#and they're a whole other level of problematic

[ampleappleamble]

Sailor Moon SuperS: Chibi-Usa, it was wrong of you to express your wish for your mysterious friend/love interest to reveal anything about himself to you, such as his real name, or why your nightly conversations with him must remain a secret from your loved ones. He is totally justified in punishing you for "not believing in" him by cutting off all contact with you until you agree to his terms again.

Me: Hmm. I don't know if I necessarily agree with–

Sailor Moon SuperS: Nevertheless, the status quo has been reestablished so you are forgiven. Now, make out with this horse.

Me: fhffghfDFHJGEGHGHFHDSD–

[gideonisms]

tamsyn could say two characters fucked nasty and people would still interpret it as platonic. And they might be right, depending

[elizabethrobertajones]

kriles summer trust top is kinda problematic tho... lalafell r smol and should be wholesome.

Aw, come on.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree because within the fiction, lalafell are just as mean, gross and horny as anyone else. Gegeruju is a perv, and the whole Ul'dah Syndicate is full of evil little bastards. On the good side, lala are just as complex and grown up as anyone else - Tataru courts followers and dances in a skimpy outfit in the Forgotten Knight, Giott is a roaring drunk stereotypical fantasy dwarf (not to mention whatever the heck is going on with the Tomra and Komra dwarves in general tbh :P). And Lamitt's story was sweet but it did involve her having adult feelings for Ardbert.

Like, really, I can only think of 4 completely wholesome lala out of a cast of hundreds, and they happen to mostly be the ones we've interacted with a lot (Nanamo; Pipin who is a Heroic Knight archetype; Papalymo, who was a grumpy old scholar man; Krile). But that's more about them being main characters serving roles in the narrative rather than indicative of how lalas behave as a whole. In fact after going through ARR, meeting Pipin and finding One Good Ul'dahn Lala is an enormous relief (since the other one is apparently dead now).

And Krile is a main character now so she's allowed to step out of the shadow of being uwu cat hoodie girl who wasn't written with much depth outside of being serious and earnest and rather spooky; she's actually 22 years old according to the first wiki I found - regardless of if that's totally accurate she's definitely meant to be a peer of the other adult Scions and they all treat her like an adult. Her introduction cutscene has her ribbing Alphy as an older friend laughing at how a much younger one used to behave, so we're supposed to immediately understand on meeting her that she's post-teen since she knew 11 year old Alphy and was of course older than him since he was a freak entry into the Studium at that age. Probably a necessary writing moment because establishing lala's age with hilarious moustaches or deep voices or whatever is a part of how the game has to present them.

Out of the fiction, I know lalas are part of a much wider trope that people do find problematic as a whole (e.g. just because in universe Tataru has babes across the globe and that's normal to everyone involved, who are consenting adults in a world which wholly understands Tataru as a consenting adult, is it actually really creepy that it's happening at all because her body type is toddler-esque? Is it weird in general that lala emotes are SO baby in the same way miqo emotes are SO kitty?

ffxiv definitely goes waaay further into borderline creepy territory than many games with smaller fantasy races in it, when it comes to how lala look, so yeah I know it's a fraught area and can be discomforting to see the game present child-shaped people as having adult desires and a thing some people understandably set aside along with other elements as things they're not happy with co-existing in the game with things they really love.) We can absolutely talk about that on a meta level of how we relate to the game and feel about it, just like things we find racist or uncomfortable in other ways e.g. eng translation Hien's treatment of Yotsuyu being a really problematic point.

But, that's one thing, versus talking about us here in fandom and how we relate to it, and I think your ask is, well, really not very deeply considered on any level, but I think is talking about how we as fandom relate to lalas, based on an inaccurate reading of them in the game, meaning you're really not even analysing a thing about it and therefore your ask comes more in the terms of policing how we should FEEL about Krile's beach outfit, and dictating that we SHOULD find lalas smol and wholesome, and that therefore there's an inherent problem in anyone reacting positively to the outfit, rather than critiquing its place in the game in the first place. Having hit a cognitive dissonance in seeing swimsuit Krile existing you've come to me to complain it's problematic rather than taking any actual meaningful action. Ergo, this is a fandom problem to you, not a game problem. WE should find it problematic and say so, you are implying, shocked that so many people looked at a post about the beach outfits and no one commented as such.

Aside from lalafell being fictional and at no point other than the visuals are they treated as children (and emotes aside, playing through the MSQ as a lala wol you easily fall into seeing them as an adult because of course all the cutscenes share the same level of gravitas no matter what you're playing or what clown costume you have on any player), there ARE actually real humans who are built somewhere closer to lala than not, and would be drawn to playing any of the smaller races in a game (like, gnomes in WoW, halflings in D&D, etc) because that's just their chance at representation. And because FFXIV doesn't have anything other than precious moments doll-shaped people the look might be great in the sense that they have the proportions of a cherub statue and it is a lot harder to meet in the middle than a halfling (notoriously hairy middle aged bastards and much easier to read as adult, though that doesn't exclusively represent people who've had growth developmental differences), that IS still the only representative option some people have in the game and if they want to indulge it rather than play something else with proportions forced on them by many games, then what the hell is wrong with that?

And they WILL go to bat for lalas and get upset when people say that they have to be precious baby characters who act like children. I've seen that on tumblr: there's a whole lala community who keeps kinda low key and away from everyone else by their own admission BECAUSE as soon as they get too much attention they're deluged with hate for playing characters who have adult desires and dress fancy - or, you know, like any other random slutty elf WoL. The fact I wandered onto lala blogs at random and saw that complaint on the first pages should speak to how often they have to deal with it. And, again, within the fiction of the game their characters are completely 100% normal and doing what other lalas who are written by the game do as well. I KNOW those blogs are out there and they'd be scared of getting this exact ask, and it would greatly upset them and ruin their day and put them off having any interaction with the community, which fucking sucks. We're here to have fun!

That said I'm not a weirdo anti all up in others' business, it's also fine to just like lalas and stuff without some huge circumstantial justification like "they look like me" - or - "my IRL wife" or whatever - you can also just play a lala or ship with one and it's like, your business. If that's all you're doing and it's not a hypothetical child molester who also has a whole gallery of lala porn that the cops find when they impound the computer full of REAL CHILDREN stuff as well it's never going to be anyone else's business anyway, ever, and that's like, one hypothetical awful person for a whole fandom of normies who are just surprised by how much idk Pipin's deep voice rocked their world and changed their whole perspective on what a hot character was.

Like, granted, that one HYPOTHETICAL weirdo will make everything rancid because there are people waiting to jump on people who like lalas, but also it still won't actually change what other people are doing into being Evil just because someone who actually hurts children found lalas attractive too. That, again, was the hypothetical awful person's problem and not theirs. And in no way can we just casually imply ALL people who like lalas are just inherently going to be dangerous, like real children, or enacting a private psychodrama teetering on the edge of all that.

They could in fact be completely average and boring psychologically and also have a crush on Tataru. Or, I guess, normal amount of weird for a fandom, but basically average XD In a fictional world where these characters are treated as adults, even normal people will naturally end up drawn to them as adults because, well, that's the story that's we're all engaging in. It's not inherently a thought crime to do so, because, weirdly, thought crimes don't exist.

Also, of course, people will literally discourse that hobbits are child-coded and shouldn't be shipped or seen as sexy, despite the most famous halflings, who made the entire halfling race as a generic brand, all being middle aged, hairy, smoking, drinking, guys with normal adult desires and mindsets. I mean yeah Elijah Wood was 18 when they started filming LotR (over several years so he was Krile's age by the end :P) but also Frodo celebrated his 40th birthday before setting off on the Ring Quest in the book and he was the baby of the group aside from Pippin.

