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badgalsasuke · 5 months ago

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My thoughts on the Naruto ending

So I had said I was gonna post about my feelings and thoughts regarding the Naruto finale that might contain a few hot takes for some people, so here it is.

THIS IS GONNA BE A LONG POST.

The Naruto ending is universally disliked, there's not doubt in that. Veteran SNS shippers don't like it because Naruto and Sasuke end up with women they don't love and aren't attracted to, and believe Naruto and Sasuke could've end up "single" with no ships confirmed; younger SNS shippers that weren't there when Naruto was still coming out believe they should've ended up together even though that could have not been plausible due to the manga industry quite conservative practices. Het!shippers on the other hand, believe the ending is bad for two different reasons: the first being that some believe that Narusaku and Sasukarin would've made more sense than SS and NH (some say just Narusaku and Sasuke should've stayed single); the second being that although they like SS and NH and the potential they believe these ships have "but wasn't explored further", Kishimoto can't write romance so he messed up both ships, making them bland and barely romantic.

Another reason why the ending is disliked for non-shipping reasons and mostly by Sasuke stans, is that even though in the couple chapters before the 700th one Naruto and Sasuke talk about changing the shinobi system, we see in Boruto that the system has not been changed at all and instead Naruto and Sasuke are reinforcing it despite all the oppression and suffering they were put through it in its name. We even see Itachi, the man who committed genocide being lauded as a hero for his actions and zero reflection on Konoha as a genocidal State. Oh and the Hyuga clan still practices slavery.

So here I come to say the following: Naruto's ending makes sense.

Now before y'all tear me to pieces let me explain myself. The first time I read the finale I thought it was stupid, one reason being that the ships make no sense no matter the angle you try to look at them and the other reason being that Sasuke was now working for the same State that murdered his clan with Naruto now as the head of that same State and making no changes to the Shinobi system (not a very good look on him, right?), so I thought for many years that the ending sucked.

Then The Last, Boruto and Sasuke Retsuden came out and all I could think was "woah this is all really shit from the butt".

But then one day when I was thinking about the manga as a whole, mostly because I was starting to realize that Kishimoto was being intentional in his writing of Naruto and Sasuke's romantic bond and it wasn't accidental like most of the fandom thinks, I just started connecting dots and trying to make sense of the whole story and seeing how the ending fitted into that. I'm someone that whenever it comes to literary analysis and criticism always tries to think about what was the author intention before I label something as bad because it wasn't my personal preference how something was written.

And that's how I realized what there was theme to the Naruto ending is. It's all about conformity.

Now, don't get me wrong the Naruto ending still has flaws, two big ones in my opinion, which I'll point out further down the post, but what I want to do is show you the forest because I feel the fandom is mostly focused on a couple of trees when it comes to the finale. I want you to see the thread of events Kishimoto created and how he was trying to keep it as in character as possible.

So first things first. If you've read Kishimoto interviews over the years then you would know what was the ending he had envisioned: chapter 698. He talks about how he wanted Naruto and Sasuke to have their final fight, make ammends and change the shinobi system together. He achieved two out those three things he intended.

In a quite controversial interview that most of the fandom likes to ignore, Kishimoto stated that he had no emotional attachement to Naruto and Hinata as a couple and it was Studio Pierrot who had pitched the whole thing about The Last movie. He also states that he decided to make NH endgame after Shippuden had started and he had also considered Narusaku as well, but then in another interview that came later he started saying he had intended to make NH canon since the very beginning. He was constantly contradicting himself in these interviews over the years. Kishimoto has also expressed his distate for SS and Sakura's character in general in different interviews.

So what I personally believe is that Kishimoto's editorial, Shueisha, made him change his statements because saying he had no plans for NH and it was Studio Pierrot idea was quite damaging to the franchise (no wonder the interview got kinda buried too, lol).

I think the biggest challenge for Kishimoto was giving the editorial, the studio and most of the fandom the het!ships they wanted without compromising as much the characters the story of his manga revolves around, Naruto and Sasuke.

So we get to ch. 699 where I believe Kishimoto is laying the ground for the finale we ended up getting.

In ch. 698 it seemed like Naruto and Sasuke had been able to resolve their issues and been able to talk about their feelings for each other. Something Sasuke repeats in ch. 699, a chapter entirely narrated by him. However right at the end of ch. 699 we get what seems to be a regression of what we had seen in the previous chapter.

