#state of origin 2017 | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

em1989ts · 7 days ago

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𝑮𝑶𝑳𝑫𝑬𝑵 𝑴𝑬𝑨𝑵 ☀︎ 𝐜𝐡𝐩𝐭. 𝐨𝐧𝐞

robert "bob" reynolds x reader

word count: 3.2k - masterlist - read the series on wattpad - playlist

summary: you had been an avenger ever since their civil war. feeling lost after defeating thanos, losing all your closest friends, val gives you a job, leading to you becoming one of the new avengers. moving into the compound is a time of rebirth, new beginnings, and connection, especially with your new teammate who lives one room over.

author's note: i've wanted to write a classic avengers tower fic since like 2017, so this is me indulging in nostalgia. pretty much every single old marvel fic i've read has a reader with "wanda's powers but purple" so the witch in this story has powers that are golden and magical ooo but i'm writing her to be a more literal represention of witch, mostly based on my personal practice. i've also been working on like four different works this past week so hopefully i can get those done soon too, but for now, enjoy!

The darkness was fading.

The buildings of New York had regained their color, yet Bob had lost his memory.

The moment the current saviors of the city walked through the ripped tarp blocking the street, ready to give Val the beating of her life, was exactly the moment she had meticulously set up for as soon as she witnessed the gang of disposable delinquents unexpectedly gain a standing ovation after saving several citizens.

They were supposed to be depicted as villains, fearsome criminals that her Golden Guardian of Good was supposed to protect the city from.

But that plan failed, and her god had turned on her, so she had to improvise.

“Are we live? Excellent.”

You lifted the tarp with your arm as you walked through its rips, unprepared to face the bright intruding flashes from the many photographers that stood at attention before you all, capturing every movement as you stood next to Yelena and Bob.

He looked excited, surprisingly cheerful for a man whose inner darkness almost destroyed the city and imprisoned everyone in the city in their own shameful traumatic memories.

Besides Bob, every other Thunderbolt had the same skeptical facial expression, waiting for whatever perception of them Val was going to broadcast to the public.

“For years, I’ve been working in secret to develop a new era of protection,” she spoke confidently to the press, “Today, the citizens of the United States needed that protection, and thanks to my hard work, they got it.”

Your brows furrowed, she was unbelievable.

Her grand plan was a complete failure, as you and her other agents came together to form an unanticipated team instead of efficiently killing each other like had originally planned.

Now she was going to take credit for the fact that you all stopped the Void, the consequence of her original heroic concept.

“Ladies and gentlemen,” she began.

“Meet the New Avengers.”

Moving into the New Avengers watchtower wasn’t a hard task, it wasn’t like you owned much to begin with.

Val had provided you with a small apartment in the city when she recruited you fresh from Westview. It was nothing special – one bedroom, one bathroom, a tiny kitchen, and a window.

It wasn’t like you were home much anyways, always being sent around the globe completing tasks, destroying evidence, and eliminating targets.

It was definitely a downgrade. Before, you were living the dream.

One night when you were 17, you turned on the news to see that the Avengers were fighting robots in Sokovia, and noticed they weren’t fighting this battle on their own.

There was a girl, and she was using magic.

You remember almost choking on your dinner as you scrambled for your laptop, doing as much research as you could on this new superhero.

Was she a mutant?

Was she a witch?

Was she like you?

You started writing emails to this girl, Wanda Maximoff, as well as Steve Rogers, and Tony Stark. If they were taking new recruits, you wanted in.

You sent in footage of your powers in action, of course you weren’t actively engaging in battle, but you recorded videos from your bedroom, using your telekinesis to throw around books and crush empty soda cans.

After months with no response, no visit from Tony Stark himself, with offers of a new suit, fame, and fortune, you slowly gave up on your fantasy. College applications were due soon anyway.

A few more months passed, and you noticed the Avengers appearing taking up the news once again, this time surrounding the Sokovia Accords, the death of the King of Wakanda, and the Winter Soldier.

The Avengers were falling apart, and a part of you was glad you never got involved in that mess.

That was until a certain pair of visitors arrived at your door, as you looked through the peephole to find Clint Barton and Wanda Maximoff waiting in your apartment hallway.

Once you let them inside, they quickly stated their business, informing you that if you were going to come with them, it had to be now.

They didn’t explain too much, all you knew was that they needed help getting Captain America’s friend to safety, and in your moment of pure excitement, you agreed.

That moment changed your life forever. Was it for the better? For worse?

Who knows.

After leaving a note for your parents, you were on your way to Germany, with nothing but a spare stealth suit they had brought for you.

For your first fight, you think you did alright, especially against Avengers. It was a good opportunity to test your abilities in action, they allowed you to toss around Black Panther and Black Widow like ragdolls. Although you were caught, and briefly imprisoned in an ocean prison only to be broken free by Captain America himself, you enjoyed your life as a superhero.

The blip was hard, especially after fighting so hard in Wakanda, just to see your friends disappear before you. You stayed with Nat and Steve at the compound, miserable yet alive, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

The surviving heroes stuck together, keeping each other updated on what was going around around the globe, and in Captain Marvel’s case, the galaxy. It was awfully lonely, knowing your parents were probably nonexistent, but their absence made no difference to you. They hadn’t reached out ever since the media had called you one of Captain America’s “war criminals.”

Hope was found once Scott Lang appeared at the doors of the compound, carrying his newfound knowledge of time travel and an imminent hunger to right what had been wrong and avenge all that had been lost. The plan to retrieve the stones from the past had been successful, but not without great loss.

Losing Nat was one of the greatest hardships of your life. She was like a sister, the best role model you could’ve ever asked for, and you were infinitely grateful to have had her in your life.

The battle with Thanos seemed impossible, even with the return of the world’s mightiest heroes, yet with the sacrifice from Tony Stark, Thanos and his army had been defeated.

The initial joy from the victory of the battle and the return of all that had been lost was short lived once you’d realized you had no one. You were alone.

Mostly everyone parted their separate ways. Natasha and Tony were dead. Steve had grown old. Everyone seemed to just go their own ways, leaving you to do the same. The home you had lived in for years had been blown to pieces by Thanos’ ships, so you had to find somewhere to stay until you got things sorted out.

Your first idea was to find your parents, yet it didn’t go well. Once you’d shown up on their doorstep, they reluctantly let you in, sitting down with you in the kitchen.

Surprisingly, they were proud of how you’d saved the universe, but they couldn’t hide their shame of your witchcraft and powers that you had hidden from them all those years. It wasn’t until a little boy with features similar to yours walked in from the living room, that you got up and walked out.

Clearly, they had moved on, restarted their family, leaving you behind.

Your next idea was to find someone who you thought might be feeling just as lonely as you, if not worse.

Wanda Maximoff.

The girl who had given you hope from the very beginning.

You had found her in a state of despair. She was a wreck, emotionally unstable. Her plans to live the American dream with Vision were ripped from them horrendously, leaving her heartbroken and alone.

You accompanied her to the plot of land they had planned to build their dream home, in the suburbs of a perfect little town named Westview. It was obvious she was on the verge of a breakdown, tired of holding herself together, but you hadn’t expected the cinematic creation that would result from her powerful explosion.

Westview became a television set, with Wanda and her newly revived husband Vision as the stars, and you, as a somewhat sentient neighbor.

Her other neighbor, “Agnes”, seemingly appeared out of nowhere, and from the very start you knew she was trouble. Your powers could sense her energy, the dark magic within her, and she knew all about you. Your rivalry on the television show made for good comedic relief, but in reality, it was you defending Wanda from Agatha Harkness and her greedy intentions.

Wanda’s world began to fall apart all around her, with increasingly strange behavior coming from the actors and confusing cameos, that eventually Agatha made her intentions known.

You had tried to take on Agatha, in a behind the scenes fight, but you had never fought another witch before, especially one as skilled in the craft as her. She ended up draining your power from you almost entirely, leaving a dark, emptiness within you.

This was the first time you remember feeling a physical difference in you. Your ability was full of light, energy, happiness – besides your emotions, the state of your being was always fulfilled and radiant, only emphasizing your positive emotions.

However the darkness was new, you could feel it immediately. It manifested everything wrong with your life, every negative feeling that swam through your nervous system. Once Agatha was defeated by Wanda, some of that darkness slipped away as Westview returned to its normal state, yet you were never truly the same.

After her family faded away, Wanda left the scene, running from her crimes. Watching from the curb, surrounded by emergency services and S.W.O.R.D., your eyes glared as they followed Wanda.

Her grief was understandable, you never blamed her for Westview, but leaving you behind like that, really pissed you off.

As you sat there, roughed up in your 2000s episode loungewear, a stylish woman with purple hair and tinted glasses strolled up beside you. With your chin in your palm, leaning on your knees, you stared at her high-heeled boots, waiting for her to say something.

“I’m not sitting on the ground, so if you’d like to stand up so I can talk with you that’d be great.”

You could tell from her tone she was pushy, yet serious so reluctantly, you pushed yourself up off the ground, brushing off your sweatpants and leaning against the military vehicle, awaiting whatever it was she had to say.

“First off, let me just say, your work as an Avenger is remarkable,” she flattered, “Yet there’s no “team” anymore, so I’m going to give you the opportunity to work for me.”

Your brows furrowed, looking at her as if she had just said the Earth was flat.

“Who the hell are you, exactly?”

“Right, I’m Valentina Allegra De Fontaine,” she said as she handed you her card, which you inspected immediately, only to find it blank on both sides.

Before you could ask her what the hell she wanted to hire you, you looked up to find her walking away towards a long black limo.

She didn’t even have to turn around, not even a glance over her shoulder, because you followed her immediately. What else would you have done? Where else would you have gone?

From what you remember, the car ride was quiet, but it was the peace you needed after the fear and uncertainty that encompassed you ever since Thanos.

Val had you completing several shadow ops assignments, gaining information for her, destroying incriminating evidence, anything to keep her in power. Pay was good, and you got to travel the world, but it wasn’t the same as before. The missions you went on were solo, unlike tagging along with Captain America. You hadn’t felt that lonely in forever.

