#mcu theories

[mimir-anoshe]

"Why do we fall?"

SPOILERS for Thunderbolts* and Theorising for Doomsday. If you don't want either don't read. Contains discussion on suicidal themes TW.

So guys what if... And it's a big IF 'cause ducking hell there's so many characters in this damn Doomsday movie, but GOD would it be poetically beautiful storytelling...

I think, in Doomsday at some point Yelena is going to fall to her death.

Yikes, right?

Either trying to stop something and accidentally getting thrown off a cliff/building/space ship or more likely... in some sacrificial play. Just like Nat, because what are their stories if not poetically entangled tragedies? The rise and fall of mythical heroes with human hearts and broken souls, like two ships passing in the night. They miss each other, separated paragraphs on a page, but the rhyme remains the same. One epic poem. The same story, though I'm hoping Yelena's has a different ending.

And it's going to play into the crux of Bobs story in Doomsday, or atleast the "False Victory" in his heroes journey and Yelena's symbolic death and rebirth (or very literal), which will lead into Secret Wars.

Why do I think this other than the character angst of it all? Well...

Theory?? A poetic wish?

(Fanfiction? A hope... somebody please write this, I would but I don't have a lot of time. This fandom already feeds me so well).

Yelena is as stubborn as Nat, if not more. Whatever reason - I think it has to do with the anchor being of 616 but that's a different theory for another time - she believes she has to do it alone. She has to jump. She has to fall. Because at that point everyone else has failed. Nobody else is coming to save the day. Its on her, or at least she thinks it is. This is the last shot, and she doesn't have super strength or speed or the ability to fly. But she has this. She can do this. She can give this.

She has to be the hero, just like her sister. Choose the fall so everyone else can rise back up and win the day. Even if she loses. Even if it means her life is the cost.

That's what a goalie does right? Falls in order to stop the team from losing. Leaps. Makes the sacrifice. When everyone else fails, they're the one everyone falls back onto. Either they hold that line, or all is lost... Dooms day. And in her mind, what's her life compared to that of the multiverse. What's her life compared to the lives of her new family?

Nat did it, made the ultimate sacrifice. Scored the goal, or stopped one from going in. Not only to save everyone, but especially to save her found family. The people she loves. And heartbreakingly, to save Yelena.

Yelena is painfully aware of that, and Nat never gave her the option to do the same in return. I do wonder if a part of Yelena was angry or bitter at that. Grief can feel like that, especially when it comes to suicide. Like the person made their choice, but in doing so, took others choices away. Even if that's illogical, and unfair, even if thaty person saved the Universe, those feelings are still real.

Part of Thunderbolts* themes - if subtle - is Yelena living in the shadow of her sister's sacrifice. The legend of her heroism. Like Bob lives in the shadow of his own Void and his fear of unleashing it again. A big theme, it seems, going into Doomsday.

She's trying to follow in her footsteps. Trying to do better. Be the hero. To fill that emptiness with purpose, the same as her sister. Bob is afraid of being a hero because of the Void, Yelena is afraid of not being any kind of hero at all. Because of Natasha.

In Thunderbolts* she falls off that building into a "void" at the beginning of the movie, foreshadowing her stepping into the actual Void near the end.

Foreshadow is a very ironic verb in this case for both of them.

She stepped forward, knowing that there was a very real chance she was never coming back. It was actually incredibly reckless, with no regard for her own safety. It was not unreasonable to say she could've died right there. Even Bucky calls it out in the text "What if she's dead?"

She bets it all based off of one small moment earlier where Bob saw her past in the void and Yelena experienced a shame room for the first time... (I could talk for days about her void room being THE ONLY ONE WHERE BOB IS PHYSICALLY PRESENT but I'll save it for another midnight meta fest). But she does it, because she wanted to save him, to bring him home, in the way she wanted to bring Natasha home but never could.

Those scenes do several things for the story and work on a few different levels in terms of symbolism, character and theme.

