#14x19 meta

[soullessjack]

actually i think Jack’s whole psychotic meltdown after killing Mary makes a lot more sense when you remember that this was one of his worst fears:

i don’t have the exact scripts but suffice it to say, this is not the first time michael has insinuated that jack is his only equal/match/rival in terms of power, and it’s also not the first time he’s insinuated that jack would simply outgrow his sense of humanity and turn on everyone that he’s claimed as family; the fact that jack is even human to begin with is more or less a glitch in the system to all other angels. it’s “just a phase.”

and then on Jack’s response, all it says is that he doesn’t want to admit it could be possible. i feel like in most other scenarios like this, where the Hero has some connection to the Villain that’s used against them, the Hero usually just dispels the Villain’s claim of connection with some easy shit like “you’re wrong! i have confidence in myself to stay by my friend’s sides forever!” the villain is then defeated and the hero’s connection to them (and all that implies) is never brought up again. but here, with jack and michael, jack is clearly doubtful of his own humanity—I mean, he has been for a while, he’s just afraid to admit it to anyone because it holds too much risk of losing everyone he cares about.

jack has pretty much dedicated his life to proving that he isn’t evil, that he is trustworthy and safe and that he isn’t like Lucifer. however, while he and Mary are in apocalypse world you also get the sense that he now has to prove he isn’t like Michael—despite them being equals. but his dedication and determination are very much rooted in/responsive to fear, not just of losing everyone he loves, but for his True Nature to ultimately be evil and of his father.

so, of course killing his mother figure causes jack to spiral out of control and into psychosis, because he hardly understands what’s happened—he’s literally debating whether or not he intended to kill Mary while at Rowena’s flat—and he’s very jarringly faced with the potential reality that he had finally lost humanity and turned on everyone just as Michael had said.

and despite his literal subconscious telling jack that he’s as good as fucked, he can’t come back from this and he can’t call the Winchesters or the Bunker his home ever again, he obsessively tries to fix it and desperately denies that he could have actually wanted Mary dead or intentionally hurt her (remember he tells Rowena he just wanted her to “be quiet”) because how is he ever supposed to be seen as trustworthy again after possibly-deliberately hurting Mary (and later with Duma, the “nonbelievers”) when the entire reason he wasn’t trusted to begin with was the fact that everybody saw him as something dangerous/truly evil and merely choosing not to act on his true nature, and now if he can’t fix it, then he’s inevitably back in the pigeonhole of a dangerous monster, and Michael was right.

[restlesshush]

People talk about how refridging Mary to make Dean want to kill Jack in the soulless Jack arc was a really shitty thing to do, and it was, but the thing is I don’t think that’s even quite what happened, writing-decision-wise. Refridging Mary is not only not necessary for the soulless Jack arc to work, it also actively makes it less effective as a storyline, specifically in ways that seem to clash with what was otherwise being set up. Which makes it look like they didn’t kill her to serve their plot, given they actively made their story worse by writing her out.

(Edit: I’m not going to speculate as to what was going on with Sam Smith because I don’t know, but approx 1400 words under the cut about what I think was happening writing-wise)

Anyway so this is all based on an initial theory from @autisticandroids (who also asked me to write this post, hi!) that the way Mary’s death was handled makes it look like the sort of character death that happens because of an actor having to be written out, rather than one the writers really wanted to do otherwise. And once you’re primed to be thinking about this, 14x18 especially does really come off as the show scrambling to try and make her death hit, which is sort of the opposite of what fridgings are for – they’re normally thought of as being a low-effort way to pack an emotional punch. But because we’ve kind of barely seen her all season (she’s in less than a third of episodes), and because this is Mary so if we’re going to kill her again it has to hit, they feel compelled to spend time giving us a couple of slightly on the nose flashbacks to try and make sure we care. It’s the sort of work you’d normally do before you kill a character, rather than slightly messily afterwards to try and make their death look worthwhile, which is really how it comes off here.

And the thing is, it’s not just that it’s kind of messy – it doesn’t actually help facilitate the soulless Jack arc at all really, instead it actively distracts from it. Obviously this is true in terms of screen time, because we have to take time away from Jack stuff for the flashbacks and for Mary’s funeral, but also in terms of the story’s focus. The interesting thread here is “someone we care about is ~dangerous now, what might we have to do to stop them??”, which is pretty decently well-trodden ground for spn, which you could easily have done just based on the snake and burning Nick alive on their own. And then in theory, this would all be made extra tragic by the fact that it was Jack saving them from Michael that even put him in that position, but we barely lean into this because we’re so focussed on Sam and especially Dean’s reactions to Mary’s death. Like, that thread does even still gets pulled on a little bit! You have Dumah's “he lost his capacity for good through an act of goodness” – and that’s what’s actually compelling here. But it’s barely touched on really, because if you’re going to kill Mary, that’s what you have to focus on, or at least that’s what the show seems to be convinced of. Nick even explicitly says it in 14x18 – “Buddy, you killed Mary Winchester. You cannot come back from that.” So we get hung up on an accidental death that could easily have just happened while Jack had his soul, instead of the actual implications of Jack’s soullessness beyond that.

Everything with Mary’s death also obviously makes Dean come off less sympathetically (and not in an interesting way), if he’s motivated by revenge, rather than genuine concern about what Jack might do. In part because of the revenge motive, he seems to take a genuine vicious satisfaction in tricking Jack into the box, for example, whereas if it was more a tragic last resort for how to deal with this very difficult situation, it would make for a much more nuanced and interesting situation, that would hit much harder.

