#vecna lore theory

[henrycreelvecna]

Henry Creel, and his trauma.

How come so many people in this fandom completely ignore the scene where henry is literally being shocked by his peers and "papa". The main excuse for the ignoring is " he killed people " of course it doesn't excuse his actions entirely, but it makes it make sense.

In the boiler room scene, he clearly says to eleven; "you cannot hurt me more than they already have". This implies that its been going on since he was kidnapped by Brenner after the homicide. It's clear that Brenner barely saw Henry as a real human, more a lab rat. He probably treated the multiple children better due to it being more than one.

I totally believe Henry was telling the truth when he said Papa wanted to control. The children were so dehumanized, henry was the only one with a known name before being taken in as 001, then just being known as an orderly. 011 did have a name but she was never told it until she tried to learn about her mother in season 2. Basically these children weren't humans, but numbers.

This is basically dehumanization 101, especially relating to a specific event in the past Im not sure I can say. These children had a set life every single day down to the minute. It was like they were robots. Imagine how this was for a scared 12 year old who was kidnapped and alone.

The kids had no idea there was an outside world, Henry had first hand expirence and had that taken away from him, of course this was still bad for the children but can be REALLY damaging. Especially after planning on getting to your freedom, getting so close, and its taken away from you.

Now, back to the og topic, the shocking scene. Its implied this happened to Henry for TWO DECADES. When the duo was stopped in the hallway by guards, Henry although having powers looked terrified due to the tazer. He was ready to stop, and to leave.

As for the children, I don't have much opinions on their death. I have 3 theories on why henry killed them. 1, He wanted the children to be safe from brenner, but didn't believe in them as much as he did eleven. 2, He was scared of the children, what would it be an 18v1? idk. 3, He was using the power he gained from the gaurds, orderly, and childrens death to give Brenner the most painful death he could give him.

Anyways In conclusion, HENRY HAS TRAUMA. A LOT OF IT. No it does not excuse how he is a literal serial killer, but it helps us understand how and why he is in the first place. Nobody wakes up and decides to kill, they were harmed in some way that they became like that. Almost NOBODY is pure evil. I do not believe any of the people who watched this show even watched it tbh.

[cheesewritings]

It's Theory Time!

Okay so The Upside Down is basically a mirror dimension of Hawkins right? What else is a mirror dimension? The Shadowfell. In D&D lore, the Shadowfell is a mirror dimension of the physical plane. There's no color, landmarks are usually recognizable but altered in some way. It's often frequently subjected to small earthquakes, and lightning storms. Portals to the Shadowfell don't just appear, nor are they created by accident, they're intentionally made by very powerful magic. Any mortal who visits the Shadowfell is forever changed.

Now think about the Upside Down. Lightning storms, when it overtook Hawkins it was allegedly an earthquake. It's almost as if it's stuck in time, with recognizable landmarks that are significantly altered ("it's like she was made for another dimension") Portals are created intentionally via powerful magic.

And don't even get me started on the whole Vecna connection. Stay tuned for more

[castleclerics]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAA just realizing why the reason all the gates collide at the library is because all those newspapers from the different timelines are there and edward/vecna doesn't want people knowing that for whatever reason.... and will being brought there to die in 1983 because what if vecna was trying to open a gate at the library to destroy it but it failed since will was rescued....... and hhow elder brains are at the center of mindflayer cities made up of long-dead mindflayers' brains and are literally libraries of knowledge

and how after the gates colliding the library's clock didn't stop and it's definitely the "forever clock" and how many times they show close-ups of that godamn clock the entire series god i'm gonna pass out

[stfuhair]

bro if Dr. Brenner gave Kali her powers and her powers is illusions and she could even impersonate HIM, why couldnt he impersonate Henry? like im just saying you know

hes way too big of a bastard to not experiment powers on himself once hes sure that he wont die so..

[wibble-wobbegong]

rattling the inside of my skull line oooooo you wanna make under the influence about mike so bad oooooo

[theresa-thegalwhocriedrizz]

new byler gate alert!!!!!

(miniongate master post)

tw: i’ve got super bad grammar pls ignore it

may i introduce to u..! MINIONGATE!!!!!! the theory that ive just invented that mike wheeler and will byers are actually the henchmen of the so loved gru from the despicable me franchise!!! why do i think this? well, well, well, let me tell u!

first of all, their colors.

wowza!!! blue and yellow!!!! also for the fake minions fans, in minions the rise of gru our beloved kevin, bob and stuart fly to california (the west). blue and yellow meted in the west! whoopie!!!!!!!!!!

ok ok sooo second, minions r actually supa gay🤓gear me out!!!! there’s actually so many scenes where there are minions kissing or showing affection to each other (it’s very heart warming tbh) ei:

awwww🥺

anywho. third! so there’s this:

the minions r only stupid boys!!! mike and will believe it or not r boys also they’re stupid. visual aide⬇️⬇️⬇️

so, we’ve gone over why i think mike and will are minions. ‘now how does this relate to them smooching in the next season???’ u might be asking. well, i’m glad u asked!

alright, picture this. it’s the finale, right? everyone’s fighting whatever big bad there is, and will is being vecnaed (vecnaned? vecnaeded? vecneed???) or something. mike is by his side trying to break him out of the trance yk. vecna’s giving will all them horrible sad memories and wills like, “wa wah😭😭ily mike😭waaa i’m gay😢”. but then!!!! vecna shows will a memory that he doesn’t memeber, and will’s all confused. the memory is a minion with a bowlcut looking at a cute minion, and vecna does his scary voice over and he’s like, “mwaha😈😈😈hey bowlcut, do u ember this? heh”. and will’s like “who the flip re these minions???” vecna countinues his spooky voiceover “hah lmao stupid gay boy can’t even rember anything🤣ugh dumbo, this is when u lived with gru and michealminion😈” and then will stared remebeiing EVERYTHING!!! he membered when he was a minion and he kissed mikeminion🫢and when he helped steal the moon and doctor nefario died💔and all his other minion memories. AND THEN HE STARTED SHIMMERING😯😯😯and mike was like “erm what the sigma” so will did one of those magical girl transformations

this except it’s will byers turning into a minion. so now will is a minion, and mike is like “will why ru a minion🧐” and will catches him up on all the minion lore! and mike transforms into a minion as well. and theyre like woohoo we’re minions now, then they rember that vecans still being spooky. so they go in upside down using their minion powers. so they show up and r like “haha vecna henry 1 ur sooo ugly and stinky we dont like u😡” then mike and will use their epic gay minion powers and vecna dies🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🥳🥳🥳🥳🤩🤩🥳🥳🤩yippee! and now vecna is dead for ever! so u know what that means😏then byler gyat freaky🙁but not supa freaky they just kissed bcuz theyre 14-15 and some ppl needa get a grip🤗🤗also chappell roan started playing🫢and everything thing was right in the world cuz byler is canon!!!!!

