#sysmed discourse

[thecircularsystem]

Take 2: Take on Sysmed

I wrote up an entire post (well, half of a post, but it was already over 1k words) on this topic, but that isn't going to be seeing the light of day. Off to the private blog it goes.

Take two. Sorry if my words are a bit disorganized; this is a really... really personal topic for me, and to see it brought up as it is has been hard. I need to get some sort of words out there or I think I'll go insane.

Genuine TL;DR: I used to go by the label pro-endo sysmed. It was stupid, but there were a lot of reasons -- the biggest because I needed to claim some sort of control over the fact that everyone hated me, and at least if I was a bigot, it gave them a reason to hate me. I discuss my experience with kink at pride discourse and how gentle teaching changed my perspectives, but "treating the bigot like the bigot they were" was just triggering and didn't help at all. Lastly, I talk about shame and how the term "sysmed" is largely (if it's ever really used for "activism" at all) attempting to teach through shame, which isn't effective. There's also a bonus screenshot at the end of the spark of this discussion from discord.

Not very long ago, though it feels like eons now, I identified "proudly" as a pro-endo sysmed. I recall saying some bullshit about how it was "reclaiming an insult that was used against me," but I was in denial. Hardcore, heavily traumatized denial.

I was just trying to claim the ostracization as something that was my choice, instead of everyone else's.

It was prideful, foolish, and hurtful, and I still stay up at night thinking about how fucking stupid I was. I've had to do a lot of therapy to look at my younger self and not hate him for who I am now, but moreso, who I was then.

Because with everything in my life, it was what I needed. It was all I had.

...

When I first returned to the pro-endo community, I was met completely with scorn, hatred, and distrust. It's hard to sort out the memories now -- more and more signs that it was heavily traumatic for me -- but I remember a little. "The Respectability Politics Syscourser" who sucked anti-endo dick and licked their boots, apparently. I'm sorry that the first person who validated my struggles -- who treated me like a disordered system in need of medical help -- was an anti-endo. I didn't agree with his beliefs. Not at all! I fucking hated him, honestly, I felt disgusted at having to "play along with the enemy."

I even joined a server, which I later called home and formed an (unhealthy) attachment to, just to "speedrun getting banned" from an anti-endo server. I did this more than once.

I was pro-endo, through and through. And yet...

I was frequently met with the term sysmed, online, despite my pro-endo beliefs. I was harassed for being friends with anti-endos, because "they're the bad guys." I was told that I needed to "look to myself for why I was being harassed" when I explained to a user, with screenshots, exactly who was harassing me and what had been said (slurs and suicide bait, 17 times in a row iirc, across a single day). I was told repeatedly that it was what would happen, since I allowed anti-endos to interact with me, because once an anti-endo, always an anti-endo.

Once a bigot, always a bigot.

...

Each time it happened, I was brought back to my middle and high school years. Literally -- flashbacks are a bitch.

I was raised a Republican. I finally, finally changed my voter registration this year, after being forced into selecting R as a child. I was raised racist, homophobic, transphobic -- any form of bigotry, and I probably was raised with it. I went into detail in my first draft, but genuinely... I don't even know how worth it it is to try to explain to you all how absolutely alienating it is to be everything you were raised to despise, fear, and pray for salvation for.

And the online community didn't fucking make that easier. (In all honesty, neither did the offline communities I was in, but again, the trauma dumping needs to be held back with a goddamn knife at this point).

When I first started saying my opinions online, I received harassment for my bigotry. "STFU Terf." "Christians DNI get the fuck off my post." Nothing as horrific as what I've experienced in my time as a syscourser, but I witnessed far, far worse from far more outspoken individuals. I didn't say much about my bigotry online, as I had already learned, by that point, that every single word out of my mouth was clearly the wrong words, and that I was just a stupid, horrible person for ever believing anything.

And online spaces reinforced these disordered beliefs.

I think the example that stands out the most (and forgive the 18+ content here, but this goes on the main blog for once, I just need this out-) was when I got into Kink at Pride discourse. I was horrified by the idea of kink at pride, as someone who experienced absolutely horrific abuse from kink shit. I couldn't imagine someone in a leather mask at pride because of my trauma. I couldn't... Ah, knife point again, trauma dumping.

Anyways. I went on an entire rant online about it. About how people have triggers, etc etc.

I was met with slurs, harassment, and people spamming my DMs so much with explicit BDSM that I still, to this day, struggle to DM over tumblr with anyone other than my now spouse.