It harkens back to her sacrificing herself in Black Widow to kill Dreykov, exploding and falling to what she thinks is her death. Both that and her falling in Thunderbolts* were meant to be visual and thematic parallels to Nat sacrificing herself in Endgame by committing suicide. Falling to her death. Nat gets to save Yelena in Black Widow, but Yelena didn't get to save Nat in Endgame. Like Clint said, she was better, and so she got to make the choice. Clint couldn't save her from her own choice, and neither could Yelena. And they both have to find a way to live with that.

Its also an overarching visual metaphor for the mental health themes that are so important in this movie. Themes of loneliness, depression and suicide. Themes that apply to every character in the movie, but in terms of the movies thematic heart, are specifically a binary between Bob and Yelena. Those feelings of emptiness, of loneliness. Of a Void.

Yelena: "What is even the point of all this?"

Bob: "Then I remember that nothing matters..."

Both of their arcs are connected to themes of suicide, or suicidal tendencies, and finding a reason to live. To keep going, even if its for each other. Everything about Yelena's mission at the start of the movie is akin to a passive non-verbal suicidal ideation, not actively trying to kill herself but also not being careful or respectful of her own life. Same as Bob in the vault, they parallel each other in those ways. It's the "Meh. Guess I'll just bumble on but if I die, no big deal" mentality. It breaks my heart.

Though, unlike Bob who has the toxic Valentina whispering in his ear, spurring on his later manic episode (Bipolar represent). Instead, Yelena has Alexei to help her see that in the darkness, there is a light. It doesn't drive out the darkness, but it makes it lighter. Warmer. Brighter. If the Void in all of us is a dark mirror that reflects our own negative views of ourselves, our perceived mistakes, guilt, regrets, shame, then Alexei's line about "you need other people to see the good" is about the loved ones in our life being mirrors of light. Where we see the flaws in ourselves, the reason we need each other is because we can act as mirrors that reflect the good in others.

Its like what Natasha said about the avengers in Endgame.

"They made me better."

Other people can see the best versions of ourselves, and when we see it through them, it allows us to see ourselves in a more eclectic, realistic and positive way that can help us escape the illogical doubt and shame of our void.

And because Yelena sees that in herself through her Dad, and from her sister who was a light in her life - a symbol of hope and redemption - she can then be that mirror for Bob. Cue Yelena and Bob seeing each other/communicating through a mirror, because they are both deuteragonists and foils for one another. The Void is Bobs dark mirror. Yelena is Bobs mirror of light. Same in the way that Yelena has her own darkness, and Bob becomes a beacon of goodness and light in her world that she strives to protect.

Yes there's the nihilism of her walking into that void, a version in her head that her suffering, her loneliness, her "pointless" existence can end. There might even be a relief in that for her. But it's overshadowed by a hope. A hope that she can reach through that despair, those feelings of unworthiness, and save somebody. To be the sunrise to somebody else's endless night. Because she couldn't be there to save Nat, she was going to be damned sure she leaped over that edge and fell into that Void to catch Bob. And in doing so, save a part of herself she thought had died with Natasha.

Which brings me back to Doomsday.

Yelena is the Avengers "Goalie." She was in Thunderbolts* and that theme will continue into Doomsday, I'm sure of it. The one who brings everyone together, who lights up the room.

"I want to be the one everyone can rely on if they make a mistake."

-Alexei quoting 5 year old Yelena.

Its such a beautiful message for a character, and I thought I loved Yelena before this movie... Boy do I love her now. Yelena is the one everyone can rely on, who will catch everyone when they fall down. When they make a mistake. From Sam Wilson, to Carol Danvers, to the Reed Richards... To John, to Alexei, to Ava, to Bucky... to Bob. No matter what it costs her. But if she's catching everyone when they fall, who's going to catch her?

