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atopvisenyashill · 1 month

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Alysanne-Daughter-of-Maegor AU

Maegor Targaryen serves as his brother’s Hand for six months before eloping with Alys Harroway, a female line descendant of House Qoherys - and thus partially Valyrian, perfectly suitable as a bride for the increasingly desperate Maegor. Forced into exile by King Aenys, Alys births her first and only child in Pentos, who she names Alysanne.

After slaughtering every descendant of House Harroway - except his daughter - and naming Walton Towers as the new Lord of Harrenhal, a distraught Alysanne demands to know why her father has not chosen to bestow Harrenhal on her instead. In lieu of an apology, Maegor has her betrothed to Walton Towers’ grandson, Mathis Towers, who will one day inherit Harrenhal. Before the wedding feast ends, however, Maegor flies back to King's Landing, Alysanne in tow, and sends Mathis out to fight the Poor Fellows.

When Hand of the King Rogar and Queen Regent Alyssa decide it is time to send Alysanne to Harrenhal to take up her seat - and marry the last of Walton Towers' grandons, a sickly infant named for her father, 15 year old Jaehaerys absconds with Alysanne to Dragonstone where the two are married, though they do not consummate the marriage until nearly a year afterwards, when Jaehaerys reaches the age of majority in 52 AC.

Jaehaerys’ Seven Speakers work for him for far longer due to the delicate peace that could be upended by both the marriage to Alysanne and Jaehaerys’ conviction to marrying his children to each other. The Speakers travel for years, in between rests at Court, talking up the piety of sweet Alysanne as well as Doctrine of Exceptionalism that will one day apply to the King and Queen’s children at several points throughout their reign.

Alysanne convinces her husband to pass several laws throughout her lifetime and tenure as Queen Consort. Though called “Queen Alysanne’s Laws” in King’s Landing, there were many that referred to her influence as The Laws of Abomination, a way of undercutting the good Queen's judgement by invoking her father's madness and monstrosity. Regardless, these Laws of Abomination remain codified into Westerosi Law into the present day.

Though much of her reign as Queen was marked by the shadow of her father’s legacy, the realm began to soften towards Alysanne as she demonstrated a compassion, intelligence, and respect for propriety that far outmatched her father and even on occasion her husband. By the time her first grandchild is born, the smallfolk had started referring to her as Good Queen Aly for all the ways she had improved their lives.

some more explanations here for the nerds!

Talked before about my “lucas harroway was a female line descendant of the house qoherys” thing, but to go into more detail here: Quenton Qoherys was already an aged man when he was gifted Harrenhal by the Targaryens (this is canon), and was eager to move his large family into the seat. One of those that came with him from Dragonstone is his daughter Quannah (made her up) who had married and had children with Ser Lothston Harroway, a knight in service to the Targaryens at Dragonstone. The two had many children, including Lucas Harroway, who inherited Harrenhal through his mother when all of Quenton’s sons and grandsons had died. Yes I have essentially done a “Harry the Heir” in the Riverlands, thank YOU!

I messed with the timeline because otherwise Jaehaerys is just too much older than Alysanne for this to be a plausible “love” story - anything more than 4 years I think seems like Obvious Grooming whereas Jaehaerys and Alysanne have always been a more lowkey, "banality of evil" type relationship. So Jaehaerys is a lil younger and Maegor speed runs his meltdown lol.

If it’s unclear, Towers line goes Walton -> Jordan (Walton's son) -> Mathis (Jordan's first born son) -> A Bunch Of Other Sons -> Maegor Towers (Jordan's last son). But then Maegor is like “psyche my daughter is coming home with me” because now he’s obsessed with her and the fact that she is the Only child he managed to have.

I wanted to add more queens laws simply because I wanted to give her more proto social justicey causes that make sense for the time period. I tried to base it off legal rights women had not just in medieval Europe but, since we have the whole "Great Empire of the Dawn" background, Han China as well! I thought since Maegor jerks Aly around a lot, she’d codify laws regarding daughters the way she did widows. So Alysanne convinces Jaehaerys to codify-

A man cannot abandon his daughter. Daughter abandonment was a big historical issue and I think if brought to her attention, as a daughter with a deeply weird dad, she would pass something that says no, if you have a daughter with your wife, you have to care for her, you cannot just drop her off at some random person’s porch or leave her in the woods to die.

Matrilocal marriages have the same legal rights as patrilocal marriages. Basically, that if a husband moves in with his wife - whether it be because she married down & she’s living with her father or she inherited so her husband moved in with her - they should be treated equal under the law (I can really see like, Iron Islands especially being fucking deranged about matrilocal marriages, and since Jaehaerys is standardizing laws, this is a good one for her to champion).

If a woman is widowed, she must not be compelled to give up her husband’s business. She must be allowed to continue his business or, if SHE desires, sell it/rent the space/etc for a fair price to another tradesman. Merchant class women were usually allowed to take up their husband’s trade, but this is a series with prima noctus so I imagine this is not a standard thing across Westeros and once again something she would want enshrined into law.

If the only heir is a daughter, she must be treated as an heiress because a daughter comes before an uncle. This one I think would really gnaw at her - Maegor essentially takes what should be her seat (as the only Harroway left alive because he just slaughtered her family!) and divvies it up between some random ass knights, then in an attempt to curb her willfulness, Rogar lets those random knights keep her damn castle. It’s her last link to her mother! Too bad, it’s someone else’s now. She can’t take Harrenhal back without looking Maegor-esque but she can make damn sure that if all that’s left is a daughter, that girl has the legal protection to claim her seat! Essentially, Alysanne introduces the title “heir presumptive” into law and gives that title some rights and protections.

I also came up with backstories for her Ladies Court that tie into the Maegor change:

Barba Towers - as a way of trying to make some peace with Jordan Towers’ sons, she takes one of his daughters as a lady when she visits Harrenhal for the first time since her mother's murder during her and Jaehaerys' first progress. To fit with the Harrenhal curse, Barba dies of the same Shivering Sickness little Daenerys dies of.

Poppy Butterwell - If you look through the history of House Butterwell, they seem kind of, um, skeevy. So I decided that the concept of daughter abandonment comes up when Alysanne and Jaehaerys go on their first progress. Butterwell abandons one of his daughters after having several in a row and no sons, and she's taken in by some random innkeeper in town (which is also why she has a more peasant-esque name - her father doesn't bother naming her). When Alysanne holds her women's court in Harroway's Town and puts the pieces together, she takes Poppy in, arranges a match - marrying Poppy high above her station - and starts pushing to pass laws protecting girl children.

Donella Darry - Another lady she takes from Harrenhal, though not until after Barba Towers dies. House Darry is a prominent and consistent supporter of House Targaryen in the Riverlands, and Maegor gives the Harroway holdings (outside of Harrenhal and Harroway's Town) to House Darry. This is a relationship I imagine is a bit strained - Barba and Poppy are both young naive girls in need of guidance but Donella just kind of exists as this mirror version of Alysanne - an eldest daughter jerked around from holding to holding by her father. I like the idea of Donella being heir presumptive of the Darry lands after her brothers die during the Shivering Sickness, and this is how Alysanne gets involved in inheritance laws for girls.

Arwen Sunderland - I wanted to give the Arryns a reason for acting so deranged towards Daella later on (Rodrik’s daughters are so fucking WEIRD my god), so Alysanne asks Arwen Sunderland to be one of her ladies over Rodrik’s daughters. Aly means nothing by it, she’s merely trying to reach out to the Sunderlands, given how unruly they can be, but because it’s early in her reign, and everyone is reading Maegor-esque behavior into her actions, they assume she means it as an insult, and project that onto poor Daella, which makes the Arryn girls hostile to her, and assume a level of spoiled behavior from the very scared Daella.

Elyse Marbrand - I figured after being forced to watch all her aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, on and on be slaughtered by Maegor, Alysanne would be obsessive about finding distant relations. Since Rhaenys and Visenya were big on marrying houses and regions that had some beef, I thought an arrangement between the Riverlands and the Westerlands would work well, and since the Marbrand's are a pretty important house, I figured that was a good match. So to simplify Quenton Qoherys + Elinor Tully -> Alarra Qoherys + Andros Marbrand -> Elyse Marbrand, aka a distant relation of Alysanne’s (through Quenton). Elyse stays at Court even after she’s had children of her own, though, because her husband, Theon of White Barrow, is a beloved musician and patron of Alysanne’s at Court.