In any case, there's no fucking winning and so I can understand completely that if a fucking Hobbit from Lord of the Rings gets shit for being short, and people are getting called a perv for fancying Sam Gamgee, then why not just embrace it with a Lalafell because you're literally damned no matter what in the eyes of someone who won't meet a LOTR HOBBIT where he stands as an adult man.

There's some DEEP puritanical brainrot going on online and I don't want to be a part of it whatsoever, so it means accepting lala likers for the sake of protecting Merry and Pippin's right to be seen as hot, than like, I know which side of of the line I'm dragging my beach chair. It's not even a question. I'm defending people who think lalas are appealing.

ANYWAY none of this is my business, I don't even find lalas sexy, I just think Krile looks nice in her cute summer top and it's lovely that she's getting fashion advice from her besties, and there's a million reasons to be happy about that and for her as a character, and only miserable bastard reasons to go "aurgh aurgh it's problematic" and condemn the game and everyone who plays it just for enjoying something. Lalas are NOT smol and wholesome, they're short and people, and that's fine.

[absolutebl]

What are some BL couples who you DO think could actually have a long haul perfect ending and not burn out two months after the show ends?

(Also if possible, could you drop the show titles aswell? Thanks)

20 BL Couples I Love & Think Would Actually Make it In the Long Run

Ha, yeah I intentionally didn't include the titles in that last post because I was being negative. Since these are positive... here you go!

Advance Bravely

I know right? One from China. But yeah I think they're very opposites attract but still well balanced and suited to each other. Plus "stern but indulgent Daddy + spoiled brat" is a favorite dynamic of mine.

Guardian

He waited 10,000 gd years. It has to work out. Despite censorship.

Old Fashion Cupcake

They both mature enough to be very motivated.

Tokyo in April Is

They suffered for that love. It's an enduring eternal kinda thing.

Cherry Blossoms After Winter

Taesung is NEVER letting him go. Never.

Long Time No See

Not only are they staying together, can you imagine anyone trying to separate them?

Nobleman Ryu's Wedding

I just think they gonna live in obscurity in the middle of the woods with their books forever.

Our Dating Sim

Of course they're gonna last, that was the whole point of the show.

Oh Boarding House

I think they both had to come around to each other with a lot of self-examination as to what it meant for them, their identities, and their lives. That kind of thoughtfulness bodes well for longevity.

(This is an under-appreciated gem. IMHO)

Be Loved In House I Do

Yeah they just so into each other but also adoring but understand each other's quirks. There's no meanness or pettiness to either of them. Double down on affection + chemistry is a good recipe for longevity.

DNA Says Love You

They came back for, and waited for, each other.

HIStory Obsessed

It's in the title. This level of mutually obsessed disfunction only ends in death.

HIStory 4: Close to You

Problematic side couple. Dito the above.

Thousand Stars

It's high romance of the eternal forever kind.

2 Moons Ambassador

They are *that* couple. "I married my college sweetheart and am incandescently happy forever in a disgustingly sappy way" that shouldn't work but does.

My Only 12%

Again, they suffered too much not to make it work. They are basically each other's half, it codependent, but that's the point.

Ingredients

They define domesticity. The true key to most couple longevity is the ability to actually live together.

Oh My Sunshine Night

File these two under the "once he had a taste, its' forever." The seme is too bossy and too possessive for anyone but the one he picked. This one lasts because Rain would MAKE IT last.

Oxygen

Dito the above, only softer.

Until We Meet Again

Of course. I mean, OF COURSE OF COURSE. That's the point. Dean's entire existence would be a failure if they broke up.

Despite my love of the genre I didn't pick any high school BL couples. Even if I think they may have a chance I'm not sure how I feel about that kind of pairing.

I didn't pick ones we know lasted because they showed it to us: e.g. Unintentional Love Story, His, Dear Doctor, My Ride.

There are a few I left off because I think they could last as a couple but the circumstances of their lives and surrounding, means I'm not sure if they would be allowed to, like Not Me, Never Let Me Go, Manner of Death.

(source)

[vampirae]

Astrology knowledge + personal notes

Disclaimer! Some paragraphs are pure astrological knowledge, others are just mine personal opinions and experiences. Experiences aren't universal, it may apply to some and not to others.

You don't feel like the 4th house is accurately describing your family dynamics or traumas? Nice, then look at your 2nd house. The 4th house talks about your family, but mostly about your roots, generational trauma, your country, your literal home etc. Meanwhile the infamous 2nd house associated always exclusively with money, in reality is linked directly to your childhood, your family dynamics/setting, values or traumas they gave you, also your literal future family etc. E.g. Venus in the 2nd house is associated with being spoiled or likely to be giving gifts or favours, but why? Probably because in their childhood caregivers tried to "buy their love" so they associate gifts to being loved. Look at the planets in your 2nd house, its ruler, and the aspects etc.

Cancer sun men, usually tend to be cheap or stingy, literally, never met a Cancer sun man in my life who isn't so, if they behave differently it's usually because it suits their own personal agenda, or try to manipulate you.

Aries moon women tend to post absolutely gorgeous photos, they're so artistic, and know how to take or edit photos or videos.

Cancer rising is so funny, relatable or friendly, they naturally attract people or masses, they're charismatic in their own way, but they tend to be private and dislike when people invade too much of their personal space without permission; some will cut you immediately off, others will be waiting patiently for you to finally understand you're being inappropriate, literally no in between.

Moon in the 12th house, from my own personal experiences, terrible friends. Likely to be great companions if you want to get high or drink or talk about whatever without being judged, but literally avoid them in "no chill time". Extremely manipulative, always victim of the circumstances, helpless and problematic. Briefly, if you don't want to find yourself being a free therapist for hours, a free ATM or parenting a whole ass adult, just avoid getting closer to them. On the other hand, great and sacrificial lovers, but vampiric succubus as friends. (To the people asking me which 12th house moon hurt me, well too many my darling, this is why they're on my blacklist).

When it comes to raw sexual libido mars in fall and detriment are the ones most usually labelled with low libido, which is true, but still in my opinion and experiences they're not on the same level. Mars is Cancer is the one with the highest libido between the three, then Libra and last Taurus. Furthermore men with this mars (the aforementioned) are more prone to have issues with their, ahem, "friend". But, gladly, they also have wild fantasies and are more prone to compromise or satisfy their partner's desires. E.g. if you want them to be dominant, they'll try their best to be your Master/Daddy etc. Last but not least, despite being "shy" and at first look traditional, they're more open to use toys or try new sex positions if it's your will, but won't share you (so threesome or orges literally it's a big NO if they truly love you).

Sagittarius and Cancer placements are competitive AF, but the last one will give up if they're gonna lose or act uninterested, or just whine in the corner about how life is unjust with them. Sagittarius placements, will look chill and playful, but they're extremely competitive, not only because of the prize, but it's a great opportunity to learn something new, or master some of their skills, or just an adrenaline shot. Literally, they're second to Aries when it comes to competing, yet people are unaware of this nature because of their nonchalant and sometimes dumbass vibes/behaviour.

Talking about Sagittarius placements again, when they're labeled as funny, don't think they're master at telling jokes or giving clever clapbacks, in fact, earth signs are masters of this type of humour. Sagittarius placements are funny because of their spontaneous nature: like saying some weird or shocking things with a serious face, or doing some WTF stuff, literally they're funny in original ways and something you never expected. With time they'll acquire a more "normal" sense of humour, but usually they're memorable for their unexpected humour.

Virgo really needs some structure or specific goals or tasks. They could have a hard time with unspecific projects, games or work, they'll literally stay there like a NPC waiting for your interaction or order, analysing the situations, outcomes and necessities.