It is implied that Naruto and Sasuke had an argument off-screen hence why Sasuke thought Naruto would not come to see him and bid him farewell before his atonement journey. What was the argument about is never really explained, some fans speculate Naruto was upset about Sasuke going on an atonement journey considering Naruto had pleaded for Sasuke to not be imprisoned and saw no reason for Sasuke to go on a redemption trip. I personally believe it had something to do with Naruto failing to come to terms with his feelings for Sasuke because, as we see right away, Naruto gives Sasuke back his headband and Sasuke says he'll keep it until they have their real fight which is interesting, to say the least, because didn't we just see their real fight the literal prior chapter? basically, we're being told Naruto and Sasuke haven't been able to truly talk about their feelings and put into words what their relationship really is about hence why Sasuke keeps the headband. As long as Sasuke has the headband, it will mean Naruto hasn't been able to truly accept what he feels for Sasuke. In essence, ch. 699 is Kishimoto retconning ch. 698 to give way to what comes later.

After chapter 700 came out we started getting so much content, both filler and canon, that tries to explain how we got there. Let's start with The Last, the movie that tries to explain how the heck Naruto ended up with Hinata.

The Last is sort of a hybrid, it's written for the most part by Studio Pierrot employees who had the idea in the first place and Kishimoto corrected a few things here and there and is also what for me, makes the ending flawed for one big reason: Naruto's character assassination.

Naruto is a shonen manga that's more focused and concerned on it's emotional battles and communicates it to the audience through it's physical battles rather than the powerscaling stuff Naruto dudebros would have you thinking the manga is actually about. So this means that Naruto, its main character, spends the entire manga learning about his feelings and putting them into words. That's what his story is mainly about; learning to love and to be loved.

The Last undoes this in the stupidest way possible. To give Naruto an excuse on why he always ignored Hinata they intend to make the audience believe it's because "Naruto doesn't know what love is" by writing Naruto not being able to differentiate between loving someone and liking ramen. This is absolute nuts. We know that Naruto understands what is love, what is not love and that love doesn't come out of nowhere, we see that when Sakura fake confesses to Naruto, he's able to spot right away she's not being genuine because he understands those three things. So this is the first flaw of the Naruto ending for me.

The second flaw is the dismissal of Kurama and Naruto's status as a Jinchuuriki. I find the most embarrasing thing about The Last to be that they had to put Naruto through a genjutsu so he could hallucinate "memories of Hinata being there for him but he was too dumb to notice" but it's even worse once you remember that Naruto canonically should not be able to be put through a genjutsu in the first place. Studio Pierrot had to break rules of Kishimoto's universe in order to give NH some mediocre development and to me this will always be the worst part of the finale. If you can't make a ship work within the universe rules, then why make it a thing at all?

Some people didn't like that Hinata is totally useless in the movie, but for me this is not a flaw, as it is entirely in character with who she is in the manga. Making her a mary sue out of nowhere on the other hand, would be a flaw of the story.

Now that I've talked about what I think are the flaws of the Naruto ending, let's talk about the things that work in The Last (and I believe is where Kishimoto put his input) to make the finale make sense. The first one being that Sakura is the one that pushes Naruto to be with Hinata. In the manga we see several times Sakura is insecure about Naruto and Sasuke's bond and being jealous of Naruto's spot in Sasuke's heart. Even Hinata is baffled by Sakura wanting to help her and asks her why she's doing all that because she knows they're not friends. We then see Sakura think about Sasuke (who's also conviniently excluded from the movie) and simply say "we, girls, should support each other", she wants Naruto out of the picture so she can have Sasuke for herself and she succeeded. It's also important to note that once Sakura got what she wanted she no longer pretended to be a friend of Hinata, she didn't even kept close contact with Naruto either as we see in Naruto Gaiden, Sarada and Naruto don't know each other like that at all, if Sakura was being a genuine friend to Hinata and Naruto, she would've kept her family close to Naruto's but she didn't.

One more thing that I find works about The Last is that Naruto doesn't passionately fall in love with Hinata, but instead is constantly guilt-tripped into liking her, which is more true to his character. You have a man already struggling to accept his sexuality, who also has his deceased mother's expectation of marrying a girl and on top of that is a pathological people pleaser, of course he's gonna marry the first girl that tells him she loves him. It makes sense this all happened while Sasuke was not in the village. Naruto panicked about his sexual identity and rushed to marry an "acceptable woman" in the eyes of the people whose approval he craves, as we see in the special chapter Kishimoto wrote that came out after The Last: the villagers fawning over Konoha's hero dating the Hyuga heiress.

