#Bi Discourse

[a-polite-melody]

Oh actually.

Many of the tumblr queer “discourses” have centred around identities which are erased or invisible.

A common tactic of people trying to deny others language in these “discourses” has been to look at the people describing their less visible experiences with oppression, and then scream at them, “oh my god you just want to be oppressed SO badly!!”

It’s a direct weaponization of the invisibility of the experience to further erase that experience.

Basically an, “obviously, if this was a real problem we would have heard about it before now and so you’re making this up to seem oppressed, even though you’re telling us the reason we don’t see it is because of lack of visibility, we don’t believe you and are further going to erase your experiences.”

[hiriamcdaniels]

Don't make me tap the sign

[posting-stuffies]

Original | Exclu comments

Exclus went full circle.

"I'm attracted to one gender" -> "I am bisexual". Lolgic!

[kiwisandpearls]

swinging a bat at a hornet’s nest but I really need to exorcise these demons from my brain:

I genuinely want to understand where people who say the pansexual label is biphobic are coming from. I do. I do want to understand why some people so are critical of the pansexual label. But at the same time I just…I don’t know, I don’t think a person choosing to use the pansexual label over the bisexual label is them being inherently biphobic.

and there’s also the fact that to me this discourse seems…kind of pointless. Like I don’t wanna call it infighting but at a point it does genuinely feel like infighting in the queer community.

I don’t know, maybe I can get humbled or educated, I’m genuinely cool with that here, but I just…this feels kind of pointless.

[dummygothicc]

what if...instead of blaming bi women for men's behaviour towards lesbians...we blamed MEN for men's behaviour towards lesbians...just a thought...don't mind me...

[rotationalsymmetry]

Ok, but also: there aren't bi spaces.

I mean, there are now, online, you can follow exclusively battleax bi tumblr blogs if you really want to for some reason or hang out in a bisexual Facebook group that spends most of its time yelling at people for not talking about non-binary people the right way or go to r/bisexuality and post about lemon bars and movies that have hot actors and actresses.

But in person?

Just over ten years ago, in San Francisco (the city whose flag might as well be the rainbow one) I ended a five year relationship and decided that I needed to figure a few things out about myself, and that one of those things had to do with being bi, so I looked over the LGBT Community Center's calendar and found one bisexual event, a monthly support group. When I went to the support group (a few times, until I stopped going when I decided it wasn't really what I wanted or needed and they didn't even have tea) I found out about a casual social group of bisexuals who met for I don't remember, brunch or dinner or something at a particular time, and went, but that was under six people typically and they were significantly older than I was and somehow significantly even less cool, and I stopped going. That, and a bisexual contingent at the Pride march, are the only in person bisexual events I've ever been to. Or heard of.

(The kink community has "pansexual" play parties. But, that doesn't mean play parties for pansexuals, it means play parties that are open to people of all sexual orientations. In contrast to the queer men's and once in a blue moon queer women's/eh people in that ballpark parties. The vast majority of the play at these events is between men and women, although that doesn't necessarily mean the people playing are straight and quite a lot of them aren't.) (just for clarification; I have never heard of any events or spaces specifically designated for pansexual people. Granted I haven't looked recently? But I'd be surprised, bisexual is still by far the more popular/common label.)

While there can be a lot of informal social groups that have a high percentage of bi people in them, there just isn't a bi culture that wasn't just made up by someone on the internet in the past ten years.

And god if you've had different experiences please argue with me, I would genuinely like to hear about it. But yeah, that's my experience. That spaces that might create some sort of bi culture, that offline bi spaces, are rare and spread out enough to essentially not exist. Not in the way that "lesbian culture" (the bars the bookstores the dating scenes the robust social groups the printing presses the significant chunk of "gay and lesbian" spaces) (in quotes because "lesbian spaces" never have and never will exclusively contain women who like women and don't like men) exists. Bisexual women get straight land and lesbian land. We're binational. We don't have our own land.

[chaos-in-one]

Battleaxe bis are so funnily hypocritical because they'll yell at pan people about how bi historically included attraction to all genders so the pan label is biphobic

Yet you'll never see them acknowledge that historically multi gender attraction was included in lesbianism or say that the bi label is lesbiphobic because lesbianism historically included their attraction

They only care about history when it benefits their ideology

[seraphic-sapphic-safehaven]

Reading all the hate in the pan-related tags is seriously getting me down and making me so sad for my fellow pan people, so let me say this to y'all:

Fuck what these assholes are saying. We are better than that, better than them for not sinking to that level, and better than the hurtful things they say and believe! We don't deserve this. We don't deserve to have our identities repeatedly and constantly scrutinized, torn apart, and tossed aside. We don't deserve to have people post hate in our positivity tags. We don't deserve to be harassed and ridiculed for having a different identity. We. Deserve. Better.