Libra placements are charming and a good company, their indecisiveness is forgivable most of the time, until you have to work with them. It can be so stressful sometimes to work with or under a Libra (sun, rising or mars), you never know when they'll change their idea again or return to an old project, or what you have to do. I'm sorry to say it, but they're problematic bosses and owners. To lift yourself from this curse, there are few options, like changing job or aggressive yet polite confrontation, just to make it clear, next time you won't forgive and neither make you lose your time again, because it's the only resource you can't buy or restore.

[nekropsii]

Atomic Ask Bomb 3!!

We got a shorter one this time around! I hope everyone's evening is going well!

Content Warning: Long-ish, Discussions of Ableism + Queerphobia, Weird Cronus Moment™.

Same. I'd read a fanventure about that, I think.

Like, I don't personally believe WV would be allergic to being a mentor or something of a father figure, but I do have to wonder the level to which he was wigged out by the way that Dave and Karkat treat him, because Dave in particular imprints on him in a way that is... Kind of strange.

The later portions of Homestuck really baby WV. It's upsetting.

------

Easy. The actual things wrong with them.

A lot of the discourse surrounding them is fabricated, or has such poor priorities it might as well be fabricated. Most critical conversations about them surrounds things people just made up over the course of years of mythologizing their #Problematicness.

For Example: Most of the discourse surrounding why Horuss had problematic writing had to do with how he was "Bad Otherkin Representation", when the real issue was the fact that Hussie was conflating Being Otherkin with having a Dissociative Disorder, and in turn saying both of them are the exact same level of Fake And Gay for the exact same reason, because to Hussie they were the same thing. To this day, people get startled every time I point out that Horuss is canonically a System despite him bringing it up just as regularly as he does being Therian. Those are totally wack priorities.

------

...That's scary... I don't even have words...

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LOL. The Lost Weeaboos was a Grade A bit. Thank you Aranea, very cool.

Honestly, I don't even count Cronus as a "facade character", because it's not like he's making any efforts to hide jack shit. It's been... Interesting, watching several people refer to "his facade" lately, when, like... What are they talking about, honestly? He's pretty bold-faced about his whole deal. This isn't really a Dave situation where you could be capable of falling for it when you're younger, because Cronus couldn't be doing a worse job at "hiding" how awful he is. He's not even trying, because he knows he can get away with it. What are the other Alphas gonna do? Leave?

Hope you're having a good time!! The Alpha Trolls may be a Trash Heap, but they are my Trash Heap.

------

There comes a point where it's almost comedic how unaware people are of it... Like, what do you mean you know he's a Horse Therian but not that he's a System? He literally calls himself the Host of a System and talks about Switching. IN THOSE TERMS. He's not even obfuscating it by using some esoteric Troll terminology, he is LITERALLY using the words "Host", "System", and "Switching".

It's painful. I know this is a moment befitting of an XKCD comic, but... Jeez. You'd think these things would both be on the same level of common knowledge, considering how they're traits that are directly related to each other and given equal amounts of screen time, but nope!

Unfortunately, it is a situation where this is relevant. Sad!

------

All characters will become AroSpec and/or ASpec with the help of my Beam Attack.

... Except for Cronus. It's just not funny when it's him. Due to The Themes. It's not fun to headcanon a character as any minority when a huge part of their character is that they pretend to be minorities for Pity Points to eventually cash in for Sex. Ew. Making him literally anything other than Just Cronus plays directly into so many vile Queer stereotypes it's insane. Those are stereotypes that have gotten people actually genuinely killed. Just... Ew. Gross.

------

[alittlebitofloveliness]

Let's Talk about Soda and Cherry As Foils

It's pretty widely known and accepted that Bob and Randy are foils to Soda and Steve, almost the soc version of them, something Hinton even named in her book. However, I think BECAUSE she named this foiling people overlook another pair of narrative foils who are a little harder to notice but ultimately very interesting to analyze. This may ruffle some feathers, but I'm talking about how Bob and Cherry's relationship foils Soda and Sandy's. Cherry and Sandy are narratively as different as they could possibly be. Cherry is the queen of socs, a cheerleader, at the top of the social totem pole, whereas Sandy is pretty enough and 'sweet' but still a loud and brash greaser girl, with very little social status. That said, both girls managed to pull boys who are viewed highly by their peers in their own respective circles, Bob who was 'charming and funny' and well liked by socs, and Soda who was 'handsome enough even soc girls went after him'. HOWEVER, in my opinion, this is a very surface level view of these characters relationships foiling one another- and that's because I don't truly think Chery and Sandy foil each other, or that Bob and Soda do. If we're looking at foiling through the lense of both problematic romances, which both end badly (albeit in different ways) I actually think that Cherry and SODA foil each other the best. They both fell for problematic people, but Soda was too blind to see it, and Cherry willing to ignore it. They're both very clearly upset when their relationships end, but Cherry develops through the story to the point where it's questionable she would have stayed with Bob had he survived, whereas Soda admits he was willing to stay with Sandy and marry her even though she cheated and was having another man's baby. Now, having looked at Chery and Soda as foils, we now need to look at Sandy and Bob as foils. This is difficult, as neither character gets a lot of 'screen time', but narratively speaking, they're not that different. Both were good looking, known for being charismatic, but they both clearly had a dark side, something neither of them are shown to ever have had much remorse about. We know that Bob 'was always waiting for someone to tell him no', and I think to some extent the same could be said of Sandy. I don't want to impose TOOO much speculation into what's supposed to be a cut and dry character analysis, but in my experience cheaters often want the next, shiny new person, when they get bored/feel a lack of attention from their new partner, and I think that's what happened to her when the Curtis parents died and Soda had less time to shower her with attention/love. One COULD argue that Sandy also has the INVERSE of Bob's problem, in that she's spent her whole life being told no and not having enough, so that when she has a surplus of boys who are after her, the first time she's had "too much" of anything, she takes what she wants from all of them, however, I think that interpretation comes with it's own set of problems. Either way you look at it, Bob and Sandy both end up being wolves in sheep's clothing, albeit in different ways, and Cherry and Soda end up being the idiots who fell in love with them, and ended up breaking their own hearts in the process but also learning from these failed relationship experiences.

But yeah. Just some Thursday night thoughts.

[bloomeng]

i made the joke earlier about how steddyhands fans tend to like edstede the least of all the pairs, and i just wanted to elaborate bc actually i do have more to say about this

when i first watched the show i didn't really participate in the fandom (so i don't know pre-s2 fandom drama), i was neutral about izzy and i suppose i liked edstede the most simply by default. in general in season 1 i thought their relationship was charming back when the show was still firmly in the realm of a comedy. then s2 happened...

i wouldn't say that s2 ruined edstede for me permanently because i still like them, but i will say that it definitely reshaped how i see their relationship. suddenly their relationship was stagnant, going in circles, and generally starting to feel more like active bad influences on each other. which is wild considering how in s1 the whole crux of it was that stede and ed were actively making each other more authentic people. i will say though that i personally feel the reason edstede fell flat to me in s2 was mostly due to ed's behavior and the way stede overlooks it. ed's behavior in s2 will always be one of my biggest complaints of s2 (the rest of the issues are more technical).

recently i've seen the opinion that edstede are now MORE problematic than edizzy, which i don't exactly agree with. i agree with the sentiment that with all the developments in s2 edstede feels worse, but i think that has more to do with the fact that their relationship issues are far more tangible to the majority of the audience. with edizzy their issues stem from an intense bond forged by a deep codependence that is pushed to extremes. simply put their dynamic is rare. (i want to quickly note that this doesn’t make their relationship better narratively; there’s a space for both in story telling and both are equally valuable.) edstede's issues on the other hand are more grounded, to the point where most people have experienced some level of their conflicts in their life whether that be firsthand or secondhand. so it's not that their problems are worse so much as more people have stronger reactions because they can relate directly. not saying people don't relate to edizzy, it's more about the scale to which people relate.

