#preference is between character/ship dynamic

[lambmotifz]

the samdean top/bottom discourse actually isn’t stupid at all. this is a relationship where a sexual dynamic might play a crucial role in characterization, not only because it’s not a typical gay ship (sam and dean are brothers who have a layered power imbalanced familial relationship, and you have to acknowledge it if you really love them as characters), but also because canon dean is a straight and misogynistic man who’s heavily implied to be homophobic and it does make a huge argument for why him being headcanoned as this subby omega bottom by 99% of the fandom can be seen as ooc by the people who accept him as he is in canon. personally i’m not interested in trying to “fix” him in fanon, i think it’s boring and overused as a trope. also even if you headcanon these characters as bi, you should keep in mind that a bisexual guy can insist on being in charge/dominant with a woman, but tend to be a bottom with men. sam being dominant with women doesn’t automatically confirm that he’d be exactly like that with men, and dean being a bit subby with women absolutely doesn’t mean that he’d enjoy taking it in the ass (there are actually plenty of canon based arguments for the opposite). and most importantly, their sexual preferences with women have nothing to do with a sexual dynamic between them as brothers, because these are completely different relationships

[gayofthefae]

Here's the real kicker. If they tweaked how it fit into Will's arc, they could have had Mike be bisexual, be with Will AND still end up with El.

Just give his bad timing trope from season 2 to El. Once again, it solves all their problems if they just hadn't "resolved" the I love you thing in season 3. Have her not confess that she heard him. Have him not tell her. Have him and Will start a thing not knowing she heard because he thought she still didn't wanna get back together, give them the fights about unspoken things they're not sure the other is privy to, sibling love triangle. Then they'll get the confrontations about secrets and unspoken promises instead. Boom. Done. Will finds some other boy but is still best friends with Mike, who was positioned as a stepping stone in his arc and not centered in it, Mike ends up with El who he always loved but thought he lost his chance with, but now he knows himself better through Will so he can be stronger in their relationship now that he has a stronger relationship with himself, bam. Great storyline. Juicy. Endgame. Done.

I'm realizing the more I think about these things, the less they had to change to make this happen. The rewrites really weren't huge.

[cinny13]

We should normalize disliking characters/ships/tropes (or whatever else) not cause of any moral reason, but simply cause it's not your thing. I cannot tell you how many times i've expressed dislike for a character and then people demanded a "valid reason" for it. Nah dude, i just don't like their vibes

[the-witchhunter]

I actually think toxic relationships are fine to write about, it’s just how you handle it. Like, obviously tag your stuff, but as long as you’re not putting it on a pedestal it’s fine to write

Like, characters don’t have to be good people that handle things in a healthy manner, and the fact some people like to enjoy stories about that kind of thing does not reflect some moral failing for those people. Life is messy and complicated, and some people like that reflected in their fiction

And toxic relationship in source material? That’s the power of fanfic, canon is barely a footnote. Removed from the context of source material, all that really matters is the content of the fanwork

Everything I’m saying is about fan fiction

Like, guys, who gives a shit what people ship?!

Like, as long as it’s not incest, pedophilia, sexual assault, any forms of abuse (ie emotional, physical, financial, mental, etc.), have a problematic source material, or an actually toxic relationship in the source material, then, and I’ll say it again

WHO GIVES A SHIT?!?!

Just let people enjoy themselves and their fandoms please

[queermediaismypassion]

hey so the ship doesn't fucking change in any way depending on who you think tops or bottoms in the bedroom. also some people switch! stop being so WEIRD about what gay people do in the bedroom.

i am so sick and tired of seeing people argue about ship names because of the stupid fucking practice of putting the top's name first. i'm talking people using harco instead of drarry cause they see harry as The Top (to use a ship most people know as example)

YOU'RE FUCKING WEIRD !!

the ship name should be determined by whatever the fuck sounds best. i've seen people trying to push for using "neuvithesley" over wriolette "because wrio is the bottom". i don't give a fuck what you prefer when you read about them, wriolette is just objectively a better name.

i've seen actual ship wars between people who ship the same two characters but think the top/bottom dynamic is so important that it changes the ship. just goes to show how many mlm shippers simply fetishize gay men and don't give a fuck about the actual relationship aspect.

what people prefer in bed is not necessarily reflected in their behavior in everyday life. not all gay couples have a sub/dom dynamic. some people like to switch it up. y'all seriously need to work on your stereotypes surrounding queer relationships.

not what this post is really about but side note: people also tend to feminize the percieved bottom so much. sometimes it gets to the point where it ends up looking like a straight relationship and it just smells a lot like lowkey homophobia with a whiff of internalized misogyny.

i don't necessarily think this is on purpose/done with malicious intent, but do better.

sorry this was very mlm heavy but femslash readers/writers are usually a lot less weird about this..

[bc-jpeg]

Thoughts on Grumbo?

I would kill for them. I think they might be the biggest hyperfixation ship in my life, I don't remember this level of insanity with any other fandom before.

I guess it’s not that visible from me, because I prefer to keep my socials blogs kinda clean from rebloging stuff*, AND I don’t draw them so often because I have so much projects on me and no time, it’s kinda sad.

honestly, if I had started, there would have been a huge lecture about grumbo, they have had so much going on for several years, and all the details fit so perfectly into an incredibly interesting dynamic that includes not only the interaction between the two of them, but also the essence of each of them, some character traits, daily habits, traumas and etc.

I'm going to say something that really upsets me. the problem of grumbo's non-popularity is very much based on the fact that their ship does not lie on the surface. it’s not as accessible as other popular ships in this fandom, and this is extremely painful, considering what their history really is.

grumbo are built on much bigger things than just silly interactions between characters that you might notice in episodes, even bigger than scripted lore moments on hermitcraft and life series. everything goes from their very first collabs to this day for several years already, and some micro fragments/clips from their videos are simply NOTHING compared to the context of the whole story. and just a disclaimer: I'm talking about the characters here, not about real people, the whole story only falls on their characters.

I often see that people may not understand grumbo’s ship dynamic at all simply because they watch only one pov (mostly grian). in this case, I beg you to watch both povs, you miss a lot if you watch only one person. in general, you can also watch third-party people with them! last life grumbo are also built on martyn's pov, for example.

I am so happy that their story started spinning again at the end of the hc s9 due to mumbo’s return, now in hc s10 + WHATEVER IS GOING ON in life series (especially in life series, because mumbo has NEVER had such possessive moments about grian before).

“forget the cactus ring, the desert i'm stuck in is sahara”

* I often reblog things from @mwapollo because he can put everything into right words MUCH better than me, especially when we discussing it all on a daily basis together, so we literally have the same vision about grumbo. I just really want all of his thoughts to be seen in this fandom. ykw I would turn it into shout-out, GO TO @mwapollo’s blog I DARE you. if you’re a grumbo fan, his blog is my first recommendation to go to.

