#Exclusionist

[certified-moth]

the most common trait i see in aro/ace exclusionists is the fact that they treat aspec identities as neutral. like any other part of someones identity immediately wins out. if an aro person is sexually attracted to men, that attraction is the determining factor in if they are queer. theres just a total refusal to imagine that aromantic and asexual experiences are a major determining factor in the way we experience life

i think it just goes to show how little some people are willing to engage with a variety of aro and ace people and understand how they experience the world. lack of attraction is not neutral, our entire world is shaped around romantic and sexual attraction and relationships. i think a lot of them would genuinely be surprised at how similar gay and aspec experiences can be if they were willing to actually listen to us

[everyponie]

exclusionists are no better than the LGB without the T alliance. Yall are cousins. You go hand in hand.

[jennygeistvids]

Sooo, potentially risking a nuclear bomb by posting this here, but fuck it. I did a video about 2016-2020 era "Ace Discourse," how awful and toxic it got, and how modern day LGBTQ debates are often just repeats of the same tired arguments. Let's all learn about it so we can know never to do it again. 😬

[decolonize-the-everything]

Hey this might be a weird question but you seem to know a lot about the strategies TERFs use and what they're hiding, so I just wanted to ask and you don't have to answer.

Why do so many TERFs have this weird hostility towards bi and ace people? I don't think either of those identities have anything to do with being trans but I've seen so many TERFs who are also biphobic and/or aphobic. My gut instinct was that there was some large overlap between bi/ace people and trans people, but then I've found TERFs give shit to cis bis and aces so I'm not sure if it's that or some other reason. I'm not trans myself but I want to be able to recognize TERF rhetoric to be a better ally to trans people.

A couple reasons.

First one is that hating bis/aces is at the entrance of the TERF pipeline; they utilize this 'soft bigotry' to radicalize LGBTs and it usually looks like this:

To recruit queer ppl first they try to get us to stop considering aces as Oppressed. That's how it starts. They're aren't Doing anything so how can they be oppressed? They don't know what it's like to marginalized....how could they? They're just stealing the spotlight of Actually oppressed ppl

And once you accept that they turn to bisexuals. Who are only half gay, you know? And most of them date men anyway or end up marrying men so like? How the hell would they know what it's like to literally Live oppression 24/7? Do we we really want them to have a voice and speak for those of us that don't have an escape from our oppression?

This works because on the surface TERFS/Radfems appear to care about women and gender equality, which a lot of queer people obviously support. But they exploit those of us that don't know enough about feminism's intersectional (and very gay) history to identify them as bad actors.

From here the person they've targeted will either a- accept this and likewise will eventually also accept that trans oppression isnt real either (fulfilling the TERF's actual goal of recruitment) OR b- they'll realize they've been manipulated and try to deconstruct.

Secondly:

TERFs are white supremacist and their beliefs are founded white supremacist ideology and outdated scientific theories that Support white supremacist rhetoric.

It's called gender-essentialism which is a branch of bio-essentialism which is the belief that the biological body you have has inherent skills and abilities. Racists have used this to deny Black humanity just as TERFs use it to deny the existence of gender diversity.

But nobody is inherently weaker because of a uterus, nor are they bad drivers just because they have a uterus. All women are not good mothers just because they are women. Men are not all abusers just because they are men.

TERFs would have you swallow these beliefs; they're vital to maintaining the Core TERF Value that that trans people aren't Real and people with uteri are always helpless victims to be defended against evil men.

And as white supremacists their goal is to disrupt and destroy minority communities so that we are too divided to unify against legal attacks. TERFs do this from the inside out by putting bis/aces in a different category from the other queers while disguising their bigotry as feminist. They get us to voluntarily undermine and destroy our own movement this way by causing intercommunity "bi/ace discourse" that makes bis/aces out to be an enemy of "real" oppressed people (like transphobic lesbians for example)

Thirdly:

Lots of queer people are feminists which makes us easy targets and that's why they focus on the queer community. Additionally, the queer community has a history of being a threat to the white supremacist establishment so dividing us is vital to their goal of eventually wiping out anyone who isnt cis, straight, white, neurotypical, and able bodied

[lust-for-ultraviolence]

Transmedicalism is the idea that being transgender is primarily a medical issue related to the incongruence between an individual's assigned sex at birth and their gender identity, characterized by gender dysphori.Many transmedicalists believe individuals who identify as transgender without experiencing gender dysphoria or desiring to undergo a medical transition through methods such as hormone replacement therapy or sex reassignment surgery are not genuinely transgender.They may also exclude those who identify themselves as non-binary from the trans label.

Exclusionist is someone who attempts to gatekeep the LGBT+ community by claiming that certain groups aren't "really" LGBT+ based on their own definition.

Example, asexual people are not lgbt for being asexual, they must be either trans or homo/bi-romantic. A cis het ace is not welcomed into the community. They also usually believe pansexual is a transphobic version of bisexual.

These are shortened definitions.

If this poll causes too much trouble, I’ll delete it.

