#ramcoa discourse

[thecircularsystem]

I’m just a touch confused by why people are so frustrated with people “misinterpreting” the phrase “RAMCOA isn’t real” or “RAMCOA is antisemetic.”

Imagine, if you will, someone posted:

Tupperware Isn’t Real

You would… hopefully… understand that this person is an idiot. Obviously, Tupperware is real. You can pick it up, hold it, use it…

But then they go on to say, “Oh, I’m not saying plastic containers aren’t real, I’m saying the term Tupperware is inaccurate!”

You would…. Hopefully… also continue to understand that this person is an idiot.

Now imagine they got salty anytime someone said, “but it’s just a Tupperware?” and made at least 10 posts in one singular month about how Tupperware was actually used by Nazis and how using the term Tupperware for plastic containers is somehow fascism.

…..

We DO understand the ridiculousness, yes?? Please?

[hollowandcoldanddark]

moving away from ramcoa

i think a really basic thing that we dont discuss as a community is the basic logistics of moving away from hyperobscure terms

the thing about ramcoa is that it is a rare and sparse field of study. for anyone to research it to understand it, find the resources one may use to understand and contextualise their experiences, all of that... most of it is going to be under the term of ramcoa. in fact, even more of it will be under the term of ritual abuse.

unlike other term changes like "don't use hc did" (not a common term used within medical literature, not a strong link to the outside world, from what i hear popularised by someone on instagram) or even, "don't use aspergers" (referring to a common term which was being phased out by an active medical community which was continuing to move away from the term, and continues to publish research with austism (previously known as, etc etc), not a closed or sparse section of research)

ramcoa is an entirely different beast in my opinion. ramcoa is the former popularised medical term, in a sparse and partially stamped out research community which, not to be dramatic, does experience direct "attacks" from other external groups, and a lack of public awareness and sometimes legitimacy. even uses of terms such as oea make it difficult for people to do independent research.

its also not a situation where one can contact an author and be like um please update ur language to be non problematic - these people are old now!! they might not work in this field anymore!! they're not going back and updating papers they wrote years ago

as a community, most versions of the term as proposed changes, i believe will never fail the test of - well, why not use it anyway? why call it (random example) AER and then have to look up ritual abuse anyway? why change the name to a new, more obscure acronym?

i think that the legacy of telling people how, through a complex history, ritual abuse is associated with and can be a dogwhistle for antisemitism, will rarely sell a change of term which is used basically just for research and identification.

even if you change the term, people are going to end up calling it ramcoa because thats what the medical paper said. and then we can get angry at them and make infinite new terms. this is like a linguistics issue to be honest its not even moral or community based

[petsemataries]

most people do not define origin as specific alter origin, but the origin of the system as a whole. later split origins don’t matter. a system that formed due to trauma is traumagenic, end of. a single alter who split due to whatever will never define a system’s origin and never has????

says one guy ever. i can call MY system whatever i want whenever i want for whatever reason i want and you can fuck off if you don't like it. there is no "one way" to be plural. there is no singular definition, and telling me, and others to be like "most people", despite the fact i cannot control the origin of my non-willogenic parts, is the same thing -phobes do, end of.

a huge chunk of us have formed due to non-traumagenic sources - hyperfixations, special interests, favorite persons, even physical issues - and a lot of other traumagenic systems are the same, but don't label themselves as such, because of the stigma surrounding endogenic systems. they are misinformed, and believe endogenic = willogenic. the reason "most people" do that, in your words, is because of that. which shouldn't happen! you're feeding into that stigma further and you want it to continue.

and, as a ramcoa survivor, i support willogenic alters and systems too. bite me.

[activewildcard]

asking you not to participate in antisemitism through spreading a conspiracy that bears some resemblance to your experiences when there are other words that also describe those experiences and dont contribute to bigoted beliefs that get people killed is not silencing you for fuck's sake

"yeah i was abused with religion and put under mind control and organized abuse and stuff like that and use ramcoa bc it's tbe best thing to describe my life and my experiences and what happened to me" - me

"YOU'RE A FUCKING ANTISEMITIC YOU HATE JEWISH PEOPLE YOU WANT THEM DEAD YOU'RE A BIGOTED CONSPIRACY THEORIST KILL YOURSELF KILL YOURSELF HERE'S YOUR ADDRESS AND YOUR SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!" - everyone under the fucking sun apparently

you sound insane right now. you realize the idea that ramcoa is a conspiracy theory... is, in itself, ALSO a conspiracy theory, right. not to mention how harmful it is to literally any trauma survivor.

anyways, not to mention, there's literally. nothing on google that links it to antisemitism from what i can see. everything i find is about Qanon, which is entirely unrelated to RAMCOA i feel like? so i dont even know where these claims came from. let me guess, someone said one thing a few months ago and ever since then you all believed it without even typing in a few words into google. shocker (/s).

when you google "satanic panic antisemitism" (because everyone loves to compare ramcoa to that for some reason), only things about Qanon come up. when you look up "ramcoa antisemitism", systemscringe and sophie in wonderland pop up, and im not trusting SYSTEMSCRINGE AND SOPHIE of all fucking things. so yeah. literally no proof to this as far as i can tell.

and don't even bring up the grey faction bc i think they're the ones rhat started this stuff ??? and they (apparently) don't even believe DID is real or something. used them as a source once and got jumped (/nsrs) by 5 people so.