So I went to my friends, complaining about it. Because this just reinforced my beliefs. This reinforced for me that KAP was a bad idea, because all the people who believed it insulted me, harassed me, and triggered me. Clearly, they're the bad guys, right?

I am still so, so grateful for the friend I had at the time who (incredibly gently, incredibly carefully, understanding before I even did just how traumatized I was) explained how kink belonged at pride, and the historical precedent for it, and everything. And I think the most important thing out of that conversation was where they said it's okay that I was wrong.

IT'S OKAY THAT I WAS WRONG.

Just thinking about that moment makes me cry again. It was okay to be wrong. It was safe to be -- yes -- the bigot in the situation. Because I was! I can recognize that now! But at the time, all I could realize by the end of the conversation was that I had been wrong, and it was absolutely fucking shit-myself-levels of terrifying.

Being wrong isn't safe. Being wrong means I deserved it.

I deserved the harassment. I deserved the hatred. I deserved the pain, and misery, and I deserved the triggers that fed on my SA, and I deserved to be punished.

Because I was a bigot.

But they showed me I didn't deserve pain and insults and hatred just because I didn't know. Just because I couldn't know, until someone taught me the way I needed to be taught.

They took the time to figure out how to tell me the information -- which strangers online had not done -- and they gave me what I needed. They didn't insult me. They didn't fucking crucify me for what I had said.

They weren't polite or sugarcoating, either. They were gentle, but blunt. Firm and kind.

And, because of that, overnight I became less homophobic and less transphobic. I made public posts about it. I was thrilled, at the time, when even a single ounce of praise came down the anonymous inbox.

"I'm glad you're not a stupid bigot anymore."

...

I look at syscourse in the tags.

"I'm not here to make bigots comfortable."

Cool. They'll keep being bigots then.

"I shouldn't have to be polite to people who don't believe in my existence!"

Cool. They'll keep being bigots then.

"If you support sysmeds, you're supporting sysmed rhetoric. If you let one Nazi at the bar, it's a Nazi bar."

Cool antisemitism. They'll keep being bigots then.

If all of your activism for plural rights begins and ends at the word sysmed, you aren't doing anything to combat sysmedical beliefs. You're just keeping the bigots angry.

...

Not long ago, I used the term sysmed for myself. I still look back with disgust at my prior self, and force myself to love him for what he survived, how he did it, even if it was "wrong." Even if we're still "the bad guy" because we love our past self, because we fought to survive and change. Because we had once been bigoted, but we didn't hold that against us.

I still look back at messages sent in a plural server I'm in about how "I honestly both wanna try to figure out what makes them tick and also wanna run in the opposite direction of them" and how they would like to preemptively kick me from their server since I was "so confusing." I doubt that individual remembers saying it, and I don't hold it against them. I would be uncomfortable around me too.

I just also have my own shoes to wear, and my own perspective to see, and looking back now, I know why I used that term. It wasn't... fucking reclaiming, or whatever I said to myself to live in mental health hell denial for a little bit longer.

It was so that, since nobody gave a single fucking shit about me, at least I knew the reason why.

Because I was a bigot. And I deserved every ounce of hate I got.

Right?

...

So, my thoughts on sysmed, and hopefully this'll be the last time I mention this.

The term, as it is used currently in the community, forces those with bigoted mentalities -- mentalities they may or may not even be aware of being bigoted -- to remain bigoted. It slots people into The Bad Guy role effortlessly, allowing people to dehumanize bigotry when the source of bigotry is how people treat others. Dehumanizing bigotry only encourages the spread of it.

I think there are times in discussions where it's used properly. I've seen sysmed used to genuinely discuss an individual's beliefs and how they were, specifically, medicalizing all of the varied forms of systemhood/plurality/multiplicity, and how that was wrong. It's so, so rarely, but I've seen it. I've even used the term in discussion before, though sparingly, as I rarely find use for it in discussion.

But 99.99 times out of 100, it is used to insult someone else.

...

I'm a teacher. I don't know about you, but I never learned -- and I absolutely do not fucking teach -- through shame.

And the term sysmed only shames people into doing what you want them to.

If you want people to learn -- to grow -- then you have to fucking work for it. Not rely on a catchy term.

...

(Below, I'm going to include a screenshot from a discussion I had about this in another server. For context, I had just said that I also feel a lot of discomfort for the terms TERF and transmed. I couldn't find a good way to squeeze in this part of the discussion, so have a bonus.)

