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kittycatcorner · 15 days

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shows up to give you the coffinchain challenge

Please be more careful when you cross the road You’re a perfect arrangement of rickety bones

Stray cats.

Peter had always likened the apprentices to a group of stray cats, in his mind.

At first it was out of distaste. They were a nuisance; a band of drifters slinking around the alleyways, catching their quarries unaware. The quick, sharp jab of a hypodermic needle might as well have been the efficient killing bite that a cat might deliver to the throat of its prey. They worked in the shadows, occupying all of those lonely abandoned buildings and reworking them for a new, twisted purpose.

Then, begrudgingly, he’d found himself wrapped up in Mark Hoffman. Chasing him, hunting him, hellbent on bringing him to justice, then on killing him, then on understanding him, then…

Well, Peter didn’t know what he was doing now.

All he knew was that sitting in his apartment, in varying states of composure, were three of Jigsaw’s disciples.

Dr. Gordon sat on his couch, eyes trained down as his hands worked on bandaging a fresh wound on the arm of his younger accomplice. Stanheight sat quietly and allowed for the medical attention with little fight. Hoffman himself sat on the floor, back leaned against the couch close to the other two.

Peter remained standing, trying not to buckle at the absurdity of his situation. In true stray-animal nature, he had made the mistake of allowing Hoffman into his home once, twice, thrice, and now he’d come back with friends.

‘Don’t feed the strays’, indeed.

Accept that he did know the other two, at this point. The polite Dr. Gordon was well-spoken and direct; Peter had found him infuriating in the beginning. He was a hard man to interrogate and an even harder man to intimidate, as level and unflinching as he was. Unlike Peter, he never seemed to let his anger get the best of him, and he seemed to know that. Dr. Gordon was a man who always seemed very aware of how much more control he had in the conversation. It was enviable.

Then there was Adam Faulkner-Stanheight. Mouthful of a name. It was strange enough for Peter to wrap his head around the fact that the kid was alive, let alone working with Jigsaw. He was angry- had more rage in his scrawny little body than what felt possible. Stupid and impulsive, Peter had found him annoying. Just a petulant adolescent who had gotten himself into bigger trouble than he yet realized.

They’ve come a long way since then. Both apprentices had grown on him, maybe because they reminded him of himself in their amalgamate qualities. The cold, callous bluntness of the doctor. The white-hot temper of the kid. The way he had never seen the former so gentle nor the latter so complacent until now, as they patched themselves together on his bloodied furniture.

Peter had been reluctant to welcome them all inside. It was bad enough to shelter one serial killer, but now three? It reminded him that everything he’s been doing as of late is against what he once stood for. Fuck, it would solve a hell of a lot of his own problems if he didn't care. If he’d let them all rot, make them regret thinking that Peter would risk his own hide just because he's been friendly with them. Dr. Gordon and Stanheight had seemed to understand this too. Their expressions had been apprehensive, looking ready to flee like the animals they were. Peter wonders how long ago he would have given chase.

Hoffman had spoken, then.

“I didn’t-” His voice was shot and exhausted. “I didn’t know where else to go, Strahm.”

And just like that, Peter took them in. Those words were all it took. Hoffman limped inside on a bad leg and described some sort of police-raid, premature. John Kramer and Amanda Young hadn’t even been there, so it had just been the trio, and they were forced to flee. Unable to go far on foot in their current state, Hoffman had brought his injured companions here. To Peter.

Why did that make something strange stir within him?

The three of them were soaked to the bone from the rain. Peter watched Hoffman sluggishly attempt to remain alert, but every so often his head would lull and come to rest against the soft thigh of Dr. Gordon. If the doctor noticed it, he didn't say a word as he continued to diligently work. He looked tired. Stanheight was putting on the best brave face he could manage, but Peter’s keen eyes caught his shoulders trembling, only eased when Gordon’s hand came to rest on one and rubbed gently. They all looked so tired.

Unable to watch any longer, Peter finally broke the silence.

“So why are you still doing this?” It took everything in him to not fidget idly as he spoke, brows furrowed at the three men.

All eyes were on him quite suddenly, sharp as they regarded him. Three clever pairs of observant eyes that all screamed out ‘I know more than I’m letting on' to Peter. He held their gazes, muscled arms crossed over his chest.

“You know what I’m talking about.” He scoffed, lip curling. “What’s the point of doing the old man's dirty work when he just lets things like this happen to you?”

Silence.

Hoffman broke first. He laughed, eyes closing as he rested more fully against the couch. It was good-natured but ultimately dismissive.

Dr. Gordon frowned at Peter, one brow quirked as if he had asked them something incredibly naive. Like he expected Peter to know already.

Stanheight didn't react. Not outwardly, anyways. He only stared, something new and strange glittering in his eyes that Peter couldn't place.

“What,” Peter grit his teeth, an edge to his voice. Less of a question and more of a prompt.

“Nothing, nothing. Apologies, Mr. Strahm.” Gordon sighed, turning his attention back to his handiwork. He appeared to nearly be done with the worst of Stanheight’s injuries now. “It’s just… not that simple.”

“Not exactly the kinda job you can put your two weeks in for.” Hoffman corroborated, a smirk tugging at his full lips.

Peter felt his face burn hot, and he huffed in frustration. “You fucking- Don’t play dumb. Don’t act like it’s a stupid question. I’ll throw you back out onto the fucking curb.” He jabbed a finger at Hoffman in particular, who for his part did indeed shut his mouth. “You listening? Good. What I’m saying is that John Kramer is one demented old man. What is actually stopping you?”

This time, the quiet was punctuated by Hoffman and Gordon exchanging an uncomfortable glance. After a moment, Hoffman shrugged and ran one hand through his damp, messy hair. “I’m sure you’re familiar with the concept of, uh, checks ‘n balances.”

Peter raised an eyebrow skeptically. Hoffman continued.

“Information is power, etcetera. Kramer keeps basically everything on a need-to-know basis. Including, I dunno, who you’re workin’ with half the time. Hell,” He rolled his eyes, and lazily raised a hand behind his head to pat Gordon’s arm. The doctor made an annoyed noise in response, shifting away from him. “He only told me about these lovebirds when he needed help lookin’ after ‘em.”

“I’m still mad about missing out on a trip to Mexico.” Stanheight quipped. His voice was softer than normal, but Peter supposed it was a good sign that he was speaking at all. He wasn’t used to the younger man being so quiet.

Gordon straightened up a moment later, gently patting down the new bandages and brushing some of the hair from Stanheight’s face. “There you go.” He sighed. The warmth in his tone was so palpable that Peter had the distinct feeling it wasn’t meant for his ears. Despite being in his own apartment, he somehow felt he was intruding. “Get comfortable, alright?”

Peter watched as Stanheight pulled himself to his feet, stopping short just a little ways away from him with an awkward shuffle. Gordon patted his thigh and spoke his next words like they took all of his energy to say.

“Your turn.” He didn’t even bother to look at Hoffman. The detective grinned anyways, wasting no time in clamoring up into Gordon’s personal space and slinging his leg across the man’s lap. Gordon shook his head disdainfully, but carefully began rolling back Hoffman’s torn pant leg anyways.

Peter guessed he wasn’t the only one that Hoffman lived to irritate.

“Christ, Mark.” Gordon sucked in a sharp breath, and Peter’s shoulders stiffened as he took a step forward to look. His stomach sank despite himself; from where he was standing Hoffman’s calf looked like a bloody mess. Peter’s a man who’s seen more gore in his line of work than anyone should hope to see in their lifetime, and yet here he is, staring in alarm. It was unlike him, and woefully he could only attribute his own uneasiness to the owner of the calf.

As if he could read his mind, Hoffman looked up towards Peter. “Hey, it’s just-” He winced, hissing in pain as Gordon began to clean the wound. “It’s no big deal- no bullet inside. Just grazed me.”

“You were shot?” Peter balked.

“Grazed,” Hoffman corrected.

Peter pinched the bridge of his nose in a quick-rising frustration. Hoffman was impossible.

“Don’t be an idiot.” Gordon’s voice was little more than a growl as he spoke through gritted teeth. “You took an unnecessary risk. Do you think I enjoy patching you back together? Honestly, if I didn't know any better I’d assume you were trying to get your sorry self killed.”

Dr. Gordon’s tone left the detective bristling. “Don’t tell me how to do my job.” He scoffed. “Hell, I don’t bother you when you’re workin’ in the sickbay. Why don't you just- fuck!”

Hoffman yelped at the unceremonious splash of disinfectant. Gordon gave him the sort of well-practiced fake smile that only a doctor could.

“My bad,” he murmured, unapologetic.

Peter decided he’d seen enough. He turned on his heel and walked into the kitchen, telling himself that he was just stepping aside to get ice in case the doctor needed some. He knew it wasn't the truth, though; he scolded himself quietly as he leaned against the wall and ran a hand through his graying hair.

The truth was that he couldn't keep standing there, staring at Hoffman’s leg injury.

