#dc thoughts

[covertblizzard]

i never expected to develop a pet peeve of seeing batman hating the teen titans from the beginning (and only begrudgingly accepting it later if at all) in the modern comics but it is my new beloathed at the moment...

where is this even from and who started it because batman is soooo supportive of the teen titans in the original (in fact needing parental/guardian consent is a very early plot point) and has teams up with them the most asking them for help and it's actually only aquaman who shows disapproval towards the end and i hate how they're retroactively souring the bruce-dick relationship like this is NOT what it was :(((

[the-brash-spud]

It just hit me that Clark, as a farm boy, definitely knew how and did drive a quite large number of different vehicles at a very young age.

Imagine witnessing Superman backing up a truck with trailor like he is a professional truck driver with 29 years experience, but in reality, his dad was doing that large landscaping pond project once and needed hands so naturally a 5 year old Clark got himself a promotion on the farm

[babyyoda234]

Gotham is an environmental NIGHTMARE⚠️

This may be a really niche topic, but my degree is currently in Environmental science, so this is on my mind constantly.

Think about it:

The Joker is constantly messing with the air quality with his "laughing gas".

Poison Ivy's pheromones are definitely going to end up in the water supply.

Killer Croc lives in the sewers? Imagine having to deal with a sewer emergency and your boss goes "Dammit Waylon. Again?"

He's not even the only person who lives in the sewers canonically.

Bruce Wayne is constantly flying private. Don't even get me started on Batman and the Justice Leagues carbon emissions...

The Joker is constantly crashing planes/ cars into Gotham Harbor. You know that water is polluted beyond repair. Imagine having Aquaman step in because all the fish are in Gotham are dying...

Not to mention, Batman's rogues are constantly poisoning that water supply.

The Rogues' are also poisoning themselves by working out of old abandoned buildings that are riddled with asbestos....

On the topic of my girl Poison Ivy...

Can you imagine having this woman in class? Freshman year she teaches the hardest intro level botany course offered. You spend every week going to her office hours hoping to pass her class, then a decade later she is bullying you for not remembering the exact equation for photosynthesis while you clean up the mess SHE MADE. The drama.

Might write a fan fic about this in the next couple months. Comment if you would be interested!

[laufire]

robin (1993) #25

connor hawke, a real one: she's got as much right as you or I to be there, which is NONE, because we're doing VIGILANTISM, which is ILLEGAL, which means we also have NO authority to stop anyone from doing it, so quit being a killjoy and maybe repeat this speech to batman word for word when you see him?

[melloollem]

Jason would never say what he felt out loud and neither would Bruce and they always hurt each other because between half-words Jason saw the worst in Bruce and Bruce saw a lot of his faults in Jason.

＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿

I created this paragraph for a fanfic, but I think it's so good that it deserves its own post on my profile.

[karnival2]

thinking about how batman is defined by grief. thinking about how nightwing and batman are both grieving children, but nightwing grew. nightwing hasnt escaped the grief but he has a life outside of it. batman... doesn't. he never does. he isn't allowed to.

[viktheviking1]

I am convinced that actor Robert Pattinson is trying (and succeeding) to act in every major fandom

[raifuujin]

“I just don't like Gosho's use of ideas nowadays” do you have some examples? I’ve been feeling the same but I still don’t have like articulate thoughts on it

Well, 'nowadays' has been for. About ten years, ish? The most glaring example that always sticks out in my mind is the Sun Halo MK chapters, with the complete and utter waste of the very common fanfic tropes of 'Aoko gets suspicions' and 'Kid gets injured around someone'. But it kind of matches the general problem I have with his writing that I don't think used to be this bad: He's trying to stuff too much around the strict case-by-case structure (or for MK, introducing the heist-by-heist structure) without actually giving anything focus. (And for MK it's so much worse because he writes it so rarely, that he makes everyone cameo every time but they tend to just get hand waves to whatever drama plot gets instigated by Kid having his next heist.)

For DC, it's the whole. 1) Overarching plot with the BO and suspects and 'here's the available suspects for who's involved with the BO that we introduce one at a time at the end of cases and then maybe leave more clues about them during future cases'. 2) Dangling character or relationship progress and then constantly pulling it away, usually as a joke. 3) When we do occasionally get some of the major plot, it's all at once and then maybe mentioned once in the next case, but otherwise completely dropped. (Amuro and Akai and Kudo tea party tease also lingers as a 'Gosho is just evil at this point'.) Basically rigid structure that doesn't allow for much of the subplots aside from breadcrumbs.

