#but at least in that context the series Is A Romance . the romantic relationship is central to the plot .

[charliespringverse]

i just finished watching the bear last week and i loved it but i literally can't go into the tag on here bc somehow everyone has taken a story about expectations and family and pressure and friendship and teamwork and the primary way people are engaging with it is through shipping :/ like not to be a hater but even in canon the romantic subplots feel forced to me and i don't particularly like them, so seeing people latch on to that instead of everything else the show has to offer is like?? you guys care about all this?

this ‼️‼️ like i'm not immune to shipping & there are some things where i Love (& obsess over) the romances but like ,,, i cannot imagine it being The Only Thing I Want To Talk About . i don't understand how ppl can watch something that is so primarily about trauma and grief and illness and recovery and be like Ah Yes.... But When Will They Smooch........

[lizzybeth1986]

Liam and Olivia: When You Prefer The Side Character To The Main

Series - TRR's Alternative LIs: The Romances that Didn't Happen

Previous: A Brief History of Alternative Romances in Choices

A/N1: My apologies for the length of this one! There was a LOT to explore, and even more that I had cut out from my initial draft.

A/N2: This essay operates on the premise that Liam is not the "favoured LI"/"golden boy" of the team - an argument I have made in detail in other Liam-centric essays. I am not interested in arguing those same points in my comment box/reblogs. Visit the Liam section of my meta masterlist if you want to learn more about that.

CW: Mentions of non-consensual kissing. Mentions of the plot against the MC in TRR1. Very fleeting mention of the "infertility subplot" TRH pushed onto Hana.

(Screenshot from HIMEME's YouTube channel)

As I mentioned in the previous essay, TRR (along with ES, to a far smaller extent) was the only series that seemed to make an attempt to pair even their popular LIs with another character. It also was (along with TCaTF) one of the very few books that hinted at an alternative romance in the first book itself.

This section of the essay series will perhaps be the longest, since Liam x Olivia got the earliest hints, and was built up first. While the other three pairings were introduced or hinted at in Books 2 and 3, the reader got to see glimpses of a possible Liam x Olivia pairing from the finale of Book 1 onwards.

Why An Alternative LI?

TRR is, essentially, a story that hinges on the likelihood of an arranged marriage. The character that makes this entire story possible, Liam, is expected to pick a bride by the end of his social season, whether he is ready for marriage or not. The ending of Book 1 itself ties his ascension as a king to marriage.

(Screenshot from Skylia's YouTube channel)

To prove Madeleine's point, the finale actually shows us that until he picks a fiancèe, he literally won't be addressed as king, but still as Prince Liam. So while this point does get heavily retconned later on in the series, the original story itself required Liam to be married sooner than any of the other LIs.

But Liam's story doesn't just hinge on needing a good Queen for his kingdom. His arc - at least in Book 1 - involved learning that being a good king doesn't mean he needs to sacrifice his own desires or romantic sensibilities. If that were the case, he could have just been stuck with Madeleine. No - the story was supposed to be about Liam learning to validate his personal aspirations without hurting his political position. It was essential then that the woman he picked was someone he either was already in love with (the MC), or someone he grew to love over the course of the series.

When you take this context into account, having an alternative romance becomes not only convenient, but essential.

And if the MC doesn't choose Liam as her endgame...who better for this "romance" than an old friend who has always held a torch for him?

A Romantic Rival

(Screenshots from Skylia's YouTube channel)

As most of the fandom remembers the first book and the trajectory of the Liam and Olivia relationship in it pretty well, I'll try not to go into too much detail. The Olivia of Book 1 has two parallel storylines: the one with the MC, where they first start out hating and then learn to like each other...and the one with Liam, which begins with Olivia assuming she will win the social season, but becoming more and more resigned to the MC's chances of winning as her position in the competition declines.

There is obviously a lot more focus on her dynamic with the MC, for two reasons:

1. Until the MC chooses an endgame, an LI will never show more interest in another person. It will always be the alternative LI whose interest initially drives that side-story. Making an LI reciprocate that interest can result in a negative impression of them, as fans could potentially believe that their love for the MC is not genuine or special. This is the case for all LIs in the series, not just Liam.

2. Narratively, the first book wants to make Olivia's love for Liam their big character reveal. It is the first time Olivia actively opens up to the MC, and is canonically the beginning of their "friendship". So very little emphasis is placed on her emotional attachment to Liam until the Coronation (with her cactus gift and her confession to the MC before leaving), and even less on how Liam feels about her.

Whatever little we do get of Liam and Olivia's dynamic before the finale is focused on their childhood friendship. We learn from Liam that she was a sad, lonely child when they met, heartbroken by her parents' death and the negligence of the aunt who was supposed to raise her. Her attachment to Liam emerges from his support of her when they were children, and we later learn in TRH that he not only supported her, but often empathized with young Olivia and comforted her in ways that didn't give away her vulnerabilities.

Olivia claims at the beginning of TRR1 that "everyone just assumed Liam and [Olivia] would get married one day". Given what we learn later about Constantine and the Nevrakis family (and the fact that no one backs Olivia's claim at any point in the book), it is possible she was exaggerating. But it is also true that until the MC gains more popularity and Madeleine makes her entrance, Olivia is assumed to win the social season quite easily. In the same way that Madeleine is positioned as the "political" rival in Book 1's story, Olivia is viewed as the "romantic" counterpoint to the MC.

From Liam's end, there is actually very little shown about his thoughts on Olivia. It is clear that he cares for her, wants the MC to think well of her and understand her circumstances. While as a child, he comforted her when she was called a cactus by reminding her that they were tough plants that no one messed with; as an adult he is pained by her vindictiveness towards people who haven't even harmed her. There is plenty of grounds here for some sort of relationship, but enough there that shows why the MC who will marry him would be a slightly better fit.

The second half of TRR1 focuses on softening Olivia to an extent - having her and the MC optionally bond over their dislike for Madeleine (who is viewed as the "bigger bad" at this point) and having her only occasionally approach Liam for his company. Her feelings for him come to the forefront only during his Coronation, around the time she withdraws due to the blackmail exposing her parents' attempts to assassinate King Constantine.

This moment in the series completes Olivia's transition from antagonist to a possible friend. The reveal that Olivia loved Liam all along ensures that the MC can sympathize with her for not getting the man she loves, and allows the reader to envision her as a future ally.

To some who already vouched for a Liam-Olivia endgame before the finale, this moment was a confirmation. To others who didn't exactly see Olivia's actions towards Liam as rooted in affection, this moment was a revelation. Whatever it was, this moment made her extremely popular in the fandom.

But this scene also had a more important purpose - it provided players not interested in Liam, a possible out from the situation. The ending of TRR1 hinged on Liam choosing the MC as his future bride, then being forced to accept someone else when the scandal broke out. Book 2 allows the MC to explore what she wants without the expectations of a social season. The prospect of a titled lady who genuinely loved Liam being his potential endgame would make it easier for fans of other LIs. It sounded like a perfect ending for everyone.

The (Unwanted) Kiss, and What It Says About the Fandom

(Screenshots from Danni Stone's YouTube channel)

A scene that often gets ignored (or conveniently forgotten) when discussing Liam x Olivia in TRR1, is the kiss in Lythikos.

The Lythikos Ball in Ch 8 is already a social battleground of sorts for Olivia. She wields her power as hostess here - monopolising Prince Liam's company, and humiliating the MC and her friends with the worst seating and ice-cold food. Things come to a head when - while dancing the Cordonian Waltz with Liam - she forces a kiss on him, completely disregarding his ability to consent.

I use these precise words to describe this incident for two reasons. First, because canon refused to do so. Second, because most of the fandom refused to do so.

Different characters in the story respond to this incident in different ways. A shocked "what a bold play!", a sarcastic "Olivia's growing up, how sweet", and an enraged "she's gone mad with power here!" emerge from the ladies of the court - all focused on Olivia's intentions and actions. None of these responses ever address Liam's end of this situation.

Even more interesting are the options the MC is given to address the situation when Liam speaks to her later.

(Screenshots from Danni Stone's YouTube channel. This is the second dialogue option)

She either speaks to Liam like nothing happened, or engages in victim blaming. Personally I think both options are as bad as each other. Neither of these options include "are you okay?" or "were you comfortable with that?".

Liam's answer to the MC's (optional) accusations is perhaps the only time the issue of consent is even barely addressed (and even here Liam is duty-bound to think of Olivia's welfare over his own comfort). It is appalling that it takes the MC practically victim blaming this man for that to happen. And it is equally disturbing that Liam's response is so apologetic, so contrite, as if this entire situation was his fault.

The kiss is viewed as a number of things in the book: an affront to the suitors who have no power in Olivia's estate, or a political blunder. But what does it mean to the man who had this kiss forced upon him? Would he really feel comfortable or safe around her again after that? The writers clearly didn't know, nor did they care. And most of the fandom was only too happy to follow suit.

The few times this kiss was spoken about amongst the fandom, the question of consent was barely ever addressed. The kiss was either brushed aside as unimportant, seen as an indication of the "love and passion" Olivia had for Liam, or viewed as a manifestation of her jealousy towards the MC. Liam is sometimes seen as "clueless" for not "noticing Olivia's feelings...I mean, she literally kissed him!!" All of which could be true, but it doesn't erase the fact that his consent was never given, nor his comfort with the situation ever considered.

It is doubly ironic given the fandom reaction to the MC's plight in Applewood, after Tariq attempts to kiss her without her consent (though this situation involves significant privacy violations and dark conspiracies, and Liam's does not). The MC's situation was (rightfully) viewed as horrible and potentially traumatising, and many were upset that the emotional impact of it wasn't adequately addressed in the story. It wouldn't be surprising if Liam's situation wasn't viewed on the same level - given the difference in contexts - but the fandom and canon rarely saw this as something that happened to him, without his consent.

Ironically, the fandom never really considered Olivia planting a whole smacker on Liam's mouth as possible "proof" that she could engage in creepy, entitled behaviour...but they did often view Liam as "creepy" for...complimenting diamond-option outfits, or saying romantic-coded dialogues that the MC would reciprocate by default (again - I don't deny this is a problem and those lines should have been coded properly. However one cannot deny the doubt standards here). Olivia was the one who forced a kiss on the object of her affection in canon, but Liam was the one who got so many "abuser" and "harrasser" (and worse!) depictions in fanfic when TRR2 and 3 were out.

I will be addressing this particular scene again in another context, in a later essay in the series. I would like my readers here to not forget this scene, or the (lack of) outrage around it. It would be helpful to ponder over why Olivia's behaviour here is largely viewed as no big deal, especially when other side characters (and at least one main character) could be villainized for far, far less.

Olivia and Liam in TRR2 and 3

(Screenshots from Skylia's YouTube channel)

TRR1's finale and TRR2 show a small shift in Liam and Olivia's dynamic. Now that he is engaged, and in love with a woman who isn't Olivia, their interactions become sporadic and awkward. To ensure that Liam won't be viewed as a cassanova, the narrative keeps their interactions to a minimum. Group scenes that involve Liam often leave Olivia out, and group scenes that involve Olivia exclude Liam.

However, to address the "romantic potential" from TRR1's finale, the book shows Liam and Olivia interact in at least one scene in Ch 10. Here, they have a short, stilted conversation that leaves Liam concerned about Olivia's well-being, and that makes Olivia grieve over her unrequited love for him to an equally concerned MC.

Olivia's story in TRR2 largely centers around establishing her character (snarky, prickly, warriorlike. Much of this is actually a deviation from her writing in TRR1), strengthening her relationship with the MC, and integrating her into the core group.

Olivia's feelings for Liam get addressed again after the MC makes her final choice of LI. The MC's acceptance or rejection of Liam's proposal results in a bit of tension between the two women. If Liam is the MC's choice, Olivia admits to her heartbreak despite being truly happy that Liam has found love. If not, she reveals a slight resentment that the MC could so easily throw away the love that Olivia so badly wanted. The narrative allows Olivia her complicated, ambivalent feelings towards the Liam x MC match, and expects the MC to understand and sympathize. By default.

If you don't choose Liam in TRR3, his romance with Olivia does start here. And by this I mean that Liam is now allowed to reciprocate her affections.

(Screenshots from the Skylia YouTube channel (Drake playthrough). The screenshots aren't in order. 1st Liam x Olivia scene is the handholding at Applewood (5), 2nd is dancing at Vegas (1st two), 3rd is Liam asking Olivia for a dance at the finale ball (middle two), and the last is Liam asking Olivia out (6))

Even in the playthrough where Liam is marrying the MC, his default is to trust Olivia, show her kindness and staunchly defend her to people who suspect her motives. Liam advocates for her innocence in TRR3 Ch 2, even as her family becomes one of the prime suspects. The MC may vouch for her by choice...but if she does choose to suspect Olivia, it is Liam who pushes back against the idea.

By this point, the MC and Olivia can cement their friendship if the former has worked on gaining her trust. If not - the book has already created an inbuilt mechanism to ensure Olivia's loyalty anyway. It is tied to her gratitude and affection for Liam, the one person who consistently believed in her from childhood. Whether the MC makes an effort to win her approval or not, Olivia respects her. Her emotional attachment to Liam as an old friend, and loyalty to her king, ensures that her support is gained by default throughout.