[raven-at-the-writing-desk]

Do you think twst has any chance to make at least one fan ship canon? Like for example they hint on someone from nrc main cast is dating, or even something deeper with yuu. Or absolutely nothing of that happens because it's a disney game at the end?

No way, absolutely not 😂 They'll always tease it, but never actually commit to it. That's why Ace has an ex and not a current girlfriend (the other part of it is just him being an asshole). That's why Eliza/the Ghost Bride doesn't actually marry Idia; only expresses an interest in him but ultimately settles for someone else. That's why Vil has several adoring fans but those fans are not depicted as gunning for him as their boyfriend/husband (when the most crazed of fans irl would). That's why Lilia confessed to Maleanor but she chose someone else and later died (while the other person Lilia "loves", Raverne, went missing), thus "freeing" Lilia up. That's why Cater always talks about cute girls (and even fellow peers) but doesn't go out of his way to act on those flirtations. This has less to be with "oh, it's Disney" and more to do with the genre of the game (joseimuke). If anything, I feel like people might expect there to be canonized romance because it's Disney--a company closely associated with happily ever afters and fairy tales--not expect no canonized romance. However, a joseimuke game often presents characters in a platonic or questionably platonic light so the players can project whatever relationships with the characters they wish, whether that’s between the character and themselves, between the character and an OC, or between character and character. To canonize a "love interest" for a character hampers the self-insert appeal for fans of that character. There have been multiple instances of gacha fanbases becoming upset when the games try to introduce a "canon" or even a “rival” love interest for a beloved waifu, husbando, etc. because it makes fans of the now "taken" character feel ignored, rejected, or generally (for lack of a better term) "cheated on". That goes for shipping between the player or an OC and the character as well as shipping the characters with one another. This would also potentially upset the fans who headcanon the characters as a certain sexuality and/or with a certain dynamic in mind. I'd imagine Twst would want to avoid this at all costs, as it causes drama in the fandom and could eat into their profit margins.

I'm also very much against the idea that one character will be the romantic "end game" for Yuu. I often see one particular character (who shall not be named, as I do not want to stoke unnecessary discourse) being hawked as "the canon love interest", but if I'm being honest those kinds of claims make me uncomfortable. In stating one character is "the canon love interest" (even as a joke), it unintentionally invalidates those who don't wish to be forced to "be" with that character, and especially if they have a preference for someone else. This would be even worse if ever canonized; fans of that ship will rejoice but everyone else would be dissatisfied. Again, it just hinders the self-insert design of joseimuke games and is extremely counterintuitive in that regard.

[palinecrosis]

reed800 > reed900 and the mischaracterization of connor

I never understood people’s affinity for reed900 over reed800, and all the reasonings I’ve heard for it never make sense to me. Just to be clear, this post isnt meant to attack anybody who ships reed900, I’ve watched Detroit evolution alright. I fucked with it heavy. I’ve got a solid three Reed900 fics in my ao3 bookmarks. I have credentials. Don’t come for me.

Anyway, I will always prefer Connor and Gavin’s dynamic over a Nines and Gavin hypothetical one. I feel like the reason people don’t like covnin is because they often misinterpret Connor’s character, I see this amongst convin shippers too, not just people who dislike the ship. 

I keep hearing the argument that “Gavin hates Connor, and Connor doesn’t stand up for himself. Nines would be more cold, which matches Gavin’s personality.” This is probably the shittiest take I’ve ever heard. The DBH fandom tends to see Connor as meek. Because of this, they think he’s vulnerable to Gavin’s hostility, which is just not true. When we’re introduced to Gavin, he’s antagonistic towards Connor right of the bat. Connor, in order to keep the peace, remains professional. This is because initially, it’s not in Connor’s interest/programming to disobey or disrupt humans. He prefers to move along, focus on the mission and ignore unnecessary distractions. However, when Gavin persists, when the android being interrogated is about to self destruct, Connor has the choice to physically stop the officer from restraining it and he does, defying Gavin in the process as well. Connor does not care about Gavin’s human authority in this case, he only cares about what he knows to be true and sticking to his objective. 

Now you may bring up the breakroom scene in which Gavin punches Connor, Connor just seems to let it happen despite it being a direct physical attack and not just an offhand comment. I hate when people bring this up because at this time, Connor was not deviant yet. He did not develop enough consciousness/deviancy to actively choose to defend himself. Again, in order to move things along and cause the least ruckus possible, he takes it. I’ve also heard arguments that Connor “pretends” to be hurt in order to seem subservient to Gavin to make it seem like he’s not fighting back against a human. I like that theory! 

People also seem to forget that when things directly misalign with his mission, Connor is quick to go against anybody, even humans, who stand in the way. Have people forgotten what Connor did to Gavin in the archive room? He beat the living shit out of him, incapacitated him, and walked off with a final tie adjustment as if it was nothing. This is the Connor who you’re calling meek, the one who pretended to be the Traci’s dead girlfriend to get to Jericho. The one who sampled Markus’ voice to take advantage of beaten down Simon’s loyalty. The one who nagged Hank to rent Traci’s until the lieutenant humiliatedly obliged. The one who chased Kara and a child down a highway. The one who gets himself killed multiple times just to accomplish his mission. The one who sarcastically told Gavin he’d “miss their bromance.” PLEASE. 

All of this is to make a point for a romantic/sexual dynamic between Connor and Gavin that actually puts them as equals. Where we get the good ending with deviant Connor, androids having rights, Gavin being forced into sensitivity training and actually learn to see androids as people (we love the Gavin Reed Redemption tag). None of that degrading convin bullshit where Connor puts up with Gavin’s bigotry and thinks “I can fix him!” Where Gavin actually takes responsibility for his own behavior and slowly learns to change his outlook. 

Connor would not shut up to Gavin’s insults. He’d push back just as hard, sarcastic and sardonic in his own way. He’d spit some sort of off putting logical roast at Gavin to hurt his feelings, psychoanalyzing him to a T. They’d have amazing back and forth, banter fuelled with sexual tension, actual physical fights, prolonged angry eye contact, pinning down and grabbing dangerously close to certain areas. Connor beginning to warm up to Gavin’s hostility, being smart, seeing past it, knowing it’s a cover up for something more raw and vulnerable. Gavin starting to think “Maybe he’s not so bad” to “he’s funny” to “he’s pretty fucking hot” to “shit maybe I like him”. DO WE NOT SEE THE VISION!! 

anyways I need to convert more people to like convin. yeah you can make your case for reed900 but they will never have as much chemistry as convin and not nearly as much hatefuck potential. thank you for reading. 