For the current situation, it's also tied into interview comments. Which. have no bearing on the story until he actually uses them. But instead of even that, the movie gets exciting stuff instead and puts it in a giant limbo of is it meant to be canon or not, because no one has been able to settle on that for any movie, even as some details get connected back to the manga more and more.

It's bad writing. Gosho has been a bad writer for a long time, and it's kinda just getting worse. It's my opinion that it's because he tries to have his case after case after case (because mystery manga), and then stuff little bits of everything else in the seams, whether it works well with the case he's writing or if it's a good delivery or (more usually) it's just. Kinda tacked on.

It's partially because of time investment, partially because I have low standards of entertainment, and partially because I want to see how it all ends that I stick with DC. MK is. Similar, but hurts more because I really hate how it morphed into the DC structure when old MK had more you could do with it. Gosho will never drop his rigid case-by-case structure at this point, but it really would be better if he did at this point. Things need development that they're not allowed to have. Or at least smooth out the lines between his hints. And stop with Heiji and Kazuha, just. God. Stop. Is this how people felt about Kid appearances? I feel like at least when people were mad about Kid, they knew nothing was going to happen from the get go, the romance 'tease' is just painful.

[yuan-is-not-here]

hai guys today i fucking learned that red hood protecting “the women and the children of crime alley” is fanon??? like i ohysically cannot sit my ass down and read comics becaus ei just. cannot ve that committed bro. LIKE I CANT EXPLAIN IT BUT i think i prefer fanon more omg AND AND AND TIM DOESNT EVEN DRINK COFFEE???? look ay the way that little white boy is drawn you know he knows the baristas in starbucks PERSONALLY.

[thefaeriefeatherdark]

I do love how Jon Kent is one of those things which utterly fucks over the DC timeline.

Like. Jon cannot have been born before Reign of the Supermen without making some major retcons to Death and to Lois's deal throughout that story.

Jon Kent was 10 before any time warping shenanigans got involved.

Kon El was Superman/Superboy at the time of Reign (meaning he appeared at this time).

Kon El has to have been around for at least ten years.

Unless we make major edits to the timeline Kon and YJ all have to have been around for around 10 years.

Kon and YJ all have to be in their 20s at least.

[covertblizzard]

Teen Titans Chronology

Era 1: Superhero Names & Funky Nicknames

The Brave and the Bold (1955) #54 The Brave and the Bold (1955) #60 Showcase #59 Teen Titans (1966) #1-20 The Brave and the Bold (1955) #83 Teen Titans (1966) #21-22

This is the peak silly era. Goofy nicknames, (mostly) goofy one-off villains, occasional team-up, etc. As far as I'm aware, none of their real names are ever mentioned within their own title and it's just their superhero names.

It starts with Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad (in the first Brave and Bold), with Wonder Girl being the first addition when they are officially first called the Teen Titans (in the second Brave and Bold), so I'm counting the Fab Foursome (Cool Quartet? Fantabulous Foursome?) of them as the starting point. They're a team up to #18 with occasional guests from Speedy (#4 - with notes that there were an "avalanche of mail" asking for his inclusion, #11), Beast Boy (#6 - rejected by the Teen Titans and apparently previously the Doom Patrol for not having a guardian's permission slip, interesting note that he already had movie offers here), and Starfire (#18 - definitely not who you're thinking of and instead a Russian boy).

Issue #19 is when they become "Fab-Four-Sometime Five" where Roy joins and Garth takes a break, so the main four changed. There are then two more team ups with Jericho (#20 - also not who you're thinking of but some boy name Joshua) and with Hawk and Dove (#21).

I think only Mad Mod became a long-term villain (?) but the list includes: Mr Twister, the Astounding Separated Man, Beast-God of Xochatan, Akkuru, Ding Dong Daddy Dowd (Demon Dragster), Diablo, The Ant (less villain and more blackmailed by Mr Krask), Mr Baltzer, Mad Mod, Honey Bun (and a spy Karl Larner), Captain Tiger, The Scorcher, The Gargoyle (who makes a reappearance in #35), Captain Rumble, The Dimensional Caper (from Dimension X), Le Blanc, Punch (Sylvester Sepastopol), Fat Cat.

Era 2: Real Names, New Teammates, Mr Jupiter, and Solo Storylines

Teen Titans (1966) #22-31 The Brave and the Bold (1955) #94 Teen Titans (1966) #32-34 World's Finest Comics #205 Teen Titans (1966) #35-39 The Brave and the Bold (1955) #102 Teen Titans (1966) #40-43

This part of the story starts to have a bit more personality and it is a lot more character-driven as opposed to (short) plot-driven stories. Their real names are finally used and they're shown to hangout as civilians and not just superheroes.