It’s ironic, because it feels like not too long ago that Peter would have done anything to put a bullet in Hoffman. Now the thought makes him feel… queasy. And a bit confused.

Peter found himself comparing the apprentices to strays again.

He couldn’t get the image of roadkill splattered on the side of the highway out of his head.

From what he knew of John Kramer and his cult, the apprentices were expendable parts. It doesn't even sound like they can trust each other half the time. One wrong move or fatal mistake would be all it took. Peter wasn't even sure how long it would take him to know something had happened.

His thoughts were interrupted by footsteps so quiet that he knew exactly who they belonged to before turning around. Stanheight stood at the entryway of his bare-bones kitchen, watching him. He’s probably spent the least amount of time alone with him.

“What is it?” Peter’s frown deepened.

The kid didn't answer immediately, instead coming to lean against the wall beside him. He was quiet for a moment, and then shrugged.

“Wanted to check on you, I guess.” He answered simply.

“Check on me? In what way do I need checking on?” Raising a brow, Peter gestured towards the living room. “Look at you three, for fuck’s sake.”

Stanheight held his hands up defensively. “Hey, hey, I just- I get it, alright?”

Peter didn't know what that meant. He stared down at the shorter man, scowl ever-present, silently prodding him to elaborate. Stanheight’s expression was… almost sympathetic, but his eyes had that same strange look from before: the one that Peter couldn't place.

The kid was easy to underestimate, Peter knew it from his file and from his current involvement. He wasn't about to make that mistake with him.

“Sucks, doesn't it?” Stanheight finally said. He was muttering now, glancing once over his shoulder to ensure they were still alone. “One thing to know what they're doing and another to see them come back with blood and bits of their skin hanging off.”

Peter felt his stomach turn. “No,” he lied. “If Hoffman’s gonna be reckless and get himself killed then so be it.”

“No matter what you or anyone else thinks, I’m not stupid.” Stanheight laughed dryly. “You don't gotta lie to me, okay? I’m on team Peter here.”

“Are we forgetting that you’re one of ‘them’ too?” Peter steeled his gaze, unamused.

Stanheight grimaced. “I mean- kind of. Not really.”

“‘Not really?’ What’s that mean?”

“I- like- like I’m with them but I’m not one of them. Old Johnny-boy has never and will never give a shit about me. Not exactly in the running to be his heir or whatever the others think will happen.” Stanheight huffed, rolling his eyes as he explained. “Pretty sure he wouldn't even notice if I went missing if it weren't for the pictures ‘n schedules I go and get for him.”

Peter is quiet for a moment.

“Why stick around?” He asked softly, already knowing the answer.

The kid just snorted in lieu of answering, and the two fell into silence once more for a couple of seconds.

“Glad that Mark has you.” Stanheight suddenly murmured, thoughtful.

“He does not ‘have me’.”

“Maybe you can knock some sense into him.”

Peter scoffed, looking elsewhere. “You’re frustrating, you know that?”

“I’ve been told.” Stanheight laughed, “I’m not kidding, though. It always freaks me out how Mark gets when he’s like…”

Raising a brow, Peter waited for him to sort out his thoughts.

“Like, when he gets hurt, right? He just- just runs off. Or he’ll go and get hammered on the other side of town and when we find him he’s a mess.”

At that, Peter’s shoulders went rigid. He was aware of Mark’s habits, his unhealthy coping mechanism. He hadn't thought about who else might know, how deeply it might run. He hadn't thought about how often Mark must be alone.

When he looked back at Stanheight, he realized the kid was staring at him intently. There was concern in his expression, but also something fierce.

“John’s really messed him up. Worse than he was before all of this.” His voice was low, almost cautious. “All of them. Lawrence, Mark, Mandy, none of them deserve this. You know that, right?”

Peter’s mouth felt dry. “I…”

Straightening up again, Stanheight stepped closer to Peter. Before he could see it coming, a smaller hand took his own and held it, inspecting it. “I think Mark needs you.” He said, “maybe all of us do. So you gotta take care of yourself too.”

Something confused seemed to bloom in his chest then, an uncertain warmth that he could feel rise up to his face. He opened his mouth to speak, but closed it again when he couldn't decide on anything to say.

“Just think about it, ‘kay?” Stanheight let go of his hand again and started to leave the kitchen, pausing for just a moment to look back at him. “Oh, one more thing.”

“What is it?” Peter’s voice was hoarse.

Stanheight gave him a grin that didn't meet his eyes. “Welcome to the family.”

Then he was gone, Peter’s protest to that statement dying on his lips, and Peter was left to think on everything he said.

Hoffman needing him. Hoffman hiding himself away in dark corners to nurse his wounds. Improperly set bones and too much bandage.

Stray cats.

Peter’s family used to have cats. His sister’s cat had been an old, white, raggedy thing that she named Alfredo. When Alfredo passed away, he had hidden under the bed and refused to come out. Peter thinks he remembers reading somewhere that pets do that on purpose, so their humans don't have to see them die, but it's been years and his animal knowledge is limited.

Peter wondered how hard it is to socialize a stray cat. To reintroduce it to domesticity.

He stepped out of the kitchen, lingering at the entryway, and watched the apprentices from where he stood. Gordon seemed to have finished with Hoffman’s leg, speaking to him in a quieter tone than before. To his surprise, Hoffman looked like he was listening. Stanheight was on the couch with them now, leaning his head onto Gordon’s shoulder.

Peter found that he wished he could freeze this moment with the three of them in it. The bubble of safety that was his living room felt far away from everything Jigsaw. Maybe they were always meant to be here, on soft furniture, and not crouching amongst rusted pipes and jagged metal.

Tamed. Domesticated.

He sighed through his nose and walked around the couch, three sets of clever eyes on him again as he caught their attention. Now that he was there, he could see that Dr. Gordon had just begun to wrap up Hoffman’s leg and he silently motioned to ask for the gauze, kneeling down between them.

Understanding the gesture, Gordon handed it over, smiling at Peter warmly enough to raise his body temperature by a degree.

“Strahm-” Hoffman started, bewildered, but Peter simply began wrapping his leg neatly.

“Shut up.” He grunted. “Let me help you, stupid.”

#saw #coffinchain #chainshipping #hoffstrahm #coffinshipping #hoffstrahmdonheight #asks #jennilah #I LOVE YOU JENNA I'M SORRY THIS TOOK SO LONG #these are supposed to be short fics . uhhhhhhhh #i prommy i'll get better at this whole ficlet thing #anyways god i hope any of you like this bc i already hate it LMAOOO it's mostly dialogue and idk if it's anything #oh well #sometimes you write 3k words and then just go 'this sucks' and post it anyways #could've been softer given the song i rolled BUT i wanted to ease y'all in since this is technically my first posted coffinchain fic #pls tell me if you do like it ;w; and also don't be afraid to keep sending ships/characters bc i'm still up for this song lyric prompt #writing #fanfic #peter strahm #mark hoffman #adam faulkner stanheight #lawrence gordon #ughgg i love them. i really love them i wish i could do them more justice than this

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dw-flagler · 2 months

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In this post, I will attempt to calmly, reasonably, and in-a-good-faith-manner argue all the points raised by tumblr user @library-bat-girl in the following posts. I am starting a new thread so as not to further destroy the original poster, @skitterenjoyer's, tumblr notifications. Worm (+MHA) spoilers ahead. This will be a long post.

Firstly, I would like to apologize on the worm fandom's behalf. We will not engage in ableism of any kind. I sincerely hope that this was a singular incident and @skittersdrippygirlcock will be better about this in the future.

"MHA has better characters,"

My Hero Academia's primary achievement, I think, is managing to make many decently well rounded characters in a fairly short time-span. It certainly has very good visual character design, with easily memorable character designs, like Mina Ashido or Tsuyu Asui. Most of Class 1A is shown to be more than single-note gimmick characters. For a story with such a tight schedule, and only so much page real-estate, that's impressive! For instance, a character decidedly outside of the main cast, Fumikage Tokoyami, is shown to have more to his personality than "is an edgelord," showing a humility and friendliness that is highly against-type. This is very different than a lot of its peers, especially in Shonen manga, where side characters (and sometimes even main characters) are never more than their tropes (see Fairy Tale, One Punch Man*, The Seven Deadly Sins, or Black Clover). My Hero Academia does clear that bar, by making side characters little more than their tropes. This is to say nothing of the primary cast, who, again, is largely defined by tropes and easily slotted into standardized interchangeable Shonen roles. Rival, Love Interest, Rival but Nice About It. Additionally, MHA has an uncomfortably sexualized main cast, for one composed primarily of minors.

This is compared to Worm, in which many characters are fully realized and could have been the protagonist (and often were in older drafts of the story, due to Worm's 10-year development hell). Every character that gets an interlude, and most that don't, all have fully realized interiority, traumas, and wants. In fact, this is one of the major themes of Worm. Every character, from the protagonist Taylor, to characters so minor they're seen only once (see Damsel of Distress, Dauntless), to major antagonists and monsters (see Jack Slash, Bonesaw) all have their own story, even if this is never shown on-screen. There are no "side characters" in the same manner as in My Hero Academia, because every character is a protagonist of their own story, and not in a trite "life is so beautiful" way.