[busket]

I understand personal preference and that some people just don't like ships with men, and that's ok! but I'm annoyed at the implication from some fans that labru has less depth as a relationship than farcille or any other wlw ship in dungeon meshi, and the idea that people are only shipping it as a joke, or because they're horny, or because they're misogynistic and don't want to look at female characters, etc etc. I've seen people call it like, "bloodlust obsession that turns to horniness" and it made me realize that the people who don't ship labru don't understand their dynamic at all. labru shippers didn't just pull this out of our asses lol

a lot of the story around kabru involves how he and laios are perfect opposites of eachother. NARRATIVE FOILS, if you will. everywhere kabru thrives (social interaction, charisma, the surface) laios completely fails. and everywhere that laios is most successful (in the dungeon against monsters) kabru keeps getting killed. not only that but their desires are mirrors of each other too: laios grew up bullied by humans and wanted to become a monster, kabru grew up dehumanized by his villagers and then the elves, so he wants to affirm his identity as a human being.

despite how kabru should be repulsed by laios due to his hatred of monsters, he's drawn to him instead. kabru spends the entire story trying to get to laios to talk to him and to get to know him. firstly he knows laios is closest to defeating the dungeon lord and needs to sus out if he's a good person, but he admits that he really wants to be friends with laios too, not just to determine his virtue but to see what value laios sees in monsters. he wants laios to share his interest in people, he wants laios to be interested in him back. kabru never had any true bloodlust or desire to kill laios, he was prepared to go that far if laios wasn't a good person, but once finding out that he has good intentions kabru spends all his energy trying to help laios instead. and when you consider that kabru spent his childhood believing he was half monster because of how he was ostracized in utaya, his curiosity about how laios could possibly love monsters feels so much more personal.

and for laios, he's not used to anyone taking an interest in him. people are constantly telling him he's weird, and the person he believed to be his best friend told him he couldn't stand him. he misses falin so dearly because she thinks he's the coolest man on earth, so meeting someone and being told "I hate monsters but I still want to know YOU" would have an impact on him, I think. in postcanon they become good friends, kabru becomes laios' right hand man to help him with more of the dicey social aspects of being a leader. laios asks him to stay by his side and help him, and kabru says "yeah, that's what I've been doing this whole time"

I wouldn't claim that a romantic relationship between them is CANON, but I wouldn't even say that about farcille either tbh (and I love farcille just as much so don't come for me lol) this isn't a comedy crackship that yaoi fans just made up. laios and kabru are really multi dimensional characters and they're made to reflect eachother in every way, even down to their physical design. so it's not out of nowhere that people ship them

[scurvyboy]

Not to beat a dead horse or whatever, but you don’t see fiddlestan being healthy at any point? I feel like your version of them would have most of their issues figured out by the time they’re old and stuff. Can you talk about their dynamic a bit more pretty please? (I know you just had an ask about this so sorry to keep bringing it up aha 🤪. I’m obsessed with them, and I love your art/au and want to understand them.)

the basis of why i like the fiddlestan ship is strictly because it doesn't work and is doomed to fail. it's a relationship between two extremely damaged people that are only together for transactional reasons.

the way i see it starting: fiddleford comes back to gravity falls after being kicked out by emma may in hopes that he can patch things up with ford. he finds stan there instead and decides to help him fix the portal despite his crushing anxiety about it because he has nowhere else to go. they're both stuck alone in this situation and urges become apparent. things are awkward for a while before they start banging fuck nasty brokeback mountain style.

fiddleford wants stan because he's delusional and still in love with ford. sure he grows to appreciate differences between them and has a separate chemistry with stan, but he is also completely out of touch with reality and rebounding off of his failed marriage with a man who looks just like the one he cheated on his wife with. working on the portal triggers intense panic attacks, which makes him use the memory gun more, which makes him less and less stable.

stan is working himself to death trying to get ford back and just needs affection. the sexual aspect of their relationship helps him blow off steam, but fiddleford also treats him like a person with a brain and allows him to be emotionally vulnerable for the first time in a long while. having someone finally break down his walls is equal parts frightening and addictive for him; he wants to be loved so badly but knows deep down that fiddleford doesn't actually love him, just the person he represents. he's just second best again.

things start to fall apart when it becomes clear that fixing the portal will be impossible without the other journals. fiddleford basically gives up trying to do the work in earnest and just lives in a domestic fantasy world. stan starts to get more and more impatient about the lack of work getting done and the stress makes him a lot more irritated and volatile. the two enter a vicious cycle of violent fights and honeymoon phases until things boil over: stan confronts fiddleford about the memory gun and kicks him out after he tries to use it on him.

post break up fiddleford, now with his cult and savior complex, murder suicides the portal and their affair from both of their memories. however, stan gets his portal memories back being at the shack and goes on to do what he does in canon.

the whole relationship takes place over the course of a few weeks and is as canon compliant as i could manage. i think it's a really fun concept and i think about it all the time.

to be real, i really dislike the idea that all relationships in media have to be healthy and resolved in order to be compelling. the idea that characters NEED to end the story happy and together is just plain unrealistic. i prefer when stories go outside of the limits of "and then they got together and everything was great after that", especially if being in a relationship isn't necessary to a characters arc.

i do think that them getting together when they're older could work and be very nice. however, i also don't think it's entirely necessary, especially since i did make their relationship rotted gutted awful bad. it is cute though, they can kiss and watch tv and marry for taxt purposes i guess.

[mahoganyrust]

So Im new to the httyd fandom and I was curious about the hijack ship. I don’t think Jack Frost is in httyd. Was it just one of those things where you saw Rise of the Guardians and thought Jack would go well with Hiccup? I’m just curious. ☺️

Hiiii. So I’m definitely not the one that came up with Hijack XD The ship has been around for over a decade now it’s not exactly news. But I understand when ppl first come across it it seems strange so I’ll give you a rundown.

And you’d be right. Jack isn’t in httyd and nor is Hiccup in Rotg. So in the fanon community, this is what we call a ‘rare pair’ or aka, a ship that crosses fandoms and is made up mostly of fanon content. It might seem strange but it happens a lot. It’s fanon. And crossovers are the traditional crux fun of fanfiction so it’s not that weird.

Hijack is heavily associated with a very popular quadruple crossover known as ROTBTD or Rise of The Brave Tangled Dragons. This is an intersection between Disney Merida and Rapunzel with Dreamworks Jack and Hiccup. Rotbtd went craaaazyy in the 2010s and there’s a lot of different content with fics and fanart.

From this, some ppl often ship Jackunzel or Mericup or etc etc you get the idea there’s a lot of different dynamics.

I never really dove too heavily into the rotbtd stuff but I’m still familiar.

So that’s the history. As for Jack and Hiccup? They’re weird as hell I get it lmao. Like wtf is this? XD.