my famous example is breaking bad (spoilers for a decade-old series) but i think one of the reasons people hate skylar so much more than walt (besides the obvious misogyny) is that they can relate to the anger of being cheated on while it's harder to relate to the feeling of your husband secretly being a drug lord. like sure his thing on paper is ten times worse but audiences usually relate strongly to the things they personally relate to.

edizzy will always be worse on paper (the toe incident alone makes sure of that) but edstede now feels worse is what i'm getting at. and sure i know izzy emotionally matured leaps and bounds in s2 but unfortunately that doesn't fix edizzy. in order for it to actually be a healthy relationship they both need to grow, so yeah they're still firmly in the toxi yuri category.

anyway i actually do like them a whole lot, but they also make me angry on izzy and the crew's behalf. and on a personal level, i just tend to prefer non-canon ships because i feel like i have more wiggle room. that and if they're canon i'm usually satisfied with that canon so i don't find myself hyper-fixating as much. hence why i didn't really get into the fandom after s1, despite liking the show more at that point.

this is just my observation but i think a lot of the reasons people are now drifting from edstede and into the safety of non-canon ships is simply because s2 stripped their relationship of some of their whimsy. a lot of people are angry with ed and stede and are seeking refugee amongst ships that don’t feel like they have to confront the glaring holes in their relationship.

but these are just my musings i don’t speak for anyone but myself.

[abnerkrill]

Conservatism is baked into pro-fidelity adaptation arguments

Aka, what incorrect lessons the Percy Jackson and Avatar: The Last Airbender adaptations taught fandom, and why the Internet is mostly wrong about The Rings of Power.

I don't particularly like the film adaptations of Percy Jackson and Avatar: The Last Airbender, but it's not because they "changed things" (and it's certainly not for Annabeth's hair color.) They're bad films purely because they're bad films, lacking the original texts' (Riordan's books/the ATLA show) charm, personality, point of view, and humor. Crucially, they both lack the essentials of plot and characterization and contain ill-fitting humor, bombastic CGI, and appeals to "mainstream" popularity that didn't actually appeal to any kind of mainstream because audiences are slightly too sensible to fall for something that cheap.

But fandom as a whole, and a whole rash of individual fans, took the wrong lessons away from these failed adaptations. People started to complain solely about superficial changes made (Annabeth's hair, the poor/problematic ATLA casting) and came to the conclusion that if the adaptations were only more faithful to the source material, they would've made good movies. (Which is why Riordan and the ATLA showrunners now are so hellbent on proving their new takes will be faithful. Because the fans are feral and bloodthirsty about it.)

Which is wrong. Because films are films, not books/animated shows. The medium demands fundamental, structural modifications. Films have more compact run-times than books and animated shows, and different dramatic shapes. Films are made for a 1-sitting experience—for this type of heroic quest story, it's always a 3-act structure, play credits. The medium necessitates changes. (Since Percy Jackson/ATLA/ROP are TV shows, not films, I'll caveat that TV shows are structurally even more difficult. Not only do you need to balance season arcs and their dramatic shapes, you need sufficient dramatic push-and-pull on an episode-to-episode basis.) On this level, we can agree fidelity is, to some degree, a myth.

Going deeper, though, I argue that fidelity is not only a myth, but also an innately conservative argument that prioritizes "keeping things the same" at the expense of "making something actually good and worthwhile." Fidelity, of course, means faithfulness, but the only other place you commonly hear the word "fidelity" is in the context of marriage and relationships. Who needs to stay faithful? Husbands and... well, really, mostly wives, in the Christian cultural imagination. Why? Purity and sanctity, and freedom from sin, which sounds a lot like fandom purity culture and the Madonna/whore dichotomy transplanted into another realm. Yes, fandom has created a sanctity/sinning, Madonna/whore dichotomy for adaptations. On one hand are the Good and Pure Adaptations that do not stray from the Lord's course (the author's original text.) On the other hand we have The Very Sinful Whore Adaptations, like Rings of Power.

I know a lot of fans had a deep emotional whiplash to Rings of Power, I among them. I was hesitant because I don't trust large profit-driven corporations like Amazon and especially because I despise Bezos (and would support pirating all Amazon material, let's be real.) I was hesitant also because there was such immediate, widespread backlash to the costumes and casting and trailers, it was easy to jump on the bandwagon and nitpick details—backlash that took advantage of my vulnerable emotional state because of how much I care about Lord of the Rings. LOTR, both books and movies, was incredibly formative and important for me and my whole generation, and if it felt like this new adaptation would taint it—well, you weren't alone in thinking that.

(The ROP writers room, of course, operates independently from Bezos and corporate Amazon. But for those participating in the backlash, nevermind that there are hundreds and thousands of dedicated artists and artisans on the show! We hear Amazon, we have an instinctive response that makes us unable to conceive of the show as an artistic endeavor. Still: the writers and artists on ROP are just that, writers and artists. With Amazon's money, they hired some of the best people working in the industry, and from all accounts there wasn't all that much corporate interference. Or... at least about as much corporate interference that Peter Jackson and every other director and writer deals with.)

(Also pause to note that there was immense and similar backlash to the Peter Jackson films as there currently is to Rings of Power. Even think back to the Hobbit trilogy backlash not one decade ago. This is the exact same phenomenon, we just find ourselves on varying sides of the equation depending on our age and experience.)

I'm sorry to say that everyone who jumped on the ROP backlash bandwagon before the show was even released was manipulated and taken advantage of by alt-right, pro-culture-war trolls, tradcaths, and bad actors. I include myself among those duped by the toxic discourse, because as late as March of 2022 I was telling friends I didn't want to hear a single thing about the LOTR show, I was so mad at it already. Mind you that we'd barely had posters at the time, let alone any real information about the show. It was suspect and evil already in our minds.

How do I know it was trolls and not genuine, good-faith criticism driving the response? Firstly, because pop culture divisiveness is a well-known, extremely effective tool of Russian troll farms to further divide democratic nations. There's an excellent academic paper by Morten Bay at USC about how Russian trolls utilized trolls spreading conservative backlash to Star Wars: The Last Jedi to stoke political division. Guarantee you that ROP casting, Little Mermaid casting, Marvel casting, and every other liberal/conservative divide in pop culture has been used similarly by Russian troll farms to stoke American political division. It's not even up for debate—take a look at Bay's research to see the numbers. ROP is a great target for trolls because it's so important to so many people.

Second, conservative Catholic publications published many reviews and thinkpieces that are highly critical of the show. Imagine my surprise then when well-meaning liberals and progressives on Twitter and Tumblr were sharing these pop culture critiques and fully agreeing with them. Unfortunate times when your own baked-in, uninterrogated need for textual fidelity turns out to be a tradcath line of thinking.

Finally, you have only to look at Youtube and Instagram comments on anything ROP-related to see that the vast majority of anti-ROP vitriol is racist, sexist, and/or tradcath and otherwise fascist in nature. I've read a lot of comments because I lack self-control and the complaints really come in one of two flavors: fidelity arguments, and straight-up nasty racism. Or both. Unsurprisingly the two are married, because both types are yearning for an unpolluted, faithful, and ultimately conservative take on Tolkien.

