#irredeemable villains are too sad!!!

[yall-hate-kids-tourney]

Loser Round 4: Damian Wayne (DC) vs. Jason Todd (DC)

A rematch? It's so funny how the bracket turned out this way.

Propaganda under the cut.

Damian Wayne (9-14):

Damian is a kid who was raised as an assassin and because of that when he first appears he has some really messed up ideas of how to prove himself to his father by being aggressive with the criminals they capture and attacking his brother. Because of this people act like he is the most evil character ever and refuse to give him any grace. They make him out to be this awful irredeemable monster who just wants to kill his brother and hurt people. If the fandom isn’t making his out to be The Worst(tm) then they are ignoring his existence all-together. He is a really interesting character who has done some not so great things but he’s grown and learned a lot through various character arcs (as much of an arc as a comic book character can have) and he deserves to be acknowledged for himself and not just as a villain so that people can woobify his brother.

——

HES JUST A LITTLE BABY GUY!!!!! Little baby man raised as an assassin and learning how to be a real person <3. But because he was kind of a dick and also a little stabby early-on, especially to the fandom's main "so sad uwu depressed baby" blorbo (and also he's not white), people treat him like he's satan incarnate

Jason Todd (~12):

Most of the Tumblr fandom likes this guy but if you step outside this website then wham so many people say he got what he deserved as a kid and Batman can't be cool if he's a dad so it's important for Batman to trash-talk his dead child constantly so we can all agree what a bad idea it was. Also wanna highlight that a lot of the records we have from fans at the time were clear they disliked Robin for BEING a child. Like a lot of the little dude characters in this tournament are treated too harshly for making an ugly choice and the fans aren't being understanding or sympathetic that the choice is made by a child character who is immature and not developed and strong enough to make a good choice and stuff. But THIS little dude was specifically hated FOR being a child. People wanted tough loner guy Batman not Batdad and his little buddy. The first Robin would drive back from college and guest star sometimes and be advertised as the Teen Wonder and people were like yeah okay but then Batman actually starts being a single parent for a child with needs and people were like UGH not the BOY Wonder. Today pretty much everywhere you see Batman fans saying Batman is better solo, no kid, it's not realistic to have a kid, a kid shouldn't be in the movies blah. Even if the comics they always find a way to send away the new kid so that Batman never has to parent. So all the Robins are being excluded from the narrative but I think this one is THE symbol of Batman fans hating a child character just for being a child.

-

Robin, Jason Todd, THE hated child character. In the 1980s, Batman comics had become increasingly dark and gritty. According to editor O'Neil himself, the courted audience wasn't kids but 19-40 year old men with disposable income. Batman's child sidekick, Robin, was offensively campy and childish. Fans called him wimpy, annoying, dumb, bratty, etc. Also people complained that Batman acting like an affectionate dad was unmanly and gay. Robin acts violent and emotional and people are like "ew he's so childish and emotional"—and then Batman literally acts just as murderously and emotionally within literally the same exact story and people are like "wow he's so dark and tortured". So in 1988 (after brutalizing Batgirl to get rid of her for being too bright and nice and kid-friendly), DC held a paid poll for fans to vote for Robin to live or die. O'Neil claims he heard a fan (a grown man with a dayjob as a lawyer) programmed a phone to spam kill votes. One fanguy claimed that he sold his Mercedes to buy kill votes (probably an exaggeration but still). By less than 1% margin, the vote decided to kill Robin in a spectacularly violent way. Anyway the 1989 Batman movie brought in a huge wave of new child comicbook fans who liked the new Robin (a very cool teenage high school Robin with a driver's license and a girlfriend), and DC started a separate Robin-less Batman series called Legends of the Dark Knight to make the anti-Robin writers and fans happy. But to this day, many fans agree it was a good idea to kill off the other Robin so that his foolish death reminds other characters to never be childish and stupid again. Bonus: the current Robin (usually a traumatized 10-year-old) has also been facing some pretty loud hatred for over 15 years.

[almacambiondaughterofsaleos]

You Know Now It Makes Sense Stolas’ Character Evolved Into What It Is

Seriously, when I found this tidbit it makes sense why Stolas evolved from being treated like an actual demon lord rather than the sad woobie he is now. I think she put some of herself in him because she tries to see herself as one of those not so bad elitists who have little care for the poor but are able to interact with them on some level. But yeah, with the fact that she comes from privilege it makes sense she’s having this tantrums because despite her being a sjw she really is someone who hasn’t had anyone say no to her and not to mention it makes sense now why celebrities are coming to her project because she’s getting her rich relatives to help her. 

This isn’t a case of a girl of humble origins rising through the industry this a case of nepotism and she can’t handle the fact that she isn’t being praised and isn’t okay with being said “no”. She has had everything handed to her and can’t handle the pressures that someone is pointing out her flaws. She has been coddled too long that it has caused to become such a brat. As a result, when the time comes for the big meltdown it will probably be when the big mess in story comes and everyone just gives up on her. But even then she still refuse to realize that she needs to stop acting like a primma dona and improve herself. Because someone who has been sheltered that long it’s hard to get out of your comfort zone. 

In it you see the same thing with Stolas, because he comes from a place of comfort and still is being treated like he hasn’t done anything wrong even though it negatively effects his daughter. While Stella can be written as irredeemable and abusive, I think trying too hard to make her one note made it more apparent it was just to make Stolas more sympathetic rather than make Stella any sort of compelling character. She’s just a tool to make Stolas be even more justified in finding love with Blitzo even though it’s toxic itself. If she had made him remain where he was in the pilot then we could see him more of a villainous figure rather than a poor sad boy whose actions are always excused. The same thing with Vivzie and her fanbase where everything is excused because she’s a queer woman and not thinking about how others are speaking out against her. They just see a vision of her that she wants to present just like Stolas when in reality both are just awful people trying to look for an excuse to be the victim. 

[bonefall]

I can't see how the writers still think Skystar's a good person. Like, twelve year old me liked him and thought he was interesting, but I was like twelve. And even I knew he was an irredeemable asshole after Moth Flight's Vision. If a twelve year old can figure this stuff out I have no idea what these grown ass writers were doing.

DOTC has a thesis, stated in The First Battle, that really explains everything.

"Fear and Greed" is just a fake-deep way to reinvent a Good and Evil dichotomy. Because Clear Sky's abuse comes from a place of fear, it means it's not malicious, unlike a "greedy" cat.

He can be "soothed," ergo, he's a fundamentally good person.

