#the most important character in the show who struggles to get screentime

[buckevantommy]

What fic tropes do you most want to see for bucktommy?

big fan of hurt/comfort and some angst, which i think we will get.

i want them to be settled in their relationship and be solid and be each other's home, and then comes the angst, but not in a way that threatens their relationship, more like: one of them gets hurt on the job for physical hurt/comfort - i would love to see tommy get hurt actually, and buck stays at his place to take care of him; proof that this capable brickhouse of a guy is not invincible. and he struggles to let himself be taken care of, and evan helps him realise that he has people who care about him - not just buck; maybe eddie visits! chim! hen! he's been on his own for so long he's quite self sufficient but buck isn't having it; this allows for some first fight potential, where tommy insists he can do it himself (bc he doesn't want to be a burden or seem weak) and buck being frustrated and a little hurt that tommy doesn't want him in his space or want his help, which makes buck feel like he's being too much and caring too much.. but they work it out! but maybe before they do we get chim/hen/eddie paying tommy a visit to check on him but moreover spend time with him and also talk things out a bit; tommy realising it's okay to let people in (chim would be perfect for this callback).

and tommy dealing with his asshole father for some emotional hurt/comfort - i just really want to see a less coolcalmcollected tommy, and i think buck seeing that and being there for him and tommy realising he has someone to lean on will strengthen their relationship.

and early season 8 with gerrard in charge is perfect for some emotional support and understanding: tommy being there for buck as he vents. and tommy confronting gerrard (not just about his treatment of evan and the 118 but about who he is and how he does not deserve to be a captain at all) which doesn't go well and brings up a lot of issues for tommy (his past self, his father and upbringing, etc) and results in him being riled and losing some of that cool calm composure buck is so used to - maybe we get buck finding tommy at the gym, or tommy and eddie doing muay thai because tommy needs the release. and eventually we get buck calming him down or tommy running out of steam and breaking down a little.

(this is all very tommy-centric i know, i just want more of him! more screentime! more emotional variation! more character and relationship growth!)

and as much as i want them to be a solid couple, i want there to be moments of uncertainty: jealous buck when he sees tommy is friendly with one of his exes or sees a guy flirting with tommy. tommy being so sure about a future with evan -has never been more sure of anyone in his life- but holding himself back because he doesn't want to move too fast for both their sakes - but he opens up by the end of the ep and it culminates in him asking evan to move in with him.

open and honest communication is integral to their relationship so i don't really want to see any secret keeping, but i could see one of them keeping a secret about the gerrard/ortiz drama to spare the other one worry or to keep them out of the crosshairs. but it won't be a lingering issue, preferably sorted in an ep or two.

also just: gimme friendship for tommy! gimme tommy and chim and hen and eddie hanging out (separately or together) because we know they're friends. gimme tommy and karen, tommy and maddie brunch dates - with jee! gimme tommy babysitting jee and the others! would also love to see some of tommy's coworkers and friends. basically let tommy have some platonic relationships because it's important to show he has a place in the 118 extended family even when evan isn't in the mix, and that he has a life outside the 118 too.

since tommy is a first responder i think it's a safe bet we'll see him working with the 118 at some point - lafd is linked from the streets to the skies - maybe buck doing a rope rescue out of the chopper or tommy rescuing buck and some civilians from a cliffside or highrise. maybe the 118 responding to a chopper crash. so many scenarios they could give us, and i want tommy working with the rest of the 118, too.

[stardustbuck]

toxic bwddie shippers are going to read into everything. you can’t stop it from happening. i think part of the issue is that journalists immediately started talking bwddie when bi buck came to be because it would get clicks and they knew just how popular it was. i don’t fault any of the actors for feeding into a little, they obviously thought it was fun and lighthearted to talk about, these people are not ingrained into fandom culture the way a lot of us are. what you find to be “hints” is simply an actor expressing they’d be open to a storyline if it were to be brought up. that they understand why people ship it, that the content is there and they see why people read certain scenes as romantic. sometimes two actors having great chemistry on screen is both a blessing and a curse.

tim minear is writing bisexual buck the way he wants to, not to appease a certain subset of fans. perhaps he fiddled with the idea years ago, but what we have now is bisexual buck with tommy kinard as his boyfriend. the idea of eddie and tommy was simply that, an idea, that ryan seemingly didn’t want to do because perhaps it felt wrong to him for eddie’s character. headcanoning eddie as gay or demi or anything is fine, writing him as queer is fine, but so far all i’ve heard from ryan is that he considers eddie to be a heterosexual man with an deep, meaningful friendship with a queer man and that means a lot to him considering how he feels male friendship should be.

of course buck and eddie are going to share copious amounts of screentime together. they’ve damn nearly been attached at the hip since s2 and bffs for liferz, buck and eddies friendship is important, buck is essentially christophers godfather/uncle, not his father. buck’s arc of the season was in the beginning, so we don’t focus as much on him as tommy because again, their storyline for the season was over, but tommy was brought back even just for 60 seconds to show that their relationship is still going strong, with what little time the crew had to work with this season, i think many people can agree they did a good job introducing this relationship and by the end getting people excited for season 8 to see their relationship grow and struggle with the reintroduction of captain gerrard.

but it’s clear no matter what, there is going to be people who are reading into every single thing and claiming it’s bwddie hints and well, maybe you’re right but atp im highly doubting it’s happening. especially with the way people are acting.

you’ll continue to hate tommy, you’ll continue to complain, you’ll continue to grasp at straws for how “this is how bwddie with happen still!” by the end of s8 when buck and tommy are most likely still together.

i can only hope people will come around and start to realize how amazing it is we even have bisexual buck at all and that bucktommy isn’t the evil ship you think it is now.

