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upagainstthesunset · 10 months

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Metron's Love Life: Does It Exist?

Okay to be fair, it's never stated in canon that Metron can't fall in love. Ive been going around saying it is canon, but it's probably more of my own extrapolation of his personality than anything. It's my interpretation of what is or isnt out of character for him. With that in mind, let's look at three specific scenarios and I'll let you be the judge on whether or not this guy has a heart. These are the only brushes with romance that Metron's had that I'm aware of (and believe me, im very aware).

Scenario 1: New Gods #13 by Gerry Conway 1977

Metron and others are each tasked with protecting a human on Earth, so he shows up in New Orleans to protect a woman named Lorraine Hampton. The only indication that he's partial to her at all is when he watches her perform on stage and admires her singing.

[ID: Two comic panels. In the first, Lorraine turns Metron's face towards herself flirtatiously and says, "--and like me." To which Metron replies, "I'm sure I shall enjoy your performance Lorraine Hampton." She says, "See that you do, good buddy... And don't go home without me."

In the second image he watches Lorraine sing and says to himself thoughtfully, "Odd. I've traveled half a dozen galaxies... Spanned a full third of the known universe... But never have I felt a sense of belonging, as I feel here... Tonight." /END]

My personal feeling is that this out of character, but he really only has had 11 appearances up to this point. It's hardly much to go by. And in fairness, this is treated as a kind of unexpected anomaly that he finds himself feeling this way. But I suppose what I always end up falling back to is Kirby's characterization in New Gods. In my heart of hearts I just don't see this fitting. And also it really skirts around flirtation without him indicating if the odd feeling he has is romantic or just fascination.

Scenario 2: Super Powers #5 by Jack Kirby 1984

So if Kirby's word is gospel, what do we have here. In this one Metron has managed to save everyone after dealing with Darkseid and the Worlogog. To show her appreciation, Wonder Woman gives him a chaste kiss on the cheek, to which Metron appears visibly startled.

[ID: A comic panel of Wonder Woman kissing Metron on the cheek. Metron looks shocked and says, "What?! A kiss for Metron? I-- I never thought it likely--" Wonder Woman replies, "You deserve it-- for saving our world, and showing us that even a god can be human." Off screen someone says, "The brain booster-- it just disappeared!" /END]

I've shared this panel before because to me this is buck wild. Metron getting a kiss! From Wonder Woman!! He looks as surprised as I did when I first read this. I'd call this fan service but idk besides me what fan this could possibly cater to. Regardless, this is a rare time where we get any insight into Metron's thinking about romance at all. He doesnt say if receiving a kiss is something he had desired or hoped for, or even if he liked it. Just that he thought it wasn't in the cards for him. Knowing him, if he had wanted this kind of interaction with someone, he would have pursued it to completion. We've seen other instances where he is almost relentless about getting what he wants, so to me it means he didn't care enough to try to make it happen. But hmm idk, that really doesn't explain why he's so flustered.

Scenario 3: New Gods #22 by Mark Evanier 1991

Metron thinks back on the time when he betrayed all of New Genesis by giving Darkseid the means to be anywhere at any time in exhange for the ability to complete work on the Mobius Chair. Back then there was a woman who tried very hard to keep his attention, but she never won him over in the way she would've liked. He respected her in a way, and even said he loved her, but he also thought of her abstractly and through the lens of study.

[ID: A comic panel of Metron and Desdemona arguing. Desperately, Desdemona yells, "There was a time, Metron, when you said you loved me... When that and that alone gave you purpose!" Standing away from her, but turning back to regard her, Metron says, "Desdemona, I do love you. In my own way, I always shall. But I was gifted with an insatiable brain and a thirst for knowledge, so that I might ever expand the latter." /END]

So now we finally have an example of Metron addressing his ability to love directly. And by his own words, he can love. He does love. But it clearly isnt in the way that others do, and he knows it. But despite what he says, he still betrays her and others. He doesnt try to protect her, or even really consider her in general except when he's taking mental notes on her behavior. Always the academic amirite?

The other thing with this exchange is that apparently at one time he said she was enough to satisfy his mind. No offense but I find that pretty hard to believe. It's a real 'he would not fucking say that' situation. I'll buy that Metron thinks he loves someone in his own way, but i draw the line at him allegedly saying love gave him purpose. I mean come on.

[ID: Two comic panels of Metron and Desdemona talking. He appears stern, while she looks defeated with tears in her eyes. In the first he says, "There is a price to be paid with every gain of knowledge. As my mate, you shall just have to accept that." She says, "You have so much to learn, Metron. Even the simplest truths escape you."

In the second panel she walks away from him saying, "I have not been your 'mate' for a long time." /END]

See now this sounds a lot more like Metron. He wants her to accept that Darkseid's troops attacked New Genesis children in exchange for securing the element that powers the Mobius Chair. And you know what? He totally would fucking say that! That is SO in character! Are these the words of a man who loves someone?? No! And this whole "as my mate" business.. I do think he'd say that. I don't like it, but is it within reason for his personality? Absolutely.

So like, to me it kinda seems like he didnt really love her even if he thought he did. He mightve loved studying her? But thats about it. And when she walked away crying she said she never wanted to see him again and he noted her behavior for further study (not pictured).

Now there is something to be said about this being just one writer's characterization of him, but Evanier worked as one of Kirby's assistants during the creation of the Fourth World books. He has gone on record as saying he felt he didn't do as good of a job with the title himself, but I still think tonally maybe he gets a little extra credit for whatever insight working with Jack Kirby gave him.

That said, would Metron ever take on a "mate"? Idk maybe for science to see what it's like or how it goes. And would he end up completely missing how much he hurts her? Probably. So yeah, to me this wasn't love. Even though he said it was.

In Conclusion

Ive shown what I can related to Metron's few brushes with romance. Obviously I couldnt include all of scenario 3, so if you want to learn more youll have to read the entire issue. But as you can see, the rare times where he supposedly saw some action, it's either unclear how into it he is, or unclear if what he felt was actually romantic attraction in the first place. And in all cases, it really begs the question of if certain aspects are even in character to begin with. So what do you think? Does Metron have the ability to love?

#metron #new gods #fourth world #metronmeta #metron if i fits i sits #katetakes

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liminalpsych-in-teyvat · 10 months

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Genshin ship preferences

My preferred ships in Genshin, ones I read/write, and ships I avoid. (Not because I disapprove, ship what you want! But I just don't enjoy reading fanfic of those ships.)

(Disclaimer: Charactername/Charactername is dynamic-neutral in this list. Assume I'm okay with either or with characters being vers unless otherwise specified. I'll specify top/dom and bottom/submissive dynamics I prefer in the description, if applicable. I know "top" and "bottom" often refers to just the active/penetrating partner and the passive/receptive partner. But when I say it, I'm using it in a kink sense. Top/dominant and bottom/submissive. I prefer top/bottom to dominant/submissive because it's more flexible, scene-specific, and doesn't imply out-of-the-bedroom lifestyle elements that may not apply for the character relationship.)

Favorite Ships & Characters

Characters I want to read more stories about, regardless of whether they're with anyone and regardless of relationship dynamics: Ayato, Alhaitham, Baizhu, Kazuha, Nahida, Neuvillette, Wanderer, Xiao, Zhongli, Kaeya, Dehya, Jeht, Dunyarzad, Tadhla

Alhaitham/Kaveh: Usually top!Alhaitham and bottom!Kaveh, but I've seen some Kaveh-as-bratty-top depictions that I liked. I can see them both being switches. I just love their dynamic, and the number of fanfic writers who've extrapolated my lived internal experience from Alhaitham's character has been a little ridiculous, so it's often pretty validating and relatable for me to read.

Ayato/Thoma: Usually with top!Ayato and bottom!Thoma, but I'm here for service top Thoma and needs-to-let-go-of-control-sometimes Ayato because ye gods, man, you're gonna die of stress at an early age if you don't do something about it. I've also seen plenty of believable topping-from-the-bottom Ayato and pillow-princess-bottom Ayato which I can totally believe as well. Dom Thoma is confusing to me and I haven't seen it done believably yet, though I'll read a fic out of curiosity to see if they'll convince me.

...Also I really want Alhaitham/Ayato/Thoma/Kaveh even though I know it's kind of a crackship, Alhaitham and Kaveh have never met Ayato and Thoma, but their dynamics would work in such interesting ways together! Throw any combination of those four in a story and I'll read it immediately.

Zhongli/yaksha: Zhongli as archon/liege and yaksha as vassal/servant (I haven't read a bottom/sub Zhongli depiction that I've ever liked or resonated with). This requires a little explanation. My absolute favorite Zhongli/yaksha fic is with Jiangxue as the missing yaksha (written before the Perilous Trail Archon Quest release in 2.7). Anything that calls back to Morax's ruthless war god aspect from the Archon War is an automatic win for me. I do like plenty of Zhongli/Xiao stories, but I always have to imagine Xiao as… not looking so young as his character model (even though he's absolutely ancient) because every time I see him in game and remember how young he looks, I have a harder time reading explicit fanfic with him in it. Which is annoying, because the dynamic is so delightful.

Zhongli/Childe: I was uncertain about this initially, but there's been so much good fanfic that it's convinced me. (I'll also always read Childe/Zhongli/Xiao.)

Jeht/Lumine: C'mon, where is all the fanfic for this? It's the first time we've had such drastic differences in dialogue between Lumine and Aether, and makes it so obvious that Jeht sees Aether as a friend and Lumine as a love interest. Where is the fanfic?

Dehya/Dunyarzard: I love them.

Ningguang/Beidou: I love them so much.

Baizhu/Il Dottore: I was trying to find Baizhu shipped with anyone, and this is the one that resonated the most when I actually read fanfic of it. Not as a romantic ship, just as a kinky ship dynamic.

Ships I like but don't usually go looking for, but I'll read them if they come up:

Il Dottore/Pantalone: This is all pantalonely's fault for writing some of the best fic in the entire fandom.

Baizhu/Herbalist Gui: If we're talking believable ships, I'm here for this one. It just tends to be very… soft, and I don't usually go looking for soft in my fanfic reading. I also can't really imagine it as anything other than soft. So I love the ship, but I don't read much fanfic of it.

Itto/Thoma/Ayato: Any combination of the three. A well done Itto is a fun element of playful disruptive chaos in the Ayato/Thoma dynamic.

Xiao/Aether: The Perilous Trail archon quest and Lantern Rite 2023 finally sold me on this one. I don't normally ship Traveler since the game is written such that the Traveler is flirted with by practically everyone, so it doesn't seem to mean much, but in Xiao's case it seems to be unusually emphasized. I'm here for it. I mostly read non-erotica for these two, lots of great hurt/comfort.

Cyno/Tighnari: They're just a lot of fun.

Cyno/Tighnari/Kaveh/Alhaitham: I just really like polyamory fics, and this one generates a lot of writing in the fandom.

Dainsleif/Halfdan: As lovers or as friends, I'll take either one.

Dainsleif/Abyssal Lumine: One of the few m/f ships I'll read.

Ayaka/Yoimiya: Because they're adorable.

Venti/Xiao: Not what I usually go for but there's some good hurt/comfort stuff out there for these two.

Nahida & Wanderer (platonic only): I love their dynamic in the game so much, the mentor/reluctant student sort of thing, the healer/patient, etc. More of this please.

Common ships I avoid:

Most of the m/f ships unless they're queered in some significant way or polyamorous.

Kaeya/Diluc (incest, even adoptive incest, is a major squick for me)

#genshin ships #some of my favorite ships #about me

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entryno17 · 3 years

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SPAMTON & GASTER, PUPPETS & PUPPETEERS, AND THE LINES BETWEEN FANTASY & REALITY

SO CHAPTER 2 WAS PRETTY AMAZING HUH. as a certified gaster enjoyer i feel i have the duty to over-analyze some nonsense, as is tradition. so here we are! on the surface, it may seem like this chapter didn't offer much in the realm of lore related to gaster, but there's actually QUITE a bit of information we can extrapolate from all that we've seen... and a lot of it comes from our favorite [[Number 1 Rated Salesman1997]]!

of course, please note that this post is obviously only my own interpretation, so your ideas may largely differ from mine. regardless, i hope you'll find the information presented in this post interesting, and i hope you'll enjoy reading my scattered little thoughts!

PART 1: SPAMTON G. SPAMTON

we've known for a while now that jevil and gaster came into contact at some point—a meeting which ultimately ended with jevil losing his mind and being locked away. here's a refresher on jevil's backstory from seam, if you need it. it seems that spamton met with a similar strange someone, and met with a similar fate. you can get extra dialogue from some npcs in the trash zone after defeating spamton neo, as seen here:

both spamton and jevil are ridiculously overpowered secret bosses who suffered a decline after they came into contact with a mysterious stranger—or in spamton's case, after he lost contact. spamton is even implied to have known jevil directly, tying them together even further. if jevil met with gaster, it's safe to assume that spamton did as well... but the connections don't end there!

gaster has a strange association with phones. when in the room with the gaster followers, frisk's phone won't turn on when used. there's also the wrong number song fun event, the memoryheads (amalgamations that communicate via frisk's phone and may be connected to gaster), and, of course, there's kris's phone in deltarune. while in the dark world, the phone cannot be used. if you try to use it, you'll be met with a certain piece of audio: smile.ogg. this audio is also what plays in the background of entry number seventeen in undertale. in fact, in chapter 2, the text that appears when you attempt to use the phone has curiously been altered. it used to just say "it doesn't seem to be working". in this chapter, however, it was changed to say...

... which is exactly how the trash zone npcs describe the noise coming from spamton's receiver.

finally: the gaster followers, the door to mystery man's room, goner characters, and the vessel—all directly associated with gaster—are all grayscale versions of other characters/sprites, and whaddya know, after spamton transfers himself into the emptydisk the screen goes gray.

the connection between spamton and gaster is pretty clear to me. somehow, gaster found spamton at his lowest and decided to help him become a [big shot]. but what exactly is gaster trying to achieve here? and why did he seek out spamton in particular?

i think gaster is looking for vessels.

PART 2: I'M NOT A FAN OF PUPPETEERS, BUT

jevil is a joker card: when played, a joker can be used to represent any other card. spamton is a puppet, something literally designed to be controlled—to carry out the will of its puppeteer. the very first thing we saw in deltarune was the gonermaker sequence, where gaster instructs the player to create a vessel. it seems to me that gaster requires 'vessels' like jevil and spamton for a currently unknown reason.

the concept of people being 'vessels' is ever-present throughout deltarune, as is the the idea of 'control', or lack thereof. the red soul inhabiting kris's body controls them, and we experience first-hand the impact this has on both kris and the people around them. the snowgrave route is all about the loss of self agency. noelle acts as a vector to carry out the player's actions, and is unable to deny their control as she's compelled to carry out their malicious whims. the player commands her just as they command kris—however, through noelle, they are able to cause actual harm to the world around them. your own choices may not matter in deltarune, but the choices you make for the people in its world do matter. there's a LOT more to be said on this topic, but since i'm trying to keep this post at least vaguely on topic, let's just go over how this theme applies to spamton.

spamton's story is about trying to regain control, and trying to attain freedom. after being abandoned by his 'puppeteer', he was forced to try and get by on his own.