[sophieinwonderland]

People can have their own opinions on things. I just wanted to provide my own input as well, to show that there's many different sides to this. Sorry for any misspellings, dyslexia. Also this turned into a vent so you don't have to reply, Sophie. None of the feelings directed at the anon.

As a tranz person and someone who identifoies as plural, I don't think the term sysmed is transphobic. As long as it's used as the original definition, it describes exactly what it is: a person who believes that systems are only ever "real" systems if they're medically recognised, but usually only if they're diagnosed with DID/OSDD. Tbh even then they get really nitpicky with it and you can be medically recognised and they will still fakeclaim you for something.

It doesn't matter that it's the same as the word "transmed" with just the trans part changed, because the word means exactly what it implies. A system medicalist. That's what they are.

I know that it's not the same as trans issues, but they're not the same things, so ofc they won't have the same issues. And even if we tranz people are discriminated in a lot of ways, including not being able to transition, and transmedicism refers to that last part specifically, systems are also discriminated against by saying they don't EXIST. That's not the same as being able to transition or be recognised as who you are, but tbh, saying you're not real and being sent death threats and being ostracised by your family and friends and society in general cuts deep and it IS still real pain. Just because it's not as palpable because it's not always a visible, physical issue doesn't make it less discriminative.

I find that pain of being told I shouldn't exist, that I'm not allowed to exist, that I am hurting others by existing and taking away resources from other "real" people absolutely vile. And I need a term to describe that pain. When singlets see people saying that shit on TikTok, they accept it word for word just because it came from other systems and because they don't wanna be offensive and side with the "fakers". By calling everyone either "anti-endo" or "pro-endo" or "endo-neutral", we're making it up to sound like a fucking game where you can pick and choose whether you support someone's rights to exist as themselves in a public space.

You cannot choose to go "well I don't agree with your existence so I'm just gonna decide you don't exist/don't deserve to exist/don't deserve to get medical treatment, actually" and expect people to go "yeah that's cool you're just anti-(insert thing) we can agree to disagree." Systems are still quite covert in public spaces. And sysmeds PAINT THE IMAGE OF HOW THE PUBLIC SEES US, and therefore bow it treats us.

My existence is not something you can just disagree on. Not my trans one, not my plural one. You cannot deny it from me, from us. I exist, get over it or get the fuck out of my way. All of us or none of us.

I'm not gonna call someone who says all that to me an anti-endo because it doesn't go deep enough (and it's not even a correct term every single time beacse ANY kind of system gets discriminated against by sysmeds, not just purely endogenic ones). I'm gonna call that person a sysmedicalist.

I wouldn't call a person telling me I'm not really trans because I don't have dysphoria anti-trans, I would call them a transmed.

I wouldn't call someone telling me that because I don't experience every single symptom in the DSM-5 manual an anti-endo, I would call them a sysmed.

Not meaning to imply that anon thinks any of the things I just said, by the way, this all turned into a giant rant. We can agree to disagree on the term part, I respect that.

But my opinion is that the term sysmed in an on itself is not transphobic. it doesn't minimise the pain we go through. It just described a plural specific type of issue that funnily enough tends to mirror plural issues when you really think about it. And it's important to me to have that kind of word that doesn't make my discrimination sound like an opinion, but like the bigoted view that it is.

Have a good day, anon, and you too, Sophie :)

This is a great addition! Thank you for sharing! And you have a good day too! 💖

[system-gatekeeper]

listen up you fucking newbies. i'm here to set the record straight. this whole "everyone's a system" bullshit? yeah, that's getting old. real fast. like, do you even know what you're talking about? probably not.

if you haven't got years of trauma, actual documented amnesia, and a therapist who's seen you switch so hard it makes their head spin, then shut the fuck up. you're not a system. you're just quirky. you're just "having a mood". get over yourselves.

i'm tired of seeing these "sysmed" and "plurality positive" debates. there's no debate. there's reality and there's your delusional bullshit. if you're not suffering, you're not a system. period.

i'm here to call out the fakers, the trenders, and the attention-seekers. if you don't like it, block me. i don't care. i'm here to protect the real systems from being diluted by your bullshit.

you want to be part of something? join a fucking book club. stop appropriating a disorder you clearly don't understand.

and yeah, i'm gatekeeping. someone has to.

[the-hadal-zone-sys]

Friendly reminder: if you go through a period of rapidly forming new headmates, that DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE FAKING!! It just happens sometimes. Brains are weird.