We deserve love, kindness, understanding, and acceptance. We deserve to be part of the overall queer community, to share it with those who call themselves "more palatable, more acceptable" queer people. WE ARE PART OF THE LGBTQ+! WE BELONG HERE, TOO!

It's not the fault of every single pan person if one of us doesn't understand what pan means and/or has been told the wrong definition of it. It doesn't automatically make that person or the rest of us inherently transphobic, enbyphobic, biphobic jerks. Misunderstandings happen, and people spread false information due to confusion or hate. But that doesn't mean we're all bigoted, and it doesn't mean we want to be pitted against bi people or any other mspecs. We simply want to coexist and be allowed to use the labels we feel fit us the most.

A little lesson for y'all... Bi and pan are not and never have been the same. Bi includes trans/nonbinary people, and it always has. Pan includes them, too, which it always has as well. One is not better than the other, but neither is the exact same as the other. Pan simply means "attraction to ALL genders, regardless of gender," while bi is "attraction to two OR MORE genders." Bi CAN include all genders, yes, but it doesn't have to if the person claiming the label doesn't want it to. But pan ALWAYS includes all genders. So yes, they are different, and no, saying that doesn't make anyone rude or hateful or biphobic or panphobic. And there's nothing wrong with pointing out differences (nor similarities) between each other.

Really, it breaks my heart to see so much in-fighting STILL going on after years and years of it. I know it can be frustrating on both sides, but we have to stop. We don't have to be friends, we don't even have to like each other, but we have got to stop throwing hate at each other. We're all part of this community, we all belong here, and we all deserve to feel safe here. No matter how you feel towards each other, please realize that while we're all different with different genders and orientations, we have much more in common than you think. We all face discrimination from cishets; we're all fighting for equal human rights; and we're all just trying to make our way, find ourselves, and exist in a world where many people hate us simply for who we are.

Please, I know it's hard, but please try to be better to each other. Please show each other love and kindness when you can, and if you can't, please leave each other be. Sending love, light, and good vibes to each and every one of you out there 🩷

[mirukosbitchywife]

just so we're all clear if you post bi vs lesbian discourse or bi women hating on lesbians/vice versa i am blowing you up in my mind. every time i see one of those posts my urge to sloppily make out with a bi woman increases. your discourse can't stop me. im kissing every normal bi woman/enby directly on the mouth right now actually. we're gonna have sex on your bed later btw

[a-polite-melody]

Imagine seeing an oppressed group of people saying, “hey we’re oppressed in ways that you’re unaware of for A Reason—erasure,”

and responding by going, “actually it’s because that oppression doesn’t exist,” like you’re So Obviously Correct and not directly contributing to The Problem.

[flootzavut]

"Yes, I know respectability politics has never worked before, but it'll work this time, I swear."

"Yes, I know that I'm using arguments that were used against gay people before, but this time I'm right."

"Yes, I know that exclusionists have been wrong before, but this time I'm right."

"Yes, I know making ourselves small to placate bigots has never worked before, but this time it will."

Can we just not? Can we just learn from history for once?

[bisexualsdeservebetter]

I feel like if I had a nickle for every time somebody making a stupid argument in my inbox on anon attempted to use their bisexuality as a gotcha against me I would live in a mansion and drive a Ferrari. Do I really need to keep repeating the whole "no group is a monolith" thing? Because I really thought we all understood that it applies to bisexuals too.

There are plenty of bisexuals out there who disagree with me on a variety of things both related and unrelated to bisexuality/LGBT discourse. Me being bisexual doesn't automatically make me correct about bi discourse and somebody who disagrees with me about bi discourse being bisexual doesn't automatically disprove any of my points. I've never claimed that all bisexual people think like me, it should be obvious that they don't.

[luz-bi-love]

I think it’s absolutely crazy how most Anti-Lunter Lumity shippers will try to take Lunter down by saying “Luz already has a girlfriend!” But then in that same breathe in that same mindset, say absolutely nothing about the Willuz ship.

Why? Because Willow is a girl and Hunter is a guy. Luz is a Bi character who has shown attraction towards both male and female characters. And being against her being shipped with someone of the opposite gender really gives biphobia.

[radhyena]

Bi people who say “even if I’m in a relationship with [the opposite gender] my relationship is still queer!” I’m convinced have never dated someone of the same sex.

Because I’ve done both! And I wasn’t even living in a super homophobic place but there is a tangible fucking difference between being in a same sex relationship than being in an opposite sex one.

You notice people look at you different, you have to question if you can hold her hand on a date or if the people walking towards you on the street will say something. Introducing her to people in my life came with this fear that they might say something ignorant, or might just straight up not be okay with it.