Taylor isn't the center of the universe, there's an entire world outside of her 3-block bubble. The mechanism by which all characters get their superpowers means that the mere fact of having powers implies this about them. Even the seeming exceptions, aren't (see Alexandria, Garotte). Taylor is a good character. I don't even know how to elaborate on that. She just is. Worm does not have the character Minoru Mineta.

"a better plot,"

What... what is the plot of My Hero Academia? For the life of me, I can't seem to recall. I can tell you the general formula of most of the arcs for the first ~2/3rds of the story. Class 1A goes to do a hero high school thing, like do rescue training, or on-the-job training, or on-the-job-training, or on-the-job-training (they do it like 4 times for some reason), the League Of Villains shows up (even when it's seemingly not the league of villains it actually is the league of villains) they fight about it, the class beats all the villains, and Deku beats up strongest bad guy and also breaks his bones. Repeat step 1. But like. What's... the plot? The League of Villains is evil and wants to kill people and do bad stuff. They explicitly do not have greater motivations. There's generally themes of passing-on-to-the-new-generation, so there's Tomura Shigaraki as the arch nemesis to Izuku Midoriya, just as All Might's Nemesis is All For One. Eventually they fight a big fight about it and I stop reading because I find out about Worm. From what I understand (I have not read the conclusion) the series ends without addressing any long-running questions, wrapping up any character arcs, or concluding anything in a narratively satisfying manner. As if severely rushed.

Worm, there are maybe 15 main stories going on simultaneously, which are all tied into the final confrontation with Scion. The most obvious is Taylor's and the Undersiders' story, about taking over Brockton Bay and defeating Coil, which is a smaller part of Coil's story about taking over the bay, until their confrontation with him in arc 17, when it supersedes Coil's story, and then intersects with Cauldron's story, the Traveler's story, the Case 53s' stories, the Wards' story, all of it, in arcs 18-19. This is one example. A great deal of attention is spent making sure the reader knows that Taylor, the Undersiders, Coil, all of them, are bit players in a very large game. Despite this, it's never hard to follow, because Wildbow, while lacking some of the more flowery prose, manages extremely well at making his stories easy to understand.

"I feel like even people who like Worm can agree that Worm is not the most consistent piece of fiction ever written. The disjointed way it was written meant that emphasis was primarily put on 'What Wildbow thought was cool in the moment', [sic] and the story RADICALLY shifts gears every time a new arc starts."

What? Huh? Worm is extremely consistent. Like. 1.1 to E.x. It's, like. Not disjointed? Oh my god, are you talking about interludes? Is that what you mean? The interludes shift gears? Because that makes sense. It's one of the hardest things about worm, yeah. It's gripping! The interludes are a great idea to expand the world of worm, but the problem is that taylor's story is so intriguing that stepping away from it to focus on something else is hard, no matter how individually interesting. I want to read about taylor's escalation spiral, not the travelers! (As opposed to My Hero Academia having random escalation and de-escalation between arcs with no real explanation. We're reading about lives-on-the-line battles with child-slavers and then move to playing on a playground with little kids? Best I can think of is that this whiplash is intentional, but this is never communicated to the reader. Worm does not do this. Any de-escalation is met with the explicit understanding that this is merely a period of calm before things get even worse). Taylor's story wraps up in an extremely narratively satisfying fashion, following her story to its logical conclusion. There were so many ways it could have been avoided, but there was really only one way that it could have ended.

"better worldbuilding,"

This actually offends me. MHA could have had great world-building. It doesn't. Every potentially interesting bit of world-building is backpedaled out of or stopped before it could get anywhere. Or it's just never elaborated or expanded upon. Everyone having a superpower could have been cool, but the implications of this are nonexistent. The reasons for this having no real implications, that being the banning of quirks, also has implications that are also immediately backpedaled out of. It's been hundreds of years since our time, yet life is exactly the same. Nothing ever happens. Endeavor is a cool concept. I like Endeavor. his existence implies such interesting things about the world, how important hero ranking is to these people's lives, that he would create this horrific system of domestic abuse to try and get to the #1 spot. What does this say about this system of heroes that operates like a popularity contest? It could have said a lot. It says nothing. What does the League of Villains, a league of people who call themselves out-and-out villains, who base their ideology in opposing this system of heroes, say about society? Nothing. On purpose. Worm does something with this. One Punch Man does something with this. My Hero Academia puts it in the story, and lets it sit, unused, for a decade.

Worm has... unique world-building. Because it's both good and bad at the same time. Worm's #1 feature is its world. It's brilliant, full stop. Triggers, The Birdcage, the PRT, Exclusion Zones! Why does the status quo exist? what does it say about that society? What does it say about our society? Why hasn't society radically changed from how it is in our world? This is explained. This plays into the themes. The story wants to say something about this world, and so it does. There are characters whose stories explicitly delve into these themes that are set up in the worldbuilding, like Armsmaster, or Battery, or Bonesaw, or Coil, or Piggot or Alexandria or Taylor herself or Brian or Lisa or ANY OF THEM THEY ALL DO THIS. Sorry.

Anyway, the bad part is that the actual world is not well built (and is kind of racist). What's going on in Europe? There's a 3 blasphemies! a 3 what? never explained. What's going on in Asia, aside from Japan? China is a monarchy for some reason. Why? It's never elaborated on. India gets a little bit of elaboration, we're told its different but not how it's different. Wildbow uses machine translation wrong and names some guy caliph of dogs. This is like worm's #2 problem honestly (#1 is Amy). Wildbow tries to make the implication of a well thought out globe without actually making a well thought out globe.

"stronger themes,"

It really doesn't. As I said in the worldbuilding section, MHA makes a point out of not saying or doing anything. I don't know if editors made Horikoshi walk back the more ambitious story beats or what, but there are multiple points in the story where the author pretty much looks you directly in the eye and goes "This Story Isn't Saying Anything At All Even Though It Looked Like It Would. Lmao."

Worm has lots of themes. I think Armsmaster/Defiant's story is my favorite. His entire character arc (which is fully realized despite him being a background character for nearly the entire story) has a point to it. It says something. It's misanthropic and uplifting simultaneously, and manages to feel like it earns both. It's a shared theme with Bonesaw/Riley's story, explored in two different ways.

"Meanwhile MHA establishes an actual overall theme/message right from the start that expands and develops throughout the story. The worldbuilding is informed by the message, which informs the characters arcs and the people they become by the end of the story."

I notice that you never actually say what that message is. What is it? Like, for real. I'm not being confrontational or anything, like what is the message? Cuz' I can't think of one. My Hero Academia, at its very core, is a defense of the status quo. Much like its world-building, but much less forgivable, because it does do something new and unique with its world-building. MHA could have done some extremely interesting stuff with its early implicit critique of heroic society as shown with characters like Bakugo, or Shigaraki, or Endeavor, or Overhaul, or Midoriya himself! It just doesn't! It doesn't do stuff that Worm does do!

Worm does have a message. It has a lot of messages, actually, some that the author disagrees with somehow. Prison abolition, for one. We know Wildbow loves prison. Anyway, the big one is in the subtitle: doing the wrong things for the right reasons. Taylor's constant spiral of escalation, her dwindling attachments to her friends and greater focus on treating herself like a soldier is prevalent, and it is to be avoided. Taylor isn't a sin-eater. They don't exist. From what I remember, this is sort of explored in Deku's character arc for a short period of time, but much like everything else in MHA, it is backpedaled out of.

The funniest is "don't text and drive" though.

"Just on a basic level the way that the audience is meant to feel about Taylor oscillates wildly between being directed to think of her as a misunderstood victim of circumstance, or history's greatest monster."

That's kind of the point. Like. the audience isn't meant to look at Taylor the same way throughout the entire story. It's meant to change as she changes. Taylor's opinion of Taylor changes. The mistake here is saying it "oscillates wildly." it doesn't. It's a slow and steady change for the worse, as Taylor gets more violent and starts throwing away greater and greater parts of herself to become more like a robot and less like a person.

"But a bigger issue in general is tone. It's very focused on being dark and gritty and edgy, and it makes the mistake a lot of consciously edgy media does. IE: it thinks that all it has to do to be smart is be bleak and/or graphic. It doesn't really try to say anything, in fact it contradicts itself throughout the book as I mentioned before, it just throws in extremely graphic scenes and content periodically to remind the audience how fucked everything is."

Did you read the boys and think it was worm? What? It's not being smart when it's bleak or graphic? I actually personally like the endbringers or the slaughterhouse 9, and not because I like watching people suffer. These things exist for a reason. It's not being dark for the sake of being dark. The heroes could stop the slaughterhouse 9. We see that, when they almost stop the slaughterhouse 9 (it's explicitly shown that they are stopped from destroying the slaughterhouse 9). The question then becomes why don't they? It's a grim, brutal calculus, and one that wasn't worth it. That's the point. The Endbringers are different. It's not until arc 27 that they're really explained. You could either read them as a criticism of Eidolon or of ableism, honestly. I mean, it wasn't intentional, he didn't create them on purpose, he needed something to fight, because without that he's nothing. His powers are all he has.

