#ace yelena belova discourse

[lightros]

so now that gwenpool is canonically aro-spec and ace-spec are people going to recognize marvel characters other than yelena as being aspec? please?

[archivomeow]

here are some harmful aro stereotypes 💚🤍🩶🖤

there are probably so many more stereotypes, but those are the ones that i see more often! also i already posted same post about bisexuality, so check it out —> here.

aros are heartless — most people think that, because they assume aromantics do not love, they love. they can love their family, their friends, their pet or even themselves (this one is specifically for my afamilial & aplatonic folks). there is so much more complexity to love than romantic love and anyone who puts romantic love above all else is lame. like im sorry, but romantic love isn’t somehow better from self-love or love to your friends or family.

aro and ace are the same — this is also about asexuality, but aro ≠ ace. i see some people use the term asexual to describe both the aro & ace experience and to me it makes no sense since they’re completely different things. aro & ace can co-exist and one person can be on both spectrums, but that doesn’t mean all people are the same, not all aros are ace, not all aces are aro. so what is aro & ace? both are a spectrum. if you are aromantic you do not feel romantic attraction OR feel it under certain circumstances only (ex. when you know someone well, when someone likes you you like them back or until someone likes you back you like them). if you’re asexual that means you do not feel sexual attraction OR only feel it under certain circumstances.

aros can’t date — aros can in fact date, some people on the arospec experience attraction (rarely or under certain circumstances) so it makes sense they can date. there are also aros that do not experience romantic attraction, some date even though they do not experience the same feeling. they can like the person, care for them deeply and affectionately, but it is simply not romantic love, but they can chose to date the person. not all aros are loveless or romance repulsed.

i can ship xyz, aros can date — this is targeted tbh, i keep seeing people bring this up in Yelena Belova discourse about her aromanticism, while it is true aros can date, some chose not to, some are simply not interested in it and if a character in canon is showing no interest in romance or is repulsed by it, they don’t need to be fixed, they don’t need to be put in a relationship, they can just exist in peace. i especially dislike allos shipping aro/ace characters because they just see them as allo at that point, like im sorry, but they don’t give a shit about aros if they can’t listen to them explaining why you shouldn’t ship a specific aro character.

aros aren’t valid — bs. just bs. they are valid, whether you’re a man, a woman, a gender outside of the binary, whether you’re asexual as well or not, whether you want to date or not, you are valid as long as the definition applies to you!!! honestly here’s how i can explain being aro: if you are straight you are only attracted to opposite gender, so you don’t like same-sex, so just like you don’t like same-sex, aro’s don’t like same-sex & opposite gender.

[romanoffsbish]

I will NOT be posting the nonsense left in my inbox tagging/calling others out. To take this a step further I’m actually not posting any hate ever again. I don’t need to defend myself (or others) to miserable strangers on this app.

I do however want to respond to the topic at hand because by default you are calling me ace-phobic as well and that’s a falsehood.

If you have a problem with how we write a fictional character (that isn’t actually canon as anything because MCU and Marvel Comics are not tied together by a blood vessel) then you can easily leave our blogs behind. You’re not shackled to any fic writers page. Yelena Belova is comically known as an enemy of Natasha, not her sister. Alexei was her husband. Natasha once ate Peter Parker. Thanos tore Tony in half.

The point I’m making is comic /=/ movie canon.

——

To also let you know, there’s huge talk that Yelena & Bucky are romantically involved in their newest project. People also saw the chemistry between Flo/Hailee and shipped Yelena with Kate before the Ace discourse had started (and continued to b/c it is their right).

There’s nothing but love for those who fall under the Ace umbrella here on my blog, and I say it that way because it is a spectrum, not a one size fits all identity. Start by understanding that ace doesn’t mean celibate. For you, and others it might, but for many it doesn’t. So the no smut does not even add to your argument. I’m aware that Yelena being hinted as ace might have excited you, given you a sense of visibility you’ve never seen in the mainstream (and you all do deserve such types of representation) but turning a Tumblr fandom toxic because they don’t see her the same isn’t fair. Especially because there’s no “proof” of her identity, “Probably more likely to identify as asexual,” is not a canon statement. If you’re here because a single Black Widow writer made an assumption based on a solo project they were involved in then you’re also not going to hit with anything credible because these writers do not talk to the heads when they make comments. They also don’t dictate a character’s future arc.

For further discourse I will defer you to this reddit link written by an individual who seems to identify somewhere within the spectrum.

I myself have written Yelena in all facets. I have written romantic, 1 smut, and I’m in the process of putting together a requested platonic one. It is not a malicious way to erase her potential aro/ace identity. It’s just to see her how I do.

Fanfic has always been about taking characters and running with your desires. Natasha has been turned into a vampire, witch, werewolf, lawyer, CEO, princess, stripper, Lesbian/Bi and the list goes on because interpretations vary wildly. Nothing we write is canon to the world, it is only to the writer / and interested readers.