Post-First Battle, the books are focusing constantly on his feelings, how sad it makes him to not be trusted, how happy he is when people are on his side. All while he continues to screech at people who tell him what to do, manipulate and mistreat his son, and even still beats and mauls those who offend him.

But because it's "fear," that doesn't matter. That's a justification, an excuse. The writers don't seem to believe in good and bad actions as much as they do good and bad people. True 'evil' comes from a person who hurts others for the wrong reasons, like 'revenge' or malice.

It's abuse apologia. Plain and simple.

The truth is that abusers don't think of themselves as evil people, and everyone, even you and me, is capable of being toxic or abusive. Talk to those who have been abused and we'll tell you; we often stayed because we "saw the good," or even felt responsible for them. Abuse can be passed down through generations because the kids come to believe the way they were treated was normal and okay.

If you go through life thinking that abuse only comes from evil/greedy people, you won't see it when it happens right in front of you. Fundamental good and evil is childish. Abuse comes from fear all the time.

Abuse is about power and control. Fear of rejection, of losing someone, of pain, those are all very common motivators as the abuser tries to stop them from happening before they even begin. It doesn't MATTER that your abuser is in pain too, you NEVER "deserved" what they did in an attempt to break your legs so you wouldn't run.

But... we can all change. Even the worst of us. It's never too late to stop hurting others, move on to a better life, but some people never will. Skystar loves his power, and he keeps that power no matter how many times he misuses it.

He has no reason to change as long as his cruelty rewards him with status and authority.

But the writers are incapable of recognizing that, because for this entire arc, they were stuck in an absurd view of the world in terms of Fear and Greed. Abuse can be excused if he did it for the "right reason," and that makes him "fundamentally different" from the truly evil villains, Slash and One Eye.

Hopefully, it now makes more sense to you.

[celaenaeiln]

I always love how heros only kill if there really is no other options. Even then, their deeply disturbed or torn up about it. Killing is easy. But seeing a criminal as a person at the end of the day is much harder. It takes an unfathomable amount of strength to keep this going. It won't always work and it's not easy. But there's a difference between right and easy.

Oh me too!!

Anon you have no idea how much I’ve thought about this over the past five years and come to the same conclusion every time.

There are two reasons why I like that heroes only kill as an extreme necessity.

The first is what you said. It's extremely difficult to be able to control yourself in the face of repulsiveness. Some I do believe are irredeemable but many characters are not worth killing. Because there's a lot that goes into killing. It's not just about moral ethics for me, it's also about how that impacts society. I don't know if you've seen the show "The Boys", but it's about heroes who kill. Originally they kill criminals but at some point their anger and frustration bleeds over and they start killing innocents. The repercussions on society were massive. There was a significant loss of trust and hatred and fear going on. Ordinary people like the main character and the rebel side were dragged into a world and fighting that perpetuated fear and bloodshed until everything became irreversible. It's a terrifying world I would absolutely not want to live in. In the previously posted comic Batman says:

He's not saying this lightly. In a world where killing criminals is done and seen as common place by the people, what's stopping the people from following their hero's actions? Nothing is ever contained on the internet and nothing is ever done in moderation. It's like watching your favorite superhero blast a bad guy's head off on TV and turning around to seeing your mom blast your dad's head off with a gun over an argument about going to the movies. The violence is commonplace, after all. It takes an incredible amount of willpower, far more than anyone gives credit for, to look at someone who hurt you and walk away.

The canon version of this argument and why Bruce should never kill the Joker is proved in the comic, "The Batman Who Laughs." I was terrified for Damian when he encountered that universe.

The second reason I love the no-killing rule- and it's a little more twisted- is because I love self-control.

Not just as a person who tries to practice it in their life but there’s just something so exciting about a character who fights with control.

Having someone run free is super fun to read but having someone who never breaks the line, edge so dangerously close to it, but never kill? Oh the feeling is delicious. You're left pondering-what is it? What will it take? What will cause you to break?

Ironic. I know. But you can't tell me you were never curious about their limits.

Aside from that excitement, I love how the villains are reusable. They may be your worst enemy on a tuesday but on a thursday they're dragging your broken body out of a ditch to go fight the bad guy who got on their nerves.

It's like the idiom- better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Sometimes, no matter how horrible their actions were in the past, they're keeping a larger threat at bay. For example Blockbuster and Heartless. Bane, William Cobb, Lex Luthor, Freeze, Black Manta, and Sinestro in Forever Evil. The Riddler. And when Bruce was dead/lost in time the Joker was straight up like "damn bro I'm so sad I think I'm gonna turn good" which actually sort of saved all of Gotham from that bat cult that nearly killed them. Sort of. He bailed halfway but props to him for the first half.

Also the villains in the comics are terrible people but they're good characters. Like these characters are so well-developed. You'll hate them but you'll never fully hate them because they're funny and mean and deep down, you'll never admit it but they have a small teeny, tiny point.

A couple of my favorite villain scenes:

The Riddler (Batman #699)

Joker (Batman and Robin #22)

Joker

Victor Zsaz in his undies swearing revenge on another villain. Damian and Dick in the photo

Dick bashing up Slade in Damian's body

Damian, Harvey, and Dick

[fanarchoslashivist]

One of the things I really love about Pitch Black, aside from being just a fun, multilayered, and entertaining villain, is that what makes him so sympathetic is also what makes him irredeemable.

He thinks he's right! He fully believes, with his whole heart, that children should be raised in fear. He is the perfect metaphor for outdated harmful parenting in a children's movie. Kids should be raised with love and care! if you work too hard to give your kids material things, even with good intentions, you may miss out on actually spending time with them! Great lessons, with the villain being a sympathetic lonely man who is being forgotten by everyone, why? Because he thinks children should be raised in fear.

And he's so good at it. Other villains/antagonist parental figures in kids media like Mother Gothel (tangled) and Claude Frollo (hunchbac of notre dame) use the same tactics but they, unlike Pitch, are easily seen through by the audience because they lack that one thing Pitch has. Pitch CARES. Pitch is sad, he's tragic, he's lonely. It's not that you believe him, it's that you WANT to believe him. You don't want him to hurt, You feel guilty. You believe he is capable of being better, you want to give him the chance. He's that sad old man in the nursing home whose kids never visit him. You feel bad for him, you're supposed to, even though his loneliness is the result of his own actions.

Pitch's difference with Gothel and Frollo are not enough to save him, because unlike the antagonist parental figures that do get redemption like Ming Lee (turning red) and Alma Madrigal (encanto) is his refusal to change. His reaction to Jack's rejection is to flinch in pain, yes, then to threaten Jack's best friend, break his possessions, and physically assault him before dumping him down into a crevice of ice.

