#freeing 7000 vampire spawn

[vyncentevelyn]

Tits out. Covered in blood. This is all I want.

[grey-wardens]

the duality of man

[thedomesticanthropologist]

Astarion never felt full. Vampires tend not to, unending blood thirst being a well known aspect of their condition, but he wasn't JUST hungry due to his condition

He was starved. Then, through "food", he was tortured.

You cannot die from being starved when you are undead. Starvation cannot kill a corpse. We see this in his year of isolation. We see this in the 7000 Spawn locked in the dungeons without a drop of blood fed to a single one of them since their capture.

What Astarion WAS fed, was putrid rats and bugs. Lets stsrt with the rats. Putrid.

"Putrid" refers to something that is decomposed, rotten, or emitting a foul and unpleasant odor. It is often used to describe decaying organic matter or anything that has undergone significant deterioration.

This would have taken effort to produce on Cazadors part. Rats are easy to come by, with his labyrinthine temple beneath an expansive estate. To gather a rat is an easy thing. He has many servants. To gather a putrid, rotten animal is another. This would require gathering the animals via trap, letting them rot for days, and then providing them to Astarion. They could have been caught in droves, or a few at a time and laid out in the kitchens or pantries or within the closets to be gathered as a treat-meets-torment for the Spawn, but it required FORETHOUGHT and TIME. Animals do not /rot/ in a day.

Then there is bugs. The type of bug you'd expect to find within the kennels of the mansion would be your fairly typical selection of Ants, Spiders, Beetles, Flies, Silverfish, Mosquitoes, Centipedes, Cockroaches.

Each of these has up to a few MICRO LITRES of blood, which would be accessed by biting them and sucking on their entire corpse until you've got what you can get out of them. the amount of blood in these small insects is typically not enough for a human to taste. Vampire Spawn? Hard to say.

The feeding of these creatures to Cazadors Spawn would be for the purpose of torture alone, in my opinion. There is no way that they would provide relief or sustenance in any meaningful way. The rats, depending on their freshness (which I would argue was sometimes more or less fresh depending on when it was caught) would be the primary source of "reward/hunger suppression", and the bugs something eaten due to sheer desperation.

Let's look at rats and decomp now!

The blood of a decomposing rat undergoes changes as part of the decomposition process. Initially, bacterial and enzymatic activity breaks down the blood, and its nutritional content diminishes. The precise timing can vary based on environmental conditions, such as temperature and humidity.

As decomposition progresses, the breakdown of organic matter continues, and any remaining nutrients in the blood become less accessible and less nutritious. It's challenging to pinpoint an exact timeframe, as it depends on various factors influencing the decomposition rate.

This means that if served a particularly rotten rat, Astarion could very well face the reality of its poisoned, rotten blood providing him with NOTHING beyond disgusting flavor. Keeping in mind this is all based on guesswork about how Vampire Spawn can obtain what they need to sustain themselves based on nutrition alone, when there's evidence its also *life force* that they absorb from their victims, which also would not be available in a dead victim/animal

And then suddenly, after 200 years of this, 200 years of having to fuck the food he cannot have, pressing his face against flesh that throbs and POUNDS underneath his touch from him administering pleasure that sets his targets hearts to THUDDING, veins pushing litres of sustenance through them in ways he would be incredibly attuned to but unable to access,

After 200 years of rotten, unsustainable dead blood

He's free. Surrounded by living animals- that boar, which he drained dry in one night, for example. Total blood volume of a swine (couldn't get boar on Google, but it's comparative) is 60 ml/kg or 6.0 % of total body weight. The average weight being from 60kg-100kg depending on sex and size. So let's say he drained a 75kg boar.

That means the night he snuck off, he exanguinated (completely drained) an animal of roughly 9 POUNDS OF BLOOD

Impressive

Let's go to the Bear, now. Cave bears are actually extinct, so I'm gonna go with grizzly bear but feel free to do your own math. He took down between 130kg-270kg of bear depending on its sex. Let's say 200kg for ease. As roughly 6%-8% of any mammal is its blood, I'm gonna use the Boar 6% from before to average the blood Astarion would have drank.

Total in pounds: 26.455

HE DRANK

26 POUNDS OF BLOOD FROM ONE ANIMAL IN ONE NIGHT

All my research on these numbers is from Google and a calculator so forgive me if I'm off. But I'd say this is evidence of binging after starvation, as well as solid evidence that Vampires absorb blood differently than humans drinking fluids, so I'd HAVE to assume it evaporates within him or is consumed in its entirety and converted to energy magically cause there's NO way a body could absorb all of that and just "get drunk"

Anyways thanks for coming to my Ted Talk about vampires, Astarion, starvation, and blood volumes in your average mammal. 🫡

[kirain]

I saw a comment of yours about Ascended Astarion and I just wanted to say him sacrificing 7000 bloodthirsty vampires that can't control their bloodlust isn't a bad thing. If anything it's a mercy killing. People enjoy Ascended Astarion because it's cathartic for a lot of people who've suffered similar abuse. You lack empathy.

I think you may have the wrong person, because I've never commented on ascended Astarion. The only time I've come relatively close was when I discussed Neil Newbon's stance on him in the comments of a viral post, where a Tumblr user got mad at him for saying, "Meh. He's not for me." And even then, I made it abundantly clear that I don't have a problem with people who enjoy ascended Astarion. I was more so defending Neil for having a preference, which he's allowed to have. Is that what you're talking about? Because I haven't discussed ascended Astarion anywhere else. 😅

As for your comment ... what? First of all, an unconsensual sacrifice isn't a mercy killing, it's murder. They didn't want to die. Those innocent people—and yes, they are innocent; Cazador captured and enslaved them—don't simply die. As per the infernal contract, they go to hell. Specifically to Mephistopheles, the second most powerful and cruel archdevil in the hells. They will suffer for all eternity. That's not merciful. Personally, I'd rather be an undead spawn who has to drink rat blood every now and then.

Second, if you feel that way about all those spawn, then you should keep the same energy for Astarion, because he's the same as them. The only difference is they haven't had a chance to live in the real world or learn to control their hunger. Now, I do agree setting thousands of spawn loose on the Sword Coast is a lot, and potentially dangerous for the living, but the Gur will keep an eye on them, as is their oath. If you let them go, you give them a choice. They're still slaves to their hunger, and they likely always will be, but they get to choose how to satisfy it. If they truly can't resist harming others, then the Gur (and paladins) will surely kill them; which sounds horrible, but at least they'll be spared a gruesome afterlife.

Cazador took their choice away, as he did with Astarion. If they deserve to die, if they don't deserve a chance to prove they can live peacefully in Faerûn, then the same goes for Astarion. That's part of what makes his ascension so hypocritical. He's no better than Cazador, in the sense that he takes their agency away and uses them for the exact same purpose. Those spawn even could've been Astarion. He just so happened to be the "lucky" one who had a parasite crawl into his head. He's special to the player because we know him, but he could've been any of his siblings. He is all 7,006 of those spawn.

I will admit I didn't ascend Astarion, as I personally think it's the worst path for him, but you have it backwards. I didn't deny him ascension because I lack empathy. I denied him ascension because all I have is empathy, and that extends to characters who aren't the main focus of the game. You do what makes you happy, but I don't think becoming the worst version of yourself is healing, and I care about Astarion (and the people around him) too much to watch him continue the cycle. Sebastian, Dalyria, Chessa, all the others trapped in the cages—they have names and they're victims, too. For me, the most cathartic moment of Astarion's quest was when he realised it and set them free.