[purpleyin]

"chemfrost-domestic" or "aro ace yelena" for the WIP list?

aro ace yelena - I've had this on my list of moodboards to do since I saw Black Widow and Hawkeye in quick succession and then came across the discourse about Yelena Belova's sexuality when looking up stuff for the fandom. I know that the MCU version of Yelena hasn't had confirmation that's she's ace (and probably also aro) like the comics character but it sucks when ace rep is ignored, so I decided to headcanon her MCU version as both ace and aro too and I wanted to make a little something for that. It's very, very close to being done now, but I have a few fixes to do for it where Canva didn't quite do borders correctly.

chemfrost-domestic - I started this for the simplysnowbarry Spring event using the line “So... is this like a thing now?” With how chemfrost is as a pairing, usually it's all about the heists and other criminal jobs, one upmanship and banter. With this I was trying to do something a little unexpected and wanted to write about them reluctantly being soft with each other, though there's still banter and an element of competition. I got stuck on some technical issues, because I was fixated on getting CSI type stuff correct, but I probably just need to bang this out and not look back since it was only meant to be something short and semi-sweet.

WIP titles tag game

[novoaa1writes]

topic: yelena belova

hey, kids

just received a comment on one of my works informing me that yelena belova is canonically asexual in the comics. (and many people say that she’s also hinted at being aromantic as well, though i don’t think that’s been confirmed, from what i understand.) [source] [source] [source]

with what little i knew about her character, i’d been writing her as someone who fit beneath the rather broad umbrella-term of ‘queer.’ (i never really had any specific headcanons for her with regards to sexuality and gender.)

i started delving into all the discourse surrounding this, and turns out, there’s been a fair amount. the two main posts i came across that seemed to embody both sides of the discussion fairly well are this one and this one. and, given that both ops have identified themselves to be asexual, aromantic, or both, i’m definitely finding myself at a bit of a loss here.

(other posts to consider: one, two, three, four, five, and potentially more to be added as i continue to look into this.)

obviously, i am neither asexual nor aromantic, and because of that, i know very well that i am in no position to cast my vote to one side or another. (not that it’s ever quite so cut-and-dry when it comes to these sorts of things, or that i will be doing anything in the way of ‘casting a vote’ to begin with, but—i digress.) 

all i know is that there’s a fair deal of mounting contention over this, and that a solid 90% of the time, contention arises because people feel wronged, or hurt, or otherwise disrespected.

i really don’t ever want to publish content that makes people feel like that, ever.

more specifically, i don’t ever want to use the platform i’ve been given as a means of ace/aro erasure, even unintentionally.

so, starting now, i’m putting a halt to all works i’d had planned or otherwise imagined for yelena which depict her in a non-platonic interpersonal dynamic. i’m also considering radically revising all already-published works i’ve created which fit that description, if not deleting them entirely.

still—and please know that this is purely from a place of curiosity and a genuine desire to learn more about these issues—it’d be really helpful to hear from any aro/ace individuals in the fandom regarding this. direct message me, drop an ask in my inbox (anonymous or otherwise), reply to this post... i’d just really like to know more about how ace/aro individuals are receiving this, and any other part of the whole debate on which you want to comment, or shed some light. 

(note: although i want nothing more than to allow people a place to discuss this freely, i’m going to ask that you keep things civil and be respectful of others. if you can’t manage that, you will be blocked.)

thanks in advance, you guys <3

— —

also! if i’ve hyperlinked your content in this post and you’d like for me to remove it—just drop a reply, or an ask, or message me directly to let me know. i’ll remove it asap at your request

[aroconfusion]

okay but all i’m saying is if a character said they swing both ways, everyone would say that’s canonically bi but when a character said they are nothing (in the context of sexualities), being aroace is only a head canon 🤔

[werehamburglar]

it's a toss-up, i think, about how i feel about aro/ace (or even just aspec in general) characters presented in media. on the one hand, it's great to have some representation. on the other, such visibility is like unlocking the door so that all the weirdo aphobes can get in and start up the outright aphobia and more "subtle" erasure. i wish the latter would stop.

[olderthannetfic]

I don’t follow marvel at all but through tumblr i heard about yelena belova apparently being canonically aroace? As an aroace person this literally my first time *ever* seeing mainstream representation (I know there are a couple of ace characters and also some books here and there but I don’t know of any mainstream ace people that are also aro).

But scrolling through the tag and reading about her in hopes for content is honestly very frustrating because of all the aggressive discourse between shippers (mostly lesbians I guess?) and aro/ace people - especially since we’re all so starved of representation and can get emotionally invested?