"Worm spends so much time trying to be edgy that as with a lot of edgy media the edginess loses all impact quite quickly and becomes sort of cringe."

I don't really think so, but like. Okay. I don't think this is a reconcilable viewpoint (none of this is really but this especially), so like we're probably gonna have to agree to disagree. The only thing I can really think of as edgy for the sake of edginess is Amy's arc. But even that's not really true. It's meant to be an utterly avoidable tragedy that could never have been stopped because of the people involved. Much like Taylor, actually. Amy could have stepped back from the brink, but she didn't, because Amy could never have done that, and nobody else was willing/able to help. It's supposed to be a thing where you sit back and think of all the tiny ways this could have easily been avoided, but wasn't.

"When body horror happens it still has impact because it's not happening constantly."

I mean, I guess. But like. I never got desensitized to the body horror in Worm. It hit pretty consistently for me throughout. As opposed to MHA, where it was usually walked back by the end of every arc. I never felt much tension or suspense because it felt as if there weren't actual consequences. In Worm, when Brian was strung up on his nerves, it felt disgusting because I was fully aware Worm would explore the ripple effects of this. It felt entirely possible he would die there, or never recover, because Worm didn't pull its punches. MHA did. This is a matter of opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree about it.

"But most importantly - you root for the heroes because the world actually seems like it's worth saving."

that's just, um. sorry. I'm really trying here. That's just. Uh. Dumb. Do you root for Batman cause Gotham is a nice city? Everything's worth saving, that's, like, at its most basic what the concept of a superhero is about.

"Not only that but MHA simply does villain protagonists objectively better than Worm."

um. No? There straight up aren't villain protagonists in MHA. The villains are the POV characters for, like, one arc? You know what, here's a good spot for it. It's stated throughout the story that Shigaraki and the League of Villains have a goal, beyond just death and destruction. They're here to stop the corrupt society of heroes (that MHA hints at the existence of before backpedaling away from), and bring about a fairer society. But then, and this part pissed me off, one of the characters, I think Bakugo, says: "you're just using that as cover! you just want to kill people, you have no noble goal!" and shigaraki's like "dang you caught me." and then it happens again with Deku! Because My Hero Academia is allergic to saying something. Nope! They're villains! No moral depth here! They're Villains, We're Heroes, Go Put Them In Jail.

This is opposed to Worm, where- "The characters of the villains and their origins are used to highlight the flaws in the Superhuman society"

"Most of the villains are only villains because society failed them in some way, and the specific ways in which that happened become big plot points that then play into the future arc of our heroic characters."

I had to walk away from my computer for this one. It's hard to be civil. It's really hard. Polite and reasonable.

So Worm is about this. To even say this without a shred of irony makes me thing you've never once read a single word of Worm and are doing this purely as bait. Or you've read all of Worm and are doing this purely as bait.

"They're actually extremely complex in a way that ends up being fundamentally important to the overall story - where in Worm the villains are either based heroes fighting a corrupt system or they're histories [sic] greatest monsters... until they're presented as heroes again."

I think I get it now. I really think I do. You're not supposed to agree with all the characters. Like. Worm is inconsistent, in that it follows the perspectives of inconsistent people. Of course Triumph and Armsmaster don't agree on what is right! They're different people, they have different perspectives!

"See. Worm fans keep saying "This is Bait." It's not Bait, you all are simply ridiculous and obsessed with this series to such a degree that you feel compelled to say "This is Bait" instead of just... ignoring it, because you have no actual counterargument."

Perhaps worm fans are inclined to believe you posted rage bait because you brazenly walked into another fandom's post and wholeheartedly proclaimed that the thing they liked was Stupid Idiot Bullshit For Fucking Morons, and refused to elaborate until prompted, at which point you said several things that are demonstrably false about Worm.

"Your only response to anything I've said is pedantry, bigotry, and deflection. If it was obviously just bait why are you engaging?"

Well, I'm engaging because I've been in a foul mood since I woke up this morning. Also because you, again, said some very rude and patently false statements about a story that I really enjoy and find narratively rich, even in its faults.

"MHA's characters do fall into archetypal shounen character roles - but they are all given a solid amount of focus explaining why they are like that and developing them into something bigger."

Again, as I said, it's a genuinely impressive feat to have an ensemble cast like what My Hero Academia has, and give so many of the characters a degree of depth, with such little manga to work with. I think worm does it better, but worm doesn't have to be economical about it. MHA does. The problem I have with this statement is that it becomes a question of scale. How much bigger? They're no longer defined by their tropes, instead defined by their opposition to their tropes. It's still a one-note character, you've merely changed the note from C to C sharp.

"so almost every member of the cast has an arc that either develops them past the person they initially seemed to be or explains why they're like that."

This is probably my favorite part about MHA. They do have arcs! I love ensemble casts! it does a much better job in this than all of its contemporaries, even One Piece. However, they are comparatively simplistic arcs that all follow a similar formula.

"I've heard people say MHA is neocon or pro-establishment but the story literally concludes by showing that society HAS TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE or the same problems that created the villains in the first place will keep happening. The entire time skip specifically focuses on the fact that for eight years the main characters have been forcing change in the world and addressing the issues the villains brought up."

Now, I'm going to be clear. I stopped reading My Hero Academia around chapter 275. I don't know the exact number, but it was the latest chapter in ~mid 2020. I would occasionally attempt to reread, in an attempt to catch up, but give up around chapter 200 out of boredom. I don't know exactly how the story ends, but I have read ~2/3rds of the story. I feel this gives me a pretty good understanding of the general tone of the story, unless it wildly changes tone at the 3/4ths mark, which you have explicitly said it does not, as it is extremely coherent and consistent. Therefore, I believe I can state with some degree of confidence that MHA does not do that.

I would certainly believe that it tries (and fails) to SFP it, but SFP does not promote a fundamental societal change. That's the problem. Strong Female Protagonist was willing to come up and say that Alison lived in a fundamentally unjust world, even if it was never willing or able to offer real change. And hey. You do what you can. I sincerely doubt My Hero Academia is even willing to call its world fundamentally unjust, from the 200+ chapters that I did read.

"In the case of the actual main characters, they have extremely comprehensive character arcs."

Adding this behind the last point just so that I don't have to reiterate I haven't finished the book. I am, however, very much not inclined to believe the actual main characters had extremely comprehensive character arcs.

Which plays back into the initial theory that ANYONE CAN BE A HERO.

man, spider-man did that better (not a real argument, but like, spider-man totally did that better). Not least because midoriya specifically could not become a hero were it not for all might giving him a power.

No, the Villains don't get happy endings,

Why not? Why do they go to jail, even the ones who changed and wanted to redeem themselves? Endeavor never goes to jail. He did some horrible stuff. He's redeemed himself in the eyes of the story, right? Anyone can be a hero, right? So why not them? Why haven't they redeemed themselves in the eyes of the story?

You may wish to turn this back on me and ask why doesn't Armsmaster go to prison? Because he's similar in some respects. But worm never calls prison justice. (for some reason, even though wildbow totally loves prison). Prison is punitive, a tool for those in charge to control those it manages to capture. Maybe some deserve life in the birdcage. Many don't. It doesn't matter. Because the birdcage isn't a tool of justice. It's not meant to be. it's a box to put the uncontrollable capes in, until they can be used as meat shields. So Armsmaster doesn't go to prison because the story says explicitly there is no point to it. But MHA? MHA says there is a point to it. Endeavor needs to go to prison if he wants to atone. He's escaping justice every second he's outside.

I have actually read Worm, and for the first half to two thirds I loved it.

Weird. That's exactly how long I really enjoyed MHA. Not, like relevant, to anything. Just odd. I mean, I don't actually dislike MHA. I think it's fine, actually. It feels like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade to me. Funny (when Mineta isn't around), bombastic, and a good time, even if I don't think it's super thematically rich.

I'm not coming at this from the perspective of someone who has never seen any of the merits of Worm, I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who really liked it, gave it a fair shot, and was eventually disappointed when it ended up not tying together right.