Likewise, Sasuke not attending Naruto's wedding helps the ending not be as contrived or out of character of them. Kishimoto never wrote anything on why Sasuke skipped the wedding as far as I can recall, but in the episodes that Studio Pierrot made dedicated to Naruto's wedding we see a Sasuke completely absent and detached from the event, something Naruto dudebros use to dunk on him because that made him a terrible friend from their perspective, but as usual they're not paying attention to the full narrative Kishimoto is creating here.

Making Sasuke be happy for Naruto and attend his wedding and give him a gift and all that crap, would've made het!shippers and Naruto dudebros happy but it would be at the expense of his character and the story Kishimoto was writing. Remember, Sasuke had kept the headband all these time until he could have his real fight with Naruto, meaning he was waiting for Naruto to be honest about his feelings for him, so him not attending Naruto's wedding is a way to communicate to the audience (at least the part that's paying attention) that Sasuke is heartbroken by the news.

I believe this is why Kishimoto designed adult Sasuke the way he did and makes him dress the way he does as an adult. All black and depressing. I also believe that Sasuke will stop dressing that way the minute he and Naruto have their real fight, if they ever have it, that is.

Additionally, Kishimoto nailed making NH canon before SS would be canon. Naruto, as I stated before, is the one that struggles with his identity and feelings for Sasuke and the one that has the expectations to marry a woman so it makes sense that he would be the one to marry a woman first. SS becoming canon first wouldn't make sense because not only is Sasuke more outspoken about his contempt for Sakura, whereas Naruto remains polite and neutral to Hinata's feelings, but Sasuke also has no reason to be with Sakura if Naruto is still available, in fact, Kishimoto making Sakura be the one to chase Sasuke after Naruto's wedding because Sasuke never came back, as we see it stated in Naruto Gaiden ch. 10, is also in character for both Sasuke and Sakura, instead of writing it the other way around like SS shippers wished, y'know their whole thing about Sasuke coming back to the village for Sakura and apologizing to her because he didn't realize how much he actually loved her because he was trapped in the darkness blah blah blah (I think this is what happens in filler novel Sasuke shinden lol).

If Naruto is not available, then Sasuke is in a very emotionally vulnerable position and Sakura took advantage of that. You see the narrative Kishimoto is creating here? There's a thread to follow on why stuff happened they way it did.

Now, I mentioned before that the theme of the Naruto finale was conformity. Here's where I explain how:

The first thing is Naruto's physical appearance. Kishimoto liked to draw a young Naruto all punk and grunge. He even had already made a design of adult Naruto where Naruto looks, well, cool and HOT.

Yet, for the actual finale he gave us an ugly Naruto, but also a Naruto that looks tired and exhausted. How does this tie with the conformity theme? when Naruto was young he used to go against the rules, defy expectations people had of him, tell authorities to fuck off. Like, when he was told to give up on Sasuke when he was 12, Naruto responded "If giving up on Sasuke makes me wise, I'd rather be fool my entire life", this man was a rebel. But as an adult we see him become the head of State that continues to reproduce the status quo that had once oppressed him. Naruto turned apathetic, his appearance reflects his attitude.

And this is consistent with the narrative Kishimoto's been crafting. Just in the same way Naruto conformed to society's expectation when he married a woman he doesn't love and barely knows, he also conformed and succumbed to the shinobi world status quo. It would *make zero sense* for Naruto to revolutionize the shinobi world while married to princess slaver Hinata Hyuga, that'd be an oxymoron, completely contradictory narrative wise. Certainly, Naruto always struggled to find an ideology, to put it in some way, when it came to Konoha and its ninjas practices and had a messed up perception of its villagers (see: the whole Dark Naruto mini plot) but he still wanted to change the shinobi world WITH SASUKE by his side, once the story established they don't end up together and Sasuke isn't by his side, Naruto doesn't care anymore.

This is why I don't find strange that Kishimoto wrote Naruto oversleeping in the eve of his name day as Hokage, a day Naruto had once dreamt about when he was a child. The spark is gone.

But the spark isn't just gone for Naruto, it's also gone for Kishimoto. Naruto didn't even attend his name day because he was knocked out by Himawari. This is Kishimoto being petty. He spent 15 years writing a story where the goal was to see Naruto become Hokage and he knew how anticipated this moment was and he still went and ruined it for the fans anyway. Naruto dudebros were furious about this, but not once did they stop to wonder about the implications of this, what it said about Kishimoto's relationship with his work if it had gotten to the point he went and "fucked it up".

