#anti hunters of Artemis

[wanderingmind867]

Jason wondered if there was a hunters of artemis equivalent for men. The answer: no, but there absolutely should be. The hunters of artemis only allowing women in completely gets under my skin, because it's exclusionary of so many people. So there really should be a male or all genders equivalent to the hunters of artemis. At least then we'd have somebody preaching equality here.

[mytragedyperson]

possibly unpopular Pjo Opinions

Also, if you disagree, that's fine. people are allowed to have differing opinions. But, if you decide to be dick about it in the comments, the comment will be deleted. we can disagree but there's no need to be rude about it. However, if you'd like to respectfully and civilly discuss the differences in opinion, I'd be happy to. I always enjoy hearing different opinions. However I will warn you, while I'm not strictly anti-percabeth, there are some anti-percabeth or negative towards percabeth opinions in this post. If you're one of the toxic percabeth stans who hates on anyone who dislikes or says anything negative about the ship, you have been warned, any toxic comments will be deleted. I won't be arguing with you because it would be pointless. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. civil and respectful discussions only

Is it bad that I don't like Bianca Di Angelo. Like, don't get me wrong, I don't hate her, I don't think she's terrible, she's 12, she's a child, but try as I might I just can't understand her choice. I get that she's 12 and left to take care of her brother but they have no one else at that point and the first chance she gets she agrees to leave him. She agrees before they even get to camp, before she's even made sure it's safe and I've said it before I don't think there's a world where Nico stays at Camp Halfblood. I don't think Bianca necessarily dies in every universe. There must be at least some where she actually listens when told not to touch anything or even where she, an untrained, inexperienced 12 year old isn't picked for this quest where they know one of them will die because it's been prophecised, but I do think Nico, at least in every universe where Bianca agrees to join the Hunters, always leaves camp after discovering he's a son of Hades, and then he's really not safe. they're each other's only family and she chooses to leave him. In 2 years he'll be the same age as her, and a year after that he's older. He'll live his entire life while she pops in and out when they can, maybe sees him if he's at camp halfblood at the time. and, to be fair to Bianca, I don't think the Hunters should offer this to 12 year old anyway. but, no, Bianca will either be dead, or 12 forever as he younger brother grows older, as he nearly dies trying to save his friends and help his family. Although I would love to see her and the Hunter's reaction when Nico shows up in the fifth book, same age as Bianca, with 3 gods and, if I'm remembering correctly, an army of skeletons, as she realises her younger is growing up. Honestly I could see them finding a way to send messages and Nico, despite knowing there's no place for him there, going to Camp Halfblood when he knows the hunters will be there so he can see his sister. see, i like the idea of alive Bianca that lives in my head, because i love the angsty idea of her seeing her brother get older and get married and make new friends and meet the half sister and her still being physically 12 but so much older mentally and wondering what could have been if she hadn't agreed to be a Hunter. But canon Bianca? i get that she's young but, maybe it's because I'm the youngest of a family with quite a few cousins that are very close but I can't imagine a world where my older brother or one of my older cousins agrees to just leave me somewhere without first making sure it's safe, even if they were 12. and the fact that they're each other's only family on Earth at that point? and then in book 4, instead of appearing directly ti Nico and telling him not to come to her, she uses Percy as a middle man? Nico is not Percy's responsibility. No, you agreed to join the Hunters, you agreed to go on this quest when you were untrained and inexperienced (because somehow there was no one more qualified or better suited after the other Hunter couldn't go).

Honestly, maybe my problem is more with the Hunters than Bianca herself now that I'm thinking about it. The way they act like they're better than everyone's else but get upset when they retaliate. The way they hate all men. There's just something about their attitude in the third books I hate. Maybe it's because it's from Percy's POV but, I don't know, they just rub me the wrong way. Maybe it's because they're supposed to be feminists but they're written by a man who thinks the extent of feminism is "we as women hate all men and think we're better than them" which, while is admittedly how some women are, is not supposed to be the point of feminism. I was taught feminism was equality between men and women, not one being better than the other, not hating on one while hating one the other, both men and women being equal. Is this where I realise that my problems actually boil down to problems with Rick Riordan writing women and girls? Zoe's dislike does make some sense and I do like her character but it feels like the other Hunters are, like, radical feminists who believe men and women should be separate?

Also while I'm here, might as well add, as someone who read the first five books but does plan to read the others, Percabeth means literally nothing to me. I don't hate them but I don't ship them either. They're fine as friends but as a couple? I'm sure there are much more interesting ships for both of them. The first five books is more or less them not being together but getting jealous of anyone of the opposite who talks to them, (though Percy's is also annoyance because, you know, Luke tried to kill him and Annabeth still has hope she can get through to him even though he's betrayed them. Percy's fatal flaw is loyalty, he doesn't take betrayal well, we saw how he reacted to Nico's perceived betrayal), and (Usually Annabeth but Percy sometimes) picking arguments. Ah, yes, the old married couple. Now, the moments where they actually bond outside of quests and camp halfblood? Not many of them. They have a couple of cute moments but, as a couple, I don't really care for it. I don't mind them as friends but, as more than that, not really. Annabeth chose Percy over Luke? oh great, and so the rest of camp Halfblood, the others who stay there all year? They mean nothing? If it was't for Percy, she would've just left them? Interesting. Percy gave up immortality for Annabeth? Not really, sure, she may have been part of it, but the main part was making sure children of all Greek gods had somewhere safe to go and would be claimed. also, why would a depressed, possibly suicidal teen want to be immortal? want to be with the gods who have just used him and his friends and half of whom hate him? Also, next to Annabeth Percy is always made out to be the dumb one but he's not really. Sure Annabeth is better at planning but Percy is better at improvising when things go wrong. See: him tricking Crusty. Also in that first book Annabeth also makes some not so smart choices. See: going to the Arch to sightsee in the middle of the quest. Percy is also the one who figures out The Lotus Hotel situation, not Annabeth. They have different types of intelligence but Percy is not dumb.

[justaneedle]

If Bianca di Angelo was alive one day she will leave Hunters of Artemis, fight me.

Like, I don't care why: she will get puppy 12-year-old love in boy/girl/monster/whoever/just quite Artemis without specific reason, because FUCK HER.

(I hate Artemis in myths. Just try to imagine how much more I hate Artemis in PJO).

Because you know what?

A little girl, who had one of the TWO reasons for joining them — the desire to find a caretaker, a new family, sooner or later realizes what an unhealthy and toxic environment she has fallen into.

Because hey, what it is — an adult figure who takes on deadly quest the rookie? Who voiced what she doesn't want and hesitate and scared?... Or the head of the cult of men-hating women who preys on prepubescent girls?

Give me di Angelo sibs being part of TA, please.

Because honestly? They were in a Catholic household. Maybe their faith wasn't deep, considering they were children, but, damn it, do you know who has even more reason to look critically at the pjo gods? Those demigods who originally belonged to a different faith.

And it seems like everyone expected Bianca to be their ideal.

First of all, the time and class in which she was born?