* IF YOU'VE [[Lost Control Of Your Life]] * THEN YOU JUST GOTTA GRAB IT BY THE [[Silly Strings]]

spamton directly parallels kris's own lack of control. after fighting him, kris appears to be visibly shaken based on susie and ralsei's reactions. everything spamton talks about—being a puppet, fighting for self-agency—strongly resonates with kris.

DO YOU WANNA BE A [Heart] ON A [Chain] YOUR WHOLE LIFE!?

spamton's dialogue in the snowgrave route drives this connection even further, where he explicitly connects his own story to kris's. spamton has a tendency to project his own thoughts onto others. he does it a lot to kris specifically (and the irony is not lost on me here).

GO AHEAD, [Kid]... CALL ALL YOU WANT! NO ONE WILL EVER PICK UP THE [Voice] RUNS OUT EVENTUALLY YOUR [Voice] THEIR [Voice] UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU ARE ALL ALONE MUTTERING YOUR [Lost Friends] NAMES AT THE BOTTOM OF A [Dumpster]! NO ONE'S GONNA HELP YOU!!!

speaking of spamton's tendency to project, i feel like i should point out these lines:

WELL, YOU'RE [$!$!] RIGHT! BUT DON'T BLAME ME WHEN YOU'RE [Crying] IN A [Broken Home] WISHING YOU LET YOUR OLD PAL SPAMTON [Kill You]

still assuming he's using kris as a vector to vent his own thoughts... these lines are kind of harrowing. whatever happened to spamton made him wish he was dead. it's worth wondering... what exactly happened to spamton? and is it the same thing that happened to kris?

whenever he offers kris a deal, spamton's wording is very intense, and very deliberate. he won't force them—he can't force them, because he knows he's not in control. it's like he knows that not even kris is in control of themself.

another oddity: spamton is seemingly puppeteered by multiple mysterious forces. when talking to him in his shop, spamton occasionally slips out of character, and in one instance, says this:

you may recognize that first piece of dialogue as being nearly a direct quote from the "UNUSED" portion of deltarune's files. (i don't have confirmation on hand, but i've heard that the japanese translation of this dialogue matches up as well.)

spamton's speech itself may be being actively censored, too. if you talk to him about the knight, spamton will attempt to tell kris something about them, before...

... that happens. spamton's dialogue in general is littered with cuts between random nonsense and it's anyone's guess as to why, but it's possible that some of these 'cuts' are deliberate.

spamton mentions that his entire reason for wanting to become a [big shot] was attaining freedom. however, his concept of freedom appears to have changed somewhere along the way.

I WAS ONLY EVER IN IT FOR THE [Freedom]. TO MAKE YOUR OWN [Deals] TO CALL YOUR OWN [Shots]

at first, he seemed to be satisfied with his life of luxury. he was a [big shot], with big cars, big commercials... and freedom. though his actions were guided by the hands above him, spamton felt free. he relied on his puppeteer for everything, but in a way, he may have found freedom in accepting that control. somewhere along the way, spamton's idea of freedom shifted, however. whether or not if it was when things started to go downhill is unclear. either way, at some point spamton grew to recognize that he could become even bigger—and when he lost everything, the idea of attaining freedom was his only hope. he just needed to take control of himself—and he found just the thing he needed in the castle basement.

mettaton is heavily implied to be the source of the body spamton eventually inhabits. when talking to swatch after defeating spamton neo, they mention that the body he took was once the dream of a lightner. (seam says the same thing when you bring spamton's shadow crystal to them, too!)

* That robot was the embodiment of a Lightner's dream. A dream I helped create... once. * Splashing color from the motion of their hand. The Lightner filled it with their own hope, giving it an incredible power... but, in the end, nothing ever came of it. * And it was left in the basement with the rest of the corrupted data. ... But that crooked salesman! Somehow, he learned about the robot, and thought he could use its power to fulfill his own twisted dreams.

the hopes and dreams of lightners have power, enough to manifest as powerful artifacts within dark worlds.

* Spamton? This used to be his room... Though it's not like he used it, after a while. * Eventually, he just spent all his time in the basement... praying. * When things went downhill, he became obsessed with that artifact. Maybe he thought it would give him another big break?

spamton seemed to think that by taking a vessel formed by a lighter, he would be able to achieve regain control of his life. but was he really just looking for another 'big break'...?

(p.s. this isn't relevant to the point i'm trying to make at all but since swatch is the representation of an art program, it's possible that the body spamton took is literally an ms paint doodle by mettaton. i just need everyone to know that.)

PART 3: [[H E A V E N]]

spamton is the only darkner who recognizes kris's soul as a source of power, separate from that of the power of other lightners. in fact, he's the only character that seems to desire our protagonist's soul in particular. it's almost nostalgic, because it's something we haven't seen since undertale. notably, whenever spamton talks to kris, he tries to talk to them alone. there's something about kris that spamton recognizes as being key to his 'freedom', and he wants it for himself.

it's worth pointing out that kris, a human, has been the only character seen to both create and seal fountains. ralsei's prophecy states that only the heroes of light can seal fountains, though the wording is ambiguous as to how these fountains are sealed. taken literally, this statement doesn't seem to add up (not unlike many other things ralsei says), since, in the snowgrave route, kris is seen to seal the fountain entirely by themself. a human soul must possess certain properties that other lightner souls do not. the exact nature of the power lightners hold is currently unknown; even the queen, who seeks to open another fountain, doesn't seem to know exactly how fountains are created. she assumes that lightners are able to open fountains through a power exclusive to only them: sheer will—in other words, determination.

* The Roaring Knight... Today, It Deigned To Create This World * Reaching Its Long Hand To The Sky * It Coursed Its Will Into Its Blade * And Made * Thrusting The Fountain From The Earth * Unfortunately The World They Created Is Trapped Within The Confines Of The Library * If Only We Had A Way To Make More Darkness * We Might Be Able To Cover The Whole World * That Is When I Realized * This Power... This Power Of The Will * This Power Of Determination... * Is This Not Something That All Lightners Possess...? * If One Was Simply Determined Enough * Could Not Anyone Make A Dark Fountain?

but... monsters don't have determination in either undertale or deltarune, as far as we know. so how is spamton of all people aware of determination and human souls? it could have something to do with his connection to gaster. we know that gaster was the one who created the blueprints for the DT extraction machine, and his ability to persist while being shattered across time and space may have something to do with the power of determination. not only that, but determination seems to have a secondary ability—an ability that's a bit hard to describe. it's something like an power to exist out of the bounds of reality; to persist removed from time and space.

every character that has been seen to possess determination (with the possible exception of undyne?) has, in some way, gone 'out of bounds'. flowey is aware of saving and loading and many other game mechanics, and his knowledge of different timelines is shown to persist through resets. frisk is directly controlled by the player, who certainly doesn't exist in the bounds of the game. even the amalgamates seem to break the world around them with their glitchy effects. gaster is effectively an 'out of bounds' character too. information about him is almost exclusive to datamining and hacking, and in deltarune, gaster is intrinsically tied to the game's code. here's a post i made regarding that, go check it out!

so does spamton have this same power? well, no... but he seems to know of it, and tries to attain it through a few different means. spamton's 'out of bounds' areas are different than that of others, however. as a darkner, the light world is 'out of bounds' for spamton. it should be impossible for him to exist there. searching for a way to go beyond the dark world, he turns to the body created by mettaton first, but after kris helps him enter the body, he finds out inhabiting a vessel created by a lightner isn't enough.

* HA HA HA ... THIS POWER IS FREEDOM. * I WON'T HAVE TO BE JUST A PUPPET ANY MORE!!!! * OR... so... I... thought. * WHAT ARE THESE STRINGS!? * WHY AM I NOT [BIG] ENOUGH!? * It's still DARK... SO DARK!

he needs more than just a body. spamton needs a soul. without one, he's unable to see past the 'dark'. he is unable to enter the light world—to enter reality. interestingly, spamton seems to refer to the light world as 'heaven', which appears to be in direct reference to "the angel's heaven" referred to in ralsei's prophecy... but i won't even get into that, seriously, this post is long enough.

* KRIS. * THAT'S RIGHT. * YOU. I NEED YOU. TO BE BIG. WITH ME. * VERY VERY BIG * SO BIG WE'LL STAND UP TALL AND SEE PAST THE DARK * STAND UP WITH OUR HEADS IN THE CLOUDS AND LOOK INTO * H E A V E N

spamton realized that the world around him isn't real—spamton realized that he isn't real. like jevil, spamton recognizes that this is all just a 'game'. he's trapped in the dark, and he wants to be free.

KRIS!!! MY DAYS AS A [Long-Nosed Doll] ARE OVER!!! CUT THAT [Wire] AND MAKE ME A [Real Boy]!! ARE YOU WATCHING, [Heaven]!? IT'S TIME FOR SPAMTON'S [Comeback Special]! AND THIS TIME... I LIVE FOR MYSELF!!! NO... MYSELF AND MY [Friend(s)]!!!

spamton even references pinocchio multiple times, regarding his desire to become a 'real boy'. you can try to help him by having kris's party snap his wires, but as soon as the last wire snaps...

he breaks.

spamton can't live for himself, because he wasn't designed to. he's a puppet who tried to grab its own strings, to gain control, and to become something more than he was; spamton tried to see past the dark and into reality, and he broke.

after defeating him, his tone becomes much more somber. no one can choose who they are in his world, and spamton recognizes this; he resigns himself as nothing but a simple puppet. he still has hope for the heroes of light, however, because spamton offers his power to kris's party. spamton is once again allowing himself to be controlled, but this time, he wants to be used for good—he wants the heroes of light to truly break their own strings, and to succeed where he failed. though kris is particularly shaken up by this encounter, susie and ralsei are also a bit uneasy.

* Hey so... are we seriously... * NOT gonna talk about any of that? * That was god damn weird. * Puppets... strings... hands... * What the hell does any of that mean? * And the way he just... broke.

(i think susie specifically singling out 'hands' here is interesting)

* I... don't think it meant anything, Susie. * It seems like it was just a corrupted program. * He turned into our ally, so let's just accept it.

spamton is perceived to be fundamentally broken; he's "just a corrupted program". though ralsei denies any significance to the battle, he's clearly unsure—something much deeper is happening here, and it's something ralsei doesn't want to dwell on.

PART 4: AND THE PLACES THAT YOU KNOW...

let's shift gears for a moment. despite the distinct separation between light and dark, it's clear that the dark worlds are more than just fantasy. the line between fantasy and reality is a concept that deltarune plays with a lot. how real are the characters within the dark worlds? how real are the things that happen within them? the dark worlds are real to their inhabitants, and they're real to the lightners who explore them. this is exemplified in the snowgrave route, where berdly like, literally dies. while these worlds may just be creations of the knight, they aren't meaningless. they have power, and so do the darkners within them.

but who is 'the knight', anyway? and why are they creating these worlds at all? it's obviously way too soon to make any concrete guesses as to their identity, so i'll posit my own theory: the knight is not just one individual, and "the knight" is not an immutable identity. "the knight" is a concept, simply used to describe anyone who creates dark worlds. we know that kris is able to form their own fountain, but it's unlikely that they're the only one with this ability. while i won't outright reject any theory that states kris alone is the knight, it seems improbable to me. the queen states that her dark world was formed "today", meaning kris would've needed to sneak into the computer lab at some point to create it. this isn't technically impossible... but i think there's more to it than that.

i'm not entirely convinced that gaster is the knight, either—though i certainly don't deny it. it's mostly because i believe gaster is creating much more than dark worlds. remember when deltarune was first released? it was a 'SURVEY_PROGRAM', and it was brought to us by a certain mysterious someone, who also guided us in the creation of a vessel. based on the introduction to the game, it's assumed that deltarune's world was created in some sort of partnership between gaster and chara, as both are present during the gonermaker sequence (and a few other areas).

deltarune is not an alternate timeline, nor is it completely removed from the universe of undertale—it's an alternate world based on undertale's world, created by characters who existed in it. just like the dark worlds, the light world itself was a work of creation, as is the very program we're using to interact with it. these are all old theories, however; i thought i'd bring it up as a quick refresher for anyone who doesn't remember. let's move on to some new stuff!

there's some new dialogue which indirectly implies gaster's involvement in the creation of the light world, and it comes from an unexpected source: alvin boom, the son of gerson boom. first and most notably, when talking about the death of his father, alvin directly parallels the dialogue of the gaster followers.

in deltarune, alphys is once again hired as a successor after the death of a well-respected figure in her field. it seems sort of strange for this to be paralleled here... until you read the rest of what alvin has to say about gerson.

* Originally a smith by trade, he began writing history... * And made a turn into telling stories, as a means to entertain his children. * That such a story, created for a such a simple purpose, could blossom into such a large, wonderful, world-changing thing... * That is the majesty of words, Kris.

gerson was a famous author, and from his hand, wondrous worlds of fantasy were born. sounds familiar! i definitely don't think this is a coincidence—i think this is further proof of gaster's involvement in creating deltarune's world.

but all of this comes back to our biggest question: what is gaster trying to achieve? if he did indeed create the light world and the survey program, why? and why is he interacting with darkners in the way he is? gaster certainly seems villainous in the context of his vessels' stories... but i DEFINITELY don't think it's that simple. with what we have, i can't think of any reason besides pointless villainy for gaster to leave spamton and jevil as they are, and since that's the most boring explanation available, i believe there's far more to this story that we're not yet aware of. there is still a lot of information we're missing. five whole chapters of it, in fact. it's WAY too soon to decide what gaster's motivations are here. i have my own ideas, but they're all pure conjecture at this stage. still, i want to bring up one of these ideas, because at the very least, i think it's an interesting concept...

what if what happened to gaster was the same thing that happened to the card kingdom?

gaster was forgotten. it’s never stated directly, but it’s heavily implied. between goner kid’s weird spiel about non-existence and the fact that gaster barely seems to exist at all to anyone but his followers, it’s safe to assume that gaster being shattered across time and space effectively erased him from reality, thus causing him to be 'forgotten’. gaster is a representation of unused content in video games. he represents abandoned ideas, cut concepts; creations that never saw the light of day. similarly, the denizens of the card kingdom were left abandoned—in reality, they were toys left in an unused classroom... they were forgotten about.

it's important to remember what the relationship between lightners and darkners entails. seam explains it here:

* Long ago, the Darkners lived in harmony with the Lightners. * They were like Gods to us. * Our protectors. Our creators. * Those who gave us purpose... * Then, one day we were all locked away in this prison... * And the Lightners never returned.

and ralsei has this to say:

* Our purpose - Darkners' purpose - is to assist [Lightners]. * It's the only way we can feel truly fulfilled.

to have meaning, darkners must be 'used'. but what happens when darkners reject their purpose? what happens if they refuse to serve lightners—when they live for themselves? this is exactly what spade king hoped to accomplish.

How dare you come here, Lightners...? You, that left us in the shadows, stripped of meaning... You DARE return to torment us once again? Begone! We have found fresh purpose. For the KNIGHT has appeared. The KNIGHT that pulls the Fountains from the Earth. Holy Fountains, whose shadows are creating a new world... OUR world.

guided by the knight, the spade king wants to create a new world for darkners: a world where they rule. it all sounds familiar, right? trying to create a new purpose for yourself, trying to find meaning rather than accept it... trying to rise above the ones who control you.

basically, i think gaster, kris, and spamton are thematically tied for a very important reason that we'll be learning more about soon. but for the rest of this, i'll let you make of it what you will, because i know i can't conclude anything definitively. the parallels between all of these characters are hard to ignore, however, and i'm certain this is leading up to something big. there are still many, many questions left unanswered. particularly, i really want to know what exactly gaster wants from these vessels... but since we're missing so much of the story, i feel satisfied with the conclusions i've drawn so far, because i think they tell an interesting story—and i REALLY can't wait to see where that story goes.

that being said. there's only one question that i truly, desperately need an answer to.