Before, your powers felt like a gift. They were magical and bright, The golden glow represented your youthful pride and happiness in accomplishing your beloved dream. That golden light never shined when working for Val, you felt like it was hidden deep within you, with no need to escape. Instead, you worked with the darkness.

Using the shadowy haze that surrounded your soul, you sucked the lives out of anyone that came between you, and your mission.

It was definitely efficient, and that’s what Val liked about you. You were clean, quick, and successful. When you found out her plan was to get you and her other agents to kill each other, then burn your bodies along with the evidence of the sentry project, maybe a little part of you was hurt. That small, stupid part of you that actually thought she cared, even the tiniest bit, about you.

Now that you and the rest of the Thunderbolts received just the positive attention for saving the citizens of New York, she acted like it was all water under the bridge, and gave you all a new team name and a new home.

Sitting on your new bed, in your new room, looking out your window as the sun set over the New York skyline, you flipped through your journals. One by one, you reminisced on your life ever since you were 17, that teenage girl with a dream.

Skimming the words on every page, noticing the colored inks, the perfect font, the scribbling notes, every page displayed a different time in your life.

In between one of the pages, a small sticky note fell into your lap, containing a small sketch by Steve. It brought you back to the time when you joined Steve and the others in Scotland, just before saving Wanda and Vision from the children of Thanos. Making a mental note, you decided you’d give it to Bucky, knowing he might appreciate a remnant of his friend.

As you took out the next journal from the box on your bed, a knock in your door rang through the room.

Placing the book next to a glowing candle on your new nightstand, you made your way over to your door, somewhat expecting Bucky to be standing at your door. Out of all the Thunderbolts*, you’re closest to him.

Once you pulled open the door, you weren’t expecting to find Robert standing there, one arm wrapped around a small cardboard box, most likely containing all his belongings.

“Hi?”

“Hey, I um-” he brought his hand up to awkwardly rub his face as he began to speak, “The room next to you is open and I, well I just wanted to ask if you wouldn’t mind having a neighbor?”

Before you spoke, you watched his eyes look back into your room, noticing how it had already adopted your personal aesthetic in the mere half hour you’d had to unpack. It smelled like sandalwood and lavender, and he could see smoke swirling through the room, illuminated by the glow of the setting sun.

“Oh,” you thought for a moment. You hadn’t been the closest to Bob, but you didn’t want him to be nervous around you. Yelena had already chosen the room on the other side of you, so it was obvious you didn’t mind having neighbors. He was worried that you wouldn’t want him as your neighbor.

“I don’t mind, Bob,” you assured, bringing his focus back on you, “Really, it’s okay.”

He held eye contact with you for a moment, allowing you to notice just how deep blue his eyes are. It seemed like he was scanning your face to test your sincerity, his small smile letting you know you passed.

“Okay, great,” he grinned, looking down at his feet before he lightheartedly joked, “I promise I won’t snore.”

You smiled a bit as he walked away and entered his new room with a small wave, which you returned before turning back into your own quarters.

You continued to unpack your boxes until late in the night, taking the time to go through all your belongings and intentionally place them in their new designated spots. Once you got to the last box, you dug through its contents and put each away.

The last item that sat in the bottom of the box was your tarot deck, and something told you that now would be a good time to read a card or two. Folding up the cardboard box, you tossed it in a pile with the others before sitting down on the comforter of your new bed.

The flame of the candle burned high, the only thing lighting your room as you gave your deck three knocks, before taking out the cards and shuffling until you were satisfied.

The first card you pulled was Death, which you figured. This was a time for change in your life – a new home with new teammates, a public facing job after years of being in the shadows. In the last couple days your life had been thrown for a loop, and it had begun its rebirth.

Pulling one last card, you wanted to know what the future had in store for you, to narrow down the possibilities of this new life. Fingers skimmed the edges of the cards, back and forth along the deck until they chose the one, and slowly brought it out. You laid it out on your comforter and flipped it over to reveal – two of cups.

Unlike Death, you weren’t expecting this card. You thought maybe you would pull something that would bring wealth or power to mind, but the two of cups?

Looking down at the card, and the two people facing each other, what immediately came to mind was romance and attraction.

Love wasn’t something you ever had in mind. If you were ever asked, you just responded saying you never had time, you were too busy with work to put in the time and effort needed in a relationship.

But the truth was that you were scared – believing if people were attracted to you, it was because of your power, the light was what drew them in. No one could truly love your darkness, no one would understand it, and they would leave.

So, you never let anyone in. Because if you let someone know you, and find a place in your heart, they’d be the first, and you knew their memory would never leave you.

Placing the cards back in the deck, shuffling it absentmindedly, you repackaged them and placed them next to your candle before blowing it out.

The city lights dimly lit your room, but not enough to outweigh the darkness. You buried yourself under the covers, staring up at the ceiling, the cards still occupying your mind.

You never found it difficult to sleep when you were in hotels, staying in a different country practically every other night, but now that you were residing in a permanent location, your mind had to force itself unconscious.