Patronages - Queens often acted as culture makers for the kingdoms and Alysanne already does this in canon so I wanted to add a little more with ✨Maegor flavoring✨for her to do and I thought Alysanne acting as a patroness would fit into this well. Again, a little breakdown on my decisions here-

Coryanne Wylde - Coryanne is already a writer in canon and I thought it would be so funny, given how scandalized everyone is over what she writes, if Alysanne is the one bankrolling her. I like to imagine Coryanne kept writing really weird and sexual stories and Alysanne loved it; like medieval romantasy writing haha. I think Alysanne kept this one a secret though because while she did find it amusing, she didn’t want people to think her lascivious like her parents, and in fact Coryanne takes great pains to always depict her Queen characters as sexually untouchable but not prudish either.

Septa Lyra - Lyra is again one of the women sent to be Alysanne’s ladies maid while she & Jaehaerys are in dragonstone. One thing about women writers in medieval times is they were often nuns and they often wrote non fiction about whatever it is they were studying. I thought given Alysanne’s disapproval of the Maesters not allowing women in their ranks, she’d want to undercut them a bit by bankrolling a few female scholars. But ALSO I was thinking given Maegor’s war against the Faith, Alysanne would go to great pains to make sure she’s seen as pious. So Lyra mostly writes about religions in Terros and midwifery.

Septa Violante - She is one of the Seven Speakers and I figured they’re not doing this shit for free! Alysanne rewards Violante by basically writing her a blank check. Violante writes all sorts of field guides, histories of the various castles throughout Westeros, and even several legal works explaining the historical precedent for Alysanne’s Laws of Abomination.

Arwen Sunderland (again) - Arwen writes prose and poetry and while she’s not as salacious as Coryanne, she does have a fondness for stories that take place in war torn kingdoms, going into detail about the fighting and injuries. Her prose and poetry is much more scandalous so Alysanne keeps the identity of the author a secret - BUT makes it clear she is the patroness for that author. The prevailing theory is in fact that Arwen Sunderland wrote the books, something Gyldayn summarily dismisses as nonsense of course.

Theon of White Barrow - One of the only men Alysanne was ever patroness for, Theon is a nephew of Theomore Manderly who lives in the barrowlands. Alysanne arranges a marriage for Theon with one of her own ladies, Elys Marbrand (Aly canonically arranged a match for one of Theonore’s nephews). Theon, who stands to inherit only a modest holding in the barrowlands, opts to stay at court when the Queen becomes fond of his singing, eventually writing many songs and mummer’s shows for the Queen. The reality, however, is that Theon was not the writer - Elys Marbrand wrote all of his music and stories. Theon, Elys, and Alysanne were so close that during the First Quarrel, when Alysanne opted to hide out in Harroways’s Town soon after her husband vacated the Riverlands, the pair came with her to play music for her there as well.

Septa Elinor Costayne - listen. Alysanne spends a tumultuous childhood being jerked around Pentos and Westeros by her parents, is hauled back to KL and given several new mommies to make up for murdering her first one, only for all her stepmothers to be tortured to death as well. I think Alysanne would develop extreme attachment anxiety to both Rhaena and Elinor in the hell that is the last few years of her father’s life. While Rhaena is a complicated matter - I love their relationship as sisters and I think a 'doesn't want to be the evil stepmother but can't help resenting aly' dynamic would be just as rich as their canon relationship, so they are still CLOSE while trapped in KL - I have never liked that Elinor disappears to become a Septa!!! So I made the executive decision to disregard canon in this instance and have Alysanne guilt Elinor into staying in the capital with her, under the guise of being a patroness for Elinor to follow her passions. Even as Alysanne ages and outgrows the need for a mother, and Elinor stays only because she feels indebted for her life and obligated to care for this strange, disturbed woman, Elinor is writing all sorts of essays and papers so she has something to do. Kind of the equal and opposite of Alysanne's relationship with Gael - putting another woman in arrested development because she doesn't know how to cope with her own traumas pressing down on her.

#i put too much effort into this #not my magnum opus but still a masterpiece #alysanne targaryen #maegor targaryen #canon divergent au #rani graphics #rani attempts to be creative #alys harroway #lucas harroway #house harroway #alysanne of harrenhal au #harrenhal #house qoherys

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lemonhemlock · 1 year

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OMG HAVE YOU SEEN THE VIDEOS THIS ACCOUNT POSTS

https://youtu.be/T44VzPAPvSc

Oh my god finally someone with brain cells!!! You have to see their videos they make such good points!!

I, too, enjoy Hills Alive's content, anon! I don't agree with everything she says, but I appreciate how she's not afraid to go against the grain and make the unpopular argument.

My thoughts on House Hightower are very similar to hers, in truth. The amount of hate they get from the audience is downright embarrassing. House Hightower are in no way the villains of ASOIAF. Lord Leyton and Malara have been studying something magical and arcane up in their high tower (heh) for nigh on 10 years and are getting ready for an insane showdown with Euron Greyjoy, one of the actual villains of the series.

The Hightowers are connected to the Great Empire of the Dawn, with sorcery and science and religion and, in a lot of ways, represent the very essence and the very best of Westeros. Their modus operandi for most of their history has been to assimilate, negotiate and rely on soft power, as opposed to violence, conquest or trickery. Their interests comprise education, spirituality and the combination of both within the arcane mysteries. They maintain an open mind and are politically adept. They're very rich, but prefer not to participate in regional or country-wide politics, leaving the Gardners and then the Tyrells to be the official representatives of the Reach. The city of Oldtown is beautiful and cool AF, as opposed to the foul stench of King's Landing.

In the context of the HotD fandom, the problem I have with the majority of black stans is their utter refusal to look at the wider picture of Targaryen rule. For the people of Westeros, they are colonisers equipped with the medieval equivalent of nuclear weapons, threatening them with extreme violence and forcing their bizarre customs on them. They do not negotiate, they demand complete submission or else.

So the way I perceive House Hightower's role within the wider narrative is that their ideology has always centered on incremental progress and societal change via the proliferation of ideas. The only time we see them getting involved in Westerosi politics is by providing two Queens. This happens at a time when House Targaryen is very set on inter-marriages or, at most, alliances with the Velaryons and the Baratheons, if they have to marry outside the family. Both of those noble houses are of Valyrian descent as well. The Targaryens are still setting themselves apart from the society they have conquered and now wish to rule.

The first of the Hightower queens, Ceryse, marries Maegor in the period immediately following the Conquest. There is a 10-year age difference between them, why her? She is the High Septon's niece. If you ask me, this was the Hightowers' first attempt to try to "domesticate" the Targaryens into something more palatable to Westerosi society. The Faith Militant rises up in rebellion against Maegor when he insists on Valyrian customs like incest and polygamy.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne marry very young, so the possibility of another marriage alliance is out of the question. Alyssa and Baelon, a similar situation. Viserys marries his cousin Aemma, naturally, but what happens the next time there is an opening for the position of queen? Alicent enters the stage.

Now, Targ stans perceive the Hightowers as some kind of overreaching, overly-ambitious upstarts, but they are literally one of the oldest great houses of Westeros. The Great Empire of the Dawn predates Valyria. I am not saying that Otto or Alicent couldn't have their very own personal motivations or ambitions, but I do wonder if there is a sort of ideological background or the concept of a higher purpose informing their actions. Not necessarily as part of the show (hard to prove whether they chose to go down that route), but certainly permeating out of the text material and bleeding throughout the course of Westerosi history.

So, in this sense, Aegon II would, in a way, represent the ideal Targaryen king for them - someone connected to the Hightowers via blood, content to let them administer the realm in his stead, while he goes off and does whatever, as long as he performs his ceremonial roles and doesn't cause the kind of trouble that cannot be contained. For the first time since the Conquest, the Hightowers would finally have control over those feared mass destruction weapons and would be able to enact their particular style of ruling, via appeasement and integration.

What I ultimately find funny and ironic is that the Hightowers do achieve these objectives, just not in the way they may have initially envisioned. The debates involving Rhaenyra's ancestors being the ones to carry on the Targaryen line I ultimately find meaningless, because, in the end, the Hightowers got what they wanted. Yes, they sacrificed an entire branch of their family and lost a great deal of human resources and wealth in the war, but the dragons are gone. They lost their queen(s) and their king, but now the Targaryens are just like everyone else. And they'll have to play by the same rules. If they don't, well, expressing dissent has just become a lot easier.

You can definitely argue that the purpose of every noble house is to advance their own cause and their own family and that the actions of House Hightower should be strictly interpreted through this lens. However, after the Dance, the Hightowers do not seem interested in attempting another takeover ever again and are content to exert their influence throughout Westeros via their two very wide-reaching and powerful instruments: The Citadel, who trains all maesters, and The Faith, the main religion of the land. They effectively opt out of the game of thrones again.

