to fall for dehumanizing propaganda if that’s the only source of information you have. to see beneath the surface with her you really need to pay close attention to what she says and does and be very skeptical of what other characters say about her, including the authoritative spirit of knowledge [i.e. you need to pick up on ruby only asking specifically for ozpin’s side of the story AND that it’s never stated by anyone that jinn’s answers are objective factual truth AND that the lamp probably works like the staff in that she answers the exact wording of the questions put to her]. because the narrative we’re getting about her is heavily steeped in in-universe propaganda designed to convince people that she’s an unreasonable, deceitful, supremely manipulative and malevolent, inhuman monster.)

<- but with that being said. fandom is always much more critical of female characters than male ones, and it tends to be much more difficult to persuade a fandom to dedicate this level of interest and energy to a female character than a male one. you can see this in action even within just the rwby fandom: compare the fan reception of raven vs taiyang, for example, with leaving her child in the care of two loving parents because she felt unable to take good enough care of yang being styled as the worst most horrid unforgivable thing a mother could do whereas letting his five year old "pick up the pieces" is often… flat out ignored in favor of headcanon that he’s the best dad ever.

or just the fact that the vast majority of the fandom regards the lost fable fight as "salem murdered her kids, ozma died trying to protect them" even though that is explicitly contradicted by what’s shown on screen with both ozma and salem being equally aggressive and oz having no idea what happened to those girls from the instant the fight began because he wasn’t thinking about them; they BOTH killed their kids in their fury at each other. but the fanon is that salem murdered her children on purpose in a vengeful rage and ozma was a good dad—in its most extreme form this becomes the Dadpin Nonsense.

(there is also an extremely funny talking point in dadpin circles to the tune of "if ozlem were gender-swapped no one would question that salem was abusive!" as if a) tauradonna shippers who scream and cry about blake being abusive don’t exist and b) dadpin people wouldn’t eat ozpin alive if he was a woman)

it’s complicated by the reality that salem does do a lot of very horrible things—terroristic attacks, enabling a serial killer by using him as her attack dog, her abusive treatment of cinder, everything she does to lionheart, sacking atlas, razing vale—and her moments of restraint or mercy are very easy to miss (she actively disguises her own release of her hostages in 8.9 for example) and again you have to be very attentive to detail to pick up on the fact that she cares about cinder. so it isn’t like she has an obvious "good side" juxtaposing all the atrocities, which means except for those who make a conscious decision to try to figure out what’s going on in her head while keeping an open mind, no one is going to see anything but the atrocities.

and again, fandom in general is a lot more willing to do that with male characters than female ones.

i think the clearest sign that It’s The Misogyny is the sheer amount of extremely widespread, extremely entrenched fanon there is about salem that is straight up contradicted by the text. her supposed "disdain" for humanity, for example; people act like it’s outrageous and nonsensical to suggest that salem thinks highly of humankind in the abstract (despite her indifference to individual people) even though… in both of her soliloquies she speaks quite highly of mankind… or her supposed "obsession" with magic, never mind that she barely uses "real" magic herself (most of what she does is Grimm Stuff, and she uses dust to make her grimm battlewhale fly) and never mind that she keeps flat out warning cinder that magic "comes with a cost." etc. this is a kind of flanderization driven by people disregarding what she says/does and mentally inserting generic villain tropes to fill in the gaps of story they miss by doing that, and then these ideas become memetically repeated often enough that they become the accepted lens through which everything she does is refracted.

(and that is how you get nonsense takes like "salem calls emerald’s semblance a semblance because she’s furious that this pitiful imitation of REAL MAGIC somehow fooled her, not because 'semblance' is what that kind of magic is called." this is why salem’s the only adult character who’s read as condescending and disdainful when she refers to the 17-19 year olds as children, even though all the older adults and some of the teenagers themselves do that. etc. there’s a preconceived notion that salem is disdainful of humanity and the text is bent to fit that reading even to the point of creating the absurd double standard that it’s… wrong for salem to use the same language used by every other character in the story?)

this kind of sexism is covert and usually subconscious; it emerges out of disinterest and an unexamined reflex to read female characters as less competent / less moral / less complex / less trustworthy / less rational etc. than their male counterparts, often with a side helping of blaming bad things male characters do on female characters instead. (eg see team rwby being blamed for things ironwood does in v7-8 by certain circles, or the constant "everything oz does is justified because salem evil" drumbeat).

watch how fast this fandom turns on summer rose once she turns out to be neither a martyred paragon nor a slave.