Naruto cared about the state of the world before he became indifferent to it. This is why when Sasuke stans complain about Naruto not actually caring about Sasuke's trauma but can never really explain why Naruto is like that as an adult. They try to pretend Naruto never cared but this is a lie, kid and teenage Naruto was compassionate to Sasuke's trauma and pain even if he didn't always managed it in the best way possible. So, I always feel like they're missing this particular piece of the puzzle: if Naruto can't be his true self then he cannot change the world and neither can Sasuke.

Because the same thing occurs to Sasuke. One blog once posted that Sasuke not caring about his child is out of character, but Sasuke not caring about Sakura's child is very much in character and I feel that sums up Kishimoto's writing of both adult Sasuke and Naruto. This passiveness you wouldn't imagine from their younger selves, takes a hold of them once they become adults and gradually "get in line" to be a part of the real world. Sasuke doesn't care about his child because he had her with a woman he doesn't even like or respect. Sasuke is stuck in time still holding onto that headband, hoping he and Naruto will one day have their real battle.

Sasuke uses the forehead poke, a gesture he always hated, on his wife and child because he, just like his brother to him, wants to distance himself from them. Sasuke now serves the same village that plotted the mass murder of his clan and family because why not? his brother is lauded as a hero for killing his entire clan after all. Sasuke too, has conformed.

I actually wonder if this is in some way linked to modern Japanese culture. Japanese culture and society are deeply conformist with everybody is always trying to fulfill roles imposed in them, always trying to achieve what is expected of them. It could also be about how adulthood sucks the passion and hopes out of the youth (Kishimoto started writing Naruto when he was 24 and finished when he was in his forties). And of course, the closeting of queer people leading miserable lives as pretenders.

If Sasuke is meant to end up with Sakura and Naruto is meant to end up with Hinata then Kishimoto cannot make them happy marriages and give them happy families, he also cannot keep Naruto and Sasuke as revolutionary outcasts that stand up against the status quo, that fanservice would be out of character and out of theme.

This is what I mean when I say the ending makes sense, once you see the finale is all about conformity the thread of events becomes understandable and more heartbreaking too. You don't have to like it, but I do think we have to understand where is Kishimoto coming from when he wrote it the way he did.

The Naruto fandom wanted black and grey from Kishimoto and that's exactly what Kishimoto gave them, black and grey.

EDIT: I've written more on how the conformity theme starts to become present in the series as far back as in Neji's death, check it out HERE

#my thoughts on this fuckass ending #narusasu #sasunaru #anti sasusaku #anti naruhina #anti naruto ending #I guess #sns meta

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snuggles-and-struggles · 2 months ago

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OK ok ok. Ok. Testing the waters a little. N making a sorta general hc post of spicy things. Abt Them.

Very very general, it definitely varies from AU to AU, idea to idea, but typically, I perceive both Edge and Stretch as switches. When they're together, Stretch tends to sub more, whether on bottom or top, but that largely just has to do with Edge having more energy/less chronic pain than Stretch (usually).

I've talked extensively (I think) abt Edge's aspec struggles w/ romance but this also extends to sexuality, as I typically hc him have very little to no drive of his own prior to being in a relationship. Veeerrry demi, but once he feels comfortable enough with a partner to explore, he really enjoys it. He really. Enjoys it. It's a physical extension of his love and he just...adores being able to share that closeness with his partner.

Conversely, I usually see Stretch as having much more casual views on sex. Like, I don't think he’s really slept around a lot, but if he’s been in a few relationships before, he probably wasn't very prudish or slow to get into bed with them.

Going off my most standard ideas of them post deciding to date, it usually takes...a while. Before Edge is comfortable with even trying to explore intimate things of that nature. This also depends a little on how long they've been friends/how close they are prior to intiatkng a romantic relationship, but basically, there are like. Stages, that have to be worked through.

The general trust issues. The touch aversion. The more specific trust issues. All the while slowly building up and working on communication skills, breaking down the Tale/Fell communication barrier. And then once the touch aversion has dwindled, at least with Stretch, and he gets a grip of his anxiety, he actually adapts very quickly to shows of affection (in private). Hugging, cuddling, making out – he’s very, incredibly touch starved. And affection starved.

