#shipcourse discourse

[corviddusk]

from my bluesky

Lolicon/Feral/Paraphila Hot Takes

This is a series of fakes centering subjects such as CSA, CSEM, vCSEM, Pedophilia, Zoophilia, and Necrophilia from the perspective of someone who's been in both anti and pro paraphilia spaces and well as anti and pro ship.

1. Yes, if you're into lolicon (specifically if you are sexually aroused by vCSEM) you are a pedophile. It might be as a person with typical pedophilia or autopedophilia. There are types and subtypes of pedophilia, fictional content is something that is liked by all types of pedophiles past those who like fictional content. Fictophilic pedophilia is still pedophilia. You are engaging in fantasizing sexual abuse of children. That is a form of pedophilia.

2. Both proship and antiship communities lead to grooming and brutalization of children. Anyone who is inviting children into debates on pornography, knowing their a child, is a groomer. Yeah talking to a 13 year old about how incest porn is hot and trying to get them into it is grooming. (This is a vague to a specific incident)

3. As a human trafficking survivor myself- calling illustrated materials vCSEM is correct and should be done ESPECIALLY when it's of real children.

4. I don't take issue with the term CP, it is pornography. Pornography has never included consent it's only included being sexually gratifying to people. I'm allowed to call the videos and pictures of me from when I was a kid CP. I did fucking porn as a kid, I don't care if that makes you whiny or it's icky. That's what I was forced into. That's what happened. It's what my abusers see it as. It's specifically in my case CSAM.

5. Feral porn being something you're sexually aroused by when it comes to depictions of something that is a real existent animal means you're a zoophile. If you get any arousal from the idea of ACTUAL animals even conceptually, you're a zoophile.

6. Zoophilia, Pedophilia, and Necrophilia are disorders that should be treated by medical professionals. There is no such thing as any of these three conditions being non-disordered as they all come with attraction and wishes that necessarily include a lack of consent. Intervention prevents crimes.

7. Being sexually aroused by Guro that *includes death* makes you a necrophile. If you're aroused by porn with it you're a necrophile.

8. I believe the classifications by Anil Aggrawal are accurate in describing the disorders aside from class 1 as in those cases they are more likely than not unrelated to any genuine attraction to the object at hand that the paraphilia is centered on. The attraction comes from roleplay itself.

9. No paraphile regardless of their risk of offending should be around their object of attraction unsupervised when it comes to paraphilias which requires the "object" (not literal object but object as in sentence structure kinda way) to not be able to consent. Literal objectophilia is fine however, as it's not leading to harm as the object is not capable of being harmed in any meaningful way. Being attracted to real physical objects is not a disorder unless it causes distress and should not be lumped in with ones that require harm to another party if acted on.

10. Paraphilia spaces are deeply unsafe and often lead to becoming more and more okay with illegal actions. These spaces should only exist with a supervising therapist.

11. Sometimes there's a difference between an actual paraphilia and a recurrent sexual fantasy reliant on past events and closer to a flashback. However it is not fully inaccurate to label someone in this case as a paraphile. It is between them and their doctors. The doctor has the final say.

[bump-inthe-night]

I long for that day that shipping labels die because what is this nonsense?! People take shipping so seriously that we literally have numerous factions now, which is insane as hell to me. Shipping discourse is inbreeding itself, becoming more convoluted as new labels are created to fight over. A ship is a ship, and that’s it; shipping isn’t complicated and shouldn’t be made into such.

Please let these shipping labels die so people’s minds can heal from this online mess and fandoms can become more peaceful and less stressful.

[darci-tbh]

everytime I see antis call themselves punk I lose hope in the internet again

I don't know how to say this but policing people's right to create and consume any fiction they want AND advocating for the corporal punishment of "thought criminals" cannot and will not ever be punk. shut up

[purpurship]

Made this

I'm such a barbarian 💔 so gross and uncivilized

[leyleysgrave]

and this is why i trust proshippers over antis

[kaeyaswifefromsnezhnaya]

"fiction affects reality", then what about fiction about good? If we start creating content about a better life, will it change anything in reality? It would be nice

But I doubt it

[el-sandwich-de-geto]

Honestly, I've started to think many Antis get their impression of proshippers from edgelord teens on the stupid Discord servers and Roblox games they're on...

Yeah, horny teens who thought they were "hot shit" existed as well when us adults were in the "proship-by-default" Internet we grew up in.

Y'all know the type I'm talking about: That one clown who'd call young girls "IRL lolis", send hentai unsolicited, talk way too much about little sisters and comment sexually on people's trauma. (Coincidentally, they'd usually also be the ones who make racist jokes, attack people for their ethnicities, etc; which is a behavior mostly seen in Antis but I digress.)

And yes, to a teen's developing mind, you'd see many of them like the same shit some proshippers do, and you'd assume they're the same people.