When Bob falls in this movie into the lifts "void" its Yelena who catches him. Saves him. When Bob metaphorically "falls down" and the Void begins to consume the light, she catches him. Holds him. Shows him he's not alone. And I have a feeling in those 14 months when he's had moments of darkness, when the entire worlds been against him because of the potential threat the void poses including Sam Wilsons Avengers, she's been his biggest supporter, biggest defender alongside the other Thunderbolts* (or New Avengerz lmao), and the one who catches him when he falls down. The one he relies on.

So in Doomsday, after he spends most of the movie suppressing his powers as the Sentry because of his fear of the Void, of hurting people... There will be a moment where Yelena makes a choice. Where because of that choice, she falls. And Bob as he is, hiding from his powers, can only watch as she falls into another Void. To her death. So Bob comes to the height of his arc, and has to make a choice too.

Let the girl he loves fall and save the world from the potential threat of the void and Doom using that power. Or rise above his fear, and catch her. Be a hero, even if it means potentially dooming the world and worlds beyond.

I believe this is the moment in the movie where Bob finally stops stalling and acts, whether through choice or instinct (though I hope he makes an active choice to save her). It would bring the symbolism of both Yelen and Bob falling into the void full circle, also resolving the tragedy of Clint being forced to drop Natasha and Yelena having to live with her sisters choices. This time Black Widow doesn't have to die to save everyone by falling to her death. This time, someones there to catch her, with Bob rising above his own darkness to do it.

Now it could go one of two ways, either Bob manages to catch her before she hits the ground and dies which is what I think will happen. There's also a version in my head where she falls and dies, Bob comes onto the scene or watches it happen without being able to help, and then turns into the Sentry to heal her/resurrect her. Which I believe, the more power he uses the more likely the Void is to take over, and healing/resurrection is the fastest way for that to happen. So instead of physically catching her, he metaphorically catches her falling into death, and in doing so, becomes lost in the Void (keep wanting to type Void Sauce lmao; lost in the void sauce) afterwards to the point that not even Yelena can pull him back out this time. Enter Doom and whatever bullshit he has up his sleeve to use the void and or manipulate that power/Bob, or even completely strip Bob of his powers altogether.

The gist of it is, as foreshadowed in the Thunderbolts* movie...

Yelena will fall, and Bob will catch her. Finishing off the poem of Natasha and Yelena's story not with a tragic cut off, but hope, allowing Yelena to live on and do the things Natasha never got to. The life that Natasha gave her when she was snapped back. And in the same breath Bob will finally truly accept his power and responsibility as the Sentry, overcoming his fear to save the girl who saved him.

All before it comes crashing down. Yelena may be the catalyst that saves the Avengers and also Dooms them. Enter... The madness that is my mind making up theories for secret wars...

God what has Thunderbolts*, Bob and Yelena done to me? I haven't written meta like this in yonks, or been this excited about Marvel in a long time, outside of the comics at least. I'm expecting to be disappointed, hell all of my above theories could be completely off mark, they just make sense to me because of their character arcs and what I would consider a well-written story. Amazing foreshadowing if that is the case. But honestly, the fact they gave us this gem? I will love this movie and the fandom creativity that comes out of it forever, even if Doomsday once again drags me back into my apathetic marvel era.

Here's to hoping.

"Why do we fall Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up."

-Thomas Wayne, the Dark Knight.

[buzzerdome]

So I knew it was Billy All Along. I saw the orignal casting and nothing else made sense, especially after alllllll of the hints screaming at us that it was Billy. I'll do a rewatch someday with the livestream, but rn, we're talking about episode 5.

And I'm so freaking invested,

Was the last test with Agatha's mother even a test? or just the demiurge unable to control his powers, like his mother? Someone pointed out the aspect ratio change when they are actually in the trials, it did not change in episode 5 when they entered that cabin. After everything, what we saw from the first test; we know Agatha's trial, her biggest trauma/regret, will have to do with her son and her sacrifice to gain the Darkhold. Not her mother. So why is that the focus?? And why did everyone turn on her the way they did except for Rio (the one whos mind cannot be changed)???? Like it was supepr aggressive how they all came at her right?