After the initial hurdle of trust issues is overcome, god, Stretch just makes him feel so safe, and it doesn't take long for him to become a total cuddle fiend.

Buuut then new issues crop up. Since he’s never really experienced much in the ways of sexual attraction before, he’s very uncertain, and in some ways insecure about it all. He’s scared of disappointing Stretch, he’s scared of putting himself in such an entirely vulnerable position, he’s scared he won't enjoy it and that Stretch will leave him if he finds out he'll never be okay with it.

He’s seen...a lot. I don't want to get into the nitty gritty, but being in the Guard meant attending to all sorts of crimes back underground. And while he knows Stretch would never hurt him like that, it leaves this stubborn, aching panic in his chest.

It's also, in some ways, sort of like...the final step. Once you cross that threshold, your relationship is about as sealed as can be. It's practically on par to baring his soul to him to Edge. How things play out could make or break their relationship, and Stretch just...doesn't understand that.

And really...he doesn't. But he doesn't need to. All he knows is that it's a big deal for Edge. And that's all he needs. They've definitely talked about it a lot, as they've both been learning to do together, and Stretch has told Edge again and again to take all the time he needs. Because by that point I'm sure he knows he’s in deep. And he'd mean it, too.

Yeah, he likes having sex, but being with Edge is preferable. Even if Edge realizes he doesn't ever want that. But at the same time, he knows it's not that Edge isn't willing to try, and that he isn't even fully sure about his feelings on the matter, like he was with affection and kissing at first, and Stretch...does hope. That Edge would like it. If for no other reason than he wants to make Edge feel good.

Got off track damn what is UP w/ me im so bad at making general notes abt things. Anyway.

After they cross that threshold and Edge is like whoa wait this is awesome, well, there's still a lot of stress and anxiety in the beginning as he gets more used to it, but once he is. Regardless of who's "in charge" of the session, what role he's playing, even during casual romps, Edge is deeply emotionally invested.

I like to hc that emotions can actually play a very significant role in sex for monsters, bc of my own ideas on "Intent" and like, idk, "soul resonance" or smth. Not that they can't have good and entirely emotionally uninvested sex (or bad sex regardless of love lol), but intent can serve to really heighten the intensity of the whole ordeal.

That being said, with as much as they do love each other, I think it genuinely blows Stretch socks clean off the first time they really get into it, just because of the sheer amount of love and trust Edge would bleed into the act.

And Stretch has never really been shy about expressing his affections for Edge, so he'd do his best to meet that, really emphasize through his words and intent just how much he loves Edge, and how much he wants to take care of him, which would just...really take Edge apart when he’s already brought his walls down so far. They're not even there at this point, really, and it'd just...hit him really hard.

And of course as Edge grows more comfortable, they can also get more playful and silly w/ it. I also love to hc Stretch is surprisingly kinky, so he gets to have looots of fun introducing Edge to all sorts of things. Edge isn't quite so kinky, but he usually had a good time learning all the same.

On a much sillier note to wrap this up, I love to hc that, even after getting much more accustomed to regular/frequent sex, Edge still just...doesn't have a mind for it. Stretch can and will try anything under the sun to subtly turn him on and it just. Goes right over his head.

He comes up from his lab taking his shirt off bc it's summer and he’s complaining abt how hot it is down there, Edge'll just frown and worriedly ask if he wants him to turn up the ac. He tries seductively eating an ice pop in front of him and Edge just notices him being unusually messy like '...?' And gets him a damp washcloth or paper towel to wipe up after while lightly scolding him. He sits in an incredibly provocative position and Edge just looks at how uncomfortable he looks like 'do you...want me to reposition the pillows or–'

And at first Stretch 100% thought he was fucking with him. He is not. Maybe once in a blue moon he is. But not usually. Simply does not even occur to him, rip Stretch fr ✌️😔

#imagine having a partner that hot who is immune to flirting. literal torture #on the plus side it also works to be completely hilarious when strangers very openly flirt with edge and he still has nooo clue lmao #I started zoning out about 1/3 of the way into this but I Will come back and look for typos. eventually.#feel insane posting smth like this here but it is what it is I guess #I honestly have a LOT of suggestive (and more) stuff drafted of them but it's so so scary posting things like this publicly #idk. anyway #spicyhoney #papship #papcest #sns thoughts...#I'll make a tag for this sort of thing specifically for blacklist purposes #sns sugar n spice #good enough

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