Hiccup’s married with kids. Jack’s in the modern era etc. They have a lot of canon hurdles so why do people ship them?

My answer?

They work.

They work together so well in so many different ways that it takes over your brain. Hijack grows on you bit by bit.

As for what they have in common. They’re both big fliers and adrenaline junkies. They both question their purpose. They both know what it’s like to lose family. They both have gone through years of loneliness. Jack is a guardian, Hiccup is a chief - they’re both protectors. They’re both fighters. They’ve both been suddenly shunned after feeling like they were finally beginning to belong. They both have issues with footwear (lmao sorry). Hiccup creates inventions, Jack creates frosty art and fun with his powers. They both do their character development by a lake in a forest lol. They both have burly accented father figures XD. Jack is the boy who fell into icy water. Hiccup is the boy who fell into blazing fire.

There’s a beautiful parallel in lines here.

Rotg: “Jack Frost is many things, but he is not a guardian.”

Httyd: “You are many things Hiccup, but a dragon killer is not one of them.”

And they both originate each from their own book series that got adapted.

And that’s just the factual stuff. When it comes to their personalities whooowheeeeee.

From the last decade I’ve seen lots of stuff that does them a disservice when ppl reduce Jack to the outgoing ‘jokester’ and Hiccup to the introvert ‘nerdy guy’. In the earlier days some ppl were shipping httyd1 Hiccup, which personally I find extremely weird. Never engaged with that lol. After httyd2 came out that disappeared mostly but still it’s unsettling.

Anyways I don’t like the simplification of their characters and prefer when maybe older creators can take them in a more emotionally complex direction and when they do ohhhh my goddddddd. You end up with storytelling masterpieces with amazing character dimensionality.

I could go on for hours. There’s just something about them. It’s hard to put it into a single word but when they’re done right they just work.

[jeonscatalyst]

Do you know when those narratives of bighit using jikook to cover up taekook started? I remember in my baby army days (early-mid 2017 ish) those narratives were already around but there were no specific ships accused of being used as a "cover up". It was just "taekook interactions were cut from aired footage" or "bighit doesn't allow taekook to be next to each other in official content to protect them". For context i'm a returning fan, i fell out with bangtan back in 2020 because life got too busy, now i'm back and suddenly i see taekookers saying jikook is a cover up for taekook 😅 it might have been a regional fanbase thing since baby army me didn't specifically engage with the west side of the fandom but rather south east asia?

I've always been a jikooker (for fun at the beginning since i liked their vocals together, then mr jeon jk dropped the bombshell that is gcft and i was gagged) but i used to watch a lot of taekook theories, which was how i came across that company covers taekook narrative. I know jikook has always been a sensitive subject in the fandom but i learned just recently how bad it has gotten over the years. AYS?! and their military enlistment really got fire under people's seats.

Hi anon.

As someone who’s been in this fandom for a while, I’d say those narratives really started gaining traction around 2017, especially after GCFT.

You see, in the early days, Jikook as a ship barely existed. The most popular pairings were Taekook and Namjin, and to a lesser extent, Vmin and Yoonmin. Jikook hardly got any attention. Taekook had a lot of cute and playful moments…they were always seen goofing around, being mischievous, and just having a lighthearted bond. In contrast, not many people paid attention to Jimin and Jungkook’s interactions, partly because their dynamic didn’t always appear as wholesome or easygoing as Taekook’s. Naturally, many fans gravitated toward Taekook because it was more digestible, more heartwarming, and lacked that sense of emotional push and pull which people just looking for an escape from the real world weren’t ready to deal with.

Now, as is typical in fan culture, people tend to ship characters they enjoy seeing together regardless of whether they believe anything romantic is truly happening. That’s what happened with Taekook. They were the two youngest members with an adorable bond, and since romantic love is often wrongly seen as the highest form of love, everything had to be framed as romance. Taekook quickly became BTS’s biggest ship.

Fast forward to around 2016, and there was a noticeable shift….Taekook weren’t being seen together in content as much, and when they were, something felt different. Around this time, many people claimed there was suddenly a rise in Jikook content, but that’s not entirely true. Jikook had always been there. It’s just that their moments were overlooked because Taekook’s interactions dominated the spotlight. As the members matured, Jikook’s bond also evolved from roughhousing and teasing to something much softer and more emotionally grounded. Naturally, people began to take notice. But what really changed the game was Jungkook’s GCFT.

Once GCFT dropped, it became impossible to ignore Jikook. Even those who hadn’t paid much attention started to see the dynamic between them. And because Taekook was the most famous and widely accepted ship at the time, this shift was something many Taekookers couldn’t handle. To make sense of it…and to keep believing in their preferred narrative, they latched onto the only explanation that fit their perspective: the company was using Jikook to cover up Taekook.

These narratives began circulating around 2017. While I can’t say for sure who started them, there’s no doubt that Taekook-lives played a major role in making them widespread. Taekookers were desperate to explain why Jungkook was suddenly doing so much with Jimin even though they had long believed that the person he truly loved was Taehyung. So when someone came along offering an explanation that allowed them to maintain that belief, they clung to it no matter how absurd it sounded. Many had formed a deep emotional attachment to the fantasy of Taekook, and they weren’t ready to let it go.

As with most things in life, if you look hard enough for proof of something, you’ll find it. There are plenty of instances where interactions between members get cut and there are a number of plausible reasons for that. Coincidences, editing choices, off-camera behavior that couldn’t be aired… the list goes on. But Taekookers were looking for confirmation, so Taekook-lives began combing through content, cherry-picking any moments that supported the idea of Taekook being “separated.” She ignored the fact that every member pairing has had moments like that, and since no one else was compiling those kinds of edits for other ships, it created the illusion that only Taekook were being “targeted” by the company….even when the so-called cuts made no sense at all.

As people consumed these long, dramatized YouTube videos titled “Taekook Being Separated by Bighit” or similar misleading content, they developed a kind of protective instinct. They truly began to believe Taekook were being oppressed and that belief gave them a cause to fight for. When people feel like they’re defending something pure and hidden, especially in the face of adversity, it creates a kind of loyalty and determination that’s hard to break. That’s how the group kept growing. And this also explains why so many Taekookers developed such strong animosity toward Jimin. In their eyes, he became the villain…a bad friend to Taehyung….because they believed he was helping the company keep Taekook apart without caring how his actions hurt Taehyung.

In short, these narratives gained traction in 2017 because many Taekookers couldn’t accept that human relationships are complex. Sometimes, people drift apart…because of age, life changes, or evolving circumstances….and form deeper bonds with others. But instead of acknowledging that, they created a storyline where the company was forcibly separating Taekook and using Jikook as a smokescreen.

Because in their world, Taekook couldn’t have naturally grown apart. No…..it just had to be sabotage.