He manipulates, he picks at Jack's insecurities, tearing him down bit by bit with his words so Jack feels worthless, then sets him up for failure, to take the blame for Pitch's own actions. He lures him into a trap then throws him out to face the consequences, then after Jack has faced the backlash of the 'cruel world' he comes back in with sweet words of comfort and affirmation.

It's the same thing your parents use against you. They love you. They want what's best for you. They just want to keep you safe, keep you on the right path, keep you in line and obedient.

It's not FAIR that you won't let him hurt you, it's not FAIR that you want to be safe and loved, that you want to set boundaries, that you want to be treated with kindness and respect.

Then, once you get into the books you start to really peel back those layers into the why, he's a war veteran who believed in the goodness of others, in treating people with kindness and dignity, in giving grace and humanity to your enemies, and that reputation got his family killed. From his perspective, his lesson, is that the belief in goodness will get you and everyone you love DEAD. He is a perfect metaphor for the traumatized survivor trying to beat all the weakness out of the next generation, but what did that do? What did his crusade against the light do? His descent into his madness? His lashing out in his grief? It destroyed everything. He, the humanitarian who lost his family and became the mass murderer of the entire Golden Age.

But if you just let him tourment a few kids on this planet he's totally not going to repeat that process. Promise. Stop being mean to me. All of you are so mean to me. Just let me raise my kids my way. I have parental rights!

Pitch is so believable in his loneliness in the movie because he does absolutely think it is unjust and unfair that he is not allowed to abuse kids. The first steps to any redemption he would have needs to rest entirely on his understanding that how he treats children is Wrong. Its the same crisis that many parents whose kids grew up and moved away and cut ties with them face. But instead of owning up to their mistakes in how they raised their kids they lash out and place blame. It's the gay agenda. It's woke brainwashing. It's this soft weak coddling society that convinces everyone they are a victim. It's not - ever - because I was in the wrong.

[ladygwyndolin]

You're clearly a great fan of Murcielago's villain protagonists, but what are your opinions on the antagonists?

well you can't send me an ask like this an expect me not to rate each of them individually, but i assume you knew this. crafty, glasses! I'm gonna rate the primaries here but I'll rate the secondaries next. Only up to Silver Scent.

Arc 0: Unnamed Serial Killer

Cringe loser, no swag, no style, unmemorable, no standards. Died in an accident. 0/5.

Arc 1: Tasuku Iimura

Just kind of a big brute, somewhat sad backstory but doesn't really bring anything to the table. This arc isn't really about him though. 1/5.

Arc 2: Hyoue Satori

Total patsy. Basically irrelevant as his only real contribution was bankrolling a cooler, sexier villain. 1/5.

Arc 3: Takeru Asagi

We're starting to get somewhere. He's still fairly meh, but his MO and backstory are way more interesting than the previous villains and his genuine care for his daughter gives him a bit of heart. OFC, he pales in comparison to how amazing a character said daughter is, but I'll give him a point for trying. 2/5.

Arc 4: Gold Marie

LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOO!!!!!! I LOVE GOLD MARIE. Absolutely horrible and irredeemable monster, twisted in fun and unique ways, tragic backstory, gay, disgusting, and, well. Y'know. She's got. uh. well. Anyway, one of the best in the series, no question. 5/5.

Arc 5: The Rainy Day Killer

Hands down the most terrifying villain in the entire series and it's not even close. I get the creeps just looking at him. It takes a lot to be a monster in a world as monstrous as Murcielago's, but boy oh boy does he do it. Great backstory, too. Gonna give him a 4/5 just because of how SCARY he is.

Arc 6: Marie Misaka

Meh. This arc is more about Kuroko herself being the villain rather than this chick, so she barely gets any screentime and doesn't have much to offer. 2/5 cuz there's some implied gay shit at least.

Arc 7: Toukichirou Higaki

Mostly a vehicle for more interesting side characters. His fighting style is cool, but his ultimate goal of dying in battle doesn't have any real weight to it. Pretty forgettable. 2/5.

Arc 8: Shin Tatewaki

Boring villain from a boring arc. 1/5 cuz i think his scar looks cool.

Arc 9: Cobalt Conrad

A very solid mad scientist archetype. I think his relatively friendly and calm demeanor persisting throughout both arcs he's in is great and I like that he came back as a villain in the first place. His ultimately plan is pretty simple and I feel like more could be done with him, but given that we haven't seen the last of him I think there's a chance we'll get new stuff from him too. 4/5.

Arc 10: Kurono

YEAH BABY YEAH BABY LET'S GO!!!!!!!!! I LOVE KURONO!!!! Cool split personality ghost with probably the best fight in the entire series (due to the fact that Kuroko is hilarious throughout it) and sympathetic motivation make her extremely memorable. A lot of people rank Master Swordsman as their favorite arc, and while it's not my personal pick, scenes with Kurono make me understand exactly why so many people love it. 5/5.

Arc 11: Rose Marie

Best boy with one of the best arcs. I looooove TTDUP and how fucked up it is, and this weird conjoined cannibal queen is what makes it work. The second most unsettling villain after the rainy day killer as well. Easy 6/5, I would love if we got more villains like him in the future.

Arc 12: Comedy Writer

Easily the least threatening major villain and thus one of the least interesting. This is another arc where Kuroko eclipses the actual antagonist by a significant margin, so his only real noteworthy moment is when Kuroko kills the shit out of him. 1/5.

Arc 13: Hazuki Sendou

Gross. Loser. Doesn't deserve Zenpachi. Keep that in your pants, loser. 1/5.

Arc 14: Yuusuke Arima

A deeply tragic and sympathetic villain, and one who we get to know as a person far more than most other villains. Serial killer or not, I just felt really fucking bad for this guy. Not huge on his sudden double evil turn at the very end so I've gotta dock him a point for that, but I'm overall a fan. 3/5.

Arc 15: Mineko and Ayako

Honestly it was tough for me to decide which one of these two was the "main" villain so I ultimately decided to just go with both of them because hey, it's my list. My verdict is that they did literally nothing wrong and should not be held accountable for any crimes whatsoever. 5/5.

Hopefully that answers your question!