[sysmed-supreme]

Trauma makes systems. Full stop. This blog is for clinically recognized dissociative disorders, not roleplay, not spirituality, not "self-discovery." If you don’t have trauma, you don’t have DID or OSDD. This is not a safe space. It’s a reality check.

[lovewireds]

not to be the syscourse guy again but saw someone complaining about the term sysmed from awhile ago and need to get pissy

slight paraphrasing: "what have traumagenics ever done to endogenics on the level that transmeds have done to trans people"

sysmeds made me dig into trauma to feel like i was valid, only to find out we are only partly traumagenic and it wasn't even the main cause for our system (in other words: for no damn reason! it only fucked us up more!)

sysmeds very commonly say "endos aren't real" y'know like...one of the most triggering things to say to anyone with unreality & dissociative issues?? much like how transmeds claim nonbinary ppl aren't real because there's no "nonbinary brain"??

sysmeds spread misinfo about dissociative disorders (ex. the DID age limit shit is like saying "your brain stops developing at 25")

sysmeds deny the plurality of cultural experiences they don't understand, much like transmeds, because cultural experiences "aren't comparable" (when suffering doesn't have to do with shared common ground)

sysmeds would rather lick psych boots than listen to lived experiences, much like transmeds!

this is coming from a trans system who has been affected by both, they're very comparable thx. (both radically pro-psych bootlickers)

[cynicalundead]

it's depressing how many anti endos pride themselves on hating others and being unbearable judgemental assholes. "I'm mean get over it" "unapologetic asshole" "proud gatekeeper" like I get the whole Cycle of Abuse thing (been there) but damn. reeks of hate group circlejerk.

[deakwithit]

Sysmed is a very stupid term.

ill never get over how stupid of a term "sysmed" is

its taken from transmed, which is a terrible term within itself as transmeds fucking suck

it makes no sense

transmed means: "Transmed, short for transmedicalist, refers to trans people who believe that dysphoria is required to identify as transgender."

Being transgender and having a mental disorder like DID/OSDD are two very different things. Comparing those two seperate experiences is asinine.

Gender is a complex thing that cant be defined by dysphoric or non dysphoric, it doesn't boil down to gender dysphoria. It's the wonderful euphoria you get from finally understanding yourself, its the euphoria and joy you get from being seen as your true self for the first time. Equating being transgender to suffering is inherently bad, which is why pushing the idea that you NEED to have dysphoria to be trans is bad.

But DID/OSDD are disorders *caused* by suffering. They are nothing even nearly comparable to being transgender.

Being a system cannot be defined by euphoria. Why anyone would be euphoric over dissociation, confusion, amnesia, splitting, etc is beyond me. It just isn't a thing.

Sysmeds are sysmeds because DID and OSDD are clinical disorders proven to be caused by childhood trauma.

Sysmeds are sysmeds because were tired of people using mental disorders as fun little terms.

You don't have to suffer because you CHOOSE this. Plain and simple.

If you don't suffer because you're a system, then you're not a system. It is inherently disabling and causes suffering, or atleast impacts and impairs your daily life.

Sysmedicalists are people with common sense who listen to science. That is all

[puhoyqueer]

Golfstance (or Golfqueer if you prefer): A blankqueer/blankstance inspired by memes that say "I just wanna golf" or "I just wanna barbecue." It means someone who hates discourse and just wants to relax, but specifies that they're anti radqueer and anti harm.

Golfstance is against:

sysmedicalism, fakeclaiming, and ableism such as MUDs, disorder faking on purpose, or the idea of "(disorder) abuse"

xenophobia, colorism and racism

radqueers, fults, xenosatanism, winterqueer, and any subset terms

assault and grooming

acting on paras that inherently harm the object of attraction nonconsensually

sim and real CSAM (definition)

debating on which queer labels have the right to use certain slurs

debating on who has it worse

transphobia, transmisogyny, and anti transmasculinity

Golfstance supports:

nontraumagenic plurality

abusers who genuinely want to change

all paraphiles as people

people with atypical dysphoria from any source

reclaiming queer or mental illness slurs for oneself (not as an insult towards others)

Golfstance folks are probably:

tired

have a job or are in school

are adults

find discourse and debates exhausting or a waste of time

Anything not specified, this term has no stance on and is up to the individual. Emoji code for this if you would like one is ⛳🌈 or 🏌️🌈!

