#sam does a discourse

[lucky-clover-gazette]

nah, there were two victims who have spoken out. anastasia who dream knew was 17 (she tells him she’s “18 soon”) and amanda who dream talked to (and allegedly sexted) before she was 18 because he sent her money for her 18th birthday. dream also himself admitted the instagram dms are real, in which he gave the fan amanda his private snapchat. he admitted to flirting with his underage fans privately. i encourage you to seek out the evidence yourself, rather than just looking at what his fans say (not sure what “twitter search” that proves his innocence you’re referring to. there’s no proof that he is innocent when he literally admitted his guilt himself.) dream stans are biased and obviously spread whatever misinformation they can create to make him look innocent, just like they did with his racism and countless other controversies and drama. but if you really want to believe groomer stans, that’s your decision.

oh yes, because that last sentence totally implies you’re coming from a balanced place of good faith, unlike those demented stans.

the thing is, power dynamics aside, i don’t see a problem with a 20 year old person consensually flirting with a 17 year old. i was 17 after i graduated high school. if i chose to flirt with a 20 year old college student, or accept their advances, it would have been extremely normal.

obviously at any age, it’s never okay to harass people—but i don’t think that’s what was happening in the screenshots that were actually released? you say yourself that the worst and most extreme accusations (sexting) are only alleged. and sexting, just like flirting and romance and even sex itself, is not an activity that becomes morally correct only after people have turned 18. if a 17 year old, who’s a few months away from being 18, consensually sexts her boyfriend who recently turned 20, it’s a fucking joke to suggest some kind of abuse is occurring for the reason of age alone. sexting is a neutral act within itself, which can be a way people are groomed, but also can just be a way teens and young adults interact with each other.

now, regarding the celebrity power dynamics—let it first be perfectly understood that i am not a dream stan. i’m not really a stan of anyone, as internet fan culture around real people has always made me uncomfortable. i have literally no investment or stakes in this discourse, other than giving a shit in principle about online parasocial hate campaigns. most relevantly, i care about the use of potential misinformation that could contribute to the delegitimization of serious substantiated accusations.

which is not to say that these accusations aren’t objectively true—these girls had text conversations with this guy, it clearly happened. and they may feel regret or discomfort with the power imbalance of interacting with an internet celebrity, which is a feeling i understand! the power dynamics here are far more questionable that the age stuff that twitter discourse mongers parade around. but those dynamics also require nuance, which is clearly not the priority in the spaces you (anon) seem to occupy.

personally, i do think it’s cringey and a little slimy to flirtily dm people you know are your fans for a quick ego boost—but it’s not predation or grooming when the fan is 17 and the celeb is 20. if the fan is 13 and the celeb is over 18, it is. most people are able to recognize the difference between those two situations, even if the numbers on paper seem close.

i’m genuinely sorry to hear that these girls had negative experiences with someone they once respected and trusted. if there was primary evidence of nonconsensual harassment, i would simply put this guy out of my mind and keep his name out of my mouth. but i think i can actually be pretty damn certain there is no substantive evidence of harassment or predation, or else you people would already be plastering my inbox with it.

all harm is not equal, and overstating harm and co-opting certain inflammatory language like “groomer” exposes, more than anything else, a vindictive desire to call for mass shaming. which is how i reached the conclusion that, even if some cringe slimy stuff happened, the harshest accusations and subsequent parroting and harassment are very obviously happening because people just already didn’t like the guy.

i do not care if you like dream. i don’t know dream and i don’t particularly like him myself. i only had a little bit of sympathy because 1) i hated the way people dunked on his appearance like it was some kind of moral crusade and 2) i have a mutual who enjoys his celebrity presence.

i’ve held off on answering these asks directly because i think it’s ultimately just giving nonsense more attention than it deserves, but i am also self-righteous and have many thoughts and opinions that i’m always down to express.

and that last sentence especially pissed me off.

[twotales]

Any future that doesn't involve Radek & Rodney together, makes no sense to me.

And I don't mean romantically, ship who you want to ship this is about finding someone who totally gets you. Someone who not only handles your BS, calls you out on it, but can understand and match your level of intelligence.

Someone who can add to it.

I mean, being a genius is an integral part of Rodney's personality, and finding a person who can truly follow along with that brain of his is harder than winning the lottery. (Rodney would even do the math.)