[look-how-they-massacred-them]

Jane Crocker

Submission reason:

OKAY SO BASICALLY in homestuck canon jane is the heiress to this big giant (evil) corporation. but over all she's fairly kind and does her best to be a good friend (albeit she's skeptical and bad at stating what she needs from people until she gets angry). then the homestuck epilogues just. DECIDED to make her irredeemable? and evil? and a xenophobic capitalist who's lowkey taking over the world? like... a big thing was her relation with the big bad (who literally STRANGLED HER, MIND CONTROLLED HER, and more). and then they just decided ""yeah she's basically that now""? like come on she doesn't deserve that.

Became a genocidal xenophobic dictator in the epilogues. The comic gives John a tearful reunion with her dad and she gets nothing

Anyone who read Homestuck^2 knows that she was uh. Made into a racist cheater in the sequel. So there could be another villain. She wasn't perfect in the og material but christ that's outright character assassination.

hi im the sane person that sent that super long jade harley submission. anyway before i start i need to point out that jane is one of my fave characters and i love her so in the original comic all i have to say about her is that she didnt get a finished arc which is sad . shes basically a super sheltered heiress to a baking empire and as a result she has a lot of pressures on her to act in a certain way and her arc was about like breaking free from that i guess. so like for example she was expected to be super fem and be a girlboss housewife because her evil alien grandma was trying to manipulate her into being the perfect heiress but once jane gets into the game shes like naw fuck that and becomes awesomely butch & wears a moustache. i dont have anything against the crockerteir part of her arc (in summary it was a part where she got mind controlled by her grandma and temporarily regressed to the star pf her arc but like ten times worse and also evil) cause i think its a necessary part of her arc and low points are important for conflict .

HOWEVER it kind of just… ended there. like arquius freed her from the mind control and then she flew off with jasprose and then her story just ended there with no further development which like sucked because it wouldve been a good point to like jump off of and give her an actual finished arc but it was sooooo rushed and skipped over which is a shame because i found her story to be really interesting and then it just ENDED right after the arcs low point instead of ending like a normal arc and having more progression after the low point. it sounds nitpicky but honestly if you read the comic jane and the other 3 of her friends get such abrupt ends to their stories it was like the author realised the webcomic was too long and just cut it short early. i forgive them for that though. there are a ton of characters in the comic and even though jsne was technically the protagonist for half of the comic I understand that the author was juggling like 100 different characters. HOWEVER this bad ending for jane left a door open… for the worst writing decision ive seen in my life… in the homestuck dubious canon sequels (‘fanfiction’ written by the a team of people including the comics original author, available on the homestuck.com site and therefore relevant to this conversation despite their dubiously canonical nature) JANE WAS ABSOLUTELY BUTCHERED IN THE SEQUELS!!! they completely stripped her of her of all of her character development that happened in the original story and they turned her into a villain. they made her into a human version of her evil alien grandma. this was ABSOLUTELY caused by the fact that her arc ended abruptly right after the crockertier mind control thing and also caused by the fact that people in the fandom didnt like her cause there was a scene where 2/3 of her friends didnt show up for her birthday so she got sad and yelled at her other friend and then immediately apologised and everyone thought she was evil for doing that😭 anyway so in hse&hs2 jane was turned into an evil xenophobic dictator that started a war against the trolls for some reason and also they made her wear pencil skirts which is so messed up cause she needs to wear trousers she butch… get her out of that.

the also took away her epic moustache :(. its just really sad because its such a stupid direction for her character to go in i dont get how they could just reverse her character like that out of the blue for no reason. oh wait yes i can get it… its cause shes a GIRL and the homestuck 2 writers hate women (refer to my jade harley submission) . half joking about that. jane was a great character and then in the sequel they made her evil and racist and turned her into a complete other character because they wanted conflict but they killed off the evil alien grandma lady in the original comic so they just took jane and made her into the evil alien grandma because people didnt like jane so they knew no one would notice how much they fucked her up.

UGH! worst part was that they made her straight in homestuck2 as if she wasnt a huge lesbian in the original like she literally called a crazy magical catgirl lesbian hot and then flew off into space with her and they hung out for the rest of the story before her arc got cut short and then they had to audacity to make her marry a dude in the sequel. fuck everything 😡😡😡SHES A LESBIAOOONNNN it’s literally gay erasure cause the writing team of the sequel didnt like her 💀💀💀😭😭😭AAAARUHHHH

*gestures at all of Homestuck 2*

Propaganda:

btw post-canon had no right making her that heterosexual. that woman is a lesbian and it needs to be said.

Oh! No. :)

jane is the best

[suffersinfandom]

gifset by seraph-novak

So there’s a critique of this scene (and Ed in season two as a whole) that I haven’t been able to shake. The post went into how the whole mermaid sequence was ruined by the rest of the season -- about how this beautiful scene was, put in the context of Ed’s behavior in the rest of season two, an ominous rebirth of a villain. The writer couldn’t see Ed as a protagonist finding the will to live; they saw a monster getting another chance to terrorize his victims.

I really hate that. I’ve already typed way too much about how I don’t think that Ed is abusive or that the Kraken Era was all that bad, so of course I disagree with any take that characterizes Ed as a monster. But do you know why this post stuck with me?

It made me unreasonably sad.

There’s a danger in over-identifying with characters (and I do think that a lot of the tension in OFMD fandom comes from over-identification), but it’s so easy for me to understand what Ed’s going through in the first three episodes of season two. I’ve been there. Judging by this post, many of us have been where Ed is. 

We’ve struggled to live while we’re drowning. We’ve been trapped and hopeless and desperate for a reason to keep going -- for someone to give us hope that things can be better. 

And we’ve also hurt people in our despair. 

When I was in my Kraken Era, I was a sick college student who’d been fighting depression since middle school. I’d just escaped a “friendship” with someone who (I can admit in retrospect) abused me mentally and emotionally, and I had no other friends because that person had effectively isolated me. I was alone and I was convinced that I was a fundamentally unlovable person who had no right to exist. 

I pushed the few people I had around me away. I isolated myself from my mother as much as I could while living in her house. I cut off communication with my online acquaintances (who would later become good friends) and didn’t speak to anyone at school. For a while, I was so focused on my pain and self hatred that I barely thought about other people. It was an intensely selfish and self-centered existence, and I hurt my mom and everyone who could’ve been a friend. When you're in that desperately hopeless, depressed mindset, you don't care about hurting people because your own pain is so all-consuming. If anything, you want to hurt others so they'll give up on you in the same way you've given up on yourself.

It’s different from what Ed did, of course, because he’s not me and I wasn’t a pirate captain with the lives of a crew in my hands. The harm I could cause was severely limited by my lack of power, but I still caused it. I was still trying to isolate and cut ties and push away anyone who could’ve helped me even when I desperately wanted help. I wasn’t a good person.