After what seemed like hours, you finally turned to your side and were able to shut your eyes, slowly but surely falling asleep. However, what you didn’t notice were the two white irises across the room, watching you through the darkness.

~~~

#bob reynolds x you #bob thunderbolts #bob reynolds fluff #bob reynolds x reader #bob reynolds #the void #robert reynolds #thunderbolts #the new avengers #lewis pullman #bob reynolds x y/n #bob reynolds fanfic #robert reynolds x you #robert reynolds x reader #the void x reader #sentry x reader

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joemama-2 · 15 days ago

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after the fact

canon to my velvet lies universe.

This was originally going to show up in chap 20, but it was longer than expected and it would’ve made the chapter too long. best read after chapter 17 since it shows reader’s version of this night.

wc: 3.6k

tags/warnings: mentions of miscarriage, pregnancy, angst , dividers by @/cafekitsune

Year: 2017

Satoru admittedly feels like a shitty boyfriend for not answering your barrage of texts. They’re all asking him where he’s at, when he’s coming back, and that you need to talk to him, asap. It’s only been four days since he found you in the bathroom, clutching your stomach with blood-stained bed sheets being held up weakly by you, as if to hide from him the fact.

He still doesn’t know how to properly come to terms with how he felt. First, he was concerned. Very, very concerned. You were bleeding when you shouldn’t have been, cramping in ways that didn’t feel like normal period ones from before, and you threw up.

But then, that small…very small part of him was whispering into his ear that his worries were resolved. That you didn’t have to go through the experience of getting an abortion that might destroy you even more.

And he feels so fucking shitty about that.

What kind of guy tries to look on the bright side of his girlfriend suffering a miscarriage? It takes two to tango, and he had been stupid enough to let this happen. But maybe you felt the same way?

He’s not very sure.

He can’t just exactly ask hey, but at least you just have to deal with some bleeding and cramping now, right?

It’s been honestly a little tense between you both since then, and you still haven’t fully recovered.

He can’t deny the fact that when you broke the news to him, a momentary flash of what your guys’ future could be like flashed in his eyes. You, holding his baby, waiting for him to come home from a long day at work, barefoot on the patio.

But that’s when another emotion flooded his veins.

Fear. How could he—Satoru Gojo—be a father? His own father wasn’t, and still isn’t, even the best to him, and he doesn’t trust himself to even get up to brush his teeth on some days. He’d be a shitty dad, wouldn’t he be? No way you’d want a kid with him.

So finally, all this leads him to his second internal scolding. What kind of boyfriend is getting beers at some slimy bar while his girlfriend is all alone, blowing up his phone?

Hell must already have a seat saved for him.

Lifting the glass of dark liquid to his lips, he sips and leans back on the barstool. Eyes squeezing shut with a frustrated huff leaving his lips once he’s indulged. Why can’t he just man up and go to you? Explain and talk over everything? Why can’t he just comfort you? Truthfully, you’ve been slightly pushing him away, but he needs to try harder.

But he’s not. He’s just…here.

“Cut off, man,” the bartender firmly states once he sees Gojo trying to wave him down for another glass.

Satoru’s mood sours, and he frowns, adjusting the dark glasses on his face. “For what? I’m not even that drunk, dude.”

The bartender wipes down the counter with a rag that’s probably seen better days, giving Satoru a pointed look. “You’re not sitting up straight, and you’ve been mumbling to yourself for ten minutes. That’s enough for me.”

Satoru lets out a dry, humorless laugh. “Thanks for the diagnosis, doc.”

The bartender walks away, leaving Satoru to his own devices, but not before giving him an ice-cold glass of water. He doesn’t take it, eyeing it like it’s poison. But what he does take is the drink beside him. He’s about to bring it to his mouth when a muscular hand comes out to swipe it from him just in time.

Satoru rolls his eyes and looks over, just now noticing the older gentleman. He’s bald, wrinkly skin and a few tattoos on his arm that look slightly faded. He raises a brow at Satoru, bringing his glass closer to himself. “Cut off, remember?”

“He’s not looking.”

Satoru reaches again, and the man pushes his hand. Groaning, Satoru flops down halfway onto the countertop.

“You always this dramatic?” the man asks, voice gravelly with age and too many cigarettes.

Satoru rests his forehead against the sticky wood of the bar. “Only on special occasions.”

“Must be real special to be acting like this.”

“Yeah,” Satoru mutters. “It’s the day I realized I’m a total piece of shit.”

The man snorts. “Takes some self-awareness to admit that. Maybe you’re not all bad.”

Satoru turns his head slightly, cheek still pressed to the counter, and looks at the guy. He notices the gold band on his left ring finger. “How long?” He prompts, pointing at the shiny ring.

The man smiles. “20 years strong now.”

“Long,” Satoru huffs.

“Mhm.”

“Got any secret advice for guys like me?” Satoru rubs mindless circles against the sticky counter.

“Depends,” the man tilts his head. “In deep shit?”

“Kinda.”

“It’s inevitable. Fighting and all that. I’ll tell you this, me and my Edith have fought over many things. Even the simplest of things, like whose turn it is to take a shower first.”

Satoru hums noncommittally, still trapped in the chains of his own ghosts’ whispers. “….doubt any of it is as bad as my situation,” he slurs.

The stranger’s interest is piqued by this drunken teenager’s rambling. He doesn’t want to say that he’s probably wrong, considering Satoru hasn’t lived enough of his life yet to complain about his problems being worse than an older man’s. But he relents. “Well, what did you do?” He sips his drink casually.

Satoru’s eyes close again, feeling a distant sting of tears threatening to let loose. He somehow holds it in. He really shouldn’t be spilling your personal information to some stranger, but a gut feeling urges him to. “…my girlfriend. She…she—um—she just had a…a miscarriage.”

The man stops, eyes widening just a tad before slowly nodding. He sets his glass down onto the counter, letting the silence stay for just a few seconds. Until he gruffs out: “How old?”

“Twenty-one.”

“My wife had hers at twenty-five.”

Satoru’s eyes widened, lifting his head, looking at the stranger like he was a deity. “Y-you…she…oh…”

“Yeah,” the stranger nods. “We were only together for two years at the time.”

“That’s me too!” Satoru exclaims, twisting his body to fully face the stranger. “H-how did you guys….…how did you guys make it through that?” Satoru finishes, voice cracking slightly around the edges.

The man looks down at his glass, not speaking right away. The ice inside clinks against the sides as he swirls it once, slowly. “We almost didn’t,” he finally says. “Grief like that—it doesn’t just go away. It either eats at you, or it glues you together in a way no one else understands.”

Satoru stares, wide-eyed and hungrier than he’s ever felt in his life—not for food, but for answers. For something to anchor him when everything feels like it’s drifting too far.

“She stopped talking to me for weeks,” the man goes on, eyes growing distant. “I didn’t know how to comfort her. Every time I tried, I just said the wrong thing. Hell, sometimes I said nothing at all. Just like you, huh?”

Satoru nods slowly, guilt coating his throat like tar. “Yeah,” he mutters. “Exactly like me.”

“She thought I didn’t care,” the man says. “I was just scared. Of everything. Of losing her, too, especially when she started pulling away.”

“Fuck,” Satoru breathes, head falling into his hands. “That’s exactly what’s happening. She’s pulling away. And I—I’m letting her.”

The man places a steady hand on Satoru’s shoulder. It’s rough, calloused—like a man who’s worked with his hands all his life—but the grip is firm and reassuring.

“Then don’t let her,” he says. “It’s not about having the right words, kid. Sometimes it’s just about being there. Sitting in the dark with them so they don’t feel alone. You don’t have to fix it. You just have to show up.”

Satoru’s throat tightens, his eyes burning again. He nods, a little shakily. “Okay,” he whispers. “Okay, I…I think I can do that.”

The man gives his shoulder one last pat, then picks up his drink again. “You love her?”

Satoru nods. “More than anything.”

“Then go home,” the man says. “Tell her that. And don’t be afraid to cry a little. Hell, I cried like a baby the first time I told Edith what I really felt. And she never let me live it down.”

Satoru huffs a dry laugh, rubbing his red eyes. Gulping when he feels his throat dry and tighten up. “I just…I want to do more than be there for her. I want her to see it through my actions, too.”

“Then start small,” the stranger leans closer. “Edith has a sister who runs support groups for grieving parents after she lost her toddler in a car crash.” The man finishes, voice soft but grounded, “She does ‘em twice a week. Tuesdays and Thursdays. You could bring your girl. Just sit in the back. Listen. You’d be surprised what a little shared pain can do.”

Satoru swallows hard, a shaky breath caught in his chest. The idea of walking into a room and hearing stories like his—stories worse than his—terrifies him. But at the same time, something about it…feels like the first step toward healing. “…She might not wanna go,” he murmurs.

“Then go for her,” the man says simply. “Learn how to be what she needs, even if she can’t say it yet.”

Satoru nods again, slowly this time, as if the words are finally beginning to settle into his bones. He doesn’t even know this man’s name. But something about this encounter—it feels like divine intervention. A message from the universe that he doesn’t have to keep spiraling in silence.

“…What’s your name?” he asks quietly, voice rough with emotion.

The man pauses, looks at him with the faintest smile. “Masaru.”

“Masaru,” Satoru repeats. “Thank you.”

Masaru raises his glass in a silent toast. “Don’t waste too much time feeling sorry for yourself, kid. Regret’s a heavy bastard to carry around. Trust me.”

With that, Masaru finishes his drink, places it down, and nods once before heading for the door—leaving Satoru sitting in the dim light of the bar, blinking through the weight in his chest.

After a long moment, he picks up the glass of water the bartender left him. And for once, he drinks it. Every last drop. Once he’s done, he slaps a few bills on the counter for his tab and rushes out. Running back home while simultaneously clicking away at different articles on his phone, not even bothering with the glasses that fall off his face.

“Afterwards —- Miscarriage”

“The hidden grief of miscarriage”

“After a Miscarriage: Surviving Emotionally”

“Your Feelings and Emotions After a Miscarriage”

“Supporting someone through pregnancy loss”

He’s reading headlines, skimming intros, clicking links like a man possessed. Each paragraph cuts into him, sharp and unfamiliar, but also strangely grounding. Sentences like “There is no right way to grieve” and “Miscarriage can often lead to feelings of isolation, guilt, and numbness” slam into his chest. But it’s the lines about partners that dig the deepest:

“Partners often feel helpless in the aftermath of a miscarriage. Their grief may look different, but it’s real. The best thing they can do is stay, listen, and love without condition.”

Stay.

Listen.

Love without condition.

His thumb hovers over one article for a few seconds longer than the others. It’s titled:

“Sometimes Silence Hurts More Than Words: How to Show Up After Pregnancy Loss.”

He taps it open and walks slower now, soaking up every single line as if it’s gospel. A checklist for redemption. He barely notices how far he’s gone until he’s standing in front of the door to the guesthouse you’re currently in. His hand pauses over the door handle. For a second, he wonders if maybe he should come back in the morning. Maybe you’re asleep. Maybe you don’t want to see him at all.

But then he thinks of Masaru.

Of Edith.

Of the baby that wasn’t.

Of you, curled up in bed, bleeding and alone.

And he opens the door, instantly looking for you. It’s dark and quiet, no sound or trace of you anywhere. He walks inside a little deeper until he gets to your temporary bedroom.

The door is ajar, he carefully pushes it open, and steps inside. You have your back to him, wearing one of his shirts. But even with your back turned, he can see the way your hand hovers just barely over your stomach.

His heart twists.

“Baby…” he whispers, unsure of the emotional state you’re in right now. “Baby, I’m sorry I didn’t answer your texts. I’m really, really sorry.”

Turning your head over your shoulder, you catch a whiff of alcohol, noticing the red tint to his eyes. A scowl forms, and your eyes narrow. “Oh…so that’s what you’ve been doing. Drinking, huh?”

“N-no—” he grimaces, “well, yes. But I’m sober right now. And there’s a lot of things I want to tell you, say, confess, but let me hold you fir—”

“Your mom knows I’m here.”

He pauses his strides toward you, arms falling limply by his sides. “S-She does.”

You say nothing.

“Shit,” he runs a hand through his hair, looking you over. “I'm sorry. Fuck, I didn’t know she’d find out. Did she say anything to you? Do anything?”

When he steps forward again, you step back, keeping your guard up. “A lot. And maybe it’s all true.”

The air between you both feels thick enough to choke on. That single step back—small, instinctive—lands like a blow to his chest. He stops moving, arms still slightly out like he’s half-formed in a gesture to comfort, to reach, to be held accountable. But it’s clear now: you’re not ready for any of that.

“…What did she say?” he asks, quieter this time. Like he’s afraid of the answer.

“I’m not right for you.”

“What?”

“You hide me like I’m your mistake. And maybe….maybe I am. Maybe that’s all I’ll ever be.”

Silence falls like a guillotine.

Satoru visibly reels. You see it in the way his face shifts—like every syllable of what she said scrapes down his spine and leaves him raw. He tries to swallow it down, but it doesn’t go anywhere. “She’s wrong,” he says, voice low, nearly hoarse. “She’s so fucking wrong. And so are you. You’re not a mistake, you’re my life. I love you, everything about you—I love you.”

“Are we wrong?” you ask, still not looking at him.

He flinches. “Yes,” he insists, stepping forward again, more carefully this time. “Yes, you guys are. None of that is true. Not a damn word of it. And I should’ve answered. I should’ve picked up my phone and come straight home when you needed me—”

“Shut up!” You shout, taking a step closer and pushing him weakly by his shoulders. “Just shut up, shut up! I don’t want to hear your excuses.”

Satoru doesn’t fight back against your push; he barely even stumbles. But he doesn’t move closer anymore, staring at you like your words hurt more than your actions. And they do. “Baby, baby…please. I’m sorry. I’m really sorry for not answering your—”

“It’s not just about tonight!” You cut him off, inhaling a shaky wheeze. You’re about to cry. “It’s about—about everything! Everything…”

“What’s everything? Please, talk to me.”

“You did this to me! You did this, you did this, you did this!” Another push.

Your fists hit his chest again—harder this time, more desperate than angry. Like if you could just bruise him enough, it might match the hollow ache inside you. He takes it all. Silent. Still. His chest rising and falling, eyes wide and wet as he lets you unravel in front of him.

“I didn’t ask for this,” you cry, voice cracking like glass. “I didn’t ask for any of this! I didn’t want to be scared and alone and—and—and wondering if something was wrong with me because I couldn’t keep our baby—”

His face crumples, and he tries to speak, but your next words slice the air clean through.

“And I bet you’re so happy too, huh?!”

His eyes widened, furiously shaking his head. “No! No! I’m not happy, I’m not happy about any of this. I hate seeing you in pain, I hate seeing you cry, I hate it! But I want to be here, I’m gonna help you get through this.” He nods in determination, scrambling to pull out his phone and point at the last article he was left on. “I’m learning and I'm gonna learn a lot about miscarriages and grief. And I met someone who knows a woman who does support groups for parental grief. We both c—”

“Five weeks,” you cut him, body trembling with pain, anger, frustration, helplessness. “It’s too early for people to even validate me because the fetus hadn’t developed into an actual baby yet! I don’t even know if I wanted it yet! But even then, I still did something fucking wrong because I can never hold onto good things. I always mess up, my mind, my body, my soul—it’s all shit!”

Your voice breaks on the last word, and suddenly there’s nothing left holding the dam back. Tears fall fast and hot, your whole body trembling from the weight of it all—anger, guilt, grief, shame.

Satoru is frozen for a beat too long. Not because he doesn’t care. But because your pain—so naked and unfiltered—is almost unbearable to witness. He feels like an intruder to something sacred and broken. But then, slowly, he lowers his phone, drops it onto the dresser behind him, and kneels. Not out of some dramatic gesture, not to beg—but just to be smaller, softer, less threatening. To meet you at the level where your pain lives.

He whispers, “Hey, hey, no. Don’t say that about yourself.”

You shake your head wildly, wiping your face with the backs of your hands. “It’s true—”

“It’s not. I won’t let you talk about yourself like that.” His voice cracks, tears beginning to cloud his vision, too. “I don’t care how many weeks it was. I don’t care what anyone says. You lost something, we did. And you’re allowed to feel like the world cracked open because of it. You’re allowed to hurt. You don’t need permission from anyone.”

You look down at him, lip quivering, eyes glassy with disbelief and devastation. “But I failed. My body—”

“You didn’t fail,” he says firmly, his hand finally reaching for yours. He doesn’t grab. Just lets it hover there. Waiting for you to take it, if you want. “Your body survived. And I know you didn’t ask for this. I know we weren’t ready. But that doesn’t make you less. That doesn’t mean you did something wrong.”

You collapse to your knees in front of him. Not because you’ve forgiven him. Not because the pain’s gone. But because your legs can’t hold it all anymore. The guilt, the confusion, the loneliness. And he catches you. Gently. Carefully. Like you’re the most fragile thing he’s ever held. His arms wrap around you—not tight or suffocating. But just enough to let you feel his warmth, his presence, his promise.

“I’m not going anywhere,” he murmurs into your hair, voice wrecked with emotion. “You don’t have to go through this alone. Not anymore.”

You sob into his shoulder, your fists still loosely gathered against his chest. “What if I can’t be okay after this?”

“Then I’ll sit with you in the not-okay,” he says, pressing a shaky kiss to your temple. “For as long as it takes.”

Silence. Stillness.

Then, soft. Broken. Barely audible.

“…I…I think….I just wanted to be a mom.”

It breaks him. Truly.

He hugs tighter with the quiet desperation of a man who has nothing left to lose. You melt deeper into him. Into the chest you’d just hit moments ago, and the arms that feel just a little more solid than the air around you. And for the first time in days, you let yourself fall apart with someone.

Satoru holds your head, cradles it like something precious, and whispers into your hair:

“We’ll get through this. Together. However long it takes. However it hurts. You’re not alone, baby. I’m here. I’m right here.”

And he stays, long after the sobs turn into hiccups, long after the moon is swallowed by dawn.

For the first time, he doesn’t leave.

But even after this night, you didn’t imagine how tumultuous your relationship would grow. That even after his reassurance and hugs and kisses, he too wasn’t entirely confident in his capabilities. But he stayed with you, through everything—quite literally. How long was that supposed ‘not-okay’ stage supposed to last?

Satoru wish he saw Masaru again after that night and tell him how his advice did, but didn’t work either. That him and his girl wouldn’t be going 20 years strong after an event like this. He almost wants to punch him in the face and demand more answers as to how to keep a relationship healthy and strong, and long. But the ultimate truth is, it’s different for every couple. And unfortunately, this couple couldn’t figure out their own way—what worked for them.

And that fucking sucks.

You don’t know if you can hold this part against him anymore; it holds too much weight in your heart. But it follows along, secretly. You wish it would go away and that you and Satoru could just start fresh and new.

And he forever hates himself for letting you down—for not being the man you needed at that time in your lives. He let you get away—he pushed you away. And he spent many sleepless nights, lying awake, holding a tight hand over his mouth to stifle his sobs.

Sure, years had passed, and you both slowly learned to heal. That doesn’t diminish the fact that you forever changed the trajectory of his life.

Maybe your story with Satoru should’ve ended that night. Maybe it would’ve been better to. It would’ve saved you guys a lot of heartbreak and hissed insults that you can never take back.

But it also wouldn’t have given you your bright baby boy, the bright and beautiful personification of your guys’ own way.

306 notes · View notes

the-library-alcove · 2 months ago

Text

Annotated Debate Between Hen Mazzig and Kei Pritsker

Source

Full text and commentary under the cut, original annotations done on Google Docs here, being shared here on tumblr due to some people being unable to see the comments.

Commentators include myself, @strangestructures, and several others.