See, this makes me more inclined to think it's bait, actually. since you said "Oh yeah. MHA is published. MHA's been an ongoing publication with a large following for ten years, in a notoriously competitive industry. Now this might seem kind of unimpressive, it's a very low bar to clear I know. But it's one Worm hasn't, so. I dunno, I'd say that's fairly objective. Now you may think "Yeah, but Trash fiction gets published all the time." And that's true but again - Worm hasn't. The worst piece of fiction you can think of got published and Worm didn't. You wanna be an asshole about this? The thing you love is so mid that it was self published in 2013, couldn't get picked up for professional publishing until 2019 and as far as I can see has stayed in development hell since then." in your previous post. Sure, perhaps we can say you were pissed at the time, but "the thing you love is worse than trash fiction, an altogether nothing piece of literature that isn't even worth the paper it would hypothetically be printed on" does not strike me as the words of someone who "really liked it, gave it a fair shot, and was eventually disappointed when it ended up not tying together right." In fact, going back through your other statements on the story, you seem to have genuinely disliked it from the very beginning, on grounds of being too edgy (which I can fully understand the logic of): "IE: it thinks that all it has to do to be smart is be bleak and/or graphic," thematically incoherent: "It doesn't really try to say anything, in fact it contradicts itself throughout the book as I mentioned before, it just throws in extremely graphic scenes and content periodically to remind the audience how fucked everything is," and utterly devoid of purpose or meaning. "When it does introduce new lore that new lore is almost always overly convoluted and acts as a catalyst for things happening, but not really things happening that play into a wider theme or message. It's just "Oh and here's this team of god-level serial killers who are gonna string a dude up by his nervous system." Like yeah, cool visual, but what is any of this actually saying?" This does not sound like a ringing endorsement of the first half of Worm to me. In fact, this sounds like you hated every second of it.

"And frankly given the number of comments that are just people saying "Bait" - I don't think any of y'all have engaged with this in a fair or honest way"

I'm going to reiterate on my previous statement. I like my hero academia. Capeshit is my favorite genre, it probably always will be. They're my favorite genre of story. While I find the themes—or lack thereof—extremely frustrating, I still think of it as fun. I gave it a fair shake. I would probably really enjoy the ending if I didn't have a reading list that was 300 books long.

#worm spoilers #MHA spoilers #*One Punch Man is partially an exception as characters are “never more than their tropes” for the sake of parody.#i don't dislike my hero academia by the way. in fact i rather like it. at least the first three quarters or so #L style contessa should have hit eidolon with a car and been like “look at that the endbringers stopped crazy.”#well it would have actually been crazy considering she had no way to know he was causing them #sorry n0brainjustvibes i never finished that MHA fanfic you recced me #quote text is colored to stop your eyes glazing over at the wall of text #armsmaster is what endeavor could/should have been #like they have a very similar arc. but they differ in that armsmaster's redemption is earned and endeavor's isn't #how so? there's like a reason armsmaster has an epiphany about his previous behavior #endeavor's like “oh the narrative is focusing on me as a protagonist i better be a good guy now!”#the fixing society thing is what ward should have been about but wasn't. but we're not talking about ward #by the way i wish they just killed teacher instead of birdcaging him. ward would have been so much better #^that was a joke #sorry about making the quotes smaller i'm trying to save some space in this tumor of a post somewhere #please don't say “god-level serial killers” by the way. for my sake if nothing else #you know i made the comparison to gotham being a shithole somehow without any thought that the person i am disagreeing with is a batman fan #or at least a batgirl fan

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mellotronmkll · 3 months

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Like I genuinely feel like a lot of fans of like late 70s/early 80s new wave and post-punk especially the 'weirder' and more artsy and high concept stuff would love early they might be giants Like can you not get enough of elements of the avant-garde in pop music do you love when music is sarcastic and irreverent and witty and surreal and absurd and DARK do you like when music sounds a bit scary and challenges and unsettles you do you like when its been made with DIY production on the cheapest crunchiest instruments and is performed in gritty underground clubs and presented to audiences in novel ways do you like when artists seek to play with and redefine the relationship between artist and audience or do you also just like when frontmen get down autistic silly and sensitive style and freak everyone out with the way they incorporate performance art into their live shows like just. please contact me so we can listen to the 1983 demo tape while holding hands and I tell you all about it and then I play you a bunch of hissy staticy recordings that were ripped off of an answering machine 40 years ago and you will be changed

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godsfavoritescientist · 1 year

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Biting the bars of my enclosure about autistic ford tonight. There's something about him using vocabulary and turns of phrase that seem "outdated" or "pretentious" that feels so painfully genuine to me. When people say he talks like that just to "try to sound smart" I wish I could explain what it's like to be so ostracized from your peers growing up that you spend all your time reading instead, to the point where you pick up your way of speaking from books instead of from people. And then what it's like for people to call you out for "talking weird" over and over again, not able to wrap their heads around why the fuck you would choose more archaic or technical or formal words than the simpler ones that surely come to everyone's minds first. What it's like to have to dedicate a sizable chunk of attention to filtering through every single word you say out loud in real time before you say it, to make absolutely sure that it isn't a word people will judge you for using or make fun of you for using, just so you'll have a chance of being taken seriously. Learning through trial and error how to filter out the words that other people don't think are normal or casual enough for the conversation, even though for you, the word choice that's "natural-sounding" enough for them is the third or fourth word you came up with when searching for the right way to phrase something in your head. I wish I could explain just how long it takes to say fucking anything after spending a lifetime doing that during every single conversation, and how repetitive and long-winded you end up being when you spend so long coming up with alternative ways of saying every little thing you ever think. And I wish people realized that, at the very least for autistic people and autistic-coded characters, speech that's seen as pretentious is really just the way they talk when they're not putting in the extra effort to filter through every word they say just so others will take the time to listen.

#ford meta #actuallyautistic #everyone go read the wikipedia page for 'stilted speech' right now #long post #ford isnt very good at masking. he doesn't have the kind of (unintentional) autistic coding that is Palatable To Neurotypicals.#definitely looking-too-deeply-at-a-kid-cartoon right now but in *some* ways. a world where the majority of people think its easy to like an #-understand ford is a world that would feel safe for me to unmask in.#i truly truly hate that fully explaining my thoughts on ford requires me to say so much about myself. but god is it such a crime-#-to use a fictional character as a lens through which to try and explain to people how to be more understanding and accepting-#-of things like this.#making fun of stilted speech is so normalized that people don't even realize they're making fun of someone for being weird.#people think its Someone Thinking They're Better Than You but its something people lay awake at night wishing they could stop doing.#and yet they still end up using the Wrong Words and being labeled a Pretentious Asshole just for talking differently than the norm.#maybe there really are people out there who deliberately use big words to try and sound smarter than everyone else. I don't know.#all I know is. in a world where its pretty obvious that people who use a discongruently complex vocabulary get made fun of for doing that.#why would someone deliberately trying to impress people do something that would only get them laughed at.#sorry for being genuine on main. as if its my fault </3

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cripplepunkfag · 6 days

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god i wish i could stop fuckin thinking this i feel like such a dick i KNOW people with more obvious and more serious disabilities dont "have it better" but i cant stop thinking about it i just wish i could collapse dramatically and get rushed somewhere and magically diagnosed i feel like such a fuckin drama queen because i feel awful all the time but its just like dizziness and pain do i even have the right to claim im disabled? its not like im diagnosed. its not like i know whats wrong. its not like its serious. maybe i am just fuckin faking it.

#i wish i had something horribly wrong with me i know its selfish and bad to say that #but that thought wont leave if i dont write it out #i wish i had some horrible condition or some birth defect or anything that was OBVIOUS that people could find!!!#i just wish i was worse so i wouldnt feel like im stuck in this fuckin limbo #please reply #i want anyone to talk about this i dont care what just please #these thoughts wont leave and i feel like such a dick for thinking them anf they wont fuckin stop #anon says shit #cpunk #cripple punk #vent #rant post #disability #maybe #i dont even fuckin know #i wish i did #i wish i was normal but i know i cant be #so i wish i was WORSE just so i could know something is wrong #you dont have to go “oh its not better if your worse” i KNOW #I KNOW its fuckin selfish n privileged n stupid to think like this n it wotn fucking stop god help me please

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goldentigerfestival · 3 months

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Part 4 of the Vesperia differences between JP and the dub!

Part 1.

Part 2.

Part 3.

(Other) GTF Favorites.

As a heads up, I had to piece several images here as "one" image to circumvent the image limit because I was not about to make a part five by the time I got toward the end LOL.

For some reason the dub completely removed Alexei jokingly/sarcastically saying it makes his heart hurt (brings him down in this tl) how Estelle will come to her senses and see what she's done to her friends. As usual, the dub has a very weird habit of adding sentences where they never existed and completely removing sentences for no literally no reason.

I feel that "set you free" can also have the implication of saving her alive (which the dub heavily seems to lean toward versus wording that really shows Yuri's resolve here, the latter of which fits right in with Flynn and Ioder's acceptance that he may have to kill her), so I included this one to go with the previous case of Flynn mentioning that Yuri's group was going to "save" Estelle. The original is more ambiguous about her possible survival, but the dub leans more into being ambiguous in a way that doesn't lean toward her dying.

The dub changed this to nothing but literally "aye" so... do with that what you will.

Another case of them randomly wiping out an entire sentence (the last one).

As with other cases, there are some slight changes I don't feel are worth mentioning and often tend to be just slight changes in word choice that ultimately mean close to the same thing. This is generally the case for most of the spirit gathering arc. The overall tl of this arc is pretty much accurate, just with some odd cases like the above.