The biggest military advantage House Targaryen held over the Seven Kingdoms has effectively been neutralised. The balance of power is much fairer. This creates the conditions that will allow Robert's Rebellion to succeed years later, finally ejecting the Targaryens from a continent they terrorized. Whereas the Hightowers are still there, thriving in their beautiful city.

If you ask me, the blacks can keep this "victory".

#house hightower #house of the dragon #dance of the dragons #asoiaf #ask #anon #i am talking abt macro-politcs and over-arching ideologies here #ofc that on the micro individual level their actions can be just as petty as everyone else's #hotd meta

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merlot-and-chardonnay · 3 months

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My (Very Long) Take on the Blacks and Greens Debate

A day or so ago, I posted a poll concerning which was team Green or team Black (and who didn't want to choose), and maybe some of you probably want my two cents on it. And even if you don't, I'll give it anyway cause I really want to talk about the discourse.

First off, I kinda find the Blacks vs Greens debate to be...well a little reductionist (and I know people might take offense at that so please hear me out to the end if you can).

I think the bulk of the debate boils down not necessarily who you think would be the more suited ruler, but more like who do you like as a person (or people) or who do you hate so much that you think they deserve everything coming their way. For example, I notice people who are mostly team Black tend to idolize Rhaenyra and put her on such a pedestal that they see her through this rose tinted lens that she is saintly, that she did nothing wrong, and that she would make a perfect ruler. Additionally, I notice Team Black also hates on Alicent major time, seeing her as some catty, manipulative bitch who hates Rhaenyra cause she births bastards and gets away with pretty much everything without accountability. On the other side, people who are Team Green I notice idolize Alicent and her children and shit on Rhaenyra major time cause they see her as spoiled and entitled and would kill her siblings without a second thought should she ascend the throne.

And this tend to be reflective in the fanfic writes who are either vehemently team Black or Green

I kinda understand where people are coming from, but the discourse is really more nuanced than that. And to see the nuances get erased just really creams my corn sometimes:

So now allow me to present my two cents.

I find the debate reductionist because it doesn't really take into account other factors that led to there being these polarized sides in the first place: When we think about the show (and the book), how the events in the season that lead up to the Dance of Dragons, I actually think about the very first scene with the Great Council of 101 when King Jaehaerys named his new successor, being Viserys

The moment Viserys was considered above Rhaenys by the Westerosi nobles, that pretty much codified the line of succession, being that the eldest male descendent will supersede any of the women in his family; even though Rhaenys was the oldest descendent, even though she was the daughter of Prince Aemon, Jaehaerys' oldest son and Heir Apparent before his untimely death, she was overlooked in favor of Viserys, who was the eldest son of the king's second son Prince Baelon who also had an untimely death (Baelon was also deemed by the nobles as the next Heir Apparent when he was still alive).

And going on a brief tangent here, this wasn't the first time the line of succession was questioned for the Targaryens due to gender optics. In fact, when Jaehaerys first took the Iron Throne at the age of 14, after the death of his uncle Maegor, his claim was initially challenged by his sister Princess Rhaena, whose late husband was Aegon the Uncrowned i.e. the one was supposed to sit the Iron Throne next as the oldest son of the late King Aenys before Maegor usurped him. Rhaena and Aegon had twin daughters, Aerea and Rhaella. Aera was the oldest, and Rhaena insisted that her daughter be next in line for the throne since she saw her husband as the rightful ruler before the usurping. Long story short, Rhaena and Aerea were overlooked in favor of Jaehaerys.

Later, we see Viserys and Aemma Arryn, even though they had Rhaenyra, struggle to produce a male heir, and until that actually happened, Daemon was seen as Heir Apparent over his niece. Nobody actually considers the possibility that Rhaenyra could sit the throne next, they all assume her uncle would be next should Viserys and Aemma fail to produce a son, and that worries the nobles greatly, especially Otto Hightower who sees Daemon as a potential Maegor should he sit the throne next. In fact, Otto suggested to Viserys to name Rhaenyra as official heir after the death of Queen Aemma and her son, both for the sake of optics, and to save the realm from falling into chaos at the hands of Daemon. The man was so scared at the thought of Daemon being king, he flat out convinces Viserys to name his daughter heir, but only under the assumption that Viserys would eventually remarry and finally produce a son to further the line (something Otto definitely took advantage of when he had Alicent start visiting the king to comfort him in his grief).

This is when we see Viserys finally give into the pressure of his council to remarry. He took Alicent to wife and had a total of three sons and one daughter with her, which is more then enough boys to satisfy the line of succession. Yet, both in book and show, Viserys never renounced his succession, never disinherited Rhaenyra despite her reckless actions (and he points out to Rhaenyra in Episode 4 that this would NOT have been the case if these things happened under Jaehaerys' rule). Despite this, Otto and many others were still expecting Aegon to inherited the throne. Even more so when Rhaenyra "allegedly" birthed bastards with Harwin Strong when she was married to Laenor Velaryon.

This all showcases, more than anything, how incredibly sexist this society is. Not just because Aegon is expected to supersede Rhaenyra in succession because he is a man, but also how this society would be quicker to punish the woman for her misdeeds over the man (i.e when Rhaenyra is held under heavier scrutiny for her three oldest children being potential bastards by someone who is not her husband when her brother Aegon was confirmed to have fathered bastards of his own despite being married with legitimate children).

The influences and expectations of this society are part of what led to the divide between the Blacks and the Greens, but there are also personal and individual factors as well:

For example, Otto, being a man of great ambition, seized the opportunity to plant seeds in gaining influence over the realm the moment he sent his daughter Alicent to read to Viserys as means to comfort him after the death of his beloved Aemma (which wouldn't have happened if Aemma was never pressured to produce a son, but I digress). Alicent, being a good girl and a product of her society, does as she is told, which ultimately led to Viserys choosing her to be his new wife (worth noting Alicent never got an actual say in whether she wanted this or not).

For more insight, the Hightowers are the Lords of Oldtown, which is the original seat of the Faith of the Seven. House Hightower is arguably the most devoted House to this Faith due in part to that history. Alicent herself is pretty devout to the teachings of the Seven, compared to Rhaenyra who prefers to do her own thing. Many of those teachings include that women are supposed to be devoted wives and mothers, not meant to rule but to guide the men in their lives who do rule, which in Alicent's case are her father the Hand of the King, and her husband the actual king (and when Viserys passes, she was meant to guide her oldest son in his rule).

I think Alicent sees herself as someone who is good and righteous because of her devotion to the Seven, and by upholding these ideals both from religion and society, by doing her duty, she believes blessings should be coming her way.

In actuality, Alicent is a prisoner of her surroundings; she was married off to a man she did not love at a very young age, and became a mother a very young age too, she lays in bed with her husband at nights merely for the sake of fulfilling her wifely duties and not out of love or pleasure, and she is expected by her father to raise Aegon to be the king this realm needs.

All these things make Alicent miserable, but she soldiers on as best she can, because deep down she feels it is her duty.

In contrast, Rhaenyra is not devoted to the Faith as Alicent is, nor is she one to follow society's expectations. She is a bold, rebellious, and does what she wants with little regard for others' feelings; she swears, she speaks out of term in a man's presence (refer to when she was serving wine to the council members when they were discussing the Stepstones back in Episode 2), she disobeys her father when she flies to Dragonstone to deescalate the situation there, and she defies her father's expectations when she was expected to take a husband (even more so when she cut her betrothal tour short at the start of Episode 4). She sneaks out with Daemon into town and into the Street of Silk where she had her sexual awakening, and being left wanting for more pleasure (cause her uncle couldn't follow through) she heads back to the Keep and uh, coerces Criston Cole to sleep with her and take her maidenhead (worth noting Rhaenyra did all this with little regard to Criston's oath to the Kingsguard or the fact he could've been killed for breaking his oath if they got caught).

All this being done before allegations against her and her three oldest sons were held against her.

Rhaenyra is the antithesis of society's expectations, yet she does not feel bad about her choices, even if others would consider such choices to be indecent and an affront in the sight of gods and men. She is the blood of the dragon after all.

I think in Alicent's mind, the way she sees Rhaenyra carrying on like this, it makes her jealous on a subconscious level; here this good devout girl had only done what had been told of her for the sake of realm, gods, and family, doing what good ladies are supposed to do, but she is nothing but bitter for her circumstances, yet Rhaenyra is not a good girl by society's standards. She is a rebel and has more agency in her life compared to Alicent, and she is happier for it.