~~~~

Hen Mazzig: My name is Hen Mazzig. I’m an Israeli author, activist, advocate and founder of the Tel Aviv Institute. I was born and raised in Israel. My family came from Iraq and North Africa and I live in London today with my partner. He is not Jewish. My focus is on Jewish advocacy and fighting antisemitism and hate online in all its forms.

Kei Pritsker: I’m Kei Pritsker. I’m co-director of The Encampments. I’m a journalist with Breakthrough News.

(Here is Kei's Canary Mission profile; https://canarymission.org/individual/Kei_Pritsker)

HM: I was just interested in your background, Kei.

KP: I mean I’m a journalist, I’m a student activist. I was involved in the Palestinian student groups. This is an issue I’ve been involved in heavily for a big period of my life.

(Kei refuses to give any personal background, sticking solely to professional, in contrast to how Hen gives both his personal and professional background in relation to this conflict.

Yeah, I tried to look him up online and there's nothing about him. I could confirm that he's been involved in anti-Israel activism since at least 2017 (source: canary mission), so at least he's right that it's been a big period, not just since oct. 7.)

HM: Got it, OK sorry.

I want to start with a current event; we’ve had a couple in the past few weeks that speak to both your areas of expertise. First with the Mahmoud Khalil arrest and deportation proceedings, and then the Mohsen Mahdawi case more recently. I wonder if each of you can describe how you feel about both cases. Kei, this in your wheelhouse, maybe you can start.

KP: Ya, I mean it was really horrifying to wake up to that news of Mahmoud being arrested. Our team found out like everyone else just on social media or news notifications. Having known him this was particularly devastating. But the way I see this is as something that really reflects the success of the encampments movement and the Palestine movement. The reason this is happening — the reason Mahmoud was arrested — his only crime is speaking out against the genocide and speaking in support of the Palestinian people.

(False; while Trump was doing it in a hamfisted way, there's no question that Mahmoud was in violation of the terms of his green card by supporting terrorist organizations and supporting attacking citizens. Also, Genocide Canard counter is at 1.)

And he is now being abducted.

(This language is conflation between a man held in detention but still able to communicate, and the Israeli hostages being held by Hamas)

The reason for it is Israel knows they’ve lost the narrative, they’ve lost the battle of ideas, they’ve lost the argument, and the encampment movement really proved they’ve lost the next generation.

("Israel controls the US government" Canard--presenting the crackdown as being done at the instigation and direction of the Israeli government, as if Trump wouldn't do it on his own for his own reasons)

Because of this they’ve resorted to the last tool in their toolbox, which is essentially repression, censorship. This is why there’s such a concerted effort from the Trump administration to ban pro-Palestine speech, to ban freedom of expression. I can’t even think of a country you get deported for criticizing in the United States besides Israel.

(Also that they are trying to in some way center the Palestine situation in the USA context. When they say that is only in the USA that there is this "repression" against speaking for Palestine)

So while it was initially very shocking it really seems now this is a concerted effort to criminalize speaking out for Palestine.

(Continued "Israel Controls the US Government" Canard, plus "We're just criticizing the Israeli government!" downplaying of their actions.)

Because the mood and the consciousness in the U.S. has changed so much. There was a poll that came out recently that showed that for the first time in decades American perceptions of Israel are majority negative.

(If it's the poll that's been circulating on tumblr, I looked at the numbers and posted a more detailed analysis (https://www.tumblr.com/strangestructures/782103564186189824/that-is-definitely-concerning-however-the?source=share), and the truth is still that across all age groups, there are more people with a favorable opinion of Israel than a negative one. And a lot of people, especially in the younger cohort (18-24), simply don't care.)

This is because of the work of the pro-Palestine movement and people seeing what Israel is about in the last two years and learning about the history of Zionism. People are starting to wake up to what it really is and I think they’ve lost the narrative and now they’re resorting to abductions, and it’s shameful and disgusting and I think it will blow back in their face.

Hen, what do you make both of what Kei is saying and the actions the administration has taken in recent weeks?

HM: Yeah, no it’s absolutely ridiculous to hear this response from Kei to be honest. I think that using words like abducted — we know what being abducted is; my family members and friends have been abducted on October 7 by Hamas, a terrorist group, that had been celebrated by the same people presented in this film.

(I want to add to this and note how Khalil is getting to write Op-Eds for newspapers, while hostages held by Hamas get used for propaganda videos)

And to speak to us about how the Trump administration is being controlled by Israel — somehow Israel is infiltrating America while with the encampments on college campuses, specifically campuses that have been bankrolled by Qatar, funders of Hamas gave billions of dollars to those American universities and in the last few years we’ve seen the radicalization of these students.

(Kei ignores and don't mention this point. I don't know if is because he knows or because he knows that even mentioning it is going to make him look bad)

While I’m personally not a supporter of Trump or these tactics of taking people and deporting them, I think we should be very mindful of the words that we’re using. And I think [pro-Palestine activists] know what they’re doing. The reason that they’re framing it this way is to equate the students that have spent 18 months making the lives of Jewish students a living hell, that’s why they intentionally exclude from the movie any voice of Jewish students.

[And portraying the Jewish students at the encampments] equates to “we’re not racists, we have some Black folks we can push forward.” Kanye West was quoted as saying that slavery was a choice. Is he a voice for the Black community? Of course not. No one would argue that. But here we are with encampments taking a fringe minority of American Jews that do not represent the American Jewish community which by and large is Zionist. Over 90 percent of American Jews describe a positive feeling toward Israel according to Pew Research.