[itsclydebitches]

CLYDE. I was thinking about the RWBY vs Ace Ops fight again because it's one my least favourite moments in the entire show and I realised that Qrow/Clover/Robyn weren't part of the conversation prior, nor were they ever acknowledged. Nothing of the effect that "Hey, maybe we should wait for Qrow/Robyn/Clover's opinion on this plan before moving onwards, considering their experience and leadership skills?" before being shut down that time is of the essence and they can't wait for them. It just feels illogical to have the Ace Ops leader, Mantle's primary representative and the leader of the Happy Huntresses and one of James' closest allies be completely absence from one the most impactful turning points of the Volume. It feels they were either purposely left out arbitrarily for the sake of two poorly conceived fights or the writers just forgot...which wouldn't be the first time. This show is very...frustrating to say the least.

YEAH. The other day I was thinking about RWBY and ludonarrative dissonance in video games. Specifically, the number of action/adventure games I've played that have a, "OMG COMPLETE THIS MISSION IMMEDIATELY TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE SOMEONE IS GONNA DIE!!" narrative paired with a "Look at all these fun side quests populating the map, you should totally spend a month of in-game time leisurely exploring them" gameplay. RWBY feels similar to me (minus the interactive elements, obviously). The narrative continually pushes the urgency of the situation, but what the characters do don't align with that. Waiting in the mansion is the classic, go-to example of this, but it's also seen in questions like, "If the group is so concerned with the safety of the Relic why don't they.... put it in the vault?" and "If Qrow needs to speak to Ironwood so badly, why doesn't he just... go to Ironwood in handcuffs rather than starting a fight that, unforeseen airship crash or not, is gonna SUPER delay him getting there." Importantly, these moments go beyond the characters simply making impulsive, fallible, human decisions. It always feels like the writers haven't thought through the situation, or are so focused on one (badly chosen) outcome that they'll ignore all logic to get there.

So, same idea with this fight. I completely understand Ironwood's position because there is a clear line of logic here. Salem is about to attack, the group has consistently lied/undermined him, ergo he is removing a potential threat by locking them up until this battle/escape is complete. No one has to agree with him, but I think the reasoning makes sense both in general and for his specific character. (Which is also one of the reasons why I think some fans are willing to hear consider his side: his writing, however messy in other places, is leagues beyond the group's, particularly in the first half of the Atlas arc.) The girls though? They're all over the place. They don't want secrets but they're going to keep them from Ironwood. But they're also going to spill them all to Robyn, someone they don't know and shouldn't trust. They want to save everyone but have no idea how and can't/won't troubleshoot an answer. They're determined to unite the people but are simultaneously determined to solve their problems with a fight. They start said fight and then Ruby immediately tries to talk her way out of it again. And, as you say, they ignore that unity/experience/help available to them by not looping the others in because, supposedly, there's just no time... but then we have long scenes where they just sit around the mansion, tearfully bemoaning the fact that they don't know what to do and getting angry that no one has magically shown up to help.

I can EASILY picture a better-if-not-perfect scenario where the girls' decisions in that fight actually follow their proclaimed intentions AND the not-actually-very-critical timeline they have (because remember, even after all this Salem just sits there for an extended time.) What if Ruby ordered the team to let themselves get arrested and then we got a cool break out of jail scene? (I mean... Ruby blasts through Ironwood's steel doors that are meant to keep people in + they sneak into Atlas HQ. Clearly this would not have been difficult for them.) What if they ran into Qrow and Robyn while in their cells? Or what if they escaped, realized they needed their uncle, and started a help Mantle/find Qrow dual mission? What if instead of broadcasting a horrifying and near incomprehensible message to the whole world, they spoke to all their allies in Atlas about the plan they'd come up with, calling them together? Maybe coded so Cinder wouldn't understand. Maybe bluntly honest like a gauntlet throw-down: we know you're here, but we're ready for you this time.

Instead Ruby forgets she exists...