[courtney-deserved-better]

thoughts on the gen2 cast? hope ur having a lovely valentines day btw!

thank you! i had to work on valentines day but my coworkers had a little dance party and passed out chocolates and flowers and it was very sweet. anyway here are my thoughts:

anne maria - love her!! she's so fun and deserved better. i feel like i struggle to write her though

b - he also deserved better. trans and deaf king in my heart

brick - i feel like we'd get along irl. also deserved better but it was nice that he was respected for his elim by mike zoey cam

cameron - i wish i liked him more but he annoys me at times. has some great funny moments!

dakota - not a fan of the dakotazoid arc but i enjoyed her before that. i hc her and anne maria as latina and like to think they would chat in spanish while getting ready in the bathroom and sometimes mike (who i hc as latino) will join in (i love spanish-speaking hcs if you can't tell)

dawn - wish we got to see more of her. wish she was eviller. wish she had a proper rivalry with scott.

jo - she's so funny!! i feel like i struggle to write her too. if only i could get a better handle on her and anne maria i would write more jomaria

lightning - at first i thought he was annoying but now ive realized hes so fucking funny i wish he wasn't made a villain though that felt very shoehorned in

mike - pretty neutral, don't have a lot of dislikes when it comes to him but don't have a ton of likes either. i think if there was more time to explore his personality outside of his did i would enjoy him more (i would also love to see more of his alters they're so silly) he needs more screentime to just be mike outside of zoke and his did (but i understand why that didn't happen in a 13 ep season) (also that's not to erase his did i think that's an important part of him but for most of the show it feels like its the ONLY part of him) (this is a lot of description for a character im pretty neutral on. anyways)

sam - another character that annoyed me at first before i realized how delightfully silly he is

scott - funny scheming bastard man. wish we got to see a bit more sympathetic side to him

staci - pretty neutral, there's not much to go off of in canon but ive read some interesting headcanons/reworks of her personality

zoey - hmm. complicated. i would like her more if the narrative didn't overly favor her and could point out when she was being judgmental (and if she actually had growth, i read this great analysis years ago about how zoey as a character never internally changes from her first appearance to her last) it also bugs me how she has all these skills simply to serve the plot with no real explanation (i have a similar problem with julia but that's a post for another day)

[gay-disabled-characters-showdown]

LGBTQ+ Disabled Characters Showdown Round 2, Wave 2, Poll 9

A character being totally canon LGBTQ+ and disabled was not required to be in this competition. Please check qualifications and propaganda before asking why a character is included.

Check out the other polls in this wave and prior here.

Charlotte ‘Charlie’ Webber / Sun Spider-Marvel

Qualifications:

Charlie is canonically disabled and canonically queer, having EDS and being pansexual. She was originally a spider-sona created by a fan, Dawn Broder, who is agender and disabled.Unlike most disabled characters in superhero media, Charlie stays disabled even after gaining her powers! She uses crutches and a wheelchair, both of which are used alongside her webslinging. Her crutches have webslingers inside them, meaning she uses them to get around even while being sun-spider, and Across The Spider-verse shows her wheelchair being able to help her climb on walls and similar as well. Charlie's story also covers issues faced by disabled people! When an emergency happens at her prom, she's reminded that if she wasn't a spider-person she would be left behind as the others evacuate, which is something that's common irl as well.

Charlotte Webber (Sun-Spider) has Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and is an ambulatory wheelchair and crutch user. As shown in the comics she is also queer! She was created by Dayn Broder, a queer disabled comics editor and writer who also has EDS. Sun-Spider’s screentime in Across The Spiderverse was awesome especially the design of her wheelchair. She has web-shooters equipped in her crutches which she uses to fight with. She’s just so fucking cool and hopefully gets more inclusion in comics in the future.

Propaganda:

Charlie is SO important to me as a disabled person because she shows that we can be superheroes while still being disabled, we don't have to have our disabilities taken away to be super. She's also a very fun character! She's funny!

Mostly what I said in the last section, but once again she’s so cool and her wheelchair in ATSV is so sick (when she is not using it it follows her with sort of mecha spider legs).

Heart-Moonlight Chicken

Qualifications:

He's deaf (and I think one of the first ever deaf love interests in a Thai drama) and canonically gay with a boyfriend.

hes canonically deaf and gay

Heart is a gay deaf character in the drama moonlight chicken.

Heart is canonically deaf and canonically has a boyfriend at the end of the series! :)

Canonically queer and deaf

He’s canonically deaf and the love interest of another male character (Li Ming)

Propaganda:

A lot of his storyline is about the struggles of being deaf in Thai society. The show is only 8 episodes and he’s only a supporting character so it can't go super in depth to it but his arc was really well done imo. He lost his hearing due to illness like 3 years before canon (I forget th exact time frame), but his parents shut him away and never learned sign language so his storyline is about being able to come into his own and leave the house and everything. Like his love interest learns sign language for him and researches what to do to help him feel normal and supports him as his parents are forced to confront how they've failed their son with their lack of acceptance of being deaf. Like his whole story is just him finally getting to live his life normally again after being shut off from the world and having a supportive boyfriend. At the end of the show, he goes to a deaf college in America to study engineering.

he became deaf after a disease and since then is isolated in his home for 3 years. these years also coincide with the pandemic. and his parents didnt learn sign, just writing their messages in a paper and sliding it to him without hearing what he has to say. he was also presumably degraded for talking because it wasnt very clear because hes literally deaf. his parents by the end of the show try to talk better to him through sign but good god. he was so lonely

Heart is an amazing character. His story show us the hardships he faces with his family acceptance but also the importance of forming a community. His love story with ming is beautiful and heartwarming.

Heart is sheltered by his parents after losing his hearing due to illness. Throughout the series, however, his parents gain more understanding of him and his abilities and he gains a found family with his boyfriend Li Ming and Li Ming's family and it's all so heartwarming and wholesome. Although his parents see him as unable to live a normal life after he loses his hearing, he disproves this by seeking work, building relationships, and getting into college for engineering. He is the best boy!

When we first meet Heart, he is very sheltered from the outside world by his parents, who have taken pretty much no effort to understand Heart’s needs or wants since he lost his hearing. He is homeschooled and doesn’t seem to have any friends or sense of community. His parents leave him alone all the time, choosing instead to focus on their work. His bedroom is full of notes that his parents have left him. Hung up on the walls are different sign language posters, clueing the audience into the fact that he taught himself sign language. Over the course of the show, Heart develops a friendship and, eventually, relationship with Li Ming, a boy who works at a chicken rice shop. Li Ming sneaks Heart out of the house, where they do all kinds of things together – participating in a lantern festival, attending a community gathering for deaf folks, and learning how to drive a motor scooter, off the top of my head. While learning how to ride the motor scooter, however, Heart has a small accident and his parents find out about him sneaking out. The confrontation scene is one that is definitely best translated on-screen, but I’ll try to describe it the best I can. Basically, Heart, Li Ming, and Heart’s parents all hash it out. Heart’s parents accuse Li Ming of influencing Heart to disobey them, Li Ming explains that Heart wanted – and is capable of – doing the things they did together, Heart’s parents barely even look at him during the entire exchange, Heart finally gets fed up and tells his parents exactly how they make him feel, and Heart’s parents have to ask Li Ming what Heart was saying. After this confrontation, things get a bit better with Heart’s parents, though not perfect. At the end of the show, Heart and Li Ming travel overseas together, where Heart attends university and Li Ming works, a dream they talk about quite a few times over the course of the show.