So this whole, really, charade — it’s a way to mask a lot of hatred and turn it against us, as if we’re to blame for their arrests or attacks on Jewish students who are fearing for their lives. In the encampments you hear calls like “al-Qassam’s next target.” Mahmoud Khalil has links to Hamas. The Instagram page of one of these anti-Israel groups at Columbia activating their page just moments before the attacks on Oct 7. The leader of Iran is sending them praises, Ali Khamenei saying, “I’m so proud of what you’re doing.”

(This, exactly; he's not being deported for "protesting Israel", he's being deported for supporting terrorists.

Also add that when is convenient they ignore that they received Iran's support. They probably try to clean themselves as an effort of making propaganda against them.)

I mean I would be ashamed. I would not be saying this is a success. I don’t even know how they can hold both arguments in their heads, to say “we are being silenced ” while we’re seeing this everywhere in the media, from The New York Times to CNN to BBC, everyone is covering it as if it’s the only conflict that ever happened in the world, as if it’s the only war, while in Sudan or in Darfur — I don’t want to get into whataboutism so I won’t even name the countries that are having far worse human rights violations that are getting zero attention.

So I think the question here is why are we talking about those students that have used hate speech against Jews specifically for over 18 months as being the targets but not speaking of actual victims of deportation? Why are we talking about privileged students at Columbia that can afford hundreds of thousands of dollars to attend those universities and they’re becoming the victim? It’s very bizarre to me.

Kei, what do you make of Hen’s assertion that in your movie pro-Israel Jewish voices were not platformed, and that conversely some of the backgrounds of pro-Palestinian activists were played down?

KP: Hen, did you watch our film?

HM: Absolutely.

KP: Yeah I mean so there’s a whole scene dedicated to the pro-Israel presence at these encampments and how these pro-Israel students would go up to the encampments and tell people “you should be raped, I hope you’re raped,” “you should be killed, if you went to Gaza you’d be killed—

(So no actual reporting on pro-Israel Jews, no discussion, just one scene of them shouting at the encampments. Though I do admit this went too far.)

HM [sarcastically]: Raped? Why would they use this example?

KP: —for being gay.” There was also this lynch mob, the pro-Israel lynch mob that descended on UCLA and actually dragged students out of the encampments and beat them bloody and also fired fireworks into the encampments, which very well can kill people. You know, we did show both sides.

("Show both sides" = "cherry pick one example")

We showed what pro-Israel students said to the pro-Palestine side and we also showed the non-Zionist pro-Palestine Jewish students as well because quite frankly the media coverage you’re talking about — Hen you said the media coverage of the encampments was wall-to-wall coverage. You’re right but the coverage was 100 percent slanted in favor of Israel.

(Bullshit; media biases have been consistently in favor of Hamas on the Left. Also, "Jews control the media" canard.)

All the coverage was talking about alleged antisemitism, people being attacked and “oh my god it’s these dens of violence.”

(Supposedly the fact that there is a reporting in antisemitism that there is in the encampments it make is automatically pro-Israel because is against the movement. This is a false equivalence.)

Not only was there no truth to that, not only was there no video of that shown which, by the way, in the October 8 film there’s no video or evidence shown of any Jewish students being attacked.

(Funny, I've seen plenty of videos of people from these encampments attacking Jews, threatening them, or otherwise engaging in violence--typically while having their faces covered.

There's also the whole "not letting jews get to class" by putting the encampments in the way thing. Not sure to what extent blocking someone's path counts as violence, but...)

The evidence they put forward of antisemitism was people saying “Free Palestine” or “From the River to the Sea.” Yes the media coverage was wall to wall — obsessing over antisemitism that didn’t exist.

(Jews don't get to define antisemitism canard, plus the whole denial of a hostile environment.)

The purpose of putting our film out was to balance the unfair coverage of the media — which by the way was coming from people who never stepped foot in an encampment. I was there, I lived in the Columbia encampment for 12 days. Hen, the reason I live in the United States is because on my father’s side my grandparents were kicked out of Ukraine because of antisemitic pogroms.

(See, this would have been something to mention back at the start, Kei. But your choice of words are interesting, because it makes it very clear that you weren't raised as a Jew, and the closest Jewish connection you can claim is two generations back.)

If I saw real antisemitism there I would have left, I would have covered it, I would have said something about it. I didn’t see it at all.

(This isn't Real antisemitism Canard)

What we wanted to cover was the anti-Zionist Jewish students, which is a growing phenomenon, thousands, tens of thousands, millions of young Jews in the United States

(eyeroll There aren't "millions of young Jews" in the entire world, just as a matter of demographics. Unless you're somehow claiming that every Jew under 30 is an "antizionist", then mathematically can't be, and that's before we even get into the fact that the number of antizionist Jews is somewhere in the ballpark of at most one million Jews. at most, being under ten percent of fifteen million people. So this is the "Silent Moral Majority" logical fallacy.

They also seem to not realize that when centering in the anti-Zionist jews they are not showing a jewish perspective because the other parts of the group, the ones that don't have an opinion or are zionist, are not considered for the film and also banned from the encampments.)

are realizing their Judaism doesn’t have to be tied to Jewish ultranationalism,

(Redefining zionism canard)

or a Jewish ethnostate

(ethnostate canard)

that kills people, that bombs hospitals, that bombs schools

(falling for Hamas' policy of why they use human shields the way they do)

and says that Palestinians have no right to live in their country of origin.

(Generalizing the opinions of the Israeli far-right as being the common one from the in all Israelis)

Jews are reacting to that en masse. So that’s my goal. To balance out the narrative which was completely skewed by the mainstream media.

("Jews control the media" canard)

We put something out and let the students speak for themselves.

Hen, Kei is making the point that there was a lot of vilification happening of these students, whether from the media or elected officials. What would your response to that be? And particularly in terms of Jewish protesters, we see in the film scenes of Jewish students who are actively practicing their Judaism in the encampments,

(I'm sure they exist, but I also can't help but think about the JVP "seder plate" and "sukkah". In general, the way Judaism is practiced in the camp feels very performative, and in many cases it's quite noticeable that these are people for whom practicing Judaism is unusual, either because they are disconnected from their community or because they are not actually Jews.)

and who are making a case for being Jewish without the state of Israel. How should we be looking at them in your view?

HM: Ya. I mean there are anti-Zionist Jews that exist in the world. For some reason they receive the majority of the representation in this film. That is my issue. The majority of American Jews are Zionists and you can add another seven million Jews in Israel. So you can say it’s a “growing phenomenon” but there are a lot of “growing phenomena” that are still very small and not representative. It’s like saying Caitlyn Jenner speaks for all trans women. No one would make this argument but here we are able to tokenize a minority, a fringe community, and weaponize it against us. It’s not because they care about Jews and wants Jews to be represented. It’s that they hate us so much that they’re doing this and gaslighting us. I’m sorry I’m getting passionate but it’s really I feel like they’re living in a different universe. I’ve seen the videos on these campuses — not the encampments because for some reason I’m not allowed there — but I’ve seen the violence in the videos of these young Jewish students that send them to me and they’re afraid for their safety. They kidnapped a janitor that was not even Jewish in Columbia.

(This is ignored by Kei and doesn't try to refute it.)

For anyone to say there was not antisemitism in the encampments is completely ludicrous. They weren’t saying support Palestine, they were calling for support for Hamas.

Even the October 8 film that Kei was mentioning there were clips of protesters saying they were Hamas, a terrorist organization that brutalized and killed over 1,000 Israelis on October 7 — kidnapped, killed babies, raped people. That’s why a lot of Jewish students were so upset and were calling out the rape of young girls that came back from Hamas captivity and testified about rape. We have recorded testimony of rape from a former hostage, Amit Soussana, and instead of engaging with that she was gaslighted and told she was lying. I’m sure that’s where those comments came from about rape. They are terrible comments. But I also think we need to recognize the pain Jewish students are going through. So if it’s true that someone said that someone should be raped, and I don’t know if it really happened, but if it happened I think it’s horrible and I also think it’s horrible to tell Jewish women they weren’t raped, and to deny it and say that Jews aren’t in danger when their dorms are being vandalized and the chants of “Zionists Get Out” when we know the majority of Jews are Zionists. How do you expect them to feel? Most Jews believe in Israel’s right to exist — that’s what Zionism is. So this chant is coded hate against Jews.

Kei, you’re privileged enough not to feel intimidated, good for you. The majority of Jewish students that I know and have spoken to, the majority of Jews in America, have a completely different experience than you. So it’s great you’re able to be a part of a tiny, tiny piece of the Jewish community and you take this and put your energy into presenting something but it’s just not the truth and it’s not reality and it’s completely whitewashing the violence and the hate that has been documented over and over again. You can see it anywhere, anyone can Google it, I don’t even need to cite it because there’s so much of it.

KP: if you’re saying there was violence that took place, tell me what happened.

(Hen gave specific citations and examples, so this qualifies as a goalpost move. "No violence occurred." "Yes it did, here are some specific examples." "Give me more examples.")

HM: Oh you think if you put a sign that says “al-Qassam’s next target” is that an issue for you or is that something legitimate? Is that a call for violence or not?

KP: Sorry, well you said someone was attacked. Who got attacked?

HM: I’ll find you some — I mean everyone can Google all of those cases but yeah there were Jewish students that were attacked. In Los Angeles I remember the bloody face of the student that was attacked.

KP: Yeah those were students in the Palestine encampment. It’s in our film; did you watch our film? Those students in the Palestine encampment that were ripped out and beaten by a Zionist mob and they fired fireworks into the UCLA encampments.

(Double standard of the violence only committed against the encampment are the ones that should be critize.)

That was pro-Israel violence. Those were pro-Israel people that beat up pro-Palestinian students. Who were the Jewish students who were attacked again?

HM: Do you think that calling to kill Jewish students is ok? That’s not attack, that’s not violence for you?

KP: I don’t agree with it. But it’s speech. It’s not violence.

(This is coming from the same ideology that views misgendering someone as an act of violence, but apparently saying someone is a terrorist group's next target is just "free speech". Please note the parallel with the same sort of behavior on the Right.)