[above-below-sys]

I hate to inform people that moving from policing who can have number names to policing who can have religious names is not, in fact, an improvement in a community with a large number of religiously programmed individuals.

[thecoldestoftakes]

Also. There's already a diagnosis for programmed systems it's OSDD 2?

[shitty-proendo-blackout-posts]

oh What is going on here

[clownp1ercer]

I will never understand people who sit there and say RAMCOA isn’t real. You’re telling me, Ritual Abuse isn’t real. Mind Control isn’t real. Organized abuse isn’t real. All these methods of grooming aren’t real???? Are you serious??? Like you sound fucking stupid genuinely.

[sophieinwonderland]

Why are people still lying about system hopping???

I've already covered this pretty in-depth in the past. If you want to see the full post with links and sources, please visit this page:

Here are the bullet points:

"System travel" has been in use to describe moving between bodies since at least as far back as 2001.

"System hopping" has been recorded as an alternative to this since at least as far back as 2005.

Another system has reported it being in wide use at least around 2007.

The earliest use of system hopping as a RAMCOA term was a Twitter post from April of 2021. There is no evidence of system hopping being used before that point to refer to moving between side systems.

Anti-endos pounced and started using this Tweet as evidence that system hopping is a stolen RAMCOA term.

The creator of that Tweet later deleted it and confirmed that nobody else in the RAMCOA community called that system hopping.

System hopping didn't become a RAMCOA term until a full 16 years after its oldest recorded use in the general plural community.

This is settled history!

STOP SPREADING THIS LIE!

(Also, since anti-endos keep spreading hate and misinformation in inclusive spaces, and this post is directly about DID, this is going into both DID and anti-endo tags. Especially the tags they spread this misinformation in.)

[hollowandcoldanddark]

i see people talk about how ramcoa is like a special term which is meant to make people feel special but i guess its like.

for me, it feels easier for me to talk about. lightens the load. coming out and being like oh i went through sex trafficking physical abuse emotional abuse religious abuse cult indoctrination and abuse isolation torture conditioning brainwashing starvation continued trafficking... etc etc etc etc

like its too much. i find it a lot easier to try to explain it with ramcoa. also god im so sorry jewish people but i dont give a shit if youre like hey this fucking 20 year old when they talk to their 2 close friends uses a term associated with antisemitism. im so exhausted.

i guess its also like theres no term for like. programming mind control at all really. like osdd2 ig. right. like calling it "i was a victim of mind control" is so fucking stupid - no one in the populus is going to associate that with torture.

theres a strange dichotomy of like... people saying that "religious abuse is not ramcoa" and then also "most ramcoa survivors are just survivors of organised abuse like relgious abuse" which is really funny to me. its not my place to decide. theres this one guy i met who basically was like oh our experiences are the same because i was catholic. and its like.... i hope not

its not my problem either. i like looking at the tag to self harm - make myself feel like a piece of shit. but like not to minimise ur shit but also fully to minimise your shit - there are bigger problems righjt. like i dont have the energy to argue about antisemitism. im so tired. im unsafe. who fucking cares.

[necroticgodsmisc]

I wanna make a post about what we went through in the hypnosis community , discord and amino. Shit that got normalised for us from the Age of 14 fucking years old.

But will tumblr believe us? Will we get cruicified because “that’s not how programming works” or “it was online so technically it wasn’t a cult.” Or our favourite- from our own mother “why didn’t you just block and move on?”