[0w0tsuki]

You wanna know what fucking sucks about the trans andro crowd? You know besides the fact that all it takes is a transfem breathing the wrong direction at them for them to call her a Terf. The fact that they have the SHEER GAUL to claim it is in the name of TransUnity.

You wanna know what trans unity was? It was a term created for us to rally around when this tide of genocidal legislation started rising. To gather around and show SUPPORT for one another. To mobilize and RESIST this wave of hatred.

And tbros saw this as a very convenient shield, an uno reverse card, something to accuse other people of being against when they themselves aren't performing it. If you call them out on their infighting and punching across they will use the very fact that your criticizing them of this to argue that actually? NO! YOUR infighting!

None of these tbros are going in counter protest to ACTUAL Terf rallies. They aren't spreading donation posts. They aren't talking about news about daily anti-trans laws being put forth and trying to resist them. No. They spend their whole time trying to Gotcha! Trans women.

You know what people interested in ACTUAL TransUnity don't do? We don't have our top blog actively promote a blog dedicated to block evading (while simultaneously blocking out all criticism) to grab full username screenshots of trans folks they want to witch hunt and put them next to hate anons from feds calling them shit like zipper tits in order to whip up their audience to either sent hate or to EXCLUDE THEM. Like actually patting themselves on the back that they got swaths of the community to denounce and exclude us. All while trying to claim it's not transmisoginistic because they're MAINLY targeting other transmen. You know. Those trans men who said "actually that's kinda fucked up. I'ma actually stand in solidarity with my sisters" who were immediately branded as traitors by them. DEFINITELY not an attempt to separate us from the few allies we have while simultaneously telling those in your community "THIS is what happens if you stand against us!"

They don't "joke" about their group chat of Transandrophobia truthers that have been called transmisoginsts so many times that they see calling themselves that as an inside joke signalling each other to swarms posts about transmisoginy.

They don't purposely form insular communities where the only transfems allowed are those who sign at the gate they agree to every single say and they have social clout within that circle for organizing it. They don't try to USE said clout to try and redefine the TERF for these people in a way that would give them the position to call transfems TERFs (which they themselves admit to being a former member of).

And they don't try to discredit and not read arguments from the other side by screenshoting their bios to see if there's anything that they can point out that in their opinion shouldn't be listened to in the first place from "oh she's a white uwu cat girl" to "oh she's a bi lesbian". For all of the hand wringing that the trans andro crowd goes on about how "everyone listens to trans women over trans men and we just get ignored" they CERTAINLY don't have ANY interest in actually listening to trans women. There are no attempts at appeals to our arguments. No "I can see why trans women feel this way and I want to acknowledge their oppression while still advocating for mine" just "oh so you just hate trans men". No attempts at actual UNDERSTANDING trans women who feel hurt by their actions.

Your telling me the crowd who so ADAMANTLY opposed the terms transmisoginy and tme/tma in the first place. Who viewed every post of transfems complaining about the intracommunity oppression they felt as a personal attack on them. Your telling me these people should be given the benefit of the doubt when they try to argue for their own term which is DEFINITELY not reactionary to transmisoginy.

Your going to tell me the crowd that has convinced themselves that they are in a subculture war against transfems have their hearts in the right place and are trying to bring the community together when they are actively working to exclude transfems and their allies from the queer community?

Yall should find FUCKING APPALLING these people who've only ever acted like exclusionary bullies about their politics take a term that was supposed to be a rallying cry for trans people and turn it into the "so much for the tolerant left" but for the queer community, to demand all of the patience and consideration in the world while giving none. I don't even have to argue against their theory. Their actions speak louder than words.

[scretladyspider]

you aren't ace. and you don't need to "go" anywhere. you don't need a community for wanting to have sex. you are an average, typical person. congrats.

don’t hate to tell you this: you don’t get to decide the validity of anyone’s sexual orientation or experiences but your own. bye!

[asynca]

an exclusionist clowned on one of my posts and reminded me what miserable shitty people they can be

[d-parade]

i’ll say this every single time i get the chance to:

there should be a distinction between transsex(uals) and transgenders due to the fundamental existence of sex dysphoria that separates these two

“innate vs extrinsic” should not be classified together and treated the same

thank you

[foxfairy06]

TW: mentions of molestation, beating, abuse, grooming, etc.

[l0gic1]

The Inclusivity Facade

Like the name suggests, ‘inclusionists’ often perceive themselves as the inclusive side. They see themselves as martyrs—morally righteous individuals guided by a one-track goal: to promote “inclusivity” and “compassion” in all areas of life, particularly in LGBTQ+ discourse. Admirable, right?

However, despite what it might seem like on the surface, the core principles of inclusionist rhetoric are not based on actualized inclusion. Instead, they are based around dogma, control, blind acceptance, exclusion (surprise!), and sometimes even abuse. Inclusionists typically spread their value of “inclusivity” by blithely accepting any identities, no matter how contradictory, illogical, or unscientific they may seem. They will claim they believe in inclusivity, yet they are notably exclusionary towards those of different beliefs. They will claim they believe in compassion and understanding, yet they will send death threats or threats of violence to transmedicalists, exclusionists, and others that don't conform to their ideology, tell them to harm or kill themselves, verbally abuse them (cyberbullying), enable their eating disorders, claim false and derogatory things about them, dox them, engage in online harassment campaigns, attempt to silence dissenting opinions through mass-reporting, etc.

