#ramblings of a classicist

[valiantvillain]

You ever think about Odysseus reconnecting with his old war buddies that are still alive after the Odyssey? Gets caught up on the whole family drama shenanigans with Menelaus. Gets sad when he finds out Diomedes never really returned home and went all the way to Italy. Goes all the way to Pylos to thank Nestor for hosting his son and definitely takes note that Telemachus seems rather keen to accompany him, and how he really seems to be looking at the pretty daughter Odysseus didn't remember Nestor having before the Trojan War. And suddenly neither father is quite sure who roped who into marriage talks but both like to think it was themselves purely for ego.

This has been another round of late-night ramblings about the Odyssey. It never ends and it never will.

[littlefankingdom]

Simple observation I made from reading these comics. DC, stop making their dad an asshole and make him hug them more.

Also, the hugs in these comics:

Tim's hug is not in Red Robin but it's during the run and when Bruce comes back in time.

Cass' hug is weird because they're suicidal freaks who think fighting is therapy. They fought while being drugged, and blew up a brigde. It makes sense for them only.

Jason's first hug (Outlaws) is after he tries to apologize for his crimes and Bruce refuses to let him to do it, because his boy is innocent for him 🥺 (and then, they fucked it up with Ethiopia because they cannot let them have nice things 🙄). The second one (Red Hood & Arsenal) is started by Jason, who is just very happy to see that Bruce is alive, even if he has lost his memory.

[telemachea]

classist and classicist being spelt so similarly will always be so funny to me bc some people in academia will really be acting like they are one and the same

[dootznbootz]

I constantly feel like I gotta constantly reiterate my lore for my goobers every new post because Water Wife is just that much of a freak. :/

"Wait, why does Penelope have sharp teeth-" Because she's hot? Because she's full of whimsy? Because she's 3/4th Naiad? Because she's a menace?

[hmslusitania]

Saw the fountain in person and like yeah okay I get it

[thirteenemeraldcats]

I come bearing random fic asks! 1) tell us about your current wip(s)! 2) what's your writing process like? 3) I think you mentioned you have a background in psychology — how much does that influence your writing?

Hello my beautiful friend!!

Thank you so much for sending me these! I have been sitting on this for days because I wanted to banish 'thought that i was young' from my WIPs before answering lol

1.) Now that THAT'S published (and taken most of my WIP wordcount with it *sad violin noises*) there's 3 fics I'm actively poking at, the chunkiest is a Sam-and-Jamie-BFFS-agenda-6-conversations-they-might-have-had-and-one-they-definitely-didn't which I'm pretty sure I've posted a snip of SOMEWHERE before whoops. The working title was too long for me to cope with, to the extent that it managed to override my inability to make my mind up about anything, and is now called 'i said, maybe' - a line I've gleefully pinched from Wonderwall by Oasis! I like it for this fic because *gestures at working title* BUT ALSO Wonderwall is the song Sam sings at karaoke in 1x07 'Make Rebecca Great Again' and the Manchester connection tickles me greatly!

There's a non-angsty, short-ish (I'm honestly shocked) fic that fell out of my brain nearly fully formed a couple of weeks ago (because almost everyone I knew was either talking about or having birthdays) which ALSO has a title 'because he had no say in it (no say in it at all)', which is almost definitely going to be posted next (and hopefully a LOT sooner than the time-space between 'i learned to walk while he was away' and 'thought that i was young').

The only other thing I'm actively poking at right now is in the outline stage, it is also short-ish (please PLEASE stay that way) but is back to the angst-fest that is apparently all my brain wants to spit out. It's Jamie-centric. It involves a cat :)

2.) Honestly at this point my writing process is best described as:

(sound warning)

ANYWAY

(My actual answer about my writing process is that I love planning. Very much. Stretching the dough into spaghetti is where the problem lies 🫠)

3.) I do indeed have a background in Psychology! Like any undiagnosed-in-denial-17-year-old-DUMBASS, I studied Psych right out of high school due to a combined and truly harebrained motivation of 'what IS going on up there' and 'wow I love systematically studying, analysing and mimicking human behaviour [no underlying NOTHING going on up there no siree]' and wound up with a four year degree. NOW, my background is purely theoretical, I have never been registered as/worked as a Psychologist, so I'm not violating any ethical codes by using my knowledge for evil applying my Psych training to fictional stories/characters. Because the answer to 'how much does that influence your writing' is. SO MUCH. Not necessarily intentionally, there's only one fic in the extended-mountainous-WIP-pile that's explicit about Psych stuff (I'm giving Dani Seasonal Affective Disorder whoops), but psychology is one of those fields that once you're trained in it you can't really ever un-know it. Unfortunately for me, and everyone that I meet, there's forever a predisposing/precipitating/perpetuating/protective biopsychosocial model being drawn up in my head whenever someone exhibits any kind of behaviour my forebrain finds moderately interesting. (This doesn't happen with online friends DON'T WORRY [in truth it's only because I can't physically see you all- I AM SO SORRY- I am not in control of this]).