Absolutely no way Rodney's going to let that go, at least not for long. I believe if he did, it would be a noticeable hole in his life, and once he noticed why the hole is there (let's be honest, he may not realize it at first,) he'd be bringing Radek back into his orbit immediately.

He'd pretend it wasn't his idea. But it wouldn't matter.

Radek would know.

[ingravinoveritas]

I’ve just been made aware of the most recent shenanigans involving Rosie Darby (this post sums things up pretty well, for those who don’t know what happened). The basic gist is that someone tagged her on a tweet for a Stede Bonnet version of the “gay loser” meme that’s been going around on Twitter, clearly intending it as a joke...but instead of taking it as such, Rosie took the (very obviously Photoshopped) picture seriously, and reacted thusly:

First of all, I am not sure that pun was intended, because going by her previous clashes with the OFMD fandom, I am beginning to think this woman neither possesses any discernible sense of humor nor actually knows what a pun is. Second--and more importantly--it’s very apparent that Rosie seems to see “gay” as an insult, which is distressing at best and very, very gross at worst, especially given Rhys’ role as Stede and the fact that a large majority of his fans are now members of the LGBTQ+ community.

That Rosie’s initial impulse is to defend Rhys’s sexuality and reaffirm her stance as his wife by attacking a 15-year-old queer OFMD fan is appalling but also incredibly telling, and it makes me feel the need to very specifically mention Georgia Tennant.

As my followers know, I am absolutely more than willing to call Georgia out on her occasional bullshit…but in this instance she is completely and totally the anti-Rosie. She has literally referred to Michael as David’s “other wife”:

...And basically has no problem whatsoever being like “YEP, WE’RE POLY. DAVID AND MICHAEL ARE FUCKING. THAT’S TOTALLY COOL” (albeit in a much more subtle, British kind of way).

There is a stark contrast between Rosie’s not-so-mildly homophobic response to that recent tweet and Georgia’s continuous fanning of the flames of speculation about the relationship between Michael and David. She clearly does not have an issue with people thinking there is something between them, or with people thinking David is anything other than 100% straight.

She has also never felt the need to project her own insecurities by defending David’s masculinity or deliberately distancing him from his characters, particularly characters in which fans have found comfort and a sense of identity.  Georgia has proven to be an (imperfect, but reliable) ally to the LGBTQ+ community, and is able to step outside of herself and see the larger picture.

So even if Georgia’s reasons are sometimes questionable, she understands what Good Omens and David means to the fans, and I will take that over Rosie’s absolute lunacy and homophobic weirdness any day of the week and twice on Sundays...

[farklelucas]

if sam nightingale has millions of fans i am one of them. if sam nightingale has ten fans i am one of them. if sam nightingale has only one fan that is me. if sam nightingale has no fans, that means i am no longer on this earth. if world against the sam nightingale, i am against the world.

[blacknidstang]

Oh class traitor sammy my beloved

[brettdoesdiscourse]

I'm sorry, but there was never a time when Healy was a good or likeable person. He was a bigoted misogynist with a savior complex who controlled and took advantage of women in a worse position than himself. Even with his wife, he went out of his way to find someone who would need him. Who he felt owed him.

[samwinchesterpregnant]

your opinion on top/bottom discourse

well according to the athenian definitions of “erastes” and “eromenos”—

[lenin-it-to-win-it]

SHRIEKING like a chimpanzee because I just saw the hot take “sam and frodo weren’t even friends” 

[eulchu]

Has there ever been a dsmp cc thats like "yeah i owe a lot of my fame to dream, he is amazing and im so thankful"

ya

https://youtube.com/c/GeorgeNotFound

that guy

[maipareshaan]

What unpopular spn fandom discourse would you like to see or create?

[countess-of-edessa]

2024 predictions:

• new musical about Richard Nixon sweeps the nation

• Elizabeth Holmes gets out of prison

• there’s a Beatles movie and girls lust over the four guys playing the Beatles, one of whom is harry styles, who is far and away the worst part of the movie.

• the Sebastian Stan Donald Trump generates initially ironic and increasingly non ironic fan edits and thirst traps for young Trump. There is frenzied discourse around whether or not it’s ethical to find young fictional Trump hot and people worry that teenagers making fan cams of Stan will create a new generation of MAGA fanatics. It a little bit does.