Outside of his own playthrough, though, the narrative does slip in a few extra scenes where Liam shows an obvious romantic interest in Olivia. It's small - he isn't exactly yelling from the rooftops that he loves her - but it is definite progress where he seeks her out for support, dances with her and eventually asks her out to dinner at the finale. The scenes are few but prominent, and leave no doubt to the reader that Liam fully intends to court her.

So...why is Liam still single in the Drake, Hana and Maxwell playthroughs of TRH?

Writer Bias

When you read enough interviews and watch enough livestreams from the TRR team, one thing becomes very, very clear. They love their TCaTF callbacks. And no callback is more beloved to the writers than the repurposing of Zenobia Nevrakis' sprite to create her descendant, Olivia.

In this section, I will focus in particular on Kara Loo, COO of Pixelberry and one of the head writers of the TRR/H/F series. Going by several interviews and social media posts, Kara wrote most of Olivia and Drake's scenes and dialogues (along with "some of the Prince's speeches"), and was in fact the driving force behind how Olivia's character came to be, in the original series.

"...when we were creating Book 1, we wanted an evil redhead to be your antagonist, and Kara said, "Oh, what if we used Zenobia, but the twist is she's a Nevrakis descendant?"" - Jennifer Young, Looking Back on The Royal Romance (Sept 2018)

Kara has openly admitted before to having a fondness for Olivia's particular character type. In an interview with Daily Dahlia, she spoke of Val, one of the TCaTF LIs, in glowing terms that perfectly fit the way Olivia has been written as well:

"I love writing Val Greaves in The Crown & The Flame. I love writing for characters that are a little meaner and will really just say what they’re thinking, even if it isn’t exactly tactful." - Daily Dahlia's Interview with the Pixelberry Crew (Sept 2016).

The love for mean (and white! Don't forget white) women among the team, is pretty clear when you look at the kind of reception TRR's mean white women get.

Notably, Kara does have the occasional nice thing to say about Liam too. In an interview before the release of TRR2, she spoke of how "considerate and loving he is", how "there is nothing mean or selfish about him". As a Liam fan who kept seeing him bashed left and right after the TRR1 finale, those words initially felt like a massive relief.

But now, seeing the way the team treats nicer and more diplomacy-oriented characters in the series, this fulsome praise for Liam's selflessness gives me pause. It reminds me too much of how most of the team swore up and down that Hana would be their choice of LI to marry in a livestream, at the same time that they were slamming an infertility subplot on her in the books. Looking back with the knowledge of how the writers would treat Liam later, praise like this seemed less focused on finding him lovable, and more on ensuring that he gave constantly to the MC without ever getting much in return.

While Liam's treatment is not as bad as Hana or Kiara's, one must take note that the team - esp the head writers - have never really hesitated to throw Liam under the bus or retcon entire chapters and backstories to make characters like Drake seem better than him (eg. The narrative choice to have Drake claim Liam was leading the MC on when they first met in TRR3, which has led to more than one attempt to rewrite the bachelor party).

Part of this could be attributed to just the fondness for a specific character type. But I do think that with Kara in particular, ideology also plays a role in her preferences. There are at least two interviews from the team where her liking for darker, more violent storylines has been mentioned. In TRR3 the team affectionately called some of their brainstorming sessions with Kara as "Kara's trail of bodies" (one idea was to kill off Madeleine in Lythikos), and in the TRF livestream they mention that she initially wanted a war storyline.

This leaning towards a more militaristic mindset shows...in the care that Kara takes for Olivia's dialogues and especially her spy scenes (tho such scenes actually don't contribute much to the plot). In contrast there is a subtle disdain for the more diplomacy-minded characters shown in scenes where Olivia's ideologies are measured up against theirs (eg. Any scene where Hana and Olivia are supposed to work together, or the vast difference between the "valiant" Lythikos tournament and the "ridiculous" Castelserraillan flower competition in TRH3).

Even though it is often the diplomacy that saves the day at the end, the framing always highlights the militaristic way of thinking more positively. Given that Kara writes a lot of Olivia, and a fair amount of Liam, it's pretty obvious now where her (and the team's) particular bias may lie.

Because of this bias, it became far easier for TRR's writers to lean into popular fandom myths when it suited them, or pander to a particular section of the fandom. Which is the subject of my next section.

Fandom Entitlement

Olivia often has two types of fans - the ones who wanted to ship her with their MCs in canon (and couldn't), and the ones who wanted to be "bestieeeees!" with her. The frustration of the former was rooted in the fact that wlw had only one romantic option, but I will not be talking about them.

The latter were found in plenty among the Liam, Drake and Maxwell stans - all of whom either viewed her as an ally to win over (Liam), or as someone to push onto Liam, so they could romance the men they preferred in peace (mostly Drake and Maxwell. Some Hana stans but not as many).

As I'd mentioned in an earlier section, Olivia's final scene in TRR1 allowed people who didn't want to romance Liam, to envision a narrative 'out' for themselves. By the time Olivia reappeared in TRR2 Ch 5, she'd gained a cult following among many, many fans. A lot of them were actively rooting for the start of a romance between Liam and Olivia, and very few resented her for her feelings or begrudged her past actions.

But there was one downside. The intent among the majority who rooted for this pairing, was more about "getting Liam out of the way", than any actual romantic potential. Because of this, certain Liam x Olivia stans (ironically, the Drake romancers were the loudest voices in this group) felt a ridiculous level of entitlement towards this pairing.

A number of readers insisted on having Liam fall for Olivia immediately, wanted him to show feelings for her instantly, and complained when he didn't do so while his (optional) romance with the MC was still on.

Olivia's sad, longing gazes in TRR2 propelled many a reader to complain about what an awful situation poor Olivia was in and how insensitive and uncaring Liam was (even in the face of screenshots that clearly showed him worrying about her desolate mood). One of many examples comes from a post in Feb 2018 - a Drake stan's written walkthrough of TRR2 Ch 10, and ironically the following lines were made above a screenshot set that clearly showed Liam noticing how sad she was and worriedly asking the MC about that:

Liam finds you and as always, can’t help fawning over you. This time Olivia is right there and he is like, Oh yeah, Olivia, you are too here, hi. She definitely notices, gets upset, and leaves because she really does love him and she is third choice at best.

This was not the only one. There were multiple posts like these, and they often positioned Olivia as a figure of sympathy, yearning for a love that would never be hers. Liam in these readings was always positioned as someone who "didn't care" and later, "didn't deserve Olivia".

When he did start showing an interest in Olivia in Book 3, it went largely unnoticed by most of the fandom, even though he was romancing her in at least 3 out of 4 playthroughs. There were very, very few posts made about any of these romantic moments. Instead, from Chapters 3 to 10 of TRR3 - where Liam didn't show any indications of heartbreak re: the MC - certain Drake/Maxwell fans made posts complaining over his not pining over the MC, or theorizing that some of his friendly attempts to educate the MC about the country had to have been done with more than friendship in mind.

This section of the fandom often got insane amounts of pandering from the writers themselves. When TRR3 returned from a hiatus post Ch 9, we were suddenly hit with more scenes involving Liam's "heartbreak" (it featured sporadically in all three of the other playthroughs, but you could tell it was tailor-made for the Drake one because it got referenced there waaaay more) before the big battle with Anton. Fandom spoke far more on these scenes than on the ones they got for Liam x Olivia.

What was completely missed was that such "heartbreak" scenes happened because there was a demand from readers who weren't even Liam stans in the first place, and the same stans didn't hesitate to flip and label him "desparate" or "pining" or write fanfic where he was an absolute creep in response to a thing they asked for!

As for talk of the Liam x Olivia ship post TRR3, the phrase "sloppy seconds" started to be used often to address the pair after the series ended, and there were quite a few posts claiming that Liam didn't deserve such an incredible woman like Olivia.

(Edit Source: the playchoicesconfessions Tumblr blog)

Using the pining subplot that nonLiam stans had asked for, some of the same people would insist that Olivia "deserved better than to be sloppy seconds" (at some point after TRR3, I noticed that even some Liam stans would say the same!). This argument often came hand-in-hand with the lie that Liam never cared for Olivia enough (as one can see in the edit above). It also often hinged on the premise that the MC was Liam's first love, that he wouldn't (and shouldn't!) ever get over her, and that anyone else would rank as second best to him. And while I agree that Olivia deserves a partner who would wholeheartedly love her, this argument seemed to come from people who were eerily reluctant to imagine Liam leading a happy life without the MC.

Tbh, the fandom at large has always had a very confusing relationship with Liam as a character. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said that from TRR2 onwards, making Liam a scapegoat was a very popular reading from the fandom. He was often expected to live up to impossible standards - way more than the other male LIs - and criticized incessantly for dialogues and action that the other two could easily get away with.

Many fans were (rightfully) frustrated by how Liam could have romantic lines by default (which the MC would by default reciprocate, to their chagrin) all through TRR1 - while ignoring romantic default dialogues from Drake - but also complained when Liam responded more calmly than expected to her rejection of his proposal. They also didn't like that he could be largely neutral/merely friendly towards the MC for most of TRR3. Damned if he didn't, damned if he did.

I'm not saying that this was the viewpoint of the entire fandom. There were people - yours truly included - who pushed back against such a biased view of this pairing. Against a view that insisted on centering only Olivia's feelings, while either badmouthing Liam for not returning her love, or ignoring the times when he did. There were people who pointed to canon for proof that he cared.

But enough voices vouched for this other, more unsavoury reading that "Olivia deserves better than to be Liam's sloppy seconds", that it became quite popular. That it became the accepted view in canon too, when the writers began work on TRH.

Olivia x Liam (not), TRH and Beyond

As we all know by now, Liam x Olivia did not happen in TRH. After a dance and an invitation to a date in the finale, Liam was back to being single and uninterested in any romantic relationships (like all the other LIs). It went to the point where he was ready to appoint the MC's future child as his heir (heir apparent, not presumptive. The fandom mockingly dubbed him "Rumpelstiltskin" for this). At the time, I imagined that perhaps the narrative was trying to erase the pair altogether, since no other LI got paired up either. It would be fair.

This wasn't exactly the case. In fact, in my opinion, what they managed to do was much worse.

(Screenshots from the HR Gameplay YouTube channel. Liam is renamed "Rayden" here)

Savannah's bachelorette (TRH1 Ch 7) has the MC and the ladies "address" certain pairings that were hinted at in TRR3. One doesn't get addressed at all, one addresses the LI by name only if the playthrough isn't the one where the MC is married to him.

Olivia's is the only one that got addressed regardless of whether the MC was married to the man she had wanted or not. And looking at the scene now, I really, really wish they didn't write it at all.

If the MC encourages Olivia to talk about her feelings for Liam, the latter shows anger and resentment over Liam not choosing her twice over. This, despite the fact that he did attempt to date her the previous book. This, despite the fact that he never indicated interest until he actually felt it. This... despite the fact that not returning the feelings of someone who likes you romantically is a normal, natural thing that said someone should accept without judging other person!

In fact, the fandom was more than willing to view other LIs "not returning feelings" as normal, natural and blameless...so why did only Olivia get sympathy and praise for her unrequited love, and why did only Liam have to be criticised for the same?? Even in THIS scene??

Liam x Olivia would not be referenced for 3-and-a-half books after this, until the very end of TRF. Over the course of the series, the team tested her compatibility and possible chemistry with at least two side characters. One was Jin, the Auvernese spy that Olivia fights with in TRH1 Ch 19. While they did seem to have some banter in the first book and a smattering of scenes in the second, interest quickly died down and Jin was written out of the story once the Auvernese royals' scandals were exposed.

TRH3 then hinted at Amalas x Olivia as a pair, peppering hints as early as the introductory chapters. There had been a few murmurings among the fandom for the same, since a number of wlw were fond of Olivia, and people liked headcanoning her as bi or lesbian (in fact, when the team claimed in a TRH1 livestream that having Olivia as an LI would "soften her" too much, the fandom protested). Amalas x Olivia was met with more approval than Jin x Olivia, and in TRF you could encourage Olivia to ask either Liam or Amalas for a dance.

Liam himself never got any other options for romance (understandable, none of the LIs did), and in fact had several aspects of his story chipped away, chunk by chunk, to benefit other characters. In the end, Liam is treated like Olivia's "alternative LI" than the other way around.

It was a pretty ironic ending for a pairing that people felt so entitled over in the beginning. After years of protests against Olivia being Liam's "sloppy seconds" just because he chose her after being rejected by their MCs... the narrative didn't mind treating him like some sort of "consolation prize" (one of two) for Olivia. And as expected, nor did the fandom.

Conclusion: Could This Pairing Have Worked?

Much as I dislike it now, I did think Liam x Olivia had some potential back then. Politically and emotionally, Liam and Olivia were opposites in many ways. There was a lot you could explore. Their background history and the sweetness of their childhood story had the potential to add layers to their dynamic.

But for a pair like Liam x Olivia to work, romantically, some things would need to change:

1. Respect in the writing room for both their ideologies, not just Olivia's. If you view one with adulation and the other with disdain, that will eventually show in the writing. These two could have been a solid power couple if the team could just set aside their boners for violence and knives once in a fucking while.

2. THE KISS. If you're going to have that kind of a scene around, especially in the context of TRR1's larger story, it needs to be addressed. From Liam's point of view. With Olivia openly regretting it and atoning for it, and Liam getting to choose how to handle that. It isn't just enough to assume they spoke offscreen, and then pretend the forced kiss never happened or that that violation meant nothing.

Olivia was wrong. Olivia crossed boundaries. Olivia disregarded Liam's consent. Liam was the victim here, not the person the MC should be shouting at - even by option.