[valar-did-me-wrong]

Hey buzzword crowd, here's the simplest, most basic way I could put the core of the problem that imo is happening between you people and most of the fandom..

(won't call you Shippers here because I know some shippers who don't use your language or agree with your opinions )

This is also me trying to convey what I believe is why people have problems with you people's essays & posts (because it is not the ship that most people have problem with, I'll elaborate) maybe this will help prevent future toxicity..

Spoiler it has everything to do with the respect you give other people & their blorbos and nothing to do with everyone except you all being anti-feminist, anti-sex, anti-shipping, anti-biotic, anti-ageing, anti-oxidant, anti-body etc etc etc..

I'll use 3 characters and 5 points, here we go!

(Ditch the namecalling and insults before you interact)

(again this is my opinion & interpretation of the situation)

1. Elrond in Adar's Tent

If you read it as Sauron as Elrond

What it adds to the story: one ship & it's characters' dynamics with each other and othes in that tent

What it takes away from the story: Elrond coming to himself as a leader, his quick thinking, his skill with words and politics, the growth of his character

What it gives Galadriel: a non consenting kiss & more ship dynamics

What it takes away from Galadriel: her friend saying sorry for treating her horribly through out S2

If you read it as Elrond in the tent

What it adds to the story: a young man coming into himself as a future leader, a friend realising his mistake and asking for forgiveness, a half elf being reminded that he has a powerful Maia in his family (he isn't less than any elf lord)

What it takes away from the story: nothing imo because the siege still happens and it doesn't negate Sauron & Galadriel's S1 dynamics so Your ship can still sail

What it gives Galadriel: she gets the apology she deserved and reconciliation with her friend

What it takes away from Galadriel: a non con kiss

You see how your interpretation of this as canon erases a whole character and his arc but the version most Elrond fan's prefer doesn't affect your ship a bit..

Now this interpretation wouldn't have been a problem if you all weren't framing your posts as feminist & show canon & the correct way of interpreting media & then start name calling & insulting anyone and everyone who disagrees.

Just like you guys don't like the show haters on reddit etc trying to disrespect you & the whole Haladriel dynamics, other fan's also don't like to be called assholes, misogynists, conservatives & Haters etc etc for simply liking the show in another way.

2. Celebrimbor and the elven rings

If you read it as Sauron's engagement rings

What it adds to the story: one ship's dynamics

What it takes away from the story: Celebrimbor's part in their creation & his talents as the greatest Elven smith of his time, the show runners statments that Sauron is not there when the rings are being actually forged

What it gives Galadriel: a personalised ring specifically for her from her enemy and all the dynamics of it

What it takes away from Galadriel: her knowledge, her trust in her family member Celebrimbor.. all of which backs her claim that the rings are untouched by Sauron

If you read it as Celebrimbor's elven rings made with Sauron's help

What it adds to the story: Celebrimbor's hardwork, his skills that he has in part learned from his grandfather THE Feanor of Noldor, his ambition, his Feanorian hubris, his partnership of equals with Annatar, call back to his love for Galadriel in a version by Tolkien (for Nenya seeming to choose Galadriel)

What it takes away from the story: a plot hole imo of Sauron having the skill to make rings of power all by himself this early in the story & not using that to make the other rings alone.. still doesn't invalidate any of Galadriel & Halbrand dynamics so Your ship can still sail

What it gives Galadriel: a correct opinion about the nature of the rings that all her people eventually come to agree with

What it takes away from Galadriel: a mistake imo which is either not correctly judging the nature of the rings or knowing and still risking the future of all middle earth by insisting every time that the rings are safe

You see how wanting the rings to Not Be engagment rings doesn't do any harm to your ship and it's dynamics & neither does it reduce Sauron's talents as a Smith.. he is still a Maia who worked under Aulë and helped in Creation Of The World & who will go on to make the One.

But constantly saying that the rings are Sauron's engagement rings erases the whole point of Celebrimbor as a character.. not to mention his talents that Sauron needed to make the other rings and Celebrimbor's input that also helps him in making the One.

And understandaby Celebrimbor fans don't like this interpretation that reduces & erases him. But nobody would have had problems if again you guys weren't framing your headcanon essays as absolute feminist truths & calling other takes Bad Takes.

3. Nenya healing Adar

If you read it as Nenya giving him redemption by fixing his evilness

What it adds to the story: a plot hole with this magic healing ability that can fix everything and everyone who falls to darkness and evil, making way for sauron to find quick redemption

What it takes away from the story: a realistic worldview where individual choices have impact not only on the person themselves but also to everyone around them, an understanding of how healing works irl

What it gives Galadriel: a mistake for not giving away a ring of power to Sauron to heal him

What it takes away from Galadriel: her wisdom that one cannot heal another person out of their evil or mistakes (heal yourself)

If you read it as Adar gets redemption because of choosing to see his mistakes & trying to correct them after being healed by Nenya out of the torture and dark magic that turned him into uruk

What it adds to the story: Adar's commendable ability to see his huge mistakes and accept them infront of his enemy & try to fix them

What it takes away the story: the ability of the rings to heal Sauron

because in this reading it requires acceptance to look your mistakes in the eye & choice to do better that redeems a person which Sauron in show gets many chances to do but doesn't repeatedly. This still doesn't invalidate Sauron & Galadriel's dynamics so Your ship can still sail

What it gives Galadriel: an example that if someone who was under the shadow for so long as Adar can come to the light by choosing to accept their mistakes then she too despite her tryst with darkness can still come to the light by acceptance if she chooses

What it takes away from Galadriel: the burden of healing her abuser

Again reading Adar's redemption as his own achievement doesn't affect your ship at all & neither does it prevent Sauron from ever getting redeemed. It just gives him a truer to life way to get redeemed someday; even makes his future redemption more compelling imo.

But when you make the redemption all about Nenya it takes away the little good this already tragic & tortured character of Adar has. Add that to the usual insensitive framing & you'll get Me in response, an Adar fan fuming.

4. Adar's villian arc

If you read him as solely a villain

What it adds to the story: another villian

What it takes away from the story: Sauron's narrative foil and all the complexity that has been put into his character from his introduction in S1

What it gives Galadriel: a mistake imo it makes Galadriel's pity & understanding of the suffering of Adar & Uruk a mistake if he is only a villain & does everything wrong in all lights.

What it takes away from Galadriel: an example of what becomes of people who accept darkness despite love still existing in their heart and also an example of how good intentions and horrible actions can go hand in hand

If you read him as a morally grey character who had a villain's arc in one light but an anti-hero's arc in another light

What it adds to the story: a complex character that creates an emotional connection with some people who might see flashes of their persecution in the Uruk, a character who grounds the story in real world by having elements of freedom fighters & rebels choosing wrong paths in desperation, a great portrayal of the Cycle of Abuse creating abusers out of some victims

What it takes away from the story: a similar or less complex villian than Sauron but doesn't affect the dynamics of Sauron & Galadriel so Your ship can still sail

Again see how having Adar as not fullly a villain doesn't affect even a bit of your ship. It also doesn't affect Sauron and his existence as a compelling villian with a repentance arc & some good intention behind all the deception. You can still read good in Sauron's actions, Adar doesn't need to be a villain to make Sauron's goodness more visible.