... what the hell is a pipis??????????

#deltarune #deltarune spoilers #gaster #spamton #okay i may have hyped this up as a really big well thought out masterpost but really it's just me rambling. sorry </3 #i really hope this wasn't too incomprehensible. my thoughts are still VERY scattered & excited so it's more than a little messy LOL #plus... my idea of what 'common knowledge' is regarding undertale is very skewed believe it or not. LOL #i may go back later and edit links to other posts explaining some of the stuff here for that reason!#anyway i like spamton a lot can you tell.#ANALYSIS

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brawltogethernow · 3 years

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@mirrorfalls submitted: Came across this while searching for James Bond’s scrambled-eggs recipe (long story). Your thoughts?

But did you find James Bond’s scrambled eggs recipe?

In this article, Scocca laments his inability to find accessible, lighthearted superhero comics suitable to read with his young son, while also demonstrating a mysterious aversion to looking at DC and Marvel’s lines of comics for children, which is where the accessible, lighthearted superhero comics suitable for reading with young children are. He wants his elementary schooler to be able to safely have the run of all superhero media so he doesn’t have to touch the yucky baby books.

This is not an industry-wide crisis. This is just one dude who got paid to write an article where he accidentally exposed one of his personal hangups.

The child headed toward the trade paperbacks of Marvel and D.C. superhero titles on the side wall […] a few steps in front of me. […] Is he with you? a clerk asked me. I said he was. You know, the clerk said, we have a kids’ section. The clerk gestured backward, at a few shelves near the entrance. I said, Thanks, we know and tried throwing in a little shrug, as the kid kept going.

You can’t just turn a seven-year-old child loose in a comic-book store to look at the superhero comic books. […] My seven-year-old really wanted to see that last Avengers movie […] that is, he wished it were a movie he could see, but he understood that it was, instead, a movie designed to scare and sadden him—a movie actively hostile to people like him.

They have a children’s section. Because comics are a medium suitable for stories for everybody, and they are sold in comic book shops, which have sections, like bookstores. You can use this organization to find books that you know in advance are suitable for children. What goes in that category is determined by industry professionals. This area will be bigger the bigger the shop is. These comics are not lower quality that titles from the main lines. They are actually slightly better-written on average.

Your local comic book shop has considerately wrapped Empowered in a plastic bag, so your child will not be drawn in by a colorful superhero and accidentally read a graphic scene. If you think your kid might find a memoir about internment camps upsetting, it is your job to notice them picking up They Called Us Enemy and read the blurb on the back before you let them have it. This comic adults are meant to read is in a comic book shop because that is where comics are sold. Not every public place is supposed to be Disneyland.

Movies have ratings systems. If you do not want your child to watch a PG-13 movie, you will find that most superhero cartoons are for children. They are about the same characters. Some are quite good! I really enjoyed Earth’s Mightiest Heroes. Your child may like Avengers Assemble. At least I think that’s right. I’m always mixing those titles around.

This is a deeply weird bias for Scocca to casually demonstrate, because he identifies in the article that real childishness is striving for empty maturity.

He compares an old comic,

[…]a 1966 Spider-Man comic in which Spider-Man meets, fights, and defeats the Rhino; participates in a running argument between John Jameson and J. Jonah Jameson about his heroism; buys a motorcycle; breaks up with his first girlfriend, Betty Brant; flirts with Gwen Stacy; and reluctantly agrees to let Aunt May take him to meet her friend Mrs. Watson’s niece, Mary Jane.

and a new comic,

[…]a 21st century comic book in which Thor, brooding in a Katrina-destroyed New Orleans, beats up Iron Man. He also yells at Iron Man a lot about some incomprehensibly convoluted set of grievances, including involuntary cloning, that he believes Iron Man perpetrated against him while he was dead(?), and then summons some other Norse god from the beyond somehow for reasons having something to do with real estate. I think. Where the 1966 comic is zippy and fun and complete, the whole contemporary one is muddled and lugubrious and seems to constitute a tiny piece of a seemingly endless plot arc—simultaneously apocalyptic and inert.

and concludes that the edgier comic is actually less mature. This is true. (This is not news about mediocre comics.)

It also has nothing to do with either comic being child-friendly, the article’s nominal thesis, except in the sense that ASM #41 (yes, I eyeballed that from that summary, yes I am just showing off now) is better written, making it more everyone-friendly. It also has practically more space dedicated to word balloons than art and is about a college student juggling girl problems and a part-time job with a tyrannical boss. But the immature one, as Scocca points out, is dour.

These are both teenagery issues, separated only by quality. It’s true that lots of new comics published by the big 2 are bad in the specific way Scocca describes here, taking themselves too seriously and hauled down by associated stories instead of buoyed by them. Some are not! Some titles from these companies’ main continuities are zippy, contained, and child friendly. Give your child The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl! Or if you like vintage comics so much better, why don’t you…buy some?

The books on the kid’s rack are good and fun and totally suitable for parents to read with their children without wanting to scoop their eyeballs out. Scocca cites the Batman ‘66 comics as the brightly colored, tightly written all ages solution to his problem about sharing superhero stories with his son. My local comic shop stores this title in the kid’s section. I am glad that Scocca’s does not, as he seems to have a peculiar aversion to looking for comics to read with his son there.

Scocca cites Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse as a superhero movie he could watch with his kids. (I was surprised when this line made it sound like he has several. I don’t want to assume the other one isn’t in this article because they’re a girl, but I very much am assuming that.) Great! Go to the kid’s section and look for Marvel Adventures: Spider-Man. It’s a fun, zippy title directly inspired by ITSV where Miles, Gwen, and Peter superhero together. It’s much more tightly written than most of the various Spider-Verse comics, which are ambitiously messy ubercrossovers. You may not want to give those to children because they include murder and so on, but also you just have the choice between the two as an adult reader deciding how much continuity you want to deal with. Adventures is one of the only titles I would buy on sight before corona. The kid comic rack is a reliable place to take a break from How Comics Get Sometimes regardless of how old you are.

This article makes me feel quarrelsome. Maybe it’s that it doesn’t seem like exploration of a single idea so much as a loosely grouped bundle of things to kvetch about. Maybe it’s that the experience of getting into superheroes that Scocca describes experiencing, projects his seven-year-old son will experience, and from which he extrapolates a metaphorical microcosm of the history of the genre is completely alien to me.

Comic books [and] comic-book movies—are […] trapped in their imagined audience’s own awful passage from childhood to adolescence. A seven-year-old has a clean […] appreciation of superheroes. They like hero comics because the comics have heroes: bold, strong, vividly colored good guys to fight off the bad guys and make the world safe.

But seven-year-olds stop being seven. […] They become 13-year-olds, defensively trying to learn how to develop tastes about tastes.

The 13-year-old wants many things from comics, but the overarching one is that they want to prove that they’re not some seven-year-old baby anymore. They want gloomy heroes, miserable heroes, heroes who would make a seven-year-old feel bad. (Also boobs. They want boobs.)

Not because of the boobs line, although that does illicit an eyeroll that this gloomy thinkpiece is fretting over preserving the superhero experience of little boys who resemble the little boy the writer was while casually dismissing everyone else. I was one of those unlikable little seven-year-olds with a college reading level and the impression that maintaining it was the crux of my worth. I only read Books - distinguished media you could club someone with. I have a formative memory of pausing, enraptured, in front of a poster for Spider-Man 3, preparing to say that it looked pretty cool, and being beaten to the punch by my mother making a disparaging comment about how the movie was trash. It wasn’t out yet, but it was a superhero movie. That meant it was for loud, brainless children.

That was the total of my childhood experience with superheroes, excluding being the unwilling audience to incessant renditions of “Jingle Bells, Batman Smells” that left me wondering why in god’s name Batman’s sidekick was named Robin. I certainly never visited a comic book shop. I got into TvTropes, which got me into webcomics, which got me following David Willis, who got me into Ask Chris at ComicsAlliance, which led to me rewarding myself for studying like a demon for the AP tests with three volumes of Waid’s Daredevil, pitched as a return to the character being colorful and swashbuckling. I was seven…teen.

This is of the same thread as Scocca’s point that immaturity is running from childish things. It leaves me baffled that he doesn’t follow that maturity is embracing them.

I will disclose here that while I think it was dumb I had to overcome my upbringing’s deeply embedded shame associated with enjoying arbitrarily defined lowbrow media and children being childish, I think it’s fine that I was allowed largely unchecked access to technically age-inappropriate content. In my limited experience, content small children are too young for is also content they’re too young to understand, so it kind of just bounces off of them, and what actually ends up terrorizing them is unpredictable collages of impressions that strike out at them from content deemed perfectly child-friendly. I would not forbid a seven-year-old I was in charge of from seeing an MCU movie unless I had a reason to believe that specific child would not take it well. These are emotionally low-stakes bubblegum films. It will probably be easier to socialize with other kids if they have seen them.

But then, when I picture being in charge of a hypothetical child, I usually imagine this being the case because they are related to me, and the pupal stage in my family strongly resembles Wednesday Addams. ALL children love death and violence, though, right?? This isn’t a joke point. I know it looks like a joke point.

The MCU thing seems especially weird in light of the article’s particular focus on Spider-Man, which is the kiddie line of the MCU, even if they refused to waver from their usual formula enough to get a lower rating. Though I am more inclined to describe it as “preying on the young” than “child-friendly”.

(MCU movies are increasingly dubious propaganda, but I would not judge them in front of a child who wanted to watch them for that reason, just in case this led to them partaking of them without me the second they were old enough to and then they grew up to run a blog about them while our relationship suffered because they didn’t feel like it was safe to talk to me about their interests…Mom.)

I tried to overcome the philosophy of letting anyone read anything while compiling this handful of mostly-newish superhero recs for the road that anyone can read. (Handily, I have been in spitting distance of being hired as a comic shop clerk enough to have thought about it before):

For actual children:

Marvel Adventures Spider-Man (the new one is reminiscent of ITSV, the old one is more like 616) any DC/Archie crossover, Archie’s Superteens The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (for bookish children who think they’re too good for comics and adults afraid of the kid’s section) Teen Titans Go (even if you hate the show) Superman Smashes the Klan

For teens:

Ms. Marvel Young Avengers (volume 2) Unbelievable Gwenpool Batman: Gotham Adventures Teen Titans Go (the tie-in comic based off the old show was also called this)

Here are a bunch of relevant C. S. Lewis quotes.

#me every time i read a comic book article by a rag not exclusively about comic books: i know more than you.#marvel #spidey #DCU #MCU critical #mirrorfalls #asks answered #submission #unearthed this and bashed it out in one sitting ... i have not been working on it since you sent it last year XD

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faunusrights · 3 years

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what is going on with all the bias on robyn hill’s wiki page, anyway? - an aside

As someone who uses the RWBY wiki with some degree of frequency - often because I’m looking for art references, or Semblance and weapon names - I’m used to... some amount of bias in the articles for different characters? Like, let’s be real, it’s not a perfect wiki! Community-maintained stuff isn’t easy to all keep on the same track! But, generally, it gives the facts well enough and doesn’t do too bad a job keeping all the balls in the air when it comes to new information from all four corners of this franchise.

Well, until you open the article for Robyn Hill, and realise it’s an absolute disaster. Like, really; the impartial voice just plain doesn’t exist for her, and almost all of her wiki is written in such a way that she reads as being an absolutely insufferable, hostile, hard-to-like character. Even if you aren’t a fan of Robyn personally, you have to admit that if you hadn’t seen the show yourself, you might very well come away from her article presuming she’s a major antagonist of Volumes 7 and 8.

Like, for instance, let’s take a look at the first paragraph of her Personality section:

Robyn has a direct and confident personality, having no trouble being confrontational with Atlas personnel, including the Ace Operatives. Robyn also seems to suffer from overconfidence and arrogance, shown in her encounters with Ruby and celebrating her election victory before it was verified. She is aggressive and hostile in nature, quickly jumping to conflict without thinking through consequences. However, she is also shown to be reasonable when the situation calls for it.

And, for good measure, here’s another paragraph from the same section:

In "With Friends Like These" Robyn displayed a rather impulsive side of her personality, when upon hearing that James Ironwood's plan to abandon Mantle and arrest those against him, she started a fight between herself, Clover Ebi, and Qrow Branwen onboard a Manta with Tyrian Callows in custody. Despite the fact, there was no order or her arrest. Her brashness led to Tyrian breaking free and crashing the Manta as well as her becoming unconscious.

(Taken from Robyn’s RWBY Wiki page. Bolding is mine.)

In every instance here, all of the “negative” aspects of her personality take centre stage; she’s confrontational. She suffers from arrogance. She is aggressive and hostile. She started the fight. Her brashness led to the crash. All of this is only compounded when her positive traits trail behind as an afterthought; she’s direct and confrontational, overconfident and arrogant, aggressive and hostile, impulsive and jumps to conclusions... but hey! As least she’s reasonable when the situation calls for it.

The way that this information is presented to the reader is quite literally on par with how the wiki presents the personalities of the actual literal villains who appear throughout the show. Let’s take, for instance, the Personality section of Cinder Fall:

Cinder is ruthless and sadistic, as demonstrated when she delivers a killing blow to a clearly defeated Pyrrha Nikos in "End of the Beginning" and when she throws a spear at a defenseless Weiss Schnee in "The More the Merrier." She is relentlessly driven to gain power and determined to cross any line to obtain it. Cinder demonstrates a cunning that shows in her successful manipulation of events and people throughout the first three volumes. Cinder is also arrogant and egomaniacal, and as such, relishes in dominance and gloating, displaying shameless pleasure in the misery she has caused others.

Or, the Personality section of Raven Branwen:

Raven is cynical, patronizing, selfish and stubborn. She believed her act of "kindness" of saving Yang's life from Neopolitan was sufficient despite having left Yang at a very young age and refused to protect her daughter when in need after that.

Raven is also very prideful and hypocritical, refusing to acknowledge her faults and always trying to justify her actions both to others and to herself, often putting the blame on others for them even if she feels real guilt about them.

It makes sense that for an antagonist, the primary faults and flaws of their personalities will come first, as to better represent them as the villains to clarify to the reader who they are and why they act as they do in their storylines. However, the fact that Robyn arguably has an even more caustic write-up then Raven, despite not being an antagonist, goes to show the lengths this writer has gone to present her in a significantly more negative light than she ever appears in the show.

If this doesn’t seem convincing, let’s look at a more direct comparison; what does the wiki say about Ironwood? He’s present in the same seasons, and has now become more of an antagonist in the latter episodes; is the wiki quite as blunt about his flaws?

Ironwood is courteous to his allies, as shown by his first onscreen interaction with Ozpin and Glynda Goodwitch. He is also far-thinking and tactical, wondering about the future, as seen when he speaks to Ozpin about Qrow Branwen's message. He also has a jovial, friendly, humorous and proud public persona, which he uses as a spokesman for the weapon manufacturers of Atlas.