[marielle555]

Anti-AA headcanons and gaslighting. Picking apart the online mythology around Ascension. Part 2.

No. There's nothing wrong with the soul of the adorable biting sunshine. The “AA lost his soul” gaslighting was based on one line Karlach said for UA (“He could've had it all, but he kept his soul”). That's all there is to the “losing his soul” theme in the game. A metaphor expressing Karlach's personal opinion, and not even in AA's direction, but as praise for Astarion refusing the ritual. There is no mention of “losing his soul” in the game, on the contrary, Astarion says that Mephistopheles has no power over him.

That's Why Ascended Astarion DOESN'T Lose His Soul | Baldur's Gate 3

When Raphael tells Astarion about the Ascension ritual, there is no mention of Cazador sacrificing his soul or of Cazador pledging his soul to Mephistopheles. “Lord Cazador will need to sacrifice a number of souls, including all of his vampiric spawn, if he is to ascend.” There is also no indication in the description of the ritual that the one performing the ritual is sacrificing their own soul.

The words of the ritual are in Latin:

“Ecce dominus!

Has animas offero in sacrificio...

Nunc volo potestatem quam pollicitus es mihi...”

Translated as:

“Behold, Lord!

I offer these souls in sacrifice...

Now I want the power that you promised me...”

When Astarion carves the scars on Cazador's back and takes the staff, he becomes the beneficiary of the ritual and Cazador will be consumed, Cazador's soul will be sacrificed to Mephistopheles, but not Astarion's soul. Astarion's scars don't glow, when he performs the ritual, but the scars on the backs of the other spawns do.

We can see the soul sphere of an Ascended Astarion, if he dies in battle. And resurrect him. The resurrection process itself is the return of the soul to the body.

By the way, if Astarion “lost his soul and became evil” after the ritual, then we would have to meet the extremely evil Wyll, who also lost his soul after making a deal with Mizora. It would be very convenient for the devils, if anyone who made a deal with them, would lose their soul right away, and do evil right and left of their own free will. There would be no need for any punishments, no rewards, no incentives for the contracted person to make them work well.

Especially since Astarion, unlike Wyll, doesn't make a permanent contract with the devil. “Souls for power” is a one-time deal, just like the ‘killing Jurgir in exchange for information’ we had with Raphael, only the price and reward is higher. If you have something to offer the devil besides your own soul, you may well have a one-time mutually beneficial deal with him. Mephistopheles is also called “the god of lawyers and contracts”. "Mephistopheles is possibly the most lawful being in existence. Mephistopheles hates those who would lie, and for him to commit a lie would violate a deep aspect of his own nature. If Mephistopheles commits to something, it can be counted on to be done". This is true lawful evil. He does not lie and abides by the contract to the letter. If the contract says 7000 souls, he will not take 7001 - that would be a breach of contract. Mephistopheles always abides by the contract.

The story about “losing a soul” in principle does not work in the world of Faerûn and contradicts the lore of DnD, of course, among the haters there are no Dungeon Masters, who studied the lore on this topic and made adventures, competently introducing necromancy into them. In DnD in general, the soul is you. Any thinking being has a soul. After death, your soul is sent to The Fields of the Dead, which means you will be there, but your body can be raised as undead by some necromancer, but you won't know about it. The lich places their soul in a phylactery - the phylactery is a focuser and the phylactery allows the necromancer to interact with the body, controlling it with magic. The soul is essentially your self, the body is the physical host. Death knights have their soul contained in a sword, destroy the sword and you destroy the knight. A creature without a soul is a zombie that is controlled directly by a necromancer, there is simply no personality in these remains.

You can't lose a soul, a soul can be stolen, a soul can be completely split or destroyed (devils have soul coins, the material for The Wall of the Faithless are the souls of non-believers in the gods, who gradually become part of the wall) - this is real death, nothing. There are creatures without a soul - a magic skull (this skull will be stupider than the one in which the soul is enclosed, but will be able to speak coherently and follow instructions). If the skull is bound as a familiar, it uses its master's soul. You can steal a soul and encase it in something. You can weave several souls together in one body, endowing the subject with the desired qualities, but if the ritual is unsuccessful, we will end up with something similar to a split/personality disorder, as the souls will fight for control of the body with each other.

Withers talks about illithids not having souls, but for some reason no one claims that Karlach or Tav, who became illithid, lost their souls. According to DnD canon, no one loses their soul, in DnD the gods basically can't get the soul of an illithid, but not because they don't have a soul, but because illithids came to our world from a distant plane called the Far Realm. The souls of these beings seek to return back to the Far Realm after death, even though that plane is quite far away. But the gods cannot do anything about the souls of these beings, the gods have no power over them. Weathers says that illithids have no souls, since he himself is an aspect of Jergal, these souls are useless to the gods, you could say that for the gods these souls sort of don't exist. And yes, for the gods the “grand design” is very dangerous, because they really won't get new souls.

A deal with the devil of the same type as our Ascension worked perfectly in the movie Pirates of the Caribbean. When Jack made a deal with the sea devil Davy Jones - Jones made Jack captain of the Black Pearl, in return he would give him his soul after a specified time - Jack was obligated to serve a hundred years on Jones' ship, the Flying Dutchman. Then Jack, instead of paying, offered him a hundred souls instead of himself and renegotiated the deal. Other people's souls in exchange for a benefit for himself - differs from Astarion's Ascension only in the number of souls and the size of the reward, Astarion's both of which would be greater than Jack's. And no one hated Jack Sparrow for it! Everyone was laughing and enjoying the spectacle. Sparrow himself had made a deal with the sea devil, he wasn't threatened by any spawn's fate, he himself had cheated people, recruiting them into his team to pay off the devil. Why is he allowed, but Astarion is Cazador 2.0? 100 souls is certainly less than 7000 (though doomed beforehand, by Cazador, not Astarion), but the importance of what the ritual gives is higher for Astarion than just being able to have a cool ship for free for Jack.

P.S. Anti-AA headcanons and gaslighting. Picking apart the online mythology around Ascension. Part 1. “Cazador 2.0.”

[alpaca-clouds]

That Awkwardness Among The Vampire Spawn

Something I am thinking about way too much in regards of Cazador's main spawn and also the 7000 souls is all that trauma - and how they are gonna deal in the "vampires spawns live, Astarion remains a spawn" ending.

Because we know two things about the spawn under Cazador:

Cazador made his seven main spawn torture each other at times to play out his power over them.

Some of those 7000 souls meant for sacrifice very probably have raped whoever went to seduce them, while they due to their commands could not fight back.

And I might be too much of a sucker for good whump, but this idea and the implications live rent-free in my head. Because how are those poeple going to deal with each other?

I mean, it is pretty clear from the interactions we get, that Cazador did the good old abuser tactic of trying to get his seven main spawn to work against each other. We know that this was more successful in some regards than in others. It seems Astarion was mostly austracized from the other spawn, and it seems that the others are not necessarily friends, but there are some among them who are closer with each other than others.