And I think Alicent, after being told by her father that the realm will never accept Rhaenyra as heir, and that Alicent's children's lives will be forfeit should Rhae ascend the throne because of this, there is a confirmation bias on Alicent's part when she sees Rhaenyra behaving as she is. This was further confirmed that night on Driftmark when Luke took Aemond's eye and Rhaenyra tried to make it look like her sons where the sole victims in all this for being called bastards and not Aemond who LOST HIS FREAKING EYE! THE KID LOST HIS EYE AND RHAENYRA WAS PREPARED TO HAVE HIM INTERROGATED OVER A FEW INSULTS.

Sorry about the rant. I'm calm now, let us continue.

Yeah, that was a pretty shitty thing for Rhaenyra to do, but at the same time, if Viserys did decide to actually acknowledge Jace, Luke, and Joffery were indeed bastards, Rhaenyra would probably be expected to be punished for this, be it execution for treason or best case sent into exile (kinda similar to how Sera Targaryen was exiled by her father Jaehaerys because she shameless lost her maidenhead to a man/men she fancied instead of waiting to get married). (Again, this also showcases the sexism of this society).

Rhaenyra is not a saint, that much I can agree on with the pro Greens side...

But neither is Aegon.

Yes, I am going there (content warning up ahead).

First off, Aegon is a lazy drunken slob, there is no question about that. Like Rhaenyra, he is also one to indulge in whatever vices deem his fancy on any given day, be it drowning in excess in cups of wine, cheating on his wife with whomever will have him (or not, as we sadly saw in Episode 8), and fathering bastards with little regard for the kind of image that produces.

This is clearly a major source of grief for Alicent, especially when Aegon takes servants against their will, resulting in Alicent having to pick up the pieces and put out the fires he leaves in his wake. (please note how fast the moon tea was delivered in that scene following what happened to Dyana the serving girl- this was clearly not the first time something like this has happened).

Aegon does what he wants with no regard for others, yet Alicent, even though she will scold her son for this indecent and shameful behavior, chooses to cover up for him, which unironically leads to Aegon continuing to do these things.

ALICENT, YOU ARE ONLY ENABLING YOUR SON, YOU ARE NOT DOING HIM ANY FAVORS BY COVERING UP FOR HIS BAD BEHAVIOR.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I'll continue:

Aegon does not care for optics or the family image. He is much like his older sister in this way. (and if I'm being honest, as someone who's also watched the entirety of Bojack Horseman more than once, I actually would partly compare Aegon's life to that of Bojack...maybe I should write a post for that).

But he is not under the intense scrutiny Rhaenyra is constantly under for her choices, again pointing to the sexism of this society.

From the same vein, however, I'd also argue the reason Aegon is the way he is because of the way he was raised. Pro Blacks will be quick to point the blame to Alicent, and yes I can agree on that, given how her first instinct is to slap sense into Aegon when he steps out of line, but she is not the only player here. Viserys was basically an absentee parent regarding his children with Alicent (granted, I could cut him some slack due to his declining illness, but the man still could've put a little more effort here), not taking any kind of active role in raising his children. Honestly though, Viserys taking passive over active stances is his status quo, both in his parenting and his ruling, so nothing really new there.

And then there is Otto...actually I don't quite know what is Otto's relationship to his grandchildren, particularly to Aegon, but I think it may be safe to assume there isn't much warmth there. Otto after all sees Aegon has something of a pawn, someone to (presumptuously) look highly and favorably on House Hightower should he ascend the throne when Viserys passes.

It's pretty telling how Aegon breaks down in tears when he laments to his mother how no matter what he does it will never be enough for either of his parents. It's even more telling when he asks Alicent on the day of his coronation if she loves him.

Makes one wonder if Alicent ever told him that once in his life.

Despite his tragic and loveless life, it doesn't excuse the fact that Aegon is a toxic person; If Aegon was to become king, it likely would only intensify his toxic behavior. Being king, after all, he wouldn't have to answer to anyone regarding his actions.

But this is not to say Rhaenyra would be much better at ruling. Now one could argue she'd be better on grounds that she actually wants to be Queen since she was named heir. As burdensome as the title of heir is, she seemed to find the idea of ruling as Queen of the Iron Throne appealing on some level, given how she told Rhaenys in Episode 2 that she planned to establish a new order as Queen (prior to Rhaenys doing her best to give Rhaenyra the hard truth that she may end up being disinherited should Viserys remarry and finally produce a son with his wife).

To put it bluntly, Rhaenyra strikes me as something of a girlboss, to put into modern terms, and if she were to rule as Queen, she would likely rule as...well a girlboss.

Additionally, Rhaenyra was never really given the tools to properly prepare to rule as a monarch, to which I would pin the blame on Viserys for that. Since he was the one to name an heir, the onus to prepare said heir to rule should have been on him, but we didn't really see that.

Rhaenyra also didn't really prepare herself either. She had to have known her status as heir did hang in the balance somewhat because of her gender, surely she should've known on some level she would need to fight to show the people she had the makings of a decent ruler. And yes, it sucks that the reason she would need to do that is because she is a woman, but it's still something she should've thought to prepare for.

Instead, Rhaenyra spent the remainder of Viserys' rule on Dragonstone, hiding away from most of the court and unable to form alliances, and then expecting the Lords to swear fealty to her fully once her father passed and she became Queen, not really expecting said lords to take the Greens side and expect Aegon to be king instead.

Now I could argue that Rhaenyra probably was prepared to fight when she proposed that she and Daemon marry, when she told Daemon she needed him by his side to prepare to fight the Greens for her birthright.

And this was something, I think, Daemon took to mean it would be a physical fight, a war, when he started gathering eggs from the Dragonmount for the warming chambers and mentally calculating the number of dragons the Blacks had compared to the Greens in Episode 10, when they really both should've tried to play the game from a political angle.

As much as the Daemyra ship makes me giddy, Daemon may not have been the best match for Rhaenyra from an optics point. He's unhinged, unpredictable, and craves violence above all else. His first instinct is to fight and cause harm.

It really doesn't help that basically the first public thing Daemon did when he and Rhaenyra returned to King's Landing was decapitate a man in Court when he shouted the one thing everyone else was thinking, and basically not being held accountable afterwards (not even a slap on the wrist).

In conclusion, the Blacks and Greens divide is a nuanced combination of personal choices and societal expectations. The Dance of Dragons is a tragedy that was the result from all these choices made by the characters in the story (or not making decisions on Viserys' part), choices that would eventually impact the Targaryen dynasty down the line and ultimately it's decline and eventual downfall.

The discourse is really not about who you think would make a better ruler, or who even deserves to rule...it's about how the choices made impacts the determined the course of the future, and how people are more often than not the products of their surroundings and society at large.

So, which side am I truly?

Honestly, I would rather not choose at all:

To quote a certain brooding witcher (I know wrong franchise) whom I would protect with my whole life:

Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all -the Last Wish

This is not to say I think Rhaenyra or Aegon are evil, lesser or otherwise, both are products of their circumstances, and are also products by the choices they made as well as by the choices of others.

On principle, however, Rhaenyra should be the next ruler of the Iron Throne. Not because she is a woman, but solely because she was named heir by her father the king. Say what you will about Viserys, but he never changed the line succession, he was clear that Rhaenyra is his heir, to question that the line should change in favor in Aegon is...well sexist. Let's not forget Dorne's custom in terms of inheritance is that said inheritance is passed to the firstborn of the family, regardless of gender. (though she was not featured in the GoT show for some reason, Arianne Martell was firstborn, which made her heir to Sunspear), so there's no excuse there.

Anyway this what I have to say about the discorse.

This took a little longer then I anticipated, so apologies, but I really felt like I needed to show my thought process, so thanks for sticking with me. Also this is just my opinion on the whole thing, it's not law or anything like that, so feel free to disagree with me or not. I would love to hear other people's take on this.

Have a nice day!

#hotd #daemon targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #viserys targaryen #jaehaerys targaryen #aegon ii targaryen #aemond targaryen #jacerys velaryon #team green #team black #rhaenys targaryen #laenor velaryon #laena velaryon

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goodqueenaly · 4 months

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What do you think of the Arya x Elmar Frey betrothal? Is it a bad arrangement for Arya? Did Cat get screwed over?