He’s the first deaf love interest in a Thai drama! And he has the most adorable love story with another guy called Li Ming in the show who learns sign language in order to communicate with him more effectively. While he faces struggle from his parents being extremely overprotective after he lost his hearing a few years ago (also since he’s still a teenager) it ends up resolved with them changing their mindset and allowing him full freedom. His story shows struggle while not being a tragedy, and he ends the show going to study in America with his boyfriend being really happy <3

Anything Else?:

I feel like it isn't very often we see deaf queer characters, especially not ones who find love and a happy ending!

The qualifications and propaganda paragraphs correspond, @burnsuncomet is the second submitter.

[lookingfts]

What are your favorite tropes/motifs/themes to write when you write about Kate and Anthony? What are some constants that you think are imperative to stay true to their characters regardless of the AU?

I think your signatures/strengths include intimacy in a variety of forms, including smut in general, but specifically porn with feelings. I truly think authors like you are important in giving respect to the skill it takes to write good sexually explicit material. 99% of readers (at large, not in this community) are so dismissive of this facet of writing, especially in fan fiction, which we all know is massively disrespected by people who don't read it. As is romance writing in general. I'm rambling. Anyway.

Anyway, thanks for all the stories and for fielding so many questions here. I feel like after next week, the anticipated lack of Kate and Anthony screentime (at least during this first half) will see an uptick in interest in new Kanthony stories/headcanons/missing scenes from fans, and of course no writer is obligated to fill that demand, but I hope you and the many other talented writers here find some inspiration in what little of Lord and Lady Bridgerton we will see.

Also, writing grounded, flawed characters that remain likable but eventual find growth, often with the help of professional therapy. I LOVE seeing therapy come up in fictional narratives. We all need it. I wish it were more accessible in real life.

Lavishing Kate with the character building and time and attention her character deserves, the way the show didn't (and will no doubt continue not to).

Um... I have more, but struggling to articulate it at the moment.

Sorry for the rambling. I did intend just to answer those questions up top 🤦🏾‍♀️

(Also, Kate and Anthony being exhibitionists, haha. I love the different ways that pops up in your stories. These two, I swear.)

So many good questions here.

My favorite tropes/themes – that’s a hard one! Exhibitionism, absolutely – I just feel like canonically they’re the kind of people who get a thrill by tempting fate. Just right out on that gazebo where anyone could have caught them. 😂 I absolutely love writing dirty talk, I love an age gap, and I love playing with dom/sub dynamics (it seems fairly universally accepted that Kate and Anthony are both switches, and I find something so swoon-worthy about one of them willingly submitting to the other because they have full trust in them, and they communicate openly). Outside of smut tropes, I’m a sucker for hurt/comfort and bickering as an expression of sexual tension. Also miscommunication because they both have their Jump to Conclusions mats out at all times.

I think in every universe, Anthony is obsessed with Kate and Kate is at least a little reluctant to fall for him for one reason or another (mostly because he’s a sad little rich boi).

Unfortunately, yes, fanfiction does tend to be the butt of jokes. I hate when people use “it’s like fanfiction” to describe a poorly written piece of media – when I think that most people who read fanfiction can name dozens of stories that are better than the media they’re based on. And I think people realize how hard it is to write good smut when they read bad smut. 😂 I’ve seen some truly horrendous phrasing in smut.

Also agreed that professional therapy should be more accessible. I’m glad that the newer generations are speaking so openly about mental health, and the stigma continues to diminish. Therapy is healthcare, like anything else. And I think Anthony and/or Kate working through their issues with the help of therapy a) makes a lot of sense for their characters and their trauma and b) shows that they’re committed to being the healthiest versions of themselves for each other. (I have semi-recently become aware that a lot of people have had bad experiences with therapy, so this is not to diminish that! I personally have had good experiences but I understand that’s not a blanket statement for everyone.)

Fanfiction really gives you a wonderful opportunity to dig into the characters and flesh out lots of details about their backstories, in a way that TV shows aren’t usually able to do. I particularly like writing from Kate’s perspective because I relate to her so much, though it’s also very fun to write Anthony’s unhinged inner monologue!

[the-plot-blog-thing]

(originally published on 4/6/24)

WDAS TAGTEAM REVIEWS MOVIE #62: WISH (2023)

It's not fair, y'know? It's just not fair....

If I had seen this movie BEFORE the internet decided to already pick it apart, and BEFORE we learned about its earlier versions, I would've just said "Eh, it's cute enough" and moved on.

BUT now that we DO know, I can only see this movie and think, what if?

First, the good: all the acting and singing is all very good. They were wise to actually cast actors who can sing, so we didn't get a Beauty and the Beast (2017) problem on our hands.

The animation is also great! I liked how it looked from the first trailer. The colors are vibrant, and the characters have a great feeling of weight and movement. I really like how the backgrounds look especially.

Now then, onto the bad: The songs are too long and too similar rhythmically. None of them have a strong hook, they just repeat the same lines over and over again hoping that they'll stick in your head. Spoilers: they don't. The animal song is probably the worst.

There's a plot point where Victor Garber's character's wish was to sing a song that inspires the world. That's the main plot point of the first third of the film, and by the end, we still don't get to hear the song. They cut a song sung by Victor Garber in favor of...nothing?

You could really tell that there weren't any Broadway songwriters behind this one....

The film also has too many characters. I chalk most of this up to Asha's friends, who are all parodies of the 7 Dwarves. Only 2 of them are actually important, combine that with the queen, the goat, the star, and Asha's mother and grandfather, it's just a struggle for screentime.

The references didn't bother me all that much actually, up until that last scene where it all got a bit much. I know they were trying to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the company, but the Once Upon the Studio short did that well enough.

Every scene just repeats the same information too many times, to the point where each scene drags a minute longer than it should. And for a 90 minute film, that's saying something.

I was bothered by how Magnifico was corrupted by the dark magic. The fact that he clearly had a tragic backstory, and his wife was worried for him, showed he must have at least still had some small shred of good in him.