And yet, that is already something they gotta deal with, if they gotta stay together for now. Especially as they will have some trauma among each toher - and possibly quite a lot of unhealthy relationships in general. Especially if you realized that they most probably have tortured each other. Sure, it was not their fault, because bloody mindcontrol, but that does not lessen the trauma, right?

And then there is the other thing.

Like, one way or another basically any sexual interaction that the spawn had with their victims was sexual assault, because they were trafficked and unable to consent or say "no". This is something I brought up a lot more in Bound by Blood. Because... While some of the victims would have definitely have had sex with those spawn thinking it was consensual, there would be some who did not give a shit. And it was not as if Cazador cared, right? Be it stuff where the spawn had been forced into some sort of kink they definitely did not want, or be it just outright rape.

Meanwhile, of course, the other way around the spawn tricked those people into a situation where they thought those people were to be killed, while Cazador turned them into vampires without their consent, of course. And this led to them being half-starved in those dungeons. (Also: Let's face it, given how sadistic Cazador was, I would not put it past him to torture some of those 7000 just for shits and giggles.)

And all of that overhead... It will lead to so much pain, won't it? When they all need to learn how to deal with each other. There is just so much hurt there.

Like, how do you deal with a person who tortured you, even though it was not their decision? How do you deal with a person who raped you, when they thought it was consensual? How to you deal with the person, who raped you, because they fucking didn't care? How do you deal with that person, while also knowing that in the end they got put through hell because of it, even though you did not know about that until recently?

So... Yes, that is a lot, right? And it makes for a lot of confused feelings.

Admittedly, in Wishing Well (which is my story about Astarion finally meeting up with the other spawn a year after the end of the game) I do focus mostly on Astarion and Sebastian in that regard, I do bring it more into Bound by Blood, where Aurelia is dealing with several of those people.

I will also admit: I find it almost a bit sad how underexplored this topic is in fanfiction. I know, I know, I am one of the few who actually obsesses about the other spawn in the first place, but... As I said, I find it kinda sad.

[mistercrowbar]

I keep thinking about Ascended Aldriin, how he built an empire then took it all. I am assuming he did it through poison and being dramatic, since he can and probably did orchestrate it all to appear as an accident.

*However*, my brain won't leave me alone about this. Astarion is still alive, he's just trapped in Aldriin's hair like the most whiny hair pin.

Keep your friends close and your enemies/former lovers closer lmaoooo

I've seen the "spawn tav poisons ascended astarion to free theirself" thing go around a couple times and I think people underestimate how hard it would be to take down a vampire ascendant at full power. BG3 doesn't show us this so I can't really blame folks who aren't familiar with the 5e vampire statblock. A full vampire regenerates 20HP per turn (ascendant likely more) and if you do drop it to 0, it turns to mist and goes back to its coffin to recover. Both of these are normally halted by sunlight or running water, but the ascendant doesn't have those weaknesses! You would want one of those "dies immediately at 0HP" spells like Immolate or Disintegrate, and you better make sure you've burnt through the vampire's Legendary Resistance first. Like there's good reason Ascended Astarion is so full of himself, he can brute force through most encounters.

There's also that if you Disintegrated Ascended Astarion, well there goes all the power of the Ascendant and all those 7000 souls were condemned for nothing. That's just wasteful, and Aldiirn doesn't like waste. Aldiirn's going to find out about the Rite of Perfect Slaughter, and use that to take the power Astarion's been misusing. And he's going to do it in front of everyone.

Astarion wants all the power and glory, debauchery and hedonism, not be bogged down with paperwork and boring drudgery it takes to run an empire. He's content to leave that to Aldiirn who does it so well. Astarion gets so complacent he doesn't realise he's become a figurehead while Aldiirn makes all the decisions. The soirees and galas are perfect for distracting Astarion and giving cover to the favours Aldiirn calls in. The only reaction Astarion's disappearance in the middle of the party gets is shrugs. The empire moves on without a hiccup. There's more relief that he's gone than anything.

One way I do think a poison would be handy is a paralytic, one of those ones that provokes multiple saves. Vampires don't have any condition immunities and it would burn through Legendary Resistance. I can definitely see Aldiirn using that to get Astarion in place for the Rite of Perfect Slaughter. He'd still call on help since being a spawn, under Astarion's control, makes him vulnerable there.

Honestly I love this AU and so want to do something with it but I don't want to lose momentum with canon comics. So many ideas only two hands…

How does the Rite of Perfect Slaughter work? I don't know but I have a few thoughts mulling around. I think a setup similar to the black mass would be fitting. Basically mug Astarion at the party and get him in the basement for the rite. Astarion became like Cazador, he deserves to go out like Cazador.

Aldiirn's inner circle would definitely know he usurped Astarion. To the rest he gives some statement about an untimely passing. People offer condolences and move on quick. Main point is that no one would care about Astarion being gone. There'd more likely be cheering. Ascended Astarion is like ol' musko - thinks he's hot shit but knows nothing and the only enterprises he has that thrive are the ones built on keeping him distracted like a toddler. Now that Ascended Aldiirn doesn't need to waste resources on distracting his former master, he can start amassing some real political and economical power. Treat all of Baldur's Gate like a puppet show.

He misses the Underdark.

[ladonnaalata]

I've seen somewhere an HC that Astarion lied to Tav about the extent of Cazador's abuse and that in reality Cazador was a caring and affectionate master.

Can we not do that?

Can we not woobify a villain just like we woobify Astarion?

I think there can be a middle ground between victim blaming Astarion and seeing him as this defenseless little flower who could never hurt a fly.

Cazador is an abuser. Period. Even if he tortured his spawns once in centuries, that is still abuse.

Even if he forced them to sleep with strangers once, that is still rape and it's still abuse.

Even if he entered their minds to control their bodies or thoughts once, it's still abuse.

Even if he gave them rats once, that's still abuse.

And we are quite sure he didn't do any of those things only once in several decades or centuries, as the game shows us.

Even if one doesn't want to believe Astarion (and it's weird because he has zero motivations to lie as the outcome of his life would still be the same: be free from slavery), there are plenty of other testimonies in the game that do that for him.

The servant speaking of the "horrible things" Cazador will do to him once he gets back, the fact that if you handle him back to Cazador he gets skinned alive and turned into a zombie, the siblings who hunt him who are completely subjugated to Cazador's mind control, the kennels and the rough torture instruments scattered around, the simple fact that this man carved personally an infernal mark on the back of his spawns for them to be "consumed", as that is for his own admission their ultimate purpose. He forced his spawns to fetch children as prey for mere revenge reasons and killed the daughter of one his spawns and left the corpse to rot in an abandoned bedchamber. He has a diary in which he records his "special obsession" and punishments he reserved for Astarion. He imprisoned 7000 people and left them to starve in a cage for centuries.

Now, if we want to HC that Cazador still has humanity left in him, and that he doesn't always have gorish violent outbursts we might indeed do that. Two hundred years is a very long time and probably even a Vampire Lord gets tired of the same sadistic routine.

There is no doubt that in his own mind Cazador is doing the right thing and is convinced he was spoiling his spawn, because he probably had it worse during his spawn times. He was impaled for eleven years, he had one of his friends killed under his eyes, and he was probably the only spawn of Vellioth, meaning he was the only one his master could obsess over and torment relentlessly. But his idea of "kindness" is his own perception of himself. It's his own point of view which is completely narcissistic and does nothing to take in consideration the torments of his spawn, even for a while.