Hades, who literally humiliates Nico, saying that Bianca would be better than him (man, you don't know her at all, shut the fuck up with such statements)?

How obviously Bianca thinks herself obliged to take care of Nico, who is actually not much younger — and if we are going to explain this not from the point of view of another fuck up of Rick (!) — then this is due to her loss of memories: Bianca remembers only the last ± year?

Zoe's expectations, seeing her as the next leitnant, what literally killed Bianca?

There is absolutely no doubt to me that sooner or later Bianca would have snapped—

Oh, hi Luke, come in, we have the new candidate for the club ‘too much shit (burden) on our shoulders'.

[my-pjo-stuff]

Artemis is still creepy as fuck. The fact that she would be my patron godess if I lived in PJO disturbs me. The Hunters of Artemis are a borderline cult and genuinly not something you want to strive to be like.

I just felt the need to put that out here again.

[rosabell14]

The hunters of Artemis, Reyna, and Asexuality in Riordan's writing

I kinda started thinking about this since Reyna became a hunter. I could never articulate why I hated this Choice. I was asexual after all. Shouldn't I be happy about this rep? We Ace people barely get any after all. Then I realized that it's because I just didn't like the hunters as ace representation. And I didn't need to be grateful for mediocrity.

You want to know why the hunters of Artemis suck in general? And as Ace rep specifically? Because Riordan did not write them with that mindset.

Like people are so busy hailing this man as the king of representation in literature(blegh) that they forgot how heteronormative and white(sometimes racist) the original series was. Y'all really think this man was thinking about writing asexuals in the year 2007? Get real. What Riordan was doing was a white man trying to write feminism and failing (there's a reason most of his female characterization of female characters boils down to tough "not like other girls" characters who are dicks to the boys around them yet also to the girls around them if they're jealous)

Now onto the hunters.

The hunters when first presented in TTC are not a group of asexuals but rather religious celibates. Fantasy Pegan nuns if you may. The first problem arises when their ages are brought up.

"Then the archers came from the woods. They were girls, about a dozen of them. The youngest was maybe ten. The oldest, about fourteen..."

Remember, before ToA gave us Emmie and Jo, the hunters WERE all young girls. Now why in the world are they so young? Especially when in the actual myths, the hunters could come from any age whatsoever? Well the reason is a doozy.

"Are you surprised by my age?" she asked.

"Uh… a little."

"I could appear as a grown woman, or a blazing fire, or anything else I want, but this is what I prefer. This is the average age of my Hunters, and all young maidens for whom I am patron, before they go astray."

"Go astray?" I asked.

"Grow up. Become smitten with boys. Become silly, preoccupied, insecure. Forget themselves."

Hooo boy. What a way to phrase it. Going astray. Losing themselves. This kinda confirms that the reason why Artemis goes after young girls specifically is because she only wants girls who have yet to finish puberty. Girls have yet to discover their own sexuality. Now I'm not a representative of Asexuals everywhere, but I'm pretty sure most of us don't discover our sexuality at the age of ten. Let alone have the maturity to decide to become celibates about it. And let me reiterate: celibacy is not sexuality. Sure asexual people CAN choose to be celibates but it's not the same thing at all. In fact Zoe and Thalia are big cases for this. Both of them had liked men before(herakles and luke) but joined for their own reasons. Thalia to escape the prophecy and Zoe out of heartbreak. Hell, Bianca herself is mostly swayed by the idea of having no responsibility and a new family.

Now Rick does another thing that goes against the myths. The exclusion of make hunters. Artemis frequently hung around or taught male hunters who respected her. Daphnis, Scamandrius, freaking Hippolytus whom Artemis greatly cared about. Oh but we need to come up with bullshit reasons why Nico can't just join the hunt with his sisters so the hunters of Artemis are all: Ewww men. Also note how at no point does Riordan mention people who fall in love with women.

Now the next point is the oath itself. Artemis says this:

"What oath?" I said.

"To forswear romantic love forever," Artemis said. "To never grow up, never get married. To be a maiden eternally."

When I tell you that Emmy and Joe were retcons . Rick was freaking INSISTENT on the hunters being kids. Also note the three points: to never fall in love, to never get married, to stay a maiden.

I mean I think I don't need to explain why obsessing over the virginity of young girls is creepy. Does Riordan think girls older than fourteen can't keep it in their pants? And let me be adamant here Riordan only cares about the virginity Clause here. He mentions falling in love and marriage because he sees them inherently intertwined with sex.

Now onto the wording of the oath itself:

'I pledge myself to the goddess Artemis. I turn my back on the company of men, accept eternal maidenhood, and join the Hunt.'

I mean you might be able to interpret men here as mankind and therefore excluding women as well. But I have many reasons to believe that Riordan didn't even CONSIDER women as a possibility(someone inform this man that lesbians existed smh 😞). Also note that falling in love is not mentioned in the actual oath but maidenhood is.

Now onto the next big issue. Percy Jackson's Greek gods and its chapter on Artemis. It basically confirms all of my problems.

"IT’S NOT THAT ARTEMIS HATED ALL MEN, just most of them. From the moment she was born, she knew one critical fact: Guys are kinda gross."

No mention of girls. In this chapter Percy(Rick) brings up Artemis' disdain for dudes over and over again.

“Let me be a maiden forever, Father,” Artemis said, twirling her finger in Zeus’s beard. “I never want to get married.---- But you can grant me a bunch of followers: ocean nymphs, river nymphs, wood nymphs—what the heck, how about mortal girls, too? Any girls who want to join me can become my followers, as long as they remain maidens like me. They should probably make the decision when they’re about nine years old, before they get interested in boys, because after that, they’ll be all distracted and of no use to me.”

Yikes yikes yikes. Ladies and gentlemen the age has been lowered to 9. Freaking 9. Also I guess girls older than that don't need Artemis' protection then? (the real problem is that older/married girls should be out of Artemis's jurisdiction and under the protection of other gods like Hera, Hestia, and Ares. But Hestia is barely there. Hera is terrible and the Amazons also suck)

Now when I tell you that Artemis' big point was about virginity, I mean it. This actually has mythological evidence.

The myths actually DO mention what happens when female hunters fall in love. Rhodopis and Euthynicus were two hunters who offended Aphrodite by choosing a chaste life so she had Eros make them fall in love. However note that they weren't booted out of the hunters for falling in love, but rather after having sex in a cave. THAT was what Artemis took offense to.

Another myth is the story of Aura. A huntress who offended Artemis by comparing their breasts(Greek mythology am I right?). Saying that her breast were better than Artemis' because they were smaller and hey maybe that means that Artemis isn't actually a maiden. Artemis punishes her by making her lose her VIRGINITY. She goes to nemesis for revenge. Nemesis goes to Eros who makes Dionysus fall in love with Aura and when Aura refuses his advances he ties her up and... Yeah you can guess where I'm going with this.

But hey! Those myths aren't in the Greek gods book. You know which myth is? The myth of C(K)allisto. And this one angers me so much I want to chew on the drywall.