I really don't wanna say like, it's because Flynn's not around for a chunk of the plot in arc 3, but uh... let's be honest, it's once again as soon as Flynn gets back into the picture that the tl starts to go haywire again - especially where Yuri is concerned. Like. Literally. As usual.

In the dub, this was "but Duke isn't". Just putting this one here because I feel like this gives more of a sense how the characters are feeling about it, more than just him not working out in their favor.

This one was calling Ba'ul "weak" in the dub, but here Yuri is just asking if he's that stubborn about changing his form to a spirit. Putting this here because I feel using "weak" is a lot more harsh and has negative connotations on it compared to a more ignorant "stubborn" before Yuri understands.

Yuri mentions here that Duke seems to have thought a lot about what he's doing. In the dub, this was "he seems totally obsessed". Not sure what the reason for that change was.

Raven makes this more of a question in the dub, but here is more of him realizing it and putting the pieces together, so I figured I'd include this one since it's a slight change in a character's perception of something.

The first line was changed to "could you be any more worthless" (I guess because they thought the "boring" line was weird? idk lol). The second and third line got swapped for some reason, even though it does kind of change the general meaning behind what's being said.

Yuri says first that Sodia gave up, only to tell her she has no right to say it was all for Flynn (thus saying it's because of giving up). At least imo, in the dub it comes across as "you say it's for him but you gave up thus it's an excuse", versus "you have no right to say it's for him".

I'm trying not to say it again, y'all.

Karol says that Yuri going off alone is a bad habit. The dub changed this to "you keep forgetting us", which I'm kind of confused by because he's not forgetting them and literally told them to get ready to go to Tarqaron. Not really sure why they'd change this line since like yeah, it is a bad habit of his lol.

Another translation error in the dub, so this one's here for clarification. The dub says Astal "lost control", but Astal by this point is dead (and he never "lost control"). Judith also says in the dub that it made all the monsters gather here, rather than saying they've gone savage. It seems like they misunderstood something thinking Astal losing control brought all the monsters here, but obviously we know that can't be the case because Astal is dead.

This was changed in the dub to "it's our turn to do Yuri a favor", when he's actually supposed to be teasing him, which Yuri directly replies to.

Still trying not to say it.

Dub Karol sounds more like he's prepared to go in, but in the original audio, Karol sounds nervous about the hoard they're about to have to get involved with. Raven's line was changed to Flynn looking like he needs help and not that so much that he's cornered, and the original audio has him sounding more urgent about it. Minor changes here, but tonally I think they impact the scene differently (and definitely give more of a "this is really fuckin' dangerous" vibe in the original audio).

Another slight change and not an important one, but figured I'd include this since it has a slightly different meaning/vibe to it.

Including this just for Yuri's little laugh when he shows up (I love him! A Yuri Lowell!) and Flynn's shocked response. More tonal in change, but definitely worth a listen and will be linked below with Flynn's laugh!

This can also be translated as "it's simple/it will be simple", because it's "me and you" doing it. Imo this makes it more clear he's referring to just them (i.e. the upcoming fight) and not the entire group, but Yuri also specifically specifies "you and me", so it's much more clear that he's referring only to them (which I think, also given Yuri's levity in this situation despite the danger, shows how much they've completely come back from and recovered from the Nordopolica/Alexei stuff). Shoutout to Yuri deciding this on the spot and totally not even planning it though.

Again, there are some wording choice changes littered around, but nothing really significant (when I say small things, I mean things like Rita saying it's reckless for just the two of them to deal with this, versus the dub using "are you stupid?!". It basically changes nothing even if it is technically a difference, but I usually skip things like that because these posts would be even longer for changes that don't have a large impact).

As for the Yuri-Flynn-Repede battle, there were some... choice dialogue changes here.

Firstly, Yuri actually tells Flynn to be careful (rare carefulness from him, especially in regard to someone he knows can handle fighting).

Second, Flynn telling him not to worry was removed entirely.

Third, (this one is more difficult for me to completely discern because of the lack of text) Flynn mentions (you too, i.e. you be careful too) if Yuri keeps looking over (at him), that he won't be able to run to save Yuri fast enough (i.e. he'll get into trouble if he keeps staring at him).

Fourth, the dub changed Yuri saying he's just captivated by how handsome/good looking Flynn is (and I shit you not if Judith said that to Yuri people would call it flirting so yes, I am going to tell you that the dub censored men flirting here). The original wording used is "ii otoko", i.e. good/nice looking man, which in translation could come across a bit awkwardly and would be more likely to officially be translated to "handsome"... if they weren't so spooked at the idea of it and had to wipe it for "the great Flynn Scifo" which is not actually what was said. Personally I'd say "nice looking man" has a very specific ring to it versus handsome, but again, obviously that might sound a bit odd in translation without really specific wording (as in, it's possible to be used in a way that doesn't sound awkward but the wording leading up to it would probably have to be changed a little, or some words simply added in to make it flow more native-sounding).

Fifth, Flynn said it's not the time to be making jokes (the dub changed this to just "sh-shut up!").

Sixth, the goofy, playful tone Yuri carries when he says "I am being serious" was changed (very typical of the dub at this point though to remove his playfulness and I'm literally saying that objectively). Similarly, his following line's tone was also changed.

Seventh, "so we're kind of stuck". Yuri says he can't concentrate without talking, then ends (the battle conversation) with a following sentence of "it can't be helped!".

This could be translated in a few ways just to make it more clear what he's referring to (because a plain ol' "it can't be helped" is a bit too vague here), but you could translate that to something like "guess we can't help it", yadda yadda. My guess is that's where "we're kind of stuck" came from, but given the blatant trajectory change of the entire conversation, I'm not surprised I'm left feeling like the meaning of that line is just weird (primarily because he says that and the conversation abruptly ends, so they're not very stuck if Flynn won that one!) Something like "guess we can't help it/that's just how we are" etc imo would have done the job for translating that.

Flynn just sounds so, so happy and soft and my heart is full. Same dialogue in the dub, but the original audio was (imo much?) more lighthearted and so sweet and soft.

Made a clip of both their laughs because they're adorable and I love them.

No idea why the dub actually dropped her giving Yuri a whole ass honorific. Yeah, you can't always use JP suffixes in a dubbed game, but you can translate some of them to the closest thing they mean. Sodia here calls him "Yuri-...dono...", so rather than just dropping his last name in her accusatory tone, she calls him by only his first name and attaches a respectful term to his name.

Technically "dono" would mean "lord" or "master" in a non nobility manner, and is more of a formality than if she were to use, say, -san, which would have her referring to him as more of a regular/casual equal (-san is a suffix that often gets lost in translation, whereas dono can actually be roughly translated like it is here from this translator. Someone of her rank would still refer to others even equal to her rank as "sir" in translation, while people who use "dono" may also still use that term for people of their rank. Remember, at this point she's the second in command to the Commandant himself, so that's an awfully high bar for Yuri to have jumped in her eyes). Sodia has realized his actions have been just and honest and that she was very wrong about him, so as an indicator that she's changing her stance on him, she refers to him this way instead.

Basically, coming from someone of her rank, it's a very respectful term and is not used casually/in a casual relationship, much less to someone one dislikes or even hates (which she previously did, so this by itself is a massive step up in her view of him just from her suffix usage alone).

Honestly a huge shame that they didn't even translate this to "sir" in the dub when there was no reason not to. Just using that alone would have indicated a much higher level of respect from her toward him, and unfortunately that open respect is completely lost to dub only players (she only expresses her guilt, whereas in the original, just by using "dono" alone, she's indicated respect and not just guilt. In a way you could even argue that she's approaching him, someone she gives her respect to now, for advice and not just out of guilt alone).

In the dub this is only "it would have been easier if you'd blame me for this..." Here she's admitting she wants some form of punishment by way of saying she didn't receive it (which she could have from Yuri himself if he told Flynn what she did), but if she can't even have that, she at least would rather be hated. Basically, she's saying she wants to be hated if she can't at least be punished for her crime (and I believe you could also translate this to wishing she could be hated if she wasn't blamed for it, so basically they removed half the statement).

Also, in general, Sodia sounds very distraught.

Here Yuri admits he does have a grudge against her (you could translate this to something like "it's not like I don't hold a grudge against you"). The dub changed this to "don't think I'm doing this for your own good". Basically the dub is having him say he's making her live with her regret without mentioning that yes, he does in fact have a grudge against her for what she did.

The translation here is essentially the same (think about it for yourself. The dub just uses "go figure it out yourself").

The important part here comes in the form of how he refers to her. This is something he's done since he survived her stabbing him - not using a neutral form of "you" but instead openly using a rude form (in JP there are several ways of referring to oneself and others, similar to how Flynn alternates between boku and watashi when referring to himself).

In other words, Yuri is openly expressing disdain for her by using "teme". At this point he's been using it for a little while now (he also talks to her this way back in Nor at the inn as well), but since here it's with very other little dialogue and also because she just recently referred to him as "Yuri-dono", I think it's a perfect time to point it out, as they've openly, verbally switched how they treat each other.