But then the film just says "No, once you touch dark magic, you're evil forever!" and that just bothered me. I know we've wanted an outright villain in one of these movies again, but this was not it. Was he under the influence of an evil book or not? You can't have it both ways.

Look, we've all seen the animatics and concept art, and we all heard the interviews. This movie could've been much different and potentially way better, but we can't keep dealing in hypotheticals. We can only judge the movie we got, and this one was just ok.

Emperor's New Groove famously was a totally different movie before it became the comedy we know it as today, and while it's interesting to see what could've been, nobody thinks less of Emperor's New Groove because it isn't Kingdom of the Sun.

As such, I can only look at Wish for what it is, and as of now, it's only a

5.5/10: I wish that they learn and go forward from here

But next time is Moana 2, so who knows?

[transmascutena]

what are some of your opinions on keiko and the other nanamis "friends"? I never got to really analize them, but the mean girls dynamic they have is kinda interesting and fittint in the context of the eternal school in which everyone is lost and wants to be special lol

i think keiko's episode is an over-hated one, but i understand why people don't like it much. its placement in the show feels weird with the pacing, and wakaba's black rose duel should have been the last (before mikage obviously) because it's the most climactic. i will say it's pretty funny to have utena be like "who even is this???" directly after having to duel her best friend though.

as for keiko herself i... don't really have that much of an opinion on her, and even less so aiko and yuko, as they're mostly in the show to give more context to nanami (and later her relationship to touga.) i feel for her, the same way i do for all the black rose duelists, their struggles and insecurities are very realistic and often relatable, but because keiko has the weakest connection to the main cast and because the desire to be special and the resentment of those who are was already explored much better by wakaba just one episode prior, it makes it a little harder for me to care about her character. am i supposed to think she's more interesting and sympathetic than any other girl touga ignores? <- this is something that comes up in nanami's episodes later on, but the effect keiko has on her is much more interesting to me than keiko herself is. they are the swarm nanami is afraid of being part of

overall keiko, aiko and yuko are pretty weak characters in my opinion, but i think they're supposed to be, and i don't see it as a flaw of the show, as giving them more screentime and development would be pointless and distract from the plot and the more important characters. they are effectively a look at what the ordinary students at ohtori are like, they just get a little bit more attention from the narrative because they're close to nanami (which they only are because they want to be close to touga, which ends up being part of nanami's character arc)

[hauntedmoors]

more pondering and some of the aspects of the show that’ve dissatisfied me so far

on a more serious note this show is really not doing good in terms of economical storytelling lol, and has indeed already made some very stupid choices. liandrin is a side character who gets like three lines at the most. I won’t lie - I’ve enjoyed her in the show in the recent episodes because I do think she’s fairly relevant in terms of the liandrin/nynaeve/moghedien trio although she really annoyed me in the beginning but all that screentime could have been dedicated to other important characters / more worldbuilding in a show that’s already struggling with pacing because it’s limited to 8 episodes. moiraine’s family doesn’t exist in the books at all and moiraine being a Distant Person is reiterated too often to count as smart storytelling. the emphasis on the warders this early in the series is very annoying, not going to lie, because they’re mostly relevant in the autonomy question and I don’t really care about them otherwise because they literally don’t deserve a greater focus in the story than the main characters themselves. lan and moiraine’s storyline tackling the Distance question so quickly makes me unhappy because tfoh is a book I’m very fond of, although I guess it Kind Of makes sense since the story is set in cairhien and they clearly wanted to tackle the question of moiraine’s family. I’ve already talked about this but I’m also pretty unhappy that moiraine and lan aren’t the same age on the show. more importantly why does min not have THREE aunts when they’re clearly in reference to the three fates in the books. it would’ve taken zero (0) effort to throw in a random extra. why was there a domesticated animal in tel’aran’rhiod in the dream sequence when lanfear interrupts ishy invading rand’s dream. why is every single sex scene involving rand lacking any real eroticism. how is it possible to *sleep* in the world of dreams. why is there so little of siuan. can logain see or feel rand channeling (?) that sequence was so weird. when are we going to see siuan and egwene bond!!!! why were all of siuan’s plotlines transferred to liandrin!!! are we already getting started on the black ajah plotline in the show without seaine and pevara :/

[ppeanutz]

!!ACROSS THE SPIDERVERSE SPOILERS UNDER THE CUT!!

something I noticed that I haven't seen anyone else point out yet is that most of the main adult characters in atsv are in different stages of parenting that can be organized in order.

Jessica is pregnant, so she hasn't experienced raising a child and doesn't have the guidance and perspective of someone who does. this could explain the way she acted towards Gwen (not convincing her to stay in her own universe and reconnect with her father, etc;).

Peter B. is a very new parent, he's obviously enamoured with his kid (constantly showing her off and bringing her everywhere). he still doesn't have the most experience with raising a child.

Miles' parents are much further along the parenting route and are much more experienced. like many parents of older kids, they are struggling to understand Miles. they know he's hiding something and growing distant but they don't know why. because of their knowledge of how to raise a child, they remain open-minded (especially Rio) and let Miles figure things out himself.

Gwen's father shows what happens when you nearly sever ties with your child and refuse to see their point of view. in this case Captain Stacy let his job get in the way of empathizing with Gwen. ultimately, though, he reconciles with her and they begin to reconnect.

Miguel lost his daughter forever, for him there is no way to apologize and reconnect. this is an obvious reason for his pessimism and why he can't understand why Miles would want to save his own father. however, he has better judgement than Jessica and was against letting Gwen come to the lobby at first.

I guess you could fit Inspector Singh in here somewhere? he's obviously very protective of his daughter to the point of standing between her and Pavitr's relationship, but he doesn't have much screentime so it's hard to pin him down somewhere.

I have no idea where I'm going with this but it's just something I noticed and wanted to mention :3

side note: all of the main police captains are also fathers. Idk where the writers'll take this idea or if it was even intentional. but.

to close,

THE CHANGES BOTH CHILDREN AND THEIR PARENTS EXPERIENCE AS A DIRECT RESULT OF EACH OTHER!! THE GROWTH THEY UNDERGO TOGETHER!! THE IMPACTS THEY HAVE ON EACH OTHER AND THE WAY THEIR RELATIONSHIP SHIFTS AND CHANGES NATURALLY! THE IMPORTANCE OF UNDERSTANDING YOUR CHILD AND FORGIVING YOUR PARENT!!