anyways!!! thanks for reading!!!!!! let me know any of ur thoughts, theories, opinions on miniongate!!!! peace out

(⬆️art by @cmnzoq )

[willbyersabyss]

Will flickered the garage lights. Not a new statement I know, but he did... unintentionally. This is an expansion of my theory that Will changed time by travelling into the Wheeler house DND memory. When Will travelled into that memory, it not only altered the Upside Down and time there, but also messed with the electricity at the Wheeler house.

So we all know the DND game very obviously foreshadows Will's encounter with the demogorgon, ending with Will('s dice) going missing. Well what if the rest of that scene at the Wheeler house foreshadows events that follow directly after Will's disappearance?

Right after Will loses the dice, Karen tells the boys that they need to go home. Will losing the dice represents the moment he gets lost. Karen's line alludes to them losing track of time. So time may have been altered moments after Will disappeared.

Karen says that they can finish their game at another time. Mike says they can't because it will ruin the flow. The flow of time? This suggests that their DND game had a hand in altering the flow of time, perhaps in the Upside Down, so picking another date wouldn't be right. The time needs to be November 6th!

Ted is already up and messing with the TV that's having technical issues. Whatever caused the power to flicker already happened by the time Mike got upstairs. So it started during their DND game. Interesting.

We've already seen Will's relationship with the Upside Down mess with cameras and TVs. The camera originally filmed at 8:04 PM but when Joyce watched it on the TV, it says 8:15 PM. Once Will got transferred into the Upside Down during his vision, the camera started glitching. The Upside Down interfered with time here!

So the Wheeler's TV started glitching because Will was in the Upside Down, just like it did to the Halloween footage. Will is causing these glitches somehow.

Then Will leaves and the lights flicker, but only in the garage. The bedroom light upstairs and the front porch light stayed the same. If this was just a power outage because of lab shenanigans, the entire house would have flickered. We know lights flicker when someone in the UD walks under them, so this must be what's happening. Someone is on the other side. Vecna or... Will!

The lights flicker the second Will bikes out of the garage. This indicates that Will leaving Mike's garage is causing the flickering. Maybe he was leaving on the other side because he went back in time to this memory.

Mike is the one to turn the lights off after they flicker. Is this hinting at Mike being the one to solve the UD's time problem?

So why was Will leaving the Wheeler house so soon after altering the UD to look like that memory? He was being chased. This is the scene that we see after Will leaves. Dustin chases after Will and yells that he's going to kill him... interesting choice of words for sure! This represents Vecna going after Will on the other side.

What Dustin says here may even indicate why Vecna wants to take Will in the first place. "Race you back to my place" might hint that Vecna wanted Will to create the Creel house in the UD, so he chased him there until it formed. Will broke the barrier of the Wheeler house memory.

And then Will claims Dustin's X-Men 134 comic. This comic has a lot of information that clearly links to the lore of the show, most of which relates to El, but this section caught my eye. Mastermind, who I think represents Vecna, made Jean Grey believe she was time travelling, but it was all an illusion. So time travel is literally being brought up and correlated with Will right off the bat!

Here's the thing... Max didn't actually travel into a memory. We see El travel into multiple memories and she sees other people there. Max's skatepark memory and Billy's beach memory both still have people. So why does Max's Snow Ball "memory" have no people? The people she was with were the reason why that memory was happy, so shouldn't they be there?

Nope! You know what other place resembles Hawkins but notably has zero people? The Upside Down. Hm! So the UD is a memory of some sort, but not really the memory. It's an illusion of the memory. Maybe the big difference between El's true memory travel compared to Max's illusion is that what Max did can actually alter the UD and technology in the real world. I already have a post discussing this topic here!

Will did this too. That's why the Wheeler house is stuck on the day he went missing. It's his memory that was replicated there. When Will did this after being kidnapped, it messed with the electricity in the real world when the memory takes place. So the TV goes out along with the garage lights. Will was there, but in a memory!

[strawberrybyers]

ok looking at the new pic of will, i was looking at the drawing that was behind him, so i googled for a clearer image. it’s interesting to me how the drawing will has in castle byers is the party going up against some sort of dog?? which in season 2 there were demo dogs. in the next picture it’s a bear and it looks like people around it?? maybe the party?? but the bear could represent a demogorgon as it’s the big beast after them. but it had me thinking about the painting will gave mike…

i know there’s theories about dragons being in season 5, but i’m thinking that the dragon is symbolic. i feel like each head represents something. maybe one head is the mindflayer, the other vecna, and who is the 3rd?? will we find out who the 3rd head is in season 5?? or maybe the dragon symbolizes just the mindflayer to say that the mindflayer has multiple sources for its wrath?? or is it like ASOIAF and it represents a prophecy and will is a part of fulling that prophecy 👀 anyways, i decided to google the symbolism of a 3-headed dragon and look what i found…

the “shazki/byliny” being referred to as a human-like character with dragon-like traits… idk so maybe like vecna? dragons are described differently in each culture, but the most popular one is that dragons are intelligent, can communicate, and are evil.

in russia, dragons are represented as masters of weather or water source! very interesting about the water considering the questioning of where is water in the upside down… also, they are able to be romantically involved with humans!! hmm much to think about there in regards to henry and the creation of the other children at the lab (could the third head represent the lab??)… AND in russia, dragons are sometimes represented with 3 heads and is a man-like dragon who appears in russian. idk much to think about… i know dragons are a part of dungeons and dragons lore, but it is possible for the dragon in the painting to be symbolic of something more

[nadia-zahra]

st5 ramblings plus more

I've been wondering if anyone was talking ab how plausible time travel is for st5, and the first and only post I've seen about it was this really well done post by @endgamebyler. I'm just gonna add on to the crazy-train lol.