I wondered if you’d be able to give some rational advice since I know you’re very pro shipping and people doing whatever they want with media/characters, which I agree with, but it’s still sad to see so much arguing about this … Should I just block the tag to not see convos/shipping stuff I don’t want to see? I do want to see content though and don’t know how to separate that within the tags :/

--

There may not be a good way to separate it in the tags. I think you'll need to find a few specific blogs to follow and just block the shit out of anyone who annoys you in the tags.

I remember reading an interview with Antonio Fargas years ago. He played Huggy Bear on Starsky & Hutch. He was talking about diversity and perceptions of scarcity, and he commented that some people were blaming women or nonblack minorities for some perceived reduction in opportunity, but it was really just that The Token Minority used to be a black guy, and now it was being shared among various types of actor. Those other people weren't the competition, not really.

The problem here is that lesbians are desperate for representation. They have vastly, vastly more than aroace people, but they still have paltry scraps overall. So if we're playing misery poker, you win, but it's kind of pointless to talk about who has it worse when everyone has it unacceptably bad. And that's why the fighting is so bad in this kind of context.

Anyway, block, block, block. It's the only way.

[treesramblings]

about tree

28, she/her, pan/ace, american

I am slow to respond to asks, please forgive me! message me on discord (treesramblings#4137) for quick responses!

ao3

my comfort pairing: derek hale/stiles stilinski (teen wolf)

my comfort character: tony stark (marvel)

I do not engage in…

fandom discourse

character hate/bashing

pairing hate/bashing

unsolicited political discussion

proud supporter of “don’t like, don’t read”

current high-focus fandoms

marvel

shadow and bone (netflix)

ffxiv

MARVEL

faq

up to date on all movies (02/18)

tv shows: avengers assemble, earth’s mightiest heroes, iron man: armored adventures

slowly reading comics (current favorites: black widow 2019, black widow 2020, secret empire)

big fan of genderbending (tony = toni, steve = stevie, bucky = jamie)

favorite tropes: hydracap, werewolves, vampires, ABO, avengers as hydra, morally dubious avengers

favorite characters

agatha harkness (mcu variant)

baron helmut zemo (mcu variant)

carol danvers

clint barton

darcy lewis

edwin jarvis

enchantress

erik killmonger (mcu variant)

frigga

gilgamesh (mcu variant)

harley keener

heimdall (mcu variant)

helen cho

james buchanan “bucky” barnes

james “rhodey” rhodes

janet van dyne

kamala khan

kate bishop

loki laufeyson

margaret “peggy” carter

maria rambeau

mj watson (mcu variant)

monica rambeau

m’baku (mcu variant)

natalia alianovna romanova

peter parker

phil coulson

pietro maximoff

sam wilson

sersi (mcu variant)

sharon carter

sif

steve rogers

sylvie laufeydottir

thena (mcu variant)

thor odinson

tony stark

t’challa

valkyrie

wanda maximoff (mcu variant, wandavision era only)

yelena belova (mcu variant)

favorite relationships

clint barton & kate bishop

clint barton/natasha romanov

clint barton/tony stark

gilgamesh/thena

james “bucky” barnes & sam wilson

james “bucky” barnes/darcy lewis

james “bucky” barnes/helmut zemo

james “bucky” barnes/natasha romanov

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers/darcy lewis

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers/tony stark

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers/tony stark/natasha romanov

james “bucky” barnes/tony stark/natasha romanov

james “rhodey” rhodes/carol danvers

loki/darcy lewis

loki/sylvie laufeydottir

loki/tony stark

natasha romanov & yelena belova

natasha romanov/janet van dyne

peter parker & harley keener

sersi/ikarus

steve rogers & peter parker

steve rogers & tony stark & peter parker

steve rogers/darcy lewis

steve rogers/natasha romanov

steve rogers/tony stark

steve rogers/tony stark/natasha romanov

thor/darcy lewis

thor/janet van dyne

thor/loki

thor/loki/tony stark

thor/tony stark

thor/tony stark/janet van dyne

tony stark & carol danvers

tony stark & darcy lewis

tony stark & harley keener

tony stark & peter parker

tony stark & peter parker & harley keener

tony stark & sharon carter

tony stark/janet van dyne

tony stark/natasha romanov

t’challa/m’baku

wanda maximoff/agatha harkness

wanda maximoff/pietro maximoff

yelena belova & kate bishop

[peachyteabuck]

Lukis omg can we still talk about the whole yelena belova discourse thing I just like hearing your thoughts about it all

so @caroldantops posted this thread that i think def both changed and cemented my views about one of the key questions of the discourse, which is "is yelena actually aro and/or ace?" and makes a lot of posts that rely on her being canonically either/both kinda...sinister? for lack of better words. i'm certainly not saying she can't/shouldn't have that aspect of her sexuality canonized in the future, but it's still laying in a grey zone in the comic universe; and certainly has no part of the cinematic one (meaning her sexuality is never discussed).