[hello-nichya-here]

is it just me or does the majority of atla's fandom care about mostly about FN esp zuko and azula while completely discarding the other characters and themes of the series

It's not just you, and it's not just the fandom either. Bryke, and some of the other writers, clearly have a preference for the Fire Nation stories, Zuko's in particular. 

It was a combo of “Give the people what they want” and “The people want what they are given” and that came to be because of a few things:

Good planning and the quality of the writting

The writers changed MANY things from their original idea for the story, and Fire Nation, while still affected by it, seemed to never lose it's main focus: Zuko rebelling against Ozai and joining team Avatar.

The Gaang meanwhile went through plenty of changes. Toph was originally a super tough guy, not blind, and would be in a love triangle with Katara and Aang. Suki was meant to be a one-off character. Katara went from struggling with waterbending to suddenly being able to do some serious damage while fighting Pakku. The episode that would be based on Aang's parents was completely scrapped.

So many changes, many of them at least minute, led to some storylines of the Gaang being more truncaded, rushed, botched, or just not living up to their potential. Again, that applies to the Fire Nation and Zuko's arc as well, but not to the same degree as the rest (at least not until the comics and Korra, when any quality was long gone from any storyline of any character and nation).

Aang's connection to Zuko and to the Fire Nation

There were plenty of parallels between Aang and Zuko throughout the seasons, and we later even found out that Aang is the reincarnation of Zuko's great-grandfather. Naturally, that gives Zuko A LOT more screentime - he is basically a villain protagonist from the start of the show. And since people tend to think of the more complicated, or sometimes straight up evil, character is the most interesting one, it led to most of the audience thinking the Zuko side of the dynamic was the better written one by default.

We can also not forget that Aang's most recent past life, Roku, is the one he interacts with the most, and he was not only part of the Fire Nation and of Zuko's family, but he was directly involved in the start of the war - which is the main plot of the show.

And on top of all that, Aang also genuinely LOVES the Fire Nation and is one of the few people alive who remembers a time when the war was not a thing and the Fire Nation was radically different. The comparisson is important for the story and it's protagonist, and thus it draws even MORE attention to that part of the story.

Villain bias

The Fire Nation are the bad guys in the story, but we know that’s something that can get people’s attention and spark their curiosity. Why did the Fire Nation attack everybody else? How big is the list of horrible shit they did? How powerful are they really? Is there even a way for Aang to stop them? What’s gonna happen to them once/if they are defeated? Can they really dominate the world? Can they really live peacefully with the other nations once the war is over?

It’s natural for the audience to be intrigued by the bad guys, even without agreeing with or liking them. The fact that Fire Nation is also invading other places and chasing the hero means they’re part of the conflict of nearly every episode, and views are constantly waiting to see what they do next - regardless of them being excited for it or dreading it and wishing the fuckers would go away. 

Antagonists usually get a lot of screentime, and the very plot of Avatar requires the Fire Nation to constantly be either shown or talked about for the level of threat to the heroes to be made as clear as possible.

The lack of development of the other nations

That one is pretty self-explanatory. The Water Tribes and the Air-Nomads weren’t given much screentime, which kind of makes sense considering, ya know, the freaking genocide. However, the writers could have used some “flashback episodes”, simmilar to The Storm, to help the audience be more invested in them and care about what is at stake. The conflict is more centered around the Fire Nation attacking the Earth Kingdom - to the point that the war is pretty much considered won once Azula and Zuko conquer Ba Sing Se.

Familiarity

This is likely the most important one.

1 - While writing about an abusive, dysfunctional family and about a war isn't exactly easy (read the comics to witness how badly that can be screwed up), it is still easier than writting about how the last survivors of two genocides get by and deal with their trauma. The villain seeing the error of his ways and changing sides, and the brave hero rebelling against the injust system are popular tropes and did NOT start with Zuko's redemption arc, no matter how much the fandom tries to convince itself that it did. Brian, Myke and the other writers likely grew up with that kind of story, as did most of us, so naturally they'd be better at writting it, and most people could understand it, since we saw it a million times before.

2 - The Fire Nation is heavily inspired by Japan, and Japanese culture is more "mainstream" than Inuit or Tibetan culture, thus the writers were more familiar with it - to the point that Avatar had WAY more simmilarities to anime than most western cartoons. And once again, what was the non-fire nation arc people seemed most invested in? Ba Sing Se. Which is famous for it's great walls, having the most people and a culture that is fucking ancient, and when Iroh took a knife from a general during his siege and gave to Zuko, said knife had a "Made in earth kingdom" joke. Doesn't it sound some other asian country that most people have at least some surface knowledge of?

3 - The writers are americans, and the Fire Nation has some american inspiration. While it was not at the level of "Let's make Not!New York a thing in this pan-asian world!" yet, the writers said they based many things about the Fire Nation off of the US - most notoriously the military shit, and the habit of "We know what's best for everyone, the rest of the world should be like us." Once again, being familiar with what you're writting makes it more likely that you'll do a better job at it than at writing about something you don't really know much about.

Conclusion

Zuko and the Fire Nation became as popular as they did because of a perfect storm of very especific factors - some that were inevitable due to the narrative itself, and some that were caused by flaws in the writting.

[edalynn]

I personally love how people were adamantly mad about how Amity stole screentime and development from Willow, but then cheer when she is awkwardly glued to Hunter and never let her exist on her own or even make content for her to make up for the shows lack of development with her. I feel there were so many interesting threads of story that could have been done with Willow that just kinda, vanished? mainly supression of emotion, 'out of sight out of mind'. They could have explored her relationship with her dads, is she resentful that they decided her track for her? is she able to even communicate those issues with them? was she mainly putting up with Amity to placate Luz and ignoring her deeper anger? The most we got was a meh side story with Amity and Willow in labyrinth runners, and honestly that whole episode is frustrating outside of the legend Gus, it legit has a plot hole where Hunter SOMEHOW knows Graye is in the gym despite being knocked out AND he was just being randomly dragged around the halls instead of being watched by Graye, who knew he was a high value target as the Golden Guard???? Sorry for the rant, its just cathartic knowing others are irritated by the ocean of Huntlow and its shoehorned 'just because ig' vibes.