If a romance should proceed between the two, that kiss deserves to be addressed with a lot of sensitivity and respect to Liam's own experience.

3. BALANCE! Between their perspectives, their viewpoints, their beliefs. Which would only be possible if you equally valued both characters.

4. Respect for Liam's feelings and his romantic choices, whatever they may be. Liam knows what he likes best. Him not returning Olivia's feelings is not a crime, nor does it make him any less of a caring person. Him falling in love a second time, seeing an old friend in a new light, should have been embraced as a concept.

Loving someone else deeply in the past shouldn't make his feelings for his second love any less genuine. But most of the fandom adopted such a way of viewing the Liam x Olivia relationship because it allowed them to pity Olivia and blame Liam (again) - and the team validated those sentiments out of excessive care for one character, and a lack of it for another.

Changes like these four would have definitely made for a better-written alternative romance. But given the kind of team and the fanbase TRR had, none of the changes I mention here would ever have a hope of becoming a reality. Olivia is too popular, too beloved to her writers and fandom, (and too white!) to be viewed with even this much of a critical eye. And tbh, once the fandom has marked a character (esp a character of colour - customizable or not) as a scapegoat, they would enjoy bashing them too much to stop. From then on, it would only be a matter of which excuse, which nitpick, which set of double standards, would work best.

Liam and Olivia had potential. And the narrative was able to get that story to the point where the two could at least have a first date. But team TRR squandered all its future possibilities in the mad rush to pander to a portion of their fandom, with a clear bias for the side character...and so we will never know how a more balanced portrayal would've looked like.

A/N3: I have quoted posts that have actually appeared on Tumblr, but without any identification marks. All of them are one among many such posts - either lost to digital decay or hard to find. I do not want to call out any of the individual posters - I want to make it clear that many of these posts are indicative of a fandom-wide problem. Do not try to find out, or harrass, these posters.

Next - Maxwell and Penelope: When You Like the Side Character So Much, You Gift Her A Shiny New LI

[jjs-brainrot]

So I've finally read How Do We Relationship? by Tamifull

(spoilers for up to chapter 121 ahead)

What exactly is a relationship? Is it some natural part of the human experience where you pick a life partner? is it a social contract between individuals to ensure exclusive romantic and sexual feelings between each other? Is sex a requirement for a relationship? Is romance even?

I don't know to be honest. What I do know is this: How Do We Relationship? by Tamifull hit me like a truck and then backed up over the corpse.

It might be one of the most nuanced, unflinching and uncompromising works about understanding relationships I've read. I think, in general, a lot of romance fiction feels overly wishful. While I can certainly appreciate a good gushy and feel good romance, it kinda gets tiresome seeing the same "will they, won't they (they will eventually)" and "love at first sight (it works out even though they literally have no chemistry)" stories regurgitated over and over again.

So much of it just feels too fake for me. Like I'm not watching two characters come to understand and fall for each other, I'm watching two halves of a couple who only exist to be a couple. Chemistry? Completely optional! Hardships? Temporary and will only make them love each other more afterwards. Break ups? Reserved exclusively as a failure state or for purely abusive relationships…

What sets How Do We Relationship? apart from its peers is its commitment to understanding its characters as people rather than archetypes. People who each have their own wants, fears, feelings towards sex and romance and most importantly: their own personal definition of what a relationship should be. People who when confronted with each other think they understand how everything should go, only to find out that the other person has a completely different understanding that doesn't fully jive with theirs.

The only yuri series I can think of that does something similar is Yuri is My Job! by Miman. Yuri is My Job! focuses heavily on the idea of fake relationships in Class S stories with it frequently asking "what actually makes something a relationship?"

A lot of Yuri is My Job! is primarily a critique on Class S stories first (possibly also a direct refutation of Maria Watches Over Us… I still need to watch MariMite so I can't say for certain) with a lot of its characters being subversions of classic Class S archetypes. So a lot of its dissections of relationships are done in the context of Class S stories.

That being said, seeing a series directly refuting the idea of a relationship being static and instead coming to the conclusion that the only ones that can decide what a relationship is are the people involved? That stuck with me. How Do We Relationship? is far a more focused dissection of what it means to be in a relationship, or at least, what means for its particularly cast of characters.

Take, for instances, our two main characters: Miwa and Saeko

Miwa and Saeko start out as friends, but after coming out to each other and finding out they're both lesbians, they decide on a whim to date. At first glance, they seem like the perfect couple! After all, they bounce off of each other's personalities really well, enjoy each other's company (both out and about and in the bedroom) and in general seem to care for each other quite deeply. They were made for each other, right? Well, no.

They're both individuals with vastly different personalities, experiences and feelings from each other. Over time they begin to see things in their relationship that bother them. Mostly little things here and there. Nothing they want to start a fight over or strain their relationship over at first but… Small wounds still fester. It eventually finally comes to a head a little bit after Miwa visits her old crush in a high school reunion. It's very clear to both Saeko and Miwa that she hasn't actually gotten over her past feelings for her high school crush. What's more clear to Saeko is that Miwa doesn't feel the same level of love for her and she does for Miwa. Eventually they just… break up and go back to being friends.

In most romance stories, a break up is regularly seen as either the ultimate failure state for a relationship, a temporary set back for a relationship to overcome or purely as an escape valve from an abusive or just kind of shit relationship. The reality is that there many different reasons for a relationship to end.

Could Miwa and Saeko have worked it out? With the path they were heading down, no. Neither of them were willing to fully open up about their problems as both feared hurting the other. Which just ended up with them hurting each other even more. If they had continued the course, their break up might have been far more painful and resulted in them not being able to be friends any more.

And they do get to go back to being friends even after being exes!

I think back to my aunt who divorced her husband several decades ago. They ended their relationship but decided to remain close in part for their daughter's benefit. Over the years they've remained close friends and have gone back to living with each other as well. There's no hard rule that becoming exes means you have to fully cut each other off if that's not what you both want. Certainly there might still be mixed feelings between you both (Miwa and Saeko's relationship as friends certainly takes some huge bumps after they break up), but you shouldn't follow along with what society expects from you both in a relationship versus what you both want from YOUR relationship.

And that right there is Tamifull's thesis statement with How Do We Relationship?: don't determine how your life and relationships should be based on what society expects them to be.

Tamifull doesn't hold back anything when it comes to depicting how society treats relationships in general but also how it treats gay people in specific. While the physical danger of homophobia is always a constant that makes many queer people not want to be open with their queerness, being constantly other-ed in most social situations (whether intentionally or not) can frequently be reason enough to want to stay in the closet. Insensitive questions (that are more often born from ignorance rather than malice), being always seen as an outlier, frequently having to lie about who you like and a million other microaggressions that just build up as extra hardship in a queer relationships. Relationships are already not easy to keep together, but adding additional outside stressors can strain them even harder. Enter Shiho.

Shiho was Miwa's aforementioned high school crush whom she reconnected with during a high school reunion. After Miwa and Saeko's break up, Miwa started keeping up contact with her more and more and eventually has the opportunity to meet with her again. Miwa goes to meet with Shiho in order to confess her past feelings for her. Miwa is fully expecting to get turned down but when she meets Shiho, Shiho seems far more receptive and warm towards Miwa than she was expecting. Whatever mental protections Miwa had against the idea of actually having her feelings reciprocated crumbled as it seems like Shiho might have feelings for her as well? Could she actually get together with her old crush?

Unfortunately, while Shiho does have feelings for Miwa, she doesn't feel strong enough to deal with all the baggage that comes with being in a lesbian relationship with Miwa. She very clearly put a lot of thought into the subject, and while she does care for Miwa, she just can't put herself in a relationship with Miwa. Shiho isn't in the wrong about her own feelings and she doesn't invalidate Miwa's. But it still ends up breaking Miwa far more than if Shiho had out right rejected her.

External factors can have a major effect on relationships but internal factors have arguably far more impact on relationships. Namely: sex and romance. Or more specifically: how everyone has different levels of interest in sex and romance.

Figuring out that I was ace and aro took way longer than it probably should have. "I have no interest in having sex with someone but I still get off to porn so clearly I can't be ace!" was legitimately a thought that stopped me from fully embracing being ace for several years. Eventually I figured out that sex-repulsion isn't a requirement of being ace and that the ace spectrum covers a pretty wide variety of experiences under it and that my own is just as valid as the others.

Over the years I've had to engrave a pretty simple idea into my soul: there is no universal experience when it comes to sex and love. Regardless of whether you're allo, ace or aro, you'll have very different feelings towards sexual and romantic interest than everyone else. Let's take, for example, Rika.

Rika is one of the supporting straight characters of the cast. She's also arguably the most sexually active member of the main cast with easily the highest body count of them all. And yet she does not want a relationship past friends-with-benefits. I'm not sure if she's necessarily aro or just not currently interested in a romantic relationship, but the point is that the main thing she wants from her relationships is sex. And that is completely fine! It sucks that when she explains this to dudes she just fucked who want to start dating her that she only wanted a sexual relationship with them and they respond by thinking she must have some family issues that make her so sexually active (she doesn't) or they respond derogatorily that she's just a slut. That's just part of who she is, there is nothing wrong with her. If she was a guy, it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow.

And then on the flip side, you have Tamaki.

Some time after Miwa recovered from her heartbreak over Shiho (and after being sex friends with Saeko again for a bit), Miwa starts dating a year younger kouhai by the name of Tamaki. Tamaki is asexual/alloromantic, she very much has romantic feelings for Miwa and even enjoys kissing and looking at Miwa's body, but she has a very low sex drive. Miwa, on the other hand, has a pretty high sex drive. Tamaki and Miwa together might be one of the best depictions of an allosexual and asexual relationship I've ever seen.

I've know a number of aspecs who've gone through a similar situation as Miwa and Tamaki. Some are certainly able to come to an understanding with their allo partners about each other sexuality, personal boundaries and fulfilling each other's needs in a way that's healthy for both parties. But a lot end up in similar situations as Miwa and Tamaki.

Where in one or both partners feel like they're hurting each other. Some aces feel guilt over not being able to provide for their partner's sexual needs, even if their allo partner assures that them feeling comfortable is far more important to them. Some allos might feel like they're raping their ace partners when they have sex, even if their ace partner expressly gives consent because they want satisfy their partner's needs, even if they themselves don't get anything out of the experience. If you get both together, you end up with a feedback loop of self hatred where the ace person sees their own lack sexual interest as actively harming the person they love and the allo person sees themselves as a monster for wanting to have sex with the person they love.

It's a toxic situation to be in, but it's also one that's hard to leave as both parties feel they themselves are in the wrong and their solutions to correct their error (the allo refraining from asking for sex and the ace more freely offering up sex) just lead to the situation escalating to the point of serious damage to one or both parties.

And unfortunately, that seems to have happened to Miwa. As of writing this, we're at chapter 121 so we're still early on the current arc, but it's looking like Miwa breaking up with Tamaki has done a number on her sex drive. I'm no expert on fluctuations in sexual interest due to trauma, so I won't dive too deeply into this (especially since we're still so early in the new arc). However, associating your sex drive as something that's actively harming your partner to the point that you leave them even though you still love them? Yeah, that's going to cause some damage.

I could ramble on and on about other aspects and topics that How Do We Relationship? does so well (Yuria/Saeko insecurities and dependencies, Saeko/Miwa's brief stint as friends-with-benefits, etc), but I've already said far, far more then I was originally already planning to say. So I think I might have save them for some future posts if I remember them.

So to finally end this now very long essay, I return to my original question: "what exactly is a relationship?"

I don't know, I ain't a cop. Whatever you and your partner(s) say it is, is what it is. But watch out though!

[waitmyturtles]

Turtles Catches Up With Old GMMTV: A Honorable Mention For War of Y, and Another Look at How Thai BL Talks About BL (With a Bonus Watch of BL: Broken Fantasy)

[What’s going on here? After joining Tumblr and discovering Thai BLs through KinnPorsche in 2022, I began watching GMMTV’s new offerings -- and realized that I had a lot of history to catch up on, to appreciate the more recent works that I was delving into. From tropes to BL frameworks, what we’re watching now hails from somewhere, and I’m learning about Thai BL's history through what I’m calling the Old GMMTV Challenge (OGMMTVC). Starting with recommendations from @absolutebl on their post regarding how GMMTV is correcting for its mistakes with its shows today, I’ve made an expansive list to get me through a condensed history of essential/classic/significant Thai BLs produced by GMMTV and many other BL studios. My watchlist, pasted below, lists what I’ve watched and what’s upcoming, along with the reviews I’ve written so far. Today, I take a look at the more recent attempts by the Thai BL industry to critique itself with War of Y and the mini-documentary, BL: Broken Fantasy.]

2022's War of Y. Let me start this piece off by saying that this show is not good. My friend and BL elder educator, @bengiyo, once said about the OGMMTVC project, that some people (LIKE ME :'( ) just have to look into the abyss to satiate their curiosity about how this genre has developed, and that's definitely a point of the OGMMTVC. Not all past Thai BL shows are good, not by a long shot, and I don't recommend War of Y if you're watching dramas for pleasurable experiences only. (If you want to watch a GREAT drama that critiques the Thai BL industry, start with 2021's Lovely Writer, and I'll get more into this later.)