Watching Ed go through a self-destructive arc that’s immediately identifiable, deeply personal, and so well done was incredible, and seeing the show support him instead of demonizing his behavior? I have no words for the way I felt during season two’s run. 

OFMD makes Ed a sympathetic character who’s worth loving even when he’s at his lowest. It gives us a lead who fucks up when he’s in the depths of his despair and it doesn’t pity him or wave away his problems or make a monster out of him. It doesn’t even have his romantic interest save him! Instead, it lets Ed save himself when he realizes that there’s still hope and love out there. 

This show reminded me that we’re not monsters even if we’ve hurt people. It told me that recovery is possible, and so is forgiveness. It asked me to keep loving Ed through his entire arc, and in doing that, it forced me to love the parts of me that I’m still working on as well.

So I know that I shouldn’t be bothered by people who see season two Ed as an irredeemable monster who gets an undeserved second shot at life, y’know? But even though I’m a decade and a half out of my own Kraken Era, I’m still in a perpetual state of recovery. There’s always a persistent doubt -- a suspicion that there’s a fundamental flaw in me that no amount of therapy will fix -- and that doubt latched onto some random person’s conviction that Ed is a monster. It says, If Ed will always be a monster, what about you?

And I know that voice is wrong because it’s always been a liar. I know that it doesn’t matter that some portion of the fanbase turned on Ed in season two because that man isn’t real and he’s not me. I know that, for people who haven’t experienced something that was reflected in Ed’s arc, it might be difficult to sympathize with him (and with real life people who blow their lives up in their despair). 

There will always be people who don’t understand or can’t empathize with that kind of desperate hopelessness, but there are also many, many people who get it… and some of those people were clearly in season two's writer’s room. Some of those people are in this fandom.

I guess what I’m getting at is this: I hope that, if you saw yourself in Ed’s early season two story, you know that you’re not a monster and you’re not a villain in someone else’s story, no matter what anyone else says. I hope you know that you’re worthy of love. 

I hope you know you’re not alone.

[balanceoflightanddark]

Kuvira and Bryke's Problem with Moral Ambiguity

I will be honest with you...I really like Kuvira.

She is probably one of my favorite characters from Legend of Korra. I like her design. I like a lot of the ideas behind her. And I think Zelda Williams did a great job with the character. So I can understand why Bryke wanted to do something different with her and try to redeem her.

Here's the problem. I love Kuvira...but she's also indicative of one of the show's biggest problems. Mainly the inability to commit to a morally ambiguous conflict.

Again, the whole point of Kuvira's character was that she wasn't a wholly irredeemable monster. That her methods, while heavy handed, weren't entirely in the wrong and her heart was in the right place. And we do see evidence of that early on with her forces giving relief to billages, stamping out bandits, and outing corrupt officials. Heavy handed and early warning signs sure, but nothing too over the top.

Then they made her into a power hungry dictator.

Yeah. Kind of hard to sell her as sympathetic when she takes imagery from real life oppressive and fascist political parties and governments.

Sad thing is, Kuvira here is not the exception to this. Throughout The Legend of Korra, we are presented with many antagonistic groups that are responding to some injustice or moral qualm which doesn't paint the current status quo the heroes are defending in a good light. Non-bender discrimination led to Amon and the Equalists. Unalaq was a response to mankind losing touch with the Spirit World. The Red Lotus were spurned by corruption in high places. And Kuvira was restoring order to a broken Earth Kingdom full of anarchy. It's clear that Bryke intended for all of these groups and characters to have some kind of point to generate moral ambiguity. Asking whether or not Korra and Co were truly in the right.

Yet when it came time to deliver, the antagonists were almost always portrayed as being in the wrong and often were portrayed in a way that makes it difficult for the audience to truly sympathize with them. The Equalists and the Red Lotus become terrorists. Amon is a bender with flimsy reasonings. Unalaq literally fuses with the Avatar equivalent of Satan. And again, Kuvira becomes a dictator. While their points are given some credence, the characters themselves always become a final boss for the heroes to triumphantly defeat. Which...muddies the message since it becomes difficult to see the villains' argument when they're treated the way they are.

Now admittedly, it is difficult to write a character like this. Balancing out the character's reasonable and sympathetic traits with the need to be an opposing force to the protagonists who audiences are normally predisposed to root for. So the question remains: how do you go about finding this equilibrium?

While I'm not a professional writer, I can think of at least two good methods. The first is allowing the antagonist to do genuinely good things that seems at odds with their position. This could include a concern for civilians or their comrades, limiting their violence, or throwing themselves in the line of danger for the sake of others. Kuvira does demonstrate this a few times with sending relief to civilians who need it or choosing to face down the Avatar herself rather than ordering her men to do it.

The second is actually giving a concrete reason for why the antagonist is escalating things. Maybe the situation is just that bad where the antagonist feels the need to escalate or is a response to something that the heroes did. Perhaps the antagonist's grievances are legitimate and they have a solid reason to fight. Again, this is explored with Prince Wu's incompetence and the attempted assassination on Kuvira's life by Suyin. While her methods are heavy handed, you could see why she may need to employ them.

The foundations for a solid character are there. If they expanded on that, we could've had a fairly compelling conflict where neither side is entirely in the right nor are they in the wrong.

And then they introduced re-education camps and had Kuvira invent the Avatar equivalent of an atomic bomb.

Uh...hate to be that guy, but why the hell is Kuvira sympathetic again? Especially when other villains who did far less evil get crapped on while she gets a redemption arc in the comics?

glares at what they did with Azula

...I'm sorry but no. Korra wouldn't have ever turned out to be a fascist And trying to say the villain can be redeemed because they're like the hero raises so many flags for the franchise as a whole that I'm surprised they didn't do the same with Ozai. What? He's who Zuko would've ended up as if he went too far.

I get what they were getting at with Kuvira. I really do. And with better writing, maybe she could've been that character I mentioned. The groundworks are all there. But the problem they ran in was consistency and commitment. They failed to keep her sympathy and anti-villain status consistent by making her too horrible to properly feel for. And they never actually committed to fostering this morally ambiguous conflict.

Trust me, I'm not knocking against Kuvira and her fans. I'm really not. I understand the appeal. I even think a lot of her fans have better interpretations and ideas than Bryke (trust me, Kuvira has some pretty good fanfics out there). But if they wanted to redeem who we saw in the series, we needed more than a single comic trilogy. Especially when other characters don't even get a chance at that.