HM: Oh it’s speech? To call someone to be killed is speech Kei? Are you serious?

KP: I don’t agree with it. But you said someone was attacked.

HM: I’m sending links, don’t worry, I’m sending links. Here you go. [Links appear in chat.] This is one link to an incident with two Jewish students at DePaul. Don’t worry I’ll get you all the links and all the sources.

If I can distill what you both are saying a little. There seemed to be incidents that everyone here would agree are troubling. Telling a Jewish student they’re al-Qassam’s next target or to go back to Poland is not the kind of speech I think we can all agree should be used. Kei I guess the question as I hear it from Hen is whether you feel this was the norm, the culture, or this was anomalous or outside the encampment.

KP: So that’s exactly what I’m saying. Hen is kind of proving my point with the articles he’s sending. These articles are not from the encampments. I’m not speaking for every single person that has ever said “Free Palestine” in their life. I’m just saying the attacks he’s alleged weren’t attacks that took place at the encampments. [Looks at chat]. I mean you’re just spamming—

(Goalpost move; "Show me violence" shows violence "these cases aren't valid because I have moved the goalposts, and you're spamming anyway, because these aren't valid evidence since I've moved the goalpost."

The goal post moved is the one of Violence on the Campus to violence in the encampments. Kei or he didn't remembered Hen point or he didn't heard it)

HM: Sorry, I’m sending too many examples of attacks on Jews.

KP: No, I mean you said a Jewish student was attacked.

HM: I said Jewish students were attacked. There were attacks of Jewish students in their dorms, there was an example of Jews in California attacked outside a synagogue. You say it wasn’t part of the encampment, it’s hard to identify when they have masks on. But this type of spirit is the one that is leading to violence against Jews. if you want to tell me that Jews were not attacked then we have a different issue and I mean you live in a different reality.

KP: So again what I’m saying is there were not attacks on Jewish students in encampments and none of these [links] are examples of that.

("I wonder why there are no attacks on a minority in a space that isn't allowed inside of it")

HM: Because they weren’t allowed in.

KP: And moreover there’s ample evidence of pro-Israel students attacking the encampments. I’m not speaking for every single protest that there was no bad conduct. I think we can all agree that anyone being attacked — that violence is not acceptable, that we shouldn’t be attacking people for their opinions. What I’m saying is that someone saying “from the river to the sea” — it’s in our film, a whistleblower who worked for Columbia and logged these cases of alleged antisemitism and a lot of it was people saying that or wearing a keffiyeh to class.

("Tu quque" fallacy, goalpost move, and several other fallacies--"there isn't any violence on his side, but even if there is, the Zionists do it too! And besides, there hasn't been any violence inside of the encampments, and any examples of violence outside are downplayed and presented as "alleged antisemitism" or people chanting slogans or wearing a keffiyah, so the real violence is coming from the Zionists!")

These are not antisemitic things, these are people calling for an end to a 75-year occupation and humans rights abuses that have been condemned worldwide.

("Israel itself is illegitimate" canard)

It’s legitimate speech against — ironically — an actual violent occupation that’s happening in Palestine.

Like that’s the thing that gets me — everyone keeps talking about “Jewish students feel unsafe because they see flags waving.”

(I mean, given the behavior they regularly see from people carrying these flags, yeah, it makes sense. I also feel concerned when I see a Palestinian flag waving these days, and I'm not even Jewish!

Also says a lot, because there have been repeated instances of people aligned with Kai saying that the Israeli flag makes Palestinians feel "unsafe". So rules for thee but not for me, etc.

Oh yeah, didn't think about that. The reaction to the Israeli flag is a good example, for me, of the "Israel is ontologically evil" thing.)

Meanwhile the students are protesting an actual situation where entire cities are being wiped off the face of the earth.

(Exaggeration, and also falling for Hamas' human shields policy again)

Hen you have yet to say anything about that fact — you talk about the students on these campuses as privileged or whatever or people feeling unsafe walking to their dorms, but what about the fact that Israel has destroyed every single university in Gaza?

(Stripping context of this, along with the other accusations, to demonize Israel, instead of acknowledging that the reason for the destruction is because Hamas uses civilian infrastructure as shields. But stated like this, it's this narrative that Israel just blows up hospitals, schools, and other civilian infrastructure just because they can out of simple cruelty, instead of "they have to because terrorists are using them as shields")

That’s what our film is about.

(I mean, as far as I understand the film is not about Gaza directly, but about anti-Israel activism at American universities, which is exactly what the discussion has been about. So yeah, definitely moving the goalposts.)

What do you have to say about that? What do you have to say about the safety of the Palestinian students?

HM: Ya I’ll speak about this in a second. I just want to point out that i did not say there were peaceful signs that triggered Jewish students. It was a student holding a sign that said “al-Qassam’s next target” with an arrow pointing to the Jewish student. Of course there was no violence in the encampments — the encampments were closed to Jewish students—

KP: —No that’s not true, there were Jewish students in the Columbia encampment in our film—

("We have tokens that we trot out to defend ourselves against accusations of bigotry!")

HM: —if i can finish my sentence. They were closed for Jewish students that would not sign off and say that they hate half of the world’s Jewish population in Israel.

(Kei ignores and doesn't engage in this part even to deny it. Also he ignores that a member of a minority is expressing how he is perceiving those attacks. That is a double standard.)

If they’re not going to say it they’re not going to get in. That’s why the attacks didn’t happen in the encampments — because there was no one to challenge [organizers]. They closed them down and made sure it would be a sterile area for Jews — not all Jews, the 90 percent of Jews that are Zionists in America. And for those students in the encampments — I mean I heard those testimonies of them not having humanitarian aid or getting enough food and I found it a bit bizarre. For someone who is advocating for peace for both Israelis and Palestinians and has been for years now, as someone who spent five years as a humanitarian officer working on building hospitals in Gaza and the West Bank and Hebron and Ramallah and building schools for Palestinians, it’s been part of my work so I’m deeply committed to promoting peace through building bridges this way. The situation in Gaza is horrific, it’s absolutely horrific. It’s been horrific since October 7 when the world was silent about what happened and it’s been horrific since then.

You can quote Anthony Blinken saying that the protests around the world are part of what emboldened Hamas. Hamas continues to hold hostages, continues to oppress Palestinians in Gaza, and while according to what Kei is describing is one of the worst situations ever and yet they still refuse to release the hostages, they still refuse to end it. You know if they released the hostages there would not be justification to continue this war; this war would be over. We haven’t heard anyone in the encampments actually say this. “Why don’t you call for the release of the hostages,” someone asked them. They said “well, you know it goes without saying.” But everything else you need to say and this fact you conveniently ignore?

If the hostages would be released the war would be over. Women have been raped in Gaza by Hamas and they haven’t said a word about it. Well they have said a word about it — they said you shouldn’t believe those Israeli women and said that those babies deserve to be killed because they live in Israel. While ignoring far worse human rights violations and getting praised from the Supreme Leader of Iran, one of the most brutal countries in the world for gay people. But they haven’t protested for those gay people, for gay Iranians, they haven’t said a word about them. They have an issue with Israel because according to what Kei is saying it’s an ethnostate. Show me another country in the Middle East that isn’t an ethnostate. But what type of ethnicity are we talking about? It is the Jewish one or the Arab one? My family is from Iraq and Tunisia, we have the same ethnicity.

One last thing — this movie would have much more credibility if they didn’t have someone like Macklemore producing it. Someone who engaged in antisemitism and wore a Jewish nose and had Jewface on at a concert and he took up the Palestinian cause and is producing movies. Just very interesting why you’d be OK with someone that engaged in antisemitism to be the face of this movie. Would you be OK with someone that engaged in racism to be the face of a movie about the Black community?

KP: What’s this Macklemore issue?

(Out of all the things Hen said, Kei only concentrates on the one that affects him personally.)

HM: Why, it’s not a part of your film?

KP: I don’t know, what’s your issue with Macklemore?

HM: I’m asking if it’s a part of your film.

KP: If what’s a part of my film?

If Macklemore produced the film. He was an ep, yes?

KP: Ya he’s the executive producer.

HM: Yeah, so he has been criticized by the Jewish community for wearing a caricature of a Jewish nose onstage and Jewish beard and engaging in antisemitism to the point that he had to issue a public apology [in 2014] for what he did on stage in front of thousands of people.

KP: So I mean I actually didn’t know about this and just looked it up briefly and it looks like he apologized for it. It sounds like he made a mistake and I believe in people’s capacity to grow and apologize. As long as I’ve known him I’ve not gotten the sense he has an antisemitic bone in his body.

(And who are you that gets to decide that, Kei, as someone who is apparently outside of the Jewish community?)

He’s always talking to Jews and he’s been very outspoken about the issue of Palestine, that’s why we brought him on. Because he was someone who was outspoken after the genocide

(Genocide canard counter 2)

began, at great risk to his own career.

(I feel like the people defending Israel are at greater risk of being ostracized in creative communities, which destroys careers. But there were a few cases of people going too far and losing their jobs, so now anyone who "supports Palestine" is a potential martyr. And that's what they want to be, martyrs, because it puts them front and center and shows what good people they are.

Is this a form of getting the consequences out of proportion and center more in the "persecution" of the Pro-Palestine side than in the real numbers?)

So that’s why we chose him, and you know I can’t speak to anyone’s past but it sounds like—

HM: I’m sorry, I’m sorry to interrupt it’s just really important that we point it out, Macklemore wore a long nose onstage with a Hasidic outfit and marked the Jewish community. This is directly leading to violence against Jews and we know that. Kei be honest, would you accept someone that used blackface?

KP: No, no of course not. But it looks like he apologized.

(You don't even know the details, but "it looks like he apologized" is enough. Great, I can do anything I want as long as I give a token apology!)

HM: Would you accept someone if they apologized, would you take them as a producer, if someone used blackface?

KP: I mean again, some people have the capacity to change. And if he knows he did something wrong then that’s OK. I wasn’t aware of it.

(Gotta love the double standard. "Blackface is verboten but Jewface is okay if they've changed.")