The difference is they're dumb hormonal teens with no self control, while most of us who call ourselves proshippers are adults with more than one braincell, who understand the damage censorship would do, no matter our personal feelings about the content. I assure you, 80% of those edgelords have NO IDEA what proship even means.

They're not us and they'll never be.

[hyperfixatingsohardrn]

People are saying the relationship between Jayce and Viktor is “brotherly love”.

As someone with a brother, I don’t get it.

My brother would never choose me over his wife like Jayce chooses Viktor over Mel. Nor would I expect him to.

My brother would never look at me the way Jayce and Viktor look at each other. Nor would I expect him to.

My brother would never choose me over his own childhood dreams, the way Jayce chose Viktor over giving HexTech to the people. Nor would I expect him to.

Is my brother broken or something? Is that what siblings actually do and I’m in the minority?

[unfamiliar-ghostly-system]

Shoutout to everyone who is against/does not support the proship community who isn't an insufferable bully! Being anti-proship does not make you an evil pro-censor-everything who thinks they are the most moral pure being or whatever. You are not, and do not have to be, the caricature that others paint you as.

[vending-wonderland]

You know, I tried to re-enter the Invader Zim fandom last year because I thought we were all past the "ZaDr is pedophilia" "ZaDr is proship" discourse? Like, I thought everyone finally came to their senses and realized that Jhonen Vasquez is full of shit. I was wrong and ended up leaving the fandom AGAIN because it's still just as bad as 2020.

Jhonen HIMSELF has had GaZr fanart on the walls of his office (Which makes him a pedophile too if you think ZaDr is proship btw). He has also been recorded MULTIPLE TIMES talking about how much he hates ZaDr shippers and any fans of his that don't interpret the show how he wants them to and how they aren't "real fans".

It's been 6 years and you people still can't do an ounce of research to save your lives. ZaDr is not a proship. Even if Zim IS 100 years old (Zim does not have an official canon age and NO Jhonens tweets do not count) he has been stated to be mentally the same age as Dib in the show (ALSO BY JHONEN).

PLEASE CAN WE JUST LEAVE IT BEHIND FOR 2025! ITS BEEN 6 YEARS SINCE THAT STUPID FUCKING TWEET THAT RUINED THIS FANDOM!

[bump-inthe-night]

Although I don't ship JimCurly I do understand why people do: it's because of how fucked up it is. Curly is an enabler who believes there's good in Jimmy and keeps trying to push him in the right direction. He keeps putting his hand out for him, despite him never improving as a person. Curly felt like it was his responsibility to help Jimmy and chose to be blind to his behavior.

Jimmy leeches off Curly, despising and envying him while also needing him to survive. He wants to ruin Curly's life but still needs him to stay around in some form. Jimmy has become so dependent on Curly that being around him brings him a twisted form of comfort despite his hatred for him.

Jimmy and Curly have an unhealthy but interesting relationship, and I can understand why people would want to romantically explore it.

[beth-squared]

Okay last time posting and reposting nothing but discourse, but people who think ships dictate your morality are so weird, but it's even weirder finding them in the Rick and Morty fandom.

"Enjoying a show where they have flat out said an ableist slur, had multiple adult x child relationships, canonical selfcest/incest yuri, have two characters make a giant incest baby, and make multiple jokes about a peepaw getting with his grandson is fine, but if you make content with *ANYTHING LISTED ABOVE* you're a disgusting freak who needs to get out down like a DOG"

Get real.

[purpurship]

Fic: Dead Dove: Do Not Eat!

Antis: *eats it anyways- the whole thing infact*

Antis: ew, I hate eating doves! That's it, I'm tired of eating doves. We must eradicate all doves from existence so that this never happens again

Fic: tf did I just say-

If you feel described by this post (antis), don't interact! It would be so funny to laugh at how stupid you are if you do though.

[shadow-redferne]

Proship vs Anti Discourse is Why We Can't Have Nice Things

(PT: Proship vs Anti Discourse is Why We Can't Have Nice Things) (Trigger warning: This post discusses multiple sensitive topics, including abuse, bullying, bigotry and suicide. Reader discretion *heavily* advised)

I've finally gotten around to this post and I'll admit I can already smell the hostility. Just some disclaimers: This post isn't me commenting on the morality of certain media or ships, nor is it me commenting on whether or not fiction affects reality. This is only to talk about the damage this kind of discourse has done to fandom. I am going to warn you: This is *not* a post full of kindness. I am not going to be nice. This post is going to be a bit mean. No. Very mean. Sorry about that. So, TL;DR: Both sides have a harassment problem, and neither side wants to address the issues their communities have, leading to fandom becoming an unsafe environment. So uh, I don't think I need to write a witty introduction here. The current state of fandom is rancid. Harassment has become a giant fucking problem lately. So what's the problem? The problem lies in one thing: 'Proship' vs 'Antiship' discourse.