This starts at the end of #22 when Donna Troy is given a name, a backstory (one of many), a new apartment, a roommate Sharon, and a makeover. Dick and Wally was previously named in #83 of The Brave and the Bold, but Roy gets named in #24. In a way, this makes Donna feel very much like the living center of the Titans for me, her development begins with the Titans and she's intrinsically tied to it very personally (and this also feels reflected in how Garth views Donna as the "TITANS FOREVER" among all of them). After all, at this point, there's no separate comics she is in unlike the other 4 main titans. She is also the only single character that appears in every single comic with no exception (other than the very first, but they weren't known as Teen Titans then either).

There aren't so much guests as much as two new permanent members - Lilith who joins right before Mr Jupiter comes into the picture in #25 and Mal who joins right after in #26. During this time, 6 of them are mostly all there and are led and trained by Mr Jupiter. The longest disappearance is when Dick goes to college (from #25-32 except for a single appearance in #28) and occasional disappearance when they stay behind to take care of Mr Jupiter's lab (sometimes it is unexplained but I chalk most disappearance up to this). From #26 onwards, all but 6 issues are not related to Mr Jupiter (#28-29 led by Garth, #31 led by Wally, #34 and #42 led by Donna, and #43). This era also seems to establish Wally (and Donna) as de-facto leader when Dick is not around.

All other guests are really more part-time members such as Hank and Don who do their summer stint from #25-#30, Gnarrk who first appears in #32-33 and comes back in #39, and Garth who appears in #28-29 and #40.

For the first time (as far as I'm aware), a known villain gets brought into the story - Ocean Master (Orm) and an alien leader Mofo in #28-29 with Garth going after him. This part also established the easy-to-get-into-fights, easy-to-get-out-of-fights (among themselves) dynamics that I associate with the Titans. They start to place more importance on their insecurities and friendship.

There are also 2 main "friends get brainwashed" (for extended period) type storyline during this period of time (which later seems to become quite commonplace among the Titans): once with Donna (#34 which Wally doesn't see) and once with Garth (#40).

This is also the only era which has quite a lot of additional separate solo storylines. It start with Donna if you count "The Origin of Wonder Girl" in #22 (although it's kind of more like an additional story where everyone appears), and then Wally and Garth (with Tula) in #30. Garth (#30, #35, #36, #38) and Lilith (#36, #38, #41, #43) have the most with 4 each, Roy (#35, #38) and Hank&Don (#31, #39) have two each, and Mal (#35) and Dick (#36) have one each (like Donna and Wally). Superboy (young Clark) actually also has two - one with Dick (#36) and one with young Ollie (#37) that doesn't even have any of the Titans in it.

Crucially, contrary to how modern comics love to portray Batman and Robin's view on the Teen Titans, Batman actually fully supports the Teen Titans in the original and has never been shown to do otherwise almost at all. In fact, he is the one with the most team-ups with the Teen Titans and the team-ups almost always happen because he needs helps "relating to the teens" and he specifically calls on them, with full respect for them (even purposely allowing Wally and Donna to punch him real hard that one time to solidify their cover). The only mentor who does show disapproval is actually Aquaman (in Era 3), who does so because Garth gets mysteriously sick which he blames on the Teen Titans (sort of half-correctly).

Interestingly, up to this point there are actually more team appearances of what I'm calling Alternative 5 or Alt5 (Wally, Donna, Roy, Lilith Mal) than of Fab5 (Dick, Wally, Donna, Garth, Roy). In fact, up to this point there were 12 appearances of Alt5 over 5 appearances of Fab5. This is mostly because Roy and Garth actually have very little team-ups because Roy became a permanent basically the same time that Garth stopped being a permanent member.

Titans Villains (other than Ocean Master hat one time) in this era: Hell's Hawks, Harry Tout, Dr Pauling, Councilman Buckminster (Santa Claus), Demoness possessing Magda Drachwyck (Miss Wickersham), Calibano Della Loggia (x2), Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Black Earl of Moray, Captain Barstow's Phantom, Lord Beetle

Era 3: When Fab5 was Defined, More Teammates, Teen Titans West, and Splitting Up

Teen Titans (1966) #44-53 The Brave and the Bold (1955) #149

There was a more than 3 years gap from the last issue #43 in February 1973 to issue #44 in November 1976 which translated to a 2 year in-comic hiatus of the Teen Titans. There's also a change of regular writer from (mostly) Bob Haney to Bob Rozakis. All this culminated in a change in tone of the characters being a bit more aggressive and antagonistic towards each other, especially with Roy (note: Snowbirds Don't Fly happened in 1971 so it's not because that occurred in between the break since it actually happened before the break). They fight a lot more this era and the storylines are longer and bleed more into one another.