However, as courteous Ironwood may appear, he can also be incredibly blunt, often preferring the direct approach. When he feels necessary, Ironwood is not afraid to bring the full might of his military command to bear, which sparked disagreements with both Glynda and Ozpin. Nevertheless, Ironwood is extremely loyal to his comrades, and however questionable his methods may be, he seems to have genuinely good intentions behind them.

Uh, no.

Instead, when his flaws are mentioned (for example, being blunt), it’s written in a significantly less... abrasive manner. It’s referred to as the direct approach, versus Robyn who is described as confrontational. Even then, his flaws are folded in to his (alleged) positive traits; he is not afraid, extremely loyal, and has genuinely good intentions, despite the fact that the show has now proven that Ironwood’s flaws greatly outweigh these. It reveals how thoroughly all of Robyn’s actions are presented as the work of an arrogant troublemaker, whilst Ironwood’s actions are presented as the efforts of a man working towards some greater good.

Also, I’ll add that in both examples, I used the first two paragraphs of their Personality sections. These are both the first two things you read about these characters, yet look at how differently they’re summarised.

What is interesting, however, is that despite this bias being extremely self-evident, the comments on her page generally chime agreement, referring to her as “overconfident, arrogant, impulsive and hotheaded to the point of being unlikable”, and claiming that she’s “literally the worse character in the show next to cinder, blake and yang”[1]. Someone mentions that Robyn has earned quite the hatedom... but why?

Broadly, my experiences of Robyn Hill’s writing in the fandom has been through a queer lens, and the vast majority of writers who’ve covered her and the Happy Huntresses have been women, or queer, or trans, or all the above... basically, the people who are usually responsible for a vast majority of fanfiction, let’s be real. These writers love Robyn, and have explored and extrapolated on her character to marvellous degree. Yet, at no singular point have any of these flaws ever been written quite as strongly as the wiki implies they are, nor have I seen much evidence of them myself in the show. For instance, let’s take one of the more serious points in her Personality section; she started a fight between herself, Clover Ebi, and Qrow Branwen [...] her brashness led to Tyrian breaking free and crashing the Manta as well as her becoming unconscious.

When we watch this scene again, Robyn did initiate the fight... because she was rightfully aware that Clover would obey his orders, even if they were wrong. Despite everything that happened prior in the entirety of Volume 7, when given orders to bring Qrow in alongside RWBY, it was clear that Clover fully intended to follow it through, which Robyn knows from prior experience with the AceOps:

[image ID: two images of Clover, Robyn and Qrow in the dark-grey interior of the Manta ship. Robyn has her weapon aimed at Clover as he stands in front of Qrow. Clover is saying “Only Qrow is under arrest [...] please don’t make me arrest you too.”]

Her knowledge of the AceOps means that she reacted accordingly; trying to stop him from taking Qrow in and obeying Ironwood’s plan the only way she knows the AceOps respond to. Her reaction isn’t unwarranted. However, my point isn’t to argue that Robyn was right or wrong, but rather that regardless of who started the fight, the way the wiki explains this specific incident is that it’s solely Robyn’s fault that Tyrian escaped and crashed the Manta, but we know this isn’t the case. Robyn and Qrow both fought Clover, and it was Clover’s good luck (or Qrow’s bad luck, depending on how you view it) that allowed for Kingfisher to break Tyrian’s bonds. Her brashness is blamed for the outcome, but in reality, this outcome could have been avoided together if Clover had not chosen to follow his orders and bring in an innocent man. Also, she didn’t crash the Manta! That was all Tyrian! The intentional tying together of these two events as her fault, however, are a neat package of blame.

In these instances on the wiki, Robyn’s personality appears amplified, focusing specifically on her flaws and exaggerating them to the extremes that, as noted earlier, matches the language used to define the very villains of the series. Yet, the people who enjoy her and the Happy Huntresses often perceive those same flaws to a significantly lesser extent, or even see those flaws as actually being boons of her character; for instance, reading her alleged arrogance as passion. So, why such division?

Before, I mentioned her “negative” traits, and I put this into quote marks because traits don’t always align nicely into good and bad. All aspects of a person can vary on how positive they are based on context - even the show proves this, with protectiveness becoming paranoia (Ironwood) or loyalty becoming subservience (Winter). Even a character that is broadly composed of more unfavourable traits can have this contextual shift; Cinder’s stubbornness to her goals makes her a fast learner and a tenacious opponent.

Yet, why did the writer (or writers) choose to highlight almost every aspect of Robyn’s character as a bad thing? Why did they frame her decisions as such? I have a suspicion it’s to do with her character at large; she’s a bold socialist politician who believes in equality and fairness for all, who refuses to stand for incompetence and obedience towards evil causes. She’s outspoken in her views, and reacts strongly to those who threaten to overturn her work. Also, she’s a woman, in charge of a group of other women, at least one of whom is canonically trans. To those who agree with her in real life, Robyn appears as a great character! We admire her work ethic and we support her ends. To those who may not... well, it’s not hard to see how they might perceive her as more of a cocky, authority-defying upstart. Of course, the core text of RWBY doesn’t quite believe the latter; RWBY has always placed Robyn as the direct counter to authoritarianism, whether it be Jacques, Clover, or Ironwood, and even the article admits that she is a potent voice for the people of Mantle. Still, it’s clear that there’s plenty of people in a vocal minority who are deeply dissatisfied by Robyn, and aren’t afraid to make their stance on the matter exceedingly clear.

So, what does this all mean? Well, here’s what we can say for sure; Robyn’s article is, and has always been, stringently biased against her character, and often misconstrues her motives and decisions. This is maybe the more obvious part, but how should her article be worded to make this less so? Likely, I’d rephrase a lot of it to be less damaging to her character; she isn’t hostile, she holds people accountable. She isn’t quick to jump to conflict, she is familiar with how Atlas responds to anti-authority with violence. She isn’t arrogant, she believes in the power of the people as being the right thing to fight for. Even this makes it clearer that her character is about resisting the oppression inherent in Atlas, and is a much clearer outline of her personality as a whole. People may disagree with this phrasing and summary also, but given her character is based on Robin Hood, it’s also not far from the mark in terms of what she should represent.

TL;DR: Robyn’s wiki page is written with a deep bias against her character and what she represents, acts upon, and chooses to do in the show; I have no doubt that in canon, this sort of language would probably be used by Jacques himself as a smear campaign, haha. Whilst I can’t speak for the author and their motives, I have a distinct feeling that this article was written, or edited, by someone who is either:

not a fan of Robyn

not a fan of a new female character

not a fan of a new female character in a position of power

not a fan of a character with socialist/communist/antifa ideals

all of the above and then some???

Even though I’m not going to edit her wiki page (I’m very shy and I’ve never done it before), I think it’s worth analysing this if only as a reminder of the inherent biases of an author even when people are trying to present a character’s information impartially. This isn’t the first wiki I’ve seen misconstrue - or even make incorrect assumptions on - facts about a character, and it won’t be the last. In the meantime, though, I leave you with this fact:

Robyn Hill slaps huge nuts and I love her.

[1] I’m not naming the users who posted these things here, because it’s unnecessary. You can find them for yourself at the bottom of Robyn’s wiki, but there’s no need to respond; some people just don’t like Robyn, and that’s fine - I’m just explaining how bias leaks into wikis like water into a sponge. It happens!

#rwby #rwde #robyn hill #murphy's thoughts and vibes on this shit (again)#is this a new tag #i haven't really written this well and it was sort of off the cuff so sorry if there's mistake #*mistakes #LMAO #i just wanted to lay my Thoughts out #i swear if even one person msgs me like 'but robyn DOES suck' im banishing you to the Spray Cheese Hell Dimension #also im tagging as rwde but its not rwde against the show (FOR ONCE??) so

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sleepyjuniper · 3 years

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HI! I am June, and I love movies! I've been working on something, and I don't usually post my work because I don't get a lot of views, but I feel what I've written here is really important, and I would very much appreciate a read, and maybe an upvote if you enjoy what you've read! I've really put my heart out on the line here, and it would be great for it to get some traction, so a movie I care about greatly can finally get some recognition.

So, Home is now back on Netflix. As a result, the passion I've always felt for this film has been rekindled, and now feels like the perfect time to bring it back to attention, to get it the praise it truly deserves. To explain, I was watching it last week and I suddenly had an epiphany. I suddenly connected more with Oh's character than I ever had before, and every little detail in the movie started to pop out at me and further strengthen this feeling. I became so obsessed with the depth of it's heavy emotional scenes and gorgeous visuals that I immediately got to writing. It gets a bit tricky to collect my thoughts every time I try to address what this writing actually is; it's not necessarily an analysis, not necessarily an essay, because it lacks direction and a real conclusion, or motive, I guess. I'm simply going in depth into the scenes that I think are most pivotal to Oh's development as a character, and providing my own personal insight into how he's thinking and what he's feeling, based on the evidence I am able to glean from what the movie shows me, rather than tells me. I'm picking into each scene and bringing to light the specific details that make it so powerful to me, and how these details allow me to fully understand and connect with the characters in a way I can't with other films.

But regardless of what it is, the more in depth I go, the more it speaks to me, and the more I understand it. The more reason I have to believe that Oh has a perfect character arc, which is so well written and perfectly pulled off, that it creates a movie that is authentic, heartfelt, and complete in every way. There's simply no other like it. Now, with no further ado, let's get into it.

Every good story starts with an introduction to the main character. The beginning scenes of Home introduce us to Oh's character perfectly. They depict him as an adorable misfit with a propensity to make mistakes, who just wants to make friends. We learn that he is widely disliked by the rest of the Boov because of his differences, that he adores Captain Smek, and that he believes Boov are best at everything. We learn a lot about his personality too. All the Boov look similar, but he is much more animated than the other Boov, moving with more energy, and appears to be in a perpetual state of excitement. He’s the only Boov we see smiling at first, and what really sets him out is the way he emotes. While most of the Boov carry neutral expressions, their eyebrows relaxed, his eyebrows are constantly raised and his eyes are wide, making them stand out much more prominently. His color changing also adds an extra layer to his character, allowing us to see even deeper into what he's feeling at any given point during the movie. The movie can tell us more, with less words. It is immediately apparent to the audience just how different Oh is from the rest of his people; we can clearly see from the get-go that Oh's emotions work differently than the rest of the Boov. And this only adds to the impact of later scenes, as he starts to experience more complex emotions and venture further into unknown territory.

When the starting conflict of the story is introduced, we learn about the first real challenge he needs to overcome. He made a mistake, and is now on the run from his own people, who want to arrest him. Right now, his motivation is simply to avoid capture. It can be assumed that until now, Oh hasn't faced danger alone. He's likely faced danger while the Boov were running away from the Gorg, but he was always facing the threat with the rest of his species. This is the first time he's been completely alone while running from something, and it's all his fault too. We can pick all of this up from context, and feel sympathy for him and his terror, which is very much justified.

When Oh and Tip first meet, they start out not liking each other, and have conflicting opinions. Oh believes the Boov are more advanced than humans because Smek said so, and he doesn't understand why Tip cares so much about one human. Conversely, Tip hates Oh because his species is the reason she's separated from her mother. They are agreeing to work together out of common interest, that's it. Oh has promised to help Tip find her mom, but he does this only to avoid capture. These scenes are full of fun quips and hilarious antics, as the movie starts to build up a foundation for Oh's character dynamic with Tip. What the movie conveys to us is that these two characters don't know each other, and don't have any interest in listening to and understanding each other.

Things really pick up later in the movie. Oh disappears for a long while, and when he returns, Tip yells at him, and he stops in his tracks, looking genuinely astounded and confused by her anger. He was especially shocked that she was afraid he'd been hurt. We can actually see the moment he does a double-take at the realization that she had been worried about him. Likely, no one has ever worried about him before. For the first time, we see him actually absorb what she's saying, listening to her with a curious expression as she tells him to try and put himself in her shoes. Tip explains to him that kids aren't supposed to be by themselves, and that the Boov's arrival ruined everything for her. When Oh says that Boov don't have families, she remarks that it's no wonder they take things and don't care about anyone else. This gives him pause, and he appears to think carefully, before speaking. No amount of explanation can really do this scene justice, so a direct quote of his monologue is needed. He says: "So, your mimom.. is a very important humansperson to you. More important than others. To not belong with her.. causes you being sad. But, recent moments ago, you are kicking on me and yelling. Which is seeming more to be mad than sad." This gives us the first true indication that Oh is trying to be more open minded. Tip tells him to try and feel how she feels, and he does. With genuine sincerity, he's trying to understand how Tip can be feeling two emotions at once. Tip looks surprised by his sincerity, and has no energy to continue talking, but she listens, and she gets back into the car when he's finished. Not only does Oh state out loud that humans are more complicated than he thought, this scene is important because it's the first time they have anything close to a genuine moment of understanding. Simply put; he sees her react in a way he didn't anticipate, is perplexed by it, and pushes aside his own belief that he already knows everything about humans, and just asks her questions to understand her better. It is the first small sign of growth we get to see from him.

Tip and Oh gradually warm up to each other more over the course of their next few escapades. Oh explains to Tip why he's in trouble, and Tip realizes he's sad, and cheers him up by teaching him about jokes. They make a plan to give Oh a makeover so they can sneak into the Great Antenna without being caught, and Tip seems amused by his antics rather than annoyed. In the Antenna, Oh helps Tip find out where her mom is, and Tip hugs him. He looks surprised and uncertain for a moment, but quickly adjusts to it and even smiles, turning orange and hugging her back. From the information we have, we can extrapolate that this may or may not be the first time he's ever been hugged, due to the Boov's aversion to both Oh and physical contact. This is the most affection Tip has expressed with him so far, and he seems to just melt into it. He also looks as if he wasn't ready for the hug to end so abruptly. It's a sensation he's unfamiliar with, but immediately decides he wants.

This is when we see Oh, specifically, starting to trust Tip a bit more and even maybe like her, and their escape from the Tower shows them working with a newfound chemistry as they outsmart the Boov. We can tell Oh is scared at several points during the scene, because his yellow coloring indicates it, but he's also grabbing onto Tip as if it gives him reassurance. He trusts her enough to at least find comfort in her presence, which is something that wasn't true of their relationship in the beginning.

Following the events of the Eiffel Tower scene, Tip starts to talk about her mom, excited to find her and maybe even come back to Paris. When she turns around, Oh is standing further away and looking at the now wrecked central command, his skin displaying a dejected blue color. What does he have to come back to after everything is over? Tip knows where she belongs, but Oh would never be able to go back to the Boov in safety after his mistake. He is questioning his belonging. Tip notices he's sad, and attempts to cheer him up. It doesn't work, but Oh does something that surprises Tip. He apologizes to her. During the confrontation with Smek, Oh finally realized how Smek was wrong for causing the misunderstandings between Boov and Humans, and that he would never accept any Boov for showing individuality. Oh acknowledges everything that he previously thought about humans was wrong, and that Captain Smek was also wrong. He even looks ashamed to tell her that in the beginning, the Boov thought humans were simple and uncomplicated, and that they needed the Boov. He tells her he thinks the Boov should never have interfered with Earth, and that he's sorry for how it affected her. He doesn't say anything during his apology that would guilt Tip into responding a certain way; just gives an honest apology, and allows her the freedom to decide how she reacts. This is something that's incredibly meaningful coming from Oh. He's not trying to get anything from her, he's just apologizing for something he was complacent in and is now feeling regretful about. It's raw and heartfelt. She hands him the keys, and he looks surprised at first, then gives a huge smile, holding the keys close to his heart and turning orange.