As such, the vast majority of inclusionists (it is unfortunately not a small but vocal minority, as one might hope) are as averse to basic human decency as a vampire is to sunlight. The truth is that inclusionists, for the most part, are not really trying to spread “inclusion”. Instead, they use the deceptive veil of “inclusion” as a way to make them seem better than they really are; if you present yourself as someone who stands for such an agreeable ideology (inclusion), people are more likely to perceive you as a virtuous person who stands for virtuous things.

That said, their actions often reveal their true intentions. In reality, inclusionists are quick to label anyone who disagrees with them as intolerant, bigoted, or even evil. They have no interest in understanding different perspectives or engaging in meaningful dialogue. Instead, they resort to unethical, damaging, and even borderline abusive behavior patterns that make a genuinely positive shift in society and online discourse virtually impossible. It becomes readily apparent that their supposed commitment to inclusion is nothing more than a facade to boost their own egos and maintain a false sense of moral superiority.

What inclusionists fail to realize is that inclusion is about creating a space where people feel respected and valued, regardless of their opinions and intrinsic qualities. This doesn't mean one should welcome people who are bigoted or hold harmful views, but rather that creating an environment where differing perspectives can be respectfully challenged and debated is essential to intellectual growth and fostering a culture of critical thinking. Inclusionists should understand that true inclusion involves embracing diversity and allowing for open dialogue, even with those who hold opposing views. It is through respectful engagement and the exchange of ideas that we can foster empathy and understanding and ultimately work towards positive societal change. By excluding individuals solely based on their opinions, we risk perpetuating echo chambers and hindering progress in our collective pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment.

[certified-moth]

Do you think people think "woman" is a neutral identify if they only think her lesbianism makes her queer and not her womannesss?

Like, uh, yeah, dumb ass, queer identities are only based in queerness. If you are not attracted to the same gender or trans, your identities are not queer. They do not impact your role in the LGBT community. A straight man who is cis but does not feel sexual desire is not queer. A cis straight kinky man isn't queer either. There's no identity identity you can give a cisgender, straight person or cisgender aroace person that would make them LGBT.

i think youre misinterpreting what i said. i dont think smth that doesnt contribute to someones queerness is neutral. i wasnt implying any part of anyones identity is neutral, i was noting that the treatment of aro and ace identities as neutral is a common belief in exclusionists. by that i mean that they are ignored as a factor impacting the lives of an individual. they are treated as having no meaningful impact on the persons sexuality, and that the only impact comes from the attraction present.

youre trying to define an example of queerness that i just dont agree with. the idea that same sex attraction is necessary is just kinda an arbitrary rule you believe in. I would personally say that the main connecting factor of the LGBT community is the way our identities have shaped the way we experience the world in comparison to cishet people.

i do actually think a heteroromantic asexual cis guy is LGBT if thats how he chooses to define his identity. Like i briefly mentioned in my post, our world is shaped around relationships. there are legal benefits to relationships. they are treated as a given expectation. to not experience sexual attraction greatly changes the way you experience relationships, as well as the way society treats you.

your entire argument just proves the point of my post. you view aromanticity and asexuality as inherently neutral, providing no experiences that could connect to queer experiences. You treat them as if they are just basically straight. but all the aro and/or ace people i have personally interacted with have far more in common experience-wise with queer experiences than they do with straight ones

(also i never brought up kink, i dont believe kink is inherently queer. im not sure but it kinda feels like you are conflating a sexual orientation and a sexual preference)

[sothisistheweightofcreation]

on a related note, whats the point of ace/mspec/mogai/polyam exclusionism, politically? like whats the end goal? how will it materially benefit the queer people you're supportive of?

ive seen exclusionists say they don't bring their beliefs up when organising irl, because it would distract from the actual political work they're doing. and at that point I'm like, well. it they're irrelevant or even counter-productive, why continue to hold these beliefs? what do they do for the people around you?

[virovirokun-has-adhd]

By applying a set of strict rules that cannot be broken to a label and inforcing them to the point of calling someone invalid if they don't comply, this is called label policing and is an exclusionist & bigotry behaviour.

[catsnakes]

Love seeing posts of people being like “those evil exclusionists who are against radical identities such as ‘bi lesbian’ are just conformist who are deepthroating cishet boot” Like you’re so smart, homophobic cishets would hate it if lesbians slept with men, people who hate lesbians definitely don’t want lesbians to fuck men. That would be abhorrent to them

[everyponie]

I think its very strange and weird that people will put so much anger and effort into hating bisexual lesbians and lesboys but will be completely silent on the genocide in Palestine. Why are people attacking innocent queer people when they could be putting this effort and anger into advocating for change? Redirect your anger to the right places. There are much bigger issues in the world right now. Innocent people are being slaughtered. Stop focusing on useless queer discourse and actually do something useful.