[miixz]

🔥🔥gimme a spicy svsss opinion!

SQQ is the villain of SVSSS, and by that I mean SY as well as SJ, though obviously in different ways.

SJ was the irredeemable villain of PIDW, which sadly doesn't get acknowledged often enough (I cannot describe how much I wish I could find more fics with him there in which he's allowed to be the main villain tether than sad and deserving of nothing but sympathy)

But I also feel like we ignore SY's role as the redeemable villain of SVSSS.

If you take him out from the plot, it's amazing how much of the conflict can't really happen. He's allowed to redeem himself because not only did he raise Luo Binghe into someone who could forgive him, but he also seeks that forgiveness. He might not have meant to hurt him, and he had his reasons, but he did do so and he admits his wrongs on the end, wanting to do better by Binghe. But he did make the mistakes that led into the biggest messes on the plot and he knows it too.

I suppose you could argue it's on the system, who forced him into that role, but Shen Yuan/Shen Qingqiu himself realizes later that even his task of making sure Luo Binghe entered the abyss could have been handled differently, that he was needlessly cruel there.

To me that's a very interesting dynamic they have, that SQQ(SY) manages to fulfill the role of both love interest and villain at once. I really like it, but I don't see it much in the fandom, at least The corners I've been to.

[dana-chan-the-control-brain]

Hey, do you feel their a double standard between the old moon and the original eclipse ? People will defend original eclipse actions like he was alone. Nobody gave him a chance, BUT when you bring up old moon and some good he did or say he was hurt too they be no old moon was terrible and irredeemable don't get me wrong I do consider them similar they both have s connection to the killcode and they did hurt people but I feel one get criticized harder than the other

Yeah, no I completely agree with you.

Old Moon wasn't as terrible as people made him out to be.

Yes, he was an abuser and toxically codependent with Sun. To the point he even told Sun he's not allowed to feel any emotions other then happiness or he won't be happy.

But the love was Damn there. Old Moon sacrificed everything he could to keep his family safe. Which carried over to the new Moon spectacularly.

NewMoon is very hard on his old self. Because he didn't like how he treated Sun. OldMoon tortured and tormented Sun until they separated and decided to become brothers.

Evil!Sun even said that Moon and Sun becoming brothers in that outcome is rare across dimensions. One or the other kills each other, or Moon dies early.

OldMoon also because of his trauma he sympathized more with villians, which is why Eclipse got to the position where Sun destroyed Moon's manna pool that lead to his death in the first place. Oldmoon feeling compassion for Lunar who took him in as a brother without Sun's permission. OldMoon who couldn't kill KC once he showed signs of change. OldMoon who took the deal with Eclipse.

OldMoon took on so many responsibilities on himself, because he saw himself as the Protector of "Sun's innocence" and his One singular family member was all he had back then. So of course he'd be protective and he even said that Sun was the only good thing in his life.

(Kinda reminds me how Solar sees his own Sun.)

But now... NewMoon has many family. Earth actually helped raise Moon in a sense, cause as far as NewMoon is concerned, his sister has been here since the start. And Sun was greiving and mourning, so Earth Stepped up and showed Moon how to become a compassionate person, even before Sun told him to watch the videos on their channel. I don't doubt she was an extremely positive influence as he developed into his own person.

NewMoon does carry the traits of the old Moon, caring deeply about his family, but he's FAR LESS codependent then he was. He now has different trauma of building up his old self, and villians in his head as more then how they are. He's just scared of becoming something he doesn't want. Or going back to the old bad habits he did have. Which is why he veers so hard in the other direction.

OldMoon sympathized with Villains? Well, now NewMoon won't give them a chance (Although I think that changed when he saw how pointless and pathetic Eclipse is)

NewMoon even attempted to hug and comfort Sun very early in his life. Which Sun pushed away, or flinched inwards at, because he wasn't used to affection from Moon. Even Now, NewMoon is sad that he doesn't get a lot of hugs.

OldMoon did have his good points, but his bad points too.

I actually do like to think OldMoon is watching Sun through NewMoon's eyes. Happy of the brother he can finally be now.

[astro-b-o-y-d]

'Bill Cipher is great because he's just an irredeemably evil villain with no sad backstory' Girl, I WISH he was that simple. I'm over here fighting for my life as I peel back all the layers I realized were there. He's like the character equivalent of a bloomin' onion and I'm crying in the middle of an Outback Steakhouse because I realized too late that I am in over my head trying to consume this fucking thing.

[strawglicks]

thinking abt how every spamvil hater ive seen villainizes jevil and victimizes spamton to the moon and back. like their argument against spamvil is ALWAYS, without fail, "it would hurt spamton :(" and then they have nothing to say about jevil or talk abt how jevil would hurt him somehow.

First of all idk where this weirdass villainization of jevil is coming from. People seem to think hes this irredeemable soulless clown who feels nothing and doesnt care abt anyone. Meanwhile, ingame, he literally admits he is lonely and was close to Seam in the past. Yes he needs to learn how to be serious and has a cynical view of the world, but for some reason the fandom doesnt see him as a complex and flawed character. they just decide hes too far gone and would hurt anyone he has a relationship with, including spamton.

And then theres spamton, everyone's favorite innocent angel never did anything wrong bbg apparently!! The fandom doesnt treat spamton anything like they do Jevil. They actually want good things for him, a better future, and feel sorry for him. That's not a bad thing, I feel the same, but these same people will ignore all his flaws and how literally evil he was in the snowgrave route. Spamton is not a good person. I thought this was explicitly clear in the game, but apparently bc he has sad lore spoonfed to the audience this is ignored.

In regards to Jevil, Spamton is extremely bitter and jealous of him. The only things spamton himself has said about jevil is that he wishes to "surpass" him, and that he lost to jevil's games in the past. He even admits he cheated in many of these games. Spamton is not a trustworthy person. if you havent noticed his character is literally based on scam emails. Spamton is just jealous of Jevil's happiness despite the situation theyre both in, which is understandable in a way. Still, it doesnt mean spamton is in the right for being bitter and resentful. There's no real evidence Jevil has actively hurt spamton in any way, esp not on purpose. He literally just beat him at games and is way happier than he is and he's angry about it.