The following scene is perhaps the most important one in the film, and is incredibly impactful. Accompanied by the gentle tune of a song that slowly gets louder as the movie switches from dialogue between characters to simply visual storytelling, we watch as Oh and Tip take turns driving, and exchange vulnerability with each other, both describing their own experiences with being misfits. We see them laughing together, taking selfies, and just in general enjoying each other's company. Tip completely accepts Oh for who he is, and in turn he lets his walls down, and is finally able to be himself. This is a real bond they've formed. They are truly friends. Both look nothing alike, yet have so much in common.

Finally, we see Oh taking his turn driving at night while Tip sleeps, and he goes to tuck her back in when her blanket falls down. As we hear Kiezca's 'Cannonball' playing in the background (and on the radio) he takes a moment to appreciate the things in the car, discovering he does indeed enjoy them. Finally, he adjusts his mirror to watch Tip sleep, and we see him slowly turn a brand new color: pink. If you were to recap his life so far, the significance of this moment becomes clear. Oh is outgoing and friendly, but he's never fit in in his entire life. No matter how hard he tried to fit in with the Boov, he simply had emotional needs that the rest of the Boov did not, and as such they did not care about or recognize his need. Tip is the first person who has ever listened to him and gotten to know him, and accepted him for who he is. She's his first friend. In this moment, he is looking at Tip, and he's feeling something he's never felt before: love. It feels like a part of him he's always been missing has finally been found. For the first time in his life, he feels like he belongs.

We find Oh further appreciating Tip's qualities when they find the Gorg super-chip; he was afraid to go towards the ship but she convinced him, and when it worked out he realized that her idea had worked out better than his would have. He realized he can achieve things through being brave rather than giving up; essentially, if you don't even try, you can never succeed. You can see in his expression after Tip smirks at him that he was surprised; he realized he had faced his fears, all because of Tip's help.

We see a monumental backslide in his progress when he leaves Tip instead of staying by her side and fulfilling his promise. His greatest challenge is revealed to be that he's still not brave; not brave enough to put his faith in the one he cares about, not brave enough to face his fears and stick by her no matter what. We do know that he's terrified; both of being left alone, and of losing Tip. He has just found a sense of belonging with Tip that he's never felt before, and he can't bear to lose that. He tries to bring her with him, and she feels betrayed and breaks off the friendship. The detail that went into this scene makes it incredibly impactful. It's raw and filled with emotion. For context, during the course of the movie, we only see a Boov go pale in the face during a few very intense situations, and said pale-ing was usually followed by fainting. This suggests that a lack of color is indicative of a much stronger, primal emotion: dread, or pain. When Tip turns and leaves, he loses pigment. He blanches, and staggers. There's a physical impact of Tip's words on Oh. This isn't simply sadness or fear he's feeling, it's anguish. It's his world falling apart, his heart breaking. He is quite literally torn in two, as he looks back and forth between his best friend and his chance at escape, changing rapidly from red to yellow to blue and back again. It emphasizes his turmoil; the panic he feels at seeing a rapidly closing window to decide what action to take, before he turns back to what he's always known, running away. There's high stakes on both sides, and we as an audience can feel his pain, as he displays clear indecision and helplessness at this impossible choice.

As the Boov travel farther from Earth, bringing the Gorg with them, Oh and Tip have never been farther apart. As the Gorg mothership closes in, everyone runs to the other side of the ship; all except Oh, who stares it down. He knows he can save everyone. He pulls out the super-chip, his gaze hardening with determination, and runs against the flow of the crowd to plant it in the control panel. Everyone stops to stare in disbelief, crowding around him afterwards, curious to hear him speak. Smek tries to ostracize him for acting unBoov-like, and Oh directly challenges him. He tells the listening crowd that he used to believe what Smek said was right, but he'd learned things that said otherwise. He talks about the human he met, and how she's smart and brave, and has an emotional capacity for caring for others that Boov lack. During this monologue, we see his skin turn pink again as he talks about Tip, reminding us as that he does still care about her. This also reminds him of his own actions, and he turns blue, concluding his speech by saying that the Boov may be better in some ways, but not in the ways he thinks are most important now. He realizes that Tip has strengths that are/would have been useful many times for the Boov. This is when it becomes apparent that he's regretting leaving; Tip made him stronger, and he now knows he can be as brave as she is.

Which is why it's an incredible payoff scene when he is made leader. He's surrounded by Boov who are cheering for him, but he feels lonelier than ever. He wanted to be accepted, but he wasn't ready to be looked up to. It doesn't feel right, he doesn't belong here. When he watches the view of Earth grow smaller as it fades into the distance, he actually cries, and catches a tear as it rolls down his cheek, a pensive look crossing his face. He pulls out Tip's keychain, and all in one instant he realizes why he's so miserable. He doesn't feel like he belongs here, because he belongs with Tip. It's where he's meant to be. He turns pink, looking hopeful, and in the next scene he turns up on earth, by himself, and finds Tip. It's not really necessary to explain why this is an important development; we can see everything there is to be said in the way they compose the scene. There's also the parallel shots where we see Tip and Oh both pushing through crowds and both looking completely alone despite all the people around them, emphasizing that they need each other. Oh just had to figure out he could follow Tip's example, what he'd learned from her bravery, to realize he could still salvage things. He realized a life feeling alone among the Boov was worth nothing, and a life with someone he truly cares about is worth facing any danger, no matter what may come.

Oh and Tip are reunited, and he tells her what he learned, that he realized she's his friend, and he belongs with her. You can see from the look they share that both of them feel this way. They've come full circle, to a full understanding and acceptance of each other.

Oh helps Tip find her mom, finally fulfilling his promise, and when the Gorg attack and he realizes it's because of the Boov, he tells Tip he's fixing his mistake, protecting the reunited family by making it so they're unable to chase him and be put in danger. He loves Tip, and he wants her and the human she cares most about to be safe. He's not about to let her risk losing that. So, bravely, yet stupidly, he runs to the Gorg mothership and holds up the thing they've been chasing the Boov for all this time. He tries to do it on his own, which is a major sign of his growth as a character, but the only reason the Gorg actually see him is because Tip has his back. He was fully prepared to sacrifice himself. When the ship is closing in on him, and the dust and sparks are blinding him, he turns around, and sees Tip running to him. He smiles, his trust fully in her; if he doesn't get out of this, she can save everyone else. He throws the rock to her before the ship covers him, choosing to put his faith in her in what he believes to be his final moments. He went from caring only about his own survival, to caring about the survival of his best friend, and wanting Tip to help make peace with the Gorg so the Boov and humans can be safe as well.

After we see Tip mourn for Oh before it's revealed that he's okay, she pulls him in for a hug, and he immediately embraces her back, then over Tip's shoulder we see him looking at her fondly, smiling, and he turns a vibrant pink as he closes his eyes and leans into the hug. Just by the look in his eyes in this scene, we can see that he's fully appreciating this being who cared about him enough to listen to him, to stand by him and stand up for him, and run after him when he's in danger. In this moment, he's getting a second chance to embrace her, when he went in not knowing if he'd ever see her again. In this moment it was all worth it. Because he looks at her, and he is home.

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fiddlepickdouglas · 4 years

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Reasons I Care About Bobby Wilson (this post is for people who wonder why I do):

Sorry, just saw an anti-Bobby post and I shouldn't get like this over a fictional character, but here I go, I guess.

The things people don't like

We can agree that not crediting Luke, Reggie, and Alex for their songs was awful. That is a serious line to cross and he's got to make up for that if he's ever to be seen as a truly good guy.

It can also be agreed upon that his shady/not as cool character is set up by the way he interacts with the boys and Rose. Lying about being vegetarian, trying to send the boys off to eat hot dogs so he can flirt more (from which we have a thousand heacanons about him being in a relationship with Rose and also theories that he somehow killed his own band).

These things don't paint him as brightly as the rest of our himbos. I'd like to assert that we are being shown a mere glimpse of this character and the intro showed him in a weak moment. We can discuss good and proper flirting tactics elsewhere, but these methods aren't uncommon, especially for a teen in 1995. The song stealing - absolutely inexcusable. There's no way I, or anyone else, would or should try to dispute that.

This next part is in response to the tag I read saying 'he acts like a douche' and aside from the above things, what else do we see?

What he really does

Let's look at Bobby as a teen briefly. He plays Now or Never with the boys, and upon finishing the sound check goes right into celebrating their performance. Then he sees a cute girl who is also celebrating the performance and wants to get to know her better. This attempt is momentarily interrupted by the rest of his band, and while he is slightly annoyed, he isn't outright rude. He reminds them of plans they already had to send the message that he wants a chance with this girl - if I were in a similar situation I don't imagine myself handling it too much better. I understand that's really up to individual scrutiny, but I don't take this as 'oh he's a jerk'.

We don't see him again until the issue of copyright comes up and they visit his mansion. In these moments, we see him the way Luke, Reggie, and Alex do: an intolerable thief. However, the use of the songs is already a thing of the past. The Bobby, now Trevor, we see presently makes a practice of checking in with his daughter briefly, meditating, and has a therapist. We can all laugh at Reggie's line about the sunglasses, but without the boys there, he just comes off as a chill dad who sticks to his cool dude aesthetic even when his child finds it embarrassing.

The fear he experiences when the boys haunt him is clearly very mixed. Regardless, resurfacing the trauma of his band dying and then seeing paranormal activity in his own home that is targeted toward him in a mildly antagonistic manner is sort of a weighty subject. That poor therapist.

Then he sees the Edge of Great video. Can I just point out that he takes interest because he sees Julie? She's what grabs his attention. Whether it's because of Julie's goddess-like talent or because he recognizes his daughter's friend and notices his daughter bringing her up in a way she hasn't in about year, we don't know yet. But Julie is the star and he knows it. And then he sees them. His old band from 25 years ago, back from the dead and not a day older than 17. He doesn't even have to feel guilty to respond the way he did - that's just the response of a 42 year old man who is seeing straight *read: it's never straight* witchcraft before his eyes.

I'm not sure why he would call to get himself and Carrie into the show on the spot aside from pure curiosity. The who, what, when, where, and why of it all is a lot to take with his guilty conscience on top. Seeing him shake at the end is definitely a combination of all those things.

I almost forgot to include him playing in Unsaid Emily, but not much can be said about it. I still think it's sweet that Luke felt comfortable enough sharing that song with his whole band and that they rehearsed it. As a bandmate and a friend, Bobby must have been at least cool enough to gain that confidence, and more not to include it in the songs he claims as his own later.

Anyhow, those things are what we see and it's somewhat polarizing apparently. Julie's mom, Rose, retained a fairly close friendship with him, which says a great deal. If Julie is anything like her mom, or if we extrapolate from Julie's character how good of a parent Rose was, we can imagine how good of a character judge she was. As a teen, maybe not quite as good (although she is played to be specifically in tune with her feeling about how good the band is, so I don't think so). Maturing into adulthood and still having Bobby as a friend implies that either he was extremely fake with her the whole 24 years they were friends, or he actually wasn't that terrible to be around.

What we don't know

As much as we all love our headcanons, there's still a great deal of mystery about Bobby. And frankly, I feel like it depends on which headcanons we choose to like that cement our feelings toward him (although enjoying Taylor Kare as an actor and a human being can also have great influence here as well). I've seen some hcs that say he was a big brother to the guys and that make him seem soft and I really enjoy them. I choose to believe we are shown some of his worst moments and he has potential for good. Others really like the drama and mystery behind the "he somehow murdered the boys" and frankly I can't say they're wrong for it. But there are certainly details that could help define him that we've yet to see:

What was he actual relationship with the guys? Was he really a fourth wheel, just a rhythm guitarist they needed, or was he just as close?

What happened right after the boys died? Did he go on with the show or did he cancel?

Was he involved in telling their families the bad news? Did he attend their funerals? Did he disappear before he could get involved?

How did he manage to bury his old identity and keep his friendship with Rose?

Was he victimized by the music industry? Was taking the credit his idea or was he put in a difficult position that made him make a bad choice?

Who in the world is Carrie's mom and is she a part of their life? How does this affect them?

What is he going to do about the boys now? Could he actually do anything to harm their career as a band? Would he or does he want closure?

I guess what I want to accomplish here is explain that you're welcome to feel what you feel about Bobby, but you can't tell me "it's not that deep." It is. Plus I love the representation we get from both actors who play him on the show and anyone who is mad about that can assume I don't take their opinion seriously.

#julie and the phantoms #jatp #bobby #bobby wilson #trevor wilson #long post #sorry i got carried away #when i swerved into this lane i stayed

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the-ice-sculpture · 3 years

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I’m really tired of seeing thinly (or not so thinly) disguised insults towards anyone who has even a few criticisms of the Loki show. These insults often come with an air of self-believed intellectual superiority and condescension. Whether it’s intended or otherwise, there are underlying implications and insinuations in common arguments I’ve seen a lot of, which basically boils down to the following:

You can’t distinguish between your own personal headcanons and reality = you'll push your own idea of what something should be onto something so much you won’t even be aware of it and you’ll be frustrated when it doesn’t meet those expectations. You don’t have enough self-awareness to tell the difference between what exists in your imagination and what exists in reality (unlike me, who doesn’t need to push any ideas about what I’d like in terms of characterisation because I personally believe the show already happens to reflect that)

You don’t understand the nuance of it = you’re not intelligent enough to think in shades of grey and varying degrees of subtlety and interpret this (the same way I do). Your thinking is shallow and your ability to analyse lacks depth. Regardless of your justification, if you think there are OOC moments, then you’re just failing to pick up on the nuance. You need someone (such as me) to hold your hand and tell you what to think and how to see (what I claim) is really there

You don’t understand how storytelling works = you can’t recognise any devices used and why they’re used. (Unlike me, you’re not clever enough to understand what the show is doing and the purpose of why it’s doing it.) If you criticise some of the execution of the storytelling methods the show has adopted then it can only be from a lack of understanding on your end and nothing else

You just want the show to be like fanfiction = you’re incapable of wanting different things from fanfiction and canon and you don’t have the intelligence to recognise this. (I know this because I can recognise this and ‘diagnose’ it in other people)

Loki’s obviously acting to trick the TVA/people into underestimating him = it’s idiotic not to interpret this theory that’s currently unconfirmed in canon as of S01E03 the same as me. If you have doubts then you’re incapable of picking up on the clues that (I personally believe) are there

You’re determined to not like the show. You want to tear it apart = all of your opinions and arguments can and should be rendered invalid regardless of your justification. If you don’t like certain aspects then it’s because you never gave the show a fair go to begin with. Therefore, you’re narrowminded and it’s your own fault if you don’t like it/elements of it because you never wanted to like it in the first place. You want to be miserable

You’re all the same = you can’t think for yourself. Each one of you can be generalised to one hivemind-like entity with no variance in opinions or your justification of them and you’ll blindly follow each other without any critical thought. If you express criticism, you’re now an anti. It’s black and white: either you’re completely pro-show or anti-show and there’s no room for anything in between

You’re stuck in the past = if you’re not completely onboard with any tonal and character changes you find jarring then you’re incapable of accepting change. You just want something unimaginative and uncreative and boring (which I might imply reflects your personality)

It’s not until now that Loki’s finally shown in character = people who thought he was in character in previous movies are wrong and aren’t real fans if they don’t accept this. There’s no room for extrapolation from previous movies, and if you do that then you’re just using your own headcanons so you must be wrong about any perceived changes in his character. (But if I extrapolate from previous movies to justify some of the show’s choices with his characterisation, then that’s completely fine)

You’re making your mind up before the whole show is even released = you can’t have any opinions about the show so far until you’ve seen all the episodes. (Unless, like me, you’re happy with the show)

If you’re reading this and are agreeing with the takes on anyone who expresses so much as a few criticisms, then please read the rest of this post.