The first lines El has in st4 are this:

"Dear Mike, today is day 185. Feels more like ten years. Joyce says time is funny like that. Emotions can make it speed up or slow down. We're all time travelers if you think about it..."

Emotions can make time speed up or slow down

It makes ya wonder if Will's emotions the night he disappeared were so strong that it caused time to completely halt in the Upside Down, and that's why it's stuck on November 6, 1983.

And like if ya really think about it, how the fuck was Will to know he'd been in there for a week? There is no sense of time in the Upside Down, so for all we know he could've thought he'd only been in there for the night. Him thinking he'd only been in there for the night could also explain why time didn't continue moving with the seven days he'd been there.

Plus the st writers' posted this:

It makes a fuck ton of sense for time travel to be involved in st5 if it's supposed to tie Will's disappearance in 1983 and Vecna together. Maybe it'll be able to answer the questions of how tf Will got there in the first place if he didn't use a gate, why tf was Vecna seeking out Will at all, and why was El able to point Will out in the photo when they'd never met.

All of these questions are major plot points that had never been touched on-- maybe with st5 being a combo of st1 and st4 we will finally get some answers.

To rope in the flea and the acrobat for a sec, maybe the way it worked for Will was that he was so fucking scared and desperate for a way out that he accidentally traveled to the Upside Down with unknown powers instead of with a gate.

That's right, I'm tyin in the Will has powers theory cause believe it or not it makes fucking sense for Will to have the power of time control!

To further back up the idea that emotions are tied into Will's Disappearance lore and to Will having powers, EVERYONE who has powers in stranger things uses strong emotions to harness them-- what if Will was just unconsciously using his powers to stop time and escape (aka go into the Upside Down)?

This has already been touched on, but Will having the ability to control time would explain why Henry wanted him so freaking badly. Like the only people Henry didn't want to kill, but instead team up with, were Will and El. El has the power of going into the mind and opening/closing gates, and Will (probably) has the power of time control. If Henry was capable of either getting these two on his side or gaining them for himself, he would be unstoppable.

And think about it-- Vecna only goes after people who are extremely emotional because he thrives off of people's fear and emotions. What if he killed all those poor kids in st4 and in 1979 because they couldn't harness their emotions into powers he deemed valuable like El and Will can?

Furthermore: How did El lose her powers and Vecna gain them?

Well, obviously El was emotionally drained after everything she'd gone through within the last six years (yeah I'm starting with the mf rainbow room massacre) and she had to regain her emotional strength to get her powers back, but before she lost them Henry definitely didn't have the ability to just magically go into people's minds like we see him do in st4. He practically jumped Billy and had to possess him to gain control over his mind, so why tf didn't he have to do that with the other kids?

This is a stretch, but what if Vecna got a lil bit of El's power when that slug thing was in her. Seriously, after she had to manually rip it out from within her body, she lost her powers. That lil peice of Vecna did get squished by Hop, but it was still in there for long enough to cause some serious damage. Enough damage to make El lose her powers and give Vecna a taste atleast.

So to bring this post back to st5 time travel, let's speculate on how it's gonna come into play. They can't just randomly have Dustin or Nancy be like, "Oh no Vecna's back, looks like the only reasonable thing to do is use a wormhole!"-- like no they need an explainable reason why time travel's even involved. Personally, I think it's gonna be with Will needing to go back into the Upside Down and change the past.

Like what if those phone calls Joyce was getting from Will were actually 1986 Will trying to tell Joyce to go to the library or something while in the Upside Down, but he couldn't get in touch? What if he was trying to warn himself and Mike by flickering the lights outside the garage?

Will and Mike have been HEAVILY hinted at being the ones to stop Vecna *cough 20 cough*, but my brain is a lil too fried to add Byler onto this rn.

Point is, time travel is most likely happening it's just a matter of how and when.

[aemiron-main]

I understand that sooo many things point to time travel in s5, but I have a hard time believing that there's enough time and space to thoroughly and accessibly explore the concept of different timelines in the show. Different timelines will take a lot to explain, and we're just down to 1 season with sooo many characters to give endings to and plot lines to close out already.

I know you and others have picked up on a lot that might be pointing to different timeline stuff, but it's not often big, obvious stuff that the GA have picked up on. Time travel with references in dialogue and the clocks and Nancy's diary, yes, but the timeline theories are very complicated, and there just seems like a lot to fit in with everything else.

Do you have an idea of how it could all be fit in and explained in a way that could be accessible for the GA? That's my major stress with the timeline theories. different Henry's and Edward and multiple versions of the Rainbow Room, like I see your vision and it's really interesting but have a hard time translating that in my head to how it could fit into s5 on screen.

Like what are the themes attached to the idea of multiple timelines? What's the purpose of it, fitting into the existing themes we already pick up on from s1-s4? How does it mesh with what we already have? What is the reason behind exploring that instead of focusing on our main characters? What does it add as far as storytelling that can't already be shown through the party or the older teens or adults that we've known for several seasons already?

And why not make it more obvious in s4? Bc I really do admire how much you've done looking into those blurry ass newspapers, but why wouldn't they plant more seeds for the GA (who aren't combing over the show and those screenshots like a lot of us are on tumblr) to prevent the idea of Edward and multiple Henry's and Virginia's, etc, to not feel like it comes out of left field for the GA?

Those are just some of my thoughts and questions about it all! I'd love to hear your thoughts!

How Does Timeline Theory Stuff Tie Into Other Events In ST and How Does It Tie Into The Themes of ST and How Are The Duffers Going To Pull It Off Without Blindsiding the GA?

YES!!!!!! Hello, anon! I totally understand your concerns, but I actually think that they've set it up in a really great way where it's going to explain a lot of major plot points/gates, and is also going to be tied to the lore of the UD & how it was created (something that the duffers have said that they're definitely exploring in S5 & that there's a LOT left to be revealed about the UD in s5. These are all great questions, let's get into them! So, first of all, what other major plot points is timeline stuff going to help resolve?