The way Riordan writes it. Zeus turns himself into Artemis, brings Kallisto's guards down with the disguise, gets close to her and then when Kallisto REJECTS Artemis' supposed advances, forces himself on her. I need to say this again. Kallisto does not fall in love, she isn't seduced, she does not break her oath. But we still need a reason for her to be yeeted out of the hunters so her lack of maidenhood it is

“You were my favorite,” Artemis said. “If you had come to me immediately, I could have helped you. I would have found you a rich, handsome husband and let you settle into a new life in the city of your choice. I would have allowed you to retire from the Hunt with honor. You could have gone in peace. Zeus’s assault was not your fault.”

Kallisto sobbed. “But I didn’t want to lose you! I wanted to stay!”

Artemis felt like her heart was breaking, but she couldn’t show it. She had rules about her followers. She couldn’t allow those rules to be broken, not even by her best friend. “Kallisto, your crime was keeping the secret from me. You dishonored me, and your sisters of the Hunt, by not being honest. You defiled our company of maidens when you were not a maiden yourself. That I cannot forgive.”

I want to slap this man so hard he flies to the opposite side of the universe. We are not here to blame victims of assault guys! Except we are! But with extra steps. If you get attacked, it's not your fault, but If you are too scared to admit the truth then you deserve to lose your only safe space and turn into a bear. Oh nooooo Kallisto DEFILED Artemis' company by being an icky non virgin. The moment you lose your virginity even if it's not your fault you get punished. But not because I'm gross but because YOU lied. How terrible! And he expects us to feel for ARTEMIS???

But rosabell! This is how things go in the myths. What was uncle Rick (bleghhhh) supposed to do? I don't know... Choose a different version of the story? There are versions were Zeus/Hera are the ones who transform Kallisto into a bear. There are versions where Kallisto actively CHOOSES to sleep with Artemis. Granted it's still assault because she's being lied to but at least then, she'd have a degree of autonomy in the events. At least Artemis could rightfully accuse her of breaking her oath. But noooo, Riordan doesn't know lesbians exist. He actively makes Zeus into a canonical Ra*ist. Why is he on the throne again?

(the fact that this book came out AFTER HoH y'all 😭)

Once again, Riordan sees maidenhood(virginity)/love/marriage as intertwined. This is NOT what being on the aroace spectrum means. You can fall in love but not have sex. You can have sex but not fall in love. You can have sex AND still be an asexual. You can be married and still be a "maiden". Riordan doesn't get to claim to be such a progressive ally for retconning the hunters in 2017, TEN years after he first introduced the hunters because he suddenly remembered that lesbians exist.

Or more like because he doesn't know what to do with his female characters. The hunters more than anything are Riordan's heroine dumping ground. If you don't want it put them in relationships, either kill them(Bianca whose main purpose is to die) or make them eternal virgins(the hunters, Rachel). The fact that some people genuinely think that Calypso should have joined the hunters astound me. Girl suffered for years because of the gods and you all think that the best thing outside of Leo for her(not that I like Caleo) is to become a servant to the gods? Because you can't perceive a female character doing anything else if she's not in a relationship. Like with Thalia, this at least made sense on a strategic level because she didn't want to reach sixteen. Oh but we also don't know what else to do with her so she needs to want to be a hunter after the war is over so we give her a half-assed argument with Luke and now she can be all: wah wah Zoe you were totally right about boys. And the cherry on the cake is that she doesn't even get to be in the final confrontation with Luke or say goodbye to him because of a freaking STATUE. And after pjo her personality becomes Zoe 2.0 and her and Jason get ONE measly meeting.

When I first spoke of not liking Renya joining the hunters this is what I mean. Riordan had so many options with Reyna. Why did she have to leave her esteemed position which she worked so hard for? Two boys rejected her? Why couldn't she go reconnect with her sister more then? She could have joined the Amazons. But nooo Riordan was so allergic to the fans asking him wether she could be Bi or a lesbian. For the stupidest reasons too? Oh Reyna being a lesbian would come off as stereotypical because she got rejected by two guys beforehand! My dude, do you think people don't say the same thing about us who are on the aroace spectrum? That we say we are aro/ace because we got rejected before? Come up with a better excuse next time.

My brother in Christ couldn't even allow Reyna to talk about her sexuality and whatnot. It couldn't even be fully about her. No. He had to turn Reyna into his own mouthpiece admonishing the EVILLLL fans who may have shipped Thalia and Renya. He literally had her say the word "shipping". How cringe can you get? And then he had the audacity to admonish the fans by saying: Why does a strong friendship always have to progress to romance?

It's a sentiment I agree with but coming from this man, it's extremely hypocritical? I don't know Richard maybe because YOU are obsessed with shipping? No character can escape your shipping hands unless they're eternal virgins or dead. You literally turned the Argo2 into Noah's ark2. So much attention focused on shipping that the seven barely felt like friends.

Why does Reyna need to join the hunters? She can choose to not relationship without having to become a servant to female Peter pan.

This is actually a really adequate metaphor when you consider that Emmie and Jo say that they have not met Artemis in YEARS and Apollo mentions that the two of them were lucky she let them LIVE. god can you imagine joining Artemis when you are 9? At an age when you have still not finished maturimg cognitively and therefore shouldn't be trusted on taking a freaking celibacy vow(were you even given the talk yet that age) and after 70 years you decide you want to leave? If you're lucky Artemis will part with you on good terms but SIKES every person you probably knew before joining is now dead. Where is THAT angsty Bianca fic?

Speaking of Bianca. How she was handled also angers me. In another post, I've already talked about how the hunters barely gave her adequate information before letting her join.

How Zoe was the main reason for her death. Zoe KNEW that at least 2 people might die in the quest she was given and yet she decided to bring the least experienced girl to the quest and couldn't even watch her properly.

But you know what else pisses me off? The fact that THEY should have been the one to tell Nico about his sister's death. I've always hated how Chiron made Percy the CHILD tell Nico the other CHILD about his sister dying. But more than anyone, it should have been the hunters' responsibility. Bianca was THEIR responsibility. She died in a quest to save Artemis. The least they could do was tell her remaining family of her fate. The Doylist reason of course is that we need to kickstart Nico and Percy's complicated relationship and have Percy discover that Nico is a son of Hades. But in universe, the fact that they immediately fuck off from the camp upon regrouping makes them come off as extremely selfish. We don't even know if Bianca was given a funeral by them or not. We see Artemis being upset about Zoe but we never see her react to the news of losing Bianca.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Punk Percy moments

Getting kicked out of 6 schools by age 12 because he refused to stop being a bully beater

Telling the gods to fix how they run their shit with his whole chest no hesitation as soon as he thought to and them listening due to a mix of fearing and respecting him

The leadup to it being his bully beating manifesting/escalating in him fighting against an entire pantheon as a system for four years straight and continuing to afterwards too

Gifting Nico a The Ramones shirt

Insulting his classmates in Som for being 'a bunch of rich white boys' and carrying on his anti-capitalist mentality from the start and the franchise as a whole,including refusing to ask Poseidon for or accept riches