I liked Rings of Power a lot once I actually watched it, though it took me two or three episodes to break through the unfortunate bandwagoning and negative conditioning I had internalized from social media responses. It's not entirely "faithful", which turns out to be a wonderful thing because there are things Tolkien never acknowledged that the show ought to. Like the degradation and dehumanization of the Uruk race. Or the potential for ostensibly noble Elves like Galadriel to dance on the edge of corruption because of her thirst for vengeance. Or (at least I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that they make good on the hints of this idea in Season 2 and beyond!) how Númenor's fall and destruction is an ultimate test of religious faith for the Faithful because how could Eru have allowed it? We could've had a Rings of Power that ignored those themes and subplots because they're not in Tolkien's texts, but it would've been a loss; they're the most compelling parts of the show.

Okay, I promise I'm leading towards a conclusion. It's this: misdirected Percy Jackson, ATLA, and Rings of Power complaints were born from fan culture transposing Christian purity culture onto adaptations, with extreme and emotionally-charged backlash against adaptations that aren't considered faithful. But adaptational fidelity is both an unrealistic goal and an inherently conservative one. Politically and artistically, progressives should be the first to want interesting, new, surprising, compelling interpretations of favorite texts. That's how new ideas and perspectives can proliferate, sparking conversation and ideas and more forward-thinking instead of stagnation and just repeating the same stories endlessly. (Funny how everyone complains about endless sequels and remakes, but the second adaptations make changes people also complain. Can't win!)

But fan attitudes are also revelatory in that they show how much fandom is only superficially progressive. Tolkien fans—even the most liberal—are desperately, slavishly loyal to the Catholic politics of a 20th century white male author (one who, let us never forget, said his Orcs looked like the ugliest Asians [author's disdainful paraphrase.] and the Romantic, Christian-y, black-and-white morality and aesthetics of Peter Jackson's films. ROP's girlboss Galadriel was a funny jokey meme, nevermind that most of the commentary is disgustingly misogynistic; even liberals don't like girlboss Galadriel because, I suppose, ethereal perfect queen Galadriel with an absolutely static character arc is a more compelling character to them? (Unsure why angry rageful Galadriel isn't a feminist favorite on this website—oh, except there's an obvious answer: people's progressive credentials are shallow and uninterrogated, and we don't like angry women who are in the wrong and need to change.)

And then there's Bronwyn, who I've seen criticized for not being a consistent character (as if she should only be a mom or only a leader or only a lover. I think it's realistic and very cool for her to contain multitudes.) Or Míriel, last queen of Númenor who's bound to die a tragic death—I swear it made me want to grind my teeth into dust when I read that this was bad and racist of the writers because she's a woman of color and her storyline involves her getting deposed and dying. As if it doesn't make complete, heart-wrenching sense for a women of color to desperately fight a losing battle against corrupt enemies. As if women of color don't also deserve to be tragic, noble heroines. I think it goes back to the fact that these women contain multitudes, an immense upgrade from Tolkien's women, who with the notable exception of Eowyn are pretty shallow characters.

I almost went and made a caveat here that it's okay for you to dislike the show if you want. Which, I guess, sure, I'm not making decisions for you. But I suspect that if people interrogated their dislike for ROP's Galadriel, Bronwyn, Arondir, Míriel, and other divisive characters, they might find that they're regurgitating what the tradcaths and trolls taught them to say, because the tradcaths and trolls have perfected the art of making you angry on the Internet. Who really benefits from LOTR remaining a 20th century relic of stagnant politics? Traditionalists who want Tolkien to remain pure, white, and Christian.

I do have two main criticisms of Rings of Power, which are the "The Elves will take your jobs!" line (dumb) and occasionally the pacing (needs work.) And other than the casting of Arondir, Bronwyn, Disa, Míriel, and other important characters with actors of color, it's not a particularly progressive narrative in and of itself. But the Internet backlash stems from the sad fact that while we were all happily ensconced in our safe, superficially progressive fandom spaces, we were all duped into the insidious conservative rhetoric that fidelity is good and ROP's a bad adaptation because it's faithless. Frankly, I'm all for faithlessness, provided it's faithlessness in outdated and harmful politics. Let's take back ground from the tradcaths and trolls, and not let them pre-ordain our decisions for us.

[devine-fem]

I kinda love your internalized homophobia Damian hc... It makes so much sense

In Damian's cultures homosexuality is a very "don't show,don't tell" mindset ingrained into their society. Not only in Arab and Asian culture,but brown culture as a whole. I feel like as a queer brown person I can absolutely say in this white dominated fandom,queer yt ppl dont really understand how culture will affect how you see queerness. It's not exactly a bad thing too,just a fact of life that affects queer brown ppl.

I think the only way Damian would see lgbt matters is that they're something that's there,but not as important in his mind compared to other subjects.

Like I believe Damian's VERY knowledgeable on women's rights and women's struggles not only because of how integral it is to history but because he grew up with a single mother who faced those issues in her life. You can't tell me Talia raised him otherwise- plus the only other child he had contact with was his female cousin,who undoubtedly faced such issues while Damian didnt. He would want to learn from her perspective as well,since it's a learning opportunity AND to understand his family on a deeper level.

On lgbt history however,Damian has no experience with. He understands that people have other experiences and partners than the heteronormatity he's grown up with,but he definitely wouldn't understand things like pride month. It's just something he has no experience of,so ofc he's not gonna understand.

It's just like western culture,which Damian clearly has troubled assimilating into. I know there's countries that have "lax" visions on homosexuality,but for YEARS Damian didn't even show romantic interest in girls. Why would he show interest in learning about homosexuality in his cultures if he barely sees ANYONE as romantic interests? Honestly I can see Damian looking at girls and boys similarly for years: they're just people. And Damian struggles to be vulnerable with people,no matter the sex or gender.

I also see Damian not understanding when he gradually sees boys and girls in the same way ROMANTICALLY. It'd be a very hard pill to swallow. Not only is it a whole new experience,but now he's different compared to all of his family members. AGAIN!! This hc has my heart now bc of how much it'd stick to his character struggles,and in dur time,the acceptances he'll make with them...

Tldr: yr hc is very valid and very humanizing!!

Yes, internalized homophobia Damian will always be the strongest horseman. I always write him with internalized homophobia, I mean it barely changes anything.

A lot of people scream that it’s problematic that Damian doesn’t know queer culture but it’s just not true. I fully embrace that part of his character and will always perpetuate that propaganda.

It will always be interesting breaking down any facet of Damian’s relationship with his sexuality. Some things he’s done and said in regard to his sexuality I see right for him in canon, others not so much but internalized homophobia is definitely a something that reigns supreme for me.

[moirtre]

‎ ⋆⠀⠀ʬ.ʬ.⠀⠀٬⠀⠀ THE LOVE MAP OF LETALIS.

trigger/content warnings : shitty behavior & questionable choices.

NAIRA⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀nawanthorn somwan & carter kim.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2009 - present. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    on & off. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    general fandom knowledge.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: naira's tragic relationships can all be traced back the the number nawanthorn, nicknamed true but anything but, did on her back in the 10th grade. the two came from relatively familiar families and although naira tries to deny it, she knows deep down that she's going to end up marrying him because it's what their parents want. constantly on and off, naira and true always come back to each other, no matter how much they attempt to drift away.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2019 - 2021. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    no contact. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    deep fandom knowledge.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: toxic, lowkey obsessive on naira's end. started out as a fun rebound after she dumped true for the 2nd time, turned into a weird dynamic where she gave him the world and he couldn't be bothered to be honest about anything. finally ended when she overheard hwaseong calling her a loser for sleeping with him and realized how weird the whole thing was.