• Leonardo DiCaprio gets married to whatever 24 year old he happens to be dating at the time

• Taylor Swift comes out as heterosexual

• Regime change in France

• Sam Bankman Fried is sentenced to 20+ years and claims to find Christianity in prison

• like Shia laBeouf another celebrity will undergo a public conversion to Catholicism

[tomboy014]

Dun Dun Dunnn!!! Arkham Security Guard Danny's Epic Backstory! with Dick Grayson

I fell in love with the Arkham Guard AU by @xy-is-i and like most projects I work on, rather than starting where the story starts, I end up going backwards and delve into the backstory.  And I mean waaay into the backstory.

Because while the stories might start when the Bats run into Danny and Jazz working at Arkham Asylum isn’t where they first met.

Long, long ago, through shenanigans unknown, Robin and Phantom became friends, and honestly, they both really needed it. 

Dick Grayson, age 16, has been Robin for a while, but this is so early in the day that there just aren’t many teen heroes or sidekicks yet.  He’s basically pioneering the field of child heroes.

For Danny, 14, Sam and Tucker are great, but there are just some parts of superhero-ing that they just don’t get when you don’t have to hide a secret identity. 

Batman, for his part, does not approve of the friendship.  He’s already not a fan of metas in his city, but when the two of them get together, the chaos twin energy between Dick and Danny multiplies.  Worse, it brings about the pun-pocalypse, and there are only so many puns Bruce can take.  And then there’s the sibling discourse…

After all the stories Danny has told about his family, Dick is desperate to have a little sibling of his own, and the two repeatedly gang up on Batman to adopt another kid.  Their acting may be stilted, but the efforts are constant.

It never works.  Bruce doesn’t have empty nest syndrome yet, and tiny, homicidal Dick was already more than he could handle while he was trying to figure out how to adult, but he also can’t stand that he’s disappointing Dick.  Alfred isn’t helping either; he wants more grandkids.

And there’s no way in HELL that he’s adopting Phantom.

But for Robin and Phantom, they finally have someone they can talk to who gets it.  They can vent about their rogues, get help with homework, bitch about balancing their vigilantism with going to school, talk about whatever TV they’ve been watching, anything and everything.  It’s not uncommon to see them hanging off the Gotham gargoyles or grabbing a bite on top of the Nasty Burger.

There’s an unspoken rule between them that neither pries into the other’s personal life or secret identity, but as they get more comfortable with each other, little things slip out.  Then more.  Numbers are swapped, bits and pieces about their families come out. 

Later on, homes and secret hideouts are visited and they know each other’s first names.  It’s not a problem for Dick to go to the Fenton’s, but technically, Danny isn’t allowed in the Bat Cave or the Manor.  Those visits happen behind Batman’s back, and they were almost caught when they hid in the chandelier before Danny remembered he could turn them invisible. (Alfred encourages the friendship and bakes extra cookies once when he finds out Danny is over.) 

And eventually the relationship grows until they’re comfortable enough to swap full names.  No more secrets.

Dick likes going over to Danny’s place since it’s a chance to feel a lot more normal, even if they have to be very careful and either stay in civilian clothes in the shared areas or stay locked in Danny’s room if they’re in uniform.  Danny also goes out of his way to keep Dick from ever meeting his sister, Jazz (Danny knows he has a type).  It doesn’t stop them from swapping their numbers under the door.  (Jazz will unofficially be Dick’s therapist for years after this)

But being this close, Dick can also see just how stressed Danny is trying to maintain this lifestyle.  Doesn’t help either he has to listen to Danny’s parents go on and on about wanting to rip their own son apart, molecule by molecule.  Sure, Danny has a couple friends to help him, but he doesn’t have the same mentor or support system Dick has.  For a kid his age to be anything other than a sidekick is practically unheard of in this day and age.  Superheroes are still fairly few and far between, but Batman helped start a group called the Justice League a couple years ago with the idea that heroes could help each other.  Maybe there’s something there…

So, Dick starts the Teen Titan.  He had originally intended for Danny to join him as one of the founding members, but are you kidding?  Jump City is on the opposite side of the country!  He has school! and parents! (That’s the point, Danny. We’re trying to get you away from the parents that want to dissect you) He can’t just up and leave home and run halfway across the country!