War of Y, directed by the chaotic Cheewin Thanamin and the I-am-assuming-to-be-misanthropic-and-indulgently-self-righteous-and-preening Den Panuwat, gave us 20 episodes of what I believe they thought to be groundbreaking critical art about the currently Thai BL industry. Let me set up an outline so that I don't spend too long on the bad stuff, and explain why War of Y does at least get an important mention (but not an official inclusion) on the OGMMTVC list.

1) What was War of Y about, how it was structured, and some quick high points, 2) Comparing War of Y to other pieces of Thai BL fiction that did a better job of critiquing Thai BL culture, and 3) A close-out reflection of Aam Anusorn's 2020 mini-documentary, BL: Broken Fantasy.

War of Y, as presented by Cheewin and Den, is designed to be a meta-drama of four chapters, all examining a specific aspect of the Thai BL industry. The first chapter, led by Billy Patchanon and Seng Wichai, focuses on two ship partnerships competing with each other, to the mental detriment of one of the older ship's celebrities; the second chapter focuses on two HORRIBLE warring managers; the third chapter showcases, in excruciating detail, god help us, a Y idol reality show, replete with singing; and the final chapter depicts the creation of a BL series and the rise of another super celebrity, whose career potentially gets derailed by his relationship with a female acting colleague.

Before I get into the few high points, I just want to say that this bloated structure (four chapters of five episodes each) did not do this drama well. It could have been edited down GREATLY for more succinct messaging. The other major issue I had is that the Thai BL genre -- as a romance genre itself, that demands romantic and coupled endings -- is just not the right genre to meta-critique the industry from which the piece of art comes from, not unless you're the screenwriter of Lovely Writer, who deftly managed some very complicated storylines into true art. There was no deft to War of Y. Couples got together in pandering and condescending ways, because that's how a Thai BL should end, right (?!); HORRENDOUS warring enemies suddenly made up with barely any context except to make money, and so on. I kept saying to friends during my watch that in a Den Panuwat show -- the worse you are as a character, the more likely you are to be redeemed for seemingly no good reason.

[Exhibits B and C in Den Panuwat's screenwriting record of questionable human characteristics? Fucking Only Friends and Playboyy. THE WORSE THOSE CHARACTERS WERE, THE BETTER THEIR OUTCOMES. Yeah, we really wanted those assholes to end well. ANYWAY. (I am committing to never watching a Den Panuwat show again. ANYWAY.)]

But there were a few high points. Actually seeing a Y idol reality show, something that international fans may not be able to appreciate with a lack of subtitles, was at least eye-opening for the inter-related nature of these kinds of shows, with some performers subsequently getting series gigs. (I understand that Santa Pongsapak, of My Own 12%, is an example of this kind of performer, who started out first as a music idol trainee.)

And the acting. Some of the acting was EASILY the best part of War of Y, as it very often happens in questionable Thai dramas: Billy (BILLYYYYYYYY), First Piyangkul, Dome Waruwat (who we most recently saw in Cooking Crush, and who absolutely SLAYED as one of the SLIMIEST, GROSSEST characters EVER, ohmygod), and

SENG MOTHERFUCKING WICHAI

(who will win one of the crowns as one of THE BEST FUCKING ACTORS IN THAI BL at the conclusion of the OGMMTVC project)

were easily the best reasons to watch War of Y. The range of Seng Wichai. It's ironic that he left Idol Factory last year, ending the BillySeng ship, and was then disgracefully treated like utter crap by the media and BL fans for the reveal of his relationship with Freen Sarocha. That, in itself, could make for a heartbreaking drama about the BL industry, but alas. We have War of Y instead. Seng is a motherfucking hero, and is also the KING of cringe, playing a horribly behaved actor who learns to overcome his insecurities to stand up against the advantages taken unto him by greedy managers.

We also had MANY wild and crazy cameos from real BL professionals in the show. @twig-tea and I agree that director New Siwaj's cameo was BAFFLING. He played a BL director (which he actually is) who maybe hated making BLs? (Maybe he actually hates it?) But still does it? And was mostly checked out of making the BL-show-within-the-BL-show, until he was called out about it, and then behaved like a good boy. Like. That cameo, along with a literally-evil NetJames and an even more inexplicable and weird literally-evil MaxNat cameo (wtf, that wasn't filled out AT ALL), were the really weird ones. The sad ones were ones like sweet NuNew Chawarin telling young BL guys that they have to sing (NO THEY DON'T). There was actual!Tee Bundit telling off Seng Wichai's character, that was rad. Director Lit Phadung of SOTUS and Dangerous Romance (😬) was there. Even the original novelist for Thailand's first television BL, Love Sick, was there, playing herself as Kwang Latika, who complained to a producer within War of Y that the show-within-the-show (yeah, I know) was taking her novel out of context. That shit sounds familiar! I could have used more accurate commentary on that.

The last high point that I can muster is that the show began to toe the line of the issue of actors needing to explore their sexualities for art's sake. As fans, we truly do not have much insight into this process, and I think it's for good reason, so as to protect actors (wherever they land on the sexuality spectrum) from very real, emotional, and sensitive processes and workshops that prepare them for taking on queer material. We know that actors like Nanon Korapat from Bad Buddy use Method techniques in their performances, and that can be mentally draining. Do I believe that some actor pairings experiment with dating, and may actually be in relationships? Yes, I must believe it, considering the psychological work these young men have to do to build attraction to each other for art's sake. The CEO of Korea's Strongberry studio confirmed as much earlier this year.

Unfortunately, I think War of Y leveraged these very sensitive realities to blatantly and flippantly indicate that ships can be ASSUMED to either explore sex with each other, and/or to even assume that they SHOULD be in relationships, à la the television BL romance formula that I mentioned above. I think this show could have transcended the romance genre formula, frankly, and I think the show came kinda close to doing that in the last chapter with First Piyangkul -- but not before setting up First's character, Achi, as a cheating monster-machine who was willing to go to great lengths to protect his fame, including outing his trans-female ex-girlfriend and co-star (YEAH, THAT HAPPENED), as well as separating himself from his ship and sexual same-sex partner while still indicating that they were dating. The whole storyline was just -- BLEH.

As I chatted with another fabulous BL elder, @twig-tea, about after I finished War of Y, clearly, Cheewin and Den thought they were intellectual geniuses upon the creation of this show, thinking that a BL itself would be a sufficient mechanism to offer meta commentary about problematic aspects of the BL industry (IT'S NOT). Twig wisely said to me that a writer or directly simply CHOOSING a topic to explore vis à vis a BL -- like a criticism of the industry itself -- is not, in of itself, worthy of laudation. And Cheewin and Den were CLEARLY expecting flowers by the end of this drama. If you've ever lived in smelling distance of southern California, you'll know that entertainment industries love nothing more than to talk about the entertainment industry, and that they think that fictional drama art is the best way to obsess over the vagaries of these industries (IT'S NOT). Instead, Cheewin and Den basically outed themselves as economic shippers and idiot faux-savants who are clearly in the game for fame, and maybe the dudes themselves, which -- BLEH REDUX.

On the OGMMTVC list, Lovely Writer does such a better job at covering the latent homophobia and judgments against actors within and external to the industries that take on BL. War of Y actually teed up a LOT of interesting topics, such as the BL-to-het-drama-and-studio pipeline that I talked about in my past OGMMTVC KinnPorsche pieces -- but these topics in War of Y just instead drowned in misanthropic meditations about fame, sex, and money that seemed far more suited to reaaaaalllly-bad Cinemax than, say, a proto-documentary.

The OGMMTVC syllabus also has YYY, from 2020, as a first entrée to BL-commentary-within-BL (and funnily enough, YYY also stars Lay Talay, who was the main anchor of War of Y, and was actually fantastic in both shows). YYY is a lot more succinct, CONCISE, zany, weird as HELL, incomplete, INSANE, not the greatest show, but HILARIOUS, simply in part because of its different and wonderful writers in Fluke Teerapat (a former BL actor himself) and Tanachot Prapasri. If you're looking for commentary about BL within wild-ass fiction (and if you're willing to watch it with shrooms or a fifth of vodka), watch YYY. (And remember that you're really watching YYY to watch Poppy Ratchapong eat his role of Porpla totally alive. Utter brilliance.)

Otherwise, as a means of complementing this review, I also watched 2020's non-fiction mini-documentary, BL: Broken Fantasy, by Aam Anusorn, another Series Y director who made the documentary, perhaps in part, to atone for past BL shows that he made, like 2Moons2 and Call It What You Want.

BL: Broken Fantasy featured interviews from directors, actors, and actual fans, about the nature of shipping, what the industry demands of actors, what fans themselves demand, and offered even a little bit of insight from two HUGE actors, Bright Vachiwarit and Win Metawin of 2gether and Still 2gether, about the process itself of young men acting in a queer coupleship.

The documentary is perhaps too short for its own good. And it sets up Aam as an unwilling participant within the BL industry, seemingly not knowing about what he was getting into when he first started making BLs (2gether's director, Champ Weerachit, also presents this way, which I found a touch disingenuous, as they were literally filming 2gether in the documentary).

But BL: Broken Fantasy hammered on a couple of important and real points. The economic benefits of shipping are HUGE. The sponsorship deals, the fame, the money -- they literally make young actors very rich and very well attended to. The fans EXPECT shipping performances, so that they themselves can situate themselves as caretakers or "mommies" to their young flock of boba-eyed actors that they worship. And for directors who want to earn money by making filmed art: the budding industry offers them that opportunity in growing spades. ( @lurkingshan will be happy to know that of all people, Aof Noppharnach, confirms to the documentary's audience that BL is a romance genre of love stories. As if there was any doubt, playa!)

At this point in time, in 2024, if I want a meta-critical understanding of the BL industry, and its many impacts on queer populations, fan bases, and Asian and global society, I'll go to Dr. Thomas Baudinette's Boys Love Media in Thailand and choose the academic route. We are SO LUCKY now to actually have tremendous academic discourse on the genre and its impact on media, fandoms, queer society, and global and regional acceptances of queer equity.

As opposed to the roads that academics are paving, War of Y allowed itself to bloat and gloat, on behalf of its creators, about their desires for shipping, for lavishing attention on beautiful young men, without offering us objective insight into the mindsets of these gentlemen who are important artists and creators in many of the shows we love. There needs to be a space for fair and objective criticism about an industry that may, at many times, take advantage of these young men. While there were many industry cameos in the show, the most frequent cameo was Den Panuwat himself. That enough should tell us what this show was ultimately really about.

[Well, as you can tell, I am fucking DONE with War of Y, laughing my azz off, and -- I'm off to greener pastures. I'm taking a cute and quick break from the OGMMTVC to devour Japan's anime version of Cherry Magic for an upcoming comparative (and totally self-indulgent) Big Meta on Thailand's and Japan's versions of that franchise. (And I have also been watching Fully Booked, AMA.) But I've got a long-awaited rewatch of The Eclipse coming up, to explore how GMMTV handled homophobia as a centered topic head-on, and from there, I go back to Idol Factory to watch Thailand's first GL, featuring the lovely FreenBecky, in GAP.

AND THEN: HOLY SHIT! FINALLY! My School President. I can't wait.

Here's the latest of the OGMMTVC list. If you've got any questions or comments about the syllabus, just mosey on over to this link and drop a comment my way!

1) The Love of Siam (2007) (movie) (review here) 2) My Bromance (2014) (movie) (review here) 3) Love Sick and Love Sick 2 (2014 and 2015) (review here) 4) Gay OK Bangkok Season 1 (2016) (a non-BL queer series directed by Jojo Tichakorn and written by Aof Noppharnach) (review here) 5) Make It Right (2016) (review here) 6) SOTUS (2016-2017) (review here) 7) Gay OK Bangkok Season 2 (2017) (a non-BL queer series directed by Jojo Tichakorn and written by Aof Noppharnach) (review here) 8) Make It Right 2 (2017) (review here) 9) Together With Me (2017) (review here) 10) SOTUS S/Our Skyy x SOTUS (2017-2018) (review here) 11) Love By Chance (2018) (review here) 12) Kiss Me Again: PeteKao cuts (2018) (no review) 13) He’s Coming To Me (2019) (review here) 14) Dark Blue Kiss (2019) and Our Skyy x Kiss Me Again (2018) (review here) 15) TharnType (2019-2020) (review here) 16) Senior Secret Love: Puppy Honey (OffGun BL cuts) (2016 and 2017) (no review) 17) Theory of Love (2019) (review here) 18) 3 Will Be Free (2019) (a non-BL and an important harbinger of things to come in 2019 and beyond re: Jojo Tichakorn pushing queer content in non-BLs) (review here) 19) Dew the Movie (2019) (review here) 20) Until We Meet Again (2019-2020) (review here) (and notes on my UWMA rewatch here)

21) 2gether (2020) and Still 2gether (2020) (review here) 22) I Told Sunset About You (2020) (review here) 23) YYY (2020, out of chronological order) (review here) 24) Manner of Death (2020-2021) (review here) 25) A Tale of Thousand Stars (2021) (review here) 26) A Tale of Thousand Stars (2021) OGMMTVC Fastest Rewatch Known To Humankind For The Sake Of Rewatching Our Skyy 2 x BBS x ATOTS (re-review here) 27) Lovely Writer (2021) (review here) 28) Last Twilight in Phuket (2021) (the mini-special before IPYTM) (review here) 29) I Promised You the Moon (2021) (review here) 30) Not Me (2021-2022) (review here)