"Shadow, what the fuck do those words mean?" Proship used to mean that you supported all ships, all forms of fiction, and that you were against harassing anyone who was involved in fandom, as well as against censorship. 'Anti', or 'antiship', meant that you were against some forms of fiction and shipping, mainly ones involving minors or incest. Now you might've noticed that I used the phrase "used to" and the word "meant". That's because both terms kinda got new definitions and became buzzwords, with proship turning into a synonym for 'problematic shipper' (the term 'darkship' eventually came around to distinguish the two apart from my understanding, but uh...as you can see it hasn't helped much!). On top of that, people use the word 'proship' as a verb or type of content rather than an actual stance (ie. 'proshipping', 'proship content', 'proship artstyle', you get the idea). However that's not the main point here. Let's cut to the chase now; both sides fucking hate each other; we'll make that clear, with both sides throwing vile accusations towards one another. However, the more I looked into the swamp, the more distrust I gained for both sides. Something was bothering me, but what? I tried to do a survey; two of them in fact, to see which side was more hostile. Unfortunately, neither survey gave me a lot of useful results, considering I got very little responses from the anti side (So uh, thanks for nothing on that end guys. /nm). The written responses did give one common theme: Fandom has a problem. A problem with harassment, bullying, creeps and bigotry. The antis are particularly horrible when it comes to this. I'm going to start this off by saying that I actually used to consider myself an 'anti' due to my discomfort with noncon and incest. And unfortunately, I was pretty fucking hostile to others (although I never sent death threats, fuck anyone who does that shit). I eventually stopped associating with the 'anti' side when I saw how rampant the ableism was- more on that later. 'Antis' have caused severe harm to fandom, and I don't really understand how anyone can deny that. However, I am pretty fucking tired of everyone pretending that the 'proship' side is the good side. I know the 'proship' side isn't going to like hearing this, but it needs to be said: You guys are *just* as guilty as 'antis' when it comes to being toxic. And I'm not saying that because of the pro-incest stuff or the minor/adult pairings. I'm saying that many 'proshippers' are way too comfortable with being creepy towards others, and the community that claims to be 'anti-harassment'... isn't all that anti-harassment! Here are just some of the written responses I got from the survey:

Here's one alibi from an anonymous user who submitted to the @selfship-confession-box account (pls let me know if you dont want to be tagged)

Another anon that was submitted to the @proship-anti-discussion account

Lastly, here's some of the replies and reblogs to a post talking about an 'ex-proshipper' that left the community due to negative experiences (the OP of said post and the 'ex proshipper' in question did eventually apologize to each other, so I'll cut both of them some slack. I'm only showing the responses because holy fuck are they rancid).

So yeah. So much for the 'proship' community being "anti-harassment" and inclusive to SA and grooming survivors. Now, to the 'anti' side. I will say, the 'proshippers' got one thing right, and that's the fact that 'antis' very much fucking suck. And remember when I said that 'proshippers' were hypocrites? Well, 'antis' are also that. They talk so much about protecting "sa survivors" and how "proshippers are bigoted". But what do the written responses say about this?

and let's not forget *this*

I also want to bring up this comment about the term 'proship artstyle' that I thought was worth mentioning:

In other words... 'antis' aren't as great to hang around either! Now, there's one particular issue I really want to zero in on, and that's the rampant ableism from both sides. As one of the above written responses say, there is a huge problem of 'antis' and 'proshippers' misusing words like 'psychotic' and 'delusional'. The r-slur is also pretty rampant, I've noticed.

Still don't believe me? Okay. Here's a more recent example from an anonymous 'anti' I came across (ironically enough this came up when I searched "proship ableism". Also. fatphobia too? pick a struggle anon)

And that's not even getting into the amount of 'antis' who weaponize the saying "seek help" or "go to therapy". Now, let's go back to the terms supposed original meanings, particuarly the meaning for 'proshipper'. That term was supposed to mean that you were against censorship and harassing people for fiction and ships, and that you didn't judge people for liking certain ships. Meanwhile, 'antis' were supposedly about wanting to get rid of problematic media that could be harmful to minors and SA survivors. But it's time to be honest: Both sides have lost the plot. How am I supposed to believe either side is "anti-harassment" when neither side knows how to respect boundaries? How am I supposed to believe either side cares about SA survivors when you have both sides constantly speaking over said survivors and also harassing them? How am I supposed to believe either side cares about minors when there's been individuals on both sides, yes, including the so called "antis" that "care so much about protecting children uwu", that were outed as groomers? How am I supposed to believe either side is the good side when you have things like this happening:

The last thing I take issue with? The terms "proship" and "anti" as a whole, as well as every single similar term that's come out of this mess. While I do genuinely believe these terms were probably helpful in the past, it's clear that they're not doing any good whatsoever. Both terms have had their original meanings muddied and twisted to the point where they basically have no meaning at all, and the terms existing have created a massive "us vs them" mentality within fandom. There's also the issue of both sides forcing labels on others. I've seen posts that are all "if you believe x, congrats you're a proshipper!" or "if you believe y, you're an anti!". As well as anyone identifying as 'neutralship' (a label I also used to identify with before I stopped associating with these labels entirely) being called a "closet proshipper" or an "anti in disguise". Personally? If you have to force people to pick a side in order for you to trust them, I don't see why I should trust you. If you have to rely on labels like "proship", "anti", "anti-anti", "anti-harassment", "anti-censorship" to come across as a safe person or a good person, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to see you as a good person. You might be wondering why I included the "anti-harassment" and "anti-censorship" labels in that. Well, I'm going to be honest, and you are welcome to disagree with me on this, but I feel like these terms are so fucking unnecessary. Being "anti-harassment" and "anti-censorship" is the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM, a bare minimum that neither side can truly follow. Also, calling yourself "anti-harassment" doesn't automatically make me believe that. Especially when it's been proven time and time again that 'proshippers', the side believed to be 'anti-harassment', isn't all that 'anti-harassment' at all! Now I know what you're thinking at this point; you're thinking that I condone harassment because I'm going after both sides. You're thinking that I don't give a damn about the death threats that 'antis' have sent. No. No. No. That is not what I'm saying. And honestly, if *that's* the message you're getting, I don't know what to tell you.

So no, I'm not saying harassment is good or okay (and if that's the message you got from reading the above... I genuinely do not know what to tell you). I'm saying that you don't deserve a medal or a cookie for not sending death threats or being against people who send death threats, when it's literally the BARE MINIMUM. The bar is in fucking hell at this point. And as it's been shown, neither "proshippers" nor "antis" are truly anti-harassment. Me not liking 'proshippers' doesn't automatically mean I'm okay with sending them death threats, and me not liking 'antis' doesn't make me okay with abuse. And it sure as fucking hell doesn't mean that I don't care either. Because guess what? I do fucking care. It's why I'm fucking making this post in the first place. I shouldn't have to identify as "proship" or "anti" or any other labels to tell you that I care. Me refusing to use a label doesn't mean I'm apathetic to all the harm that's happened. And I sure as hell am not condoning harassment by refusing to hold hands with individuals who can't even bother to respect each other's boundaries. And honestly? If you interpret "I don't support proshippers *or* antis because they both made fandom toxic and unsafe" as "I condone sending death threats and rape threats", that's kind of on you. Here's a simple message I have for anyone who calls themselves "proship" or "antiship", and I am going to be especially mean here: Stop pretending to brand yourselves as the good guys when all you've done is break boundaries, talk over abuse survivors and marginalized groups. Stop being hypocrites, and actually address the issues within your goddamn communities. And stop downplaying said issues by saying "BUT THIS SIDE IS WORSE!" or "BUT THEY DO IT TOO!". Also, stop forcing people to use your dumb labels. Literally all of this could be fucking solved with using the block buttons or report buttons. There is no reason for this stupid fucking infighting. You don't have to like each other, fuck no, but quit dragging those who aren't involved into your messes and ruining fandom for everyone.

To "antis": Quit pretending to care about SA survivors and minors when you're the ones sending them death threats (And maybe address the fucking groomers within your community too, by the fucking way). To "proshippers": Stop being a dick to people who have had negative experiences with your community, stop ignoring the bigotry and stop letting in predators within your community. Now lastly, I know I said I wasn't going to comment on stances, but I do want to say this because it's also very much fucking bothering me. I hate how this discourse just boils down to either "Fiction DOESN'T affect reality at all, it's 100% okay to support ANY kind of media/ship/pairing no matter how problematic it is, and if you disagree with that you're a fascist!" or "Actually supporting ANY kind of media that's problematic and/or depicts so and so is BAD and if you support that you're a horrible human being! And if you disagree with me you're just as bad!" Have you guys perhaps, I don't know: Considered a fucking middle ground? Have you maybe considered nuanced discussions? How about that? Okay, I'm done being mean. In fact, I actually don't have much else to say so here's a video that talks about it a little more nicer than I do

*Sigh* I'm going to regret posting this, aren't I?

[kiwisandpearls]

really really really hate when people say people shouldn’t ship certain ‘immoral’ ships because it could influences kids.

it is not the responsibility of people in online fandom spaces to restrict what they get ship for the sake of the hypothetical kids.

[el-sandwich-de-geto]

me tryna follow a blog entirely unrelated to shipcourse: pretty things yaaay :)

blog entirely unrelated to shipcourse: proship/neutral/anti-anti dni

me: >:(