But your insistence that he can only be read as a villain & people who see him as anything else are supporting genocide can irk Adar fans because the scenes showing his good traits exist & were placed conciously & weren't a collective hallucination.

5. Gay Adar being forced into ships with women

This one I'll just simply say.. The people who insist that he's gay are also the ones I see that say his relationship with Sauron was only one sided where Adar was in love but Sauron wasn't.

Here are my problems with this reading:

Adar is queercoded.. the showrunners' interview from SDCC mentions LGBTQIA+ & we all assume it was about him right..

Nowhere is it specificed that he's gay.. why can't he be Bisexual? Pansexual? Or something else or just Queer who doesn't want to be labelled by anything?

Why is this one specific way of reading him so important to you by invalidating everyone else's reading when nothing is concrete canon about this anyway?

Why can't all kinds of people from LGBTQIA+ explore their sexuality via Adar just like you all like to explore female sexuality & dark fantasies etc via Galadriel & Sauron? Because it isn't wrong in anyway I agree, I used to ship them too in S1. And most people you call names every day will agree with that too!

All this was the long way of saying, if you'll be mean to people, their reading of the story, their fav characters and their author.. some will retaliate in the same way.

It's not because they hate your ship or women or women's sexuality or villain ships or gays etc etc etc it's just simply about the respect you give out into the world & the ability to differentiate between fans of the show who like other things than you and Haters of the show.

[lesmisshippingshowdown]

Hello and welcome to the Les Mis Shipping Showdown!

That's right, we're bringing ship brackets to the Les Mis fandom! The Shipping Showdown is an all new, 5 round contest intended to answer some of the internet's greatest questions, such as "is E/R's dominance really as overwhelming as AO3 statistics would have you believe?", "what is the fandom's all time favourite Les Amis pair the spares combo?", and "what would happen if we tried to Jurassic Park the ship wars of 2013 back into existence 12 years later?". Ignore that last one, maybe.

The voting portion of the Les Mis Shipping Showdown is now complete - congratulations to our winners, Enjolras/Grantaire!

We have also now completed Steal Off 2 - click here to see the results and here if you're interested in stats about the whole stealing process!

Ideas for further activities are in the pipeline so please watch this space for more details!

CURRENT BRACKET BELOW:

Please see below the cut for FAQ, rules, and mod details:

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Q: Who is responsible for all this? Great question! The Les Mis Shipping Showdown is the brainchild of @lonelyroommp3, with invaluable assistance including graphic design, bracket seeding, and wildcard suggestions from @glindalesbian. We are both veterans of the Les Mis fandom, and although it's not been either of our main fandoms for a while we're both still filled with love and nostalgia for both the work itself and the memories the fandom and its myriad shipping messes evoke<3

Q: Woah, wait! How did you decide upon these specific ships? 29 of the ships are - as far as it's possible to accurately sort these things on AO3 - the 29 most popular romantic relationship tags in the Les Misérables (All Media Types) fandom category. This sorting method isn't foolproof, and if we've missed something major we can only apologise! If you bring to light a really notable ship that we've missed, it may get included as part of a special round at a later date if demand is sufficient.

In addition, between the two mods we have chosen three wildcard entries based on such scientifically rigorous selection criteria as "one of us personally shipped this back in the day", "we remember this being really popular but the AO3 stats don't seem to reflect that", and, in one case, "we thought it would be really funny." It is up to you, dear reader, to try and figure out which ship fits in each category.

For the sake of transparency, a couple of ships have been excluded because they have significant overlap with another, more popular ship. For example, both Joly/Bossuet and Joly/Bossuet/Musichetta have AO3 works in the hundreds, but including them both felt a little redundant, so we made the executive decision to just include the more popular combination of the above characters.

Q: Are platonic/familial/queerplatonic relationship tags included? What if I like a combination of characters in a given match up, but only platonically? All my love to the non romantic relationship dynamics in Les Mis - after all, "to love another person is to see the face of God" is a lyric that intentionally does not specify a type of love! However, to keep things streamlined, this poll is specifically about romantic/sexual ships. Whenever you see a match up, assume you are being asked which combination of characters you personally would prefer to see depicted in a romantic relationship and/or sucking and fucking.

Q: Can I submit propaganda? Where should I do this? Yes! You are welcome to add propaganda in the reblogs of any given poll, or send asks or submissions to this blog. However, if your propaganda is in the form of a new fanwork (fic, art, etc) it may be of more use as a steal - see the link above for more details!

Q: Can I share this blog/contest/specific polls outside of Tumblr? If you're sharing on a small scale with a discord server, individual friends without Tumblr accounts, etc, please go ahead! We would, however, politely request that if you are lucky enough to have contacts who are, or have been, involved with professional productions of Les Misérables in any capacity that you do NOT share this competition with them directly or go shouting about it in places they are likely to see it, no matter how funny you think it may be to try and get some organic propaganda off the US Tour's 2nd cover Grantaire or whoever. Some of us are fujos in the sheets and actual theatre professionals in the streets, and we'd prefer to keep those two streams of our lives as separate as possible. Please respect this!

Q: You've used my fanart in a post and I don't want it in there/it's been credited incorrectly. If this happens to you, please let us know via asks ASAP with a link or clear reference to the offending post & artwork, so we can either remove your art or amend the credit accordingly!

FURTHER RULES

We were both around in this fandom in 2013 when people were in the actual trenches about certain ships, and we know this can be a testy subject. We also think a bit of healthy competition and ship warring is fun from time to time, and the Les Mis Shipping Showdown is not intended to be a totally sanitised arena where we take everything super duper seriously and everybody has to be really really niceys 100% of the time. However, we do ask that good taste and interpersonal respect is considered:

You're free to fight about ships until the cows come home, but please refrain from personal attacks on other users in any arena related to this tournament.

Any hate speech in propaganda, notes of official tournament posts, asks/submissions, or any posts about the tournament brought to the mods' attention will NOT be tolerated and will result in an instant block (+ the offending account being reported if deemed necessary).