Confirmed to be psychologically immune to selling out in one of the Tkc crossover short stories as a god tried to use their powers to brainwash him but they had so little in common with an emphasis on want for positions of authority/OP abilities Percy was able to defeat him

Participating in Rachel's charity events and protests during their time at Goode High

Instantly riding for Hazel harder than anyone and nurturing her as an older brother figure and pseudo-dad as he does Nico

Disliking Annabeth flirting with him as she uses white girl tactics so he found her attempts gross and completely flew over his head as he couldn't comprehend how all That could be expressing romantic attraction

'The sea does not like to be restrained'Translation:Percy is an anarchist

Going on a quest to prove himself as completely unlike cis men to an arcaic group of young abused by the patriarchy girls and succeeding because he IS completely unlike cis men(read:transfem gender fuckery)

Sympathizing with victims of the system fullforce and in general(instant forgiveness and understanding towards Silena for being groomed to the bad side/eagerly speeding to save Chris from the Labyrinth/gentle treatment towards Ethan even as they fought and worrying over him at time with Luke)

Unstoppable brutality when it comes to fighting

His sense of humor as a whole

His Rbf is implied to reflect his anti-societal mentality

Not caring about his image in favor of being his authentic self no matter what happens or how much he hates himself at the moment as he always does

Compared in a contrasting way to Luke,who's fash trash yet constantly talks down to by him for not being as radical as him despite Percy knowing a lot more about and doing a lot more to do what's good for the people than he does(which is to say:Nothing except self-justfied violence against them and lying about doing good things for them only to never followup on them,as irl white men in authority pretty much are always like)and for not having it as bad as him despite Luke growing up sheltered in a fantasy land where everybody worshipped him while Percy grew up hurt nonstop in the real world and also taking Percy's rightfully earned title of 'The Gods' Martyr' for himself even in death like the attention seeking manchild he was when the gods barely did anything to him compared to Percy and tons of other demigods

Instantly clocking the gods as bad in Tlt thanks to his own past experiences with authority figures

[solisaureus]

Everything I Hate About Rick Riordan's Interpretation of the Hunters of Artemis

I believe that Rick Riordan has good intentions and that he has done a lot to promote inclusivity in YA fantasy, both at a fictional representation level and at a level of authorial diversity. However, he has fumbled the ball numerous times in his writing, and my biggest complaint against him is his handling of the Hunters of Artemis. So I wrote an essay on everything I hate about it.

Part I: Mythological context

Artemis is the ancient Greek goddess of the hunt, nature, unwed maidens, animals, archery, childbirth, and other domains. She is known for keeping a company of nymphs and inhabiting the wilderness with them, giving rise to Riordan’s concept of the Hunters of Artemis.

Artemis is also famous for being a virgin goddess, vowing never to marry. The concepts of virginity and marriage in ancient times and the understanding we have of them today are quite different. Here is an excerpt describing Artemis (and Athena’s) status as virgin goddesses from Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves: Women in Classical Antiquity by Sarah Pomeroy:

“The Artemis of classical Greece probably evolved from the concept of a primitive mother goddess, and both she and her sister Athena were considered virgins because they had never submitted to a monogamous marriage. Rather, as befits mother goddesses, they had enjoyed many consorts. Their failure to marry, however, was misinterpreted as virginity by succeeding generations of men who connected loss of virginity only with conventional marriage. Either way, as mother goddess or as virgin, Artemis retains control over herself; her lack of permanent connection to a male figure in a monogamous relationship is the keystone of her independence.”

Note how this differs from modern Western concepts of marriage and virginity. Marriage, for a woman of antiquity, means a monogamous, submissive union with a man. A virgin, in the context of Artemis and her Hunters, is an unmarried, independent woman, not a woman who does not desire sex or romantic love. It is likely that Riordan, as a classics scholar, knows this.

Artemis was known to keep companions in the myths, both men and women. Orion is the most famous male companion of Artemis, and in some iterations of the myth he is a lover of Artemis. Another notable figure is the nymph Callisto, who was exiled from the Hunters after Zeus raped and impregnated her in Hesiod’s Astronomia. (According to Hyginus’s recounting of this story, Zeus seduced Callisto by disguising himself as Artemis, insinuating that Callisto and Artemis had been lovers). I assume this is where Riordan got the idea that becoming “smitten with boys” (The Titan’s Curse, p. 38) gets you kicked out of the Hunters.

Another known devotee to Artemis was Hippolytus. In the play Hippolytus by Euripides, the eponymous character (the son of Theseus with the Amazon Hippolyta), was enamored with the hunt and had no desire for marriage, worshipping Artemis as his patron. His disinterest in romance offended Aphrodite, and she cursed Theseus’s wife Phaedra to fall in love with Hippolytus. The rest of the play does not end well for either of them, but the important thing is that ancient Greek plays did acknowledge unmarried male devotees of Artemis. This, combined with the myth of Orion, confounds Riordan’s choice to interpret the Hunters as exclusively female.

Part II: Feminist separatism

So, given the existence of Orion and Hippolytus, where does the anti-men thing come from? One possible explanation is the story of Actaeon, who spied on Artemis while she was bathing, and was harshly punished for his indecency when Artemis transformed him into a deer and set his hunting dogs on him. But mythologically, the Hunters were not exclusive to women, and in a modern context, I think Riordan’s interpretation of them as such is inappropriate and irresponsible.

In the 1970s, there was a movement to form communities of exclusively lesbians who seek to escape patriarchal society by forming insular colonies, known as lesbian separatism. On a surface level, it might seem empowering — many lesbians and other women seek to escape the male gaze and heteronormative expectations, and making their own exclusive all-female social communities may seem like a utopian escape. But this movement was notoriously transphobic, with these lesbian separatist communities explicitly rejecting transgender women and relying on gender bioessentialism to determine who was “really” a woman or a lesbian. It was gatekeeping in its most radical form (Separatism by Andrew Matzner).

So for Riordan’s Hunters to model feminist separatism (except with celibate women instead of lesbians) is a similar TERF trap. It is never clarified in canon whether the female requirement for membership includes either closeted or out transgender women, or if the Hunters expel transgender men who come out after joining the Hunters. Given that the Hunters — a community of people who seek to reject conventional patriarchal society — would likely appeal to queer people of all ages, genders, and sexual identities, why is it exclusive to adolescent celibate girls?

Part III: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

In The Dark Prophecy, Riordan supplements the lore of his Hunters with a bombshell: female Hunters who fall in love with each other are expelled for breaking their oath of virginity. Emmie, who is Hemithea of ancient myth and had been a part of the Hunters for millennia, was excommunicated with her lover Jo, and they form a new life together in Indianapolis. This is described as a voluntary, heartwarming departure and a show of the two women’s commitment to each other.

The positive spin that Riordan puts on this story is shocking, considering the fact of the matter is that these characters were forced to choose between their family and their queer love. Losing one’s family, especially one that had been Emmie’s whole life for literal ages, as a result of coming out is a homophobic tragedy any way you look at it. How are we supposed to think positively of Artemis or the Hunters after seeing them cast out their own because of their lesbian relationship? Especially when LGBTQ homelessness as a result of this exact trauma is such a prominent problem?