And this isn’t the only way in which the restructuring of the arc to accommodate Mary’s death has implications re Dean’s character. It does look like they were setting Jack up as a Dean parallel here, which obviously if he’s killed Mary, it’s hard for him to be in the same way anymore. There’s a really good post somewhere which I’m annoyed I can’t find about how good leaders don’t ask their subordinates to do things they wouldn’t do themselves, and how Dean would do insane things and so thinks it’s reasonable ask his subordinates to do them too. The post explicitly cites Jack in the Box and iirc also Moriah (edit: it was this post and it cites Jack in the Box and Unity) as examples of this, and while it’s a really interesting piece of character analysis, it’s kind of striking when trying to think about writing decisions that 1) this stuff would be strengthened if Jack was still in the category of people Dean could see himself in, which because he’s killed Mary, he can’t be and 2) by drawing the parallels it draws, it also points out that “oh hey! The writers have chosen to put Jack in situations that Dean has also notably been in! What does this tell us?”

Moriah is probably the less strong of the two examples re just the situation, but the thing is that in addition to Dean effectively asking Jack to be prepared to die for the good of the world like he has before, the obvious thematic use of a mechanic like the Equalizer is “by killing this person you are killing yourself not only literally but also figuratively”. Like, something something supernatural and wasted potential goes without saying, but they did presumably come up with that object for a reason, y’know? But then Mary’s death and the revenge motive means that Moriah doesn't come anywhere near to playing like Dean killing himself on two levels even though like… what is the point of that gun otherwise? It almost feels like a fossil from a different story. And then the situation re the Ma’lak box is very similar. @autisticandroids pointed out to me separately a while ago that Jack is becoming Dean in ouroboros – “I am a winchester + eating michael + being destined for the box” – and also that were it not for the vengeance motive things would very much more come across as “oh my god dean’s putting himself in the box”, which y'know would be both hard-hitting and also the sort of thing spn loves to do.

And it’s also what they’ve been setting up! Like, you go from Dean having something dangerous inside him that means he might have to be locked up or killed, to Jack ending up in that position instead, specifically via him fixing Dean’s issue! It's even him specifically who directly argues for killing Dean to protect the world from Michael in 14x02! There’s a lot of groundwork there for them as parallels in s14 which Mary’s death undermines – the season is just structurally way tighter and more thematically resonant if you take it out. Getting rid of Mary’s death and the revenge motive for Dean (leaving a tension between concern about Jack vs concern about the world in its place) also meshes way better with the way they originally set up the stuff with Jack’s soul too, where it’s meant to be a sad thing for him, that he would no longer be himself etc. And like, that’s arguably partly because it’s Yockey handling it and he’s the only writer who cares about Jack, but it is still what was being set up. “Jack died –> the mechanism we used to bring him back allowed him to burn off his soul to be useful –> he’s dangerous as a result of this and oh god we have to do something about it” is way neater and more compelling as a trajectory if you don’t throw in “also he accidentally killed our mother and so Dean sort of wants him dead because of that too”. There’s a disconnect between the obvious route to take this story and then end result, and Mary’s death seems to be the thing lying behind it.

So yeah, Mary’s death was a bad writing decision not just because it’s not worth refridging her for the sake of the soulless Jack arc (which it definitely isn’t), but also specifically because it actively makes the soulless Jack arc worse. Obviously misogyny was frequently a driving force behind writing decisions on spn, but it doesn’t look like it was here in the way people seem to assume. It doesn’t look like they were killing a woman in order to serve our story – instead, the story has been actively derailed by them killing a woman. Which does really make it seem like that’s not why they wrote her out.

[antigonewinchester]

🔥 jack

I quite enjoy him as a character and dislike the majority of fandom discourse around him.

Jack is clearly favored by the writers & story in his seasons: he’s given the sympathetic cute white guy treatment in casting AlCal, he’s an entirely new character who becomes arguably the 3rd lead, he a part of major plots and has narrative focus**. given all that, I can very much see why some ppl dislike him, his role in the story, etc. hate away! but the other side of it, fandom’s woobification of him, making him literally a child, or downplaying his choices / agency / incredibly strong powers, is also incredibly boring. despite his narrative focus there’s room for a lot more fandom explorations of Jack.

Jack’s ending of becoming God was foreshadowed from S13 and I think the writers had something like it in mind from early on.

Kelly's death & sacrificing her life so Jack could live influenced him from Day 1 and Jack was going to have major guilt issues and feel like he had to do good / live a good life even if he hadn't been raised by Sam, Dean, Cas. some of Jack's issues are all his own.

S14 is by far the best Jack season and the tragedy of it doesn’t work unless Jack is actively making choices and has agency within his story—choosing to sacrifice his soul to save his family, choosing not to tell Sam & Dean (or Cas) about almost killing Stacy, choosing to brutally kill Nick, etc. 14x16 – 14x20 from Jack’s perspective is excruciating and that’s what makes it so good! put that guy through the horrors!! as messed up as 14x20 is, the fandom framing of Evil Abusive Dean going to kill Poor Sweet Jack misses 1) the deliberate narrative reversal of the beginning of the season w/ Jack saying they'd have to kill Michael!Dean to protect the world, and the season climax in Dean believing he has to kill Jack [and himself] to protect the world, What Could It Mean, and 2) Jack actively choosing mercy instead of fighting. Jack could’ve run or easily incapacitated / killed Dean with his powers but decides he'd rather die than risk hurting or killing someone else. which is a fucked up but compelling & interesting character choice!

speaking of 14x20, I’m surprised I’ve never seen a comparison between 4x20/4x21 and 14x19/14x20. [there’s… a very cynical meta-through-line I’ve thought about here, but I’m not sure if I’m reading too much into it.]

reveal of Sam drinking demon blood & his ‘monstrousness’ > Dean & Bobby lock Sam in the panic room > Sam breaks out thru angelic power > Dean goes to confront Sam

reveal of Jack killing Mary and his soullessness > Dean & Sam lock Jack in Ma’lak box > Jack breaks out using his angelic powers > Dean goes to confront Jack

**Dabb & his writers wanted to keep exploring generational traumas & familial cycles and brought in Jack to continue that thread as Sam & Dean had mostly worked thru their issues, but there’s a feel of warped or forced character development to make it all fit—say, Dean as Jack’s “cool uncle” is arguably more realistic given Dean’s understandable distrust of Jack and resistance to parenting him from early S13, but the writers wanted to explore the conflict of Dean as Jack’s father figure and so that’s what the dynamic had to become. so it's less that the characters are OOC but the way the writers approach it & the narrative framing of it all that's overly simplistic.