31) Bad Buddy (2021-2022) (thesis here) 32) 55:15 Never Too Late (2021-2022) (not a BL, but a GMMTV drama that features a macro BL storyline about shipper culture and the BL industry) (review here) 33) Bad Buddy (2021-2022) and Our Skyy 2 x BBS x ATOTS (2023) OGMMTVC Rewatch (Links to the BBS OGMMTVC Meta Series are here: preamble here, part 1, part 2, part 3a, part 3b, and part 4) 34) Secret Crush On You (2022) (review here) 35) KinnPorsche (2022) (tag here)  36) KinnPorsche (2022) OGMMTVC Fastest Rewatch Known To Humankind For the Sake of Re-Analyzing the KP Cultural Zeitgeist (part 1 and part 2) 37) Honorable Mention: War of Y (2022) (for the sake of an attempt to provide meta BL commentary within a BL in the modern BL era), with a complementary watch of Aam Anusorn’s documentary, BL: Broken Fantasy (2020) 38) The Eclipse (2022) (tag here) 39) The Eclipse OGMMTVC Rewatch to Reexamine “Genre BLs” and Internalized/Externalized Homophobia in GMMTV Shows (watching) 40) GAP (2022-2023) (Thailand’s first GL)

41) My School President (2022-2023) and Our Skyy 2 x My School President (2023) 42) Moonlight Chicken (2023) (tag here) 43) Bed Friend (2023) (tag here) 44 La Pluie (2023) (review coming) 45) Be My Favorite (2023) (tag here) (I’m including this for BMF’s sophisticated commentary on Krist’s career past as a BL icon) 46) Wedding Plan (2023) (Recommended as an important trajectory in the course of MAME’s work and influence from TharnType) 47) Only Friends (2023) (tag here) (not technically a BL, but it certainly became one in the end) 48) Last Twilight (2023-24) (tag here) (on the list as Thailand’s first major BL to center disability, successfully or otherwise) 49) Cherry Magic Thailand (2023-24) (tag here) (on the list as the first major Japanese-to-Thai drama adaptation, featuring the comeback of TayNew) 50) Ossan’s Love Returns (2024) (adding for the EarthMix cameo and the eventual Thai remake)

51) Dead Friend Forever (2024) (thoughts here) 52) 23.5 (2024) (GMMTV’s first GL) (thoughts here)]

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hello again! First I just want to say a big thank you to you and @virginiaisforvampires and @cbrownjc for answering my really long DM ask awhile ago! <3

I’m again going to presume that during the first four episodes Daniel will keep having flashbacks causing him to realise that there is more to the fallout of the 70’s interview than he might at first suspect. He will probably remember Armand’s ‘Gentleman Death’ speech, which might cause him to fear Armand. Resulting in the new character telling him he should fear ‘the other one’ (presumably Louis) instead.

I’m really curious about the, “You fear Armand. You should fear the other one”, does this character know of Armand’s concern and/or history with Daniel? Might one assume that the character knows about Louis attacking Daniel, and possibly is more acutely aware (than Daniel) of the destructive nature Louis actually carries fairly close to the surface (Paris fallout comes to mind). So the words could simply be a warning to Daniel, who possibly at this point is quite relaxed with Louis but nervous of Armand. If this new character is basically a ‘body-snatcher’ looking to gain access to an immortal vampiric body - are they playing the long-con by befriending Daniel to gain access? Could I be on to something here? I agree and remember that Louis and Daniel will team up during this season, so I’m assuming Louis won’t attack him again - but is there anything that Daniel should fear during this season? Is there a threat?

I saw the interview, talking about next season but I’m not as optimistic as some that the relationship/romance referred to was meant to be DM/Daniel’s and Armand’s. In context of the whole interview it sounds more like it’s talking about Louis’ and Armand’s relationship. If DM stuff is revealed or takes place in Dubai I’m pretty sure it’s a secret that they wouldn’t talk about in interviews. I mean - it’s a pretty great twist, and it makes so much sense to me that a lot of the writers apparently are stage writers. Love it! I really want to see DM take place and the memory-erased dynamic play out that the TV series has set up, but I am worried that I’m getting carried away and what we get might be much more minimal - and that fans will hype and then get disappointed.

The idea of Armand and Daniel bickering/fighting during the interviews for the season to then end up revealing to Daniel that *surprise* this guy who has been annoying you, has revealed himself to sure be romantic but also scary controlling and is someone you’ve rightly started to fear is the love of your life - is pretty darkly comic in the best of ways! I would freaking love it. What do you think? I’m pretty much all in for f*cked up relationship dynamics, since the characters are all fun and interesting. I’m very invested in Louis’ and Armand’s romance too, looking forward to it playing out and I like hearing that the show decided to be more romantic with it! Freaking love all the actors - and I’m so happy to watch a TV series which is actually creative and compelling!

Is there anything related to DM you would wish to see play out this season? Sorry for long ask again! Less questions this time at least haha (sorry!). Again, love visiting your blog and reading all the speculation! Thank you!

:) Hey!

Yes, the "you should fear the other one" IS incredible interesting.

I mean, there is this canon passivity to Louis, a passivity that is almost a chosen trait, because when he snaps... he snaps. (I still hope we will get the "passivity speech" in s2, I think it is such an important one, and Jacob would just rule).

But... trailers are meant to entice, to hint, but also to misdirect. Sam said in the q&a video that there would be other vampires in s2 as well. I... I am not 100% convinced that comment in the restaurant was wrt Louis.

That does not mean that Louis is not to be feared!! I just... this could be a red herring. Who knows, maybe it has to do with the twist.

(What if (speculating!!) Daniel then turns to whoever Justin Kirk is there and goes: "what other?" Why is that "other" vampire not named? Why does the Justin Kirk character know Armand at all? Why does he know about the vampires in that apartment??? (And yes, he could be already be so interested in it all because the idea for the body theft is forming!) Why does he know Daniel might be in danger from that other vampire? You know?^^)

So. It could be Louis' carefully hidden destructive tendencies. Maybe. (Which, btw, Armand used skillfully in Paris, I mean, he literally orchestrated it all for Louis to destroy the coven, a win-win situation for him, lol.)

But I'm not convinced that is what Daniel should fear. Would fear. If modern day Daniel fears anything, then I think that has to do with something he remembers. The cage comes to mind, for example. The hunt.

Rolin's latest comment re Dubai does come to mind... as much as I think that Louis and Armand do actively love each other (including physically and I really hope they enjoy(ed) themselves!), but... I cannot see Louis go and have "fun" in interview-time-Dubai. I mean, the interview is happening over a few days real-time. Can you see Louis, the Louis growing more and more upset, depressed and crying and wanting to remember feel like having sex? For example? I think we might see Loumand sex scenes in the past, but in Dubai??? I'm... not sure.

And so... that leaves us with Devil's Minion. I'm not sure how much of the past of it will be revealed, but... I think there's a higher chance for sexy times in Dubai for them than for Loumand. For setup reasons 🤷🏽‍♀️

I also think that the relationship dynamics will be as messed up as they can possibly make them. While I expect Loumand to be extremely tender (I believe Assad called it that), I do think that Jacob's comment that Louis's time at the "murder mansion" was "one of the happy times" for Louis and that statement of "same shit, different vampire" needs to be factored in as well. We're talking about Armand after all :) Given the show likes to put its fingers into wounds I believe that will be a creeping realization... a slow, uncomfortable feeling (in contrast to the more open problematic things Loustat displayed). There is a "controlled" aspect to Loumand, because it was orchestrated (in Paris).

Devil's Minion... DM is about obsession, and almost helpless love. There will be tenderness as well, but also very high, messy emotions. It's not planned, it's not exactly healthy either, it's not (yet) with a happy ending.

As per what I would like to see in it...

I'm not sure. I want them to go full-in, in whatever aspects they choose to give us this season. The cage I would love to see, also as an echo to Lestat being tortured, maybe.

This season is about painful, uncomfortable realizations and repercussions of previous actions.

That goes for them all - and so what I hope for is what we'll get I bet :)) (At least nothing of the trailers, interviews or BTS pix has given me reason to believe otherwise^^)

Hannah Moscovitch said this season would destroy us, and I believe her... and I want that, badly :)))

[wlwmk]

I'm a fan of both ATLA and LOK and I'm not a diehard shipper of anyone in particular. I'm curious what you think... 1. My friend who introduced me to both series and who is a devout Zutara, says that Makorra (which is also her ship btw) is an apology for not making Zutara canon. 2. Why do you think they broke them up in season 2? That's the one part I was scratching my head about. Granted season 2 is my least favorite of all the LoK seasons.

Hi!

For the context I only watched tlok for the first time back in 2020, so I started to ship Makorra until that year. Also I don't really root for any atla ship, but I'm an ex zutara shipper tho

Apparently, that's what I heard around, especially seeing how Zutara is still popular nowadays and the streets are also saying Makorra was pushed by Nickelodeon to make a romantic plot for the only tlok book which was originally planned, which makes sense to me.

So this can explain that as soon Bryke got the green light for the next 3 books guess out of pettiness to keep control they planned and did EVERYTHING to make them break up, but splitting the main couple is often a plot choice in fictional medias bc the most interesting thing about romance is the tension and slow burn between the characters, which what they did in the following seasons by baiting Makorra all again until the very end (to the point even the staff of the show believed in Makorra endgame like Mako's VA and the others script writers didn't even knew about that other couple being endgame, there's even proofs of them complaining about it online)

So they did with Kataang in the first show, guess that's their specialty to make a decision about the endgame couple last minute. With the zutaras who rooted for Makorra ending up being clowned a second time 🐀 (sidenote, there's also many kataang shipper who love makorra! so I don't know if this really a good point to see things like that?)

Then for the second point, I already gave some ideas higher, but I think anyone has their opinions on it. Personally as a makorra shipper I didn't mind them breaking up in book 2 I even thought it was a good idea if they did came back together later on showcasing how they evolved, grown and mature they are together compared to their first relationship, but they didn't so-

[theflyindutchwoman]

There is an opinion that Chenford appeared under the influence of the audience. If I remember correctly, the showrunner once said that Lucy and Tim would not be a couple, that Chanford's popularity came as a surprise to them.

It seems to me, if not Plan A, then Chanford was plan B. The creators in the first series placed a morally broken man (a drug addict wife was prescribed to the character right away, perhaps a tyrant father too) and an empathic woman (her character was also prescribed one way or another initially) in a confined space (a police car). I don't know…

What do you think about this?

Full discloser : while I started watching the show around the time Day of Death aired, I wasn't particularly paying attention to the behind the scenes and interviews at the time. So this is probably going to influence my answer in one way or another.

You remember correctly though : Chenford was not originally planned. Here's what Alexi Hawley (showrunner) said on the subject - and I think this touches on the second part of your ask : "Tim was always designed to be a character who was much more complicated than he seemed, and Lucy was always designed to be a really strong, empathetic character, but I think [what we’ve seen] is the magic of chemistry that happens that you just can’t know when you’re writing a pilot." (source)

What really started Chenford was Eric and Melissa's chemistry… Backed by the writing and the actors' understanding of their characters. To me, it was clear that Tim and Lucy were always meant to share a special relationship for the points you covered, romance or not - which, by the way, doesn't lessen the beauty of their story in my eyes. They were always going to be the most important person in each other's lives. Bring the best in each other. Their dynamic was developed with so much love and care, with so many beautiful and emotional scenes and this, from the very beginning… Alexi himself wrote some of their key moments : their meeting, the quarantine house, Tim turning down his promotion for Lucy… to name just a few of the very early ones. But the romantic undertones? That was mostly the actors' doing, probably not even intentionally at first. And that combination, that magic, is what caught the eyes of so many, I believe.

The other thing Alexi said at the time (s3), was that Chenford would never happen, since Lucy was Tim's rookie : "Tim would never cross that line. She’s his rookie and he would never even consider crossing that line. So while I’m obviously aware that there’s a big ‘shipping there, and I appreciate any kind of passion about the show, that’s a huge line [to cross]. […] We’d be hypocrites [to write a Lucy/Tim romance] because we made it very clear in those first four or five episodes that female officers unfairly get tagged if they sleep with cops, and it’s why Nolan and Lucy couldn’t be together — and ultimately I think that was the right move. I mean, he was on the rebound from a 20-year marriage and she was 20 years his junior, and so it worked out the way it was supposed to, but if we turned around and threw [Lucy and Tim] together, that would be somewhat hypocritical.”

Now I remember reading many times that Lucy x Nolan was supposed to be endgame, but I never found any official interview : by the time I started the show, that idea was entirely buried so that may be why… But if it was the original plan, I applaud Alexi for adapting so swiftly without insulting the audience for forcing his hand. Some showrunners should take notes.

In any case, this is where this idea that he was opposed to Chenford started - at least, to my knowledge, there were probably other interviews. But in this one, this isn't exactly what he's saying. The context is very important, and unfortunately, was often forgotten in the various articles that derived over the years from his original interview. Lucy was still Tim's rookie and this is the line he is talking about. For reference, even Eric, who was already the captain of the ship, agreed with this (back in the beginning of s2) : "It’s something that Bradford would never organically do, being a superior to her." (source) (in all fairness, it does say later in the same interview that he doesn't rule it out either). And honestly… I agree with them. I enjoy reading fanfics that explore this alternative, but in the show, I'm really glad that they waited. Power dynamics are a real thing, so I appreciate that it was not just swept under the rug. And the writers unwittingly backed themselves in a corner with the reason used to break up Lucy and Nolan. They needed to explore Tim and Lucy's dynamic further first, unravel everything and wait for her to graduate. To get her to a place where she no longer cares what others might think.