If I can, I think the subtext of Hen’s question here if I’m understanding correctly is whether having Macklemore on the film coupled with the lack of hostage emphasis, whether that adds up to an antisemitic strain and not just an anti-Zionist strain, is that what you mean Hen?

KP: I just think this idea if he made a mistake and he apologized and Hen you’re making him out to be this raging antisemite.

(Again, who are you to say that he isn't? You're not Jewish, Kei.)

[On the hostages], there are Palestinian hostages. Israel imprisons tens of thousands of Palestinians every year — administratively detains them without charges. Children as young as 12 for throwing rocks at armed vehicles. I think if we’re talking about hostages we should talk about releasing hostages on all sides.

(So... acts of violence are okay, so long as the targets can shoot back, eh?

This is a double standard that or the Israeli are capable of defend themselves so they are valid targets?)

I mean I don’t understand the implication, you’re saying the students are antisemitic for not talking about Israel hostages but it would never be asked of the pro-Israel side to talk about the 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons.

(It's interesting how just a few lines ago, "Israel is imprisoning tens of thousands of Palestinians every year for no reason", then gives a reason, and then says that there's only ten thousand. What happened to the previous years' batches? I'm bringing this up not just to point out Kei's routine goalpost moving, but also to point out that he also routinely exaggerates and inflates numbers, percentages, and groups as part of appeals to emotion, while, in contrast, Hen gives specific details, which are then ignored)

We’re not asking Hen to justify these things. I don’t know why the students are being made to speak about 200 Israeli hostages.

("See, they don't count, because they're not as human as Palestinians, and we don't have consistent principles that say that any hostages are bad. And I think that people kidnapped from their beds and babies are morally equivalent to people who are assaulting others with intent to injure or kill."

Also, I'm pretty sure that if I had the choice, I'd rather spend a year as a prisoner in Israel than a month as a hostage in Palestine. A prisoner and a hostage are not the same thing!)

Hen what would you say to that?

HM: Just to clarify, the 10,000 Palestinian prisoners — hostages, as he calls them — they have committed crimes and are held in Israeli prisons, right? And they get family visits by the International Committee of the Red Cross. I’ve actually facilitated many of those visits. And the ICRC goes and makes sure they’re being treated well. In fact in the latest hostage release eight Palestinian prisoners refused to go back to Gaza because they’ve enjoyed their treatment in these prisons more than they—

KP: That’s absurd.

("I haven't heard about it so it can't be true.")

HM: — that’s not a lot. But it’s a reminder they’re not hostages and to frame them this way is just meant to do one thing and that’s to —

KP: Sorry, I think they probably didn’t want to go back because Israel destroyed Gaza.

(Calls it absurd and then tries to reinterpret it in his favor.)

HM: Interesting, so they’d rather stay a hostage? No Israel hostage wanted to stay in the tunnels. That’s the difference.

KP: Yes, because Israel is the one responsible for killing many of the hostages.

(Ah yes, the "Israel kills it owns people" canard.)

If Netanyahu and Israel cared so much about the hostages they wouldn’t be carpet-bombing the place where the hostages are being held.

("Carpet bombing" canard. If Israel was actually carpet bombing the Strip, the death toll would be orders of magnitude higher.)

HM: Kei, have you been to Gaza?

KP: What?

HM: Have you been to Gaza? Have you been to a war in your life?

KP: No but I don’t need to go to Gaza—

("The information I've vaguely absorbed is enough for me to know everything.")

HM: So don’t say people are being killed [by Israelis]. You know each time a hostage has been killed it’s a tragedy that crushes all of us. And also civilians. Any civilians dying in this war. It’s horrific to all of us. But for you to use that, to weaponize it against me to say “your army kills hostages.”

KP: How am I weaponizing?

HM: Those hostages should not have been kidnapped by Hamas. Those hostages should not have been taken from their beds by Hamas and held in tunnels and babies should not have been kidnapped from their beds with their mothers and the women should not have been taken from her bed and raped in the Gaza tunnels. The fact that you don’t speak about it is the issue when you focus on Gaza.

KP: So here’s the reality, and it’s something the protesters have been trying to point out, that this didn’t start on October 7.

(Trying to downplay the atrocity of the 7/10 with the crimes of Israel from before as that justifies it.)

HM: When did it start? When my family was forced out of Iraq in 1941? When?

KP: I mean you can go back 100 years to the First Zionist Congress. You could go back even further.

HM: So when?

KP: So the one thing I want to point out is the premise of your film is this whole war, this genocide,

(Genocide canard counter 3)

started on October 7, on October 8.

(which is interesting, because Israel didn't respond militarily inside the Strip for weeks afterward. The only response on those days were from people like Kai, celebrating and throwing parties. Remember that one professor who said, on October 15th, that the attack was exhilarating and that anyone who disagreed wasn't human?)

But the genocide in Gaza started in 2007 when Israel imposed a full naval, ground and air blockade on Gaza.

(So, eighteen years of genocide, in which time the population tripled? Can I trade? I'll exchange 4 years of genocide with a 90% death rate for 18 years where the population balloons!)

HM: They have a border with Egypt.

KP: Let me finish.

HM: They have a border with Egypt. How did Israel enforce a blockade? Because Israel is supposed to be better? Oh, so you hold Israel accountable but not Egypt.

KP: No I criticize Egypt.

HM: Oh have you protested? I haven’t seen a single sign about Egypt, not even one. Not even in your film.

KP: Because the film wasn’t about the protests.

(Double standard with "we criticize Egypt also" but our main concern is Israel.)

HM: Oh it was about Israel.

KP: We’re absolutely critical of the Egyptian government. But hold on let me finish. In 2007 Israel imposed a full blockade of the Gaza Strip, controlling everything that goes in and out.

(Yes, because Hamas started using the Strip as a base to attack Israel with, using anything they could get their hands on.)

This policy has been described as being akin to an open-air concentration camp, and not for no reason.

(Holocaust Inversion.

I always wonder since when this is a open concentration camp and how are they supposed to be being exterminated, by dying of hunger or by the hand of Hamas?)

There was an Israeli minister of the Knesset who once joked that Israel is putting the Gazans on a diet, and what he was referring to was that Israel controls the flow of food into Gaza so much so that they can actually calculate the caloric intake of the people there.

(I find it telling that this speech is worthy of condemnation (and it is) but telling someone that they're the next murder target of a terrorist organization is "free speech".

Double standard also because this is used without even considering the time when it was said, but when someone points out the "Curse upon the Jews" of Hamas this considered outdated.)

The genocide in Gaza started long before October 7.

(Genocide canard counter 5)

There was a UN report written in 2018 saying that Gaza would be uninhabitable by 2020. Before October 7, 95 percent of the water in Gaza was unfit for human consumption; the average Palestinian in Gaza got four hours of electricity.

(Gee, I wonder why? Is it because Hamas trashed all of the infrastructure in order to repurpose it into rockets? Oh wait, it is!

Also, I still don't understand why Israel is supposed to be responsible for water and electricity in Gaza, a region they completely left, despite the amount of humanitarian aid Gaza gets.

Because these people think that Gaza is an "open-air concentration camp" and is thus under Israel's complete panopticon and control.)

If you put people in an open-air concentration camp why should we be surprised they try to break out?

(That wasn't trying to break out, that was a killing spree.

Says a lot about their mindset, doesn't it?

They want to clean this saying that a good chunk of the hostages were killed by Israel and that the members of Hamas that really killed someone are a minority, downplaying it.)

Just to quickly clarify, Hen was not involved in the film October 8; there may be some confusion because Debra Messing who’s on his show was an executive producer. But to amplify Kei’s point, Hen, the idea from pro-Palestinian activists that this didn’t start on October 7 but long before — some say 1967 [when Israel captured territory and borders were redrawn] or 1948 — and October 7 was not a beginning but a culmination, how do you respond to that?

KP: This is Israel’s policy and of course collective punishment is a crime against humanity. Regardless of what you think about Hamas or what their role is, to starve two million people because they had an election [in 2007] and elected a government you don’t like is a crime against humanity.

(Good thing that, according to multiple sources, including the UN, there was never famine conditions inside the Strip!)

HM: That we “don’t like.” Do you think Hamas was elected democratically? Come on.

KP: They were. There were international observers that went there and oversaw the election, whether you like it or not is not really the question.

(It was only an election in all the time that Hamas has been in power. And then they said it has been Israel fault that Hamas has been in power this long.)

HM: That’s why there’s a war. Because we don’t like an election.

KP: My point if you leave people in a condition like that, why are we acting so shocked when they decide to break out?

(No, because they keep sending rockets to Israel.

Even before this, the rockets were just the status quo, like the weather. The war was because Hamas invaded and went on a mass murder campaign.)

Were they supposed to just sit there and accept that and say “this is my new lot in life, I’m just going to live this way, I’m never going to question it, I’m never going to do anything about it? We’re just supposed to sit there and take it?”

(Double standard, Palestine can do anything they want in retaliation but the rockets that the Israeli receive they should do nothing.)

HM: No, so we’re supposed to sit there and take it when 1,200 people are being killed—

KP: You’re collectively punishing—

HM: That’s what you’re saying though. You’re saying that we should take it.

KP: You’re collectively punishing everyone in Gaza.

HM: You’re saying we should take it, that we should allow them, because we don’t understand what it’s like to have borders, and if you have borders you should be allowed to go and take hostages.

KP: You are collectively punishing the people of Gaza for a crime they didn’t commit. Literally for having an election.

(Ignoring Hen point and doubling down in his version that what happened in 7/10 should not have formed a reaction like that and downplaying that is because they don't like Hamas)

HM: No. No, the war is not punishment. There’s a war because of October 7. Because of the massacre of 1,200 people in one day.

KP: No there’s a war because Israel is enforcing a genocidal blockade policy in Gaza.

(Genocide canard count 6)

HM: You are supporting 1,200 people being killed and a baby being choked to death—

KP: You’re supporting 200,000 people being killed—

(Even Hamas isn't claiming that number; why do you want another 150,000 people dead, Kei?)

Guys, I understand the passion on both sides. If we can—

HM: I have passion because I’m connected to it. It’s my family that is on the line. It’s my friends that have been killed. That’s why I’m passionate. I’m not sure—

KP: It doesn’t matter if it’s your family.