Birthdaygate I don't think that people actually forgot Will's birthday. I think that his birthday is likely on a different day and we're seeing two different timelines. Especially with the Duffers joking about making his birthday May 22nd? I think that March 22nd birthday Will and May 22nd birthday Will likely both exist, and that we're either seeing two cmpletely different timelines in S2 vs S4, or Will has switched timelines, or characters like Joyce have switched timelines. One of the biggest criticisms of birthdaygate is "since when does Vecna have the power to make people forget things, and WHY would he do that?" and I AGREE with that crticism. Because I don't think Vecna specifically erased his birthday memories/the memories of others, I think it's far more likely tied to timeline weirdness, especially because in Edward's timeline, the Creel murders happened on Will's March 22nd birthday, making it a significant date for Edward. Edward, who very very likely has TIME-related powers considering that it seems to be Edward who we saw turning back that clock with his mind, and all the imagery of grandfather clocks etc. He’s not erasing memories, he’s messing with time and dates and timelines.

Will's Vanishing I have no doubt that the timeline stuff is tied to Will's vanishing. He's literally dressed like Marty McFly on the night he disappears. Hell, Vecna's grandfather clock was behind Will on the night he vanished. We also here a clock sound when his bike falls, and we hear a clock ticking when El pokes the demogorgon in the void.

We also see two different Wills on the night he vanished, which I've been calling "warm Will" and "cool Will" based on the colour grading. TLDR warm Will is much younger looking whereas Cool Will's hair is longer and he looks more exhausted and is physically older and looks like the vision of Will that Joyce saw when laying on the couch. And two different UD versions of Castle Byers. I'd need to dig and find my poster about this from forever ago, but we get two scenes of Will in the UD in castle byers (one where El finds him in the void and one where we see him singing "should I stay or should I go" to himself) And to top it all off, there's two conflicting articles about his vanishing that seem to be the SAME ARTICLE from different timelines, it's not just two totally separate articles in the same timeline presenting different stories, it's physically the same article with the same title, the same picture, and the same author, just with different content (one of the articles, the one from S1, claims that Will was found as a test subject at Hawkins Lab and that Richard Brenner was running the Narcotics Division, whereas the other article, from S2, claims that Will was found in a cabin in the woods)

There's also the weirdness regarding "how did Joyce and Hopper get out of the UD but more importantly, out of HNL?" And how were they allowed to take him to a normal hospital? HNL was prepared to straight up murder Hopper, and Brenner was convinced that they wouldn't escape the UD. So how did they? We never see them come out of the gate, and we never see them come out of HNL. How did they get through all of the keycard-locked rooms in HNL? But if they simply broke into HNL and took Will out of there, and THAT'S the Will we see at the hospital? In the sense that the Will we saw in the UD with Joyce is a different timeline entirely than the Will at the hospital? It would explain some things for sure, especially considering that the S1 newspaper articles straight up says that Joyce found him as a test subject at HNL. Because as we saw with Terry, breaking into HNL and grabbing a child from the first level and getting out, is much easier than getting out from the bottom floors/UD gate area, especially since there's those guarded/locked hazmat suit areas. And HNL would never have let them go to a normal hospital. It's all extremely weird, and definitely tied to timeline stuff, imo.

How The Blue UD Was Created I talked in this post about the rooms and walls in the Creel house magically changing in certain scenes/retellings, and how I won't be surprised if the Creel house that has the green wallpaper in that one scene during the Massacre At Hawkins Lab Creel house sequences is the Creel house that's currently the UD. We have all of these references to the UD being a "parallel universe," and all of the time references to it, so I won't be surprised if the UD was once a regular timeline, and something happened to it. Like, this house:

And this house:

Are likely physically the same house in the same timeline. And it would tie into explaining why and how the UD looks like Hawkins- because it is. It's just Hawkins in another timeline, a parallel version of Hawkins, a concept that has been referenced in the show since S1.

How Brenner Survived The S1 Demogorgon Attack Brenner should not have survived that S1 demogorgon attack in Hawkins Middle School. It chewed on his face. And we see demogorgons kill prisoners in S4 in half the time that the S1 demogorgon was gnawing on Brenner. That man should not be alive. But maybe he isn't. After all, we have references to both a Martin and a Richard Brenner- maybe one of them died and the other one is the one we see in S4. And even if he did survive, HOW? Timeline theory stuff is very easily connected to this, especially with all the strange parallels between Henry and Edward vs Martin and Richard and the idea of time loops etc and that being tied to Brenner's survival/timeline manipulation allowing him to not have died in S1. What Henry/Edward Was Doing When He Turned Back That Clock?

We literally watched Henry/Edward turn back a clock with his mind onscreen while ranting in 1979 about the constraints of time and escaping said constraints. And we got no explanation for what the outcome of that scene was/what he was doing, and we got no explanation why he was turning back the clock in 1959/what prompted it. We still don't know WHY the grandfather clock is significant to Vecna either. Timeline theory stuff is ABSOLUTELY going to tie into this.

It also answers even MORE questions than this, but hopefully that gives you a base idea of just how connected timeline stuff is to the major unresolved questions and plot points of ST. IMO, timeline theory stuff answers more questions than it creates because the ST team has been very careful about making sure that all of these things are intertwined.

And as far as themes go, with all of the time loop stuff that's referenced in ST, that ties perfectly into the themes regarding the cycle of abuse in ST, and people struggling to escape a time loop much like how it's difficult to escape the cycle of abuse and ALSO difficult to prevent it from repeating.

I think it's also narratively powerful in the sense that it shows us just how differently things could have turned out for people if they'd made one small, different choice, how people like Henry or Edward end up differently based on how their family interacts with them, especially with Mr Clarke's reference to "a timeline where none of this awful stuff ever happened," there's defiinitely a powerful message there about how seemingly small decisions impact peoples' lives, and the cycle of abuse and how people don't realize the impact they're making on other people until it's too late. It brings up the question of nature vs nurture and to what extent a person's circumstances affect who they'll grow up to be, and how differently peoples' lives could have turned out based on minor changes.