Send me a “ 🔥 ” for an unpopular opinion.

[verobatto]

Destiel Chronicles

Vol. CXX

It was a love story from the very beginning.

Destiel Fight Intensifies

(14x19/14x20)

Hi there! And we finally reach season 14 ending!

Just one more season and we will be finishing this project.

Remember this meta is a summary of my analysis from season 14.

You can find my season 14 metas from these episodes in the following links: X, X, X, X, X, X and X.

The Promise that broke Destiel

Episode 19 was full of drama after Mary's death.

Dean avoiding talking with Sam and Castiel, but crying alone in the woods.

But what I want to point here the cause of Castiel and Dean's quarrel: Jack (the promise to Kelly).

Castiel's mission is his promise to Kelly, so from the beginning, he marks the limit. He won't hurt Jack. He will help him and guide him.

Before continue with this topic, let's talk about visual narrative related to the Destiel break up. Pay attention to how Dean and Castiel are placed in the following frames...

Gifset credit @agusvedder

Another frame that shows Dean and Castiel in different pages is this one:

Yes... At the same time. Avoidance. Negation. No hands here. Not now. One in front, the other looking backwards.

In the other hand, Sam and Castiel are in the same perspective related to Jack and how they need to save him and not to kill him.

Coming back to the fact that Castiel puts Jack before Dean, it's because there was a change of priorities since Jack showed Castiel the future, since Castiel became a dad.

Jack is like the newborn baby coming up to a young couple. Suddenly, the father felt a little left over, and jealous. It's the same situation here.

14x19: Dean and Sam locked Jack on the Mal'ak box. Second big fight between Dean and Castiel for that.

Destiel Fight Intensifies

14x20: Dean and Cas fought twice bc of Jack... And interesting clues about what was going on in Dean's head right now... we have this...

Gifset credit @agusvedder

Then Castiel pushed Dean with his shoulder, in an obvious way to show him how mad he is. He even squeezes his teeth. And then Dean stays there not turning around... That hurts for him... Castiel still being loyal to Jack after what he did. It hurts seeing Castiel pushing him that way and not being with him this time in this battle. Castiel choose Jack and that hurts to Dean.

The camera focused on Sam, showing us his suffering about the situation.

And then we will have Dean depressed, drinking in a dark room, after this fight.

Mirror Universe

There was a lot of visual elements and mirrors in Mirror Universe. One of the most significant that showed us the fact that Castiel puts Jack (the promise) before Dean was the following:

Gifset credit @agusvedder

The man in blue (Castiel mirror) confessing his secret love to that wan in red (Dean) but his name is Jack... And Dean face here is... Yeah... Jack. Ok. You said you love me but now is only Jack for you. And he turn off the TV, one: bc it was a love confession and he isn't ready yet for that. And two, bc it reminds him Castiel's love confession when Jack wasn't there... And now things are different.

... or walk away

Another scene in which this quarrel intensifies is when Dean gives Castiel the chance to choose (and Castiel picks Jack again).

CAS: There has to be another way.

DEAN: Well, there's not. Now, I know you don't like it, and I don't really care. 'Cause you just heard it from God Himself that this (picking up the gun) is the only thing that can kill Jack, so either get on board, or walk away.

(Cas leaves the room)

There's a pause Dean made before saying OR WALK AWAY. He didn't want to say that. He is the first that wants him there. By his side. He is the first that suffers each time Castiel disappear of the bunker. Not... He doesn't want to say those words... But he pushed Cas to make a decision again between him and Jack. And he loses again.

To Conclude:

Episode 14x19 but mostly, 14x20 showed us the Destiel break up that was foreshadowed the whole season.

Castiel's priorities changing are evident at the end of season 14, with a dramatic ending with Jack's death.

This break up will be elaborated more in the last season.

Hope you liked this summary, see you in the next one!

Tagging @magnificent-winged-beast @emblue-sparks @weirddorkylittlediana @michyribeiro @whyjm @legendary-destiel @a-bit-of-influence @thatwitchydestielfan @misha-moose-dean-burger-lover @lykanyouko @evvvissticante @savannadarkbaby @dea-stiel @poorreputation @bre95611 @thewolfathedoor @charlottemanchmal @neii3n @deathswaywardson @followyourenergy @dean-is-bi-till-i-die @hekatelilith-blog @avidbkwrm @anarchiana @dickpuncher365 @vampyrosa @authorsararayne @mybonsai1976 @love-neve-dies @dustythewind @wayward-winchester67 @angelwithashotgunandtrenchcoat @trashblackrainbow @deeutdutdutdoh @destiel-shipper-11 @larrem88 @charmedbycastiel @ran-savant @little-crazy-misha-minion @samoosetheshipper

@shadows-and-padlocked-hearts @mishtho @dancingtuesdaymorning @nerditoutwithbooks @mikennacac73 @justmeand-myinsight @idontwantpeopletoknowmyname @teddybeardoctor @pepevons @helevetica @dizzypinwheel @horsez2 @qanelyytha

@destielle @spnsmile @shippsblog @robot-feels @superlock-in-the-tardis @superduckbatrebel @belacoded @madronasky @anon-non2 @cea1996 @lisafu02 @asphodelesauvage @deancasgirl777

If you want to be added or removed from this list just let me know.