On the one hand, Catelyn's deal with Walder Frey was not particularly advantageous for the Starks overall. In return for gaining the Stark-Tully forces access to the crossing - an act of fealty Walder already owed, at least as a matter of feudal theory, to Hoster Tully as his liege - Cateyn firmly ensconced the Freys as major potential power plays, if not potentially the single most powerful faction for the Stark dynasty going forward. With a betrothal to the heir of House Stark as well as his only nuptially available sister, and the promise of two fosterages for additional Frey grandsons, House Frey was set to enjoy - again, at least on paper - a very close familial bond with House Stark, placing the Freys ideally to heavily influence, if not outright control, the Stark font of favor; compare the Freys in such a scenario to any overrepresented single courtly faction, like the Lannisters or subsequently Tyrells in the Baratheon court. It was not just that Elmar was the youngest son of a House with dozens upon dozens of legitimate, dynastic heirs, but that Arya's betrothal added another advantage to a deal which far more favored the Freys than it did the Starks. Access to the crossing certainly helped the Stark cause in that moment, but the exchange - again, on paper, at least - bound the Starks to the Freys almost to the exclusion of their established northern vassals, their other Riverlands allies, and any non-affiliated factions elsewhere in Westeros who might have aided the Stark cause.

On the other hand, the betrothing of Arya to Elmar is probably the least objectionable aspect of the negotiated deal, given that no one in Robb's camp at that moment could verify whether Arya was even alive and that Arya was still pretty young even by Westerosi standards for a betrothal, much less a future marriage. Catelyn and Robb both recognized, glumly, that Sansa's forced letter revealed nothing of Arya's fate after the purge of the Stark household, meaning that Walder had no power to actually enforce an Elmar-Arya union or guarantee it would ever happen. Too, even if Arya had been in a position to be handed back over to the Starks, Arya was still only nine, and the negotiations very clearly agreed that the marriage would only take place when Arya and Elmar were "of age". While it's certainly possible Walder would have demanded Arya was of age as soon as she was physically mature enough to bear children - a disgusting standard unfortunately all too common in Westeros - Catelyn and the Starks might have at bare minimum expected a few years where Arya would remain merely betrothed, and not wed - and while broken betrothals between aristocratic parties should not be taken uniformly lightly in Westeros, the much more immediate favors which the deal gained the Freys otherwise may have softened the politico-dynastic blow if Robb had later said "actually, I'm going to betroth my sister to someone else".

#asoiaf meta #agot #arya stark #elmar frey #marriage making #catelyn stark #walder frey

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ofeverykinnetre · 5 months

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So uhhh my headcanons on feminine clothing in the “main four” Westerosi regions in my mind, ie the four regions that are right next to each other with the majority of influence in the Seven Kingdoms and the most similar cultures. The Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, and Reach. In my head they all wear various forms of clothing from roughly the late middle ages, with specific styles for each region

The Westerlands are a pretty basic Tudor shape. They’re all about ostentatious displays of wealth in every possible way, rich fabrics, rich jewels, time consuming constructions, etc. The flaunting of wealth extends even to things like wider sleeves that use up more fabric. In general, the idea is not just to show off, but also to sort of stand out against the landscape. With lots of flatlands, Westerland women prefer deeper, richer colors and textures. Plus it means not very much floral or nature motifs in fashion.

The Riverlands are similar to the Westerlands in silhouette as they are right next to each other, but are much more subdued when it comes to extravagant jewels. They’re a more down to earth culture, so narrower sleeves and modest necklines, more gloves and hats as you get further north. That being said, as they are practical people impracticality is their version of wealth flaunting - ie, clothing that is time consuming to make, costs a lot of fabric and material, and/or is difficult to wear and move in. Ruffs, even small ones, are a staple amongst all nobility. For their highest born ladies, especially on special occasions they’ll break out the French farthingale. And of course, the whackiest of shapes for headgear.

I envision that as you get further south in Westeros the clothing becomes less structured. The Reach is the epitome of the romanticized medieval period, where they believe in true knights and chivalry. Their clothes are all designed with a romantic aim in mind. The silhouette allows for a flattering structure no matter your body type, and the skirts get to flow freely around you. The Reach style is the epitome of fashion in Westeros, and it’s influences are being seen all over - even Cersei Lannister as queen occasionally veers away from her staunch loyalty to her homeland’s styles for the sake of staying fashionable and attractive. The Reach is a massive chunk of Westeros, so the border parts of the reach do bear similarities with styles from other regions. Go north and you’ll see some Westerlands decor elements on Reach silhouettes, go towards the Stormlands and the fabrics get thicker and more durable, more similar to houppelandes.

The Stormlands have been wearing the same styles for years and years, as they have less care for frivolities like fashion (so they say - they still very much like to dress wealthy). That’s only recently started to change, what with a Baratheon on the throne bringing an eye to their region for more than just their port trade. Less dress structure in the south, and a cage skirt like a farthingale is incredibly impractical in stormy weather. Instead, it’s a lot of layers of very heavy fabrics. Richer women show off with more and more expensive damasks and velvets, along with more fabric. Using more fabric than is necessary is the ultimate showing of wealth, and skirts being so long and heavy that the noblewomen have to actually carry them shows how little they have to work for that wealth. I think amongst younger people, Reach styles are starting to have an influence as they are right beside the Stormlands. Burgundian gowns have become all the rage, especially as you can add fur linings to it (both useful and showy in the windy Stormlands). In general more defined and higher waists are becoming much more commonly seen, especially once Renly married Margaery and his supporters in the Stormlands start to emulate her.

#a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #asoiaf hair and clothing #asoiaf headcanons

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dragondream-ing · 4 months

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Because GOT made a big deal of Dany & Jon’s relation, this fandom will clutch pearls over a magical family that practices consensual incest (based on a culture that practiced it for 1000s of years, and all of Westeros practices some degree of incest that’s abhorrent to us in the real world) before they’ll condemn a 20+ year old taking a 12 year old as his “paramour.” FYI, you losers, even in Westeros 12 is considered too young by the VAST MAJORITY of people. Remember when Ned got queasy over Robert impregnating a girl during the rebellion because he didn’t want to think about her age?? Yeah, normal Westerosi do not condone it.

This bs makes me SICK. Learn how to read. Develop some shame. Find some morals. “It’s a medieval setting” isn’t an excuse when the characters themselves, by and large, believe it’s wrong. You only lie and say it’s “normal” for Westeros because you want cover to spread vile beliefs, because the characters you like are the ANTAGONISTS doing ANTAGONIST SHIT like BEING SEX PESTS and ABUSING TWELVE YEAR OLDS. And don’t come at me with “Daemon deflowered maidens.” I KNOW. And if he deflowered a TWELVE YEAR OLD, the pro-green sources would’ve written it in the f-ing SKY because they know people would side-eye him for it. I swear to…

🤦🏻‍♀️

And just so you know, Jon is absolutely going to consensually hook up with his hot aunt, who happens to be the same age as him and not an older predatory loser like Aegon II. And they’re both going to enjoy it immensely. You can cry about it 🤷🏻‍♀️

#anti team green #anti alicent stans #i repeat: hotd was a mistake #team black because i know how to read #this is my last post on the topic I swear #I’m just still really f-ing heated over the so-called fans defending this bs lol #please someone give me a stress ball #Targaryens hooking up with Targaryens is healthier than whatever bs their haters cook up #that’s my final verdict

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childotkw · 1 year

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You have so many aus I'm starting to get a bit confused. Can you explain the different aus? Maybe just the basics of them?

Sure!

ruination

Canon divergence AU | lucemond

Lucerys survives the fall and washes ashore at a small islet. He is there for days and when hunger overwhelms him, he eats the only thing available to him - the remains from Arrax. That is the catalyst, and soon Cannibal comes for him, claiming Lucerys as his rider because they’ve both feasted on dragon flesh and therefore are the same. Lucerys returns to Dragonstone to the immense joy of his family, but he’s different, darker, closer to madness then he’s ever been before. His bond with Cannibal slowly turns him into someone more wild, more dangerous and bloodthirsty.