You also mentioned "what's the point of exploring that (timeline stuff) instead of exploring our main characters?" to which I say: the two aren't mutually exclusive. They're very much intertwined, exploring things like Will's connection to Edward/Henry, and what actually happened with Will's vanishing, exploring things like "why is the Wheeler family dynamic the way that it is and why does it mirror the Creels so much?" (see: Karen being Daughter-Virginia from the Edward timeline), etc, so I very much think that timeline theory is tied to exploring the characters because one of the core things that makes time weirdness in ST work is the way that the Duffers have approached it from the start- time travel/multiple timelines ISN'T going to be an easy way of just fixing things at the last minute- instead, it's been making things more difficult and complex since the beginning. So, the timeline weirdness has been affecting who these characters are, and how we've come to know them, and how they behave, and how their lives have been/what they've experienced, so it's fundamentally tied to exploring who they are and why they're the way that they are.

You also asked : "And why not make it more obvious in s4? Bc I really do admire how much you've done looking into those blurry ass newspapers, but why wouldn't they plant more seeds for the GA (who aren't combing over the show and those screenshots like a lot of us are on tumblr) to prevent the idea of Edward and multiple Henry's and Virginia's, etc, to not feel like it comes out of left field for the GA?

To which I say: first of all, thank you <33, second of all, how much more obvious can it be? Go to almost any ST comment section or ST youtube video search or GA-written article theorizing on ST, and there's CONSTANTLY people talking about the idea of time travel in ST

Like seriously, Will is dressed like Marty McFly the first time we see him, Back to the Future is playing in S3 in the movie theatre and we specfically hear lines from it about time travel and literally watch scenes from Back to the Future during ST, there's constant references to movies like the Bill and Ted movies, there's CONSTANT CLOCKS, LIKE SERIOUSLY, THE CLOCKS IN S4 ARE NEVERENDING, AND WE LITERALLY WATCHED EDWARD/HENRY TURN A CLOCK BACKWARDS WITH HIS MIND!!! I don't know how much more obvious they can be about time travel references, genuinely, like we literally had an entire letter speech from Hopper in S3 about "turning back the clock," and then also literally watched Henry/Edward physically turn a clock backwards while monologuing about escaping the constraints of time. There's so, so, so many references to time and time travel and timeline weirdness in the show, and not just "super tiny easter egg refrences,' but literally stuff like Back to the Future literally playing on screen, and Nancy saying outloud "your timeline is wrong," and Edward/Henry ranting about time and Hopper wanting to turn back the clock etc etc, it's all stuff that you literally Cannot Miss if you even do a surface level watch of the show! (also my caps here are just Excited ranting, not annoyed <3) And also, most importantly, because all of those things I mentioned earlier, like birthdaygate and the weirdness surrounding Will's vanishing and how it isn't resolved and how the UD was created, are ALL things that the GA has picked up on, even if they don't know the ins and outs of full analysis on it, they understand basic concepts such as "Will's birthday was forgotten," even if they think it's just a production error. They understand that the UD hasn't been fully explained yet, they understand that we haven't gotten the full explanation for Will's vanishing yet. And so, timeline stuff is going to tie into the answers to all THOSE questions.

And even regarding Edward SPECIFICALLY, look at how many GA people are picking up on the references to Eddie "Edward" Munson returning in S5, and the fact that Edward Munson's missing poster parallels Wil's missing poster scene and the fact that Eddie's age is inaccurate on it. The GA is picking up on a lot of the "something is going on with Eddie" stuff, but they just don't quite realize that Edward Munson is meant to deliver subtext about Edward Creel, which is something that is going to be revealed to them in S5, and something that they'll be able to understand, because they'll be like "OHHH, that's why everything seemed so weird about Eddie/why we thought he didn't die, a lot of that was meant to be referencing THIS edward, okay!"

But yeah! I'd absolutely say that the GA is aware of time travel references in ST. I actually think they're more open to the idea than a lot of byler tumblr is LMAO. I hope that helps explain my thoughts! And for me, at the end of the day, even if I couldn't see how it tied into the story, the evidence is there, and so, I feel like even if we don't fully know how that evidence fits into the story, the Duffers definitely do.

For example, imagine telling someone in S1 that all of the clock imagery in S1 was going to be tied to some guy named Henry Creel who shows up in S4! Imagine telling someone in S2 about Starcourt Mall and a secret russian base under Hawkins and how it was going to work narratively.

[steddieas-shegoes]

Can I ask what Kas!Eddie means? I’ve come across it a lot but I’ve never found a post explaining,, like I get it’s vampire Eddie but yeah what is Kas??

Oh my friend!!! Let me just be totally honest, I’m not gonna be able to give you a well rounded answer so I hope someone does.

I have never played D&D and really only learned what was necessary to know what the hell the kids and Eddie were talking about in the show. My best friend is showing me and Liam how to play someday but my brain heard math and said “😬😬😬 you can do the math for me tho right” and that’s been that.

But shortly after the end of season 4, everyone was like “we’ve done this before, Eddie isn’t dead” and came up with a bunch of theories (all of them very interesting, though many were extremely unlikely). The one that stuck around the most is that he’s coming back as Kas the Bloody Handed. In a very uneducated nutshell, Vecna turns him into his ultimate weapon (a master of puppets if you will 👀) for the creatures of the upside down. But in the lore, Kas turns on Vecna in order to gain his power, kills him with a sword I don’t know the name of but it’s like the Ultimate Sword of Vengeance or something.

He’s basically a vampire that’s got upside down creature tendencies. Not a cute vampire by any means, way WAY less human than what fiction has always given us for examples of vampires.

I hope this helps a bit! Again, I don’t know everything here, I just know what little I need to understand the theories! If anyone wants to add or correct me, please feel free!

[dinitride-art]

Possessiongate - the monologue/Mike Wheeler got got (pt.1)

This now lives in my head rent free. Current theory is that Vecna attached himself to Mike somehow before he left Hawkins and has been fighting for control the entirety of season four- and that Mike’s been able to have some control because Will is his light. Vecna was described during the Hellfire game as being recognizable by his missing left eye and left hand. Important to also note that these are actually magical artifacts in D&D- I think they were both introduced in first edition before Vecna was even introduced into the lore/as a thing you could fight. 

Yes I am starting yet another analysis of season four that I don’t know how many parts it will have- but I have a feeling its going to end up being stupidly long. Just like the Lighting analysis. 

S4:E2 - Rink O’ Mania (Why Mike’s such a dick?)

Before I get into the whole Rink O’ Mania mess I noticed something during the airport scene. 