Honestly, I think a big part of it is just that my particular brand of pattern-recognition-AuDHD has been granted auto-inserted citations and gone mad with power.

Take Jamie, beloved stress ball that he is, he has so much psycho-analysis potential that I'm forever torn between wanting to write a dissertation on the various comorbidities that could be floating around in that guy's head, having a Watsonian v Doylist argument with myself about ~artistic intentions~, having to suspend disbelief for the sake of storytelling because I've been cursed with knowledge (gleefully and enthusiastically sought out and paid for knowledge) and just wanting to enjoy the story/character as they're presented/as I'm writing it.

Applying actual Psychology to fictional characters is like trying to tie a balloon to a moving rollercoaster, for the simple fact that they're not real; their actions and motivations and reactions are scripted and rehearsed and performed.

I'm doing it anyway :)

[doomdoomofdoom]

Friend of mine, based on some research into the translations of bible texts, believes that Mary wasn't a virgin, but rather a very virtuous woman who was never touched by evil. Of course, since she wasn't yet married to Joseph, they weren't allowed to be intimate, but overcome with love for each other (the biggest virtue of all) they did so in secret, conceiving their son. God, seeing this not as a sin, but rather a declaration of all that is human and virtuous, deemed this child fit to carry his message of love into the world.

I didn’t know until recently that Catholics think that Mary stayed a virgin forever.

You do you guys but I’m Protestant so I know she f- *I am hit over the head with a comically large hammer*

[nighttimeclassics]

so im just thinking about the Orpheus and Eurydice metaphor in Dead Boy Detectives again...

so i really cant get over the symbolism in the show's comparison between Edwin and Charles and Orpheus and Eurydice. I'm sure someone else more succinct than me has already talked about it but man i just have to because as a classicist it has been consuming my brain since it happened... this is going to be a shitty ramble, but we vibe

so in the show, it is Edwin who first realises his feelings for Charles, and is the first to to truthful about them. Given that, in most translations of the tale of Orpheus and Eurydice, Orpheus' devotion to his wife is seen as the "stronger love" between the pair. highlighted in later adaptations such as Hadestown, as Eurydice makes the active choice to go to the underworld and leave her husband rather than their wedding being overshadowed by issues "worse than any omens". therefore, Edwin could initially be seen as the Orpheus parallel. particularly when you consider that Edwin 'guided Charles from the darkness' when he was dying of hypothermia with the lantern

however, unsurprisingly, given that is it Edwin who escaped from Hell, and is returned to it, Charles appears as the Orpheus parallel, with Edwin being his Eurydice. this is obviously then made super explicit in the show with it being Charles rescuing/ leading Edwin out of Hell. but even then it is not that simple

In Ovid's Metamorphoses, when pleading with Hades and Persephone, Orpheus states "my wife is the cause of my journey. A viper [...] robbed her of her best years. I longed to be able to accept it, and I do not say I have not tried: Love won." and obviously at the core of both of these relationships, is a deep deep love between them, regardless of how that manifests. Something i think is a massive parallel that i haven't seen anyone talk about yet is the willingness to remain in the Underworld/Hell for their respective partners.

going back to Metamorphoses, when Orpheus is requesting Eurydice's return to the mortal world, he gives Hades and Persephone an alternative solution of sorts. he says "if the fates refuse my wife this kindness [of returning to life], I am determined not to return {to the mortal realm]: you can delight in both our deaths." now is this not effectively the same thing Charles says to the Night Nurse when bargaining with her to open a door to Hell??? Charles says "then open up a door and I'll go get him, then we're stuck in Hell and you know where we are, or, I bring him back and we're all yours. It's a win-win." tell me that these aren't the same. you cant.