But I don't believe Alexi was completely against Chenford at all : again, he wrote so many romantic moments… Case in point : the interview is from s3 and yet, he was behind that 'Save me a dance' scene… So clearly, he already had a vision for them, no matter what he was saying on the record. I personally always take these interviews with a grain of salt because the writers/actors are basically told by the different publicists/PR the main points they should address.

Now the audience probably influenced his decision, yes… The way the network made sure to bait the fans made it clear that, at the very least, they knew where to focus in the marketing department. But I don't think that was the only factor. So many shows have very strong fandom, and yet they never go further than baiting. That's actually the usual MO : bait but don't commit, since so many networks are still afraid of that infamous 'Moonlighting' curse (even though it is getting better nowadays). Abc is no exception.

At the end of the day, regardless of what was said in interviews, the showrunner and the writers still created these wonderful characters and developed this relationship in a loving manner… That's the thing that matters to me. So even if it wasn't his idea, even if he was completely against it, he at least listened to his team, to the actors, letting them improvise and even rewrite some parts. And that's actually how it should be done even if, unfortunately, this is far from the norm. I may not agree with every decisions he has made, but in that regard, I respect him for doing much better than many of his counterparts. However, I realise that this is also easy for me to say this since I'm sure I missed a lot of dramas in-between… That might have changed my perception. I hope this answers your question :)

[retiredficwriter]

me? being tagged by @jetsteelyourheart ?? what an honor!

just like the top 5 favorite characters: Make a poll with 5 of your favorite rarepairs/crackships. See which one is everyone's favorite!

i became too invested in this. some of these ships i haven't thought in years, so it was nice to relive the times i was obsessed with them. i narrowed it to one ship per media/fandom and just like my tag-buddy, I'll provide my questionable reasons/propaganda.

REASONS/PROPAGANDA

Sydney Sage/Trey Juarez:

so when i was first reading bloodlines, i read online that sydney gets a human boyfriend in book 2. i had heard about brayden but never in the context of HIM being the boyfriend, so i thought he was the random dude in book 1 (wasn't he, unironically, called hayden??) who asked sydney out. i was theorizing who that boyfriend would be until my brain went: "omg.... IS IT TREY??" and got soo hyped. i loved their interaction in book 1 and thought exploring them in a romantic setting would be so interesting, especially with the implication of trey having a major role. they are so similar (growing up in a cult, daddy issues, both being smart) and yet, trey has some adrian-like traits?? charming, popular in the dating pool, laidback... and it would create some tension between sydrian??? imagine adrian watching trey and sydney date and feeling discouraged because she found a human "version" of him?? and with trey being a warrior, he would try to get sydney to have the alchemist side with them and push the "moroi are evil" narrative, creating more doubts for sydney to rebel! BUT THEN SYDNEY HELPS TREY REBEL AGAINST THE WARRIORS!!

i love their friendship as is, and know for a fact they wouldn't last that long but man... i would have eat up their failed romance.

bonus point for an adrian/sydney/trey polycule

Rachel Berry/Sam Evans:

ah yes. my first ever rarepair. since that one episode in season 2 where she and finn helped sam with his young siblings, i fell in love with them. if you were in the glee fandom, you know every single couple was problematic one way or the other (this is the writers' fault). yet somehow, every relationship sam was in, it was the healthiest the woman he was with ever had. and i wanted that for rachel! i ate all the crumbs this show gave me, which were... almost nonexistent. the big difference between this rarepair and the others on this poll is that, in the show's final season, THEY BECAME CANON. I WAS SO HAPPY. they were very unpopular because it came out of nowhere and the writers only put them together to give rachel a love interest for the final season (and give the storyline they planned for finn to someone else), which... fair. but he was so caring, encouraging her to follow her dreams and telling her the tough truth about things she didn't want to hear. it was so good to see rachel heal from finn and her failed broadway dreams while with sam. (also she was less insufferable with him).

but then, ha... they broke up on the third to last episode of the series. so she could be with jesse who showed up out of nowhere on that same episode, after he "left" 4-3 seasons ago. don't get me wrong - i love st. berry! jonathan groff and lea michelle have chemistry! love ambitious broadway wannabes being a power couple! but why not, i don't know, put the storyline she had with sam with jesse instead so it could be more organic and avoid crushing my dreams???

i'm fine. not bitter at all. I'M FINE. I'M F-

Clarisse La Rue/Silena Beauregard (PJO):

this isn't a rarepair compared to the previous two, but within the pjo fandom, it isn't as popular (surprisingly?? at least in ao3. i'm so out of the loop). first time reading pjo, little old only thought of clarisse and silena as best friends. but as i got older and read more fan analysis of the series, i realized the tragedy of these two. either 1) clarisse had an unrequited crush 2) they dated and didn't work out 3) it was a failed situationship. the daughter of ares, the girl people in camp-half blood are so scared of because she is mean to everyone and can (and will) beat the shit out of them, had a wholesome friendship with the daughter of aphrodite, and one of the nicest people in the camp?? and this friendship appeared because silena helped clarisse with her "boy problems"??? and then clarisse basically protected and comforted silena after what happened with charlie?? no spoilers for those who haven't read the books, but they parallel a famous greek mythology couple and their ending hurts. still love silena/charlie, but god... poor clarisse...

can't wait to keep rereading the books and suffer once i get to their part!

Gary "Eggsy" Unwin/Roxy Morton (Kingsman)

everyone prefers hartwin and merlin/eggsy, but i can't help but love mortwin. i watched the first movie and loved their small moments. loved how they bonded over being the underdogs in the competition and, instead of becoming sworn enemies, they recognized each other as worthy opponents. their small fun, friendly-rivarly banter was cute. part of me was relieved they stayed as friends in the end... but i couldn't help but be soo disappointed. the chemistry? it was there!! even taron egerton said there was potential to explore a romance if given the chance! plus, i'm a sucker for well-developed friends-to-lovers.

never watched the sequel but after reading what the writers did to roxy, i'm glad i didn't and never will. i can now create my own sequel in my head and read fanfics of the story they deserve 😌

Bella Swan/Leah Clearwater (Twilight):

i want to thank this one brazilian fanfic i found years ago (and never wrote down the name and lost it 😔) for presenting me with this ship. everyone talks about bella/alice, bella/rosalie, bella/carlisle... but what about bella/leah??? think new moon, when bella has just been abandoned by edward, meeting the werewolves through jacob and therefore leah, who is still dealing with the whole paul/emily thing. they can still start out with leah hating bella but they can bond over being abandoned by their boyfriends and heal from it, and in the end realize they don't need them anymore - they can have each other!

i also love if edward still comes back and bella is conflicted, and it's a edward/bella/leah love triangle (apparently people ship edward/leah and how i never heard of it?! imagine the drama!!) i will take anything where jacob isn't involved

tagging @morocorra @forcebookish @artianaiolanthe @sydneysageivashkov + anyone who wants to do this!

[midnightstargazer]

why I, as a Regulus stan, don't ship Jegulus

With the disclaimer upfront that I'm not saying nobody should. I know I have mutuals who do. Y'all are cool. We can ship and let ship. But I don't ship them, and here's why.

I don't care for how Regulus is usually characterized in the context of Jegulus. I prefer him redeemable, but morally gray; someone who was influenced by family and peer pressure but ultimately made his own bad choices and later changed his mind, not someone who was forced into every bad thing he ever did. I'm sure there are Jegulus fics out there where he is more morally gray. But from what I've seen, he's often a bit too sanitized for my taste.

I don't care for how James is usually characterized, either. Sunshine boy who wants to believe the best of everyone? I don't see it. In canon he's very loyal and caring towards his friends, but there's no evidence he would have a nuanced point of view towards someone like Regulus, particularly during their late teenage years when Regulus is actively espousing blood supremacist ideology and working for the Death Eaters.

(Which doesn't mean I think Regulus is unworthy of love. I just don't think it's likely James, specifically, would have liked him very much during the time period when they would have known each other in canon)

Because of this, I can only imagine Jegulus in a context very far removed from canon: either a Muggle AU, a no Voldemort AU, an AU where Regulus runs away with Sirius, etc. None of those are very interesting to me. It could also work if Regulus survives and ends up in the Order, which is a favorite trope of mine, but I'd just as soon see that with a different ship or no ship for Regulus and keep Jily together.

I ship Jily. Which isn't necessarily an obstacle, because I'm willing to multi-ship basically anybody except Tedromeda. I can totally get on board with the idea that one or both of them had another relationship before they got together, or that in a canon divergence story where one of them survives, they might eventually move on with someone else. But because I do ship Jily, I'm not really looking for someone else to ship with James.

Who Regulus ends up with romantically, if anybody, is the least interesting thing about him imo. I'll read fics where he's paired up romantically, and I've written a few of them - although I also have a long ongoing series where he's aro-ace. Having a romance arc for Regulus at all is 100% optional as far as I'm concerned.

The "best friend's brother" thing - I think it mischaracterizes Sirius's relationships with both of them to assume he would be overprotective of Regulus and suspicious of James if they were to get together. I love fics where the Black brothers reconcile, but still, I doubt they'd ever have such a stereotypically normal sibling relationship. And that's not even getting started on how it undermines Sirius's friendship with James.

Its sheer overwhelming popularity annoys me. No offense intended to anyone who likes it. Your personal preference is valid. It's the expectation for everyone to share that preference that I don't love. A lot of the time in the Marauders fandom the pairing is simply taken for granted as the default. So that does make me dig my heels in a bit.

[suchine-toki]

hello! I read your Tae meta from last year and just wanted to say it was great and really gets to the bottom of the problems with how Sorachi handled Otae. My (unasked for ;)) two cents is that I think he was going for GinTae endgame but then changed his mind somewhere before Lesson 238 which I read as his way of giving a 'this is how it would happen but I'm not going to do it' resolution for GinTae. And it's fine to drop the romance but knowing he's not going to make any couples endgame and 1/2

Hi! First of all, thanks for reading and taking your time to send this to me, I really like hearing other people's thoughts! I hope you don't mind that I combined both asks, given that they've points in common and I already had a draft of the one I received a while ago 🙈 This made me realize that I hadn't thought about it too much before… Even if I've talked about this topic with other people before, usually, the conversation ends with us agreeing and moving on to other topics lol so I think this is the first time I'm analyzing it. I'll try to do it from both the characters' perspective and Sorachi's intentions as the story's author. Before continuing, I want to clarify that my intention isn't to convince anyone to stop liking it, I just wanted to explore this topic that I hadn't paid much attention to before. And wow, did I explore it, because it ended up being much longer than expected 😂

That said, I think one of the biggest reasons why many of us thought Tae was going to be Gintoki's main love interest is because of the setup. Tae is the first woman from the main cast to appear in the series, and her dilemma kickstarts the story and allows for the formation of the Yorozuya as we know it. Moreover, she's Shinpachi's older sister and also develops a strong bond with Kagura, so it was expected that she would also develop a strong romantic bond with Gintoki, connecting her to the main trio of Gintama.

However, as I've mentioned on other occasions, things started to change with the introduction of Kyuubei, which solidified the Kondo-Tae-Kyuubei love triangle, and then with the introduction of Tsukuyo. I watched a video by Abbie Emmons titled "7 Deadly Romance MISTAKES Writers Make ❌ avoid these chemistry killers!" to help identify some points in the relationship between Gintoki and Tae, although I must mention that I don't think these were mistakes on Sorachi's part, quite the opposite, they were very conscious decisions. I won't go point by point; instead, I'll summarize the intent of the message.

Half of the video is about the development of intimacy between two characters. I think most of us can appreciate that at least until the Benizakura arc, it was clear that Sorachi still had in mind to develop the relationship between Gintoki and Tae romantically because they'd a scene where they were alone, had time to talk, and showed that they cared a lot for each other. However, as the series progresses, we stop seeing these kinds of scenes between them, as well as scenes where they're seen thinking about each other or having physical contact.

And although at the beginning of the series Tae participated more actively in the Yorozuya dynamics, after the introduction of Kyuubei, they're seen spending most of their time together, even when they're with the others. Tae remains an honorary member of the Yorozuya until the end, but it's clear that Sorachi wanted her to represent stability, emotional support, the place they can return to that will welcome them with a smile. So, even though Gintoki and Tae still care a lot for each other, their interactions will continue to be framed within the context of the Yorozuya for the rest of the series.

That said, I couldn't say exactly when Sorachi stopped considering a romantic relationship between them. I'd to look up chapter 238 because I didn't remember what it was about lol (for reference, it's the one where they're at a stall and there're only speech bubbles, in which other characters who look like Gintoki and Tae confess they're in love), and I think your interpretation is certainly interesting. The placement also makes sense, which is shortly after the arc introducing Tsukuyo, and it also follows the trend of other characters being the ones who tease them, and not themselves.

The other half of the video is about how the characters' relationships with the rest of the cast are shown. It's highlighted that there needs to be an emotional reaction from a character to the idea of the other being interested in someone else, something Sorachi showed in many different ways but not with Gintoki and Tae. In her case, at most, she was shown getting annoyed at Sacchan, but only when she was provoked first. When it came to Tsukuyo, there was no reaction. Similarly, Gintoki has no reaction when Kyuubei or Kondo demonstrate their love interest.