(At this point, I think that Kai has made it abundantly clear where he stands--and where his ideology stands--regarding the worth of Jewish lives to them. I.e. Nothing.

Also being indirectly showing support to Hamas even if is contradictory.)

HM: It doesn’t matter if it’s my family?! Are you insane? No, I’m sorry Steve, I can’t—

OK, Hen, guys, let’s bring it back — I think we all feel understandably heated, we all have stakes in this, and, again, passion. I appreciate that. Let’s bring it back to some U.S. policy. [Long pause.] So we talked a lot about the Khalil and other incidents but there’s obviously a lot going on on campuses now. We’re seeing the Trump administration take action against Harvard and Columbia in the name of antisemitism, and I want to ask both of you just in terms of this policy now, how should we feel about it? Whether it will do any good? Because I think that’s what we can all hope for is to live more peacefully, I think we can all agree with that. Hen why don’t you start and talk a little bit about what you think of this approach.

HM: I need a minute. So let him go first [goes camera-off].

KP: So again, this policy is reflective of the larger crisis here for the Trump administration, for the military-industrial complex, for Zionism, for Israel, which is that they have lost the argument especially among the younger generation.

(Is that the "Jews control the government" canard again? Oh yes, yes it is!

Also, having looked over this whole thing again... this is almost word-for-word what he said at the beginning. This isn't a considered statement, it's a catechism--basically a rote answer delivered without thought.)

The pro-Israel side is trying to put forward this increasingly paranoid conspiracy theory that the reason this is happening is because everyone in the world is an antisemite, that the United Nations is antisemitic, that the ICJ is antisemitic, that The New York Times is antisemitic, that Human Rights Watch is antisemitic, that Amnesty International is antisemitic, that Harvard University is antisemitic, that Columbia is antisemitic, that students are antisemitic.

(Well, of course you're not going to believe it, Kei, but we can give evidence of antisemitism at all of those organizations--often from their own internal documentation.)

But I actually think the reality is that it’s not that everyone is irrationally hateful all of a sudden against Jews.

(Again, who are you to decide what counts as antisemitism, Kei?

"...all of a sudden" as if antisemitism isn't millennia old

Don't you know that antisemitism was invented by the Nazis in 1933 and was ended by the Allies in 1945! /s)

I think it’s that people are sick and tired of watching babies incinerated in their cribs,

(and I wonder how you saw video of that? Who took the video, who uploaded it, and who edited it? Which conflict did it come from? Oh, also, Blood Libel canard)

of watching people’s livelihoods destroyed, of watching entire families, entire bloodlines, wiped out.

(Unless they're Israelis, apparently)

I think people don’t like genocide.

(Genocide Canard counter 7)

And I think people are sick and tired of watching their government send money and weapons and 2,000-pound missiles to be dropped on apartment complexes and journalists.

(again with the "Israel is cruel and bombing just for shits and giggles and wanton cruelty" canard.

They really should learn why it is dangerous being a war reporter in general. Do they really think that a certification is like a force field or similar?

Don't forget that a lot of Hamas militants actively seek out being "independent journalists" in order to use that as a shield.)

Hen talks about journalists. This has actually been the deadliest conflict for journalists ever.

(Because they're all terrorists moonlighting as journalists; that's been shown repeatedly.)

Israel doesn’t want that truth out.

Kei, can I ask you just on that previous score. You mentioned a lot of organizations. I don’t want to get into specific ones but people on the right say that there is something endemic to left-wing organizations that can be antisemitic. Do you think that’s true? Clearly there are people on the right and far-right who have problems with antisemitism, I just wrote about some of them. But is is true on the left, with the pro-Palestine movement? I’ll mention this example because Hen just tweeted about it, that the suspect who tried to burn Josh Shapiro’s house down cited the Free Palestine movement. The argument is there’s a normalization that’s happening that says it’s OK to be antisemitic and can lead people like the suspect which, if he did what was alleged, to do something terrible. Is this a problem in your view in the Free Palestine movement?

KP: So with the Josh Shapiro incident, if you look at the video [the suspect] is clearly mentally ill.

("There is no systemic antisemitism on the Left. Everyone who is antisemitic is having a mental health crisis. There is no war in Bah Sing Se."

Also, you can look at a short video of someone and diagnose them with "mental illness". And mental illness leads directly to hate and violence against minorities, even if there's no hate against said minorities in society at large, because mentally ill people develop their hate out of thin air and are not influenced by society at large. And of course, there's the whole "mentally ill people are scary and violent" thing, which is not directly related to Israel / antisemitism, but I still found it worth pointing out. Mentally ill people are much more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.)

He has never posted about Palestine before. The idea that he’s some Palestinian activist is ridiculous. I think he probably has mental issues. I don’t think he has anything to do with the Palestinian movement.

("No True Palestinian activist would do this!")

So you’re not concerned about normalization of antisemitic rhetoric.

KP: Well again, what Hen is doing is making a false equivalency between anti-Zionism and antisemitism.

("Jews don't get to define antisemitism, only outsiders do.")

There’s growing anti-Israel sentiment in the United States which is true but to say that this has led to attacks on Jews I think is wrong. And a lot of the incidents, if you look at the ADL’s report on antisemitism, a lot of the antisemitic incidents being reported are just people speaking out in support of Palestine or wearing a keffiyeh or saying Free Palestine. That’s not antisemitism.

("Jews call everything antisemitism, and I don't understand micro-aggressions or hostile environments when they're targeting Jews."

They also put the ADL as being blindly Pro-Israel and with Trump government.)

Hen, what would you say to that, to the idea that tying antisemitism to an anti-Zionist movement is a false equivalency.

HM: Yeah. First I’ll quote the person that wanted to burn Josh Shapiro’s family alive. He said “I have said for years, years before October 7, that I favor a two-state solution, Israelis and Palestinians living peacefully side by side, being able to determine their own future and their own destiny,” that’s what he said to reporters just yesterday. To me it sounds like a legitimate call for peace and co-existence. But that made him go and try to burn down a Jewish family and Jewish governor. So there’s a lot of semantics here that are being thrown around. Since October 7 antisemitic incidents in America have reached an all-time high — yes, even statements about Palestine like the one I cited led this person to go and try to burn an entire Jewish family alive. I think there is a problem of antisemitism on both the left and the right and I think the fact that Kei didn’t even know that Macklemore has used Jewface — they would never touch someone who engaged in racism or homophobia but when it comes to antisemitism it’s such an afterthought that you didn’t even know about it, it wasn’t even an issue.

Maybe I’ll speak briefly about what I’m doing with And They’re Jewish. Because what’s striking to me is the contrast between The Encampments and my project, the whole notion that it’s something they’re not even related to — Kei said it doesn’t matter if you’re related to it — but I am related, I am a person invested in it, and the difference between his film and my series is that the film shows Jewish identity through the lens of political rage, through chants, through erasure, through deciding for Jews what is and isn’t antisemitism. It’s very political, and Jews are just a background noise at best or the villains at worst. But And They’re Jewish centers joy, creativity, diversity, humanity. And it reminds people that Jews are not just headlines or symbols in someone else’s protests; we’re real, complicated, vibrant people. And I think the world needs more of that right now. Because this sort of dehumanization that we’re seeing from the encampments and other causes is directly leading to violence against us, and there are reports after reports, study after study, that show how dehumanization of Jews is leading to violence against us, that led to the worst genocide in modern history of six million Jews.

And that’s our fear today — that this dehumanization, this afterthought about Jewish identity and the way we’re being portrayed by this [pro-Palestine] movement, even if it’s just in the guise of “we’re just speaking about Zionism; we’re just speaking about seven million Jews in Israel that we think should be killed, not all Jews,” it doesn’t matter, it harms real Jews, it’s how a 70-year-old Jewish guy was beaten to death in California at a protest, it’s how we ended up with Josh Shapiro’s house being burned, it’s how we end up with so much violence in this country against us, it’s how we end up being gaslighted about the horrific brutality of October 7.

Thanks Hen, I’m glad you talked about the show, and Kei, I’m glad we spoke about the movie. I hope you each continue to watch each other’s work and we all watch work even from people we don’t agree with. We have time for one last question, so I’ll ask each of you this: What’s something you would like to see change on your own side? Something thought about or done differently. Hen let’s start with you.

HM: I’d like to see more voices from the pro-Israel camp speaking up for Palestinian civilians. I think it’s important that we speak about suffering on both sides and that we humanize both Israelis and Palestinians and we make sure we’re focusing on people as human beings and not just as pawns in some dystopian story.

(Kei ignores this)

That we’re seeing real human beings. I hope Israelis and Palestinians will be seen on both sides.

Thank you for that Hen. Kei, same question. Anything you’d like to see done or handled differently on your end of things?

KP: Yeah, I think there are a lot of people in the U.S. that are being legitimately propagandized or lied to about who the Palestinians are and are being told the same narrative that they were told after 9/11, “a lot of Muslims are violent, that they’re hateful people and the Palestinians are our enemy that Lebanese people are our enemy.”

(American-centric glasses for the conflict, and not bothering to examine any deeper.)

But the reality is our enemy is the military industrial complex, it’s the generals, it’s these politicians who sell us on these wars. I would like the Palestine movement to really engage with more debate with these people who are coming forward and supporting Israel because I think a lot of them are being misled about who Arabs and Muslims and Palestinians are.

(Honestly, Kei, if you're an example of the level of good faith debate coming from your movement...)

Thank you for that Kei. A good note to end on from both of you. I think more understanding about who we all are is a good thing. Before we go I just want to give you guys credit. Usually with this conflict people are chanting behind barricades or talking to their followers and not engaging with another side. I know things got heated and there may be some raw feelings. That’s understandable. I hope everyone takes a minute to takes care of themselves. And then feels good about what they did. Not everyone is willing to sit here and have these conversations — hard as they are, important as they are. So thanks to both of you. I hope we can continue talking, and listening.

#antisemitism #leftist antisemitism #the anti imperialism of idiots #israel hamas conflict #jumblr

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