Another obvious change is that Wally is shown to be way more into Donna than before (in his thoughts especially) instead of their more casual flirting. Wally does eventually confess to Donna who rejects him in this era. The other "official" relationships are Mal/Karen and Lilith/Gnarrk (funnily because Mal/Lilith was a thing for a bit).

In story, Mr Jupiter decides to close shop (unknown reason) and so they broke up, with Mal taking care of the labs and the rest pursuing their individual careers instead as they agreed upon (but Mal is unhappy about). This... doesn't really make sense because I'm not sure what "individual career" Donna has, but never mind.

Lilith is no longer in the main team (later explained that she settled in the West Coast with Gnarrk which is very contradictory to her last statement in #43 that the Teen Titans is her family). Garth comes back from #45 when he is mysteriously summoned by Mal's horn and it's like he never left. He wants to resign in #51 because his insecurities making him physically sick, but he agrees to finish the mission and they all ended up disbanding anyway. Karen appears first in #45 as Mal's girlfriend and joins as Bumblebee in #49, but Duela joins the team first in #46. Because of these lineup changes, Fab5 appearances started to catch up to Alt5 until eventually Alt5 (15 appearances) just barely edges out Fab5 (13 appearances). Interestingly, Dick-Wally-Donna-Roy-Mal actually end up appearing most (17 appearances).

They (it's honestly mostly Dick, Wally, and Donna) discuss the idea of a new headquarters first suggested by Donna in #45 (like I said, she's very much the living centre of the Titans). Dick makes the decision (because he is Leader-Man and Bruce is funding it) to have their headquarters as a restaurant front, Gabriel's Horn (named after Mal's horn given by the angel Gabriel in #45), run by Mal and Roy (the jobless duo apparently) in #46 and they set it up in #49. Mal and Roy also started forming the rock band The Great Frog (a job!) in #45 which plays in their restaurant.

Teen Titans West first meet up and is established in #50 with some familiar faces (Gar, Hank, Don, Lilith, Gnarrk) and some complete newbies (Bette, Ch'al) to the roster. Issues #51 and #52 have the East and West team up, resulting in basically every Titans ever joining with the exception of Tula (but then again, at this point she only appeared in Garth solo story and never in the main storyline). At the end of which, they have a big feast (sponsored by Dick) and decided to part ways to improve and work towards eventually becoming the future Justice League (as they were always meant to).

The final story #53 establishes their origin and formation story which includes Roy, but had Roy basically saying he wanted to be involved only whenever he wanted and not permanently (ahem commitment issues), establishing Fab5 as the clear founders of the Teen Titans in the last issue.

There is a third "friends get brainwashed/used" (for extended period) type storyline with Lilith (#50-52), except she's not evil, but her powers are manipulated for evil. With Duela, there is also the first instance of villain's children in the Titans (in future there is Joey and Rose most prominently), setting up the stage for Titans raising villain's children. They actually brought Two-Face in to visit Duela at least once (right after a crime too???) which is... interesting?

This era has many more appearances of known villains including Dr Light, The Fiddler, Two-Face, and Mr Esper (Captain Calamity). The final issue is where Antithesis first appear (he is a recurring villain or at least comes back in future issues), and the remaining unimportant ones are: The Wreckers, Flamesplasher (x2), Sizematic (x2), Darklight (x2), and Rocket Rollers led by Brian the Brain.

Finally, there are some unexplained mysteries. Where the hell did Mal's horn go since it went missing in #49? Who is the blonde "Little Queen" that Garth meets from #36 (because I don't think it's Nirka McDuff from #40)? Who are Lilith's parents? What's up with Mr Jupiter? Is he Donna's dad (#35)? Do they ever make use of the possibly haunted mansion and fortune they inherited in #43? Why did Mr Jupiter not bother to make Roy, Wally, and Lilith face their fears (#38)? Does he think redheads have no fears? Are we going to address the fact that Lilith is apparently Juliet reborn (#35-36) and decided to give up Romeo (who she was very enamored by for a while) for Gnarrk?