But i do think the most interesting parallel is when Charles and Edwin are running up the spiral staircase. i am not mentioning the times when escaping Hell, Edwin overtook Charles running, because let's be honest, we all know he is the faster sprinter of the two given the 70 years he spent practising. so I am disregarding that. but what I do find fascinating is this - and why I said it was more complicated earlier; in the metamorphoses Orpheus is obviously given the stipulation that he must not look at Eurydice when guiding her out of the underworld, or the agreement "would be null and void". and its here that we see another reversal. during the majority of the run up the staircase, Charles is behind Edwin, because like we have established, he's speedy. but in this key moment, Charles takes the lead in their escape, walking in front of Edwin whilst making it clear that they need to keep moving. just like in the tale, Charles, fulfilling Orpheus' role, "Afraid [they] was no longer there, and eager to see [them], the lover turned his eyes", turns to look back at Edwin, delivering the ridiculously romantic, 'sorry, no version of this where I didn't come get you is there?'. however, after this he refocuses on continuing up the staircase, which is where Edwin steps in:

as you can see in the gif, currently, Edwin is in, what I'm going to call the 'Eurydice position', following the lover out of the afterlife. and it is Edwin, as Eurydice, who basically chooses to condemn himself to the underworld/ hell, allowing the demon to catch up with them just to 'see [his] lover' and ensure Charles knows that '[he] had been loved'. t

im just going to put the section where Orpheus looks back at Eurydice in here because I think its all relevant:

"Afraid she was no longer there, and eager to see her, the lover turned his eyes. In an instant she dropped back, and he, unhappy man, stretching out his arms to hold her and be held, clutched at nothing but the receding air. Dying a second time, now, there was no complaint to her husband (what, then, could she complain of, except that she had been loved?). She spoke a last ‘farewell’ that, now, scarcely reached his ears, and turned again towards that same place"

by forcing Charles to turn around and face him, Edwin is fulfilling the roles of both Eurydice and Orpheus. in this instance, he is the one 'stretching out his arms' to hold Charles, but he is also the one that could be sent/ dragged back to the afterlife for this, but he just had to make sure Charles was aware of his feelings for him, to know that he was 'loved'. and I think Edwin was potentially prepared to return to the Doll House, or at least believed he would be able to find it more bearable knowing that he had been able to bear his soul to Charles, eve if that meant Charles couldn't come back again and try to rescue him for a second time, which Orpheus tried to do in the Metamorphoses, "Orpheus wished and prayed, in vain, to cross the Styx again, but the ferryman fended him off" and I feel like we all know Charles would have also kept trying if he lost Edwin again.

i guess, what im trying to say, in the most long-winded way, is that Charles and Edwin don't fill binary roles of one of them being Orpheus and the other being Eurydice, they are both of those things to one another throughout the show and I think that's really beautiful and I have to give massive credit to whoever did episode seven because I really feel like they did their homework. even after all the ramble I have written I still feel like I haven't fully made the point I was trying to make, but I definitely got some of the way there I think

[valiantvillain]

Very often I find myself thinking about the fact that several Greek cities were probably left with women in charge for ten years while their kings & princes were at war. I mean between Clytemnestra, Penelope, and Aegiale (Diomedes' wife), these women were basically expected to hold down the fort until their husbands came back. Which kinda blows my mind bc while these men were going off to war and treating women like war prizes, their own fucking wives were ruling in their stead and probably having some real power and agency for the first time in their lives because for ten years they did not have to answer to their husbands. I dunno, just something that occasionally fascinates me and I want to write something about it sometime.

[maruyaaya]

OF COURSE!!! i'm a massive classic lit nerd so i have to collect all the pretty classic lit books that i can.

if i had a nickel for every time i called achilles "gayass" in my annotations, i'd be rich. i saw gay, i said gay!! he's gay!! his relationship with neo is so special to me bc we get so little of it in the myths and yet it's almost always mentioned at least a little bit bc it's so important to both of them.

so the thing about neo's name is that in ""canon"" (i'll refer to greek myths as a whole as "canon" bc that's easier than elaborating on what i mean every time LOL), i don't think there's a specific reason as to why his name changes from pyrrhus to neoptolemus. i could be totally wrong and have missed a certain myth (i do not claim to have read every myth ever LMFAO so if anyone wants to correct me, please do) but what i know, it's just something that happened as myths were created and progressed. the original myths have neo being named pyrrhus at birth and then at some point, his name in the myths changes to neoptolemus and as far as i'm aware, there is no "lore" reasoning for that if that makes sense. it just happens. i believe there was also then later a retcon that neoptolemus was actually his birth name and pyrrhus was a nickname given to him by achilles and deidamia bc of his red hair. i personally prefer the initial interpretation of neo's name being pyrrhus at birth and then changing to neoptolemus. the specifics of his name changing to neoptolemus during the war is my personal lore reasoning for makign sense of that change. i think it makes sense canonically because neo's name changes from pyrrhus to neoptolemus around his time during the trojan war. so basically when you're reading myths, there's kinda a 50/50 chance of whether he'll be called pyrrhus or neoptolemus and i kinda took that change and made it angsty and ran with it LMFAO.