I believe Agatha when she says she cant control her absorption powers. She's also correct about Billy being like Wanda. In that He can't control his powers in such a way that he doesn't know he is hurting people. OR he knows and refuses to acknowledge it like Wanda wouldn't until the end.

I think Billy hurt Sharon and Alice and didn't even know it, all he and his powers knew was that he wanted in the coven. I think like his mama, Billy will do anything to get back the ones he loves.

[cookiedoughchoco]

🐺 BUCKY BARNES / WHITE WOLF THEORY 🐺

Okay, listen. What if Thunderbolts ends with Bucky DYING (I know, I know, stay with me 😭) only for the post-credits scene to bring him back… in Wakanda? 👀

💀 The Ending:

Bucky makes the ultimate sacrifice—maybe betrayed, maybe just being the self-sacrificing mess he is—but either way, he’s gone. Fans are devastated. The credits roll.

Then…

✨ The Post-Credits Scene ✨

We see Wakandan tech. A dimly lit room. A heartbeat monitor beeping back to life. And then, we hear Shuri’s voice:

“You’re not done yet, White Wolf.”

AND BOOM. BUCKY. WAKANDA. WHITE WOLF.

Imagine him waking up, new purpose, new armor, and the realization that he finally has a home. A protector, not just a soldier.

The Future

This sets him up for Black Panther 3. Fighting alongside Shuri. Protecting Wakanda. And maybe… just maybe… something more. 👀

Marvel, if you’re reading this, make it happen. 🛑

[tobitoooo]

Tony Stark as Dr. Doom: Planned All Along?

"Here’s the thing:

RDJ is coming in for Doom Wars and Secret Wars.

If the destination is Battle World- and Doom is a pivotal character in that (the most important character), it makes more sense to have him originate from a reality that was destroyed as part of the Deadpool/Wolverine movie and somehow ended up in the 616 universe.

He would be coming in from a world without a Tony Stark, into a world after Tony Stark was dead. Downey would be coming back to Marvel to play the same character, without the butterfly effect that made him Tony Stark, into a world where he is smart enough to understand “he” was “Tony Stark” and he saved the universe, dying in the process.

He would look around and see the world hadn’t learned from his sacrifice and that would be his motivation to try to “fix things” (like Tony always tried to do and usually failed) by imposing his default solution- which is big brother Government and him in charge or everything.

This ends up being the unchecked power trip that Tony never had- it relates the two characters but keeps them separate and Downey gets to explore both sides of the same characters psyche- within the same universe.

Secret Wars is the climax of the power trip because he is imposing his solution onto all realities, merging them into one- “utopia”.

I’m telling you- I think this is where this is all going.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am."

THIS. IS SUCH A WONDERFUL THEORY. I CAN'T. I HOPE THIS HAPPENS. taken from the reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/1ehz8wm/tony_stark_as_dr_doom_planned_all_along/

[annachum]

A theory of mine : Rio Vidal is actually Amora the Enchantress

I'd love for her to be in MCU. I mean, if we got Lorelei and Skurge....I think Amora finally on screen debut ain't much of a stretch

Some reasons why I have this theory :

. Rio Vidal is an alias name - who could she be, really? She is also listed as a Green Witch. Well, Morgana le Fay is already in the MCU Runaways, so who else is a Green Witch? AMORA

. Let's be real, I find her personality is already kinda similar to Amora in spades

. Green And Goth?! AMORA, Y'ALL

. Rio Vidal's origins are still a mystery, but so far she's a runaway. Could it be that, after Lorelei got executed after Sif brought Lorelei back to Asgard, Amora was on a run from the Asgardian forces trying to hunt her down, and then she managed to sneak into Earth and put on an alias disguise?

. Rio Vidal's magic is mainly around dark chaos magic, similarly with Amora

So yeah, these are amongst reasons why I think Rio Vidal is Amora, y'all

[fabianocolucci]

Few things showcase you how much the internet has changed like the "Thanus Theory".