We might also think that sometimes he understood pain and suffering and used to comfort his spawns via affectionate gestures but that would hardly be any retribution for torments he himself has inflicted. If anything it would indicate a personality disorder in which sadism and guilt mingle together to create this unpredictable ambivalent monster who acts sweet and caring one day and might skin you alive the next.

Cazador is not good, Cazador is not caring. He is a turbulent, complex, disturbed man with his own demons and painful past, we might feel sad for him, feel compassion for him and appreciate his character without forgetting that overall he's still a sadistic vampire lord who genuinely takes pleasure in others people's pain and treats his slaves as objects to satisfy his whims.

Astarion might be a liar and a manipulator but he lies to bring Tav on his side, seduce them and obtain protection because he's scared his vampirism might get him killed. And overall because that's what he's been taught to do in order to fetch dinner. That's in itself already proof of abuse and trauma response behaviour. But it's obvious when he's lying and when he's not, the game makes it super clear he's only playing with Tav about sleeping together, and Tav is equally amused at his attempts (you get the opportunity to tell him he's silly and a liar).

When he speaks about Cazador, there is no hyperbole in his words. He stops at describing some very specific episodes and vague suggestions, but he never gets overboard in trying to spur compassion or horror in Tav about his past abuse. He casually speaks about his scars when Tav sees them for the first time, and his demeanour is falsely lighthearted, like he's forcing himself to talk about them only because Tav asked. ("Now let's go, if I can't see them you certainly can't"). As a matter of fact, he's reclutant to speak about his past and we can only get him to open up if we choose the romance path and get to deepen our bond with him.

Astarion is selfish and arrogant, he comes from a noble background so it was certainly tough for him to accept and adapt to some things. He's an instigator and a yapper so no doubt he did what he could to annoy Cazador and get on his bad side from time to time. We can even HC he knew the Szarrs and always wanted eternal life without considering the cost, but in my opinion this shouldn't invalidate what Cazador did and how it impacted him. Trauma is also subjective and different for everyone, if for Astarion 200 years of enslavement have been a lot, another would be scarred for life at the mere thought of hunting a victim or at mere touch of a rusty knife on skin.

I think that simplifying this gothic horror which is Baldur's Gate 3's vampiric lore does a disservice to the player and we should take it for what it is: an horrifying story of power, corruption and control, maybe even envy, obsession and sexual attraction but please don't throw in feelings like "care", "gentleness" or "love" because those aren't present if not in the shape of another form of control and psychological manipulation and its still a completely toxic and abusive relationship.

[morallygreychaoticneutral]

The 7000 Spawn Conundrum .

Had a reply to a reply in regards to how nobody is talking about the consequences of releasing 7000 spawn into the Underdark.

So lets start a pot! rummage rummage rummage Ah! The Emperor's 7 Treasures it is! Black and green tea with rose and sunflower petals. Not sure why its called seven when there are only four things in it but, oh well what the hell.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them."

William Shakespeare

That is the question, isn't it. To be the one who releases 7000 spawn into the Underdark and let them live, or not to be the one who releases 7000 spawn into the Underdark and destroy them.

WARNING: Game Spoilers, Topics of sex, Abuse, Murder, Torture and Adult themes and language. Not underage appropriate.

This is not fact. Just opinion based off my own and game experience. As always, how anybody cannon their relationships or behaviors is perfectly right! No blame, no shame, it's your game!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And welcome to another round of difficult choices. How anybody decided this is through their own lens and filter and neither right nor wrong in their choosing.

Here is why I was ok with the decision to let them go.

Lets be honest about the dark impulses of humanity. You could release seven thousand humans and get the same outcome. No they are not biting people, well..some might be, but the "how" of how someone choses to unalive someone else is a moot point. The outcome is the same. Those aligned with destructive violence will choose destructive violence. You need only look out into our own world to see that truth.

So, you have 7000 vampire spawn on your hands. Do you kill them all out of fear for what a few might do? Or do you allow them to make their own choices and let fate decide?

For me, the issue with destroying the spawn was you are also destroying the ones who would not chose a life of evil intention. You are taking away their chance to make a life because their neighbor might be bad.

I have always hated the punish the whole for the act of the one mindset. I've been on the receiving end of that more than once and It is absolute equine grass byproduct.

Sebastion was a good example of this. He had been down there for 170 years and still had control of his mind. His first concern wasn't blood, but that his family and friends were gone.

"My family-my friends-they're gone.."

He wasn't "mad" or craven. He wasn't snapping and rattling the bars of the cage like a feral animal to get to rip out anybody's throat. What he was was angry, tired and hopeless. And rightfully so. The fact that he could hold a cognitive conversation was key to me. They did not present as mindless beasts, they were just people suffering.

"I just know I don't want to die down here, please. I just want to breath free air one last time."

Now, I'm sure there were a few in there feral, but I don't think it was possible to open one door at a time and sort them all out. Opening the flood gates was the only option. So again, its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

But there were a few hints as to if it was a good choice or not.

First, Astarion is unhappy about the decision when you talk to him about it the next day. He laments that they should have been given a chance to make the choice just as he had.

"But he called them feral and said they could cause incredible carnage. Why would he suddenly care? "

Because, deep down, he didn't actually believe that. Not for all of them anyway. Honestly given his ability to talk himself into things, he was absolutely creating justifications to make sacrificing them easier to bare if he went thought with the ritual.

"Better they serve a purpose."

Hard to feel ok about killing something you consider sentient vs an mindless dangerous animal. And at that time, he was terrified of them. Imagine being surrounded by all the people you had ever wronged. How would you feel about it?

Second: When you find the children again, Gandrel (if you let him live in the swamp) and Kass thank you for letting them live.

This the most fucked up part of this whole situation. Those littles are now forever stuck at whatever age they are. Kass seems to have accepted it but Chessa is still battling her reality. But, as they age "mentally" they can eventually make a decision about if they wish to live as the are or leave for the astral plane.

"I did not expect you to free us. But I am grateful. Thank you for your mercy..Thank you for everything."

Third, the epilogue. Through the letters you learn that the children are doing well with the use of animal blood and medicine to help them overcome their cravings. And the city of spawn are also doing well and are grateful to have the choice to walk their own paths.

These are all read a positive outcomes to this difficult choice. The spawn are free to chose and build their own lives regardless of how any one else thinks they should live it. If they want to live, they live. If they want to die, they die. If they want to be monsters, they live as one. Etc ect. No choice is free of consequence. Even "good" ones.

"Pretty to think that is possible. But how would you feed thousands of vampires in a city?"

Not all seven thousand spawn made it. So how many are collected there is unknow. Over time a herd of Deep Rothe' can be shepherded and raised as blood animals. Like a Dairy farm but blood instead of milk. The larger the heard the more blood that could be produced over time.

Yes, I know, It's not vegan friendly but they are vampires loves. There is no plant option here.

The meat and products made from them could be sold to the surface. They could also establish trade agreements with the city butchers. A bit of gold for blood that would otherwise be dumped into the rivers and septic systems.

And we all know, given our fandom nature, there is no shortage of people who would get in line to be "pome de sang's" either.

Yes, I'm looking at all you kinky little juice boxes. You know who you are. I’m kidding of course. That would require alot of scrolls or a lot of clerics.

Anyway, feeding them would, in time, be sorted out in a way that is sustainable.