Yo I didn't notice the insane amount of plot holes in Labyrinth Runners until you just pointed it out lmfao. But for real. It's the same people complaining that Willow didn't get the development or screentime she deserved now adamantly insisting hunt//low is canon and she's in love with Hunter despite her having even LESS development now. I REALLY thought we would see something about her tendency to suppress her feelings, which I know we don't have much time left, but the fact that she seemed so happy-go-lucky in the human realm while everyone else had some type of distress about not being able to get back except for her. So she's clearly still bottling up her emotions or her character is being disregarded again in favor of other plotlines (which, like I said, I don't blame the writing for since we have very limited time left and Dana had to cut out bits that weren't absolutely necessary to the plot). Sticking her with Hunter and putting them in a relationship would take away her personality and character even more when we already don't have the available screentime Willow deserves :/ I really, REALLY would've liked her and Amity's friendship and struggles to be explored more thoroughly, too. The potential full arc and friendship we could've had with Willow and Amity is so much more interesting and plot important than a potential romance with a boy she's barely talked to. Honestly, Hunter and Amity's friendship being explored in regards to the events of Eclipse Lake would've been way more interesting than the possibility of hunt//low. I will never not be mad at the albeit miniscule amount of screentime, but still screentime nonetheless, that's been stolen because of fanservice for a bland, white toast ship. Give me Willow struggling with her own mental health, give me Willow and Amity fully reconciling their past with actual closure, give me Amity struggling with trusting and being friends with Hunter and Hunter having to deal with the bad things he's done in his past and having to reconcile with apologizing and growing from it to become a good friend, give me Hunter and Amity making active, noticeable strives to move past it and become close friends despite it all.

[nalyra-dreaming]

I think it would be really interesting to analyse all of the ‘changes’ the writers made when adapting season 1 when we speculate about season 2.

Being loyal to the core of the plot and characters is obviously important but the how we get there has been so wonderfully fluid.

Lestat turns Louis ➡️ they have a courtship over many months and a much more dramatic turning scene …the romance is made completely clear

Louis feels guilt for taking Claudia’s human life away, draining her, they take her for selfish reasons ➡️ Louis is inadvertently responsible for a riot that gets her killed because he was struggling with his vampiric nature and brings her to lestat …Louis becomes more active in wanting her to be a vampire and then more guilt

Claudia plans lestats murder ➡️ Claudia involves Louis in the murder and pressures him into being complicit, Louis claims he was to one to slit lestat’s throat in the end ….a greater rift between him and Claudia

Not to mention the timeline changes and the fact Louis and armand in the modern day never drifted apart as much as they did in the book…and armand may not have come clean about everything that happened in Paris (a guess)

I think the writers obviously want to keep show watchers and book readers alike on their toes at all times but also maybe most majorly they don’t feel a desire to scene for scene recreate what the film already adapted, so the fact the film never adapted a big chunk of lestat’s role in part 2 has left so much space for them to play around. They aren’t going to want to leave him out for most the season but the book still doesn’t provide much so I think they will get really creative and wont pass up the opportunity to maybe have a few mad Paris scenes with the NOLA family all together and sharing screentime. The book accurate idea lestat is only going to be in a dungeon kept by armand there might be assuming too much. We should really expect some big changes while they still remain ‘wildly loyal’ as Rolin put it, stay true to character but they will put in new scenarios we can’t imagine yet.

The nature of Claudia’s death I think will be biggest diversion maybe, just a hunch, Louis’ grief and the burning of the theatre are the only things we can count in for sure to happen. The trial could be flipped on its head in so many interesting ways. Thus far in season one all the pivotal months have has some twist to them. What do you think?

YES! I think that is very likely, actually.

I don't think they'll keep Lestat in the dungeon for the whole time either. I just mentioned the timeline earlier in relation to possible jealousy, because I don't quite see that happening.

BUT you are right, maybe they'll expand on that. I'm pretty sure they'll make it seem as if it is Lestat's fault Claudia gets condemned at first (Twitter will explode), and only later on we'll get the truth - and yes, Louis may not know (or remember) yet.

But I also expect them to keep us all, show and book based audience, on their toes. So far they've done a masterful job, and... while I expect them to get to the main plot points... I'm mostly giddy to see how they'll twist it to get there.

I mean, we're STILL hunting for all the little things in this show, right, and that is so rewarding. If you hear Bailey gushing about season 2 opens up all the characters... *shivers in delight* - I expect them to do all that and then some.

Given the fact that Rue Royale has not burned though... and that we didn't get Swamp!Stat... some of those twists might be truly surprising. :))

But we'll see.

I've seen so many theories now... it will be truly exciting to see who or what comes close :))

[patrocles]

Considering he’s right about the other leaks I can’t see him being wrong about the helaemond leak. Aemond’s had the most screentime of the kids, they’re not going to keep him holed up in Harrenhal to only have a romance and burn the Riverlands and then give the most significant events to the son that none of the show only viewers know exists. Theyll prob give Aemond Daeron’s storyline so he’ll fight to get back to KL and Helaena which is where the aemon/naerys element comes in&will lead the sack

(cont'd) of Bitterbridge to avenge Maelor. Alys isnt important to the core story of hotd which is about the Targaryens and her story is unfinished so there’s no satisfying point to leave it off. Nothing is lost if she’s left out. The writers dont care about characters outside the immediate family circle. With helaemond they can just build upon s1 and flesh out Helaena and it ties together his death with her suicide which leads to the revolt. For Aemond he will struggle between duty and personal desire.

I've been thinking about how to reply to this. I could go into depth about how I don't agree with your interpretation of Aemond's character and the show overall. I know my words will be wasted so I'm not going to bother.

I think I'm moreso trying to figure out what you want my reaction to be with all this? "Oh now I'm convinced that Alys isn't important at all so I'm going to stop caring about her and come over to the Helaemond side! You've won me over."

I've been in the ASOIAF fandom for so long and I've seen all manners of ships happening, every combination you can think of. I don't care what anyone does and I literally don't care what people are into. Helaemond has a lot of traction, it has a lot of fics and fanart and people that support it. And yet me and the like 5 others who enjoy Alys and her relationship with Aemond are getting these anons here on tumblr with messages just like this or randos on twitter trying to ~convince us~ or really just try and shit on our fun about how Alys won't be in the show and doesn't matter, for what? It it not enough to have your ship? Do you so desperately need us on your side or just don't like seeing others enjoy something you don't because that enjoyment is somehow threatening?

You clearly seem to have put a lot of thought into this theory and that's cool. It honestly sounds like you needed more convincing than I do. Respectfully, I don't care. I don't enjoy this ship, I don't see the narrative function of it, I think the "this character doesnt matter to the ending therefore they should be cut" is a bad storytelling runoff from Game of Thrones and has rotted so many people's brains in how they watch this show (not to mention wrong in this case), and I think the "evidence" is wafer thin at best and requires a complete overhaul of Aemond's arc to make it work.