So, Dick found the other iconic members and still joined the Titans, but Danny will always have an open invitation to join them and a room at the Tower, something Danny does occasionally take advantage of.  Jump City doesn’t spawn as many natural portals as Gotham, but he visits whenever he can and basically haunts the tower the entire month of December to get away from his family.

Still, the distance and growing up are hard on Dick and Danny, and they grow more distant over the years, but they’ll always have each other’s backs in an emergency.  Dick was there when Danny thought he was turning into a monster (it was just ghost puberty).  Danny stole the Spectre Speeder so they could scour the Ghost Zone after Jason died.  And Danny would eventually become godfather to Dick’s daughter, Mar’i. 

But things cooled down between them… at least until a panicked Danny called because his sister just took a job at Arkham…

Next>>

[cowgurrrl]

“I want to be great or nothing.”

Summary: When world famous rockstar Joel Miller finds himself in some hot water with the press, his PR team suggests fake dating an up and coming actress to refine his image. However, when they actually start spending time together, the happy couple can’t stand each other. Will they be able to turn it around for the cameras or will it all be for nothing?

Warnings: smut indicated with an asterisk, tlou au, fake dating, enemies to ???, Sarah is alive :D

01. Smile You’re on Camera [1.7k]

02. When The Sun Goes Down [2.6k]

03. BWFW [3.8k]

04. Kiwi [3.8k]

05. A plea for tenderness* [7.3k]

06. Blueberry Pancakes* [4.5k]

07. Losing My Cool [1.1k]

08. Never Thought [3.5k]

09. Layla [2.3k]

10. Pine Point [4.7k]

11. Old Friends Die Hard [3.6k]

12. Too Close [2.5k]

13. The Chain [2.6k]

14. From the Dining Table [4.5k]

15. Wonderfully Bizarre [1.2k]

🎸🎸🎸

Drabbles

A Soulmate Who Wasn’t Meant to Be: You settle into life without Joel

Night Shift: Joel settles into life without you

Tennessee Whiskey: A (somewhat) quiet night as you and Joel adjust to sharing life again

Thank God I Found You: You and Joel talk about going public with your relationship

Gold Dust Woman: Oscars season with Joel

The Actress: Red carpet interviews with Joel

Je te laisserai des mots: You and Joel realize forever doesn’t sound too bad

I Want To Marry You: Joel asks you The Question

Kiss Me Once, and Kiss Me Twice: You and Joel get married

Heavy Metal Drummer: When Joel’s drummer suddenly drops out, who better to fill in than the girl who’s been there since the beginning?

Just A Boy: Joel struggles with your newest cast mate

Small Bump: You tell the girls you’re pregnant

Beautiful Boy: You and Joel find out the gender of your baby

Hayloft: Joel being protective of his family

Choreomania: Sammy tries to figure out if he likes what his dad does

Brooklyn Baby: You and Joel welcome your son

Iris: Sarah and Ellie hold Sam for the first time

Hey Me, Hey Mama: Mother’s Day

Jackie and Wilson: A night in the Miller household

Little Wonders: When Mom Guilt takes over, Joel finds a way to support you

Mama’s Boy: Sam’s going through a phase

Daydream Believer: Daisy seems to know something you don’t

As It Was: You and Joel have an announcement

At Last: Sam doesn’t seem to know the difference between real life and acting

Daylight: An almost perfect Texas day with the Millers

Yo Gotti: You and Joel read thirst tweets together

Beautiful Girls: Your first night at home with your twins

Love You: Joel being the best dad to tiny baby angels

Unknown: You find out Violet has asthma

I’m Still Standing: Actors on Actors: You and Carolina Garcia-Long

My Girls: The first of many Sophia and Violet days

Lucky: The girls are going through a phase

Girls On Film: Joel accidentally starts discourse

I’m Just Ken: A Halloween fashion show with the Millers

Live from New York: You and Joel take on SNL

Please Come Home for Christmas: The Christmas season with the Millers

Bug: The BuzzFeed Puppy Interview

So This Is Love: A Beach Day

Salad Days: The t-shirt coup

The Millers: A Year in The Life: A documentary about your lives

Good Old Days: A SAG-AFTRA Career Retrospective

🎸🎸🎸

Extras 🤠

Joel and sundress season*

Dancing with Joel

Your instagram story 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

ACL with the Millers

Joel’s tattoos

You and Joel find out you’re having a baby

Your reaction to questions about kids

Family headcanons

Random thoughts 1

Random thoughts 2

Honeymoon with Joel

Actress!reader freaking out about Joel on Instagram

Talking about your relationship with Joel

Sammy Insta posts

Family instagram posts

Sophia and Violet

Birthday headcanons

What the kids do later in life

Text threads :D 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

The kids’ instagrams

Grandpa Joel

Grandpa Joel pt. 2

Instagram stories: Barbie edition

Random family thoughts

[burr-ell]