Also, they would not be adding to the population at an exponential rate. They are all spawn so they can't make more vampires. It wouldn't be everybody mating and birthing 100 or more new babies a year either. I know Dhampir's are suggested, but the occurrences would be rare.

Would there be pockets of corruption and gangs of violent ideals? Sure, those happen in any society. But as Leader of the city Astarion states they are delt with. Just like wolf packs, if you are putting the success and survival of the pack in danger with your bullshit behaviors your going to get removed from the pack.

"Ok, that's all well and good but what about the Underdark?"

Im sure there was an impact on the Underdark after the wave hit, but if you recall there are a plethora of gargantuan baddies down there and those spawn have not been training for months to battle them.

And you could warn the Myconids through the spores to be on the defense should they reach them. A couple well placed timmask spores and bibberbangs and the problem is solved. Ha ah! Booom!

The Duergar can fend for themselves as well as they are known to have impenetrable fortresses.

Any that make it to the City to cause problems will be handled by the vast amount of adventurers and hero's running around.

Honestly, if you are gong to loose a legion of vampires anywhere the Underdark would be the least impacted.

The point is there are pro's and cons to every decision. Peace and violence in every ecosystem.

Pick your hard.

And again, however one chose is right for how they viewed the situation within their universe.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm late for the book club.

[thechaoticdruid]

Welcome to my humble party!~

[My Astarion Fanfic Masterlist]

Just call me Druid since I really have no intention of revealing my real name for the foreseeable future.

I decided to make a masterlist just to help organize my stuff!

~Original Characters for story or RP stuff~

Winnifred The Druid -My Tav

Arva Nightshade -Winnie's closest pre-tadpole friend.

Fi The Hornless -A talented bard and a member of Arva's pack. She helped look after a juvenile Winnie.

Elora Ancunin -Under developement...

RP Note: Winnie is currently open to answering questions from all of you beautiful people! She is an open book so do not be afraid to ask away! Astarion may even make an appearance in the reply depending on the question. No he will not bite you, Araj! Just make sure to label your ask; Dear Winnie, Question for Winnie, Hey Winnie, I dare Winnie to, etc, and we will let the fun begin!

More NSFW type questions are accepted, but only by people who have their age visible on their blogs. Minors attempting to ask or anons without any age identification will be blocked/ignored. (Also let's try not to ask anything too gross okay.... I'm into some weird stuff but you know limits, my dude.)

~During campaign Winnie fics Masterlist~

[Click Here Darling~]

~Multi-part Fanfics~

[This Bites] Astarion x Chubby Female MC

A young woman ends up literally stuck with a fictional vampire from her newest video game obsession! She now must deal with keeping him safe and hidden all the while dealing with stress from her shitty stepdad.

Chapters: 1, 2, 3 ,4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9

Valentine's Day Special: Eat Your Heart!

This Bites: Christmas Special!

[The Spawn Vs The Ascendant] (Fem) Tav x Astarion(s).

Astarion and his lover Tav are happily together after defeating Cazador and freeing 7000 vampire spawn into the Underdark. They are now preparing to take on the Elderbrain when an Astarion look alike, claiming to be 'The Vampire Ascendant' appears and demands the Spawn hand Tav over to him.

Parts: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4

The Spawn vs Tav vs The Ascendant: A smutty one-shot that doesn't really take place in any particular time during the events of TSvTA. MDNI 18+ (Though if I'm honest it probably takes place post story.)

[Firsts] (Named!Fem! Tav x Astarion) Winnie has noticed her vampiric companion had been acting much more aggressively flirtatious lately. Of course, he flirted with everyone, this was common sense. But ever since Winnie had given him a taste of her blood it seemed she was the main target of his affections. Which quite frankly confused the hells out of the young druid. He couldn't actually be interested in her? Could he?

MDNI 18+ There is smut! The second half involves the Tiefling party!

[1/2] [2/2]

[Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts] (Chubby F!Tav x Astarion) After failing yet again to find a good lead on the Ring of the Sunwalker Tav and Astarion return to their current and hopefully temporary home in the Underdark only to be greeted by a distress signal from an old friend and an invitation to extravagant soiree hosted by an eccentric stranger!

Chapters: One ,

~Headcanon lists!~

[Astarion x chubby!reader headcanons!] (GN! Reader)

[🍿Watching movies with Astarion!🍿] (GN! Reader)

[BG3 companions babysitting your kids!] (GN! Reader)

[Telling the companions baby news!] (GN! Reader)

[Meet the Parents!] (A fun little writing challenge I put together. I wrote up headcanons of Astarion meeting my Tav's parents and Winnie meeting Astarion's parents.)

[Astarion's Teddy 🧸] (A little HC about Winnie giving Star a plush.)

~Other~

[All Wrapped up!] A short AstarionxF!Tav Christmas one-shot inspired by my God-awful ability to wrap presents.

[We'll Protect Each Other] While staying at an inn in the Underdark Tav and Astarion are forced to protect each other. Tav defends her lover's honor which later leads to a visit in the night from a familiar face. (Protective! Tav x Astarion One-Shot.)

[The Bite Scene] A rewrite of Astarion's bite camp event with my Tav, Winnie. It was basically a draft from my abandoned long fic.

[The Monster Hunter] Happens right before the The Bite Scene. It's a rewrite of the encounter with Gandrel out in the bog. Another draft from my abandoned long fic that I just decided to share.

[Indulging Curiosity] (F!Tav x Astarion SMUT MDNI) After a particularly bloody battle with a pack of gnolls Astarion finds himself rather hot and bothered seeing his favorite little druid absolutely drenched in blood. Unable to help himself he invites her to join him for an evening of pleasure where he indulges in some of Tav's sexual curiosities.

[Seriously, now!?] (Named!Tav x Astarion, period comfort fic) After causing a scene, embarrassing and being shouted at by the party's own resident wizard, Winnie storms off alone to sulk. Her monthly bleeding is upon her and making everything seem so much worse! But perhaps her vampiric lover can make it all better? (MDNI, slight smut at the end.)

[Forever] A requested rewrite of the camp event where Astarion's siblings come to kidnap him, but featuring Winnie!

[Delicious] (Named!Tav x Astarion) While camping in the Underdark the tadpole crew gather around the fire telling stories to pass the time. One way or another they turn into tales of old lovers. Which brings up a curious question? How come Winnie had no lovers before Astarion? (MDNI SMUT AT END)

~Taglists~

[This Bites] Comment on the latest chapter to be added!

[Winnie during BG3] Comment here to be tagged whenever I drop any fics that take place during Baldur's Gate 3 campaign!

[The Spawn Vs The Ascendant] Comment here to be added to the taglist, but hurry! This fic will soon be complete!

Ao3 Account Though most of my stuff will probably be updated here on Tumblr first!

Blog Rules ig: Okay so I normally try to promote positivity it's why my fics are mostly comedy based. That being said, anyone who comes here acting like an asshat is getting blocked. I don't tolerate homophobia, heterophobia, biphobia, panphobia or really any kind of discrimination towards anyone's sexuality. Transphobic behavior is also unacceptable and will result in a block. Racism, or sexism of any kind is also not tolerated, understand? We're all going to be friends here. Treat people the way you want to be treated.

Requests???