I like Alys Rivers, I like her relationship with Aemond, I have since before the show even aired, and that's where I'm staying. I don't need to be disproved or convinced otherwise.

[steveharrington]

But we’re not told WHY they’re vecna’d. There’s no reason why vecna targets traumatized teens EXCEPT to make it even more horror-movie-ish. Why do they get trash compacted like that specifically? It’s implied that’s how vecna a powers work but why? No idea.

The show has left so many unanswered questions already and this new element (vecna itself!) just over complicates everything

And I’m actually kind of pissed bc Patrick gets vecna’d and we know almost nothing about him. But stranger things… hates poc

I actually kind of hate Chrissy because of how differently she (pretty white girl) was treated from Patrick (black boy). And. her eating disorder existed SOLELY for exploitative purposes just to cause an emotional reaction it’s not something that adds to her as a character it’s just there to freak the audience out, meanwhile other REAL LIFE ACTORS are being forced to starve themselves for the roles. We get it eating disorders are scary good thing they’re not real! /s

Acting like this new girl will be important focusing on her ed only to kill her off in the most horrific way possible… i don’t like it it feels exploitative especially of a real world problem this show is absolutely complicit in spreading

We got a LOT less development for Fred than chrissy and didn’t fucking. Languish in such a triggering topic I think he was the happy medium.

Regardless the focus on traumatized teens with no other similarities was already so random they could have just picked literally anyone with no special backstory and it would have worked just as well? At the end of the day Chrissy ONLY matters as motivation for Jason, who only matters as motivation for Eddie ( and since Eddie’s death did nothing like. It didn’t seem like he was saving Dustin’s life or anything) who only matters to make Dustin kind of sad? She died for man pain except the ultimate man pain was for some guy she never even met

Chrissy isn’t a person or a character she’s a bafflingly written INTENTIONALLY TRIGGERING and misogynistic plot device with an outrageous amount of minute details they could have given to any of the real characters. They didn’t have to spend 10 minutes pretending she mattered only to beat her to death with a rock and then run over her a few times for good measure

well first of all i am no authority on the topic of whether or not chrissy's struggles with her ed were done correctly and therefore i will not speak on it because its really....not my place as someone who hasn't experienced that!

as for why vecna targets people with trauma specifically, i think it serves a greater narrative purpose and that's depicted best through max's arc this season. vecna's whole backstory as henry shows that he was obviously traumatized himself by brenner and when he appeals to chrissy, fred, and max he attempts to persuade them to just give up/join him/etc because it's easier than carrying on. he's using their trauma against them. and then when max is faced with this threat of losing her life to vecna, it motivates her to want to get better and want to stop isolating herself from lucas and the group, she literally says "i don't want to go, im not ready" and it kinda overall like. saves her life! vecna acts as a narrative tool to explore mental health and trauma and guilt. imo it's much much MUCH more impactful for our characters to overcome him through their bonds and their desire to live despite what they've been through than like.....killing a monster of the week

obv you dont have to agree with me and that's fine but i don't think chrissy is like...a misogynistic charicature in the slightest. like i said before i really don't think chrissy's treatment in the show was uniquely different than fred's or even max's. i don't really understand how chrissy's trauma was "languished in" any more than fred's? i feel like they got equal screentime and fred's vecna vision was just as brutal as chrissy's, even if they talked about two entirely different topics. and if im being completely honest (again not trying to be rude or demean your view of the show, but you did send this ask to me personally so im going to give my honest opinions back) i think referring to chrissy as a "plot device" and not a "real character" is intentionally reading the show in bad faith.

this season is a horror season. people die like they do in any slasher movie. i understand if the vecna plotline isn't for everyone because like yeah watching characters who are already suffering die very tragic deaths is hard! but i think the point of vecna like i said before is to personify trauma, guilt, and shame to allow our characters to overcome those feelings. chrissy's death worked both to establish what vecna does and to involve eddie. but i dont think that automatically makes her a "prop" or a "plot device" because she's given a personality, she's given a lot of thought and care from the actress, she's given people who mourn her. i think it was genuinely one of the sweetest moments in the whole show when eddie dedicated his little guitar solo to her because it showed that her death affected him and in motivating him to want to kill vecna and save his friends from her same fate, it had meaning

[hunt4tlow]

WAIT you mentioned that you stanned Willow before ASIAS, when DID you start stanning her?? for me, I've always loved her, but i started stanning her when I saw her lifting weights and bossing Amity around in FATCDP😭

“stanning” lol I’ve just always thought she was neat. Ironically it was during the great willow drought of season 2a that made me really see the potential in her character that had gone mostly overlooked

for starters there’s her dads! Even though they never really get never really proper focus in an episode (despite the blight parents getting several… ugh.) they managed to grab my interest in that single interaction they DID have with willow. I especially find it interesting how Harvey is willing to drop everything for willows education, and when we later learn he was an abominations student at a notoriously competitive school, it adds a whole new layer of context for why he was so adamant that willow stay in that track despite her obvious struggles. He probably started off much the same way as willow, and had to work his way to the top, and genuinely believes that this is what is best for willows future, even if it pains him to watch his daughter cry after once again failing to construct an abomination for homework. I would have LOVED to see an episode in season 1 or even season 2 examining how this affected their bond, think about it: a younger willow who knows that her dads only want what’s best for her, and they support her no matter how badly she’s doing, but she knows deep down that she’s not like her papa, abominations aren’t for her and they never will be, but she ALSO knows how important perseverance is to him. This is what I really want to write about at some point so I guess I should save all this for then LOL

S2a is also when I started shipping huntlow hehehe!!! Bc ohhhhhhh my god the half a witch parallels??? How they both understand what it’s like to be perceived as weak, as someone they’re not???? Ohhhhh man like you just KNOW they would understand each other so much from that shared experience alone. Like on top of all their other shared interests, like hunter having at least a chunk of knowledge about plant properties and willow working out much like hunter probably does regularly in the EC it would make so much sense if they became close friends and potentially something more than that. Then asias happened and 😄😄😄😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁

ASIAS IS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT‼️‼️‼️ idk if I would call it my fav episode anymore since it has some issues but ough it’s definitely my biggest comfort episode aka the one I rewatch the most. Willow finally gets to show off her phenomenal leadership skills as flyer derby captain!!! Now that she’s dropped abominations, flyer derby feels very much like a new way to connect with her dads and it’s so sweet :’) ohhhhhhh and her team??? The entrails??? Beloveds???? I would die for them. And the episode reminds us that willow still has those insecurities despite everything, she’s still healing from the bullying, being “half a witch”, like her flyer derby opponent is her former teacher holyyyy shit. And while I do think they could have cut a little of hunters role in the episode since willow definitely needs the screentime more, I love how well his presence complements her. To him, willow isn’t any of the things she sees herself as in her lowest moments, she’s the captain. She’s fearless and brave and ready to throw hands with a coven head to protect her team. He sees her the way she wants to be seen and it’s so lovely

AND WILLOW BEING SILLY IN TTT IS SO IMPORTANT so many people forget that she’s not the overprotective mum friend or whatever the fuck she’s 15 and she loves poking strangers in the butt with plastic pitchforks and saying “mwahaha!!” and doing fingerguns at the nerd who is so so clearly in love with her!! She can be a strong responsible leader and still be a goofball some of u are just cowards ok. And she loves photography??? The contrast between inner willow burning away her memories of amity because “out of sight, out of mind” to present willow treasuring her time together with her family and friends, capturing the memories in a scrapbook while they all try to get home??? Cries forever. I can talk more if you want. I am normal about fictional characters ok 🙂

[maddy-ferguson]

Ngl i am a little bit tired seeing ppl come up with excuses for why Will was sidelined and receives minimum screentime each season bc supposedly he will receive all of his screentime in the finale. It just makes no sense for your supposed centre character to receive minimum screentime for 4 seasons straight. And i would agree that its all intentional if the show doesnt follow the fanservice agenda with giving more screentime to characters like Steve and Dustin and Hopper bc they are liked by the audience meanwhile Jonathan and Will and even Joyce sometimes have been shat on for a long time. There is no way to fix this only in the finale season. I dont want to sound like a hater but it is really screaming bad writing.

it's annoying because on the one hand i like the story of will being replaced by el after vanishing and i like to think of that being reflected even in the fabric of the show. because she did replace him, people (mlvns) think of mike el lucas and dustin as the core four because she took his place while he was in the upside down and then started dating mike which is obviously what will wants, and because if it all goes as planned season five will make people see that will was just as important all along (a girl can dream) (i don't mean in terms of screentime). i think that story's very fun, cruel summer season 1 (something i've said before in the notes of this post from a while ago) except the girl who replaces will does it without meaning to and she helps save his life so it's very different. on the other hand...as i said in april...

the byers being sidelined? for will i guess you can rationalize it and come up with great and convincing meta reasons as to why his character was sidelined in seasons 3 and 4 (which, yeah, fascinating, i will still hate it ten years from now, no matter how important to season 5 will is), but what about jonathan? what about joyce? how does one justify the fact that winona went from being the reason 75% of people older than 15 started watching the show to having less screentime than fucking jason in season 4? it is annoying when people act like byler endgame will make everything right and will make stranger things a perfect show because it really won’t

also i'm not sure about joyce having less screentime than jason i actually just saw people say that and i can't find a s4 screentime chart to confirm lol. but yeah the thing is...when it's all of the byers not just will getting sidelined to make room for characters like steve it's like. this is not my stranger things cruel summer-like story (that i admittedly made up) where will got replaced in his own life while he was kidnapped anymore. it's fanservice and it's steve somehow lowkey becoming the face of the show because shawn levy apparently loves joe keery so much lol. and of course fans will make the show their own and steve is not the most important character when you watch the actual show but idk. i just don't understand why they let it get to this point was jonathan not your self insert underdog miserable guy who gets the girl when the show started like why did you stop liking him when he got the girl😭😭 it just sucks because whether you like it or not the byers made the show it was them and the kids that made season one what it was. i know the will and jonathan stuff is still there (in season 4 because in season 3 despite spending a lot of time together they...have nothing?) but oh my god the joyce and jonathan relationship is...like do the writers know that jonathan is joyce's son before being will's father figure. i think the parentification stuff is great and very interesting and i hope he doesn't go to emerson OR lenora but oh my god. i just don't understand because it's RIGHT THERE in the show but why don't they do more with it. it's just insane to me. he's not all alone out there in the world but he very much is and i don't know how much of it is joyce being a struggling mother and how much is the writers not giving a fuck. do you think joyce and jonathan will have even just one conversation in season 5. that would be crazy.

the will getting replaced à la kate wallis in cruel summer and that being reflected by his absence even when he's back from being in another dimension and from being possessed thing i'm talking about i both like and dislike. because some of it feels very intentional (cf first post i linked) but some of it really doesn't, especially when the sidelining is a problem with all the byers like i just mentioned. and the end result is that a lot of people are like no will isn't important at all yes he's the one who disappeared and his vanishing kickstarted the show (some of them don't even say that they're like el opened the gate so it's her show WELL i'm very sorry guys but had will not disappeared mike never would've fallen in love with her in her yellow benny's burgers t-shirt so thank you will as always) but the only thing he does is cry and be gay and have a bowlcut now so he doesn't matter, which is always annoying. and it's not the el show but it kinda is the el show yk, do i think we could do with a little less el sometimes yes but it's not really el's massive screentime that bothers me because again, i think the willel juxtaposition swapping places thing is very interesting. what i cannot in good conscience defend is the steveification and simultaneous debyersification of stranger things i just can't!

and as i mentioned in the tags of my post from april and like you said, i think people are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think season 5 being will heavy is gonna fix it. it's too late. he probably won't get as much screentime and focus as will fans have come to expect because stranger things is not skam lol. i don't even know how much screentime would make it fair and would make people happy? i think you can enjoy the meta posts and reasons that read like excuses while still wishing they hadn't sidelined him that much. because the posts and the discussions are great but i also like having a good time while watching the show and it's not just tumblr willuminatis that feel disappointed by how little will we got these past seasons, a lot of people feel that way. at the end of the day i still think will is one of the most important characters and i think season five will reflect that but i still wish season three and four had been different in the will department. and i don't expect season five to make it up to me because it never will like seasons three and four will forever be like this! you can't convince me they couldn't have done them in a way that didn't accidentally reveal too early that he isn't gonna end up gay sad alone and dead for the crime of being gay or that he actually matters in the supernatural side of things you know.