For context: back when the MCU was beginning, one of the things that people loved to do was making theories about what was going to happen. Which characters were going to be feature, how were things going to progress, what was the deal with the mysterious people shown in the trailers (although, if the person in question was a woman, everyone would just wonder "is she Captain Marvel?").

It was amazing, because the theorie were more or less believable, using clues found in previous instalments to make it coherent.

Then, after 10 years, it was time for Avengers Endgame. Obviously, since it was the final movie of the saga, one question arose: how were the heroes going to defeat Thanos, the ultimate villain of the story.

You'd think, after a decade of theorising, that MCU fans would come up with a convoluted plan, using 10 years and over 20 movies of lore and knowledge to understand what was going to happen.

Instead, everyone just said "Ant Man is going to crawl into Thanos' butt and become giant, thus defeating him".

Really, there were hardly any theories. Everyone just repeatedly said "Thanus" and moved along.

I don't know, but, looking back at it, you can see how much social media and the internet has changed thanks to this.

[mischievous-thunder]

Wade's not gonna remain "cum-loser" for much longer and you know that too, Logan.

[f-misc]

"He's a hundred and ten years old"

...did they celebrate bucky's birthday together?

the wiki has bucky's birthday as march 10th, 1917. and the celestial island summit in ca:bnw took place on april 16th, 2027. so bucky's 110th birthday was just last month. sam's not rounding. he knows bucky's a hundred and ten because they just had his birthday...

...I need to know how long of a time "missed you too" is covering...did they spend bucky's birthday together?? have they just not seen each other for only a month? or, if it's been longer...did sam call bucky on his birthday? text him?? he has their picture framed on the best shelf in his office for christ's sake; he must have done something.

how many old man jokes has he made.

[xxplastic-cubexx]

with these hands i can draw whatever i want

[honda-odyssey-the-queer-allegory]

I saw someone talking about this earlier, but I love the concept of The Winter Soldier being a ghost story. The IDEA of the Winter Soldier. Something you see out the corner of your eye. A ghost that leaves a trail of bodies. Something you never saw coming and never saw leave.

In CA:TWS the Death Squad mentioned by Bucky (idk how to spell the whole thing) is considered more dangerous. But in the 60 or so years that he was the Winter Soldier, he was the one people feared. Yes, the Death Squad was successful, but that was the work of 5. He created a reputation by being a one man killer. Not only that, but an efficient and deadly machine with one mission. To comply.

I kind of wish we got to see more of the Winter Soldier in action (but don't get me wrong, seeing Buck as the Winter Soldier makes me sad). Having more elaboration and action would be interesting though.

[chaotic-teen-cy]

Dude I just noticed something and I wanted to see if anyone else saw it to or if I'm just slow.

Was watching this scene and I looked at Morgans glove and I'm like hey, that kinda looks familiar

Because it looks like Peters glove. And I might be insane but like.... Don't it look the same??

And we know from Deadpool and Wolverine that they kept his old helmet. Who's to say they didn't keep his gloves?? From Morgan nonetheless. Idk I just thought that was cool.

[fyregrl]

Hear me out:

That didn't happen.

Like, that literally didn't happen.

Something stuck out to me. Lilia yelling "I hated this the first time!" immediately followed by Teen Billy yelling "Lilia's being weird again!"

When else has Lilia been weird?

During the first trial when she blurted out "Try to save Agatha!"

And in the second trial when she started saying "Alice, don't..."

Try to save Agatha. Alice, don't.

Alice, don't try to save Agatha.

What if at some point, episode five went from actually happening to Lilia having a vision? And in the next episode, she'll be able to stop what's going to happen by finishing her sentence--Alice, don't try to save Agatha--thus keeping Alice from dying and Billy from throwing the rest of them off the road.