We've both seen shipping tournaments play out in other fandoms and know that it's absolutely impossible to avoid botting & vote rigging. However, any cases of the above that are deemed excessive, malicious, or generally against the spirit of the tournament may result in a match up being aborted, repeated, or, in extreme cases, a ship being permanently excluded from the tournament. This also goes for poll stealing - egregiously low effort works or those which seem designed to exploit loopholes in the scoring system to get as many points as possible may be marked down or disqualified. Just be normal pleaseeeeeee

[olderthannetfic]

Quote from a post: "the things created within fandom aren’t real - an individual fic can’t cause actual, material harm to a reader, even if it contains tropes that would be harmful or distressing if they happened in that reader’s real life; an author’s use of certain tropes or interest in certain characters is not indicative of their actual morals and values in real life; thought crimes are not real crimes - but fanfiction is produced by human beings who are themselves products of the societies and communities in which we all live, and these societies and communities all have flaws and failings.

which is to say, those of us who prefer to read male friendships as romantic do need to be aware that, no matter how enlightened on gender and its foibles we think ourselves to be, we are nonetheless influenced as modern humans by a modern tendency to discourage platonic physical and emotional closeness between men - especially straight men - on the grounds that two men having this sort of relationship is inherently queer and, in being queer, implicitly sexual [an understanding of queerness which is another powerful societal influence on our thought, even if we know we don’t agree with it.]"

Okay this is from a big post from a big fandom account here please don't speculate who it is this is not about them specifically and has nothing to do with them i genuinely respect this poster and they are nothing but a supportive space and don't have any anti-nonsense. But I wanna talk about this point that they are making "the society is queering straight friendships" which is something also the anti-fujoshi crowd is saying and honestly I can't agree with that point.

I don't think its us the people who make fandom are queering the relationships between two straight men but the patriarchal system we live under and straight men themselves are doing it to themselves. They can't show love and affection to each other lest other dudes will call them gay not because there are secret fujoshis around that sexualize them. They can be vulnerable period lest everyone calls them whiney like women. I feel like (and most of the things I say here are vibes, not facts) men having close friendships with other men are green flags, and most women are excited to see men who have exact the strong relationship that are portrayed in media.

I'm confused by this talking point to be honest. I also understand that by saying everything I said above I sort of said the same thing as the original poster. In a sense that society is the problem here and we live in a society as we know, but... idk I feel like what they say is "we live in a society where everyone by default is sexualizing male friendships" which sounds like the standard anti-fujoshi talking point to me.

And regarding the point of romantic relationships being prioritized over platonic— I feel like is a complete bullshit to be honest.

Romantic relationships are prioritized over platonic ones across the board. Straight couples leave their straight friends behind when they get further into relationship too! I don't understand this impulse to constantly talk about romantic vs platonic thing when its about queer ships, and maybe there is somewhere straight ship discourse about romantic vs plantonic but its not as big as with mlm or wlw ships.

And honestly even with this take I feel like romantic relationships are also not prioritized but rather are more encouraged. And there is difference between encouraging and actually prioritizing I think.

(I want to add here that I'm not aroace so maybe its a blindspot and from that identitys point of view the dynamics might be different)

In reality I think both are equally hard to obtain and maintain. I always felt like the fandom being so shipping focused was not about people being hellbent on romance but just the fact that good love stories are few and far between both in fiction and IRL and we can't help but try to make something at least remotely good, or interesting or satisfying.

Again, my main problems is: 1) I don't agree that romantic relationships are prioritized to that high degree over the friendships like everyone claims. 2) I don't think that every single person is actually a secret fujoshi waiting to make any straight male friendship gay. 3) Fandoms are romantic ship centric because people just want more narratively satisfying romantic stories that are underrepresented in media (or they don't get to experience it IRL) rather than they are vehemently against platonic ships.

I don't know this hopefully came out coherent.

--

The person who wrote that sounds like a pretentious twatwaffle, and I am so sick of seeing otherwise reasonable people spout that crap. That's been true since the 90s and probably before.

The reality is that Western culture enshrines male friendship as the highest form of affection possible. This goes back to the Classical world. And, yes, they were probably fucking too back then, but the thing that all of the media is about is friendship.

The entire backbone of Western culture is built on the idea that men are spiritually, biologically, inherently more capable than women of this highest form of relationship. Romance is the big thing for women because we're not eligible for The Pure And Holy Friendship Between Two Men.

The epidemic of male loneliness is real, but we haven't gotten any less "Bros before hos". Fandom and m/m shipping behavior are irrelevant to this.

--

Furthermore, fandom has plenty of people who don't focus on shipping.

AO3 was built by slashers, so ship type is a top-level category, and the site obviously signals that it's about shipping and particularly non heterosexual shipping since you can filter out het.

Past sites often had more metadata that wasn't around ships (e.g. FFN's genres that work like bookstore genres) and almost never let you get rid of het. You might have been able to filter in The Gay, but straight stuff was literally unmarked.

~We do need to be aware of~

Bite me.

This naggy phrase is everywhere, and nothing good comes of it.

The only thing we need to be aware of is that Blorbo is great and s/he should be mashed together with Other Blorbo. If that's in gen adventures, you do you.

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

HOTD with book ages vs show casting

It's interesting to think about how fans perceptions of characters would be radically different if we had book accurate casting.

Emily Carey (aged 18-19 here) is perfectly age-accurate to play an 18-year-old Alicent.

Meanwhile Paddy Considine, at 48, was pushing it a fair bit to play a 29-year-old Viserys.

For reference, Tom Glynn-Carney was 28 while filming Season 2.

So not that he's my fancast for young Paddy or anything, but let's be real. You would all be writing self-insertxVizzy fics. Alicent would have no more agency in the marriage if Viserys was his book age than his show age, but fan perceptions of Viserys would definitely be different if he was played by a young and attractive actor (no offense of course to Paddy, he is serving Targaryen realness etc.)

Or look at Fabian Frankel. He would have been around 27/28 while filming season 1. You were shipping Alicole back when Emily Carey was still in the role, after all.

And then there's Rhaenyra, who was 8 during the events of the first episode, and 9 when Viserys married Alicent.

Milly Alcock, roughly 21 here, is just a tad older than 8-year-old Rhaenyra.

Amelie Child-Villiers would have been 12-13 while filming Rings of Power, so older than Rhaenyra at the very beginning but can pass for younger.

To anyone who thinks a child Rhaenyra wouldn't have been interesting to follow, er... have you read ASOIAF? There are quite a few prominent child POV characters, you may have noticed. And Alicent doesn't automatically become uninteresting if she's 18 rather than 15... or 40.

I mean I get it, Rhaenycent shippers, you prefer the sapphic dynamic in HOTD... and it is absolutely fine to prefer something! But it isn't inherently deeper or more interesting. It isn't objectively better. BFFesbians can be just as one-note as you claim step-mother/daughter relationships are with the wrong writing, and step-mother/daughter relationships can be richly complicated.