There are just SO many things you can do with that fight/the aftermath that don't completely undermine the themes, the tension, the proclaimed desires, and the narrative expectations. If there has to be a battle of ally vs. ally when Salem is on her way and half our villains are roaming the streets (god I can't emphasize that enough), why is everyone with the wrong person? Why isn't Robyn fighting the Ace Ops, her political enemy long before the girls showed up? Why isn't Qrow fighting Ironwood, the guy he (stupidly) blames for Clover's death? Why isn't Clover with his team? Why isn't Ruby facing Salem? Why the hell would you have Qrow team up with Tyrian?

As a side note, I've seen a resurgence of discussion about Ruby's breakdown in Volume 9 and everything above re-emphasizes for me just how much she HAS demanded this power and responsibility. "Hey, maybe we should wait for Qrow/Robyn/Clover's opinion on this plan before moving onwards, considering their experience and leadership skills?" is one of MANY considerations when weighing the question of whether Ruby has truly been burdened with the unwanted expectations of others... because they've never been unwanted and she has never down a thing to lessen that burden. She doesn't wait. She doesn't ask. She doesn't lean on others' experience and leadership. And this goes all the way back to Ruby responding, "Yes, I want to attend Beacon and take on all the responsibilities of that despite not being old enough," but there is also a LOT in the Atlas arc - right before her Volume 9 breakdown, literal hours in-world - where Ruby stood her ground and said, "No, we're doing this my way and my team, whether they've disagreed with this decision, or suggested this course of action in the first place, will ultimately follow me because I am the leader." She told Qrow to stand down and let her continue fighting Cordovin. She made the decision to lie to Ironwood and talked the others out of coming clean. She made the call to attack the Ace Ops instead of submitting to arrest. Using the Relic and dropping Atlas was a group suggestion, but Ruby sanctioned it. Based on literally 8 Volumes of content, if anyone HAD said no to her Ruby would not have listened to them. That is an overt, consistent characterization of hers.

And then Volume 9 expects me to feel bad because she's going, "Everyone expects me to take the lead"??? Like sure, in a very general, "That's indeed stressful no matter who's at the helm" sense, but Ruby has spent years at this point loudly yelling, "I'M THE PERSON YOU SHOULD LOOK TO AND I'LL FIX IT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY PLAN I'LL FIGHT YOU :)" Not roping Qrow and the others in is a part of all that. Not overtly on screen - we don't have a scene where Ruby goes, "We don't need to talk to them" - but the story doesn't think their input is important. We get the closeup on her smiling face when she thinks of using the Relic and then the others just inform Winter of what is happening when she happens to call. Major decisions in RWBY have often been collaborative when it comes to suggestions, but the final call is always Ruby. Whether we're talking about "This is my fight too!" when Qrow warns her to stay back, or using the Lamp's question when Ozpin is begging her not to, or shrugging off Yang's concern that she lied to Ironwood, or telling the whole damn world about Salem when numerous people with more experience than her have said, "That's a terrible idea" for generations, Ruby forcibly takes the lead and will not back down no matter who is asking that of her, or how they're asking. In fact, I'd say that is the most OVERT and CONSISTENT way in which she displays agency in this show (which, ugh).

[thousandyearphantombunker]