I want to emphasise that it’s only a fraction and far from all people who like the show who I’ve seen these kind of takes from, and I have nothing against people enjoying the show. It’s only when I see stuff like the claims listed above that I become frustrated.

People will have different takes and interpretations, it’s only natural. No one can call an interpretation of a character and/or how they’re presented objectively wrong or objectively right. But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for anyone to resort to insulting others (whether blatantly or through implication) who have opinions that differ to their own.

Just as a thought experiment, let’s try this the other way around, shall we? Let’s imagine that some of the people who aren’t enjoying aspects of the show start spreading posts about the people enjoying it. If this was to occur, there’d probably be posts about how anyone who thinks he’s in character will blindly go along with whatever show creators tell them, that they (the fans of the show) must have never understood the depth of Loki to begin with so they can’t be real fans, that they’re so determined to enjoy the show that they’ll twist the narrative to suit their own needs and desperately invent reasons to accept it...

I could think of more but I’m going to stop here because, ultimately, it’s not nice, is it? It comes across as a super shitty thing to do for a reason: it is super shitty.

I hope it goes without saying that I'm not claiming the examples I made up are true. No one should be claiming anything like the things I invented for my thought experiment are true in public, no matter where on the spectrum of opinions on the show they sit. It’s rude and insulting and would contribute greatly towards further fandom division and a toxic environment filled with feelings of hostility over something fictional to begin with.

No one is intellectually superior for their opinions on a TV show. People can and should feel however they feel about the show. In an ideal world, they should be able to express that without any harassment or being treated in a derogatory manner or made to feel like they have no place in fandom. This goes for negative opinions and positive opinions and anything in between.

I just really wish people would keep their opinions restricted to the content of the show itself rather than reactions to it sometimes for reasons like this. If groups of people can’t do it without feeling the need to make it out like they’re intellectually superior and anyone who expresses opinions that differ to theirs must be stupid then maybe they shouldn’t be doing it at all. Especially when the overwhelming majority of the more critical people go out of their way to tag their stuff so more positive people can avoid it if it gets them down. More critical people don’t have to do it, but the vast majority of the time they do it as a curtesy. It’d be nice if that curtesy wasn’t repaid by being so disrespected.

And please, before piling on someone’s post about how they’re just lacking a nuanced understanding or are applying their own headcanons, maybe consider that your own interpretation of someone’s opinion could be doing precisely the same thing.

One final thing I’m adding as a preventative measure: if your response to reading this is something along the lines of going ‘but some people really can’t distinguish their headcanons from reality!’ then you’ve really missed the point. The point of this post isn’t to debate whether or not every claim is valid (that would have to be a case by case analysis, and it would be so open to interpretation that you could never reach a definitive conclusion anyway, so it’d be pointless). The point is that it’s incredibly rude to publicly insult someone’s intelligence and make up a bunch of condescending assumptions about them based on their opinions. If you’re treating someone or a group of people in real life like that (and yes, if they’re from the internet then they’re still real people) then you’re doing something far worse than the people I’ve seen branded as toxic people for expressing criticisms of fiction.

*For the record, I’m not saying that anyone with criticisms has never said something along the lines of my thought experiment examples. I haven’t seen any of that myself, but I’m not all knowing. I’m just reflecting on what I have seen, and the vast majority of it has come from a fraction of people without (or with far fewer) criticisms of the show. But it’s irrelevant who it comes from, because my point remains the same: it’s shitty regardless of who says it

#loki series #my posts #fandom wank #I may regret posting this

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ameasureofpower · 3 years

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For the mun: What is your opinion on AUs? How would Walton be in a Futuristic AU? Historical AU? Modern day AU?

(I love them regardless of whom I am rping, though my OC characters are typically created for one original or one fandom verse only. Really, any fandom rp is an AU, but to take that extra step and remove them further from their canon verse is like having tea and cake for dessert. Delicious.

...

Upon reflection, I've surmised a trend in how I approach interpreting Walton Simons in timeline AUs. There are always staples to his character that I will try to follow: engrossed with achieving physical excellence, battling some sort of chronic pain, emotionally stunted, cold-calculating-collected, stoic, corrupted prick, but there is one major difference in his motives/agency. The further away from his canon time period (2000s-2100s C.E. ...modern era-ish) the more I shift his attitude towards the concept of power from one that wishes to obtain power to assert it over others to one that wishes to obtain power to assert it over himself. For instance...

Prehistoric AU (yes, I have one) - tribal warrior who wishes to overcome his environment. Not politically power hungry at all.

General Space-Futuristic AU (Mass Effect, Star Wars, Warhammer 40k) - some breed of rebellious admin/militant mix with a desire to be autonomous. Power hungry only to free himself or keep himself free. ...Bonus: I really enjoy the thought of him being a slaver, drug addict and an occasional man toy for some older matron, in the ME AU

Versus...

Classical AU / Medieval AU - admin/militant mix with desire to obtain more resources (land, money, people, prestige etc) to rise in authority

Western AU / Industrial Rev AU / Colonies (any location) AU - business/admin with desire to obtain more resources to better his cause and rise in wealth

WW2 AU / (WW1 was a stupid tragedy and I won't insult any side by placing WS with them) / Cold War Era AU - specific actions and politics will depend on what nationality I make him, but as an admin/militant he will use power to subjugate others. Extrapolate as you will.

Modern Era AUs - business/admin who uses power to subjugate others for mostly monetary gain

Bonus: Post Apoc AU - militant looking to control his environment AND people so he can survive

...

Overall, he will be an embodiment of some sort of hideous corruption of power, which sports some sort of prejudice or line of thinking that generally earns 0/10 stars on a "this is fine" scale.

Thank you for the ask!)

#not unlike himself

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thephantomporg84 · 4 years

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What do you think Dante or Vergil would be like if they were in love?

If I had to guess, I personally think they’d surprise people by being the polar opposite of what one might expect*.

I feel like Vergil would be the type that’s smitten but isn’t (or at least doesn’t come across as) overly attached. Makes little jabs and (sometimes snide) remarks at the person instead of saying the usual affectionate things like ‘I love you’ because that’s boring to him, and the person is fiery/will absolutely return the sentiment — and he finds that as enthralling as any fight.

With that all being said, he probably be the type to watch this person get into a fight and observe what they can do/find it entertaining rather than immediately put an end to it — he’s aware they can handle themselves and, quite frankly, he finds it both refreshing and entertaining. In a hypothetical bar fight** during a date/misc. outing, he’d be looking on with disdain but would slide the object of his affections the tumbler to glass someone with.

He’d likely be straightforward about what he is, and impressed/especially interested when the person doesn’t so much as bat an eyelash at it. Wouldn’t show outward affection normally, at all, but it’s there in little ways — the soft side glances when they aren’t looking, how tight he holds on to them at night, etc.

Conversely, I feel like Dante*** would be much more likely to be the type to treat the whole relationship/the person like it’s/they’re made of glass. (Maybe not quite as fragile as glass, but yeah.) He treats the whole relationship surprisingly delicately and with a lot of thoughtfulness, especially at first, because he feels like the other shoe is going to drop at some point (esp. since he has a habit of doing that with even his friendships), and may even temporarily stop teasing/being annoying entirely for fear of ruining things. But that may cause some trouble because it makes the person feel like the person they got involved with is completely different than the one they were attracted to in the first place and may try to hide what he is for as long as possible.

Eventually, though, the truth would come out and he’d have no trouble teasing/expressing affection/etc. once he was sure the person wasn’t going anywhere. While I also don’t think he’d be overbearing or a killjoy, he’d be much more likely to put a stop to that same hypothetical bar fight immediately and/or join in, especially early on. He understands that the person can take care of themselves, but it still doesn’t stop him from, say, delivering a few tiny, bone-crushing kicks with his boot heel from his barstool when you aren’t looking during a fight.

He probably enjoys being big spoon, but occasionally just... needs to be little spoon regardless of any potential size differences. Probably has a habit of falling asleep halfway on top of the object of his affections and/or pulling them on top of him and having an iron grip on them when he sleeps (lol).

*These are all just my thoughts from casual observation of the characters and people with personalities kind of like theirs irl, so feel to take this all with a grain of salt if you don’t agree or it feels ‘off’ or something, lol. Absolutely by no means am I a psychologist, but I think I’m decent enough at watching/reading people/characters and extrapolating.

**I realize a bar fight is quite possibly one of the most unromantic things you could possibly talk about regarding this type of question, but it’s DMC, so I think it’s a little more tasteful than graphically describing hacking up demons on a date lmao.

***This one’s longer and I feel a more confident about this bc I almost exclusively date this type of personality irl, for what that’s worth — hell, *I* have this personality to an extent dhhfjsjfjejd.

#dmc headcanons #anonymous #replies #headcanons #dante #vergil #dante and vergil #sons of sparda #dmc dante #dante sparda #dmc vergil #vergil sparda #dante x reader #dante x oc #vergil x oc #vergil x reader #long post

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sonicfanj · 4 years

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A little while back I made a comment in regard to Sonic’s character not being understood and pointed out that he has the potential to be a “selfish hero”. Not surprisingly I was asked about what I meant so I’m going to tray and explain.

Before beginning though, I should note that I view Sonic as an adventurer first, and not a hero like most of his fans do. This creates completely different expectations out of his character and results in me seeing things very differently from others. For example, I disagree with the notion that Sonic lives to stop Eggman. To me, it’s simply something that happens and we see so much of it because those are the stories of his adventures that we are shown most commonly (I think Eggman has only missed one game that Sonic has been in so that kind of says something).

So, for my explanation I am going to try to stick to as few examples as possible, but I get a little long winded so apologies in advance.

To begin, let’s look at Sonic’s motivation to be a hero. Well, simply put he has none. That may seem a little short-sighted, especially in light of Sonic’s heroics, but the thing is, Sonic does not present himself as wanting to be a hero. If you ask Yuji Naka, Sonic’s favorite thing to do is run, and his running is spoiled if he doesn’t get a full eight hours of sleep. If you consider this Sonic’s constant lazing around makes sense as he’s trying to put himself in a mood to enjoy what he loves best. But for as hard as it seems for Sonic to get a good night’s sleep, which supposedly also makes him irritable, he still loves to adventure. When describing Amy’s character Hoshino has stated that Sonic’s mind is always on the next adventure or challenge. This is important as it tells us that Sonic is not thinking about who to help next. He is thinking about himself. In other words, he is being selfish, or he adventures to enjoy himself and his running, not to help people like most of his fans believe.

Naturally this raises the question of why does Sonic help people. That is a very easy question to answer, but it also reflects a bit on Sonic’s nature and his selfishness some more. Out of the gate, we are told that Sonic has a strong sense of judgement and a big heart. And we know how compassionate Sonic is. In case anyone has forgotten, though he bashed the poor guy in the brain a few times over, Sonic calmed a raging God of Destruction and desired to console it so it could live in peace. It takes a big heart to do that and Sonic has it. But he is also said to have a short temper (though it is rarely demonstrated) and that he can’t stand injustice and dislikes tears. At this point I would hope that a clearer picture of Sonic’s selfishness as a hero is starting to become clear, but as I’m explaining my viewpoint I’ll continue.

Making what will feel like a sudden jump, Sonic helps people on his adventures because seeing or knowing that people are in trouble ruins his adventure for him. The moment he knows people are in trouble he can’t enjoy himself no matter how much sleep he got. His big heart and distaste for injustice spur him into action. He’s acting on his own emotions to bring himself back peace of mind. This is a horribly selfish thing to do, but we see him do it quite a fair bit, sometimes even putting himself before those he is aiming to help. Obviously, I need some examples to back these claims up, so I’ll go ahead and get started with Sonic CD.

Now, a lot of people do not know this, but Sonic did not go to Little Planet to save it. It kind of happens as it stands due again to Sonic’s short temper and reaction to things he dislikes and can’t stand. The whole reason he actually goes if I remember correctly is that he already knew the legends of it and wanted to both see it and see if he could actually time travel using his speed. When he arrived Eggman being there was a total shock to him, and seeing what the good doctor had wrought spurred him into action. In other words, he was there for himself, and saves Little Planet only because his moral compass and own feelings happen to align with what appears to be heroic. But roughly, Eggman ruined his plans and Sonic responded in kind. It’s almost petty his actions at Little Planet if not for how it is painted due to Eggman being the rather destructive villain. But CD is far from the only example.

In Sonic Adventure he gets involved because he is involved by Tails and Eggman. Stopping Chaos 0 is a matter of his evening run being ruined by the clash between Chaos and the Cops. He can’t leave the cops to be slaughtered and jumps in restoring his peace of mind. A selfish action. It isn’t much better with Tails either. With his peace of mind restored we next join Sonic chilling at the pool until Tails appears and ruins his nap. Though not Tails’ intentions, Sonic’s shrug tells us a great deal about how he feels about the situation before going off to make sure the fox is alright. If Tails came first he would not have delayed or even shrugged. He simply would have taken action. He also is later on disparaging of Knuckles, dismissive of Amy when she is trying to ask for help until he actually sees the danger, and gets wrapped up in the thrill of chasing Eggman rather than making sure Tails and Amy get away alright. Most of the game he puts himself first and displays irritation when he is needed to be heroic. It doesn’t really paint him as a hero. He isn’t much better in Sonic Adventure 2 either where he really drives home his preference for doing things his way. Then in Sonic Heroes he only gets involved because it seems like fun. Despite the danger, Sonic puts himself first. It isn’t until Shadow where Sonic is really painted as heroic straight up, but that game takes place through Shadow POV, and in relation to himself Shadow does see Sonic as rather heroic.

In 06 though Sonic goes right back to his selfishness. Yet another seemingly lost detail, even though it is repeated at the end of the game, Sonic goes to Soleanna to see the Sun Festival. It is literally his only reason for being there. If not for Eggman arriving he would have never interacted with Elise and would have been gone the next day. Yet Eggman attacks and Sonic gets involved. And seeing the mess that Elise is Sonic can’t have any peace of mind until she has some and shares a lot of his philosophies with her until she finally stops being mopey and has the strength and resolve to do what she needs to. Then, sure enough, even with the subtle hints that Sonic remembers what happened, he heads right on out once he knows everything is fine, including Elise. He made himself a big part of her life and then leaves because that is who he is and he can enjoy his running again knowing that everything is resolved.