The war commences, only Lucerys takes to the battlefield this time with his wild-dragon. He is feared and respected in equal measure; and his growing obsession with getting revenge on Aemond for Arrax twists into something he struggles to name. On Aemond’s side of things, finding out his nephew still lives, that he’s clawed his way back from The Stranger and is gunning for him, is both a relief and the spark that brings his own desires roaring forth.

the salt in our blood

Blacks win AU | lucemond, side-Rhaena/Lucerys

Lucerys survives the fall, is picked up by some helpful fishermen, and is whisked back to Dragonstone. Instead of claiming another dragon, he fully embraces his Velaryon side and joins his grandsire on the sea. Through Corlys’ close tutelage, Lucerys becomes a renowned and respected sailor, and earns the moniker of ‘Sea Dragon’. Jace is killed during the Dance, the first major casualty on either side, and the death of his favourite nephew is what prompts Aegon to surrender and bend the knee to Rhaenyra, on the condition that his family is spared. Joff dies to a sickness as well, leaving Lucerys as Rhaenyra’s oldest living child, and the only one from her first marriage. Bastard or not, he is named heir to the Iron Throne, but he pushes that it’s only until Aegon III comes of age. To recover from the spiral he’s slipping into, Corlys takes Lucerys out onto the sea to have some adventures and give him a chance to heal. While out there, Lucerys is claimed by Grey Ghost, and they return to King’s Landing after a year or two. Lucerys marries Rhaena, and they become platonic best friends. They’re not in love, but they do their duty and have an heir on the way.

Lucerys is confronted with his complicated feelings for Aemond, and the two of them are caught in a push-and-pull game, where neither are sure what, exactly, they’re doing but they are still helplessly drawn together. Rhaena knows all and subtly encourages Lucerys to take what he clearly wants; and he later repays the favour when she looks for her own lover. It ends up being a strange four person agreement, with Lucerys and Rhaena married and occasionally and strategically planning to produce heirs, while still being with their chosen partners. It’s a quiet scandal that no one really talks about, but they’re all happy so no one dares question it.

new dawn

Reincarnation / modern AU | lucemond

Lucerys dies from Vhagar’s attack and wakes up reborn in the Blackfyre Rebellions with all his memories intact. He’s born to a poor couple, and though he’s distraught over what became of his first family, he learns to accept his lot in life. Eventually, he finds out that Aemond has been reincarnated as well, but he’s so angry at his uncle that he runs from him. This is the cycle they fall into for centuries. They die, are reborn further along the timeline, Aemond finds Lucerys to ask for forgiveness, Lucerys rejects him and runs away, and then eventually they die. Rinse and repeat.

When they reach modern times, Lucerys finally acknowledges that he’s been bitter enough and that he should learn to forgive. He’s the one to track Aemond down this time, finding that his uncle is at a dig-site of an ancient Westerosi city. There, they slowly begin to bond and forgive each other, only to stumble across some petrified dragon eggs. The two of them accidentally revive the eggs, and have to go on the run to protect the baby dragons from the people that want to kill / use them for their own purposes. Along the way, the two of them realise their complex feelings for each other.

dichotomy of loyalty

Modern / Mafia AU | lucemond

The Targaryens are a feared Family in the underworld. They’re violent, fiery, and rule with an iron fist. Laenor, Rhaenyra’s husband, is not cut out for the lifestyle and wants to leave. He doesn’t want his children, because they are his despite the lack of blood, to grow up in this world - so when the chance comes, he takes the only child he can successfully save, Luke, and runs. They escape to Essos, where their Families have little presence, and live peacefully for many years. Luke grows up and goes to medical school, volunteering at a clinic to get more experience while he studies.

One night he comes across an injured Aemond and offers to fix him up, unaware of their relation. Aemond figures out Luke’s identity and begins coming around more and more, until he finally gets permission from Aegon to collect their long-lost nephew. They ransack his house, beat and take Laenor, and drag Luke back to his mother, stepfather, siblings, cousins and uncles and aunt. He has to learn to navigate a bloody, vicious world and try and escape a family he has no memories of but who are all determined to keep him this time.

#anonymous #HOTD #ruination au #the salt in our blood au #new dawn au #dichotomy of loyalty au #lucerys velaryon #aemond targaryen #lucemond

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horizon-verizon · 4 months

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I just want Alicent’s stans to stay consistent. If you insist we have to punish Rhaenyra for having illegitimate children, then I don’t want them to ever be mad about Alicent child bride subplot. According to Westerosi law, she was legally considered an adult and allowed to get married. Besides, you don’t even have to be an adult to get married there, as Alicent married Helaena off at fourteen. Westerori law does not recognize marital rape either so no more crying about it, too. Stay consistent. The law is the law.

You're right, except that there's no hard law about when children can get married. Or either gender. It's more a hard-custom&tradition-lead thing than a law-lead thing.

16 is the age of majority for boys to inherit total/self-willed leadership & decision-making ability for their house and household--no regrets. But this doesn't mean that they weren't married before then or that the age of majority thing was for marriage. There was no limit to how young a person could get married, but there were customary limits for consummation that were even more fluid for Westerosi or consummation occurred by the parents/authorities' will. Since girls are already not preferred leaders and do not become their house's leaders at the same rate as boys, what determined their adulthood was the assumed safety age of their giving birth. "Adulthood" is not as solid for them as for boys generally; only when the girl is made the heir or the leader does this 16-business apply and she may have regents.

So like lords deciding when to support a bastard even when legitimate claimaints or a father are leaving behind his son who's been living as a ward for another house for his daughter (Theon's father Balon choosing Asha instead of him), Viserys AND Corlys choosing to accept Rhaenyra's children despite them not being Laenor's bio kids shows how much medieval politics was more determined and shaped by the lords' and ladies' decisions than laws.

The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power.

Plus, Orys Baratheon, Benedict Justman (who used to be Benedict "Rivers"), Corlys choosing to have his bastard children instead of his legitimate Targ grandaughters or Vaemond as his heirs (there is a precedent for children related but out-of-house to become her is and eventually drop their last names but Corlys willfully didn't choose this route), etc.

Plus (SOURCE):

Ultimately in meaning you're correct, anon, in pointing out how less-hard the rules about much things were in Westeros and how people treated rules about these more like guidelines or at least potential-to- manipulation deterrents. I want to point out the depth of it: so much was left up to & finalized by the decisions AND abilities of the lords AND the monarch. Regardless of who;s child Rhaenyra's births, Viserys & Corlys had need for heirs, Laenor was gay, and in the original canon, Rhaenyra was also a child bride in that she married Laenor when she was 17. So where's the sympathy?

#asoiaf asks to me #alicent stans #green stans #hotd characterization #alicent's characterization #hotd fandom #fandom critical #westerosi age of majority #fandom misogyny #book vs tv comparisons #hotd

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georgescitadel · 1 year

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Interviewer: The Battle of the Trident is a big personal confrontation but it's also a big socio-political confrontation when the Targaryen line seemed to be decaying…

George: Well, one of the factors here is, of course, that 300 years ago in Aegon's conquest the Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms with dragons, but then, during the later civil war called the Dance of the Dragons, the majority of those dragons were killed and the few that survived that war died a relatively short time later or left the known lands of Westeros… So by that point the Targaryens were firmly established as the kings and had the power of tradition and legitimacy behind them. Generations had come up of age with the idea of the Targaryens as kings and that the rules didn't apply to them… That was also part of it, the Targaryens were interlopers from another culture and they had some unique factors that didn't necessarily fit into the mainstream of the other westerosi lords such as their traditional incest which was part of keeping the bloodlines pure so that they could better control the dragons… By the time Robert’s Rebellion comes around, the Targaryens have not had dragons for a long time, and, I guess, Robert and some of the other lords are starting to say “You know, we don’t really have to be afraid of these guys anymore, they can no longer just fly overhead and burn down our castles or entire cities.” and it's beginning to dawn into it that maybe the Targaryens are just people like other people and not an outside alien force with strange scaly superpowers… Of course, then Dany, well, you know (laughs).