“The titan said Belos is evil tho! Are you stupid the show said he was evil!”“Masha said lil’ bro just got jelly that his brother got a girlfriend! He doesn’t have depth and his ending was supposed to be unsatisfying!”“But James Ironwood losing his arm is supposed to represent him losing his humanity”“Jason Rose said that James could’ve always become evil and sided with Salem”“They literally called him genocide general!”“But in this Q&A they said the puppies survived they just lost their laser powers! And in the tie-in material, they showed everyone was fine! You just hate Starco!”“The show/tie-in material/a fucking Q&A said blah blah blah!”These arguments are shit. TOH- “God says witches are evil so it is his duty to kill them!” is a pretty horrible justification for killing someone except when the titan says it to Luz. I don’t think Luz is in the wrong for killing Belos, he was a genocidal maniac and child abuser and genuinely irredeemable- nobody who hates the ending of The Owl House complains about Belos being irredeemable, they complain about the show flopping the cult critical message, how hunter’s possession felt like needless shock value, the show not properly setting up the collector or how the coven system/conformitorium’s writing is a mess or how Eda becoming a teacher makes as much sense as Toph becoming a cop and you can go ‘but the show said-’ what the show said had unfortunate implications, was uncomfortable to abuse survivors, and I can’t forgive the ass-pullery of the trailer-bait nightmare sequence or how in the hexside crew became irrelevant! When people complain about how Belos was handled nobody complains about him not getting a redemption arc- they complain that hunter should’ve been there to see belos die or how they hate Luz’s power up. RWBY -James Ironwood’s and Penny’s character arcs and deaths felt so ableist it’s actually uncomfortable to watch, I have ASD my sister, and like half of the people I know have PTSD, I don’t know any amputees but I’ve seen plenty making noise about how shit the writing was. Good, they should be mad! The show’s message about prosthetics/amputations was toxic! Not mention for all the hopeful messages Team RWBY screams at the top of their lungs about trust they knowingly broke Ironwood’s trust for very poorly defined reasons! while I do think ruthless pragmatism is a bad thing, team RWBY offered no alternatives, he wasn’t a villain- he was facing an ethical dilemma and got fucked over. And SVTFOE- I shouldn’t have to buy tie-in materials to understand the show- tie-in material should be a bonus not a supplement or requirement, I Don’t have to buy the ATLA comics inorder to understand the show, I don’t have to read all of Lord Of The Rings to understand the movies. It doesn’t matter how the show was supposed to be interpreted or how the audience is supposed to feel, and It’s perfectly valid for the audience not to care about damage control spinoffs (cough cough Steven Universe) or Q&A’s or whatever. I’ll admit sometimes the audience is fucking stupid and completely media illiterate but can we stop acting like anyone who doesn’t blindly consume product and go with what the writers said are stupid? I know im not articulating this well but I’m pissy rn and I’m having trouble deconstructing whats wrong with those kind of arguments but god there is so much wrong with these arguements

[the-path-to-redemption]

reminder that we don't know the timeline for blake's adventures in v4 because the writers never gave one, so we don't know how long they were on the boat & most important of all. sun doesn't fit the criteria for stalking: which is following with intent to cause psychological distress or harm.

if we can use terms as they're actually meant to be applied, anon, it would save everyone a lot of headaches. blake's emotional state does not excuse abuse no more than adam's trauma excused his abuse of her. blake violently hit sun multiple times, simply for the "crime" of annoying her. she's abusive.

^^^^^^ all of this right here.

Sun has flaws that should be considered: his leadership issues, his recklessness. But to call him a stalker?? Not even close. Again, Blake has a history of doing dangerous things on. Her. Own. Knowing that about her and being a caring person, Sun would most likely come because he doesn't want her hurt anymore than she already has in Beacon.

I also fucking hate the trend of a male character's trauma being underplayed in order to make them worse characters (even in the case of Adam, and none of it excuses his abuse on Blake) while a female character's being uplifted as a "get out of jail free" card for any heinous actions they commit. Almost every hate anon/anti-rwde have this going on, and it needs to stop.

Blake abusing her friend? She's being stalked! Cinder constantly slapping and verbally abusing Emerald? She was a child slave! Salem making sure that every incarnation of Ozma remembers that she can always kill them in their little prey-predator dynamic? She was locked in a tower all her life and was grieving his death!

Enough with this already. The characters are flat like this, and it won't make me like them at all. And it doesn't make you look good, anon. It makes you an abuse apologist.

[strqyr]

Tbh I think an issue the rwby fandom has when it comes to analyzing the story and making theories n stuff, is that they forget to include what DOESN'T happen.

Like you can make a million assumptions based on what did happen! And that stuff is obviously important. But it's really easy to miss the stuff that doesn't happen, despite that being just as important.

Cause like,, let's throw an example out there. Some people say Oz is bigoted, and on the surface, if you only look at what did happen (Oz interrogating Blake and thinking she could be White Fang still, and thus be connected to Salem). But there's many things there that DIDN'T happen; Blake never pointed out Oz being bigoted (she would've done so had she felt he was), she never complained afterwards of Oz seeming to target her, and Blake wasn't intimidated at all. All she criticized him for was for 'not trying hard enough' to clean out Vales systemic racism, which was pretty fair. Not only that, but the story doesn't say Oz is wrong for thinking this, nor does Blake seem to blame him for being cautious.

There's many more examples of what did happen vs what didn't happen but I can't think of any atm lol. Essentially you can't rely on just one side of a story. Plus the framing is important, as well as what purpose something might serve narratively (and Oz being bigoted... serves absolutely no purpose).