Hell, in The Sun and the Star, Nico di Angelo expresses that his worst fear in coming out as gay was to be abandoned by his friends or ostracized by his community (p. 216, 219). Yet this is exactly what happened to Emmie and Jo when they came out in the Hunters. The fact that this outcome is acknowledged as terrifying and traumatic in The Sun and the Star makes it baffling that it’s framed as congenial and unavoidable in another Riordan book.

The fact that the Hunters are a militant force makes the expulsion of lesbians reminiscent of another notable LGBTQ rights issue: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT). This American legislation, which was in effect from 1994 to 2011, prohibited openly gay, bisexual, or lesbian individuals from serving in the armed forces. It was acceptable to be closeted while serving, but disclosing one’s identity as lesbian, gay, or bisexual resulted in being discharged. The repeal of DADT in 2011 was seen as a major victory for LGBTQ rights in America…which makes it concerning that Riordan would implement the same policy for his fictional militia in a book that was published in 2017. And then portray it as positive and empowering.

Riordan doubling down on the “no romance allowed” aspect of his iteration of the Hunters by excluding lesbians from membership is a bizarre commitment to his misconstrued translation of the ancient Greek concept of virginity. Remember that Artemis’s vow of virginity was a commitment to independence and a rejection of marital submission to a man in a patriarchal society, not a condemnation of romance and sexuality. By this definition, virgins include lesbians, and it is ridiculous to construe two women’s romantic commitment to each other as violating the oath of virginity. Riordan’s choice to vilify lesbians in the Hunters was his choice, not an appropriate application of mythology. Considering that Artemis has been used as a relatable cultural icon for modern lesbians, this seems especially insidious.

Part IV: Asexual misrepresentation

Asexuality is a spectrum of queer identities which describe those that experience little to no sexual attraction to other people of any gender. Aromanticism is a related spectrum of queer identities entailing little to no romantic attraction or interest in other people of any gender. There is a very broad range of asexual and aromantic experiences, including those that overlap with other queer experiences, including lesbianism. Asexuality is not the same thing celibacy and aromanticism is not the same thing as being single. Rick Riordan does not seem to grasp this, construing his anti-romance portrayal of the Hunters as a haven for aromantic and/or asexual girls such as Reyna Avila Ramírez-Arellano.

While a community like the Hunters, with its emphasis on rejecting patriarchal, heteronormative standards, would certainly appeal to many aromantic and/or asexual individuals (as well as most other queer people), there are several issues with conflating the lifestyle of Riordan’s Hunters with asexuality/aromanticism.

First, the Hunters in this setting are exclusively young girls, with the oldest being Thalia Grace, who is 15. Feeding into the stereotype that asexual/aromantic people are immature and childish is hardly positive representation. Second, requisite celibacy is not the same thing as natural asexuality. In fact, I find the whole enforced celibacy, anti-romance thing weirdly Catholic and repressive for a group of people devoted to a Pagan goddess of nature and unconventional independence.

I will iterate it again, this is a reductive, ill-fitting application of the ancient concept of virginity that is associated with Artemis. It is valid for modern asexuals and aromantics to admire and relate to the mythology of Artemis, but Riordan’s misapplication of this association does a disservice to asexuals, aromantics, and queer community as a whole. Riordan’s Hunters feed the harmful, incorrect stereotype that asexuals and aromantics look down on all forms of romantic/sexual love (including queer love) and see themselves as superior to the culture of love and sex. This is not positive aromantic/asexual representation.

Part V: Alternative interpretations

With all of this said, the Hunters serve an important narrative role in Riordan’s stories and a lot of potential as an alternative life path for demigods. Abolishing the Hunters would do the story and its setting a disservice; but I believe they should’ve been written very differently.

The Hunters should maintain their core purpose of an uprooted existence, rejecting conventional society to connect with nature. They should provide community for those who are not served by the heteronormative, cisnormative patriarchy. This would include people of all ages, genders, and romantic/sexual identities. There should be an emphasis on solidarity among marginalized sexual and gender identities instead of overt hostility and gatekeeping.

Members of the Hunters should be discharged only when they decide to rejoin mainstream society or settle down with a lifestyle that is incompatible with the aforementioned purpose of the Hunters. I believe this structure would be far more empowering and liberating than what Riordan has envisioned.

[hyperfocuscentre]

I have issues with the hunters of artemis in pjo being anti-men and girls only. I understand being wary of the boys, because some of those girls came from times that didn’t exactly.. have men treating women correctly. However, the blatant anti-men attitude frustrates me because it turns one of the few goddesses know for her feminism into a radical feminist which isn’t the only kind of feminism and definitely does not represent it as a whole. I hate that so many people hear feminism and think of the small group of radicalists, immediately assuming women who want equal rights hate men.

Artemis was a safe haven for women, she’s heavily associated with one of the only female heroes out there (Atalanta) and she definitely would empower women but that doesn’t immediately mean she hates men… she just doesn’t want to sleep with them or have them see her naked body because it goes against her vows of chastity. It’s that simple.

If I got anything wrong, feel free to correct me but please be nice about it lmao.

[low-key-lucy]

Mini Rant

Genuinely Why are people so anti Thaluke (Thalia & Luke), i simply don’t get it! did we read the same books???

It’s not even a question, they definitely both had feelings for each other, Literally read ‘The Diary of Luke Castellan’ or just read ‘The Titans Curse’. ITS THERE! It’s not even subtext, ITS TEXT!

Also… (this might get me a lot of hate, but) I really dislike the HC that Thalia is a lesbian, because most of the people who say that are people who view the Hunters of Artemis as a big club of lesbians, that’s like saying Catholic Nuns are lesbians, the Hunters are based on the priestesses of ancient Greece that dedicated their lives to certain goddesses, who stayed chaste. Rick literally confirmed that the hunters abstain from all romantic relationships no matter the gender, They are a sisterhood! Not to mention that most of the Hunters are LITERAL prepubescent girls!!!

It’s such a stupid, non-researched and tone deaf claim/view and it really annoys me whenever i see it.

If you’re going to claim i’m homophobic because of this i’m actually going to lose my shit, i’m literally gay.

[aroaceleovaldez]

hey! hope this isn't weird but i wanted to know why you think artemis wasn't up to standards even in the original pjo series. you reblogged from me and so i had front row to your tags on the post about zeus jaja i've not seen people talk a lot about her and it got me interested as i'm a classics student!

- @zoebelladona 🌙

HELLO OH BOY okay so I have half a rant already about Artemis in terms of Rick and general aphobic tropes in the series. see: that open letter on twitter. i still need to transfer that to tumblr. fun fact: Rick replied to that post but deleted his reply at some point. probably because two replies after he replied to my post and word-of-god confirmed Reyna to be ace-coded he left social media for a bit.

Fun times! Anyways.