Sodia, wracked with guilt and left unresolved, has a newfound respect for Yuri after their interaction at Nor (and presumably everything he's done for Flynn). Yuri, still angry at her for what she did and holding a grudge (a fact lost in the dub that he mentions in this scene as mentioned above, adding to this role reversal), now openly chastises her and expresses his contempt by changing how he refers to her.

NEXT!

Not gonna put a picture here for it, but when Rita asks Witcher where his notes are, she gets super excited and it's just cute and funny.

Also not putting a picture here for this one, but Flynn sounds extremely relaxed/calm/casual in JP when he asks if Yuri is all set/ready to talk. Something worth noting is that even at this point, the dub keeps Flynn sounding very uptight and serious where he otherwise is relaxed, calm or even emotional. I get the feeling the dub kind of missed the mark with Flynn's soft gentle side. I don't know how or why, but it's more absent in the dub where he's otherwise much more soft.

Similarly, not pictured because this isn't about the translation, Flynn trying to convince Yuri to tell everyone what he's done is given in a more angry-upset tone, versus the original's (super!) soft and sad tone. Again, I think they had a different perception of Flynn in mind when it comes to audio (particularly in arc 3 here because the other arcs are... again, their own whole can of worms), because here he's speaking sadly that Yuri won't take credit, whereas in the dub it's more energy-fueled and comes off much harsher. I have a video clip of that scene here. I felt like mentioning it here because overall Flynn can be extremely soft and gentle in tone and it got lost in the dub for whatever the reason was.

Still on that train of thought, while the translation itself is still pretty accurate, Flynn says "I'll just yell at you again" but in JP says that he'll just say unnecessary words. Earlier, in the dub Yuri asks why he's so serious when he doesn't actually mention that he's being serious in the original (because honestly, he wasn't. He was very calm when they set out). In this case it's not really negative (the way Yuri yelling at people in the dub is portrayed negatively on their end), it's just... a change that I can only guess they had the wrong idea about with him? Previously the changes with Flynn were treating him negatively, but here it's more just... a notable but narratively generally neutral tone difference.

Not making a clip just for this unless it's requested, but when Yuri wins the solo fight against Flynn, in the original, Yuri says it with actual shock but awareness/clarity that it actually happened (with a sort of underlying excited vibe to it). In the dub Yuri says it with more of a laugh and disbelief.

As for this point onward, since the subbed playthrough ended before this point, I'll be using another playthrough for images, though I'll be translating them here instead since they won't be pre-translated.

Sliiightly different vibe here so I figured I'd include it (doesn't really change anything): Here Flynn says "Even with a sword... I lost." The reason I'm including it is because "I can't even win with a sword anymore" makes it sound like Flynn has been losing again and again to Yuri in various ways when it's always been the opposite. Using a sword has always been one of his highest selling points, so to lose in that area comes across more as, even with my best asset I still lost to you.

Yuri's line is more like, "(laughs) Take a good look."

Running out of images I can use for this post here but I really don't want to make another part at this point in the game, but Flynn's following line is more along the lines of "be proud of yourself" (literally "raise your arms (in victory/pride)"), to which Yuri says the same thing in both versions (Flynn's dub line is "you've gotten better"). Including this because "you've gotten better" to me isn't really the same as telling Yuri to be proud of himself for the victory (something he'd never been able to do before). Since the dub came across as much more casual, I figured I'd add this part here too.

During Flynn and Patty's conversation, Flynn says "it's true there is no end to my worries." In the dub this was, "I have no want for trouble". This was probably a mix up of terms/intended meaning honestly, because Patty was basically saying he has a lot of burdens for being so young. It's not about trouble so much as he just has a lot on his mind and a lot to worry about in his current position.

Flynn proceeds to say he's made up his mind, basically saying he's made up his mind to accept those worries. In the dub, he says he's prepared to face it (the troubles), versus that he's made up his mind in accepting these new worries.

Patty's response is "made up your mind?" In the dub it's just "is that right?"

Flynn continues by saying in the end he'll have to worry a lot (more literally with all his might, so basically he'll be experiencing a whole lot of worries in the future) and that it will be a tough road, but he won't run away anymore.

I'm not sure why the dub used "path full of pain" since that sounds a lot more dramatic than "it will be a tough road". I imagine yeah, there will be pain in the future, but full of pain just sounds a bit... much? The dub also removed "anymore" from "won't run away anymore". Not sure what the idea behind that was.

Patty follows up saying it's admirable but that's no good, which the dub changed to a fish pun.

I'd also like to mention at this point, Flynn has completely dropped his use of "watashi" in favor of "boku" (he uses boku normally, but typically switched to watashi for formality/his status as a knight, which indicates he no longer feels the need to do this around Yuri's friends, and possibly does not feel the same level of distance he used to. At the very least it means he's allowing himself to be more of himself/more familiar and not viewing his position as a knight so formally).

Here Flynn says "thinking together, worrying together, and then one day realizing the world we dreamed of". Adding this since Flynn in the dub says "if we all work through our troubles together". It's kind of the same thing and kind of not, since in the original Flynn isn't mentioning "troubles" between anyone - simply the idea of everyone doing this together (the rest is basically the same in the dub).

Another change I'm not sure what it was for, but Ioder never mentions the Entelexeia specifically. He says this (what he's about to say) concerns the empire, guilds and everyone who lives in the world (which would include the Entelexeia by default, but literally everyone else too, which is the point because he's about to tell them about the blastia to start making plans). The dub never mentions about this affecting everyone in the world despite that being the whole reason he wants to talk to everyone about this.

Yuri calls Duke an "ignorant fool" here, rather than a "stubborn bastard", which I'm including because "ignorant" and "stubborn" aren't the same thing. Yes, Duke is stubborn about it, but in Yuri's eyes he's also being very ignorant of everything they're trying to tell him.

Not grabbing an image for this, but at the end of the game when Yuri is talking to Duke right after the battle, he's completely out of breath before and when he starts talking (the first line). Just a very nice touch!

In the dub Duke says Eluficer's wish was simply to protect the world and all living things. Here Duke says his wish is to protect the world and all living things with a good heart.

Also don't want to use an image here because of the image limit per post (especially because it's already tight even with me putting what images I can into "one" image as it is), but Yuri says "yeah, let's do it" (including the others), versus "I'm on it" in the dub at Flynn's prompting. Not a big change, but he does treat it as the whole group doing it together, which I find to be a nice touch for his character development.

Patty actually says "it- it stopped?!" The dub goofed and wrote "it's- it's over?!". The power of the blastia wasn't enough and its power was weakening.

Estelle says "No way, after we've come this far!". The dub changed this for some reason to "but how? There isn't any more!" in response to Rita instead of leaving it as it was.

Judith says "Please!" The dub used "It's gotta work!"

Flynn says "It's not over yet!" For some reason the dub used "This can't be how it ends!", which... idk, I feel like original Flynn has much more faith in it LOL.

Yuri says "Is it no good...?" Dub Yuri says "Dammit... come on!"

For the most part the rest is the same.

Adding this in because the old cutscene in the 360 version had to get changed to accommodate where Flynn was. Somewhat different than what we see with the other characters, you can see the power shoot out and push Flynn back as if it was grabbing the blastia itself, and you can see it pulled away from him (with everyone else we just see the blastia head toward the rest!).

Aside from that, Flynn says "you are my pride, dear friend" (the dub changed this to "I am so proud to call you my friend, Yuri Lowell").

The voice acting took me out with the happiness portrayed in Flynn's voice. (For just the Flynn part of the ending, I have a clip of that too, unsurprisingly.)

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Personal ending notes:

To sum it up briefly: I personally see a strong inserted bias put into the localization instead of just keeping things the way they were (i.e. changing context/character behavior to fit their bias despite that not being what the original context was, and inserting this into an official release). I say this because there are times when the translation is basically perfect, but there are very specific characters and instances where this suddenly changes, and unfortunately, there's a repetitive pattern that to me reads as intentional. Otherwise, I see no need for that to continuously happen only when select characters are involved.

As for the not so short version, y'all might be wondering why I mention things like it seems like they changed Yuri and berated Flynn so much on purpose. This is because the translation of this game sometimes can be astoundingly spot on. Perfect in some cases, even. There are times when the largest difference is just the wording itself and is simply given flavor, or uses a variety of wording so that sentences don't sound repetitive.

Yet when it comes to those two (individually but also between the two of them), the context quickly devolves into being either completely changed, the tones used are completely changed, and/or there's a slight alteration in the text that ends up giving a very particular notion that was not otherwise there (ex. "like a good knight" was added into Flynn's dialogue in a situation where he's being berated and yelled at, and it completely comes across as putting Flynn down the entire way through the conversation, versus him coming around and taking responsibility and that being accepted. In the original he simply mentions following his orders as a knight. There's no attempt to sound like the narrative itself is trying to insult him or bring him down).

I made these posts precisely because a heavy majority of the changed context involved them, and a lot of it either portrays Flynn in a negative light for the vast majority of the game which was not originally present, or it made Yuri come across as a much darker, scarier, "cool" type, which is a pretty stark contrast to his original personality/behavior.