Sorry for rambling in your inbox for the millionth time, hope you like it lol

yup. it's very easy to cherry-pick scenes and what parts of them to focus on to make it fit into whatever conclusion you've come to, or theory you're crafting. like, it's a thin line to walk and confirmation bias is one hell of a thing, but there's a difference between making up your mind and then working backwards to make everything fit into that conclusion (selective, if one must) vs looking at scenes, analyzing them, seeing what is being portrayed, how it's portrayed, and then if it forms a pattern that keeps repeating, you very well might have something there.

using the ozpin & blake scene as an example: yes, ozpin questions blake. yes, some of it comes across as accusative. but look at the end of the scene when ozpin tells blake that if she ever needs to talk to him, she shouldn't hesitate to ask, with this look on his face:

ozpin isn't just being cautious over the possibility that blake is undercover for the white fang / possibly salem, he's worried; "you wouldn't have been the first," he tells her when blake claims to have just been "at the right place at the right time." in regards to the white fang's presence at the shipyard that night.

this is not ozpin's first rodeo. blake is not the first troubled teen who may be involved in something she'd rather not and is looking for a way out but doesn't know how; she's paralleled with the branwens the most for a reason, me thinks lol

it's a small moment right at the end of the scene, and because of it it may not leave a lasting impact in the same way as the rest does, but it still exists, shining a new light on the rest of the scene.

[thecatfight2023]

The Bracket™ is here!

here are our competitors!

to space out the polls some, we have them divided in mini-brackets (each mini bracket will be posted a day as to not overwhelm everyone with all of the polls at once)

THIS WILL ALSO BE UPDATED TO HAVE THE LINKS TO THE POLLS!!

mini-bracket 1

Mewo (OMORI) V. Spider Cat (OMORI)

Domino (Amphibia) V. Ghost (The Owl House)

Thomas O’Malley (Aristocats) V. Marie (Aristocats)

Oliver (Oliver & Co.) V. Mochi (Big Hero 6)

Cat (Coraline) V. Cheshire Cat (Alice in Wonderland)

Tasque (Deltarune) V. Tubbs (Neko Atsume)

Daffodil (Spiritfarer) V. Black Cat (The Witch’s House)

Neite (Runescape) V. Black Cat (Divinity Original Sin 2)

Alpine (Marvel) V. Goose (Marvel)

Isis (Batman: The Animated Series) V. Alfred the Cat (DC)

Mikeko (Ace Attorney) V. Shoe (Ace Attorney)

Cats (Jet Set Radio Future) V. Shadow (Super Lesbian Animal RPG)

Fat Louie (The Princess Diaries) V. Orion (Men in Black)

Milo (Milo & Otis) V. Miss Kitty Fantastico (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

Cat God (Identity V) V. Yuumi (League of Legends)

Opalescence (MLP:FIM) V. Ice Cream Kitty (TMNT 2012)

mini-bracket 2

Ichigo Momomiya [cat form] (Tokyo Mew Mew) V. Alto (Tokyo Mew Mew)

Kyo Sohma [cat form] (Fruits Basket) V. Kuro (Blue Exorcist)

Sakamoto (Nichijou) V. Kuroneko (Trigun)

Prince (Genshin Impact) V. Neko (Genshin Impact)

Pusheen (Pusheen) V. Simon’s Cat (Simon’s Cat Animations)

Nyan Cat V. Minecraft cats

Video (Strong Hearts are Mandatory) V. Ginger (Brimstone and Roses)

Midnight (Castle in the Air) V. Jenny Linsky (Jenny Linsky books)

Schrodinger’s cat V. Tuna Sandwich (Kid Cosmic)

Pura (Crash Bandicoot) V. George (Spyro)

Tom F14 (Atom: The Beginning) V. Murr (The Case Study of Vanitas)

Mausfänger (Pentiment) V. Myau (Phantasy Star)

Cam (Squishmallow) V. Autumn (Squishmallow)

Serafina (Barbie Princess and the Pauper) V. Wolfie (Barbie Princess and the Pauper)

Melog (She-Ra 2018) V. Curious Cat (RWBY)

Judd + Lil Judd (Splatoon) V. Webkinz cats (all of them)

mini-bracket 3

Tama V. FDC Willard

Stray Cat J V. Pangur

Grumpy Cat V. Miette

Jinx V. Jorts

Gandalf V. Raymond 

Smudge V. The Cat Foretold

Forever’s Brood V. Norman (SolidarityGaming)