Mike’s hiding his eyes. First it was with the sunglasses, and now it’s with the visor thing. I don’t have a picture on hand, but the shot of Mike asking about the painting sticks out to me. He’s very weird when he sees Will for the first time, caught completely off guard. It’s actually reminding me of, “he’s... my friend” or whatever Will says about Mike when he recognizes him when Will’s possessed. The Mind flayer/Vecna (up for debate who’s controlling who) knows who Mike and Joyce are. They also know who Will and El are, quite well. Vecna’s target this season was actually El- he wants her to look at him while he destroys everything. He wants someone to fight against. 

I think that Mike might’ve been so weird when he saw Will because it through Vecna for a loop. Like, oh fuck there he is. The guy that can sense me. Or maybe he just wanted to fuck with Will. Because there is no reason that Mike should be weird around Will, yeah sure he knows he loves him at the end of season three but he was able to hug him goodbye. Twice, even.

Another thing I think might be happening here- that I’m more inclined to think this is- is that Mike is caught off guard when he sees Will because Will is his light. Who knows how long Vecna might have been in Mike’s head (I think it was the night the Chrissy gate opened- or that he’s been trying to get to Mike the whole time that the Byers have been away and just now is able to because of the open gate). But what if Will can snap him out of it and bring Mike back to being fully in control? Like, I don’t think Mike knows yet that Vecna’s in his head. But I think that Vecna knows that Will can snap Mike out of it and that’s why he’s getting Mike to keep his distance/ignoring Will all day. And not mentioning Will’s birthday just to fuck with him- because Vecna knows when Will’s birthday is. He learnt that info like two years ago in the Byers shed. And he also learnt how much Mike cares about Will and vise versa. 

So, if Vecna’s using Mike as a way to mess with El and Will- and as a spy- then he also knows how to keep Mike in line. And why he’s keeping Mike away from Will when something happens that fucks with El.

Also they’re mirroring each other here like theyr were in the monologue. Which could be saying that season 2 and Will’s possession is paralleling Mike’s season four possession. 

This isn’t as strong but thought I’d mention it anyways- Mike and Will are paralleling each other again with both positions in shot and their shoe sizes. But also 10 is very clear on both of their skates- and not on El’s. We’re focusing on Mike and Will’s skates and it’s weird that 10 is the number below 11, yeah, but it’s also weird that it’s kinda just 1. So it might be saying that hey! One’s here! And he’s been in both Mike AND Will’s heads!

I’ve mentioned before that there’s an unnecessary focus on Will- and that Mike’s line, “you were rolling your eyes and moping” and basically narrating what we see above is proof that Mike’s been looking at him the whole time. Also the lighting difference on Will’s face. But we don’t get to see Mike looking at Will- which might make sense if Vecna’s not letting him talk to Will. 

This shot- the disco ball that I now forgive but still feel really oblivious for not noticing it sooner- love you Rink O’ Mania disco ball. Anyways, it parallels the snow ball disco ball in season two where there’s an overwhelming theme of forced conromity and pink and blue and then parallels it again when Max gets...fucking hell, when Max GEts Vecna’D. Jesus Christ when will it end. So, I’ll add that to the ‘Vecna’s definitely in Mike’s head’ proof. ANYWAYS- as I was saying, the disco ball is drawing our attention to Will. And we know that Mike’s been paying attention to Will the whole time, but this makes it really clear.

It’s also why I think that Will being lit like this, and being positioned like this, are all saying that Will is Mike’s light. And that’s why Vecna hasn’t been able to fully take over Mike when he’s in Cali- also because he’s just really far away from Hawkins. And again, Mike’s visor is hiding his eyes. 

Okay so El’s holding Mike’s left hand here which- welp. Uh, maybe is possibly referencing Vecna again. But these two shots are also paralleling the Snow Ball again, but instead of Mike being alone- it’s Will. And it’s also showing how we see Will a lot AND that he’s in front of light A  LOT.

This disco ball is also really ominous as an opening shot. So like the tone of this scene is weird. It’s meant to be both happy, miserable, weird and forboding. Or at least that’s what I’m kinda getting from it- also looks a hell of a lot like the snowball again. Really bad signs all over this place

This shot is kinda creepy to me too. It looks like- actually Ive got a picture of this on hand, nice-

it looks like the mind flayer, just a bit. The long legs and the weirdly shaped head.

Also, the red brick makes reminds me of the red setting of the destroyed Creel house. Because there are quite a few settings in episode nine that are either red of blue- surfer boy pizza and the Creel house (mind edition) are red, and the Creel house (real), the Creel house (upside down) and the prison are all very blue or somewhat blue toned. The colour of the mind flayer (and Vecna) is red. The upside down is blue. So, I’m thinking that colour theory is at work here- with these specific colour associations. Mike also drinks from both his and El’s cups with red straws. And there’s no water in the upside down so maybe they want water y’know?

This is where it starts. Just barely. The red straw in shot is also pointing to Mike and visible when we look at Will. So Mike and El are placed in from of blue and red lights. Similar to the monologue with Mike and Will being in front of blue and red lights. When Angela roles up to the table she’s wearing two watches. On her left wrist no less. Time, clocks, Mike and Will’s matching watches, what’s about to happen with Mike’s left eye- Vecna’s at play here. 

You see how Mike turns to look at El and his left eye gets a veil of dark shadow around it? Are yo seeing that shit? Like, Mike should know what’s going on here. He’s literally been bullied his whole life. He should know what’s happening. But he completely ignores it. 

The light is shining on Will here again, because there’s some Vecna related shit going down with Mike and I think Mike’s trying to use Will as a way to ground himself. Blue and yellow lights behind Will also point to this. Mike was the person who Will relied on in season two to get back to himself. At the arcade- which parallels Rink O’ Mania in colours- with the strip of yellow and blue lights there as well (but they’re flipped/upside down in relation to each other. blues on top of yellow here- and yellow’s on top of blue at the arcade). But also when Will goes outside and sees the Upside Down (and the blue lights) the colour of the lightning bolt outside changes from yellow to green when Mike comes out and gets him- breaking him from the trance. 

I think that the very same thing is happening her. But now it’s Mike instead of Will who needs to break out of the trance. 