If you wanna read the previous metas from season 14 here you have the links:

Vol. CIX, CX, CXI, CXII, CXIII, CXIV, CXV, CXVI, CXVII, CXVIII, CXIX.

Buenos Aires July 4th 2021 11:37 AM

[musclesandhammering]

Jack: *accidentally hurts a few people because he literally does not have a soul, and then still feels bad about it to the point where he tries to bring Mary back and sits alone on a box in some random warehouse crying because his only friends will never trust him again*

Sam and Dean, without asking questions, immediately:

[deanwasalwaysbi]

Dean Morning the Loss of Jack as Family While Mourning Mary

Dean’s Out of His Mind in Jack in the Box Jensen’s acting in this episode is, as usual, everything. I will never forgive Buckleming for the second half of this episode. So we’re going to ignore it, just look at the first half and what is going through Dean’s f’ed up mind. 

Dean held it together in front of the hunters. Then he says he needs to get out of the bunker for a drink,  tells Sam he knows they need to talk about Jack, but not right now. Then he goes off alone - to sob.  We’ve seen Dean mourn before. It didn’t look like this. 

Here is the link to part two - specifically using color to look at Dean’s fear of loss in 14x18 being more profound as it related to Jack and Cas rather than Mary. 

Analysis of Dean’s grief in 14x19 in this post under the cut below

Dean’s changed since 13x01 - In both episodes he finds his privacy to grieve, but whereas before that grief was violent, now he’s less wrapped up in the toxicity he was taught and sobs. It’s a progression, but he still can’t be emotional in front of others, not yet. 

This time is different - Dean’s screwed up head:

Dean isn’t just mourning Mary. Dean is mourning Jack.  

His mom isn’t just dead, his son killed her.  Dean came around on Jack and raised him and believed he was good  ... and what if he was wrong.  What if it’s his fault that Mary died for trusting Jack.  

Grieving blaming Cas - Grieving being angry with Cas

Castiel kept information to himself, Cas might have caused Mary’s death.  but no, Dean didn’t care about the snake, not until it gave him someone to blame. He used to think things like Jack, things like Garth, things like him, couldn’t have domestic lives, used to think that Jack had to be hunted.  Dean learned to love Jack because of Castiel, because he was Castiel’s. Dean trusted Castiel into thinking he could even want this, into thinking they could have a family together in the first place. Now he feels like he has to reject Jack, that the old way was right. It’s like their family has been taken away from him  so he feels Cas betrayed him by inducing that trust.  Dean wanted a family and that family might have killed Mary, so maybe that’s his fault too.

Dean Said ‘Yes’ to Michael

Jack only lost his soul to defeat AU!Michael, which he wouldn't have had to do if Dean hadn't said Yes to him, so that's his fault too. So Mary's death is his fault.

Dean’s feelings are complicated and never fully fleshed out, but I think he is grieving How Mary died as much as the fact that she’s gone.  He is grieving the loss of the family that he had, family with Jack, with Castiel, ... with Mary and Sam.

[addictedtostorytelling]

Hi!

I love reading your takes on csi, its characters and especially gsr.

So, uh, I have some questions about season 14 ep 19 “the fallen”, and I’d love to hear your perspective on it.

I’m sorry in advance for the long questions.

So, um, my first question is that if Grissom or Sara was in Russell’s situation, how would they react and handle it (including the kid Mark, Jacob and the whole situation). Like what’s their initial reaction, how they’d communicate with the team (and Mark), if they use Russell’s way so the team can identify Mark, etc.

My second question (related to the first), if, in another happier universe where Sara and Grissom somehow work on their problem and didn’t divorce, and Grissom happened to visit Sara and the team at the LVPD, and Sara was in this situation, how would he handle it? And in reverse, if during the time Grissom hadn’t quit CSI and they got into something like this, what would Sara’s reaction be? (Would she adamantly stay and help or still decide to go to the hospital, etc).

My third q is that: during this ep, there was a cop , Debra, whose husband was shot. Do you think, while trying to console her, Sara thought about Grissom? And in the final scene, when Sara confronted her about being the mastermind behind all that and why she did it, she yelled “do you really think that there’s anything that i could say to you to make you understand?” Is that a sort-of attack on Sara and Grissom’s marriage (maybe she didn’t know they divorced?) or is it just because of the stress and Debra thought no one would get why she needed to do such thing? I think I saw some pain in Sara’s eyes.

Thanks a lot for your time. And, um, sorry again for long questions (I hope I didn’t make it hard to understand) and any mistakes I made in them.

hi, anon!

thank you for your kind words! i'm glad you enjoy my stuff.

also, no worries! your questions make perfect sense!

i'll just take your questions in order, okay?

i think for the most part that grissom and sara would have similar priorities to russell were they the ones in the hostage situation: i.e., they'd want to tend to jacob's injuries, try to figure out as much as they could about mark, communicate with their colleagues outside of the room if they could, get out alive, etc. in terms of how things would shake out, i'm sure there'd be differences in specifics, just because they are both different people than russell is and have different affects. not only would their own personalities alter the trajectory of their interactions with mark, but so would his responses to them. russell very much comes across as a "nonthreatening dad or grandpa," and while grissom could maybe give off similar vibes to him (albeit he's not necessarily as "hippie chill" as russell is), sara wouldn't. a lot would depend on what kind of rapport developed between them and mark; whether he came to trust them or not in the same way that he did russell. as for if they'd use the same method of id'ing mark as russell did, i think it'd depend on if that opportunity presented itself to them. if they could get a fingerprint off of him, i'm sure they'd use it if they could. if not, they'd maybe try some other approach. what that approach would be, though, i can't really say; it would depend on what resources were available to them in the moment.