People consume all this shit at SURFACE LEVEL- reminder that this is an unfinished game MADE TO BE ANALYZED- and dont look any deeper into these very complex and interesting characters. All these spamvil haters assume Jevil is just irredeemable and too far gone and find spamtons backstory depressing but dont think about what these two NEED to heal from their experiences. Having gone through similar shit, they're really the only people who could understand each other to such an extent. They both need to let their guard down and listen to each other because they can offer each other a different point of view on a similar situation, which is what the both of them NEED more than anything. Yes it would take a lot of time; these are very flawed people. But you cant just. leave them where they are right now and expect either of them to heal completely on their own. Being alone is the LAST thing either of them needs. Jevil literally admits to being lonely and spamton ACTIVELY gets worse the longer he is alone. Yes he has trust issues, but he needs to be able to open up if he ever wants to get better.

Theres also the argument of "spamton is afraid of clowns" which isnt valid anyway because i just got done explaining how even if hes afraid of opening up and being close to people, spamton NEEDS it if he wants any chance at getting better. Sometimes you have to face your fears to make any progress. Plus spamton himself has never shown any sign of fearing jevil. He's only ever regarded him with bitterness and jealousy.

idk how to conclude this fuck you

[aquaburst3]

I'm in the process of watching Helluva Boss as research for a future writing project. Something that pisses me off about the show, other than the underdeveloped female characters, hypocritical double standards and Stolas being a uwu woobie sad boy, is how it treats Stella.

When I first starting the show, I was intrigued by the Stolas cheating subplot. I thought it would lead to some character drama. But, nope. Turns out that Stella is just a one dimensional bitch, who is abusive to Stolas and is as dumb as a brick. Or in other words, she's the embodiment of that one old fanfic trope where a female character is transformed in an irredeemable bitch just to push the main mlm ship together. Like...what?

I would've been fine with Stella being an angry and abusive bitch under normal circumstances. Women can be abusers just like men in real life. Female villains like that can not only work, but be fantastic in their own right. The Owl House pulled that off with Odelia Blight, and I love her as a minor antagonist in that series.

However, in this case, Stella's only evil because it Stolas more of an angsty backstory and lets him off the hook for what he did, making it seem justified. Since Stella is cartoonishly evil, abusive and completely one dimensional, he has the excuse of, "Look! I know I backstabbed my wife, ripped my family apart and gave my daughter a fuckton of issues, but I can't help it! She's an abusive bitch that treats me like garbage. She had it coming!" So it's just lazy and shitty writing. Simple as that.

What pisses me off about this is that it takes away all of Stolas' consequences for his actions and the nuence out of a dark subject matter, making it a completely black and white issue. Cheating is no joke. It leads to emotional and psychological issues for the victim that can last for years to come. If Stella was an actual character instead of a plot device to justify Stolas' actions, she would be no different. As someone who has a close friend of mine still suffering years after her ex-fiancé cheated on her, how the show is handling this really pisses me off. Either handle these things with respect and nuance or don't add it in at all.

This is a damn shame, too. Stella and the whole cheating subplot had so much potential to be interesting. But it's all dashed in favour of lazy writing. No one deserves to be cheated on. Even women like her.

Honestly, if I written the show, I would've made her a pampered brat, who is always being pushed around and controlled by the men in her life. She genuinely loves her husband, despite it being an arranged marriage. When she figures out about this, she is super pissed and heartbroken by the act. Her brother takes advantage of her ire by convincing her to hire a hitman to kill her husband. She agrees. When that fails, he then tells her that she has to kill her daughter as well. That is when she starts to hesitate. Her brother goes behind her back to hire Striker again to carry out a hit on her daughter, but she has a change of heart and saves her life. She still hates Stolas for what he did and still is angry at him, but she just walks out of his life and goes out on her own. That way she's still a bitch, but she has hints of good in her, her motives are somewhat understandable and she has an arc of learning to stand up for herself. Idk, that's just me.

[akatsukitrash]

1, 2, 3, 6, 7, [SWERVES TO AVOID 8 I'M SURE WE AGREE] 9, 12, and 20 for tobirama i'm a greedy hog

HIIII

Character Ask Game

1. Why do you like or dislike this character?

Honestly, I don't even remember the first time I saw him. I watched Naruto during my entire childhood, so at most I must've been 5 or 6 when I saw his fight against Hiruzen, and I don't believe he stuck out to baby me. But during the War arc, while I was entirely focused on Madara, he appeared. And for some reason, that one panel with the four Hokages back from the dead are what did it to me. He was the one my eyes kept going back to. It might not be the only reason I like him, but his unique character design is definitely what drew me to him at first. He became one of my favourite characters soon after thanks to his dynamic with Hashirama and Orochimaru. I like that there is so much to explore in his character, so much hidden under the surface. He's very compelling to me.

2. Favorite canon thing about this character?

His being so hard working. It's just so interesting to me, and makes him feel more human rather than another effortless genius. Fun fact, he's ranked 3rd most hardworking character in the entire verse, after Gai and Lee.

3. Least favorite canon thing about this character?

He never gets really confronted to how terrible Konoha is (being told without any details that the Uchiha "are no more" isn't really much of a confrontation to the dark side of the system he helped create) and so he never questions his ideals and aside from a half-hearted admission that Madara's plan isn't so bad, he doesn't ever think of a better way for peace to happen. Hell, he just blames that war solely on Madara like he's the source of all evil. It's very annoying bc it makes his character feel static - he never learns about his mistakes nor is forced to confront other point of views (Madara briefly talks to him but a) Madara dislikes Tobirama for obvious reasons so he's not trying to recruit him and b) Kishimoto decided Madara is an irredeemable villain for doing less crimes than the average Konoha shinobi and so he would not write Tobirama questioning his beliefs). Basically he's a state dog and dies that way.

6. What's something you have in common with this character?

Oh this is gonna be sad. Well not to reveal too much of my own Tragic Backstory on my blog (unlockable at Level 5 of Friendship for mutuals though!), I relate a lot to the loneliness and jealousy he must've felt as a child. It's another thing that drew me to him, because the flashback isn't even from his point of view nor does Hashirama dwell on how things must be for his brother. He lost Itama and Kawarama, and Hashirama was more interested in his friend than in Tobirama's feelings (mind you it's not Hashirama's responsibility to deal with that, he was a child soldier himself wrestling with insane amounts of grief and guilt, but I get why baby Tobirama would be upset). And having to deal with an abusive parent on top of it all, while expected to not bother anyone with his feelings...yeah. Another less sad thing we have in common is that we're both mad scientists. I'm not elaborating.

7. What's something the fandom does when it comes to this character that you like?

Explore the complexity of his character and feelings! He's such a tertiary character, I genuinely didn't expect so many people to take such a liking to him, and especially to still discuss him, his past, his actions nearly 10 years after the ending. He's taken seriously by a good chunk of the Founders' fandom and I really like that. It's rare for a character I like to not get treated like absolute dog shit (anti tobirama fans who? let's pretend they don't exist shall we).