MELANIE⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀hudson taneti.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2011 - 2013, 2016 - present. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    long term relationship. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    public knowledge.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: scoring the hot guy in the year above her was melanie's crowning achievement her junior year of high school. the two met at a house party in 2011 and dove head first into an intense and often publicly problematic relationship. aside from their screaming matches in the school parking lots after his matches, the two genuinely fell head over heels for each other. with hudson leaving college to play rubgy professionally and melanie moving from brisbane to seoul, their breakup gave them the space and time to grow up apart from each other. reuniting, fittingly, at a championship afterparty, they easily picked up where they left off. a frequent presence in melanie's circle, the girls have their own unfavorable opinions about hudson; considering his role in the fallout between melanie and heri. but, none would ever dare mentioning them to melanie.

JUNIPER⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀choi dahae & margaretta young.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2016. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    cordial. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    fandom rumor.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: juniper's first everything. dahae was the first person juniper came out to and their relationship quickly spiraled from there. a lot of sunshine and rainbows and puppy love. the relationship taught juniper a lot about what she likes and doesn't like. but the stress of being completely secret eventually got to dahae who was fed up with juniper's reluctance to come out to her friends.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2019 - present. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    long term relationship. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    worst kept secret.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: it's been said that pearl annoyed juniper into a relationship and it's not too far off from the truth. juniper's fatal flaw is that she doesn't care much about anything. pearl, deciding she would be the one to fix that, stepped up to wiggle her away into juniper's frigid exterior. they're been going steady for a while now as an open secret between their shared fandoms.

EMMY⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀cara chapman-oliver & quinton ong.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2011 - 2012. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    friends. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    unknown.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: cara and emmy were yearmates attending the same finishing school in bristol, england. neither of them took the relationship to be a big deal considering they hadn't ever discussed their sexualities. the relationship was slow though the lines between their friendship and the relationship were often a mess of tangled feelings. nothing much ever happened between the two beyond a long kiss or a short cuddle and by the time emmy had decided to leave england for korea they had already been more friends than girlfriends.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2015 - present. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    long term relationship. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    fully public.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: fans often joke that emmy got the y/n treatment when she started dating quinton and it's all very true. around the time that quinton's band, chaos theory, started performing small gigs in korea, emmy made it her mission to go to as many shows as possible. after her attending three consecutive shows, she was noticed by the drummer and invited backstage after the show. despite the half-assed disguise she'd throw on, quinton was quick to realize she was a member of a blossoming letalis. after emmy was famously accused of being a groupie, apricus would confirm their relationship to the public just a year after they met. the couple is unabashed in their interactions and posts with each other, being one of the most beloved couples within the company.

NARYUN⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀park hyunki & trenton won.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    ? - 2018. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    no contact. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    highly scandalous.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: it's not publicly known how or when naryun and hyunki started dating. the official story apricus gave was that he was the son of her longtime ballet mentor and they began dating in 2014, after naryun's 19th birthday. most fans don't buy the story after naryun accidentally let it slip that she had been dating hyunki for six years in 2017. while it is true that hyunki was the son of naryun's mentor, it's well known that she started dating him in 2011 when she was 16. hyunki, who was seven years her senior, quietly led her on for years. naryun's realization that hyunki had only promised her empty words came in the form of a daintily packaged invitation to the baby shower of his pregnant fiancee in 2018. needless to say, naryun and hyunki do not speak anymore.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2021 - present. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    long term relationship. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    fully public.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: naryun and trenton have known each for over a decade. beginning with his work on the group's debut album, trenton is a staple to the letalis sound. famously, trenton developed an unrequited crush on naryun who was deeply entrenched in her relationship with hyunki. after witnessing the mess hyunki left naryun in, trenton jumped at the first opportunity to be naryun's rebound. although it took two years of sneaking around, trenton finally found the courage to present naryun with an ultimatum. giving in, the couple posted a joint announcement asking fans for privacy and understanding as they made their relationship public knowledge in 2023.

JISEO⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀niels holtz-park & samuel myung.

ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2017. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    friends. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    heavily rumored.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: there really wasn't much to jiseo and niels. they had met in passing a couple of times, he got her number from corey, they dated for like two months, and broke up by the time rumors started circulating about them. they've been pretty good friends since then and niels has contributed to some of jiseo's solo work as recently as last year.

ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2019 - present. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    long term relationship. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    open fandom secret.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: jiseo and sungjoon have known each other since chaos theory started playing shows in korea in 2015. frequently accompanying emmy to their gigs, jiseo and sungjoon quickly established a solid friendship. as jiseo became further integrated into sungjoon's friend group consisting of corey and ian, jiseo found herself in the whirlwind of their wild habits and notorious parties. bonding over their introversion, jiseo and sungjoon would become each other's closest confidante. unfortunately, the very parties that brought the two close would end up dividing them after a particularly dangerous night left sungjoon spiraling. though it would nearly take a miracle, the two were reconciled in 2019, deciding to take the relationship they had avoided seriously.

HERI⠀⠀┉⠀⠀*⠀carter kim.

‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀DURATION    ›    2021. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀CURRENT STATUS    ›    complicated. ‎ ꨄ⠀⠀&.⠀⠀LEVEL OF PUBLICITY    ›    deep fandom knowledge.

 ‎ ‎ ┉       *       ﹙ㅤʬ .  OVERVIEW: a lot can be learned from carter and heri's relationship, if it can even be called one. don't sleep with your groupmate's ex-fuck buddy, don't help each other pick up girls, and most importantly karma often comes in the least expected person. it's been said that carter truly did fall in love with heri who couldn't be bothered to return the feeling. it's also been said that heri's entanglement with carter drove naira mad with envy. interestingly, carter hasn't dated since then, and melanie finds the whole situation hilarious.

[uninformedartist]

look i dont consider myself a proshipper nor an anti (tl;dr, yes people can find catharsis in portraying problematic things in fiction, but there is a point where you’re just glorifying and fetishizing it), but viv is charting with /nicolebsicrete on twitter, who apparently works on hb viz dev.

she ships rick and morty together and likes inappropriate fanart of them

how do u even defend that????

i know we all have feelings about r2 but at least they tag their shit and are pretty blunt about how valangel is a fucked up dynamic that from a psychological pov can be explored and messy. but this bitch is just straight up supporting CP 🤢

TW ahead for this post

Yeah, just addressed this in another post but yeah. Viv is REAL comfortable interacting with these two employees. Was just not too long ago Viv and nicolebsicrete were talking on twitter... (°ω°) about rick and morty ironically.

Nicolebsicrete is VERY passionate on shipping rick and morty, their bio is changed now but this was the old bio and a few posts of rick *gags* × morty they retweeted.

Straight up proship and I don't even want to know if they like... other art of rick×morty 🤢 its disgusting I hate it.

Raphielle sigh, Raphielle while is very explicit on their shipping of Angel, Vox and Val like he is really making it clear he's drawing r*pe shipping art of them and he tags his shit but the glorification of r*pe in his art. I saw someone confront him on his twtter and apparently (as said by them) they're a rape victim aswell and Raphielle had this to reply to them. This is just messed up.

I do agree with you and believe that people especially those trauma and pain can feel cathartic when seeing problematic or sensitive issues portrayed in fiction media and other media, I've seen it happen personally and have personally especially catharsis watching some shows.

But it has to be done with a level respect and shouldn't a glorification of these topics. Raphielle though doesn't, he sees it yes as problematic and a messed up dynamic and there is a sliver of psychological nuance in his art and animatics BUT when looking at the whole picture Raphielle is glorifying r*pe in his art and animatics and gets a sort of kick out of it (I do not kink shame anyone but I'm sorry going to be VERY personal here r*pe kinks and many other egregious kinks I cannot condone, I live in South Africa literally the "rape capital" of the world... I can't just can't condone). Sorry gotta disagree with you there anon.

(Pic has alt text, tw for it)

In conclusion these are both terrible individuals on Vivs team, one is a Proshipper with a ship between a minor and adult AND they're family (pedophilia, incest and cp going on in this ship). And the other has a r*pe ship, glorifies r*pe and finds satisfaction out of it.