if sara were the one taken hostage while she and grissom were still married, i think he'd behave pretty similarly to what we see when adam trent takes her hostage in episode 05x21 "committed": i.e., he'd be worried out of his mind and obsessed with getting her to safety; he'd do everything in his power to get her out of the room. meanwhile, if grissom were the one who was taken hostage while he and sara were still married, there'd be no way sara would still go to the hospital; she'd be at pd, in the "war room" with brass, trying to figure out a way to get grissom out alive. saving him would be her only priority. in both cases, i think that whichever spouse weren't the one in the hostage situation would most likely take on the same role greg does in the canon episode in volunteering to drop the medical supplies, and they'd use their weird married-person esp to communicate with their spouse during the handoff. part of the overall strategy of getting the hostage out might also potentially involve playing to mark's emotions: i.e., alerting him to the fact that the person he had taken into the room had a husband/wife in the building who was worried out of their mind, letting the spouse outside of the room talk to the one who was in the room (and mark) on the phone, etc. particularly once they figured out mark's motive—i.e., getting revenge for his best friend's death—they might try to appeal to him down that channel (e.g., "i know you loved him and that's why you're doing this. please don't take the person i love away from me").

so i'll say up front—and forgive me my "later seasons salt" here—that i don't for one second believe that the writers of this episode were at all consciously aware of how sara's own personal experiences might color her reactions to debra, because, frankly, outside of a handful of “very special sara episodes,” they almost never considered anything having to do with sara's backstory during the later seasons of the show; they were not at all thinking about her feelings for grissom or her family history when they wrote her interactions with debra at the hospital. they just put sara in the role of the csi who deals with debra because she's empathetic and they knew they could get good mileage off of having her empathize with debra only to then later realize that debra was actually the "puppet master" who had orchestrated the attack. any and all emotional cues in those scenes don't come from the script; they come from jorja fox knowing her character backwards and forwards, reading between the lines, and drawing connections that were never on the page. so that said, i do think jorja had sara thinking of grissom at first when she saw debra seemingly agonizing over blake's injuries. certainly, sara knows how she'd feel if grissom had been shot, and particularly once debra starts talking about "marital issues," she understands very keenly what that would be like—to have gone through a rough patch with someone you love only to then have them die. it's something she probably honestly lives in fear of all the time (i.e., what if she someday gets a call that grissom is sick or hurt or dying or dead?). as for debra's comments at the end of the episode, honestly, without knowing what her relationship with sara actually is—are they friends? do they know each other's life histories at all? is she even aware that sara was previously married and is now divorced? if so, does she know anything about the nature of sara's marriage/divorce (including sara’s stubborn loyalty to grissom even after they're no longer together)?—i can't 100% rule out the possibility that she is alluding to sara's marriage/divorce with her “make you understand” comment. however, my sense is that she's not speaking personally to sara there* but rather in their capacities as law enforcement officers—i.e., she knows that nothing she might say could ever justify her role in having the lvpd shot up, particularly to someone else who works in the criminal justice system. no matter what reasons she might try to offer, whether that blake wouldn't grant her a divorce or that he abused her or that she was out for the insurance money, sara will never be able to understand her actions, much less condone them. as for the pain in sara's eyes in response to what debra says, i agree that it's there. however, i don't think it necessarily has to do with grissom. in this case—and, once again, it's 100% jorja fox's acting choices and nothing to do with the script—i think what causes sara to flinch is debra invoking the concept of a woman killing her husband to escape domestic abuse, which, of course, is what sara's mother did to her father back in the day. that hypothetical that debra throws out hits closer to home for sara than debra can possibly know. it's sara's own lived family experience. that's where the pain in sara's eyes comes from.

* admittedly, i don't like to give credit to the later seasons writers where i don't think they deserve any. debra is not a character we ever see prior to the events of episode 14x19 "the fallen," and we never hear of her again afterward, either, so though it's technically possible that she and sara have some kind of personal relationship with each other (i.e., that they are friends enough that they know each other's business), i don't personally see much evidence to support that notion, particularly as all of the conversations they have in the episodes are ones that people who only really know each other passingly as coworkers could have. i kind of doubt that debra is even aware that grissom exists, much less that she would be versed enough in the ins and outs of sara's feelings for grissom that she'd know to make barbed comments about how sara would never be able to understand her desire to be rid of her husband. to me, that implied depth just isn't there.

anyway, those are my takes.

sorry i can't give more in-depth answers to some of the hypotheticals!

thanks for the questions! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[norahastuff]

I didn’t talk about this in my last post, but man Sam’s texts to Cas broke me. Presumably he knows something went down between Dean and Cas, he’s been there this whole time and seen how angry Dean has been with Cas, but he didn’t hear all the things Cas said to Dean before he left. He doesn’t know that Cas doesn’t feel like like belongs with them, that with Jack gone, he doesn’t feel like he has a place in their family.

Cas thinks Dean blames him from Mary, he thinks he’s dead to him. Well we know there’s more going on with Dean, he lashes out when he’s hurt but to Cas in his already guilty and grieving state he internalises those comments. But you know who does know that Dean has this tendency to look for someone to blame and to cling to anger so he doesn’t spiral from grief and pain? Sam. After all when Charlie died, Dean told Sam he wished it was Sam’s body burning on the pyre instead. Did he mean it? Of course not. But the difference was that Sam didn’t doubt that Dean loves him. Sure he’s been insecure about letting him down, or what his role is Dean’s life - see his speech to Dean in the s8 finale - but the fact that Dean cares about him has never been in question.

Cas doesn’t know that. He hasn’t be told, he hasn’t been saved.