When we get to Unleashed, we see a slightly different side to Sonic’s selfishness as he puts himself before his charge of the game; Chip. When Sonic meets Chip he blames himself for the latter’s memory loss and offers to help him restore it. Yet when he can’t resolve it and is informed of the larger mess at hand by Tails he heads right off to solve the problem. Now yes, he brings Chip along, but he has no basis on which to base Chip regaining his memories in his company. Yet he gladly exposes him to danger while thrill riding on his own adventure, where Chips memory coming back becomes insignificant to him. Chip simply becomes a friend on the adventure and Sonic mostly enjoys himself. Again he is being selfish.

Like 06 before it, Black Knight is a game where Sonic is heavily doing things his own way and for his own enjoyment. Most of that breaks later on when facing Merlina, a friend he has to save as much as her world, and of course the Knight Trials. The Knight Trials are one of the more interesting examples of Sonic’s selfish heroism as he has been tasked with saving the world but will not refuse the child in need. Worse, the Lady of Lake knew Sonic’s abilities when she put the time limit on him and the trials which would assure that Sonic would fail should he deviate at all. But Sonic has a big heart, and he hates tears, and here is this child crying due to the dragon. There is no way Sonic can have the peace of mind to focus on his quest to save the world while this child suffers and chooses the child over the world. Kind of funny that Amy gets chewed out by the fandom for this but Sonic clears his Knight Trials with flying colors for the same thing. But I digress. While it worked out for Sonic here, it could have been disastrous, but in his selfishness, he prioritized his feelings and went against what was requested of him. I may sound heartless here, but when faced with the choice of saving the few or the many most “heroes” seek a way to accomplish both, but Sonic chooses to satisfy his feelings instead. It is a selfish action on his part regardless of the outcome.

Beyond the games though you can also find Sonic being selfish in the OVA where talking him into going to Eggmanland is to stop Tails from worrying. He has no desire to go and outright refuses. It is only when someone he cares about is expressing genuine concern that Sonic is prompted to act. Even then he is visibly irritated by the whole affair the entire time. He had to go against what he desired to do, and it frankly agitates him, which implies a very selfish nature. When he does agree, it is to address something which does bother him, which is anything but heroic.

So, I’ll admit that some of my readings may seem excessively extrapolative, but as I addressed at the beginning of this explanation, I look at Sonic in a different light than most and this paints my view of his character. That Sonic’s selfishness is never really called into question tells me that most people at SEGA also don’t understand it, or as Sonic is supposed to represent everything cool about SEGA it highlighting a negative trait would be seen as unfavorable to say the least. Regardless, Sonic’s selfishness slips in and paints the character in a very unique light, but if you don’t fall for the trap of him being a hero but rather an adventurer who lives for himself first, than it starts to not be a surprise. Or at least, that’s my view on it.

#my thoughts #my opinion #sonic the hedgehog #character analysis

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chasingshhadows · 5 years

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on michael & maria

Yup, Imma talk about it.

I’m unfortunately well aware of the ~discourse~ on this particular topic, but I have Opinions and Feelings so I’m gonna share them. In this post, I’m gonna follow their relationship from the beginning of the show through episode 1.11 (Champagne Supernova). (The events of 1.13 are a topic that I’ll be addressing separately and a bit more in-depth.)

I am in what appears to be a minority of Malex Roswell fans that thinks the show did a really great job of setting up and seeing through the relationship with Michael and Maria, both in the ways it became physical and the ways it became emotional.

Before I begin, I want to emphasize something about this relationship that seems to bother a lot of people or maybe just go unnoticed: Much of the development between these two, while absolutely present, is not overt and oft times isn’t even on-screen. I get why and how this bothers people because it’s understandable to want to see character development on-screen and not have to infer it from context or subtext, or have to rely on people like me to do the work of going through the season and finding it. Plus, that means it likely falls through the cracks for most casual viewers who don’t take the time to process and analyze the meanings behind what they’re seeing. I get that, and understand that it’s frustrating.

That said, I’m here to play with everything the show has given us, and that includes the subtleties of the Michael & Maria dynamic. I’m a master extrapolator ok.

And just a ~warning~ to the shippers reading this: This post is about Michael & Maria and their relationship and how it builds and grows. This is not an extended diss post on Maria or Miluca, so if that’s what you’re looking for, this post is not for you. That said, I would be remiss in not acknowledging to any Miluca fans reading this that I am a hardcore Malex shipper and can’t guarantee that my bias in that way doesn’t leak through. Just - you’ve been warned.

Also to clarify - when I use the word “relationship,” I do not mean Relationship like, couple. I mean, any two people that interact with each other have a relationship with each other.

TL;DR: Michael and Maria were and are far closer as friends than most people seem to believe before they became involved. The journey of them hooking up, catching feelings, and coming together is marked by progressively stronger signs of affection and attraction. The development is there, if you care to look for it.

And now that my thesis is clear, let me show my work.

Anyway. Let’s start at the beginning.

We learn right as Michael is introduced that he spends a lot of time at the Wild Pony, and that getting arrested for getting drunk and getting into fights there is a common occurrence for him. As Maria runs this bar, this means the two of them spend a lot of time together, likely at odds considering she’s probably the one calling the cops.

The first interaction they have as characters isn’t an interaction at all, and seems to contradict the last assumption, at least in one way. Because Maria sees Alex looking at Guerin and the first thing she says about it?

She acknowledges he’s “rifraff” but then immediately says she thinks he’s hot. And then at Alex’s dubious look, she tries to justify. Which means that’s something she’s noticed, and the “sex in a truck” is something she’s thought about. And she and Alex have an easy enough relationship even after a decade spent mostly apart that she feels comfortable bringing that up. She’s gossiping about cute boys with her long lost best friend and Guerin is the cute boy on her mind right now.

This, my friends, is what we in the biz like to call foreshadowing.

Now, something that is entirely not stated but is at least tangentially hinted at: Michael is a punchy drunk that intentionally picks fights at the Wild Pony. Now, who do we know who appears to also spend a lot of time at the Wild Pony and are also walking “Hit Me” signs? That’s right, Racist Wyatt & Racist Hank. I’m not saying it happens every night or even every week, but I have to imagine at least a few times over the years, Michael decided to take out his dramatic cowboy angst on the two racist assholes spouting off in the corner. And regardless of her distaste for the violence and her annoyance at needing to call the cops again, I have to imagine that Maria at least noticed that Michael is throwing punches for the right reasons sometimes. (and again, none of this is explicitly stated, but all of the pieces are laid out and it doesn’t take a casual viewer to put them together).

We first see them actually interact at the bar during the blackout and it is hella flirtatious; they’re both smirking, leaning forward, teasing. It’s playful.

More than that though, it speaks to a deeply ingrained familiarity, friendliness, and banter. Michael swipes a bottle from behind the bar - an expensive bottle, apparently - as if that’s just a normal thing for him to do. And Maria doesn’t even try to stop him - sure, she Hey!’s him, but her only objection is, “that’s a health code violation” as she goes about cleaning up the bar and collecting glasses.

Again, I know this is subtle, but it says so much about their relationship before this moment. That Maria lets him grab the bottle. That he hears that he’s caught and just…. continues opening the bottle while making a teasing comment about her power-outage decorations. That she just watches as he takes a drink straight from the bottle. The soft, teasing “Didn’t I ban you for life?”

This isn’t behavior she would allow from just any customer and especially not one who we’re led to believe is a Problem Customer. And their conversation about his tab and such indicates they aren’t like, best friends or anything, but they’re on familiar enough territory that they can joke and tease and steal liquor like it’s habit, like it’s just how they are.

And remember - they both grew up in this town. They’ve probably known each since they were 11 (when Michael was sent back to Roswell) but definitely knew each other in high school. I doubt they ever hung out or even really interacted all that much but they have that awkward “I know too much about you because we’ve been sharing space for 15 years” thing going on.

And now Maria has watched him make a valiant attempt to drink himself to death for half a dozen years and bury his sorrows in anyone that’ll have him. She’s smart, she’s learned her lesson with Chad, she doesn’t just want to be another notch in Guerin’s bedpost.

But, he’s cute and he’s safe, so she flirts.

I mean look at this:

Like fuck, she’s practically purring.

Michael is clearly on board with that mood. This is sexy, this is him fully ready to hear exactly what he can do for Maria, this is his mind in the gutter.

He makes a joke - in a super sultry voice, mind you - about being her least favorite customer, to which she laughs while passing him glasses for the tequila (yes, it’s mezcal, I know) he stole.

This is all very friendly, y’all. And that doesn’t mean they’re the braid-each-other’s-hair, tell-me-all-your-deepest-secrets type of friends, but they are friends. Not best friends, but casual friends. Almost a coworkerly-type of teasing affection. They’re two people wholly comfortable with the other, they’re fond of each other. They tease each other but there’s never any bite - it’s playful and fun and easy. They sit on opposite sides of that bar at least several times a week and yeah, Maria has to call the cops when shit gets rowdy, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t appreciate Guerin’s personality and presence, or that he doesn’t enjoy the teasing banter with the hottie behind the bar that he knows he has no chance with.

From there, Isobel steals the floor, and Maria is annoyed and not taking shit. She makes a crack about Michael’s drinking, and Isobel makes her move.

And then Maria sees something I’m sure she’s seen before when he’s with Isobel but is still at odds with the Guerin in her mind - she sees Michael being soft, tender, and concerned.

And this prompts Maria, for what I believe is the only time in the first season, to call him Michael.

Jump to the day when both Isobel and Mimi go into institutions. Maria has reached her limit. She’s strung out, she’s had to fall back on her last resort because nothing else has worked and she’s feeling like a failure; she’s feeling lost because her mom has been her rock her entire life. And Michael is actually in a similar place. He’s been trying to protect Isobel, his own rock, from herself for so long, he’s let that destroy himself, his hope, his future, and now she’s put herself in the hands of people he vehemently distrusts because he failed.

So, they’re both here to drown their sorrows at the bottom of a bottle. And again, let’s talk about the fact that Michael gets an entirely different treatment than any other customer that might walk through that door. Because what she sees in that mirror? It’s a kindred spirit. It’s a broken man who’s been crumbling on a stool in her bar for years and who looks just like she feels: like he’s just a step away from shattering.

And this is also Michael Guerin, with whom she shares an easy camaraderie, who she knows can be soft. So, she lets him stay.

One drink. No talking.

She passes him the bottle and he sighs in relief because Maria is giving him exactly what he needs right now. To not be alone with his thoughts. To lose himself a little bit in a haze, to let the alcohol blur the self-hatred swirling in his mind.

And Maria, Maria doesn’t wanna crack. She doesn’t want to fall apart, because she can’t, because it’s her job to hold it together - for her mom, for her friends, for this town. She’s supposed to be the fun, happy friend, the bartender, the good time.

She’s not allowed to break.

But she knows if she opens her mouth, she will. So when Guerin starts to thank her, she shuts him right down.

Notice that she calls him Guer? Not Guerin. Not even Michael. But Guer. That’s soft, that’s familiar. That’s a nickname, and it rolls off her tongue like that’s normal. Like she’s used it before.

It’s these things, y’all, the little things that truly show us the depth of this relationship. I’ve seen said more times than I can count that Michael and Maria’s connection, their friendship, him “knowing her”, her feelings - that they all came out of nowhere. That these two went 10 years without liking each other or being attracted to each other and ~one day~ it all just changed. And that’s just not true. This thing between them, it’s been there, simmering, slowly building. The signs are there if you know what you’re looking for, if you know what it looks like before two people that know each other fall into bed, before they catch feelings.

And y’all, these two? Are a veritable construction zone of signs.

What happens next is pivotal to this relationship. Because Maria was right, opening her mouth was a catalyst and she starts to crack, and then loses it completely.

And this, this is new for Michael. Maria never cracks, never cries. She’s a firecracker and a half, fierce and strong, she commands the room, and never shows weakness. It takes him a moment to catch up to what he’s seeing and then-

This is so soft. He lets out a comforting “hey” as he wraps his arm around her shoulder and pulls her close, holds her tight. Tries to give her the stability she’s clearly lacking, lets her lean on him for support.

He’s there for her. He doesn’t ask questions. He doesn’t try to tell her it’s ok. Doesn’t cross any boundaries. He’s just there, just present, and lets her take what she needs from him in that moment.

This, again, proves the depth of their bond. Their friendship. Maria wouldn’t let any deadbeat from the bar touch her like that, especially not in a moment of weakness. And Michael wouldn’t offer unconditional comfort to anyone either - he’s not cruel by any means, but few people rank high enough to deserve his kindness. But here, Maria not only lets Michael hold her, she leans in, grabs at his jacket, settles in close.

She trusts him, and he cares for her.

And you can see even as he holds her, he’s still confused. He’s still not entirely sure what’s happening, but he pulls her closer anyway. Because she needs it.

This a turning point in their relationship. This is the moment they go from banter friends to comfort friends. The moment their friendship deepens from something fun to something warm. Something real.

A few weeks later, they’ve both come off their respective cliffs. Maria has come to him for help. And as we learn at the end of the episode, there’s an emotional attachment to her request. This sign is special, this sign specifically is important to her - and she’s trusting Guerin to fix it.

Now we know that “no once can fix a car as fast as” Michael, and that Isobel, at least, has a habit of calling him to fix things for her, but what this tells us is that Michael also likely has a reputation around town as a fixer, as a handy man. Enough, at least, for Maria to know Michael can fix this. And between his reputation and her experiences with him, she knows him to be dependable and reliable enough to do this for her.

They’ve fallen back into their banter because it’s easy and it’s not heavy. Because they’re still Maria and Guerin even after a moment of tenderness. Because this is natural to them.

Now, Michael says something that apparently confuses people. Because Max says, “Dude, tell me you’re not sleeping with Maria,” and Michael immediately shoots back with, “Never!” And to some, I suppose, this feels incongruous with his behavior in the next episode. And all I really have to say to that is if I truly “never” slept with any of the people I’ve said I would “never” sleep with, my List would be like…. half as long.

Anyway, Michael brings the sign to the bar later that same day. Which is significant because - remember what else is going on that day. Isobel nearly died. He’s been running all over town with Liz and worrying about losing his sister - the single most important person in his life - and still, he made time to fix Maria’s sign.

He and Max left the junkyard right after Maria dropped it off, and we saw him at the hospital, then chasing down Liz, then taking Liz to his bunker, then to the cave, then he ran back to get Isobel from the hospital.

Which means after Isobel went into the pod, Michael went back to the junkyard to fix Maria’s sign. Just as much because she needed it as because he needed it. He needed to do it, needed to not fail someone he cared about that day. Needed to have something to show to himself that he could fix things, to prove to himself he could fix Isobel.

And when he drops it off, Maria notes how fast it was, having no idea just how fast because she doesn’t know everything that happened that day. He reiterates that he could have made her a new sign, but what he means is that he wants her to know that he would have, for her. Max once said that Michael has never done anything for anyone, while we all know that that line was a flaming pile of bullshit, it’s true that Michael isn’t someone to offer his help to just anyone; he’s picky about the people deserving of his effort and he’s letting Maria know she’s one of them.

And she softens. She opens up. Explains the real reason she needs this sign. Let’s Michael see a glimpse of something she hid from her own best friend.

It gets heavy for a moment, which is a territory they’re still figuring out how to navigate. Maria “hmms” at Michael’s “beacon” comment and he aptly puts together that that’s all she wants to say on the matter. He redirects them into more familiar territory with a teasing joke to break the tension and Maria follows him there with a, “Jerk” and a poorly disguised smirk.

It’s comfortable. Easy.