9. Could you be roommates with this character?

Probably, yes. Honestly it's likely he'd be the one yelling after me to do chores than the other way around.

12. What's a headcanon you have for this character?

Cooking is like therapy for him. Originally, he wasn't allowed in the kitchen due to his blindness, but Butsuma tends to have a hard time saying no to him + is generally not an ableist parent, so he eventually let him and he learnt on his own. He's very good at it, and it helps him feel grounded when he's anxious. He hates it when someone messes with his kitchen though. Don't change the spices placements or he'll kill you.

20. Which other character is the ideal best friend for this character, the amount of screentime they share doesn't matter?

Touka! She's described in the databook as Hashirama's close associate, but I like to think she was the boys' best friend (it's the entire basis of But in this twilight, our choices seal our fate, really). He and Touka develop a very beautiful friendship throughout the years. I also like to think he would've gotten along with Deidara very well. I know! I'm making connections with characters who could never interact but hear me out. Deidara INVENTED a DOJUTSU just to counter Sharingan genjutsu. I feel that's smth that'd get Tobirama's nerdy ass squealing in delight. I can see them spend hours discussing jutsus. Plus I feel Deidara is calm enough to not anger Tobirama nor awaken his Mother Instincts (like Naruto does). There is the little issue of Deidara being an anti government terrorist and Tobirama being, well, the government, but if that wrinkle is smoothed out, I think they'd have a blast together. Pun unintended

Thanks for the ask!!!

[marinacourage]

unpopular opinion but i want Way to get shot while saving Babe but not die and then episode ending with Pete sitting beside Way in hospital. Man is redeemed for everything he did to babe. ( I think it won't make much sense for him to fall for Pete so fast when few days ago he was still pining for his 10 year crush. I want him to take some time. )

And season 2 , I want him to go real apeshit.

Like the way all these hate posts about him make him sound 1000 times worse than he actually is.😑 I mean I fully agree he's has done some very creepy bad villainous deeds lying, manipulating but man Tony, the actual child trafficker doesn't receive 10 % of hate of what Way recieves.😒It's sad and unfortunate but jail doesn't exist for lying and manipulation but child trafficking is serious punishable offence. I have no idea of omegaverse constitution but since Babe have super senses and haven't failed dope test of car racing, so I guess using senses for manipulation also doesn't land you in jail there. ( not my fault, talk to omegaverse lawmakers 🤷‍♀️).

But like people wishing death ending for him, judging him irredeemable, making him sound like some heinous horrible psychopathic serial killer or serial sexual crime offender. 🙃As far I remember even Vegas haven't received this amount of hate when in front of him, Way is a very tame villain. Way does deserve hate but not this much amount of biased hate. 🙂

With the kind of powers Way possess, the world could be in his control. But He manipulated his friend to come to him whenever there's a problem and kept him from having relationship ( even without Way manipulation babe couldn't be in healthy lovely relationship before Charlie because "SMELL"🤢) . I agree Way is definitely very bad person here but I mean he could have been worse. Though that definitely doesn't make him good person, there's a difference, it gives him chance of redeeming himself.

But no, since no one cares, fuck therapy and good guy image. In season 2 , Babe is out of his life ( vacationing somewhere with Charlie and kids) and Way has saved him from death once so their chapter close. Since he experienced almost death once so now it's like a new birth, new life for him, where he's seriously considering his life choices. When he looks in mirror and realises people should go to war for this face.😳 ( yes i read your previous post ) And so this time he should fully unleash his inner mean bitch, go fully unhinged while falling obsessively, possesively for Pete, where he gives no single fucks about anyone except Pete, no babe, no alan, no one else. Just Pete.

Man has been sad and cried enough for 10 yrs. Enough he has kept things in his mind and smiled fake. Now Way doesn't care about etiquettes and keeping faces but spit mean true facts straight on people faces. 😈With the powers he have everyone should be scared of him. Like I want Way to Show them how crazy in love he can be and how far he can cross the lines when he so so deeply falls for someone and that person accepts him. What it actually means when he abuses his powers fully on others with sole reason to keep them away from Pete. What it actually means when he is really possesive and obsessed and how he actually gaslit, gatekeep, girlboss. Him getting on the nerves of every single person and they could do nothing.

I'm not Way apologist, neither I have suffered second lead syndrome from him in beginning. AlanJeff are my bias but I truly enjoy Way character too. But some of the hate posts really annoys me. I don't know what he deserves or not deserves for what he did to Babe, but i really want to see him go crazy batshit for once and fully unleash his inner lunatic bitch in love potential.😌

you almost quoted me with the “getting shot by saving babe waking up in hospital with pete by his side” since that’s exactly how I see their finale and I wrote it yesterday as an answer to a post here on tumbler 😅

honestly I don’t see too much hate towards way, maybe because I’m not looking 😅 i want to believe that many people see where his obsession is coming from, the manipulator manipulated into some pathetic deeds by a more powerful force. what pushed me to empathise with him were his words that went something like “I hoped that if I do what Tony says it will be over” because I can see how a person would be so out of their mind because of constant pressure that they’ll do even violent and disgusting things if it would make it easier on them. I might be wrong of course, I might see the situation wrongly too, but those are my thoughts so far.

i actually don’t believe that way is inherently evil. for me he’s a mean girl that needs a person who will like him and love him for who he is, and not despite who he is. as of now he’s never been fully honest with anybody but pete so even if someone liked him they liked the illusion of him and not the broken sad obsessed failure of a man with gorgeous eyes he is.

I’m almost sure there will be no season 2 but in my mind way will leave racing and lean more into the customer service in the car dealership he works at if I remember correctly. use his talents in a less evil manner let’s say 😅 and ofc pete will be slowly breaking him out of his shell and prove to him that he can be loved in a very sincere way, and Pete’s love must be strong as hell. they are 100% gonna be that one couple that exists in their own world even surrounded by other people.

as for possessiveness I actually believe it would take way lots of time to realise he has the right claim pete in any way, I have a hc that when way finds out that kenta was/is in love with pete he will withdraw severely because he wouldn’t dare to compete, he’s not worthy, same old.

but when in established relationship way would certainly recover his bad bitch persona and be the legendary trophy wife pete deserves.

wow that was a long ass reply 😅 i wonder if you’re the same anon as the previous ask :)

anyways, very interesting discussion, holding out for Friday now ✊