The last point of the video, but not less important, is when characters have more romantic chemistry with other characters. In Tsukuyo's case, I think Sorachi was already a more experienced writer who knew his characters better and knew what his story needed. In particular, I think he wanted Gintoki to have someone close with whom he could relate but who wasn't directly connected to his past, among other things. And as I mentioned before, most of Tae's emotional energy in the series is with Kyuubei, followed by Kondo.

But why Sorachi didn't continue developing Gintoki and Tae's relationship romantically? The most obvious reason is simply because he didn't want to lol, but the explanation behind this, I think, is due to two main reasons. The first is that he wanted to keep the relationships within the Yorozuya platonic, and since Tae is an honorary member of the Yorozuya, it felt wrong to establish that there were romantic feelings involved. By comparison, it would be like confirming a relationship between Kagura and Shinpachi. And yes, Sorachi did some ship-teasing more than once between them too, but at the end of the day, he chose not to pursue it, and I think maintaining the familiarity is a cause.

The other reason is that as he wrote the story, he realized that Gintoki and Tae didn't fit well together. Tae can give Gintoki a sense of stability, but what can he offer her? Tae clearly values stability as well, hard work, having money. But Gintoki, due to his circumstances, doesn't meet those standards. If you think about it, the only two occasions when Tae unequivocally showed interest in Gintoki were when he lost his memory (Memory Loss arc) and when Hijikata was in his body (Soul Switch arc). Two occasions where Gintoki wasn't himself. But she liked that he seemed more serious and diligent, which implies that Tae's type is different.

It's also worth mentioning that Gintoki isn't shown making the same gestures towards Tae that Kondo or Kyuubei, the other two characters who are canonically in love with her (which is why I think they're a good benchmark) do. For example, while Sorachi chooses to show Gintoki teasing Tae about her breast size, in contrast, he shows Kondo buying her a kimono that will look good on her regardless, you know, like a supportive partner would. Even with all this, I understand that het shippers might've felt uncomfortable with the idea of pairing Tae with Kondo, and the other viable option was Gintoki. I think Sorachi was also aware of this, which is why he decided to develop Kondo and Tae's relationship in the final arcs.

While we're at it, I prefer kyuutae by faaar. As I've also expressed before, although I think Kondo is a great character, his persistence doesn't sit well with me. But whether it was because of heteronormativity or because Sorachi identified with him as a fellow gorilla, it's clear to me that he decided to emphasize Kondo and Tae's relationship much more. Even when gintsu and kyuutae were stagnating, he continued developing kontae as much as he could (probably because he'd already done the heavy lifting with the other two ships).

Sorachi didn't plan many things in his story, which I think is both a strength and a weakness. One of the things that reflect this is, for example, that Hasegawa was originally going to be part of the Yorozuya, an idea he later abandoned, but the remnant of Hasegawa's presence in the series remained. In the same way, I think his initial idea was to pair Gintoki with Tae, but eventually, he didn't. It seems that he also had the idea at the beginning to end the series with certain couples, but later decided to leave an open ending in that sense, although some of his inclinations were clearer than others.

I've seen people say there're subtle hints throughout Gintama that they fell in love, and while I don't want to say those interpretations are wrong, I think Sorachi is quite straightforward when it comes to these kinds of things. Even with unrequited loves, like in the case of Katsura and Ikumatsu, he showed that there was love. However, in the case of Gintoki and Tae, during the 15 years he wrote the manga, he didn't, probably because he felt it no longer fit the story after a certain point. That said, I think their relationship works just fine without the need for any labels.

Thank you again for stopping by, if you've another point that you would like to discuss feel free to message me or send another ask 🤗

[riddles-n-games]

Okay, I'm officially gonna start a thing called Writer Bytes on my page and this is gonna be an ongoing series of stuff related to writing. This is Writer Byte #1.

Writer Byte #1: We all have our least favorite or most hated tropes in literature. What are yours? I'll go first:

Miscommunication between main character and loved ones, mostly in context of romantic relation with love interest.

Everybody makes decisions regarding the main character, usually female protagonist, in order to "protect" them but they never let the MC have their say or they just ignore them.

Same old arguments going in never ending circles and just making the tension worse between characters for no reason whatsoever.

Instalove; self-explanatory, a little tension and believable build up to let the relationship unravel between the love interests is always fun to see. Plus, it actually leads to development and gives the relationship depth, relationships shouldn't be shallow or rushed. Invest in something else if you can't do romance or at least, let there be awkwardness and lingering with the new relationship if the characters are already going to get together quickly.

Mary Sue or Gary Stu, pretty sure everyone agrees with this one. Also very self-explanatory.

Too stubborn MC who keeps pushing everyone away or doesn't listen to anyone's advice.

Anyways, that's all I got for now. If I got any more, I will be sure to make another list. Let me know your thoughts in the comments or reblogs. Bye for now!

[whatsyourcolor]

You know watching PPP has completely flipped my interpretation of PP3 and PPFI.I think I am having a delayed heartbreak.Before PPP I definitely saw their interactions at the end of PPFI as romantic/at least something that resembles more than a working relationship.But now with context it looks like two people who understands they have a different understanding of justice and decided to be amicable about it.Funnily enough I don’t think I would even call them friends at that point let alone possible romantic partners.It feels more like they have resigned themselves to the fact their ideals of justice would never converge.That’s a huge deal breaker for friendship let alone romance.The best possible scenario for me would be if they released ppp chronologically.That way I could save myself the massive heartbreak of PP3+PPFI.Also as much as I have tried I just can’t ignore the writers and director.I have always perceived Kougami and Akane as very romantic.The nature of their ideologies.The absolute trust they have in each other .Twin flames who just couldn’t be together because of circumstances of the society they live under.Now that I know as both evidenced by canon and cast interviews that they are supposed to be percieved as platonic work buddies who don’t see eye to eye and they’ll never fall in love I have to go back and reevaluate the entire understanding of their relationship,maybe even pp because pp to me has always meant Shinkane/Kouaka.I feel like I don’t even know the charecters anymore.I swear the loss of romance aspects don’t even bother me quite as much as them setting up Kougami as Akane’s ideological opponent/foil.For me it has always been Akane and Kougami vs Sybil/everything.But now they have turned the tables and the way it’s being set up Akane vs Kougami is going to be at least the secondary if not the main conflict of the series conclusion.Their conflict has been as unresolved as ever.They’ll be in the ideological opposition again.It hurts more than I ever imagined to put things into perspective.Of course they should tell the story they want to tell.But going forward I don’t think Kouaka is possible romantically in canon anymore(in their defence they told us point blank).In conclusion I feel bad about it but I am not sure if I can enjoy PP anymore because how do you reconcile two people who you percieved as soulmates ending up as opposition who will never meet in the middle?I can’t and it’s breaking my heart.Maybe someday I’d be able to be less bitter and more objective about the source material.But right now I can’t.I need to grieve.

I also feel like Akane is alone in her fight for justice and Kogami is constantly being proved right (explosions, fights, etc. No more literary Kogami). He was reduced to violence for violence’s sake.

I was thinking about what he said, that he agreed with Tonami, but that he believed in her because she’s always trying to do the right thing. I wish there was more of that. I wish he really tried to believe in her.

One of the novels, I remember, describes his arrival to SeaUN. There’s a part where people are celebrating in the distance and he asks why are they celebrating? And someone tells Kogami: “it’s the birth of a baby or a wedding.” He says something along the lines of “those are good things. Those are the things she fights for. I’ll fight for that too.” (It was @cleverwolfpoetry’s translation.) And I love that. That’s the Kogami that I absolutely adore.

Him training the guerrillas because these are oppressed people with clouded hues relegated to an inferior caste and with no power to fight back. Him fighting for the right for everyone to decide if they want a corporation like Sibyl to control their lives or not, which is the same thing Akane wants and was able to achieve after talking to Sibyl as Chairman Han. Maybe him being disappointed when people vote in favor of Sibyl. That’s Kogami.

Maybe he knows Akane is right, but her dreams are unattainable. The truth is somewhere between them two, but I don’t know if this is something they want to explore anymore in PP. It seems like their visions have become flat and one-dimensional at this point.

In S1, Kogami is a cynic but Akane reminds him of things worth fighting for. And Akane is naive but Kogami allows her to see beyond and look at evil in the face. Both things are necessary for a detective: protecting people and understanding that people can be evil. Kogami and Akane’s natures remain the same, but being able to understand the point of the view of the other is what made their relationship so beautiful.

I always said that the true resistance to a system like that would be to love each other. To say “fuck you” to the system. At this point both characters are distanced, disconnected. It’s like their relationship hasn’t evolved. I don’t know if what Akane did would make it evolve.

I just know that she’s the loneliest of characters and it seems like she’s leading that fight alone while everyone else is busy shooting each other or playing Machiavellian political games. If the writers are smart or if Urobuchi comes back (he won’t), they would show a real uprising caused by what Akane did. Maybe she’ll even be sacrificed.

She’s the one who’s always asking “what was I born for?” That question still hasn’t been answered. Seeing Kogami fight for her sake, for a better future, would be peak Kogami again.

One can dream…

That heartbreak you’re feeling I had it when I finished the mess that was S3. I don’t know why they went in the direction they went but I was so disappointed that I also grieved for a while. I guess that protected me from heartbreak watching PPP.

[cbrownjc]

I think fans got that "hates Lestat" thing from the overall way ep5 was handled and then the resulting "yeah Lestat needs to go through a redemption arc after this" opinions from Sam, since in the first book afaik Lestat IS horrible, but he never did something like this to Louis. As for Armand/Louis, I've mainly seen people ship them more for the aesthetic of it, at least when you don't know the full context of Armand and his backstory and then romance with Louis, and you only base it on the current scenes. Since technically, Armand doesn't LOOK worse or just as bad as Lestat from what we've seen, the weirdest thing about him is putting on the role for Rashid for Louis. And for fans that like Louis as the character we have seen so far on the show (but not one that we've seen everything that's fully true about), I can understand people preferring Armand from everything so far in comparison to Lestat. But after the changes with Lestat I'm not sure if they'll technically make Armand any better on the show, especially with what we've seen of him in the present and how his relationship with Louis looks now.

Hey Anon,

I understand some people were hurt by EP5, but people gotta stop thinking it had anything to do with how any of the showrunners personally feel about the characters IMO. It was a choice made to set up a character arc, rightly or wrongly, and that's really it.

The staff writers have made it clear before this that Season 3 is the season Rolin especially wants to get to. Which we now know from his own mouth that will be The Vampire Lestat season if it happens. And they have still made Louis and Lestat (especially Lestat) more overtly romantic, and Lestat way more romantic towards Louis more than the first book ever did, before and after EP5. Even the very way in which Lestat turned Louis is way more sympathetic and romantic than in the book or the 1994 movie.

People can dislike the man for the choices made for EP5, and that's fine. (And he didn't even write that episode.) But that doesn't change some of the more sympathetic choices made wrt Lestat's character as opposed to the books either, IMO.

IDK. As I said after EP5 aired, maybe I feel the way I do because I know even in the later books, when Lestat is supposedly more sympathetic, he still does a lot of heinous shit too. And yet, I still enjoyed reading about his character even after that stuff.

I don't, and never have, looked toward Anne Rice's vampire chronicles characters for ethical, moral, or even just healthy choices. Lestat has character growth over the course of the series, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. But none of the characters in this story are ever morally better than others, Not even Louis (for all he acts like he is.)

All the characters in this are all f-ed up and toxic, just in various different ways and degrees. It just depends on how much f-ed up-ness and toxicity you are willing to take wrt a particular character when it comes down to it, IMO.

Which brings me to Armand. I mean, if people are shipping him and Louis mostly for the aesthetic, as you say, then okay, they can do them, I guess. I just hope they are okay with that aesthetic being the main reason why after the revelation of what Armand's true character is like (at this point in the story). Because if they haven't read the books, then aesthetic really is the only thing they can go by since they have zero idea what Armand's true character is or is really like.

Rashid was a performance. Not Armand's true character.

And I honestly think Armand, and what happens in Paris, will be worse than what happened in the book, if that's possible. (It’s something I’ve been saying even before the Armand reveal.) And not just because of what they had Lestat do that was unsympathetic on the show. But because I don't think the show is trying, in any way, to portray vampires as really being - in any way - moral or ethical creatures. Quite the opposite, really.

And especially when it comes to the vampires who are outside Louis, Lestat, and Claudia's little family bubble.

The show is leaning into the Horror part of this story just as much as it is the Gothic part. And Armand does some heinous shit in this story (and is a much better manipulator, given his spell and mind gifts), which I do not think the show will soften at all. They really have zero reasons to.

[natsubeatsrock]

Do I STILL really believe Nalu won’t happen?

Short answer: No.

But you know that's not how we do things here. 

It feels so good to be back! (sort of, at least) I know I've been away for some time. Part of it is being busy with things in real life. Part of it is mental health not doing too well. Some of my plans for things have shifted quite a bit, as you might be able to tell.

All that said, this hasn't changed.

I haven't talked about this in the proper context of the sequels. I've taken shots at the ship. But have I given this ship the treatment I'd probably be expected to?

Or, at least, have I explained my reasons for still doubting the ship will happen? Because I don't have to like that a ship is happening to believe it will happen.

Speaking of which, what better place to start with than talking about that other ship I rag on a lot: Gruvia. I've said this a few times, but I don't like Mashima's writing of Gruvia in the sequel. To be brief, the ship's focus is different from what I believe it should be. And having Juvia as an active series member has long since passed the point of straining reality.