However among the bigger more explosive Dean and Cas drama that’s been going on, Sam has been there too. When Dean lashes out at Cas with the “you’re dead to me” statement, Sam tries to stop him, and he continues defending Cas throughout the episode:

Dean: Cas should have told us. As soon as he saw Jack go all Dahmer on his stupid freakin' snake, he should have told us

Sam: Dean, it wasn't just Cas. It wasn't. We knew Jack was dangerous. We always knew.

Dean: No, you didn't know, okay?

Sam: We didn't know. Exactly. We didn't know

What’s more he even acknowledges that Cas has been the one that’s been taking the responsibility for Jack’s care since he was struggling since Michael killed all the hunters

Throughout the first three episodes of season 15, we’ve seen the tension between Dean and Cas build until it finally reached a peak in 15x03. However there’s been no such tension between Sam and Cas. They’ve been fighting together, helping each other - Cas even tried to heal Sam after he saved him from Gacy’s ghost. They’ve been good and in sync. In fact I’m honestly trying to remember the last time there was any real conflict or complications between the two of them and am drawing a blank on anything post season 9. That was when they had that beautiful episode, 9x11, where they talk about how they understand each other. Cas tells Sam how much he means to him, they have some light hearted banter, genuine conversation and adorable hugs. Not to mention Cas delivering the most glorious line that sums up why they have the relationship that they do, pretty well:

I’m not going to go on about it anymore right now but for more thoughts about the difference between Sam and Cas and Dean and Cas’ relationship in s9 see this post comparing the parallels.

Sam and Cas are easier. They don’t have the same baggage as Dean and Cas, they just have understanding and support. That’s why Cas’ radio silence hurts. Sam wants to be there for him. He cares and Cas needs to see and feel that right now. It’s why I’m so excited about next weeks episode. They could both use a friend right now. 

Edit: sorry not next week, the week after.

[adoptdontshoppets]

Why was dean so sad about his mom when she died?

I’m not a great expert on the later seasons, since they are not my favorite. I only rewatch a handful of later episodes, so I might not remember all the nuance.

That being said, my thought is that family has always been the most important thing to Dean. While at times he had his differences with her and she wasn’t around that much, he had forgiven her and loved having her back in his life in any capacity after having missed her for 33 years. And while it is unclear how much time has passed since the 14x13 Lebanon episode, they had just gone through the pain of losing their father again. So it may have hit him extra hard having both parents gone again, especially to have lost her for literally no reason...an “accident.”

Now as for me (even though you didn’t ask), I don’t miss her in the slightest because of how SPN wrote her character as one that can’t seem to be bothered to spend more than a few hours with them at a time. So in fact, my favorite Mary scene is when Dean kicks Mary out of the bunker in 12x14. That is one of the few moments I rewatch a lot.🤣

I just feel bad that the boys felt pain at her loss. They did give her a nice send off (even if the writers made another stupid decision to have a shapeshifter crash the memorial).

[weird-dorky-little-d]

[drsilverfish]

“So, who’s ready to take on the Book of Samuel?” (14x19)

This is Pastor Ames, who was coming by Shelley’s prayer group “... to discuss the Book of Samuel”. The one whom Jack cursed with being devoured by worms.

Look at the little image of a shepherd and his flock in the background. Relevant to Jack’s role as the new God, “shepherding” his flock of new angels, but also to the Abraham and Isaac story being referenced next week by the title Moriah (14x20) and the idea of Jack as a sacrifice (scapegoat):

http://drsilverfish.tumblr.com/post/184068368304/the-scapegoat-speculative-musings-on-s14s-end

I just realised the significance of Pastor Ames words, “So, who’s ready to take on the Book of Samuel?” for the Destiel/ queer subtext of 14x19 Jack in the Box. 

This is, therefore, a companion piece to my earlier meta on that subtext:

http://drsilverfish.tumblr.com/post/184305778829/a-pillar-of-salt-in-14x19-jack-in-the-box

The Biblical Book of Samuel is famous for its depiction of the passionate friendship/ relationship between David (he of David and Goliath fame) and Jonathan:

“I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.” (Samuel 1:26 King James Bible).

“And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.” (Samuel 18:1 King James Bible) .

“And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul.” (Samuel 20:17 King James Bible). 

Jonathan and David’s relationship is very relevant to Dean and Castiel’s, as you can see, because it has been extensively debated by scholars and priests, with some interpreting it as a platonic, intense, homo-social friendship, and some interpreting it as both passionate and homo-erotic. 

Oscar Wilde cited Jonathan and David’s relationship at his 1895 trial, as an example of the “love that dare not speak its name” (arguing, counter-intuitively, but in his defence against charges of [then illegal] sodomy, for the “platonic friendship” interpretation):

“Such a great affection of an elder for a younger man as there was between David and Jonathan, such as Plato made the very basis of his philosophy, and such as you find in the sonnets of Michelangelo and Shakespeare."

Neil McKenna, The Secret Life of Oscar Wilde, London, 2004.

The reference to the Book of Samuel can thus (in an episode which continues Dean and Castiel’s lovers’ quarrel, begun in 14x18, over the fate of their adopted son) be understood as a knowing meta-narrative commentary on Supernatural by the text itself - an acknowledgement (itself in subtext) that Dean and Castiel’s relationship can be read as either a homo-social, comrades-in-arms style friendship, or as a homo-romatic/ homo-erotic attachment. 

This is a lovely little Easter egg. However, it is also, perhaps more evidence that Supernatural intends to hold onto that ambiguity of interpretation til the end. 

It might also be fore-shadowing (yikes)  because (Biblical spoiler alert) Jonathan dies in the Book of Samuel and David laments him:

“How have the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! Jonathan is slain on your high places. I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful, than the love of women. How have the mighty fallen, And the weapons of war perished!” (Samuel 1:23)

Dammit Bucklemming! 

I swear, they have written another decent episode.

[soullessjack]

Also just since my one jack-psychosis post made its rounds i’d love to add on these things for extra salt in the wound:

-> “jack smiles, so happy to be so needed, so loved.”