"the tendency of this fandom to only engage with what THEY want these characters to be#as opposed to what their creators are trying to do and the stories they want to tell" slap this on a bumper sticker, you just summed all cr discourse (about PCs at least) in 2 sentences

It truly is maddening (and it's not by any means exclusive to the CR fandom). The reason why the discourse always goes the way it does is that at the end of the day, the loud fanwanky people only see what they would do, if they were self-inserted into the story, as a valid choice; and they are, more broadly, fundamentally disinterested in what others think or feel. There are several examples of this, and the variety of spaces within the fandom that produce these ideas is an indicator that this isn't endemic to one specific group of people.

-Keyleth is an important character whose feelings and choices are validated by the other PCs and cast even if they still disagree with them, in spite of how she and her preachiness get in the way of the Murderhobo Jubilee? It's not because the cast are all friends and they genuinely believe Keyleth is valid and are interested in how these discussions and choices can guide the story. It's because Marisha is the DM's girlfriend, and also here's my totally unbiased theory that my pet favorite players Sam and Travis secretly hate Marisha and Keyleth.

-Vax's presence is still felt and nodded to in the post-canon VM oneshots? It's not because he was an important character who mattered. It's because Liam wants to make everyone talk about his tragedy because he has Main Character Syndrome. Scanlan Wishes for Vax to appear at the wedding? It's not because he cares about Vex or because Sam and Liam wanted a sweet tribute to Vex and Vax's relationship and by extension Liam and Laura's friendship. It's because Liam thinks Vex's life should always revolve around Vax, and Sam wants to enable him and jerk himself off as the one who facilitated it.

-Beauyasha and Fjorester become canon? It's not because the players wanted it and it happened naturally. It's because there was a secret behind-the-scenes push to "force" those ships to become canon instead, and like, Dani Carr is some sort of shipping puppetmaster who made the players do it, and "they" (whomever "they" is) decided to sink Beaujester or Widojest because it was "obviously" going to become canon before the pandemic hiatus gave them time to "make the corporate-approved ships happen".

-Beau and Caleb try to reform the Empire and dismantle the Cerberus Assembly from within? It's not because it makes sense for their stories or that people who would take this position regarding a corrupt government might have a valid perspective that differs from your own. It's because the people at Critical Role Productions LLC are all spineless neoliberal cowards who won't commit to real activism. The best activism, after all, is violent, and violent revolutions have always resulted in stable aftermaths, and the real world has never demonstrated that this mindset is foolish.

-Relatedly: Caleb doesn't kill Trent personally? It's not because the most poetic justice would be to deny Trent the thing he wants most from Caleb. It's because "Limo Brain" is too obsessed with tragedy to have the stones to do "what needs to be done".

-Asmodeus, DnD Satan, turns out to also be CR Satan? It's not because it fits with the cosmology and the lore; it's because Matt Mercer is too attached to the "establishment", and the Prime Deities should have actually turned out to be the bad guys because of my personal baggage about Western religion and Christianity they're a little mean to my blorbo sometimes.

There's a pattern here: fans had expectations that they'd built up for themselves after projecting and building up fanon and deciding what players meant before they explained themselves fully, and when the players strayed from that, they were derided for all manner of reasons. I think we're seeing that same pattern play out in C3 as the story progresses in a way that fans dislike, and in fact we have seen fanwank spread whenever someone does anything that interferes with personally catering to a) the favored ship and/or b) the favored philosophy. (Orym, Ashton, FCG, Percy, Pelor...all valid when they affirm the Fandom Opinions and all disdained when they don't.)

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for comfort stories that deliver a personal catharsis. And I'm not going to dismissively say "well if you want it so bad make your own" because, as an artist, I am very familiar with the fact that creating is hard and draining and sometimes you just need to consume instead. But when you become so wrapped up in yourself and your feelings to the point where your perspective is the only valid one, someone else's feels like a betrayal when it isn't. It's always "They aren't doing what we wanted and here's why they're terrible people because of it" and never "Hmm, why is this what the cast wants? Let's examine that."