At the same time, no one denies that Gray has decided to accept Juvia's feelings. He's come to terms with himself in this regard and will accept Juvia as a lover once the mission ends. (How are we still on the fourth dragon?) It's hard to see something like Gray wishing for an alternate universe where he's married with a kid and ask myself, "How serious is Mashima about this ship happening?" You know, as if it isn't only a matter of time.

The issue is that Nalu isn't on that level. That sounds like me being biased and denying the reality right, especially if I listen to certain people.

But let's compare these two ships and what's happened to them in the sequel.

When the gang visited Fairy Nali, their version of Juvia was the catalyst for Gray being as open with Juvia as he's poised to be. Fairy Nali has its own Nalu, but nothing meaningful came from it. Natsu got jealous because of Lucy, but that's not brought up again and doesn't affect anything.

They go to Edolas and see their alternate-world kids. I'll grant you that Natsu and Gray want to bring their "kids" to the Earthland. But what else happens? I mentioned what goes on with Greige already. Ashley talks with Lucy about the possibility of a future romance with Natsu, but she's not meaningfully moved by it.

Come to think of it, there was a similar conversation to that when they were on the Earth God Dragon. Lucy heard Touka had a romantic interest in Natsu. Her response wasn't one of jealousy. She figured it wouldn't go well once she heard about it. (It's almost as if she knows that Natsu isn't currently interested in a romantic relationship if he ever will be.)

Nothing showed that more than the one moment I've talked about the most from the sequel: Natsu and the women in his heart. The fact that Natsu's bunch of women is canonically juxtaposed with Gray's feelings for Juvia shows that Mashima's taking this ship as a joke.

To be a Nalu shipper, I must believe one of a few realities. It's possible that Natsu does have romantic feelings for all these women and can't decide between them. You know, despite Wendy being in that bunch. It's also possible Mashima, being in tune with fandom, is trying to appease fans of Natsu's most-popular ships, even outside of Nalu. It wasn't as if I expected anything involving Nali in the sequel. My theory, which I alluded to when it happened, is Mashima making a callback to a sketch he made a while back. That would explain why Mira and Cana were there but don't talk. They weren't in that old sketch.

I can't say for sure what this moment is supposed to mean. But I know that this isn't helping Nalu's case as a romantic ship. Not just because it's multiple women. Not just because Gray's only interested in Juvia. Natsu's focus in the matter is that Yakune put his friends against him. Not women he's interested in romantically used to distract him.

By the way, I'm sick of having to say this after eight years of having this blog. But I guess some things never change. Characters being put in awkward potentially sexual positions isn't proof your ship will happen. At best, it's a cheap gag that could reveal characters' feelings through their reactions. At worst, it's one of the most annoying tropes of the medium we love and want to take more seriously. Lucy wanting Natsu to touch her anywhere doesn't hold the kind of weight I'm annoyed to know so many fans want it to have. That doesn't matter how real or fake Lucy or whoever else is.

But what tells me Nalu isn't likely isn't any of that. It's not anything involving Gruvia or chapter 71 of the sequel. I don't think I'd say this a few years ago. But the thing that sells me against Nalu is Jerza. Of course, this isn't to say Jerza happening would jeopardize Nalu. But Jerza has been making strides toward becoming canon.

A few years ago, I concluded that Erza would never willingly leave Fairy Tail, even to be with Jellal. That means the only way Jerza could happen would be if Jellal accepted his actions as being forgiven and was willing to join Erza to some degree. This could be joining Fairy Tail or some sort of mutual partnership outside of it. Mind you, this was for how I was thinking of how to pair them in rewriting the series. (Also, thank "Kidnapping Erza".)

Now, what's happened in the sequel?

Awkward and annoying as it is, Jellal put his past behind him. At this point, it's more a matter of conviction, similar to Gray not using Iced Shell. Erza invited Jellal to join Fairy Tail. He's currently considering the offer and isn't too enthusiastic about it. But if the guild was willing to accept Gajeel destroying the guild and stapling Shadow Gear to a tree, Jellal's not too far from being accepted by the guild. Not because Tower of Heaven isn't objectively worse. Because if the one person in the guild hurt by his actions is willing to accept him, no one else has any reason to reject him. Especially considering she might become the next guild leader if Makarov dies (again).

And all the while, they genuinely get flustered at the idea of being in a relationship with each other. The notion of a Jerza romance is treated as all but a certainty by characters familiar with them multiple times in canon, including the the past few chapters we’ve got from the sequel. As far as I can tell, no one operates under the assumption this ship isn't happening. Nothing has convinced me this shouldn't be the case.

What can I say of Nalu in this regard?

It's one thing if I question whether or not Nalu will happen. I've never seriously liked it and have outright said it won't and shouldn't happen multiple times for multiple reasons. In years past, I probably would point to that and call it a day. But, if there’s any benefit to being away for the past few months, I’ve had time to justify something crazy.

For the past few years, Nalu fans have questioned if the ship will happen. People who like the ship genuinely wonder if Mashima will make the ship happen or if they're right to doubt its prospects. I've seen this all over the internet, not just here on Tumblr. It’s a question people bring up on Reddit. It’s mentioned in places like Youtube and Twitter.

And as much as people will reassure them that it's going to happen, this isn't true of the other ships in the Big 4. As a fandom, we're convinced Jerza will happen. We're convinced Gruvia will happen. No matter how people feel about them, I don't see anywhere near as many people questioning these ships happening as Nalu.  Gajevy's already happened, and we know how that's supposed to go.

And, to be honest, this has been amazing to notice. Going from everyone taking Nalu for granted to seeing the whispers of Nalu not being as possible genuinely makes me feel so vindicated. When I made my big post about Nalu years back, I was terrified someone would tell me I was wrong and tear down my post as idiotic. If I were to remake that post now, I'd have so much fewer worries making the post. Even making the sequel to that post after Mashima’s supposed positive comments about Nalu at NYCC was so much easier knowing they weren’t meant to be.

It's almost a shame that I've all but run out of things to say about the ship. At this point, there's not a whole lot else for me to say but "I told you so, idiots" to the people who doubted me and those who agreed with me. It's not unlikely that something new will happen that requires me to talk about Nalu between now and Mashima's final decision on the ship. Something always comes up, be it a moment or something in fandom. Some Nalu fans may reply to my posts, and I'll answer them. But nothing to change how we all view Nalu will likely happen for some time.

Is Nalu possible? Yes, Nalu can still happen as long as Mashima's still writing the series. I don't think that a canonized Nalu will look anywhere near as interesting as the fandom wants to believe it would be. However, it's not as if Nalu is entirely impossible. I said that when I made my first long post about Nalu. (I didn't in the sequel because I figured the series was over.) I said that when we learned Mashima didn't plan the ship originally. I still believe that now, despite everything that I've said.

While nothing is set in stone, I'll enjoy all the salt from the Nalu fandom.

[candylitaaa]

IZ HeadCanon: Irken romance & friendship

Long post! And possibly bad translated cuz i used *cof* Google *cof* this time

The irkens are incapable of feeling love romantically but it doesn't mean that it does not exist, even if it is different from that of humans. The irkens are people of pure warlike ambition, galactic conquest and selfishness (Issue 50), but they have their way of relating despite this. For example, Zim knows what weddings, the concept of love and friendship are (Issue 20, 50 and episodes of the series), but he knows that his species does not put it into practice like humans. To begin with, one of the differences is that they don't exactly use the words "love" and "friendship" to describe it, but instead use "alliance" and "companions" (In this HC of course) In Issue 20 Zim changes the word " marriage" for "i would annihilate last" and also said "Irkens only love galactic conquest, snacks and the suffering of it's enemies", so i see it like see somebody with hate and see somebody with less hate.

☺When an irken meets another they find themselves in a neutral relationship in which it can begin negatively (fights, insults, etc.) or positively (decent greetings, kindness [possibly], etc.). If both of them continue to meet and talk positively they could become "Allies". Allies for them, within a relationship, is almost the same as saying "friendship" for us. This could be because:

1-They begin to no longer see it necessary to fight often among themselves (even in companionship and alliances they fight, it's their nature) 2-They believe that the other is an idiot but has a "decent conscience", so they do not ignore each other. At least not so much 3-They begin to like the other's evil personality in general 4-Some or all of the above

☺If they remain allies for a while, they may or may not become "Companions." For them, have someone's company in social relationships is like saying "love", "boyfriends" and other things related to romanticism. The fact of calling it "companion" is because having a very competitive and destructive nature no matter what makes us understand, in some way, that precisely with that irken, hatred does not appear too much. This could be because:

1-The natural hatred they had before is slightly more null, making them patient with each other (The hatred is partly maintained, as explained before) 2-They feel or strongly believe that with that irken they become unstoppable in general 3-The evil or cunning that the other has becomes interesting instead of annoying or just pleasant 4-Between invaders: they feel or strongly believe that when together they are an unstoppable duo that can conquer several planets without problems (Yes or yes there must be one of the above mentioned) 5-Some or all of the above

If their companionship lasts too long and they are irkens who consider themselves strong, they have the possibility of cloning and combining their DNA to create a "Smeet" ("Smeet" is a baby irken). Since they do not have reproductive systems, the only way to create life is through cloning.

☺Things to highlight:

1-They use the words "Companions" and "Alliances" to describe their relationships as well as to say "I know you are my enemy but to defeat him we need a temporary alliance" or similar, making the interpretation depends on the context.

2-Just because they are incapable of feeling romantic love/sexual attraction does not mean that they do not give each other kisses, hugs, praise, go on dates and so on. It is not seen often because they do not usually see the point or need, but some Irkens do not mind trying to do one or more of the mentioned in their own way (Praise like "I know I am the best but I think you are almost comparable to me" [ comparative and challenging but with a friendly tone], hugs that look uncomfortable or nice but short, quick kisses on the cheeks [depending on the irken it can be on the hand, mouth, etc.] and dates that involve the destruction/anger of something or someone that they share in common [getting angry with someone they hate in common, destroying objects for fun and in the case of a relationship between invaders, making fun of those who rule thanks to them]). The Pak only blocks romantic, sexual attraction and in some cases friendship, but part of their culture since before the creation of that technology carried out these activities (in a more loving way for obvious reasons). That's one of the reasons why they know them. Then there are strange cases where when visiting a world where they put this into practice, they begin to like it and do it with their partner.

3- Some Irkens, when they have an alliance that they like enough to give way to companionship but do not want to be one, call themselves "Strong Allies", known as "Strong Alliance". It's the same as saying "best friends" to us. They don't want to fight often, thinks the other have a cool and interesting evil personality, likes to do anything with them and so on, but prefer to stay in an Alliance (being best friends).

[lotus-pear]

Hi! (Sorry this is long. I wasn’t sure how to shorten it)

I saw your most recent post involving your social experiment with your friend and I figured I can (maybe) contribute data to your social experiment!

Context: I started watching BSD somewhere around 2019 (I think I watched season 3 as it aired or it had just finished and it seemed like the anime ended). I accidentally found it, the description seemed interesting and the names looked familiar (i.e., I recognised some of them as authors right away)

So, I looked up the characters and while trying to minimise spoilers (and somehow mostly succeeded in that?) and was exposed and was exposed almost exclusively to knkdz (I didn’t realise Chuuya existed until I got to episode 9 and wasn’t aware of any other ships). It’s also worth noting that I didn’t really interact with fandoms that much back then (the most— for all the things I was a fan of/consumed— was accidentally discovering and seeing knkdz fan content. It seemed like an interesting ship)

Anyway, then I watched the show (and started the manga). The result? For me personally, I found knkdz to be the least interesting ship (romantic or queerplatonic)— don’t get me wrong/that being said, I *love* their canon relationship and whatnot

(We’ll see if that changes after I read the light novels since stuff like new manga scenes/arcs, Beast and Dazai, Chuuya, Age 15 have affected my opinions on characters, relationships and etc)

Most of the relationships I like to see when consuming content is actually platonic, with the few ships I do like being mostly queerplatonic (off the top of my head, I think the only actual romantic ship I have is Fitzgerald and his wife?), and all relationships being treated as roughly equally important

(And, if asked to list my favourite ships by order, it would have more to do with my favourite characters than actual ships lol)

Note: I’m on the romance-repulsed area/spectrum (for lack of a better word that I can think of at the moment) of AroAce so, like, that probably affects things lol

(That being said, it’s nice to see that BSD treats all relationships fairly equally and contributed me to liking the show so much!)

a response that i’ll make sure to factor in! i will say however that i have to disagree w you bc even as just friends or even going lower as just work acquaintances kunikida and dazai are written to have a lot deeper relationship than they actually let on. none of this is elaborated on in the anime or manga bc the series’s main focus is atsushi for the beginning but if you read dazai’s entrance exam you get kunikidas entire inner monologue abt dazai and it’s very interesting how quickly they latch onto each other. dazai’s reasons are more tragic than he lets on i believe, but until we get that directly from him we can only assume he gets so close to the ada and kunikida especially bc kuni reminds him of odasaku. that’s a whole tangent i can go on separately but suffice to say it’s the reason why he fell hard and followed him like a motherless duckling everywhere in the beginning, bc he saw oda’s unwavering resolve and firm ideals in that man. despite being in a conscienceless world that weighs survival against humanity, both oda and kunikida fight to ensure their personal beliefs are still held up. dazai finds that admirable in both men