I better be right about this

[ex0rin]

i'm CRYING why is he like this 😂 (x)

[waywardsou2]

I haven't seen anyone say this so I will. Bucky and Bob's story's parallel each other the same way two chapters follow each other

They both had pasts rooted in violence: Bucky grew up at the end of the first world war and ended up fighting in the second world war. Bob grew up in a house that was constantly filled with domestic violence and abuse

They both became human weapons, they differ here with Bucky's being involuntary and Bob's being semi-voluntary if ill informed: They were both experimented on with alternative versions of the super soldier serum that for better or worse turned them into super-powered beings

They both were taken advantage of: Bucky was abused and used as a weapon with his humanity completely discarded and Bob was used for press for Valentina's attempt to make it big in a world that was slowly loosing it's superhero's

They both have severe mental illness: Bob and Bucky both have PTSD from events in their pasts that still affect their everyday. Bob potentially has Bipolar and Bucky has anxiety and depression. (Bob probably has those too)

They were both saved by people they hurt: Bucky beat the ever loving shit out of Steve, Sam, T'Challa and Natasha yet all four of them still stuck around to help them. Bob hurt the entire time (I would say John and Yelena got the worst of it) and they still did what they could to save him and pull him back from the brink

They both have a "dark alternative self": Both Bob and Bucky have a versions of themselves that is a dark reflection of them. Bob has the void which is all his insecurities and past trauma personified and Bucky has the Winter Soldier who is a reflection of his past self

They both feel unworthy of the love from the people around them: At first Bucky was reluctant for Steve and Sam's help because he "wasn't worth all of this" and Bob seems to think that no matter what he does he will make a mistake and people will push him away

They both had to accept that their dark parts are not who they truely are: Bucky was constantly worried that in some way or another the Winter Soldier would always be there and would always come out and Bob knows that his darkness lives inside of him and if were to ever lose control of his powers the Void would come back

There are probably more things, but this is all I could think of at the moment

I just think those two are closer than a lot of people realise which is why a lot of Bucky fans are drawn to Bob

[im-a-very-good-lawyer]

For the "Foggy is in witness protection" believers... who else thinks Karen Page is in on it?

While Disney HAS been known to change personalities of their acquired characters before that they justify with a time jump (Luke Skywalker), it just seemed... odd that she wasn't willing to sit with Matt for 5 more minutes, after he asked for it multiple times. She hasn't answered any phone calls. It just... seems like an odd choice.

And script writing could be messy, or the phrasing and acting choices could be intentional. When Karen refuses coffee, Matt says he knows she's lying, and she wipes her faces and turns away from him. She says she came to the trial for Foggy and then stumbles for her next words to say.

And a year is a long time to have to heal in witness protection, but clearly Fisk's injuries took a while to heal if Vanessa is mad at him for how long she was lonely for.

Maybe I'm a clown for thinking Disney and the updated creative team understand the heart of what Daredevil's TV show has been. Maybe I'm a clown for thinking that reshooting episodes 8 and 9 mean anything. But it's not like Karen and Foggy haven't worked together before behind Matt's back. And maybe I just want to hope.

[back-on-my-bucky-bs]

Totally serious Thunderbolts theory:

Sam's busy finding people to add to the Avengers roster while Bucky is being paired up with a team of delinquents, some who mean well more than others.

So in between that and running for fucking Congress, Bucky just calls Sam up like "babe I know you're busy and all but we're so not qualified for this shit pls help" and Sam's so unbothered, laughing over the phone, and is just "good luck babe, kiss kiss, bye." And hangs up.

And Bucky's like "fuck I can't be here" and full mentally checks out going Winter Soldier mode because between Alexei "Red Human Disaster" and John "Gaslight, Guilt Complex Agent" Walker, he hasn't had enough therapy to handle them let alone a bunch of traumatized feral super powered women.

But by the end he adopts them all anyway and then he comes home like "Sam we have kids now, no I know one of them is older than you and the other one is Walker, I don't care they're ours now" and Sam just has to except that they're parents now.

Then Joaquin shows up the next day in a cardboard box that has the words "free puppies" written on it, and Sam tells Bucky they have one more kid to add to their collection.