This isn't a new phenomenon, but I think it ultimately stems from not assuming that other people can differ from you in major ways in good faith. There are a lot of reasons for that (some more understandable than others), but I think you rob yourself of the potential to enjoy something new when all you do is demand what you already want. No matter what you're doing or where you are in life, you tend to become a better and wiser person when you open your mind to what other people have to say, no matter how mundane the subject matter. Sometimes the stories people have to tell are challenging—and the only healthy way to deal with that is to engage with them on their own terms.

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hey nalyra!

I was hoping you could sort of help put some thoughts in order.

So, what I keep seeing often is the discourse of lestat deserving the murder night vs lestat did not deserve it and that's why paris happens.

On one hand I agree murder night "needed" to happen bc the household had turned too toxic for all of them and something had to give ( and lestat did not seem about to relent on anything tbh ).

And then we have lestat himself saying he would have done the same thing and in a way its his fault things ended up the way they did. ( and we have sam saying lestat needs to be humbled to start a character journey in the next seasons)

On the other hand, there is the argument that paris happened because lestat did not deserve what happened in murder night and murder night was a mistake that claudia and louis paid for with the trial.

I find it hard to agree with the latter (it sounds too punitive and I don't think the trial had anything to do with actual rules it was all armand getting back at lestat and getting louis to himself) but as a lestat fan it was hard to watch murder night and say lestat deserved it as well!!

What are your thoughts on this whole mess? 🤔 😅

Okay, so... I personally think it is not that clear cut.

Because there are a lot of things involved in all of this.

For one - I keep saying - the abuse itself is in the book, so Louis did experience it as abuse, at least at times.

Now, Jacob has said that Louis "presents Lestat as a monster", because he is hurt by what happened. So Louis exaggerates (at the very least a little bit) - for reasons.

However, a tale is also always built on truth.

The Lestat in the book was very young still, and had a temper (well, he does not lose that, lol). Louis remarks on not saying something because he feared Lestat would destroy the parlor in a rage. They fight. And so on. Canon. The Lestat in the show is older, and jaded through loneliness - I personally think that is a great way to introduce the more bitter parts of the relationship, because it lends towards possessiveness and a certain remoteness, because he just sees it very, very differently to Louis, and sometimes cannot really empathize with Louis' actual problems. (Sam notes on that in the podcast, too.)

Now. When Lestat says in TVL that Claudia attacking him was "something he might have done himself"... then that refers to him trapping her in a too small, too fragile, too weak body - for eternity.

He knows he should not have made her. He is aware of that. That is what he refers to there:

From TVL:

But what had I done to Claudia? And when would I have to pay for that? How long was she content to be the mystery that bound Louis and me so tightly together, the muse of our moonlit hours, the one object of devotion common to us both? Was it inevitable that she who would never have a woman's form would strike out at the demon father who condemned her to the body of a little china doll? [...] And on a warm sultry night in the spring of the year 1860, she rose up to settle the score. She enticed me, she trapped me, and she plunged a knife over and over again into my drugged and poisoned body, until almost every drop of the vampiric blood gushed out of me before my wounds had the precious few seconds in which to heal. I don't blame her. It was the sort of thing I might have done myself. And those delirious moments will never be forgotten by me, never consigned to some unexplored compartment of the mind. It was her cunning and her will that laid me low as surely as the blade that slashed my throat and divided my heart. I will think on those moments every night for as long as I go on, and of the chasm that opened under me, the plunge into mortal death that was nearly mine. Claudia gave me that.

From Merrick:

Cover her face; mine eyes dazzle; she died young. I winced at the recollection. Lestat had been condemning himself when he'd spoken those words to her, he'd been offering himself up to her rage. She'd known it.

And here is the crux of it all: "murder night" does need to happen in the grand scheme of things in order to bring both Louis and Lestat onto their journey... they both need to get a reality check, both need to be hauled low so to speak to be able to ultimately heal and the justification is what was done to Claudia (not Louis). And to find peace with themselves.

However, and here is the "problem", if you will - this crime against nature, against Claudia was not only done by Lestat. And that is what her diary entry from "Merrick" is about, and what I believe we already saw hints for in the trial scene when she turns to Louis... Claudia blamed both. "It was never about me." And we saw that already in the show when Claudia argues with Louis before leaving in episode 5, too.