And when Mike and El are in this shot? It’s pretty different than the one before, sure the lightings gotten a bit more sinister but with Mike’s left eye it’s a bit excessive. The literal whites of his eyes are darker than before- like significantly. Where as with El it’s not nearly as jarring.

Mike’s left eye stays in the dark even as the shot pans out. He’s also sipping his drink again and the fact that it has a red straw and Mike’s in front of red brick and there’s a red light directly over him? I am so very suspicious. 

AND WHEN MIKE GETS UP???? His left eye is like this still. It’s creepy. And exactly like the damn monologue. And Mike should have known El isn’t in a good situation here, he and all of his friends have been in situations like this forever. But the yellow and blue I think is a good thing- I think it’s signaling Mike talking back control. Even if he might not be aware what’s happening.

And just to show Will because Mike’s face is just so different. Despite them being in the same amount of light/facing the same light source, Will’s left eye isn’t ominously darkened like an evil is looking through and waiting for an opportunity to strike, y’know?

But here’s the thing

Mike and Will are kind of arguing and Mike’s face is all scrunched up (similar to how it was in the monologue). And Will’s glowing as per usual this season.

And then Mike snaps out of it. Staring at Will’s lips, yes, but also because Will is his light. Talking to Will changes Mike’s whole expression- and this is similar to how Mike looked at the airport when he saw Will. He looks confused and kind of surprised ish.

And then we see Mike LOOKING at Will. And Will’s in the light, and Mike’s still not, but we see him looking at Will. And the green, yellow and blue neon lights are behind him. That S also kinda looks just a bit like a lightning bolt.

And after talking to Will? His face starts going back to normal. Like immediately after. And then Mike goes and tries to stop what’s happening but he’s too late.

So, what if Vecna and Mike have been fighting over control this whole time- or maybe Vecna’s just been influencing Mike to do shit and Will keeps getting in the way? Like Mike did in season 2? 

The parallels to season two and Will being possessed are paralleling so hard right now. This is the second scene that Mike’s been like this- the other one I looked at being the monologue. Like?? What was the reason for Mike’s eye to be like this twice? (probably more than that but I gotta make different posts for those- I’ll get back to ya’ll on that)

Vecna won’t leave Mike and Will the fuck alone. 

1 2 3 

[cheesewritings]

The Kas Theory

Alright guys strap in because it’s time to talk about my favorite recent theory. And before you gather your torches and pitchforks and try to run me out of town, listen. I don’t think Eddie is Kas I think he has a different role.

Kas betrayed Vecna BEFORE he ascended to demigod status. If we’re looking at betrayals before Henry became Vecna, we need to look at Eleven.

Eleven is the one who banished Henry to the Upside Down. In D&D lore, when Vecna failed to ascend to full deity status, he was then banished to Cavitius which then freed Kas. (When Eleven banished Henry ole boy was on some weird ass power trip and she was freed from the lab if I remember correctly).

So basically I’m getting the more Eleven is Kas thoughts and I have another theory regarding Eddie that will come out soon.

Reblog with your thoughts!

[emblazons]

hELLO do you have any fun specific hopes/theories/headcanons for st5?

HELLO STRANGER 😂

Honestly I am not like super headcanon forward as a watcher because I think I have expectations trust issues from other television and therefore stick to what I can see on screen before speculating, BUT!

Headcanons + some things I would love to see explored (that aren’t just aggressive amounts of pining byler)?

The whole “Will is suppressed in his queerness being attached to soteria/suppression of powers” is like. 11/10 concept imo. It goes along with horror history so well (shout out @pinkeoni for that analysis) and plays so well into the whole relating to “Alan Turing” bit that we were introduced to start of S4, given his history as a gay man.

re, the last point: the contrast in queerness between Mike and Will being explored as someone who shows more blatant attraction to men but struggles to accept it as an identity versus someone who accepts their identity while suppressing their attraction (by outside forces or not) is also a dynamic I think would be cool to explore. I am not an ace Will truther at all but. I do think he shies away from his own sexuality a lot in a way they don’t do with Mike.

I really want “samfro caught on mount doom together while the rest of the fellowship fights an army” byler vibes—something about El and Lucas as Aragorn & Legolas with Dustin (Gimli) and Erica (Merry/Pippin) while Will struggles with feeling alone carrying the heavy burden of a connection to Vecna? Some “I can’t carry it for you, but I can carry you” heroism from Mike? El getting a moment to reunite with Max (Arwen) at the hand of Lucas, just like in Return of the King? Fucking mint lmao

I need scenes of Max in whatever place she’s still alive in like I need oxygen. Working from “the inside” to do exposition on Henry + the UD while she’s in a coma while the party sorts through it in Hawkins feels like such a phenomenal writing opportunity I’ll be desperately sad if they don’t explore it. I hope they include some elements of like. The duality of presence a la The Talisman in that given Lucas was reading it to her in the hospital? But 🤷🏽‍♀️

GIVE ME TIME FKERY OR GIVE ME DEATH. I know it’s pretty much guaranteed at this point but. I need Mr. Clarke back stat, with some convoluted ass theory explained on a paper plate again. I need the most elaborate UD reality just, absolutely borderline nonsensical lore for like a full episode so I can watch this series back again and see it from SECOND ONE (or minute 8:15) and giggle like a schoolgirl knowing the duffers really are smart/the haters were wrong.

I want more Wheelers! I know Nancy is central to the supernatural given she was the only other one pulled in by Vecna and not killed—just sent as a messenger—but. I have so many Wheeler and Creel thoughts at this point I don’t know where to start, but. They are the PERFECT family for exploring picture-perfection against horror themes (just like the Creels) and I want it. Like “don’t care how, I want it now” level focus on them, along with their Byers.

I said it before but: an exploration of motherhood as a theme makes so much sense to me, and it seems to be important to The Duffers too, so. I want it.

Kinda want RoVickie as the couple who introduces the idea of the supernatural + queerness v Hawkins element at the start of the season, and for byler to be the ones who “end it.” I think that would be a fascinating way to parallel them more, though…I haven’t much thought this through.

If they don’t make Finn Wolfhard sob his little eyes out this season I’m going to feel betrayed. I need him like. Noah level pressed at least once next season, for the culture (Finn said he wanted to do more dramas. Let him defeat the bad actor allegations here so they let him LMAOOOO)

That’s all I can think of for now! I’m sure there are more, but. Those were the firsts that came to mind haha.