- George R.R. Martin, 92NY Plus

#Rhaegar Targaryen #Robert Baratheon #Daenerys Targaryen #House Targaryen #George R.R. Martin #ValyrianScrolls #ASOIAF

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redrikki · 3 months

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A Song of Ice & Fire Masterpost

The Return - Robb sends Theon home to Pyke. If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. (Asha Greyjoy, Balon Greyjoy) Warning: Major Character Death

The Headsman - When the order came, Ned sent two men to seize and bind Theon Greyjoy and another to prepare the block. The gods would know Balon Greyjoy for a kinslayer, but it would be Ned Stark swinging the sword so what did that make him? (Ned Stark, Catelyn Stark, Theon Greyjoy) Warning: Major Character Death

Hey, Brother - “My sons will be your new brothers,” Lord Stark promised Theon, but it was a bit more complicated than that. (Theon Greyjoy, Robb Stark, Jon Snow)

Words Are Wind - Fills of the 3 Sentence FIcathon: Asha thinks Theon comes back wrong; Jeyne will never forget her name; Catelyn on Ned's unfortunate habit of child acquisition (Asha Greyjoy, Jeyne Poole, Catelyn Stark)

Every Captain a King - Young Theon Greyjoy is made a hostage of Dragonstone. When Davos Seaworth finds him crying behind the water casks, he can't resist playing the father. (Davos Seaworth, Theon Greyjoy)

Skinchangers: A Definitive History - Selected experts from the book Skinchangers: A Definitive History by Maester Germ, being the definitive work on the nature of the art and its role in the history of Westeros from the Dawn Age through the Age of Exploration. (OCs and worldbuilding)

Somewhere in the Dark - The night after witnessing his first execution, a nightmare drives Robb from his bed. Somewhere in the dark, he stumbles across Theon. (Robb Stark, Theon Greyjoy)

Empty Promises, Empty Threats - “Far be it from me to question to wisdom of your lady mother," Theon said, "but maybe sending the man who killed my brother to treat with my father is not the best idea.” Robb sends a different envoy to the Iron Islands. He and Theon live with the consequences. (Robb Stark, Theon Greyjoy)

Grin and Bear It - Theon attends the tourney at Lannisport following his father's war. King Robert rubs his hair for luck as he heads to the lists. Theon hopes he dies. He hopes they all do. (Theon Greyjoy, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark)

Strange Children in Our Bed - It had been seven long months since Catelyn's husband had been home and in her bed. Theon Greyjoy was the only thing spoiling their reunion. (Catelyn Stark/Ned Stark, Theon Greyjoy)

Second Verse - Theon Greyjoy leaps from Winterfell's walls and ends up in his past. Can he save the Starks from themselves? More importantly, does he even want to? (Theon Greyjoy, Stark family, ensemble)

Little Bit Louder, Little Bit Worse - Part 2 of Second Verse series. In a world where the War of the Five Kings goes very differently, Asha Greyjoy sails north to retrieve her brother. (Asha Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Robb Stark, ensemble)

A Meta of Ice and Fire - Collection of meta on a Song of Ice and Fire.

Chapter 1) Why Ned would have executed Theon Chapter 2) If canon Theon didn't bully Jon, why is it so popular in fic? Chapter 3) Westerosi and Medieval European Hostages: A Comparison Chapter 4) Comparing Robb's book & show love interests

#my fic #fic masterpost #fic masterlist #a song of ice and fire #theon greyjoy #robb stark #ned stark #catelyn stark #asha greyjoy

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dyannawynnedayne · 7 months

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Which poll do you want to do next?

Hello all!

Now that our Who Has The Most Gender? poll is complete, it's time to vote on which poll you would like to see next! Fair warning, there may be a significant delay between when this poll closes and when the chosen poll begins, but I will keep you all posted!

Descriptions of each poll below:

ASOIAF Thunderdome: Two people enter, one person leaves!! Vote on who you think would win in a fight.

Favorite Westerosi Location: Choose your favorite place in Westeros. Anything from ‘the North’ to 'the Fingers’ to even High Heart, big or small

Favorite Dragon: Which overgrown lizard do you love the most?

Favorite Consort: Pick your favorite consorts of any of the rulers of Westeros! This does not have to be Queen-Consort specifically. The various favorites of Aegon IV can count, as can Daemon Targaryen. If their lover sat the iron throne, they can have a say. (this will exclude, to be great chagrin, Daario Naharis, as Dany has never actually sat the Iron Throne. I will accept arguments against this ruling if this one wins)

Favorite Character of Legend: Favorite character from the Age of Heroes!

Favorite House Words: What it says on the tin!

Favorite Member of the Free Folk: Vote for your favorite character who lives Beyond the Wall, historical or modern

Favorite Minor House: Vote for your favorite house, with the exception of the major houses of westeros

Favorite Kingsguard: Vote for your favorite jackass in a can

Magic User Slapfight: Vote for your favorite character, historical or modern, who are confirmed or suspected in-universe to be practicioners of the higher arts.

Favorite Chapter: What it says on the tin! A BIG poll. Vote for your favorite chapter from the books, including prologues and epilogues.

Favorite POV Character: What it says on the tin. Will include prologue/epilogue POVs.

#text #poll picking #valyrianscrolls

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atopvisenyashill · 1 month

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Going through your asks, what happens if Littlefinger wins the duel, Brandon slips in the mud or a bird randomly craps in his eyes?

Catelyn is not going to marry him but I am wondering what the fallout would be?

H U H.

Okay so kind of returning to The Themes Here, I'm thinking specifically of this comment from George about feudal structures:

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy. And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

I think Catelyn is an excellent example of a woman who knows her place BUT is able to navigate within her role incredibly well so she retains access to power and privilege in a way that most women can't in Westeros (and also just, OODLES of good luck, from being acting Lady of Riverrun to hitting the Westerosi jackpot of husbands and good hips) while Petyr is very much someone who doesn't know his place at that point in his life. Oh yes, Petyr is very aware of his place after this fight but that's largely because Brandon shows him what his place is through extreme violence. At this point in time, when he's just an idealistic teenager who sees himself as an equal to the Tullys and Starks despite being like, glorified merchant class? He has no idea the violence that awaits him for pulling this stunt but by the gods is he about to learn.

SO THE PETYR OF IT ALL - I don't think Hoster would straight up murder a teenage boy the way, say, the Lannisters push for Micah, Lady, Nymeria, and even Arya to be harmed but I do think that if he's not in terrible shape after the fight, Hoster has him lashed and put on a boat back to the Fingers post haste. Petyr goes home incredibly injured, sick from the sea and being unable to rest from his physical ordeals, maybe even some formal/informal exiling from the Riverlands or Westeros at large. Hoster is likely aware that having a teenager whipped and put on a boat is dangerous but the thing is the Northerners are on the way and Petyr just humiliated Brandon and the entirety of the North with this little romantic stunt of his; again, not saying Rickard or Brandon would demand Petyr's head, but I think Hoster's fondness for Lord Baelish would make him want this dealt with before the Northern faction shows up for the almost wedding to be like "hey what in the FUCK did your ward just do you shit ass??" Given that Petyr's general life philosophy is "piss me off once, get ready to die during my insane xanatos gambit 10-17 years down the line" I don't think this has a major effect on his personality besides pissing him off a bit more. He'll have to be smarter about building his wealth but no way he earns himself a permanent exile for something this stupid, and once the chaos of the war starts up, I'm sure the Iron Throne is willing to overlook some youthful follies.

THE BRANDON STARK OF IT ALL - This one is a bit more complicated.

Southron Ambitions is hashtag real and Brandon getting his ass handed to him looks so fucking bad for Rickard and also puts a huge dent in the idea of "everyone outside the crownlands intermarries so if Aerys overreaches we have each other's backs" because now Brandon looks like a wuss and Hoster looks like he can't control his vassals.

They can't just throw Catelyn at Ned yet because Hoster seems to be picky as fuck about the marriages of his kids and Ned is second born and functionally useless. Not good enough for Hoster's favorite child (yet).

Brandon himself probably feels humiliated by this whole thing and maybe even wants to put the blame for the loss on Cat or Hoster. I mean we are talking he loses because he like, trips in the mud and Petyr gets the drop on him. Humiliating, unlucky, bitch made behavior lmaooo that just doesn't look good for a man like Brandon.

The Northern faction is, I say again, literally on the way to Riverrun.

I think what happens here is that Brandon runs back to the approaching Northern faction licking his wounds and pride with a note from Hoster that essentially just says "maybe we should renegotiate a little bit" but before they can get to Riverrun, Lyanna disappears. Brandon is already a hothead so with his pride wounded, absolutely he marches straight up to the Red Keep and tells Rhaegar to come out and die and all of that goes more or less the same - maybe if Aerys had heard about Brandon losing the fight, there's some humiliation going on there in addition to the torture of the deaths.

AND FOR THE NEDCAT MARRIAGE OF IT ALL - I think Ned feels a lot more pressure to prove himself here. Which doesn't mean he makes any mistakes - Ned shows himself to have a good head for battle tactics even under pressure - but I do think it puts him politically in a weirder position but perhaps emotionally in a better one. For one thing, Ned escapes the Vale by sneaking through the Fingers where Petyr is from - that might be a problem here. From there, it ripples out when he joins for the Battle of the Bells; perhaps he's a bit more ferocious, takes a few bigger risks in battle in an attempt to make up for Brandon's failure and impress Hoster.