The thing I dislike about Artemis as she's depicted in the series, besides her constantly appearing as a teenager and the aphobic tropes with that [see: open letter linked above] - which on some level is slightly more excusable than other examples given she's a goddess of young women, but given how he writes Athena, Hestia, and the Hunt instead leaves a bad taste in my mouth - and other similar aphobic tropes with her, is her whole weird anti-men thing (which is also, in itself, also an aphobic trope in this particular circumstance). I understand TTC was written in 2007 so that flavor of radical feminism that Artemis and the Hunt is clearly supposed to be was only just coming into major public awareness and the flaws in the ideology (and the inherent bigotry, particularly transphobia and racism that often comes with it) weren't as well recognized at the time. But in hindsight it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth for obvious reasons and is one of the things from the first series that severely aged poorly in my opinion, and I greatly dislike that in every subsequent retcon of the Hunt for other reasons Rick more or less retains that aspect.

Secondly... it doesn't make sense from a mythological standpoint? Because there are multiple examples of men being Hunters in Artemis' retinue. Even ignoring Orion, no matter how you go about shaking that stick (which for the record I really dislike how Rick retconned him in the series/wrote him in HoO), Hippolytus is a very notable example. Literally his big whole original shtick was he joined the Hunt because he didn't like romance and Aphrodite got so pissed about him not needing her (romance) that she killed him. And even when Aphrodite was trying to ruin his life he held on to his virtues and vow to Artemis (refusing advances even when his life was on the line). He is otherwise totally chill and devoted to Artemis. Some versions of his myth has Artemis have him resurrected after he dies (by Asclepius, which is why Asclepius is punished for reviving the dead). This also obviously doesn't address the major glaring logical flaw in Artemis hating all men which is... Apollo. Especially within the series he seems to be an exception for no reason, despite Artemis also very overtly having a "brothers are not an exception to the no-men rule." And from a modern queer standpoint, it obviously begs the question of stuff like gender identity within the Hunt and if you bring back the radfem stuff it gets real bad vibes real fast. Which also sucks when you particularly look at historical/mythological descriptions of Apollo and Artemis and how they very poignantly encompass defying gender roles and expectations particularly within their cultural contexts.

And every time Rick tries to retcon the Hunt, he somehow manages to make it kind of worse, particularly with the oath. I have a whole personal thing for how I think to best rectify all that nonsense in a way that isn't horrible and is related to some of Artemis' aspects in a more sensible way (buried somewhere in this monster of a post. Honestly i'd just recommend ctrl + f search "Hunters" on that post and it should be somewhere near the first ping there). In there I also go into some of my other thoughts for the general meh way the Hunt is written in the series, mostly being aphobic tropes and random death fodder.

So yeah. Basically, tl;dr: I am personally not a huge fan of how Artemis in the series is halfway to being a terf and chock-full of aphobic tropes. And I need Rick to stop retconning things into the ground.

[wanderingmind867]

The Aphrodite cabin has good reason to hate the Hunters of Artemis. Love is important, damn it! There's so many kinds of love! Romantic love! Platonic love! It isn't all about sex, like Artemis seems to think it is! Artemis condemns love! Just love. She doesn't care about the many different types of love. She is the worst and her hunters are the worst.

[eliaswoodt]

The Name List

Organized from A-Z (yes I will add more names whenever I find more I like, probably in reblogs)

I currently have 1035 names (and that’s only including the first names. I have a list of last names, too.)

Angel, Atticus, Atlas, Apollo, Ares, Athena, Achilles, Artemis, Adonis, Avery, Aubrey, Aubry, Aceline, Ashlynn, Aislinn, Anjanette, Arthur, Archer, Addison, Arrietty, Amity, Autumn, Alastor, Alastair, Alasdair, Alistair, Alison, Arren, Arin, Astra, Aoife, Adalyn, Adeleine, Astoria, Agnes, Angus, Abigail, Ann, Anne, Ambrose, Adeline, Avarsel, Agatha, Ari, Azariah, Aniyah, Armani, Anastasia, Annabelle, Adah, Adelaide, Avis, Amelia, August, Axel, Adelina, Amir, Amin, Ayala, Arne, Averett, Adil, Astro, Ava, Anti, Ailun, Akemi, Asahi, Akari, Asako, Atsuko, Azumi, Aka, Aren, Akko

Blossom, Bambi, Babs, Bo, Bella, Blair, Bea, Bonnabel, Badeea, Betty, Bailey, Boris, Bee, Bugs, Blaise, Benjamin, Bog, Buford, Beatrice, Bryce, Bryan, Bazil, Brutus, Bellamy, Brigitte, Bailee, Bailey, Bao, Belladona, Belladonna, Bell, Bill, Bishop, Bones, Boneothy, Benno, Behemoth, Barry, Bellynn, Bowie, Bunki

Clover, Canyon, Cleo, Cameron, Celestial, Celestino, Ciro, Camilo, Cain, Charlotte, Clara, Corey, Cin, Charlie, Cassidy, Chiara, Callista, Cisco, Cynthia, Casper Clinton, Celestina, Clement, Christopher, Cornelius, Clifford, Claudius, Carey, Carrie, Coatl, Cyrus, Cyril, Cecil, Caisus, Castiel, Calla, Cosmos, Cherry, Cheryl, Crowley, Crow, Cassius, Cliodna, Clíodhna, Cliona, Conan, Cordelia, Calypso, Cas, Cillian, Chiyo, Chiaki, Chihiro, Calcifer

Danny, Darlene, Dex, Dot, Diana, Daphne, Demeter, Daedalus, Daeddel, Darphel, Dawn, Derrick, Derek, Dravan, Dravid, Drae, Dallas, Dimas, Dominic, Damien, Drew, Delilah, Dakota, Darian, Darius, Darwin, Devan, Darla, Dagmar, Daelyn, Dale, Dae, Dacey, Desmond, Dabria, Daniel, Daniela, Danialla, David, Davis, Donnel, Dennis, Demitrius, Delaney, Daiki, Daiyu

Everest, Emery, Ember, Elliott, Elliot, Earlana, Eliseo, Ezequiel, Emie, Evan, Eloise, Eric, Emmet, Elizabeth, Eugene, Ethan, Eret, Ester, Elias, Eos, Ellis, Edwin, Ebony, Elijah, Eliza, Enzo, Elissa, Edward, Eddalyn, Esther, Eda, Edalyn, Edalynn, Edison, Eddison, Estervan, Emma, Eden, Erfan, Eun-hae, Erytheia, Egan, Errol, Eiichi, Eiji, Eriko, Etsu, Etsuko, Eiichiro, Ezume

Flint, Finn, Fae, Fred, Fritz, Fang, Frankie, Frank, Fermin, Freddie, Freddy, Finley, Freya, Fai, Felix, Freda, Faolan, Frey, Feylynn, Faelynn, Failynn, Felipa, Febby, Febbie, Febie, Feby, Flynn, Fuji, Feiyu, Fukiko, Fumitaka, Fumito, Fuyuko