Jellie (GoodTimesWithScar) V. BB (Jacksepticeye)

Garfield (Garfield) V. Meowth (Pokémon)

Puss In Boots (Shrek Cinematic Universe) V. Kitty Softpaws (Puss in Boots)

Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess cats V. The Garreg Mach Monastery cats (Fire Emblem: Three Houses)

Purrsula (Dragon Quest Treasures) V. Shiro/Blanche (House 1977)

Slugcat (RainWorld) V. Pussyfoot (Looney Tunes)

Li'l' Mittens (WordGirl) V. Mittens (Wander Over Yonder)

Greebo (Discworld) V. Maurice (Discworld)

You (Discworld) V. The Cat (Infinity Train)

mini-bracket 4

Cat (Ghost Trick) V. Cat (Stray)

Salem (Sabrina the Teenage Witch 1996) V. Binx (Hocus Pocus)

Firestar (Warrior Cats) V. Scourge (Warrior Cats)

Mothwing (Warrior Cats) V. Leafpool (Warrior Cats)

Sprigatito (Pokémon) V. Litten (Pokémon)

Meowstic (Pokémon) V. Shinx (Pokémon)

Jiji (Kiki’s Delivery Service) V. Luna (Sailor Moon)

Artemis (Sailor Moon) V. Diana (Sailor Moon)

Morgana (Persona 5) V. Ravage (Transformers)

Fukumaru (A Man and His Cat) V. Nyanko-Sensei (Natsume Yuujinchou)

The Judge (OFF) V. Mr. Midnight (Fran Bow)

Khoshekh (WTNV) V. Catbus (My Neighbor Totoro)

Grudge (Star Trek: Discovery) V. Spot (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

Lumi (Cats are Liquid) V. 808 (Hi-Fi Rush)

Ser Pounce-A-Lot (Dragon Age) V. Warmseeker (Elder Scrolls Online)

Frumpkin (Critical Role) V. The Admiral (TMA)

polls for mini-bracket 1 will be scheduled to post around 2 pm EST tomorrow! also reminder they will be open for 1 day each!

propaganda is encouraged!! go wild! we will do our best to reblog as much as we can and it will be tagged with "purr-opaganda" (for those who want to filter the tag). we also recommend making propaganda for your cat blorbos sooner rather than later so there's a chance for them to win!!

-mod orange

[strykingback]

I never did understand folks that put Jaune arc on a pedestal.

Why can’t people criticize him? Why can’t we use other characters than Jaune when it comes to ships?

I look at papi and the rest of the folks that don’t want anyone to ship characters because of their rules.

Even after explaining that this AU version of Cardin is being redeemed, heart of gold etc they ignore all of that because “canon” (same folks that ship Jaune with Salem or cinder)

What’s the point of writing a RWBY story if I am restricted to expanding characters that are not Jaune?

Honestly I never did understand the hype: he came to a school unprepared and with no knowledge of aura.

He refused training from Pyrrha despite needed it badly.

Complains about being a damsel when he foolishly never try to better himself.

Was harassing Weiss for a long time (and everyone ignores that one sadly)

“Conveniently” the bully arc fixes everything despite no payout. (Nothing earned truthfully)

This is not someone to look up too, heck I question how the whole harem thing works with him?

Sorry if I am being too harsh on the guy but it bothers me that any criticism to Jaune makes you evil with some fans.

Everything about this whole thing is correct anon, I'm glad you did send this in. Cause you are right about a lot of stuff.

Every character in RWBY is subject to criticism, whether it be how they are written, portrayed, etc. Also lets not forget the fact that even the entireity of RWBY's world-building can be brought unto question as well. Especially how they refuse to expand upon the World of Remnant alone.

As for Jaune, there was so many ways you can fix him as a character and in the end still make him better than his canon-counterpart. Just by doing a few things.

Making his semblance based around the Joan of Arc since that is his historical allusion.

Having him take accountability for cheating to enter Beacon Academy and with Ozpin saying while he is disappointed to know Jaune cheated to get in at the same time he wants to see Jaune grow.

Accepting to be trained by Pyrrha, his team, or anyone else that is willing to help him. Oc's/FC's count as well if you are doing a re-write.

Show why he wanted to be a Huntsman; I.E. To show his family that he can stand on his own two feet or because he wants to be a hero.