[theninthdoor]

hello, how is everything going right now ? I hope you are doing well and that life hasn’t been too hard on you (Venus retrograde has been hitting us all HARD this year I feel)

I was wondering if you could do a reading on how other idols perceive stray kids ? I’m just curious because, despite their pretty big popularity, it kinda feels like they’re a bit isolated and don’t really seem to interact with many other idols as much as I would expect. Also their sound is kinda atypical (especially in their earlier days) in the K-pop sphere so I wonder what other idols would think of that?

thank you so much!

cards: death, eight of cups, temperance, the star

SKZ live very much in their own little world, and it's extremely hard for others to find a way in. I see them walking in sync, finishing each other's sentences, spending all free time with each other backstage at music shows and such… Idols admire their level of closeness, for sure, but it also intimidates them (because they're pretty much like a wolf pack, essentially). Besides, they are clearly on a whole new wave; they have built (not found!) their place in the industry and that, too, tends to keep others away - here, we must consider the competition between groups, the jealousy and insecurity, as well. Groups that aren't as settled and confident as them, as they take in their energy, might, naturally, find themselves feeling intimidated, resentful and/or self-conscious. But, overall, others just see them as a very harmonious, kind and talented group of individuals. No one stands out as rude, greedy or problematic.

(Disclaimer: Based on current energies. All readings are alleged and for entertainment purposes only.)

[popironrye]

What's the appropriate standard for shipping discourse?

Pretty much a vent post on the whole pro vs anti shipping discourse. This is gonna be a long one.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this, but please read the whole thing.

So I like and share a lot of shipping prompts, positive self-ship posts, and no shame attitude to fandom ocs and indulgence in general as a frequent oc shipper. I mean, it makes sense right. I create a lot of fan characters of my own and it's a fun time.

What I can't help but notice is how much more frequent it is to see positive shipping posts with an abundance of 'proship dni' stamped somewhere in the post. I tend to ignore them, as I do not call myself proship because I feel like it's an unnecessary label in shipping spaces, but this one post I saw was a very good self-ship positive post with the same 'proship dni' at the bottom, but the only comment on the post was the op talking about adults being sexual with minors and it made me pause.

If you hear the word pro-ship and immediately think of pedophilia, then I think that's more a you problem than anyone else.

The word 'pro' in proship is a prefix meaning 'in favor of'. As in an 'argument in favor of fictional shipping'. It doesn't mean "problematic shipping", at least not to a lot of people.

But that's where the problem lies. The standards of morality, especially in fiction, is actually incredibly subjective when you think about it and even the darkest of subjects have nuances to why the creator chooses to explore it. Where is the line drawn for what is considered 'the bad kind of proship'? Not every dark theme is created with the intended purpose to 'glorify' it.

You will never catch me defending or engaging in works of biological incest OR pedophilia, I don't care if it's fictional or not/meant to be screwed up or not. I have a problem with those types of subjects, but I certainly won't wish harm on people who do.

But beyond that, there's always the issue with the more pearl clutch types to view other types of ships as morally wrong in all sense, even if the creators don't. Like is it still problematic for fictional adults (both of legal age) because of a massive age gap? Is it problematic to ship villainous characters without completely rewriting them as to not have villainous traits? What about fictional monsters and murders? Are they not allowed to have human dynamics because they're monsters and murders?

Morality isn't as black and white as people think and it REALLY isn't black and white in fiction because fiction should be a place to explore the topics for all kinds of reasons.

In my many years of making fancharacters and sonas, not all of them exist for shipping, but some of the ships I do have are not all gonna be this perfect wholesome cotton candy clouded wonderland of niceness. Characters are flawed, it's what makes them more interesting. While I completely understand a lot of people not liking ships that are straight up abusive and a certain level of toxic (myself included) there are ways to write "problematic" ships in an interesting and thought provoking way.

I've come to a realization something about myself through my sonas. My sona ships either involve giant class difference/power dynamics or some exploitation. Basically it's either my sona lets themselves be taken care of by someone else or they take care of someone.

And for some oc ships, while there are plenty of wholesome cute ones, I've also dipped my toe in morally grey and even villainous personalities. Unwholesome things like mutual drug abuse and criminal activity. Codependent incapability. Brutal enemies to lovers. Actually got a few enemies to lovers funny enough. Huge age gaps (between adults). Master and mentor and of course canon villains being shipped at all.

While none of my ships have the obvious gross stuff people associate with proship, I know plenty of anti ship spaces who would have problems with other ships of mine for being too "toxic" or "problematic".

Basically what I wanna say, if you don't like a ship. Just scroll on. Mute the tags or block the poster, but move on to something you'll actually enjoy. And certainly don't attempt to dox, harass, or tell the posters you hope bad things happen to them.

[compassionatereminders]

Over the last year and half, the emotional abuse in the abusive household I live in hit critical levels, my health deteriorated completely, I lost control of the OCD I didn't know I had and had been suppressing for years, I became so suicidal that I had to be hospitalized, I decided to burn all my friendships to the ground so I could kill myself. Worst of all, I hurt my best friend so badly and continually for months when she was trying her best to help me that she finally walked away and the rest of my friend group all blocked me in disgust.

They have every right to be hurt and I respect why they walked away. I'm even glad they protected themselves. But I feel like it's not fair to write me off for it. I don't know if that's what they've done, but they did it to another friend of ours who turned toxic because she was going through the worst time of her life. Who she was as a person and who she was for all the other years she was our friend didn't matter to them. They didn't just take space from her but leave the door open for her to come back when she took her head out of her ass like I did, even though it was me she targeted worst. I was hurt and angry on her behalf, and I think that was the beginning of the end of my friendships with them too, because that was when I started getting anxious that they'd do the same to me if I became too problematic. It was the OCD and fear of rejection that triggered that finally ended up taking over my whole mind. But even if it ended up being a self-fulfulling prophecy, I think if they've written me off completely like they did our other friend, they weren't that good as friends.

On the other hand I understand and even appreciate that the last straw was how I treated my best friend. If anyone else had treated her the way I did I would be the first to turn completely against them and hold a grudge for it too. It's one thing to hurt me, but it's another to hurt her. The fact that they all blocked me is a sign that they're caring for her the way I wanted her to be cared for back before I turned into a screeching harpy. I don't expect her to take me back but she's also the only person I trust to not judge me and our whole friendship by what I did at my worst.

Basically, I think the rest of them being angry on her behalf is justified, but if they've written me off on their own behalf they can kick rocks. Which is not a thought I have ever had in my life towards someone I've hurt, mentally ill or not. It disturbs me. Simply putting all the hurt I caused to a mental breakdown feels like I'm side-stepping taking accountability when the mental illness was the worsening of behavioural issues I've had my whole life. I've tried to address them but I didn't know what I was doing wrong, and I tended to blow up my relationships right before I got a diagnosis for each of my psych problems. I can never figure out how much agency I had in my choices.

It's all so confusing and contradictory. Is this more self-victimising? Am I standing up for myself or refusing to take accountability?

I'm really sorry you're struggling and hurting, and my heart goes out to you, but a brutal fact of life is that anyone has the right to cut contact with anyone for any reason, and this is a truth we have to make peace with or at least respect.

[quiet-admirer]

Re: healthier variety in feedist fics

How did you escape the shame cycle that helps you enjoy feedist fics that don't essentially boil down to, "hey, everything's okay, gaining weight did not make you unattractive, unhealthy or a bad person, you don't deserve to hate yourself because you're fat" ?