Griffin, Garnet, Gothi, Gertrude, Gabe, Grant, Giovanni, George, Gage, Gregory, Gabriel, Gabrielle, Guy, Gilbert, Guadalupe, Gerry, Grey, Gray, Gia, Grace, Gracian, Gracis, Gracie, Gretel, Gideon, Griffilow, Ghost, Ghazaleh, Gavin, Gryphon, Griffith, Goliath, Grayson, Greyson

Harmony, Hannah, Harlei, Harlie, Haritha, Haris, Harry, Harlan, Harvey, Hadrian, Harley, Hari, Harlow, Howl, Hank, Harper, Herbert, Humphrey, Hestia, Helios, Hephaestus, Hollis, Hunter, Hero, Henry, Helda, Hajar, Hasta, Hadis, Howard, Howie, Hannan, Haoyu, Hisako, Hachi, Hiroto, Hoshiko, Honoka, Hiroshi, Hiro, Haitao, Hamako, Haruhi, Harue, Hayate, Hide, Hideyo, Hidetaka, Hisaye, Hisayo, Heiji, Higari

Ivy, Ivey, Ivo, Ida, Iris, Ilyssa, Illy, Irene, Iren, Isaiah, Ira, Idelle, Ivan, Illaoi, Isabel, Isabell, Isabelle, Isobell, Isabella, Ismelda, Io, Ismael, Isolt, Icarus, izuru, Isamu, Itona, Ichiro, Ichiko, Ichigo, Isoko, Ishiko, Isaye, Inari, Ikuko, Itsuki, Itsuko, Inosuke

Juniper, Jupiter, Jinx, Jamie, Javier, Josiah, Joan, Jake, Julia, Jamil, Jamila, Jesse, Jessie, Jess, Jasper, Janus, Jordan, Joshua, Julian, Juilliard, Julius, Juliana, Jeremiah, Jace, June, Junebug, Jazzy, Jackson, Jackie, Jackalynn, Jodie, Johnnie, Jan, Jaime, Jason, Jorge, Justin, Justice, John, Jay, Janelle, James, Jennifer, Jillion, Jill, Jana, Jonah, Jaycee, Jaxen, Junpei, Jona, Jun, Jin

Kenneth, Kat, Kas, Kris, Keith, Kingston, Kaeton, Kingsley, Kent, Katherine, Kyle, Knox, Kristen, Kristin, Kristeen, Kylie, Kaylee, Kamila, Kehlani, Kendall, Kerry, Kry, Kenny, Kath, Kathleen, Krow, Kix, Kedrick, Kennon, Klaus, Killian, Korallia, Krank, Kaz, Kaede, Kirara, Katsuhiko, Keisuke, Kanako, Kenji, Kaemon, Kamin, Katsu, Kaki, Kazane, Kazuyuki, Kazushige, Kenta, Kei, Kimi, Kin, Kohako, Koichi, Kota, Koji, Koharu, Kosuke, Kuma, Kumi, Kuniko, Kuniyuki, Kideko, Kazuko

Lullaby, Lotte, Lapin, Lorelei, Loralai, Lorelai, Luna, Lily, Lucy, Lee, Liana, Lola, Lethe, Lance, Laurence, Luther, Luca, Lennon, Logan, Lennox, Ilias, Liu, Lui, Luis, Lefu, Liam, Lyall, Lowell, Luella, Leona, Leonie, Leon, Lev, Lincoln, Lin, Link, Laverna, Lazarus, Lewis, Louis, Louise, Levi, Leslie, Lesley, Leilana

Marley, Marlai, Mei, May, Mae, Marceline, Marshall, Marshalee, Millie, Mallorie, Marcela, Melanie, Maddison, Mary, Mirabel, Marsh, Murphy, Montgomery, Mildred, Memphis, Molly, Maverick, Maurice, Muiris, Morgen, Max, Moses, Marion, Merrill, Monroe, Melanthios, Maxwell, Matias, Melissa, Maëlle, Marlene, Meredith, Maybelle, Margaret, Maeve, Moss, Mara, Maria, Myrtle, Mona, Mark, Markus, Michael, Micheal, Michelle, Mahsa, Minoo, Mehdi, Mohammad, Matin, Morpheus, Marlowe, Monica, Marilia, Magnus, Malachi, Malachy, Maggie, Makoto, Megumi, Mio, Maemo, Maemi, Masa, Masaaki, Masashi, Michi, Midori, Michinori, Momo, Motoko

Natasha, Noelle, Noni, Neville, Nixon, Neda, Natalio, Ned, Nausicaä, Noxis, Nova, Nathen, Newt, Noah, Nash, Nox, Nathara, Nathaira, Nathair, Nyoka, Nagisa, Nathan, Nate, Nik, Nick, Naohiro, Naoko, Nara, Natsu, Naoya, Nishi, Nobuko, Nori

Olindo, Ollie, Oliver, Ophelia, Odysseus, Orion, Osono, Oxen, Onyx, Otto, Ottoline, Otitile, Ottavia, Octavio, Olivia-Marie, Oakley, Omar, Olivia, Oscar, Octavian, Octavia, Oz, Octavius, Otta, Oisin, Orson, Orlos, Osiris, Owen, Odalis, Odell, Ozuru

Penelope, Patton, Paddy, Percy, Paulie, Page, Pazu, Phoebe, Phebe, Prairie, Porter, Parlay, Pally, Piper, Parker, Payton, Phil, Paul, Philip, Pyre, Piers, Phylis, Patricia, Payne, Payneton, Pip

Quinn, Quincy, Quil, Quinley, Quinstin, Quinlan, Quillen, Quavon, Quaylon, Quensley, Qing, Qrow, Quilla, Quianna, Quita, Qiao, Quinella, Queenie, Qaylah, Qailah, Qitarah, Quenby, Qadira, Qudsiyah, Quan, Qian, Quinby, Quella

Roseline, Raul, Rahul, Rafael, Roque, Rogelio, Remmy, Rei, Rey, Ray, Robin, Ro, Reika, Rowen, Rowan, Rose, Rosie, Ralsei, Riley, Remus, Rosalyn, Rosalin, Rosaline, Renata, Ron, Rat, Ratt, Reef, Roxy, River, Reed, Rufus, Robbie, Renee, Rivia, Ross, Rex, Ruth, Rosemary, Rosabe, Rosabee, Rosabell, Rosabelle, Rosabel, Rai, Rain, Rosella, Rosalie, Rhody, Robert, Raelinn, Rebane, Ren, Rollin, Ralph, Roxanne, Rox, Roderick, Reginald, Reggie, Rio, Ryu, Ryo, Ryoji, Rinmaru

Sage, Sam, Syd, Selkie, Storig, Sal, Sirius, Summer, Susie, Scott, Sunni, Sosuke, Sophie, Satsuki, Sheeta, San, Sulley, Sully, Savannah, Sappho, Selene, Shaw, Sean, Seán, Shaun, Sawyer, Sabrina, Sebastian, Shane, Stan, Socks, Snom, Stolas, Spencer, Sammie, Stevie, Samus, Sarff, Sullivan, Seth, Susiebell, Susiebelle, Sadreddin, Shellaine, Sverre, Saoirse, Sylvania, Sanae, Silas, Sumi, Shiori, Shinzu, Sile