I think it's likely that the war still forces a Cat-Ned marriage but I think the way these two approach the marriage is going to be different than how it goes in canon. For one thing, I think Cat's reputation takes a hit - she'd come across perhaps as a bit ~unruly because her lil boyfriend defeated her fiance (who cares that she asked Petyr not to do it, who cares that she gave Brandon her favor, Petyr humiliated Brandon so now it's Cat's fault) and I also think Catelyn would feel. Idk, not duty bound to be loyal to Petyr after defeating Brandon, but certainly would be feeling something very complicated that Petyr pushed through her no's and then won. Then there's the conflict of not wanting to piss off her new husband. Meanwhile, Ned is probably thinking about how another man won her hand fair and square and how he's essentially stepping on someone else's toes. I think in this situation, Ned's feelings of not being "enough" get split between Brandon - who proves that he wasn't "enough" either - and Petyr, the feudal middle class upstart who proved he IS enough. I think it would be likely that Catelyn and Ned have a more tense relationship for much longer. Possibly Ned doesn't even name Bran after Brandon because he's worried it might seem a lil tacky.

BUT. I DO KIND OF THINK. THERE IS ANOTHER PATH HERE.

I think it's just as likely that to get around this whole awkward issue, Hoster decides that Ned should marry Lysa and that Jon Arryn should marry Cat. That changes everything radically. I don't think Ned would like Lysa's clinginess nor would Lysa appreciate the stern ways of the North. I do not think those two would ever have a happy marriage and I think Lysa still attempts to start something with Petyr. The problem there is that the affair would be conducted compeltely through letters because Ned is not sticking around KL the way Jon Arryn does nor imo would Ned just completely miss the fact that his wife is having an emotional affair with the man who beat his older brother's ass. If Ned finds out, I think it's going to swing him into a PTSD driven, flashback addled depression spiral and remind him way too much of Lyanna/Rhaegar. I'm not totally sure how he'd react to this; Lysa isn't physically having an affair but Ned knows damn well that emotions can turn into actions real quick.

Then we've got Catelyn-Jon Arryn. Now...the subject of children is kinda weird here. I think Lysa's issues with children are partially caused by the forced abortion + Jon's age. It's possible that Cat has an easier time conceiving BUT all this means is she has three or four children with disabilities instead of just one. I think we would see a Cat that has also sunk deeper into her own depression, blaming herself for the Brandon-Petyr debacle, thinking about how she could have married a man born in the same decade as her instead of one older than her father, etc. Maybe it's Catelyn that winds up having an affair with Petyr - though again, it would be harder to carry it out because if Jon is at the capital, I can't see Petyr being able to land Master of Coin or be put in charge of the gold cloaks. I think it becomes difficult for Petyr to gain any foothold at all in fact which means he has to be smarter once again - but we know Petyr is perfectly capable of that.

Keeping in mind all the dozens of ways this ripples through the plot, the biggest change here is that Petyr has to handle the Jon Arryn situation way differently with Cat married to him instead. I think there's a not unlikely chance that Petyr manuevers himself to off Jon Arryn sooner so Cat isn't wasting her fertile years on Jon but keeping them with Petyr because Cat no longer has a healthy, beautiful daughter for Petyr to get fixated on, if she manages to have a daughter at all. I think if he can throw suspicion onto someone else, no one will find it odd that he and Cat remarry, even if they do it in a really tacky way - it's just Been Known that he's holding a torch for her, Jon Arryn is old and ugly, Cat is sexy as fuck, and she's already had a true born heir by Jon Arryn, so really, who cares if she remarries someone beneath her. What that affects is a) when Ned comes South b) How Petyr handles Ned and c) whether Jon and Stannis find out about the incest or not.

Anyways point being if Petyr wins I think this is kind of a hell scenario for the Tully girls. Lysa will either still be miserable with Jon or be miserable with Ned. Catelyn has to carry around the fact that Petyr humiliated her betrothed and caused this huge scandal. Petyr is probably forced to get real creative much sooner if he wants to marry Catelyn.

Although now I'm thinking about Cat still rejecting Petyr for humiliating her, Jon Arryn still getting offed by Petyr, but then Ned comes South and now he's dealing with newly widowed and free Catelyn Tully Arryn and her sickly little kids. It's like a fucked up romance novel omg, give me a second chance romance where Ned and Cat fall in love while he's investigating what killed her husband!!!!!!!!!

#canon divergent au #i'm putting this in the tags bc i'm fascinated and curious about other people's opinions #valyrianscrolls #asks #riana one #catelyn stark #lysa tully #jon arryn #ned stark #i'm not tagging littlefucker until later i don't want his stans in my ask box asking why i call him littlefucker all the time

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theeholytrinity · 1 year

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The double standards against Rhaenyra and her children in this fandom never fail to astound me. Any argument in Rhaenyra’s defense is always met with the rebuttal that "we shouldn't be applying a modern lense" to Westeros society which is a reflection of the real-world Medieval Era, but the deflection is disingenuous when the people who make this same rebuttal never apply this logic to their own favorite characters. We're not allowed to point out the fact that the reason for the Greens usurping Rhaenyra is based on a misogynistic ideologies, we're not allowed to say that shaming Rhaenyra for having sex with her partners of choice and having children, even if they’re out of wedlock, with someone she actually likes, isn't a bad thing in spite of the stigma that's attached to those actions in Westerosi society, we're not allowed to say that the social norm of passing up a woman in the line of succession in favor of a man is wrong, even if that's the norm in Westeros society.

But oh, when it comes to Alicent? We must look at this from a modern point of view, to further victimize her. Alicent is a child bride (by our standards), Alicent faced marital rape (by our standards), and therefore her pain is justification for the pain she inflicts on Rhaenyra and why she should be allowed to usurp Rhaenyra’s throne for her rapist son. But, if we were to apply the same logic that green stans apply to Rhaenyra, the logic that we should not be applying a modern lense to these characters because "everyone is wrong and bad", then Alicent was in fact not a child bride nor did she face marital rape or anything else that simply wasn't normal for Westeros. Viserys started courting her when was 15, then six months afterward announced his plans to marry her. By then, she would have been 16 or nearing 16, which in Westerosi society is the age of majority/consent. The real world equivalent would the age of consent laws in the USA which states that the legal age of consent is 18. Therefore by Westerosi standards, Alicent was in fact not a child bride. Nor was she a victim of marital rape, the concept does not exist in Westeros. There hasn't been any feminist movements or feminist thought to even introduce the concept of marital rape, so how can she be a victim of something that Westeros doesn't even know exist? Viserys was simply claiming his rights as her husband, and no one in Westeros would call him a rapist for that. Furthermore, Alicent’s circumstances are not unique to her. Almost every Westerosi lady is married off at the age of 16 (sometimes younger) and often times to a man far older then her with the expectation of producing heirs. Just look at Lysa Tully.

So you see, if we applied the same logic to Alicent that is applied to Rhaenyra, then neither women is a victim of patriarchy and therefore their actions are not justified because everyone one is bad and you're not supposed to pick sides!!! But you see, you are supposed to apply a modern lense to this story. When you see Alicent married off at age 16 to a man old enough to her father, you're supposed to feel uneasy. When you see her popping out heirs left and right at such a young age you're supposed to feel uneasy. When you see Viserys claiming his rights, regardless of her own desires, you're supposed to feel uneasy. Even though all of those things are normalized in Westeros, you're not supposed to find those things acceptable, you're supposed to apply a modern lense to the situation and be rightfully disgusted! So why then can't this same logic be applied to Rhaenyra?

We are supposed to feel enraged by the misogyny Rhaenyra faces, we're supposed to feel enraged by how her children are spoken of, we're supposed to feel enraged when she's usurped simply for being a woman. She herself is not a feminist, the concept doesn't exist in Westeros, but her story in itself is a feminist one, about a woman defying patriarchal standards/status quo and fighting for what is hers by right against all odds. When she is called a bitch and a whore, when she is detested and slandered for being defiant and daring to fight for what is hers, you are not supposed to side with the people using misogynistic ideologies and language against her. You're supposed to apply a modern lense and understand that it's wrong for those characters to do so, even if it's normalized in Westeros. Because not everything that's normalized is morally good.

"Well Rhaenyra did bad things", Alicent isn't a saint either, but for some reason you all show her grace and understand that her actions and the reasoning behind those actions are nuanced, so again why can't the same logic be applied to Rhaenyra?

#'well then in thag vain incest is bad and we should hate the targs for it!!' everyone already knows incest is bad #the story at it's core isn't about incest and how wrong it is. it is merely a backdrop to the main story at hand which is about misogyny.#that is the story being told so pack up those arguments right now #a word #asoiaf #trins thoughts #house of the dragon #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #viserys targaryen #viserys i targaryen

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