Hi, friendly neighborhood Druid here. My ADHD gives me a shit ton of trouble writing so I'm real iffy about doing requests of any kind. That being said, I'm currently only taking specific requests involving Astarion x my Tav Winnie where I rewrite a scene from the in game campaign. I've already done the Tiefling Party so that is out of the question. And so is anything post Act 3 final boss. I'm also honestly just open to chatting through the asks.

-Druid

[baldurs-gape]

Gap in the Resume

In a way, Gale should have been grateful to Elminster, the man had pulled strings to get him the interview. Life was all well and good but he did feel a little guilty for relying so heavily on Astarion, not to mention it was setting a bad example that they made ends meet through skills of theft and contract killings. Determined to make an honest life, Gale had started job hunting once life had started to settle a bit and his hands weren't quite so full. Brushing out an invisible wrinkle from his tunic, he waited on the creaky leather sofa. Finally, the door opened.

"Mr. Dekarios?"

Standing so quickly his vision speckled, Gale tried to look confident as he approached the Dean of the school. It wasn't Blackstaff, he couldn't go back there, not after everything but a less prestigious school might just be what he needed.

"Good to meet you, and please, call me Gale." He shook hands with her eagerly and settled on the even less comfortable chair by the impressive desk.

"Elminster has talked highly about you and your skills. It made me think that perhaps you were a little too modest on your CV."

"Yes, well, some things are easier to explain in words than with in on paper."

The Dean looked at him over her glasses with a smile. "Well, here's your chance, Gale. Why would an ex-Chosen of Mystra herself want to teach at our school of all places?"

Rather than say that he was scraping the barrell and needed his old mentor's help in getting honest work, Gale tried to smile, cleared his throat and straightened his back. He'd rehearsed this, it was going to be fine, smooth even."

"Teaching has been somewhat thrust upon me in the last eight years or so. It's a little difficult to always keep track of time in the Underdark. It wasn't a career I had ever really entertained until I got firsthand experience of how rewarding it could be."

So far so good, the Dean nodded along and settled back with a more relaxed posture. Emboldened, Gale decided it was better to throw in some examples to back his words up.

"Perhaps my proudest moment as a teacher was when I took a small group on an expedition towards Lenore's tower and we encountered yet another minotaur - I swear they are the cockroaches of the Underdark - and the six with me made a meal of it." The somewhat puzzled look he received had him rushing to explain. "Before it would have been a lot of snapping and snarling at each other, more blood wasted than drank. Sebastian had a nasty habit of trying to claw the eyes out of anyone who so much as was near him when drinking. Yet there he was, happily sharing the bounty with five others!"

"Mr. Dekarios, Gale-" the Dean held up a finger, "-just what exactly do you teach? I was under the impression you were a wizard."

"I am!" Indignant, Gale huffed. "But you try teaching magic to 7000 feral vampire spawn. Manners had to come first."

"Seven. Thousand. Vampire. Spawn."

Nodding with vigour, Gale's arms came into play as he began to explain.

"We were responsible for them after freeing them. Well, first we had to sort out the Netherbrain while the Gur rounded them up and kept them safe from everyone including themselves. It wasn't like we could abandon them. I happen to take responsibility very seriously. It began with a book club for the more recently turned and those interested and just grew from there." Barely stopping to take a breath, he continued, "Trust me, I wanted to show them the wonders of magic but some of them couldn't even read, a tracesty if you ask me."

A strained smile appeared on the Dean's face. She sat primly, hands clasped on the table between them.

"Did this happen after your status as Chosen was revoke?"

"Yes. Well, not immediately. I spent a year trying to tame the Netherese orb in my chest." At that, the Dean looked alarmed. "Don't worry, it's all taken care of now, it's old news. But for a year I worked heavily on the research of the elimination of Netherese fragments bonded to a human entity. Alas before I could refine my findings and publish, a Nautiloid snatched me up as I was hanging my washing. Now, I know mindflayers don't have emotions in the same capacity but it was downright rude. Then they put the tadpole in my brain."

By that point the strained smile had fallen away and the Dean was outright alarmed, edging away from the table and away from Gale. Off script and caught up in the story, he wasn't slowing down.

"Anyway, you've probably heard of the Baldur's Gate Netherbrain incident. That was me and a couple of others who are now good friends of mine. But try putting that on a resume. It wasn't relevant to teaching magic really. I don't want to walk into the classroom as some mighty hero, I just want to be normal and treated as such. And now the spawn as all mostly settled, I feel I can leave them without fear of any incidents. I did so enjoy teaching them that I thought; why not? I could do this with young people. They'll probably be more likely to singe off your eyebrows by mistake than try to drain you of blood. Much cheaper if you ask me, scrolls of revivify used to make up a good 70% of our weekly expenses."

Tirade over, Gale leaned back in his chair and sighed, glad to have got that all out. A little sheepish at having gone so far off script, he offered a tiny smile. "Do you have any other questions about the gap in my resume? Because I don't think I touched on the mental health of students. Mystra demanded repeatedly that I kill myself. It is safe to say I wouldn't ever be anything but accepting and nurturing of even the most frustrating minds in the classroom. They're safe with me."

"Actually," the Dean's voice was a little breathy, "I think you've been very informative, thank you. I can let you know the outcome of the interview in the next tenday once all interviews for the position have concluded. Thank you so much for coming in today."

She stood and Gale copied. This time she didn't stand close to usher him out the room, a rather large amount of space was left between them. Gale's heart sank. It wasn't the first time an interview ended so abruptly and with such false smiles. Nodding, he turned to the door and left.

Outside, Astarion was leaning against the wall, covered from head to toe for safety.

"How did it go?" he asked.

Sadly, Gale shook his head and deflated. "I went off script. At least she didn't call security I guess?"

"Not to worry. We'll find a place. Hells, we could probably even found it, the Underdark Academy, a place for the unruly to come and be transformed into etiquette experts. What do you think?"

Laughing, Gale bumped their shoulders and sighed, trying to let go of the disappointment that had settled in his gut.

"You say the sweetest things to me, don't you?"

Their hands tangled until fingers interlaced and Astarion pulled it up to press a kiss to the back of Gale's. This job wasn't to be but that was alright. They had all the time in the world to figure it all out. And for Gale to discover that while he was in the interview, Astarion had stolen anything that moved from the school.

[vorestarr]

just always thinking about Astarion's ever-present hunger and how it's the first thing he comments on after ascension. ("I... I can't feel it. That ache in my stomach, that hunger - It's gone.")

thinking about how such a key aspect of Cazador's control and torture was keeping the spawn hungry. the seven in his house forbidden from eating thinking creatures, Astarion fed a diet of rats only, the 7000 below not fed at all.

and how Astarion's first time feeding on a thinking creature is because he's testing whether the tadpole that lets him walk in the sun also freed him from Cazador's control. how he finds himself thinking about the blood of whoever he's talking to in casual conversations. how he keeps fully draining the animals he hunts, and even drains a bear in one night. how he kills the player character when he feeds from them for the first time if they don't stop him. how if the player sleeps with him and agrees to let him drink from them during sex, it's a huge approval boost. all the little comments about his hunger throughout the game -- if you dig up the tiefling grave in the grove he remarks that it's not fresh but he'll keep it in mind if he needs a snack later, in the mausoleum he quips "bodies bodies everywhere but not a drop to drink" about the skeletons, if you read his mind before ascension he's thinking about the smell of blood all around, the examples go on and on.