(never give me a chance to yap because i won't stfu HAHAHA)

NEO WILL GET SOME SOFTNESS!! he deserves it at this point. actually one of my fav headcanons is that neo is musically talented just like achilles but he never got the chance to practice it like achilles did. if neo were to sit down and try playing the lyre, he would probably be able to pick it up very quickly and be very good at it like achilles was, but he never got that chance

(and spoilers but in my head, i have a plan for a scene in the neomachus fic where neo will get the chance to learn to play the lyre)

i also like to headcanon telemachus as being tone deaf just bc i think its SO FUNNY LMAO

MY BOOKSHELF!!!

there are a few awkward spaces bc i’m loaning a few books to my friends rn BUT IM VERY HAPPY WITH IT!!! it’s all alphabetical by author last name save for the top right shelf which has all of my jane austen books. i do have some books that aren’t on this shelf as i keep them in my room. this shelf is constantly being reorganized as i buy more books but for now, im happy with it <3

[crabs-with-sticks]

Okay, but I just watched The Return (2024), which is an adaptation of The Odyssey, specifically the part where Odysseus returns home to Ithica, and oooh boy its giving post-veilguard Solavellan vibes! And y'all are going to get a long ramble of my thoughts because I have classicist training and you can't stop me.

Because Odysseus (and Solas) have changed. They both went to war for 10 long and bloody years. Neither particularly wanted to go to war, even though the seeds of the war were unknowingly sowed by their hands (the Oath of Tyndareus and the creation of the fade), and Odysseus does his absolute best to get out of it (similar to how Solas was going to tell Lavellan everything). But he went anyway and the war was brutal. A 10 year long siege, of throwing bodies at a wall. And then, when the war is at its end, when they are finally winning (because of Odysseus' plan), the sack of the city is brutal. Like I cannot emphasise how fucking brutal it was. The reason why Odysseus takes 10 years to get back (like most of the greek heroes end up dead) is divine retribution for the sack of Troy.

But now to Penelope (or Lavellan in this analogy), Odysseus' wife. She has waited for her husband to return for 20 years. She too has been under siege for three from the suitors who all want to marry her, and thus become king of Ithaca. She has been trying to keep her kingdom at peace. She devises cunning ways of putting them off and is in a fight (of a different kind) to regain her autonomy, but she cannot hold out forever.

Which brings us to the lead up to this scene. Just before this scene, Odysseus has murdered the suitors, as well as made their son into a murderer who has now left. And Penelope is horrified at what her husband has done. And she is angry, angry at the bloodshed and angry at being left alone for so many years. And when she asks him why, Odysseus responds "would you still love the man I had become?" And it is when he asks her for forgiveness that her anger breaks into tears.

But oooooh boy her helping him wash the blood off?? And seeing his new scars and saying "there is so much I do not know", him saying "you do not want to know" ahhhhhhhh and then "your past will be my past, and mine yours" its so perfect!

Because they've both changed they're 20 (or 10 for solavellan) older, and they've changed and they've both gone through so much trauma (I love the way this film portrayed Penelope), but they're choosing this. They're choosing to forgive and to heal together, literally washing the blood off him.

[emperornero]

I think I've followed your blog for some years but it's always a delight when see your posts in my dashboard. There's something really funny to me about seeing fellow Nero "fans" out there.

Just this summer I submitted my university final thesis about Nero's Rule and it's relationship with Seneca's ideals and kingship theory. While I was working on it I found that none of my classmates seemed to care about the subject so it really makes me happy when I see other people interested in the topic.

Sorry I rambled a bit haha Just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate your blog :)

thank you so much for the kind words and sharing your story ! too bad your classmates werent interested in your thesis..

always glad to talk about nero on here even if im not a classicist and just research him as a hobby :]

[palamedespoetry]

xndead. (pronounced "ksun-dead")

morcia / natalie. it / vamp / he / ghost.

16 (minor), 🇵🇭🇸🇦 filipino - saudi latino.

schizophrenic & autistic. (please be patient.)

dark + mature content ahead, with little to no tagging. multifandom, and i must warn that i rotate between interests like roulette often! i currently talk about mythology / classics, but just know i'm not a classicist or scholar, so please don't expect much.

formally: stylosha, palameiad.

socials.

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tags. (currently still updating)

content warning tags.

content warning tags are formatted as "cw [subject]" such as cw blood, cw abuse, cw incest, etc.