to claim that fanfic writers are erasing a sexuality that isn't tied to a character, and to call them aphobes regardless of their politics outside of that fanfic, is insidious and ignores the nuances involved in this. as i said before, that no one has seemed to find a good response to, is "is any fanfic where yelena has no romantic/sexual relationships good representation, regardless of the fic's content and the author's politics?" for example, if a fanfic writer who doesn't think asexual people are real writes a fluff-only fic where yelena and the reader are best friends having a movie night, is that aroace yelena representation? why? why not?

not even to mention, when i think about aseuxal liberation aroace yelena disourse doesn't cross my mind. do asexual and aromantic people deserve proper media representation? sure. but just as i think lesbian media representation is something that is a sustained action meant to comfort rather than liberate, asexual representation likely doesn't free asexual people from compulsory sexuality, medicalization, ostracization, social isolation, etc. it is good! it is certainly nice! i'm not debating that, but representation without liberation is tokenization.

this absolutely isn't saying that no one can headcannon yelena as ace/aro, or any character regardless of canon sexuality. this certainly doesn't mean anyone should be harassing anyone else because of their feelings about yelena belova (or anything else, but like, yelena belova is the most pertinent here).

in short - whether yelena is actually 100% for sure without a doubt aroace matters less to me than asexual liberation, and queer liberation writ large.

[novoaa1writes]

Re aroace Yelena (I'm aro, myself): I think what really gets me is I reckon a lot of the people going 'it's just fanfiction! I can write what I want!' would also (and in my opinion, rightfully) be angry if a canonically in comics gay character was routinely written as straight in fanfiction (even if this wasn't confirmed in the MCU version). It feels like there's a double standard, where people don't see ace and aro rep as 'real' or something.

And while I can't stop anyone from writing anything (and I'm not really trying to?) I don't think people should be aware of this, think through how they'd feel if it was a gay character, and really examine why they want to write one of our few aroace characters as not aroace.

(also, about whether she is aro: the source quote literally says 'she's asexual, not romantic' so she's gotta be aroace, or maybe Non-SAM ace. There isn't really an argument for her being alloace)

ye ye! this is definitely a super fair response... i think that so many people's arguments are based in a perceived separation between comics!yelena and mcu!yelena, along with an added emphasis on the more recent awareness that asexual/aromantic people may not feel sexual arousal, but some are still perfectly content to engage in sexual activity with a partner of their choice. (i don't personally subscribe to either of these viewpoints; they just constitute a recurring viewpoint i've been seeing all throughout the discourse surrounding this topic.)

additionally, i do very much see how this is a bit of an unprecedented circumstance here—particularly since it's concerning a character who is asexual (and arguably aromantic as well), which has been exceedingly rare (if not borderline obsolete) in most all popular forms of media

to draw a tentative parallel to a perhaps more well-known phenomenon:

the advent of the bisexual woman onto the scene of mainstream media as a character archetype

in many of the earlier depictions of the bisexual woman, they were most always rendered as being rather feminine, and preferring to date men over women.

to be very clear: i am not saying that is at all unreasonable!!! these people (—that is, bisexual women who come across as very feminine and typically prefer to date men rather than women—) exist, and are valid!

but in the very beginning, when depicting unambiguous female bisexuality in mainstream media was still a groundbreaking concept, the people writing them were NOT lgbtq+. consequently, they were NOT writing these characters in such a way so that they could illustrate that being a bisexual woman is valid in whatever form that takes for each individual person (—e.g. that it is valid to be a feminine bisexual woman who prefers men over women). rather, they were writing it that way because it was the only type of gay representation they could bear to distribute on such a mass scale, and additionally, because it would sufficiently appeal to the male gaze (thereby keeping viewers engaged, and simultaneously earning the titles of "diverse" and "accepting" for implementing gay representation when such a thing was still largely unheard of).

in other words: they used the farcical excuse of "bisexual representation" in order to film softcore girl-on-girl p*rn that appealed primarily to straight men, and actively alienated the wlw (and, by extension, the greater lgbtq+) community by doing so.

thus, the earlier depictions of bisexuals (male AND female) were incredibly problematic, homophobic, and ultimately more damaging than helpful

it's not quite the same, as there are somewhat differing reasons for the erasure in either case, but i'd argue that they're nonetheless similar to a certain degree

so i definitely can empathize in some capacity (—that is, as best as someone who is neither ace nor aro can possibly hope to—), and am currently leaning more towards the opinion that this facet of yelena's character, rare and often overlooked as it is, should be consistently portrayed as accurately and respectfully as possible.

thus, i plan to do everything i can to fulfill this from here on out, and i'm currently debating what to do with the yelena works i've already published—whether to radically revise them, or just delete them entirely.

thank you for your input, anon <3 i value it greatly

and if anyone else has anything to remark on any of this, feel free to share!