I don't engage in a lot of fics myself, but I've been some level of fat my whole life and struggling with restrictive ED recovery for the last few years. I don't know how to stop telling myself that I just wanted an excuse to be fat without feeling guilty about it, which only makes me feel more guilty about my body and being into feedism. I would be grateful for any advice you might be willing to share.

If I understand right, you're asking about how to enjoy angsty fics without internalizing fatphobic or kink-shamey messages?

I wrote my entire tmi life story below, but the Too Long, Didn't Read of it is that I went to therapy and also had a long, several-years break from angst and shame fantasies and took that time to focus on my own shame about this kink in general before I was able to engage in it in fiction, so now there's a gap between the fictional shame and my own, making it more easily separable in my head and they don't entangle and reinforce each other as easily.

And because I'm incurably wordy, the Too Long of it goes under a cut:

But for me, the way my journey worked itself out isn't what I would necessarily endorse honestly! As a teen and young adult, most of my feedism fantasies were "guy is super depressed and binge eats and gets fat and is distressed about it, partner still loves him and he accepts it and gains more weight." I was definitely trying to process shame about having a weight gain kink: I needed the characters to feel guilty about their weight and then become more neutral or okay with it almost like an atonement - well they're fat and gaining weight but it's ok because they're not happy about it at least!

As I was exposed to body positivity and then eventually fat liberation, I started feeling super guilty about these fantasies and told myself they were wrong because there's nothing shameful about being fat and I shouldn't fantasize about distress and internalized fatphobia like that. I felt bad and a little stupid when I realized that there was that dynamic of "atoning for" my fetish in my fantasies.

My reaction was to avoid fiction with similar themes of shame altogether and to stop fantasizing about these scenarios. In a way it was helpful to put my total focus on other themes and ways of viewing feedism and other tropes, like a bootcamp of sorts. I think I really did need a long break from shame-focused narratives. It made me anxious reading those tropes by that point and there wasn't any fun anymore because all it did was echo what was already in my head that was causing me distress.

But distancing myself from those narratives was unfortunately also paired with labeling that genre of trope as bad or backward or "problematic." I had the mentality that it was just people projecting their shame and I had "evolved beyond that."

There can often be an undercurrent in soft feedist spaces of an attitude like "well I'm a good feedist and fat liberationist unlike Those Feedists who are ignorant about fat liberation and are into degradation or shame kinks, which they wouldn't have if they were enlightened like us" and there was definitely a brief time where I felt that way, even if I probably wouldn't have admitted it at the time lol. I thought that if I was actually committed to fat liberation I wouldn't be thinking up or enjoying stories about unintentional weight gain that causes distress!

But there's nothing wrong with fantasy. There's nothing wrong with enjoying angst or shame it degradation in your sexual fantasies or play!

In the past 4 years or so it's been a slow process of breaking out of those mental barriers. If I'm in the mood to read something angsty, I should get to do that without beating myself up about it! And I like angst in all kinds of fiction! I love the hurt-comfort trope in vanilla fiction, so what makes it bad suddenly once it's about feedism?

And there is something to be said for narratives about working through shame to self-love, especially when we have more variety in the way self-love is achieved that doesn't always end up just mimicking fatphobic dynamics in the way the self acceptance happens (like if the feedee/gainer accepts themselves without input from a thin feeder/encourager for exmple!). Those can often be healing to read for sure!

What really helped me the most though was seeing other people in the feedist community that I really respected and who discussed and promoted fat liberation in the community who shared a variety of their fantasies and fiction, some of which included those themes that I had made taboo in my head. 20/20 hindsight makes it obvious, but I had a realization that oh! You can be a committed fat liberationist and enjoy whatever you want in kinky play! The messaging that "there are no thought crimes" and "kill the cop in your head" also helped me.

Another healing process for me was writing my own fiction. I challenged myself to write something with zero shame about kinks or fatness in it. I was still in the "I'm not allowed to enjoy shame dynamics" stage when I started my current ongoing fic in 2020, and it was kind of shocking to me to find that I had to rewrite the first 3 chapters a literal six times before I weeded out all the shame. I think it was an important step for me to separate my actual shame from fictional shame.

I also had therapy with an incredible kink-knowledgeable sex therapist for about 2 years where I worked on just being able to give myself freedom to fantasize and self actualize about this kink to my fullest extent without holding myself back and without withholding pleasure and connection within myself and with others. It's an ongoing process for sure, but I've come so far from starting therapy in 2020 and crying every single therapy session, and without even saying what my kink actually was until probably a month or so in!

I still don't engage in shame dynamics in fiction very much. I've probably read a handful of angst fics in the past 2-3 years. I have to be in the mood, and I still sometimes come out of immersion in the story by distancing myself with thoughts like "you don't actually believe this in real life, this is just for fun". I guess it's good messaging to give myself but I think it's a step along the process to just being able to enjoy it when I feel like it without having to reassure myself that I'm not a bad person for reading it.

And then other times it can be activating for my own shame so I stop and revisit it another time. It happens!

I don't know if I'm ready to have my own fantasies and stories that I make up with the shame dynamics still. Or maybe it's less that I'm not ready and more that they just aren't a focus of my kink right now. I dunno, I'm having fun with what I'm working on mentally right now, which is opening myself to exploring more of the weirder shit, so exploring shame stuff isn't as much a priority for me right now.

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As far as eating disorder stuff, that sucks and I'm sending good + healing vibes. That was a journey for me too, though I was only chubby for a few years as a kid and didn't have any gaining desires myself until recently, so I don't have much personal directly relevant insight there unfortunately.

For me it was more like torturing myself over the fact that I was supposedly body positive/a fat liberationist/loved and respected fat people/found fat people hot and liked seeing fat people get fatter and yet had a restrictive ed myself and a fear of gaining weight. I felt like such a a hypocrite, but like, brains, man. Eating disorders.

A lot of times with the vague eating disorder thoughts that do come up, I have a "maybe and what about it?" approach. "Not exercising and your weight caused your chronic pain" - "even if that was true, who cares? I just do my PT and I feel better regardless of what caused it." "People are going to judge you because you gained weight, they're going to make all these assumptions about you because your body changed" - "maybe, sure, but who gives a fuck."

So "You're just gaining to give yourself an excuse to be fat" can be responded to like "okay, why not, I can gain weight for whatever reason I want, didn't ask + cope."

Instead of spending time reasuring myself that people don't care what I look like or that there's poor evidence for a causal relationship between weight and chronic pain, I just bypass all that with a "so?" Maybe a gentler approach would work better for you but personally I'm like that "silence, liberal" crab with the laser eyes.

EDs can twist your thoughts and make you think and believe all kinds of shit that you don't actually believe and that don't align with your values. To me almost literally feels like [unreality cw] there's a virus separate from myself that implants thoughts into my brain and distorts my perceptions, like a break from reality almost. It's so weird honestly, the other day I was like "what if I stopped eating cheese" and I was like... "why...? Sounds potentially reasonable but tell me more... 🤔" And it took me 3 days of the cheese thought popping into my head to be like "oh, I am feeling not in control of my body because of chronic illness progression, therefore I am trying to alter my food to feel in control again." It's like it overrides anything obvious and reasonable in my brain and makes me think silly things from The ED Dimension from time to time lol.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, you don't have to listen to those kinds of thoughts or entertain them at all as reflecting your own moral code or beliefs. And you don't have to beat yourself up as being a bad person for having ED thoughts that are shitty about fatness and feedism. You can let those thoughts happen anyway and acknowledge that they have no weight or value to you.

You might not be able to stop your brain from firing bullets at you, but you're Neo and you're dodging them 😎

Far easier said than done, but it can totally be a fake it til you make it mentality along the way.

But anyway, that's just my 47 cents, and it sounds like fat-knowledgeable eating disorder therapy could still be helpful for you if that's something you're able to access!