Now, I've already gone through the absolute horror that is book Rhaenyra and book Criston

Criston Cole was 22 when he met a 7-year-old Rhaenyra, 23 during the events of the first episode. So Fabian at 27 (pictured here) is a a few years older, but his age gap with Amelie is the same as Criston and Rhaenyra. And yikes. This is why 'Criston the Dad who Stepped Up' posts make me throw up in my mouth. (Also it is so weird that Criston is never recast after the time jump even though the actor is younger than Emma D'Arcy - Criston is 47 during the Dance).

And yes, Daemon has a similar age gap with Rhaenyra

Daemon was 24 during the events of the first episode. Though I would add that Daemon wasn't, contrary to popular opinion by greens, grooming Rhaenyra when she was a young child. There isn't really any indication that he paid particular attention to his 8-year-old niece - he was mostly sulking on Dragonstone in a relationship with an adult Mysaria for starters, and then he was off in the Stepstones till Viserys and Alicent's 5th wedding anniversary tourney.

From then, no I'm not in favour of a 30-year-old Daemon and a 15-year-old Rhaenyra... I am not in favour of childbrideros. But considering he'd been absent from her life between the ages of 8-15, and there is no indication he ever paid any attention to her before then... it is less creepy than Criston Cole being Rhaenyra's shadow from the age of 7, with rumours of a sexual relationship beginning at a point when she would have been 12-14.

By Westeros standards Daemon unfortunately falls into the 'culturally normalised and could have a whole lot worse' category (and tbf, considering the popularity of ships like SanSan...). This isn't a pro-daemyra or anti-daemyra post, I'm not really going to go into their relationship or whether or not it's healthy here, just clarifying that Daemon isn't the Humbert Humbert of this story - that would be Criston (not being Humbert Humbert of course is a very low bar).

And when it comes to the casting and how that impacts audience perceptions... Matt Smith at 39 was too old for both 24 and 30 year-old Daemon (though exquisite in the role of course).

Considering how his haters condemn Daemon for his actions in episode 1 while excusing Aegon for rape and Aemond for murdering Luke (and burning alive many many other children)... Let's have a look at an age-appropriate actor for 24-year-old Daemon and see if that changes anything.

Ooh would you look at that, Ewan Mitchell at 24 while filming S1.

Or Tom at 28 during S2, just two years younger than 30-year-old Daemon. With a face that wins hearts over rape. You telling me if Daemon was his book age you wouldn't be excusing his actions? You wouldn't be taking all the rape apology arguments Aegon stans use and applying them to Daemon's seduction of a 15-year-old Rhaenyra?

Especially if you still had him acting alongside 21-year-old Milly, who was supposed to pass for a 14 to 18-year-old Rhaenyra.

Hopefully though no one would be excusing a younger Daemon played by Tom Glynn-Carney if he had been put against an actual 14/15 year-old like Evie Allen. Who would have been a more age-accurate (and disturbing) casting for Rhaenyra...

Oh wait, how old was Maddie Evans (Dyana) while filming S1 again? 15? Never mind.

Casting teenagers in such scenarios is of course a difficult business - above all the first priority is to protect underage actors. Milly was well-suited to convincingly play Rhaenyra from early teens to late teens, and it's impossible to constantly re-cast for absolute age-accuracy across the time jumps. But it does impact perception - while the first priority is to protect underage actors, the casting of older actors to play teenagers does contribute to society's perceptions of teenage girls in particular as mature adults, rather than children.

Meanwhile the attractiveness of adult male actors - and the younger they are - does indeed shape what some audiences are willing to forgive or excuse. Reactions to Daemon and Viserys by fans (especially green fans) would be radically different if they were cast with their book ages - sorry to say it greens, but your objections to their characters is in large part due to the fact that you are not attracted to DILFS (or leprosy!). And even if we still aged up Rhaenyra like the show does when she first met Criston Cole, reactions to him during the Dance would be vastly different if he was played by a book-accurate 47-year-old. Again, Fabian Frankel is younger than Emma D'arcy.

Of course, the bar for age accurate casting is clear in the way we were supposed to accept Olivia Cooke playing Tom Glynn Carney's mother (they are two years apart).

Because again if Alicent had been 18 at the start of the show and 41 at the start of the dance she would have ceased to be an interesting character or something I guess. Because no one wants an older woman (ew gross!) as the series co-lead alongside a non-binary lead. And because mother/stepdaughter relationships are inherently one-note while BFFesbians are inherently rich, deep and complex... apparently. It has nothing to do with, you know, the writing quality.

Final Round!!! Aegon and Aemond picking fights with kids

Harvey Sadler here is 8/9 years old when he played young Lucerys. Which makes this baby face 2-3 years older than... a six-year-old Book Jacaerys when 10-year-old Aemond was 'pummelling him savagely'.

So yeah, "3 against 1" - the oldest of those 3 being younger than Harvey Sadler. And honestly, 6-year-old Jace has my undying respect for the sheer balls on him to go up against a bigger kid twice his age and size. Does he care that Aemond has just claimed the largest dragon in the world? No, he pushed over his baby brother!

"But it's more interesting if Aemond and Jace are peers" Maybe. If HOTD gave Jace equal screentime and character development perhaps. But they didn't. Any value added by making the antagonist interesting and sympathetic is cancelled out if the cost is ignoring the protagonist or making the protagonist boring (especially in a family civil war drama!).

"But sympathetic Aemond is much more interesting" I am not arguing against making him sympathetic. He is still a kid here, and he still has Aegon to bully him and earn him pity points and trigger a cycle of bullying as he takes out his grievances on others who don't deserve it etc. You don't need to age up his victims or remove sympathy or screentime from them. Sympathy doesn't have to be zero-sum.

Leo Hart was 13 at the time of filming, so the perfect age to play a 12-year-old Jace during the dinner scene where a grown-ass Aegon picks a fight with him over asking Helaena for a dance. Also an accurate age to play a 13-year-old Luke when Aemond murders him.

Elliot Grihault who played teenaged Luke was meanwhile actually closer in age to Book Jace during the dance than Harry Collett (no offence Harry, you still made a more believable teenager than 24-year-old Jon Snow did).

And lest we forget Aegon's true nemesis... 13 year old girls on tiny dragons 'no bigger than a horse'. No offence to a 24-year-old Bethany Antonia, but Shani Smethurst at 12 was perfectly cast to play Baela during the Dance and absolutely would have been the next Arya if this show didn't hate black girls.

But hey, at least we got adult Baela saying "I am blood and fire" while the script struggles (*cough doesn't bother) to find her anything to really do. That sure is an improvement over book Baela acting out, causing chaos, kissing kitchen boys and crying to save them from punishment, grieving alone on dragonstone after the gullet, trying desperately to get the adults around her to believe her suspicions about Grey Ghost, wrecking Aegon on her tiny dragon, being forced to grow up quickly under captivity and fiercely defending her rescuers from execution.