Will I experience that if I make a post? That’s what’s I’m afraid about

[radiomogai]

im white so i realize my thoughts on this arent super relevant in some cases, but aside from racial term coining i did want to comment that radqueer terms frequently draw on ableist stereotypes or transphobic ideals. im not like, mad at you or anything, it is in fact your blog, but it is a little disheartening to see terms implying you can transition to basically anything you feel like promoted within the rq community, and giving them a much bigger reach on a generally significantly larger blog is worrying. i did vote "no" in the poll just because like.. idk. i have such deep respect for your work and for archival actions in general, and media preservation should be neutral in most cases so i understand that viewpoint, but I'd honestly prefer if it was perhaps a separate blog or something? i dont have an easy solution to this and im sorry that my thoughts are kinda all over the place. i dont think the entire rq community is inherently evil or anything but i think by-and-large it promotes a lot of questionable acceptance of things like transautism or trans-ED, with some of them going so far as to promote trans-CSA victim or trans-RAMCOA type things, and as someone who has experienced that type of trauma it just sucks a little bit that similar coiners' blogs would presumably be on here. i doubt you'd archive those specific terms but i think my point still stands, because the blogs themselves would be linked back onto here. it's just not really the place for it in MOGAI/LIOM in my opinion, rq community separated (for the most part) from MOGAI for a reason. i respect their space and i dont cast undue judgement or anything as an entire group, but i disagree with consolidating the two in one very public MOGAI space as if xenogenders were comparable to the real life effects rq terms have on people of all walks of life

Appreciate your input as well! Don't have the mental capacity right now to give an in-depth response but do appreciate your opinion.

Started writing a mini-response in the tags though and figured I should put that in the post haha. Will at least say that terms related to sexual violence would not be archived on or near radiomogai. Hard rule we are setting if we do go ahead with this. Would still be archived, but elsewhere. Same on the point of transRAMCOA. Have archived terms related to RAMCOA on here before, those being system terms related to it, so while that would most likely continue, RAMCOA-related terms for non-RAMCOA survivors would not. Finer distinction and guidelines for it can be made when we do not have mist in place of a brain.

Transabled terms as well would likely be something we'd be running polls and asking for input on for where the guidelines around them are, given that it's a topic we've seen a wide variety of takes on. Again, everything will be archived, but not everything will be archived on this blog.

[illudsavants]

everyone is just trying to survive. be kind.

[ 💜 ]

[systemtermz]

I am literally a mc survivor with abuser introjects. I HAVE those persecutors and they nearly drove us to suicide. telling them they can't change or believing they can't is an amazing way to fuck up any chance of healing. do what you need to survive, but understand they did too. people telling them they are as bad as our abuser and nothing else is how you guarantee they'll never trust you or want to change. we're still systems, we're still. people like you literally almost fucking killed us by making us feel like we could never change them. stop killing us and telling us we're hopeless or all our identity is what we were tortured into.

Sir. You do not speak for everyone.

I’m glad you have chances. I’m glad I had a chance!! Hell, I’m fucking up those chances rn responding to you, but I still have chances. I’m glad all your persecutors have chances to change and get better and heal. Genuinely, I’m so happy for you all.

That system requested that term because they DIDNT want to call those alters persecutors for this reason. Because they were programmed to hurt people, to do illegal shit, to kill themselves when away from their abusers, to return to their abusers. Giving them a chance isn’t healing, it can literally get the entire system thrown in jail, killed, or somehow worse.

Hell, I bet those alters have been given a chance, and they took it as a chance to do what they were programmed to do and they have made it clear that they will continue to do that.

Sorry for being rude earlier, but you have got to get it through that skull of yours that bad people exist. Alters who do bad things, who refuse to change, exist. You may have not experienced this, your alters were capable of change, and like I said I’m so happy for you!

We used to have a little who would have let people grope and assault her if it wasn’t for Admin being forced to lock her away and then forced to forget it. And we’re not even a RAMCOA system. She couldn’t heal because she refused to, because that would have meant becoming a different person than everyone wanted her to be. She’s been gone for a while now, and Admin is still fucked up about it, and they don’t even remember doing it.

No one wants to lock alters away. It’s not fun, it makes it harder to heal sometimes, but it’s. The best chance at survival sometimes.

And I’m glad you never had to experience that, again, that your alters had a chance. I hope you have a good day.

Also sorry if this doesn’t make sense, I keep getting pulled in and out of front.

-B0ffy

[ladyimaginarium]

okay so. i just remembered that a really prominent jewish blogger literally said that ramcoa just blatantly doesn't exist under a specific umbrella & basically labels it as a conspiracy theory & literally compares it to pizzagate & qanon. &. as a native jewish ramcoa survivor specifically that's such a vile fucking thing to say bc i KNOW other ramcoa survivors, including indigenous ones. im hesitant to mention the exact url, but it's in the link, but as a reconnecting jew specifically i really looked up to this person & now i feel a sense of betrayal & very dissociated. if you claim to fight for other people & just. claim that a large group of people who are survivors of this are just spreading a conspiracy i have nothing to say to you.

[thecoldestoftakes]

Poking up from the dirt to say how do these "hc did programmed with a script" systems claim to have 1000+ alters and then the script they claim to have doesn't even have that many characters