it seems like such a critical part of his internal state to me. he lives his entire undead life in a state of constant hunger, and when he's finally free to eat his fill, he's also hyper-aware of how the people around him may turn on him or try to kill him for how he eats -- he emphasizes that he feeds on animals when he confesses his vampirism to the player, even when he's caught almost feeding from them in the middle of the night.

i just think that must be such a powerful motivation. this need that is constantly at the surface, that he is constantly aware of and consciously not acting on, and that was also used against him, to control him, for centuries.

and i think it's so fascinating from a character perspective that he doesn't feed from humanoids not because of any moral issue, but because he was forbidden and physically could not do it. (Dalyria tried to drink from the girl you find in Cazador's mansion and she was physically sick, retching and choking.) he doesn't drink from humanoids when traveling with the companions if the player specifically forbids it, because he recognizes he needs the party and he's willing to put up with this to stay with the group.

but he's always thinking about it.

and then all of that, plus the fact that when he confronts Cazador, he views his options as killing Cazador without performing the ritual or killing Cazador by performing the ritual. he seemingly never even thinks of the idea that he could drink Cazador's blood, and that feels pretty significant too.

[qwainte]

How can we fix the vampire spawn dilemma?

The biggest problem with the vampire spawn dilemma presented to you in Act 3 after you stop Astarion from ascending is that there is seemingly no downside to freeing the 7000 feral spawn into the world. We get a passing mention in Sebastian's epilogue letter of the spawn feeding on everything that moves once they reach the Underdark, but that's it. Despite Astarion's concerns, the spawn never endanger the people of Baldur's Gate and one could easily assume that they stuck to the wilds of the Underdark, feeding on animals and monsters.

So, how could we fix this without launching a whole spawn invasion side plot on top of the impending doom of the Absolute's army?

The solution is Cazador's staff: Woe.

Woe has the ability to control any vampire bound to the ritual without the need for compulsion (we witness this when Caz uses the staff to move Astarion to his ritual spot). After Cazador is killed, Astarion should be presented with a new option to give the feral spawn their freedom but with a cost. His siblings could use Woe to directly control the spawn and safely lead them into the Underdark so they can build a society of their own without endangering the people of Baldur's Gate. However, this would take away the feral spawn's autonomy once again, and would rely on you to trust that the main spawn aren't going to abuse Woe's power.

Every one of these spawn were victims of Astarion or his siblings, so they have motivation to use Woe to their advantage to ensure their safety. Even after all 7000 spawn learned to control their hunger there would still be a risk that Dalyria or any of the others will refuse to break the staff. They're vampires after all. They aren't nearly as predisposed to evil as true vampires, but all vampires are driven by selfish ambition; that's a big part of their curse.

[whoppert]

I have a WIP fic for this but just in case it rots in my computer (pls don't steal it)

Unasended Astarion, who frees the vampire spawn and follows them to the Underdark at the end of the game

at first he's paralyzed by depression that he's stuck here in the dark. it's not fair (it really isnt) but over time he realises that the spawn have made a little community and they consider him a... folk hero????

He's shocked and they're like obviously u r a hero, u freed 7000 slaves and killed their master like how much more hero do you get? They give him big fancy titles and he LOVES that - Astarion Breaker of Chains, Freedom Giver, Protector of the Helpless, Light in the Darkness.

He doesn't really believe them (he certainly doesn't tell them how close he got to killing them all) but he'll let them sing his praises.

This sends him into a further depression spiral because this was his fault, he brought these people to Cazador, he's the reason they were enslaved in the first place. He really has to learn to regulate his emotions and process things in a healthy way and for the first time he has more than just his friends but a whole town's worth of people to help him. They're particularly sympathetic to his brand of trauma and help him feel less alone.

Only eventually he starts believing them. Why can't he be a hero?

Overtime he starts to really care about this little community :) he's the defacto leader (even tho he hates that) and so any issues are his to deal with. I like to think they build a town in the Underdark and Astarion's familiarity to the Myconids means they help (they could not give two shits about spawn in the Underdark because they don't eat mushrooms). He and his siblings council the feral spawn until they learn to control themselves, teaching them that it's their decision if they want to feed on animals or people but there are strict rules about what people they can feed on (mostly bad people but there is no short supply of horny drow that are willing to be fed on). When threats come to the village, Astarion is leading the charge against their enemies (not everyone is pleased to have the spawn in the Underdark even if they are being pretty responsible about it). He's learning about Gur culture from the child spawns and learns the error of his racist ways.

Eventually, he becomes the Folk Hero.

He negotiates freedom for Underdark Gnomes ('Do you want 7000 Vampire Spawns let loose in Menzoberranzan? Cause I'll release them. Free your slaves or I'll have my children bring me the heads of all the Great Drow Houses.')

He works with Gale to enchant their little town to have a day/night cycle (it's not sunlight, just light because he misses it) and the City of Spawn is the only place in the entirety of the Underdark you can feel the warmth of the 'sun' on your skin

His friends come to visit and he is so changed for the better. He's happy, he's joyful. He no longer worries about spending eternity alone. He reclaimed his soul, something he thought lost to Cazador entirely

In 1000 years the Underdark is a fundamentally better place - all because he's there

[bhaalsdeepbat]

Some Astarion Endings Thoughts. This is mostly just analysis ramblings and going over the endings and how Ascended Astarion and Spawn Astarion differ.

You have the free the spawn ending, where the cycle of abuse is ended and the Player Character chose to give the other spawn a chance to either be the monster they were made to be OR try to be more than that. And it isn't a perfect solution because, yes, they're rabid, starving vampires. There is always a chance that choice goes wrong, especially if player choices led to the Gur being wiped out AND the other 6 spawn being killed during the ritual.

Mercy killing, not sacrificing the spawn, is seen as an equally good choice, though it's complicated for the reasons stated above. None of the Spawn are there by choice and mercy-killing them takes away the freedom and autonomy that Astarion was very lucky to have even experienced. It's a hard decision, but the characters recognize it was either this or risk unleashing a HOARD of ravenous Spawn. The Underdark is uniquely qualified to be home to 7000+ hungry Vampire Spawn, but not everyone is going to go down there. In fact, if you send the spawn there, you find out not all of them even make it to where they decide to settle.

Mercy killing the spawn ensures no one else can be hurt by any of the spawn, whether it be their bloodthirst or violence as a reaction to the cruelty they experienced. However, the spawn made by Cazador ARE all innocent people. If you play Oath of Devotion Paladin and mercy kill the spawn, you will break your Oath because every single victim of his is just that. A victim. Astarion has a few moments throughout the story where he tries to convince the player - and himself - that not all of Cazador's victims could be innocents, but they very much are.

Astarion desperately doesn't want to see himself in them. The spawn in the cells are a reflection of what he was like when Cazador had him locked in that tomb or when Cazador had him starving on bugs and rats, and he has NO idea what he looks like anymore. I'm not even sure he's fully convinced he doesn't look partially like that tbh

The third option for Astarion's spawn ending is to just leave the other spawn in their prisons, which is seen as a really fucking cruel fate. Killing them is better than just leaving them there to starve for the rest of their eternal lives. This is also Astarion's cruelest choice, the one he makes to spite the player AND the other spawn because of how helpless he feels if he's not properly convinced to give up the power that was just within his grasp. If he cannot be fully free of Cazador and the pain he caused, then none of the other spawn can, either.