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maricest / mariuscest — marius x marius selfcest ship tags (and yes i am dead serious about this)

marimae / marius x mael — marius x mael ship tags

maridoxia / marius x eudoxia— marius x eudoxia ship tags

maridora / marius x pandora — marius x pandora ship tags

marianca / marius x bianca — marius x bianca ship tags

avimari / marius x avicus — marius x avicus ship tags

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maavimae — marius x avicus x mael ship tag

antinous of ithaca & suitors of penelope / the palace's traitors - specific tags

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melanthius — general character tag

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agamemnon — general character tag

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agaody / odysseus x agamemnon — agamemnon x odysseus ship tags

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diodymedes / odysseus x palamedes x diomedes — odysseus x palamedes x diomedes ship tags

palachilles / palamedes x achilles — palamedes x achilles ship tags

[figbian]

what if i returned to classics twt (<- this is the devil speaking)

[june-sunsets]

Your response reeks of 'I will twist every sentence into something else'. First of all;

'How nice of you to accuse me of xenophobia because I believe that a book that hasn’t even been published shouldn’t be ridiculized. Very rational.'

I did not accuse you of xenophobia. Where on earth did I accuse you of xenophobia? You read 'you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology' and what you got from it was 'xenophobia'? Are you kidding me? What I wrote is literally what it says on the tin (which is not xenophobia). And OP did not ridiculize anything; they made a humorous speculation on a future book and you couldn't handle it. Very mature.

'If you believe that the concept of ancient greek mythology retellings as a whole is disrespectful, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I just find it completely unnecessary to insult this woman’s intelligence and speak of her as if she’s an idiot to be led by the nose.'

In the conclusion of my 'rambling' I state that this isn't about all retellings being inherently bad:

I believe a good retelling can be done. It's possible. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to find (or, apparently, extremely hard to write). Most myth retelling writers do the same mistake Miller does; looking at ancient myths through a modern lense, and judging them based on that. Then they claim they can 'fix' them (which is another level of insulting) and they end up distorting those myths to the point where they are completely different stories, unrelated to the original source.

Also no one insulted Miller's intelligence? No one called her an idiot. In fact, she might know exactly what she's doing. I just don't agree with it, I think it's wrong and she's being disrespectful to the mythology and the culture it originated from.

(There is a general misconception of Greek culture in general when it comes to Western academic circles. It's frustrating.)

'And how is that her fault? Anybody who buys a retelling and becomes convinced that they are reading the true and original version of the story is an idiot. Madeline Miller’s books are advertised towards adults.'

That's true, anybody who buys a retelling thinks they are reading the true of the story is an idiot. But there's a problem in Miller's attitude towards mythology as well. How is it also not her fault, when she says things like 'the ending of the novel is a huge pushback against mythology' in her interviews? Really, Miller? Are you comparing yourself to Homer? Are you saying your retelling is on a par with this thousands-of-years-old epic? Be for real.

Ultimately, the fact that she's a Classicist means little to me when she characterizes mythological figures -mortals and gods- in a way that reduces them to caricatures; she simplifies them so they can fit the boxes of modern character tropes.

That's when retellings become direspectful. And that's an instance where changing an existing character's personality is bad writing. Especially when this character was originally pretty complex and means something to the people of this culture.

As a Greek person, I have the right to call her out on that.

I didn't accuse you of xenophobia, but I'm pretty sure you accused me of being anti-art. So no, I'm not anti-art. I'm just Greek and irritated with Miller's BS. People are allowed to express criticism on art. All art, including Miller's.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

[memento-mariii]

Look, I like the modern retellings of the Hades & Persephone myth as much as the next person, but I have no idea how it became the poster-child for the beauty-and-the-beast type romance in Greek mythology when Eros and Psyche are just. Right. There.

It's got:

✔Cupid fucking around with his arrows in other people's business causing problems for everyone and thus jumpstarting the story

✔The "Abduction as Romance" motif (which can be problematic for obvious reasons but hey if you're a fan of Hades & Persephone my guess is you're into that)

✔The overbearing b*tch of a mother who hates your SO and does everything in her power to keep the two of you apart*

(*which, by the way, Demeter *ISN'T* and have done nothing to deserve the slander)

✔Cool contradictory aesthetic stuff going on that pastel goth peeps probably love (Persephone with flowers and Psyche with butterfly wings; Persephone is the queen of the underworld and Psyche has that death & rebirth symbolism going on)

✔A main couple that fights to stay together

✔A happy ending with the child standing up to the toxic mother & basically telling her to shove it

✔Also if you absolutely cannot live without Hades & Persephone they make a cameo appearance