To be continued~

Some Statistics (For Fun)

Most to least appearances, we have:

Donna (60) - only missing from the very first story before they were coined the Teen Titans

Wally (58) - missing from 3 stories all during Mr Jupiter era (twice unknown reasons and once because he is watching the lab)

Dick (54) - missing from 6 issues for his college

Roy (41)

Garth (37)

Mal (28)

Lilith (22)

Mr Jupiter (12) - not a Titan but I was curious so I counted him

Hank and Don (11)

Karen and Duela (8)

Gnarrk (5)

Gar (4)

Bette and Ch'al (3)

Tula (1)

Most to least trio appearances (within Fab5):

Dick-Wally-Donna (50)

Wally-Donna-Roy (38) - the love triangle lmao

Dick-Donna-Roy (33)

Dick/Donna-Wally-Garth (32)

Dick-Donna-Garth / Dick-Wally-Roy trio (31) - DWDG and DWDR limiting factor

Wally/Donna-Garth-Roy (14) - Roy/Wally-Donna-Mal/Lilith have more than this (25, 23, 19, 18)

Dick-Garth-Roy (13) - Fab5 limiting factor

For quartets, Dick-Wally-Donna-Garth (DWDG) quartet (31) ends up exactly equal to Dick-Wally-Donna-Roy (DWDR) quartet (31).

Special note that because of Lilith separation in Era 3, even though Garth is brought back, the Rebirth "OG" line up (Fab 5 + Lilith) actually only has 3 appearances together. On the other hand, Alt 5 + Dick have 9 appearances (but no Garth). World's Finest line up (Fab5 + Karen) have 7 appearances but only 4 of which Karen is actually Bumblebee and fighting with them, while the Silver Age Final line up (Fab5 + Mal) has the most with 10 appearances.

Ultimately, Lilith does still make more sense to me than Karen to balance the team with more girls, because she definitely was there earlier, had more appearance than Karen, and also doesn't have the additional association of joining because of Mal since she predates Mal. That said, the girl with the most Fab5 teamup might actually be Duela who also has 7 appearances with Fab5, all of which she is on their side (although half their issue was trust which wouldn't make so much sense if she was with them from the beginning). The person with most Fab5 teamup is unquestionably Mal though (10). It's curious to see what is more "valid" but my personal opinion is that there is no point in making a Fab6 just let leave it be and acknowledge it as product of its time.

If you want to have a look at the data out of curiosity, it's here.

[the-brash-spud]

Do you think there's a person in Gotham who was rescued by Batman as a kid, and them years later, when they're adults, they got rescued by him again but because they're an adult they got the really gravely voice and overall adult treatment and throughout they were like "but I was your buddy/honey 🥺🥺" because Batman of course is much more gentle with kids then adults.

Do you think Batman ever encountered a situation like this? How did it make him feel? Old? Since so much time has passed. Content? Happy? Fulfilled? Because he gets to see the fruits of all his effort. An adult who does their best to live a life despite whatever he had to save them from.

[laufire]

jason's lazarus pit was golden jason's lazarus pit was golden jasonslazaruspitwasgolden jason's lazarus pit was golden JASON'S LAZARUS PIT WAS GOLDEN

AND PIT MADNESS IS *NOTHING*

[zpxz]

Ok so I think the reason why there’s the j+t carved in the cabin is bc, my theory is that Trevor and Derek got a custom-vr simulation just for the contestants. AND the original vr would have stopped at a certain time like for ex: 1 week, but in reality they would’ve been out for like a few hours. I think that explains that for that.

[glassdecanters]

i have just played telltale batman for myself for the first time, and can i just say i love the parallel of

bruce wayne as an identity being stripped of everything he has (a ceo title at wayne enterprises, his literal trust in his parents, his rights when in arkham)

put beside batman as an identity being stripped of everything he has (his gadgets and tech, even his suit is literally just fabric by the lady arkham fight)

and can i just add that i love this parallel because both prevail for the same reasons. genuine love and care for others. mostly alfred. bruce doesn't need the trust in his parents because alfred is his family, depending on your route he shields harvey from any harm because they're friends.

and batman prevails again, because of bruce's affections for alfred. his determination to keep that man alive. he puts himself, his life, his identity at risk simply as an ultimatum with lady arkham. his identity, or alfred's life.

anyways bruce wayne an alfred's dynamic is my bestest thing ever and i heart heart heart yippeee wahooo

[benbamboozled]

Seriously, do yourself a favor and read Cass’s original Batgirl run, Batgirl (2000). It’s definitely not perfect (there’s some gross cheesecake and questionable racial elements given Cass’s background, and some inconsistencies with continuity as the run went on)…

BUT, when it comes to Cass being treated as a three-dimensional character (and not just The Silent Badass or part of Steph-and-Cass), it’s pretty hard to beat.

(Also, it’s just good.)