Regardless of the player's decision on what to do with the spawn, if Astarion is kept a spawn, he's able to empathize with the other victims of Cazador and see himself in them. He is forced to contend with the fact that NONE of them deserved to be caught in Cazador's cruelty. In his Spawn ending, he sees the other spawn for what they are: victims of a cruel man trying to play power games by using people as pawns and currency.

Ascension is meant to represent locking into the cycle of abuse. For Astarion, this first step is achieved by sacrificing over seven thousand souls. This move alone changes the Spawn from representations of himself, and the depths of the horrors he experienced, into currency to trade for the power to ensure he will never be in that position ever again. Rather than victims of the same horrors, they become a necessary price to pay in service of elevating him to a station above their own.

And he does see himself as a being above everyone else once he Ascends. He sees mortals as cattle. Potential pets or food, but animals that need to be herded all the same.

This includes Tav/Durge.

The whole plan to seduce Tav/Durge was born from the person Astarion was while still reeling from two centuries of of Hell. It was habits and survival instincts from living under Cazador that start to unravel when the reality of it all starts to set in. You catch peeks of who he is behind his carefully constructed mask of charm and prepared scripts, poison delivered with sweet words and a perfectly composed smile.

When he confesses, he wants to give Tav/Durge something real, but it also a mirror to what will happen in his diverging pathways. If he remains Spawn, he can give them something real. They're equal, loving partners. Ascended Astarion sees their partner as a potential pet to be loved, lavished, but ultimately owned.

The ownership is for a couple of reasons. One is so that he can ensure he has someone who will never turn on him. It's clear he has an alignment shift to being straight up evil and wants to conquer...and he talks about it in front of Faerun's best monster hunters. He needs to make sure Tav/Durge isn't included in that. He also wants to make sure they never leave him. Since he never faces what Cazador did, nor does he face the fact that things ARE changing and it's generally a good thing for people to grow and relationships to change with that growth, he wants to make sure things remain in stasis. Spawn Astarion trusts Tav/Durge to not do anything to hurt him and trusts the future they have together, whatever that may be. Turning them into a Spawn when Astarion Ascends ensures that there IS no change. Ever. Tav/Durge and the relationship are quite literally frozen in time.

Once Astarion Ascends, he stops seeing any of his companions as anything but potential pawns. His Origin Ascended ending provides an excellent glimpse at how he views the companions. Their collective strength is just ripe for plucking and he isn't afraid to make them spawn by force. I think the coldness the player can comment on after he Ascends is because he no longer feels any kinship toward the companions. He can create a script and run through it, but there won't be warmth where his beating heart is still rotted to its core.

Ascending him also starts him on the path to becoming another Cazador. If you go into the room with Vellioth's skull AFTER the ritual, rather than before, you get specific interactions with the various items that are WILDLY different from Spawnstarion (who also reacts differently depending on if it's before or after the ritual).

Astarion shows hesitation if taken into the room BEFORE the ritual, because he's forced to see the names of the people he has to sacrifice to ascend AND he sees how pathetic Cazador is when it comes to Vellioth. If you interact with the list of names or Vellioth's skull after choosing NOT to ascend, Astarion shows more remorse and empathy.

and as a side note THAT is who he is beneath the burden of his pain, when he is able start freeing himself from it. cazador's symbol is the knot of rats. Astarion sees the knot and cannot see himself in it, even though he himself is just one of the rats who happened to escape.

Ascended Astarion, on the other hand, is flippant. There's a list of names of ALL the spawn he sacrificed to ascended, and he just. He doesn't take seriously AT ALL that he just sent all those souls to be tormented in the Hells. Ascended Astarion never sees himself as a rat to begin with. He sees himself as a victim, but the others caught in Cazador's trap were all unfortunates and other bad words he can use to make them seem less deserving of empathy (empathy that he no longer has, when he ascends imo)

Astarion spent the first two acts feeling like he needed to rely on them for protection because he never felt his own strength was enough, even though his kit is fucking BROKEN. Ascending him affirms that he wasn't strong enough to protect them in any meaningful way as is, and also that no part of him was enough as just a spawn. He doesn't want to continue to rely on the player for protection, but Ascended Astarion is more than happy to make the most powerful beings in Faerun his spawn so they can keep him protected. All that power from the ritual, and he wants an army of powerful Spawn to do the dirty work for him.

As an extension of this, turning romanced Tav/Durge into a spawn is to make sure he has complete control over the one person he views as stronger than himself. Slaying Cazador is something he always credits to the player. Ascended Astarion is constantly haunted by Cazador and what he did. Tav/Durge was the one being stronger than him, which makes them a threat if they ever turn on him. Now, he knows he has one person he can always trust.

He even starts laying out the building blocks to potentially set rules similar to the ones Cazador had for his spawn. The way he starts mentioning them is very manipulative, too. They're statements made to seem like he's just expressing the depth of his devotion (still creepy), but he's really setting up being able to reiterate the rules without it being weird once the tadpoles are dealt with. He's fully aware that the tadpole will prevent Spawn!Player from being completely under his control. It's why you can break up with him before the end, but then he refuses to let the player go at the very end.

Spawn ending, when not romanced, Astarion decides to just travel by himself and become a hero. He doesn't find another group to travel with. He goes by himself. Spawn Astarion recognizes his own strength, embraces his Vampirism, not as something that taints him, but as a power to be unleashed on the real monsters. HE does the dirty work.

I love love love exploring both endings and I love the way Astarion's character can grow depending on player choice, then completely branch into two different ways once you hit the Ascension vs Spawn choice.

ty for reading my ramblings. I know this wasn't a straightforward analysis or anything, and def doesn't have an actual conclusion or like. point beyond character exploration. a lot of these thoughts are just me thinking character through so i can write them better. i want to explore these aspects of him, but I do ramble things first to get general characterization thoughts out.

[illithidactivities]

ascended truthers who try to justify killing 7000 people or even leaving them locked in those cells for all eternity are wild. the spawn aren’t “people” and are just dangerous monsters, but somehow Astarion is a person and not a dangerous monster?

if you truly believed they were not people, you’d kill Astarion in act 1 and be done with it. it’s hypocrisy otherwise.

also as someone who’s played Vampire: The Masquerade, they really COULD be ravenous monsters who are too far gone to be helped. if they were, though, the second someone with a pulse walked into that hallway, they would have been snarling and lunging at the gate trying to get to you. conversation wouldn’t be on the table. but they don’t do that, they clearly have their wits about them, and even the children are managing to control themselves.

besides that, if you let them free and Gandrel is still alive, you can find him and the kids in the sewer, working on finding ways to feed without hurting people. the kids are struggling a bit, but they haven’t hurt their parents, and they’re doing well with the cards they’ve been dealt.

it’s just really annoying for ascended fans to tell spawn fans over and over how we’re actually the terrible ones for giving 7000 people a chance to live rather than sacrifice them to create a power hungry madman or leave them locked up forever. I don’t care if you want to live your vampire dom/sub fantasies, but that is objectively Astarion continuing the cycle of abuse and it’s dumb to get mad at me for saying that when it’s just objectively the truth. It’s fine to enjoy the toxic relationship, but don’t act like I’m wrong for not wanting that and wanting to see a happier story play out.