And that’s not to say that relationship was worse, no I consider my relationship with her my best relationship. But it certainly wasn’t the same.

I’m always gonna be bisexual, but when I’m dating a man? That’s a straight fucking relationship.

[n1ghtm3ds]

[bi-sapphics]

I think I used to follow your old blog, and I have some good faith questions: 1. What made you become more incluse IRT to LGBT discourse? 2. Do you consider "bi/mspec dyke" to be separate from "bi/mspec lesbian"? (I personally do think bi women can use butch/femme or reclaim dyke but consider these different and the latter concept is harmful) 3. Why are you against trans-friend radfems/gender criticals? (not radfem, I'm critical of them) 4. Do you consider Febfem problematic by proxy?

you mean p-c? yeah. fun fact: i actually plan to move again once i turn 18 in a few months.

anyways this post took me a while to write lmao, i wanted to make sure i got everything down perfectly, both so that it helps you and so that i can refer back to it in the future.

1. this post should answer your first question, though i think i forgot to include that the bi community has always been tied in solidarity with other queer communities that are often excluded (such as ace/aro + trans), and biphobia more often than not parallels harmful rhetoric to other ‘xphobias’ that lie outside of the LG(B). if exclusionists successfully eliminate the TQIA+, then no matter what they tell you or genuinely believe about themselves, they’re not gonna stop there. bisexuals are inevitably next, whether it’s right at the front of the line or somewhere down along it.

2. that same post mentions and explains why i don’t actively have anything against ‘mspec’/bi lesbians. i consider it a separate identity from ‘bi dyke’ because that’s how labels work, every label is a little different from another and definitions + experiences simply vary from person to person. however, functionally, no i don’t consider them any different. people can be and are bi lesbians for the exact same reason(s) that they can be and are bi dykes, and you can’t easily argue for or against one without inherently doing the same for the other. if you’re really, genuinely interested in my thoughts on this since you’re asking in good faith, i would personally recommend this post + this tag, which both explain how being an ‘mspec’ lesbian actually works. it’s also important to remember that ‘lesbian’ used to mean all wlw/nblw/sapphics and belonged to us too before it didn’t, which we didn’t actually have any say in. if you agree that the separatism movement was harmful to bisexual women, and that bisexual women also have the right to claim butch and femme for ourselves due to them having been our terms while we were considered lesbians, then everything falls apart and becomes inconsistent when you don’t agree with bi women also being lesbians if they so choose to be. it’s that simple, honestly.

3. because radfems and gender-criticals don’t support trans(-identified) people back. all trans people, be them transfem, transmasc, transneu, or anything else along the spectrum, are victims of this type of activism and always have been. i think it’s okay and acceptable to have basic views that align with women’s liberation and combatting worldwide misogynistic oppression without aligning with radfems directly, since they have an inherent connotation as their own separate group of activists that harm others just by being associated with the idea. whether or not you believe in trans rights and, by extension, whether or not you put a disclaimer that you believe in trans rights, you’re still signing up to hurt trans people by proclaiming yourself a radfem. that’s part of the contract, especially since many of them have recently admitted on twitter that the most important priority of feminism is taking down “gender ideology”, rather than most common feminist factors that address fighting in favor of women across the world. to be quite honest, i don’t have the means to strongly expand on exactly how trans activism is incompatible with radfem activism, but i’m sure blogs such as @genderkoolaid​ could hit the nail on the head with it for you!

4. if you haven’t already guessed following the third question, realistically yes i do. theoretically i think it shouldn’t, as to me it’s a nice-looking and nice-sounding label, as well as the fact being that there’s nothing wrong with being a bisexual woman seeking to date only other women ─ that’s what i do myself, which is exactly why i coined camellian! but, again, ‘febfem’ is a label that is inherently by nature tied with radical feminism and gender criticism (and any belief system or passive alliance related to them).  the community was created by and for those people (i’m positive this is one of the very first posts regarding the term - the one in the screenshot, anyway), which makes it harmful to position yourself with. i do like the flags though, and their creativity.

i hope this helps! i’m not even sure how much i trust some random anon in my inbox (lol lmao) but all of the information i shared is stuff i’ve posted about before, so i tried to be as honest and open as possible with it.

RADFEMS + GENCRITS DO NOT INTERACT. DO NOT COMMENT, DO NOT REBLOG, I WILL BLOCK AND NOT RESPOND. THIS IS A BOUNDARY THAT I EXPECT YOU TO BE ABLE TO RESPECT. LEAVE ME ALONE AND I WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE. I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU SO THERE’S NO NEED TO ENGAGE. JUST BLOCK ME FIRST AND MOVE ON. THANKS.

i don’t want to see lots of red-highlighted tumblr blogs in my mentions and i don’t have the energy to argue, so just fuck off for the love of god!