Other things:

Yuri:

A lot of his lines come out neutral/flat, and that got even worse, like a hundred times worse, in his new DE lines. Yuri is pretty peppy in JP, and as a reference I would say his victory quotes are a big indicator of the personality shift ("cool" guy versus "silly" guy would be a big one for me). Other than that, Yuri is more silly and almost childish, sometimes even pretty pouty, and it shows blatantly right in his voice. He's also extremely not threatening to people who are not his enemy (liiike threatening Ioder with a real weapon with a serious voice).

I think the easiest way to explain this from my own perspective is that I adore JP Yuri completely. Dub Yuri I often find myself wanting to punch in the face for how he treats Flynn, Ioder and the one time, Leblanc. He lacks compassion in the dub where he otherwise does have it (even if it's not him being rude vocally/tonally, the dub dropped a load of emotional nuance in his voice). He's not a rough, overly cool edgy man (I hate people saying Yuri is an edgelord because damn if that ain't the farthest thing from the truth in JP, but it also shows how much they really leaned into that trope in the dub if people actually walked out of the game feeling that way about Yuri). He's a silly, goofy, caring man who is very gentle with people when they need a boost. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his "scary" dark moments, but the dub obviously leaned super far into it - enough that they would change Yuri mentioning punching someone to outright threatening to use a weapon against an unarmed man who is actually being quite polite.

Basically, he has a range of emotions and he has a lot of emotional intelligence. As one example, when he sees Karol down and sad when they first meet, he changes his tone to a combination of how you'd talk to a child with that child-y tone (he does this at the base of Halure's tree when he's asking Karol how to heal the tree), but then sometimes he shifts to actual gentle and soft to let Karol know he's there for him (when he's heading out to the woods to find the eggbear).

Ultimately, my point is that they took a perfectly well rounded character and changed him to, what? Fit their own bias/agenda/whatever? Because I can't look at both Yuris and be like "same person". I've never wanted to punch JP Yuri in the face. Only hugs here. What I'm saying is that I came out of both versions with two very different opinions on Yuri.

Next, Flynn (and Ioder and Leblanc).

Starting with Flynn, I get a very strong mindset of anti government shoved into the dub with these characters (i.e. not just the unnamed bad people in the government and the few named bad ones, but also directed toward the good ones, making it a more black and white approach). The dub makes Yuri out to be aggressive toward Flynn on the spot when they see each other again despite that in the original audio, he's not at all actually upset. He understands why Flynn is upset and that he's stressed out with his current mission. And no, the whole "Flynn swung a sword at him!" doesn't work here. Yuri knows Flynn. Very, very well. He reeeeally was not mad about that... especially if, you know, his tone in JP was anything to go by during and after. Flynn was the more upset one between the two, and Yuri remains calm - again, indicating his emotional intelligence and, most likely as it's not directly said, determining that being worked up about it would only cause Flynn more aggravation/stress. Thus, he doesn't press any buttons and remains calm. It makes his smile to Flynn later at Torim make that much more sense.

The thing is, I get the impression the dub wanted us rooting for Yuri and cheering for him digging into Flynn, when that was literally not the point of their interactions. We're not supposed to always blindly follow Yuri. Sometimes he is right, but sometimes Flynn is right. Like. That's it. That's the game. Not everything is simple or black and white. There's nuance.

That and/or like, someone in the loc team really hated Flynn. Based on everything, I'm... not against believing that at this point. Basically, the dub portrays Flynn in a negative light at most (arguably all) possible opportunities around every turn, even though the context/tone for that did not originally exist, until it couldn't anymore (i.e. he was past his character arc).

Ioder and Leblanc.

Ioder never does anything except keep Yuri in the loop, tell him important information and be genuinely happy to see him. There was never any vitriol between them. The way dub Yuri gives him an attitude just comes out of nowhere. Their relationship is pretty casual, which is pretty meaningful given that Ioder is on track to be on the emperor and Yuri is, plain and simple, a commoner. One who rescued Ioder, yes, but if Ioder was a "typical" noble in this game, he might have just brushed that off as "to be expected", even if Yuri didn't know he was saving a noble at first. Point being, Ioder is nothing but pleasant toward Yuri. Yuri has no reason to be rude, much less threaten him.

At Baction, JP Yuri is understanding that Leblanc needs to grieve and is in disbelief. He doesn't know if Leblanc will try to stop them, but he does offer his condolences with the tone of his voice, i.e. again: emotional intelligence. Something they changed in the dub to be nothing but rudeness and anger. Yuri made a statement to him at that moment, i.e. not to get in their way (mind you, again, he's polite about it given the situation), but not without understanding in his tone, which is a very common aspect of Yuri in his entirety. His wording (in general, not strictly with this specific scene) comes out rough and lacks politeness, but that's made up for in how he speaks to people (either relaxed, casual, gentle, etc).

In other words, the dub pretty much always slaps a point of view bias against these characters and uses Yuri as their proxy for it. Yuri, normally, in the original context, just treats them as human beings with ebb and flow in all of their emotions and situations. Things aren't black and white - humans are complex - and that is not the point of view that I feel we're given by way of dub Yuri. We're given a man who is constantly using anger in his voice toward imperial figures even when it's completely unwarranted, and even when he knows the people in question.

Other Stuff:

Assorted things are different mainly because of the acting, but Raven's goofiness got toned way down and Karol screams much... quieter, I guess you could say. They're both more lively in general though than how they were in the dub, so that's a plus from me too.

Rita is significantly softer with Estelle in JP, and she also is much more noticeably devastated about Raven's "death" and more panicked for Karol at Zopheir. I do love Michelle Ruff's portrayal and don't know that I truly have a preference, but I think a lot of Rita's emotional barrier breaking is truly expressed more in JP.

You know I gotta bring it up: Yuri and Flynn's relationship was kind of a mess in the dub. It gives the impression of Yuri being angry a lot more often than he ever actually is, and gives off the impression that we're supposed to dislike Flynn more than we're supposed to like him. Flynn isn't someone we're supposed to actively dislike, but the portrayal of him as expressed through dub Yuri does not come off as "we're supposed to like or root for this guy", when they're much closer than that in JP.

So yeah. The bulk of this is that Yuri is just not the same person to me between versions. Also, Vesperia has way more content in Japan (drama CDs galore frankly, and Yuri is still insanely popular in Japan and is thus a frequent character alt release in the gacha games and so has tons of voice lines and general story content, there's new merch of him every year because they make merch for the characters that have their voice actors showing up to TalesFes, etc).

There's much more ease in seeing JP Yuri's personality through all of it. I think it may be more difficult for people who don't understand Japanese or any Japanese at all, and that's such a shame to me because all those people get otherwise, without anyone posting about JP Yuri, is this... weird shell of Yuri that I sometimes even hesitate to call a shell because he just feels completely different to me.

Anyway uh I love Yuri (and Flynn) and that was the point of all this, but uh... if you made it this far thank you bunches and I hope people who maybe didn't like Yuri and/or Flynn who only knew the dub will change their perspectives. 🙇‍♀️

#GTF JP Vesperia Stuff #Yuri Lowell #you know... one of the best ways to express Yuri's differences is that I could never imagine dub Yuri's voice #coming out of Yuri's mouth with all the official artwork he gets in JP LOL #he's like. the most feminine nearly dainty motherfucker out of any of the guys (except like. Jay. who he's on par with LOL)#Japan out here putting bows+ribbons in his hair calling him Yuri hime in an anni skit and putting him in a dress in a drama CD and my god #but yeah regardless in the game the differences are... so much. SO so so so much vocal difference ESPECIALLY #there's just. a lot. and I feel like the dub did a MASSIVE disservice to Yuri as a character/as a person #similarly I'd say the same thing happened to Flynn with them doing a MASSIVE disservice to him in the same way #a LOT of Flynn's softness was flattened imo just... not as badly as everything about Yuri #JP Yuri is SUUUPER expressive in his tone and it's such an immersive experience #but also it like breaks my heart seeing how some ppl portray Yuri in the western fandom #esp with Flynn bc it's so so different from the JP fandom. and like again #it's bc the dub has Yuri being REALLY mean and rude to Flynn SO SO often #and he just sounds so bitchy so often when he's not supposed to at all!#there's so much to love abt JP Yuri and he's just... my silly little guy and I love him sm #and honestly my main problem isn't even with the character they made him out to be in the dub so much as #it's the fact that they changed him at all but also that they changed him and flattened him #like... I don't hate the character himself I hate what they did to create him bc it was at the cost of. well. -gestures-#I just think that JP Yuri is a significantly better character and it's a shame I think that at all bc #they shouldn't feel like two different characters at all but they do #I hope if you read this far that you'll give JP Yuri a chance bc he is SO precious and JP Flynn is ALSO SO precious #I wish I wasn't so upset abt what the dub did bc it'd make my life easier LOL #but I love my boys too much so... here we are I guess lol

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