She decided to go and try to kill Lestat, because she thought she could handle Louis more easily.

From Merrick:

To do away with Louis would be foolish, as he is without question the more malleable of the pair. [...] Louis will do as I wish, even unto the very destruction of Lestat, which I plan in every detail. Whereas Lestat would never cooperate with my designs upon Louis. So there my loyalty lies, under the guise of love even in my own heart.

Now, don't get me wrong, I concur with Bailey and Delainey in that Claudia is very justified in her rage, imho :) And... both Lestat and Louis feel the same way, they carry the guilt of what they did to her until the very end.

Now, Paris.

Paris... did happen because Louis and (mostly) Claudia factoring things in) did make a mistake.

They thought (mostly Claudia, and the show hints at that in that episode 6 sex scene when she says to Louis that they "cannot be all like him") that Lestat was the worst.

Like the big bad vampire™, the worst of the worst™, and him (certainly) making mistakes or having a temper or even physically fighting with Louis was the absolute worst that could possibly happen to them.

And that... is the (big, fatal) mistake that is being made.

The show gave us Lestat already brushing Paris off, so I believe show Louis will be a bit more... careful when they get there. A bit more reluctant. Nonetheless, neither Claudia nor Louis are prepared for the old world covens. Or their rules.

Lestat kept them mostly human, a family, because Marius had advised him to do so.

Claudia and Louis, despite their run-ins with the revenants, have no concept of the rules, the viciousness, nor the strength to defend themselves.

They kill off their only protection (so to speak) - and will pay for it.

I believe in one of the interviews it was called "out of the frying pan and into the fire", and that is, unfortunately, very fitting.

That is why "murder night" was a mistake... in Claudia's calculation.

Louis will come to the realization that he "hated Lestat for the wrong reasons" in the second half of IWTV. He will come to a lot of realizations, painful realizations, unfortunately.

Ultimately, it boils down to this, I think (very simplified):

No, Lestat (probably) did not deserve "murder night" for what Louis tries to argue for in s1. Because those reasons will turn out to be the wrong reasons, unfortunately, and likely for a variety of reasons (cue "tinkering" and "suppressed memories")

Yes, Lestat (probably) deserved "murder night" for not heeding Marius' warning. For not trying hard enough, too, maybe. For condemning someone that young. For trapping Claudia (and, by extension Louis) like that.

"I should have listened to Marius's warning. I should have stopped for one moment to reflect on it as I stood on the edge of that grand and intoxicating experiment: to make a vampire of "the least of these. " I should have taken a deep breath."

But he did not.

And the tragedy unfolds.

[dotthings]

A "brothers in arms" dynamic does not preclude romance. Anyone who has read any books, watched any tv shows, or seen any movies ever in their lives should know this, and therefore the entire "brothers in arms" discourse used to shutdown romantic destiel is full on wrong.

Also...romance between two characters who have a brothers-in-arms deep love for each other is not incestuous.

And the word "platonic" needs to be confiscated from 90% of spn standom.

The fact that the discourse from spn standom is so warped that for years people got trapped into having to say "platonic siblings" due to the muck of bad takes put out there by the w*ncest lane (it's like saying "wet water"), while simultaneously having to wade through the muck of the gaslighting against the possibility of romantic feeling between two characters like Dean and Cas, fellow soldiers who became very very close. And some in the w*ncest lane ongoing insistence that in canon Sam and Dean are erotically suggestive and that w*ncest is canon and that the show creatives put w*ncest suggestivenes in on purpose just for the w*ncest shippers to enjoy. Yes the w*ncesties have claimed it's canon. Yes they have claimed there is purposeful "queer coding" on w*ncest. While they gaslight any intention whatsoever about destiel. And lie about what they themselves have said and claimed.

No, w*ncest is not representation, no w*ncest is not "queer," it's incestuous. I understand there are queer fans who ship w*ncest, and that's their right, no I do not condone harassing and hating on people for shipping a dark ship. But I'm also not going to condone pretending it's acceptable to equate an incest ship to a queer romance. You do not get to equate a headcanon incest ship to a queer ship that was deliberately queer coded, between "brothers in arms" fellow soldiers kindred spirits.