Not having him whine over Pyrhha's Death every three episodes in a volume.

Have him actually be awkward around Weiss but also accept that she isnt into him but then having a brain (as he should) and realizing that Pyrrha is into him.

And Most Importantly to better fit his Joan of Arc Allusion.

Having Jaune die as a hero in a rewrite of Volume three, post-beacon, or during the Atlas Arc.

I also do agree that the bully arc should have not fixed all of Jaune's issues as he received help from Pyrrha and should have realized that this was not him but Pyrrha assisting him as despite himself putting up a spirited defense/fight against the Alpha Ursa Grimm. It should have been enough to give him confidence to tell Ozpin about him cheating to get into Beacon and accepting Pyrrhas help to start training.

Once again you are totally fine. You and I also have the same criticisms about a character that we dislike. Which is something that papi does not understand. That any characters in any form of media are not safe from criticism at all.

[howlingday]

CRWBY: Wanna see us scar Jaune *kills Pyrrha*

CRWBY: Wanna see us do it again? *Stabs Weiss*

CRWBY: Wanna see us do it again? *Makes Jaune stab Penny*

CRWBY: Wanna see us do it again? *Isloation Jaune for 20 years and kill most of his new friends*

CRWBY: Wanna see us do it again?

Hang, let me do something... Alright!

TOP TEN WORST THINGS TO EVER HAPPEN TO JAUNE ARC!

Based on Watch Mojo

10. Jaune Arc has his eye ripped out and eaten by Salem. 9. Jessica Cruz comes back only to be revealed to be clone created by Neopolitan, leading to Jaune revealing his secret identity as The Huntsman to his sister Saphron. 8. Jaune learns that Weiss Schnee was impregnated by Cardin Winchester, but when she refused to use her children to kill Jaune, Cardin arranged for her death and raised the children on his own, believing they were abandoned by their father Jaune, who murdered their mother. Ruby Rose knew of the affair, but kept it hidden as a promise to Weiss. 7. Jaune Arc swaps minds and bodies with Arthur Watts, who was dying in a comatose state of Dust-Lung. Arthur's body dies, leaving Jaune's body in the control of Dr. Watts. In that time, Jaune then broke up with Jessica, disbanded Team JNPR, and was brutally violent. 6. Jaune Arc was buried alive by Hazel Rainart, who believed he had killed the young huntsman. He then went on to wear the similar armor to Jaune while Jaune was left paralyzed and in the dirt. By the time he'd left the earth, Hazel had already smeared Jaune Arc's good name. 5. In the RWBY Heroes Manga, we watch as Jaune Arc come into his own from dorky kid to genuine hero. Sadly, he met his untimely death at Tyrian's claw, passing away after defeating his hated foe, but not before he says good-bye to his sister and Weiss. 4. Jaune's sister had suffered a stroke and was in a coma for some time. She later recovered and the two then reconciled in some very sweet moments. However, she then dies again, a landmark event for Jaune only for the death to be... pointless, since she was a paid actress hired by Jacques Schnee while his real sister was imprisoned far and away in his mines. 3. Jaune and Ruby's darkest moment must have been when she had a miscarriage due to complications when she went into labor. However, this turned out to be a ruse by, surprise, surprise, Dr. Merlot, after Ruby was poisoned and led to believe her child died. This, of course, led to another rocky chapter in the marriage of Jaune and Ruby. 2. We come now to the tragedy that started it all. The origin of Jaune Arc's heroic pursuit, time and time again, the death of Terra Cotta Arc at the hands of a thief he hadn't bothered to stop mere days before. Terra had always been a mother figure in Jaune's life ever since his parents' death. Her mantra of "always go forward," words that stick by Jaune to this day as his own huntsman mantra. 1. Jaune Arc's greatest failure. His girlfriend, Pyrrha Nikos, took his place and was abducted to Beacon Tower by Cinder Fall. Jaune Arc had managed to reach to her but was too late to stop the arrow from piercing her heart. This was only made all the more tragic when their friends Ren and Nora were critically injured by Cinder as well, but not before revealing they knew Jaune was The Huntsman. Pyrrha's death spurred Jaune to chased down Cinder Fall, who died when her own fireball caused her to be crushed by the cavern they battled in. The death of the woman he loved hangs heavy on the heart of our hero, The Huntsman.