-> “they’ll never want to be friends again.” [“and that’s important to you?”] “they raised me. taught me to be who i am.”

[junkcas]

something just hit me about cas' wording in absence: the difference between “family” and “a family.” he didn’t say, “we were family, and i didn’t wanna lose that.” he said, “we were a family.” as in, instead of just having a general familial connection, they were an actual family unit. the fact that cas wants to be part of the winchester family has always been obvious, but what he’s talking about here is almost frighteningly more domestic.

[postmodernmulticoloredcloak]

About Dean’s emotions in 14x19

Remember that Dean wanted to be a firefighter when he was a child.

He saw a fire killing his mother and felt like it was his responsibility to be able to prevent fires from hurting anyone else. He felt like it was his fault if his mom died because he wasn’t able to save her.

All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam! That was his crap. He’s the one who couldn’t protect his family. He... He’s the one who let Mom die. Who wasn’t there for Sam. I always was! He wasn’t fair! I didn’t deserve what he put on me.

He carried the guilt for letting Mom die until he was too emotionally exhausted to keep that weight, together with all the other weights, on his shoulders, and acknowledged to his subconscious that it was John, the adult, that should have carried the responsibility for the family, not him. But he still carries those weights, because John is gone, dumping more weight on Dean’s shoulders. He just acknowledges that it wasn’t fair, but that can’t change that the trauma is still there.

Of course it was never Dean’s, or John’s, or Sam’s, fault that Mary died, but does our mind, do our emotions care about factual truth? Emotional truth is perfectly enough for trauma.

Dean’s emotional truth was guilt and the incommensurable weight of responsibility over his entire family.

And what is Dean’s emotional truth now? He blames himself for Mary’s death again. Because he didn’t see the signs, because he lowered his guard about Jack despite knowing how dangerous he could be. Because he grew attached to the kid and became unable to see his danger. Getting angry at Cas allows him to temporarily outsource that guilt a bit, but the truth is that Dean blames himself for things. It’s what he does. It’s actually a good thing that he can unload the guilt in the immediate aftermath of realizing something’s happened to Mary, because at least he gets a way to deal with his fear and guilt by directing it into anger for a bit.

But the thing with Dean’s character is that anger is never just anger, anger is fear and guilt.

He’s terrified of Jack now. He’s grieving Mary, he’s scared of Jack, and carrying the guilt for Mary’s death and Jack’s situation (remember that they are convinced that Jack’s problem is soullessness, despite that being only partly true: to the audience, it’s evident that Jack’s problem isn’t the same as when we’ve seen humans lose their soul, but in the circumstances Dean sees him, he appears like an unfeeling creature devoid of empathy. Dramatic irony...) because let’t not forget that Jack, as his de facto adopted child, has become his responsibility too, in addition to a person Dean genuinely cares about as his closest family.

When he faces Jack, he’s furious. Jack killed his mom. He’s been programmed since he was four to hate the thing that killed mom, but again, even without that, you know, fury against the person who just killed your mother so brutally there was nothing of her left afterwards... is a pretty normal human reaction.

But he’s also scared. He’s been scared of Jack ever since Jack started acting ‘off’. Why do you think Dean was so upset when Cas kept mentioning the snake? Because Dean projected his discomfort and worry and fear - that he was actually starting to feel towards Jack - onto the snake instead. He underestimated Donatello’s invite to caution. He just focused on the discomfort he felt towards the snake... sure, he felt uneasy around the snake, but what, deep down, he really felt uneasy around... was Jack.

Now the fury - the grief-induced fury, again, it’s a perfectly reasonable thing for him to feel - burns more brightly, but let’s not forget that both Dean and Sam are terrified of Jack there. They’re not simply nervous because their plan might get busted, they commented earlier that they needed to find Jack before Bobby and the other hunters because Jack could kill them all (Dean says it but Sam doesn’t contradict Dean). They’re genuinely scared Jack would kill them. Heck, they can’t be sure Jack wouldn’t kill them regardless of their trick - Mary was family to him, and look at what happened to her.

Dean feels responsible for stopping the thing that has killed his mom (and is killing more innocent people, and, oh, apparently making angels, talk about alarm bells ringing...). He is in pain, he feels guilty, and he’s scared. He’s reliving his childhood trauma again. He allows himself a bit of time to cry in private, but there’s this new emergency to deal with. And he needs to deal with it, because that’s on him.

[verobatto]

🔥 Fire on Fire🔥

🔥Destiel meta 🔥

Supernatural 14x19 meta spoiler "Jack in the box"

Hello my friends, here I'm with the third part of my METAS from 14x19. First of all this is a Destiel meta, I know many of you are loosing hopes now... But I will show you this fight was predicted since this season started...

Let's see...

Oh! If you want to read the first part is here and the second one is here.

Foreshadowing the FROZEN STATUS of Destiel

So... Recalling a very very important episode from this season MINT CONDITION. Mint Condition showed us the path this season will take.. and they showed us too this image...

Thanks for this pic @weirddorkylittlediana

Those are Superman (Castiel) and Lois Lane (Dean) being frozen by the monster there. FEARS AND TOXIC BEHAVIOR Dean is having now, about Jack situation.

Remember when he choose to drink from the red mug twice? One on Mint Condition and the other in 14x14 Ouroboros. Bad decision Dean is back.

But I have more clues and foreshadow in Mint Condition... And thanks to @weirddorkylittlediana she shared this pic in our chat group with @emblue-sparks and @agusvedder and we just felt our heads blew out! I mean I was writing just the introduction of this and then...

STUART (Toxic!Dean mirror) saying... So handsome... So angry.

Yes yes maybe this??

Thanks @agusvedder for this gif!