Tagging: @blankqueer

[moonpool-system]

hmmm gonna be a little bitey here but, plural community acknowledge that systems & system members can also be otherkin challenge. Lots of systems end up masking with kin shifts, but the narrative always seems to surround those that realize all their otherkin identities were actually other members. And there's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it gets to the point where people invalidate otherkin systems with that concept??? And they don't seem to realize how much variation there is. What about the systems that realized only some are kintypes and some are other members? What about systems that realized their kintypes actually belong to different individual members of the system? What about kinforms where the person they came from is still otherkin afterword? What about past life forms, whether they ID as kinforms or not? Exotraumagenic members? What about members that discovered their own kintypes after they arrived/formed/split? Medians that feel like they're both? We can't just brush this sort of thing aside. All alterhumans deserve to have a voice about our experiences. Otherkinity is deeply personal and can be intertwined with plurality in so many ways, and the prevailing narrative doesn't account for that.

[termedking]

tbh i hate going into any system space and being flashed by syscourse about endos. who are YOU to tell people if they have a disability or not? are you a doctor??? "endos aren't in the dsm5" okay? why does that bother you so much, most traumatized people don't even remember their trauma. the way some people get so mad when they see a endo/willow/whatever the fuck is unhealthy. syscourse is stupid. "endos aren't real" okay. can we go back to just...i dont know, actually helping people who are systems? not trying to figure out someone's personal life and if they have did/osdd or not? i mean you dont even KNOW the people you're getting mad at personally. this shit annoys me so bad because it's useless discourse. it's not helping anyone.

side note, i am not a endo/williow/whatever myself but you get the point. it's no one's job to "figure out" if someone is a valid system or not.

[shitty-proendo-blackout-posts]

I'll never understand why antis are

[kingdeus]

Reaaally bored at work so it's rant time. Idk if I or someone else ranted about this at some point already but whatever

Wdym "sysmed"? Isn't DID/OSDD a medical disorder to begin with?

I get why "transmed" is a thing because being trans is a gender identity. It's who you are. Sometimes you're born with it, sometimes you find out later in life. And so many other things. It's not a disorder...no matter what some dipshits say.

So first, please don't lump gender identity and mental disorders together.

And second. Like I said, it's a disorder. It's found in the DSM5 which means Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition. It's seen and treated as such. It's diagnosed by doctors and treated with therapy. All of that is medical stuff. So I don't understand why so many people use "sysmed" as an insult, or something negative.

Which does bring me to "systems formed without trauma" and or "non-disordered systems"

You cannot have a "non-disordered" disorder. You cannot have DID/OSDD without trauma. I'm not here to police what trauma counts and what doesn't because that's not important nor it is my place to judge. But some trauma is required to shatter your personality into pieces.

I'm not saying things that might appear as/mimic these disorders don't exist. I'm not saying you can't have the presence of multiple entities within one body/mind. But that is not DID/OSDD. Even the articles people usually send us to prove their point clearly state that "DID should not be assigned in these cases".

All that so say "non-disordered endos" please stay out of the DID/OSDD community/spaces. Your experiences are SO different from ours. And uneducated people might look at "non-disordered endos" and think that's what the actual disorder is

[sysmed-supreme]

Alright, listen up. I have been lurking in the #syscourse tag for way too long, and it is finally time to bring some reality to this mess. You can call me sysmed-supreme, because let’s be real, someone has to hold the line.

Here is the deal: if your system did not form from trauma, why are you even here? DID and OSDD are not identities, aesthetics, or fun little social groups. They are dissociative disorders, as in medically recognized, clinically diagnosed, and actually studied. This is not a playground. If you do not have trauma, you do not have DID or OSDD. If you do not have DID or OSDD, you are not a system. Period.

Yeah, I am gatekeeping. Because someone has to. If there is no gate, this entire conversation turns into a free-for-all roleplay server, and I refuse to watch that happen.

Anyway, I am here now. This blog is officially sysmed territory. Expect rants, receipts, and people losing their minds in the notes. If you are actually here to discuss things like an adult, stick around. Otherwise? Do not waste my time.

[xaocchaos]

"the term sysmed is transphobic"

I guarantee you it is not

[deakwithit]

the amount of times i've followed a person for MONTHS only to find out theyre anti mspec gay is cray cray like why do u give so much of a fuck..go outside..yall will go to a gay bar wondering why mfs arent talking about flag discourse. like get a jobbb get a hobbyyy...