Thanks for the ask!

[bugsbenefit]

more tfs thoughts, really just trying to recontextualize some show lore with what seems to be established in the play

SPOILERS ahead

yada yada you know

1.) so with Henry getting his powers from his encounter in dimension X this could potentially explain the "Will has powers" angle - with a: no one expect the lab kids (that were created via Henry's ?blood?, so via the help of someone who already had powers) was actually born with them, with Henry only having powers post his encounter and acting differently, presumably possessed/influenced by the MF to some degree. which Will was as well in the UD and up to the end of s2. it's possible that with the MF particles being expelled by the end of s2 impacted him to some degree, but he still seems to have some sort of connection remaining at least, in form of the neck thing

2.) also the "vecnaing" powers coming from the MF is interesting because now there's at least the possibility that Will in s2 could have killed people that way too, with having parts of the MF literally inside him. which is honestly, really horrifying but also kind of funny. maybe it was really Really good they knocked him out and didn't find out after all. also raises the question to me if Vecna himself also/still has parts of the MF in himself (and if that's even a requirement to "vecna" someone or if that just works via letting the MF do it's thing or asking it really nicely, or maybe it just really Gave Vecna that power to do it whenever he wants who knows

3.) also with Patty being almost guaranteed to come back, i'd say she's most likely Mrs Kelley. introducing a whole new character would be a questionable move, especially with Patty's caliber. and there have been theories about Mrs Kelley being somehow connected to Vecna since July 2022. with all the Vecna victims visiting her, them trying to find literal keys in her home, and her weird clock-key necklace that's SO specific in the season about the "wizard obsessed with clocks" guy

i think the most interesting place to take that though is if she's Patty and she has been helping/watching what's been up with Vecna instead of just being out of the loop and then being filled in in s5 and swooping in to help. if she's just used in s5 to help save the day and appeal to Vecna's humanity... i don't know how well that would work, especially with Patty and their whole backstory only existing in the play. it would feel weird at best, to me at least. if they made her more morally gray and didn't use her as, essentially, a tool, there would be something interesting there. but. hm, idk if they'll go there

4.) also, the whole boat backstory is kind of cool to me in a way. the original show bible mentions spontaneous vanishings so that turning up in the canon lore now is fun to me. also seems like something that will play into s5. with s4s main tag line about "Hawkins will fall" and the whole concept about the UD becoming a stronger influence over Hakwins (via Nancy's vision, bts interviews, the show bible as well) the idea of the whole town or bigger sections of the town or buildings/people could literally being at risk of "falling into" or merging with the UD in some form is something i was expecting for for s5. which seems backed up with where the play is taking the UD lore. could also be a potential source for cool sets/visuals for s5 if we get merged areas with a desolate UD and a building that's definitely not supposed to be there, or the other way around. i feel like they could do some interesting things with that

5.) and that coming with the by-product of apparently giving Brenner dead-daddy issues is kind of funny. no comment there. the guy who calls himself Papa and is defined in the show by his freakish relationship to his "kids" having daddy issues IS just funny

6.) also, small point, but Allan Munson apparently not having a big role and being very similar to Eddie... i'm shaking my fist, will these people ever stop riding the Eddie Munson wave 😭

[untitled-byler-blog]

because it’s a Hot Topic in the tag right now I’m gonna throw in my own opinion

disclaimer: I’m not saying this to dismiss anyone’s theories -- s5 is in pre-production, cards are on the table, and people are entitled to whatever opinions they want on what will happen; this is mine:

(lol this wasn’t supposed to turn into a full analysis post, yet here we are)

I think the Mind Flayer is going to be the Big Bad in season 5

HOWEVER

I saw someone say how this would undermine the idea that “just a man” could be capable of great evil that came with the Vecna/Henry reveal, but I think both ideas can coexist:

So I know things change and develop as new seasons are written, but I am still very much hung up on the Duffers referring to the motherfucker MF as “sentient”

I think that the MF was chilling in his dimension, minding his own business; then Henry rolls up and is like “hey I’m gonna manipulate you into this spider shape and make you do my bidding” but if the MF is Sentient that means it let Henry do that

It was something new, intriguing; and through Henry’s pursuit of revenge on the human race or whatever, It thought “i’m gonna follow this guy, see where it takes me” and then go from there.

re: s2 whilst the MF had possessed Will (at Vecna’s behest) Vecna had pre-established his connexion with Will in s1, not through the possession directly. Then, by season 3, with Vecna working to give the MF a physical form in the upside-right, the MF started to make its own sort of plan.

Vecna got gutsy in s4, and I think the MF thought Vecna would fail (note, s4 is the first time since its introduction that we don’t see the MindFlayer except for flashbacks) so now It has decided to make It’s move.

Now that Vecna has shown himself to be defeatable, the MF is going to move in in s5 to take over. 

“But what about the ‘just a man’ metaphor”

An interesting thing of note in DnD lore is that Mind Flayers are only capable of interpreting negative human emotions and they feed on human brains; so my theory for s5 is that the MF is going to fully consume Vecna, taking him over (additional henry/will parallel, if you will). Mind Flayers are self-serving beings; It never would have allowed Vecna to manipulate It if It thought there was nothing to gain from it.

Thus, this take over is a metaphor for what we’ve already begun to see in Henry: the dehumanisation that comes with all-consuming negative emotions. Whilst the MF itself is the Big Bad, the one ultimately trying to bring about the end of the world be the MF, but just as a symbolic representation of the Downfall of Mankind – Henry being fully consumed by his quest for power and destruction.

another note is that a MF can be weakened by the Host brain partially surviving, so, if this does happen, I think the key to bringing him down will be trying to tap back into Henry’s humanity; not necessarily to redeem him, but in acknowledgement of what he had become: a monster – paradoxically proving that El is not a Monster (which was a recurring theme in s4): she could have ended up like Him, but she didn’t.

Tl;dr The MF (in my opinion) will be (literally but not metaphorically) the Big Bad of s5, but up until now it has been Henry calling the shots.

Like I said, this wasn’t supposed to turn into a full analysis so sorry if it makes no sense !!!