But let's continue with Mint Condition, remember what Panthro (obviously Cas mirror) made to Stuart? Yes. He kicked his ass...

There was a fight between Panthro (Cas mirror) and Stuart (Toxic!Dean mirror).

And at the same time Stuart laid on bed... His friend was talking very fondly about him. And Dean remembered Castiel...

With the blue light in his face... Now... Please check this frame from last episode...

Dean is between two blue courtins (representing Castiel's wings) he is now who's trying to get through Cas, bc his words "You are dead to me" were a horrible way to release his anger on Castiel. But now is Castiel who's angry, and very angry, with Dean. He is walking before him, with a hospitalized guy in green (Dean mirror here as I said in my second meta), yes, now Cas is getting so mad at Dean... Frozen Destiel, break up of Destiel.

Foreshadowing the fight and the lovers separation

And everyone in the fandom talking about WHY DIDN'T THEY HUG???? WHY WE DIDN'T HAVE A HUG?

Well... Now in 14x19 and almost finishing the season, I can answer that... Beacuse it was a foreshadow too. A foreshadow of what we are seeing now, this fight.

And Jack hugged Dean, and then in Mint Condition Dean didn't wanted to come out from his room, and one of the excuses he gave was... Because CAS wasn't there... Castiel was with Jack. And he wasn't there with him. Yes... Like now. I made a crack post here about how they were having a crisis in their 10th anniversary, and that doesn't sound so crack right now, isn't??

And Dean remembering Castiel almost with melancholy here in 14x07

So my friends...everything has sense now... All the Destiel Metas I wrote... Now they confluencing in this season 14 ending...

And the fight is because of Jack. Castiel will take care of the kid with his life, because he promised that to Kelly...

I made a promise!!!

The thing that separates them is THE PROMISE.

So Cas is trying to find another way to save Jack and Dean wants to kill the "monster" bc he choose the red mug.

That's, my friends, is the break up and the lovers separation... For now.

"You love me but in your heart there's something before me"

These are part of the lyrics from the end of 14x06 Optimism, the meta about it is here. In this meta I predicted the lovers separation we are seeing now. The cause is the different way to try to solve Jack's situation. The promise.

But Dean saying "Panthro is mine" in Mint Condition, is showing us he is trying to get close to CAS again, after the words he said to him... But now, as I said, Cas is mad at him.

So... Dean trying to get close to CAS... He approached Castiel, very close, as he does always, maybe trying to rub his hand as he was doing till now (the moves).

But Castiel immediately looked at him mad like "Are you serious? We are in different pages now."

Here👆 (all these gifs by my talented friend @agusvedder )

Look how Castiel decided to move away from Dean, saying "PUNISHED BY HEAVEN" And then we had this one...

Yes... At the same time. Avoidance. Negation. No hands here. Not now. One in front, the other looking backwards.

Things are not ok. Destiel break up again.

And this frame here from next episode...

Just emphasizes more this thing about the break up, the good one is Sam is Castiel's side now, and Dean is alone with his plan... Another foreshadow I predicted (damn I'm sounded like a crazy fortune teller here...)

But I said Dean will be stay alone somehow in this season.... Aaaaand here you have the thing. Dean is alone with this plan.

To conclude

The fight, the break up and the lovers separation was foreshadowed since episode 14x03 when Dean and Castiel didn't hug, in 14x04 with the Panthro as Castiel mirror/Stuart as Toxic!Dean mirror. In 14x06 with Dean's POV about love and 14x11 with Mary and Donna (both Dean's mirror) talking about their break up and 14x15 with Castiel's POV showing us the promise is first.

So this fight and angst shouldn't be a surprise for us, Destiel shippers... Having faith in the other foreshadow THE TALK and my hands foreshadow metas here and here.

So hey! Let's see what happens. I think season 15 will be very interesting for Destiel, I'm looking forward for a Dean trying to redeem himself with CAS by rescuing him from the Empty or doing anything to kill the Empty and break the deal.

Ok I hope you like this. C-u later my friends!

Tagging @metafest @gneisscastiel @mrsaquaman187 @magnificent-winged-beast @emblue-sparks @agusvedder @weirddorkylittlediana @michyribeiro @castiellover20 @whyjm @koshisekisen @legendary-destiel @a-bit-of-influence @thatwitchydestielfan @misha-moose-dean-burger-lover @lykanyouko @evvvissticante @cheerstofandomfamily @drsilverfish @savannadarkbaby @angelneedshunter @trickster-archangel @dea-stiel @mybonsai1976 @hippyatheart80 @anarchiana and specially mention to @wayward-winchester67 I know you will love this meta 😘

Buenos Aires April 19th 2019 11:23 PM

[tinkdw]

I see lots of posts saying Sam is just as complicit in the treatment of Jack as Dean but to me the feel is completely different.

Dean is vengeful first and foremost. It’s about what Jack did to mom. Secondly it’s about protecting others.

Sam is focused on the safety of others. Dean has to convince him to put Jack in the box. Sam I feel could definitely have been persuaded if he’d spoken to Cas to look for an alternative first.

There’s a reason we see Dean look completely unconflicted and with pure sad rage on his face all episode. He’s acting out of pain and vengeance. His is an emotional response.

Sam’s is the rational response. He is convinced by Dean but he is conflicted.

Why does he let himself be convinced? Look at this entire season.

He lost Dean to an Angelic force, now he lost mom to one.

He lost all his hunters, friends, a group of people to said Angelic force, now here’s another group lost.

Jack’s actions mirror Michael’s (though importantly they are not the same or with the same motivation they’ve similar enough) and this is what convinces him alongside the fear of losing Dean again if he argues I’m sure.

Sam and Dean did this together but the way they did it and their motivations are completely different.

Emotional v Rational. It’s like a caricature of 14 seasons of Sam and Dean.