Six weeks pass before we see them together again, though it’s certainly not the first time they’ve interacted, judging by the fact that Michael has racked up another bar tab.

Maria greets him coolly - whether that’s because of her mood re: her mother, or because Alex is there and Alex has already expressed discomfort at being around Guerin (see: human trio reunion scene) is unclear, but she does greet him. Even if she’s a bit prickly, he still warrants her attention just by walking in the door.

And this may be some of my own projection, but it also speaks a little to me of Maria starting to catch on - subconsciously, at least - that she might have feelings for Michael. After my own experiences with the Chads of the world, I tend to react defensively around people I start to fall for, including being actively cool around them. It’s not pulling pigtails, not quite, but more I’m-terrified-of-you-finding-out-I-have-feelings-and-rejecting-me-so-I’ll-be-extra-unfriendly-so-you-think-I-don’t-like-you.

Michael is flirting - stung, from Alex’s rejection, and trying to get lost in a distraction - but Maria lets it slide right off her.

When we see them again in Texas, it’s awkward, but not because of them. Max and Liz are seeing each other for what appears to be the first time since her declaration that they are not meant to be, after having promised to save the life of the woman who killed her sister because she can’t stand to see Max hurt. So. It’s awkward.

Michael recognizes this immediately - having spent significant time with Liz who I’m sure pointedly refused to talk about Max, and at least some time around Max even before the 4+ hour drive in which he was fully back on his broody bullshit - so he tries to cut the tension by teasing flirtily with Maria. Because that’s a thing he can do. Something that’s natural and fun for them.

Maria teases right back, likely having seen at least some of Liz’s side of this, and makes her subtle exit, knowing full well Michael would join her and leave the two lovebirds to their awkward hello.

Note that when Michael goes into the tent to have his hand healed, he goes in with Maria. Not Max, whose idea it was. But his friend, Maria. Which means they spent the long wait in that line together. She clearly needs proof - or disproof - of Arizona’s powers as much as Max, but we all know what Michael’s hand means to him, and that he was willing to have Maria there while discussing it, potentially having it healed says, again, so much about their friendship.

Arizona talks about Michael reopening the wound in his mind and he looks to Maria for reassurance. And Maria gives that to him, freely and warmly. Organically. And you can see how much that little act helps him, that he’s able to continue forward knowing she’s there.

And when Arizona essentially blows them off, Maria - who is here, remember, to find a way to heal her own ailing mother - offers Michael the comforting shoulder rub, the defensive “Come on [let’s get out of here]”.

When Maria is upset, following Arizona’s reveal as a fraud, it’s Michael, not Liz, her best friend, that follows her. For all that Michael wanted to go in guns blazing and confront her before, he’s ready to walk away when he sees that Maria is upset.

And no, Michael is not the arbiter of friendship, but he’s pretty sure it has something to do with supporting someone when they’re upset. He doesn’t know, as Liz does, that Maria does not need that, so this is his way of trying. Maria is important enough for Michael to try.

And thus gets us to my favorite scene of the Michael/Maria saga.

She says with a teasing smile on her face. She says with a fond glance at Guerin.

And his wink says he knows and he’s playing along.

When she gets up, Michael is concerned. Asking Liz if she’s going to follow her. “Don’t you think she needs a girlfriend or whatever?” Because Michael wants to make sure Maria is being taken care of.

And then.

I just. Cannot get over. This look. This is awe, this is wonder, this is heat. This is Michael for the first time seeing Maria, seeing just how strong and fierce and powerful and beautiful she really is. This is The Moment that Michael stops thinking of Maria as a fun, flirty friend, and starts seeing her as something more. As someone he might be able to really fall for. As someone who maybe, just might, be able to fill the void left behind by Alex.

And so he just stares. He cannot take his eyes off from her y’all. The whole rest of this scene is Michael just fixated on the marvel that is Maria DeLuca. He’s watching her the entire time Liz asks Max to dance. Watching her sing upon that stage. Hell, Liz has to grab his face to get him to look away and still his eyes find her again.

And Maria, for all her teasing and banter, is the one to make the first move. She extends her hand to Michael, beckons him forward and:

Imma just let that speak for itself.

She doesn’t just do it once those, she reaches for him again, just gently touching him, making contact. And it’s not just comforting contact like Michael did when she cried, or when Maria touched him in the tent. It’s not even really friendly.

No, it’s decidedly sensual. Sexy. She’s touching him in ways that are meant to illicit a reaction.

And it’s a reaction she gets, when Michael follows her from the bar.

Look at that smile. She’s teasing him, but you can see she’s happy that he’s chosen to be there, out there, with her. This is the face of a woman who’s just drunk and high enough to forget her reasons to stay away, and is just letting herself be giddy that the person she likes is here with her. She’s not thinking about her worry of being another one of Michael’s one night stands, not thinking about not letting herself get attached for fear of being hurt (spoiler alert: she was already attached).

That’s the thing, with humans. We’re really really good at lying to ourselves when we’re afraid. We’re experts at denying the existence of something that scares us, and convincing ourselves that we’re safe. Maria has convinced herself she feels nothing for Michael because admitting those feelings, even to herself, when she feels certain he doesn’t feel the same way, would be devastating. So she refuses to acknowledge it, pretends it’s not even there.

And that’s why we see such a drastic change in her behavior from night to morning. Why she was all smiles and wiles and flirtation when she was drunk, high, and looking for a distraction, but was cold and in full denial mode when she was sober and facing down the reality of the door she’d opened. Her subconscious is trying to preemptively protect her from the pain and she’s projecting her anger at herself onto Michael.

Exacerbated, I’m sure, by the fact that by the time they actually kissed, and slept together, neither of them were that drunk. We see them wander off together with a joint before Max and Liz leave the bar, and we don’t see them together again until after Liz and Max have found a hotel, gotten into bed, each tossed and turned long enough to get back out of bed, get dressed, head out to the park and talk, and then go back to bed. So I’d say it’s been at least a couple hours since their last drinks that things heat up.

So Maria doesn’t even have the excuse for herself that she was wasted because she wasn’t. Neither of them were. She let herself give into her feelings and attraction in a moment of weakness and the only one she’ll have to blame when it bites her in the ass is herself.

Even if Maria is refusing to allow herself to believe she has feelings, there is still a gut feeling that what she did was a mistake, was going to get her hurt. The mind can be interesting in that way, warning you of danger without allowing you to see what that danger is.

Michael is in a different place here. He’s upset, but in an entirely different and far more silent way than Maria. Alex broke his heart, again, just yesterday. He had to watch Alex walk away from him and for the first time, it truly felt final. Alex said it was over, full stop. I don’t think Michael had ever before thought about moving on from Alex, not really. He was always just waiting.

“Where I stand, nothing’s changed.”

But now Alex walked away and it looks like this time, he really isn’t coming back. And for the first time Mchael has to consider what his life might look like without Alex in it, and suddenly here Maria is, being the actual walking definition of charm and grace. She’s someone he knows, whom he knows to be good. She’s gorgeous and kind and beautiful and fierce. And he’s seeing for the first time just how strong she is, how courageous.

He’s mesmerized.

And he’s paying attention. To all of Maria’s little touches and smiles. To the way she seems to want exactly what he wants. Which is why he’s so unaffected by her protests and denials the next morning. Because this is Maria, his friend. He teases and pokes fun because they’re friends and he can. And because, as everyone in Roswell knows, Michael is an expert at navigating the awkward morning after, so he eases her panic about people finding out, and then teases some more.

Michael’s in a great mood. The sun is shining, there’s a gorgeous woman lying next to him, and maybe for the first time that he can remember, he’s not thinking about Alex. Or Isobel. Or anything that hurts.

That doesn’t last though. Alex shows up, reignites every emotion Michael has ever felt for him, and leaves Michael more certain than ever that he’ll never get to have Alex the way he wants him. (I have another meta on this coming, I promise). And so he’s hurt and alone again.

And he has Maria’s necklace.

So he decides to give it his best shot. He brings her the necklace, laying on a casual desire. Keeping it cool while still making clear what he wants.

And I’ve already talked about what happened with Maria and Alex between the ride home and Michael showing up, but the important take-aways here are:

Maria did not truly accept her feelings for Michael until she heard herself lie about them to Alex

Maria does not know Alex and Michael’s history beyond “they kissed once as teenagers” and “Alex still loves him”

Maria never wants to see that look of pain on Alex’s face again

And Alex knowing about them sleeping together also tells Maria that Michael, within hours of promising not to do so, told him. So she’s understandably pissy about that.

She cuts right to the chase when Michael starts to flirt.

And Michael’s face is… wounded.

Because he came to Maria to forget about Alex. He came to Maria because he likes her, and because he wanted to see if that spark he felt could light a fire, could turn into something real. He’s exploring, for the first time, the potential of really falling for someone who isn’t Alex.

And that’s what it is, at this point: potential.

But Maria says no, so he does with Maria the exact same thing he did when rejected by Alex - he deflects. Pretends he doesn’t know what she’s talking about. “Why do you keep saying it can’t happen again, I got it the first time. That’s not why I’m here at all!” (narrator voice: it was, in fact, exactly why he was there).

And both of their faces when Michael walks away tell us this isn’t want they want.

This scene is a little bit devastating. Seeing Maria refuse herself something she wants. Seeing Michael once again turned away due to something outside his control.

But he takes the hint and leaves. He’d made an attempt and was shut down, and he wasn’t going to push it.

It appears they don’t see each other again until the morning of the Gala, when Maria straight up pretends she doesn’t see him.

And Michael calls her on it, because it’s bullshit and he knows it. They were friends before they slept together and he’ll be damned if he’s gonna let that get in the way of what appears to be his only human connection aside from Alex.

Maybe it’s me, but this line was delivered with exactly the right amounts of relief and disappointment. Relief that she won’t have to endure seeing Michael in a tux. Disappointment that she won’t get to see Michael in a tux. It’s a Mood.

Michael makes a joke because that’s what they do. Maria said no, but he wants to ease them back into their friendly camaraderie. He doesn’t want to lose his friendship with Maria.

But Maria can’t do what she and Michael do. Because what she and Michael do is why she fell for him. So she can’t let them go back to being banter friends across the bar, not yet anyway. She needs time and she needs space so she can get over him.

Not to mention: Maria doesn’t know. Period. Maria doesn’t know Michael’s feelings for her might be genuine. Maria doesn’t know that Alex and Michael’s history is fraught and traumatic and painful. Maria doesn’t know that Michael and Alex were seeing each other over the summer. Maria doesn’t know that their history doesn’t start and end with that kiss in the museum. She doesn’t know that Michael still has feelings for Alex. And while Maria knows Alex is in love with Michael, she doesn’t know he’s made any effort to show that to Michael.

And she doesn’t want to hurt Alex. He’s always been there for her and she wants to protect him. To protect herself.

So she makes a jab about the museum - it was intentional insofar as she meant to drive the wedge of Alex further between them, but again, she does not know what else happened after Michael kissed Alex at the museum. She isn’t trying to hurt Michael here, she’s trying to build a wall.

When Michael says “It’s over. It’s been over,” she has no reason not to believe him.

And Michael isn’t saying that because he’s trying to come on to her again. He’s saying that because he can see that Maria feels guilty and he’s trying to assuage that. “You didn’t do anything wrong.”

The look Maria gives Michael here. The glance to his lips. She is gone on this man already. She wants him. She wants to believe him. She wants to be allowed to give in to him.

But she’s not. So she throws up more spikes and walks away.

This moment makes a whole lot more sense if you remember that, as far as we know, Michael has only ever given even a single shit about two humans in his entire life: Alex and Maria. We know what Alex is and was to him, the narrative makes it absolutely clear that Michael has been in love with Alex for a decade and has essentially been idling, just like Max, for Alex to come back. He sees their love as cosmic.

And we know what Maria is to him. She’s his friend. Someone who gets him, at least the little stuff. The light stuff. His sense of humor, his penchant for drowning his sorrows in substances, his compassion and his dependability.

Someone threatening that friendship? The one and only truly painless thing he’s ever found on this forsaken planet? Not a smart person.

Michael and Max make it to the Gala and that protective streak flares again. Because he was right. And Maria is innocent and now she’s vulnerable, and he’ll be damned if he’s gonna let anything happen to her.

This is him continuing to not push boundaries, even when she can’t hear him. She said they can’t continue whatever it was they started, but they were friends before that and he wants to go back to that. Go back to fun.

Not to mention that he is visibly worried in a way we have only seen him express before for Isobel and Alex.

He sits there, holding her, letting his presence be known as a comfort, stroking her hair.

So that when she wakes, she knows immediately that she is not alone. That she is safe and being looked after.

And at the first sign that she may not want him there? He immediately offers to leave, and not only leave, but find someone else she trusts to look after her so that she still won’t be alone.

“You gotta stop showing up for me like this, Guerin.” is what she says, but what she means is “you have to stop reminding me why I fell for you. Stop making it so hard for me to get over you just by being you.”

(And also just a reminder here that Maria is still under the influence of an inhibition-lowering drug. That means it makes her do and say things she would not normally allow herself to do/say. She’d never have admitted these feelings to Michael had she been sober, or under the influence of an intoxicant she’s used to, but this is not that. This is literally a date-rape drug and anyone who has anything shitty to say about Maria in this scene can Fite Me.)

And when Maria says that she never wants him to leave?

Riley put it best: “That is not the face of a man whose feelings have just been reciprocated. That is the face of a man whose life just got very complicated.”

His lips barely twitch towards a smile but he can’t even hold it. He knows he’s supposed to be happy, but he can’t feel it. He wanted to believe that he could want this, that his feelings for Maria could drown out the way he feels about Alex, but like with Maria not realizing her feelings until she heard herself lie, I don’t believe Michael truly recognized his lack of feelings until he heard Maria admit the depth of hers.

I think Michael absolutely, 100%, no doubt cares deeply for Maria. I believe he is unquestionably attracted to her. I think she makes him happy and feel light because she’s not bogged down in the trauma that marks his life, and because she, by her own admission, actively tries to be the Fun Friend.

And I think Michael wants to have feelings for Maria. Because he believes he can’t have Alex and continuing to dwell on that will only continue to hurt him. He wants to move on, and Maria is literally walking perfection. There is no reason Michael shouldn’t absolutely return every bit of her feelings and then some.

But he doesn’t. He can’t. His heart belongs to another.

Now we don’t see the end of the night for Michael and Maria, but we do know that he takes her home. How do we know this? Because there’s no way a man who emphatically threatened to explode anyone who came near her while she was drugged would let her go home alone. Not a chance in hell. I doubt they talked at all, but he made sure she made it home safely.

And that, as far as we know, is the last time that they see each other before the finale, before Michael shows up wrecked and broken and needing to feel something, anything, that doesn’t hurt.

I’ll be diving into his, Maria’s, and Alex’s headspaces, and then taking a look at the dynamic as a whole, but none of what happens in the finale makes any kind of sense if you don’t fully recognize everything that came before it. What lead to it. It was a perfect storm of emotion and heartbreak, and this is just one cloud.

#miluca #m&m #michael guerin #maria deluca #roswell new mexico #rnm meta #rnm #miluca meta #i just have a lot of feelings #on michael & maria #i've been working on this since i finished episode 9 #sooooooo here it finally is lolololol #michael guerin meta #maria deluca meta

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