Toby, Tobias, Teddy, Ted, Tomas, Thomas, Tomothy, Tyche, Taiga, Tundra, Tracy, Timothy, Troy, Tatum, Tommie, Tommy, Theia, Tae, Trix, Trixy, Thanathos, Tod, Todd, Toddy, Tora, Torie, Theodore, Theo, Theophania, Talos, Thanatos, Teddy, Tomohito, Tazu, Tanjirou, Touya

Ulysses, Urijah, Uriyah, Urina, Ukiah, Ulnar, Ursula, Ulric

Virgil, Vanessa, Vito, Venacio, Vylad, Veronica, Valentina, Violet, Velma, Venus, Verna, Veld, Victoria, Victorie, Vinyl, Vincent, Vasuki, Vex, Valor, Valentine, Valerie, Valeria, Valerius, Vitoria, Vic, Victor, Vik, Vikktor, Viktor, Vick, Vicky, Vicke, Vickie, Vidya

Wynn, Willow, Warren, Wilbur, Wylie, Will, Walle, Whisp, Wade, Wendell, Wendy, Willard, Wes, Wallace, Wilber, Wyatt, Wybie, Wynnie, Wennie, Winnie, Wynnston, Wynston, Wynsten, Wiles

Xenophon, Xuan, Xio, Xori, Xanthos, Xander, Xavier

Yen, Yukio, Yae, Yoko, Yume, Yaeko, Yui, Yuzuki

Zane, Zana, Zion, Zachary, Zach, Zachariah, Zander, Ziana, Zoe, Zula, Zenix, Zenith, Zaharia, Zaria, Zack, Zakaeia, Zara, Zakaria, Zev, Zaira, Zanata

[kamiko1234]

I am currently at the end of chapter 3 of The Titan's Curse and oh man, do I have some thoughts. So first things first. I do not like Artemis. Like, at all. She's currently inhabiting spot 2 on my "I hope Luke wins because of you guys" RIGHT after Ares himself. I REALLY don't like the whole "anti-boy" thing she and her Hunters have going on. Like, okay- I get it to some degree. Chasity and maidenhood is like- her whole thing. But honestly, at this point, it feels almost fanatic. I'm a girl myself, and it makes me genuinely uncomfortable how they act and what they say. It also weirds me out how.... pushy they are to Bianca ? Especially how they seem to disregard Nico in all of this. It was stated that Bianca and Nico are their only remaining relatives. Percy brings up a very valid point in the fact that Nico cannot become a Hunter. Bianca would leave her only brother behind, her brother whose only family she is. And in response Artemis and Zoe just- blow that whole concern off ???????? Saying that they would become Bianca's new family. It could have worked better had this decision only attempted Bianca- BUT IT DOESN'T. What about Nico ? Who would become Nico's new family !? Well APPARENTLY Artemis and her Hunters COULDN'T CARE LESS because he was born with the wrong gender. Sorry kiddo though luck ig 🤷‍♀️ And then that nasty comment when they talk about Nico going to camp with "that's all boys are good for" The fuck Artemis????? I know DAMN WELL ur ass didn't just insult the ONE relatively safe place for demigods where those kids are trained up to do the shit YOU AND YOUR FAMILY are too lazy to do !? Like I have my problems with Camp, not gonna lie. I still think it's still unsafe (even if it's better compared to- well, everywhere else) and their teaching methods are a bit questionable (how has no one thought of organizing some damn therapy for these kids !?) BUT ALSO !?!?!?!? Bianca who JUST said she was still thinking about joining the hunters only to then immediately make up her mind and join ? Naw I'm calling foul play. At this point I'm not putting ANYTHING past ANY god. I would fully trust Artemis to manipulate Bianca's mind or something. I swear to god with every chapter I read I become more and more of a Luke apologist. He went off the deep end for a good freaking reason and he has every right to personally decapitate every god to ever walk the earth. But also, ANNABETH BABY ARE YOU OKAY !? ARE YOU GOOD GIRL ??? WHERE'D YOU GO !? God I am PRAYING it ain't Tartarus or anything- atleast Artemis said she'd search for her so I suppose Mrs. "Human rights for men ? Who needs that !" isn't TOTALLY useless beyond ending my nerves. Poor Nico by the way, he seems like such a nice kid ! A total nerd and drok which honestly ? Stan. As someone who's a nerd myself (although I'm more in the Anime and history department (weird combo ik)) I can stan him. But also MY POOR BABY. That child basically lost his sister to something I'm not yet convinced isn't some weird cult RIGHT AFTER being attacked by a literal MONSTER.

That must hurt. As for Thalia.... yeah not sure about her. She seems to have some bad blood with the hunters of Artemis and that Zoë girl which makes her immediately more likable to me. But also I was sort of thrown into a loop with how suddenly the book started into the story, I would have liked a bit of a slower start with more build-up to get to know her better.

She seems to have a pretty confrontational personality , which is the main thing that makes me a bit unsure about her. But other than that she sems pretty cool so far ! Hope to see more. One thing however made me worry a bit.... that mist thing. Where Thalia was able to manipulate the mist, and upon Percy's questioning asking if "Chiron didn't show you that yet". How it's treated to be nothing special....... listen if I wasn't a bit iffy about the whole system of the Camp I am now. Why didn't Chiron show Percy that ? It doesn't look to be some special ability reserved for children of Zeus. Infact, why didn't Chiron show that EVERY demigod !? I am hoping to god that an explanation for that's gonna come up later to explain this. Otherwise I'll just have to assume that Chiron is refusing to teach those kids a valuable and also kinda important skill just because.

(Also on an off note, y'all remember that one "Who's Jason Theory" I had a while back where I concluded he's either from Roman North Korea or a Rome fanboy ? Yeah I got it confirmed from a friend a while back that he's from Roman North Korea. Holy fuck, so apperantly The Democratic Demigod's Republic of Rome exists canonically. And apparently they are the East Germany to Camp Halfblood's West Germany. Yikes. Don't know much more tho than it existing and apperantly being well, Roman North Korea. So please no spoilers there ^^)

(Please mark any spoilers in your replies/reblogs so I can avoid them, thank you )

[my-pjo-stuff]

Joining the Hunters of Artemis would unironically be my BIGGEST nightmare. Because wdym I'm giving up the company of men forever.

I think everyone forgot that that wouldn't just include love romantic partners! That includes friends and family too! Like what do you mean I'll never get to see my father again? My cousins? My uncles? My grandfather? My friends? My classmates? My teachers? What do you mean that I can never again see half of the people I have ever known? Fuck THAT is what i say!? How dare some random ahh goddess demand some bullshit like that of the people she's supposed to protect. Artemis goes after girls between 9 (youngest) to 15 (oldest)- you cannot tell me that none of these girls had male family and friends whom they loved! And for what can't they see each other? Because they are male? You can't even go and say it's to avoid romance because I'm talking about male FAMILY MEMBERS here!

Artemis talks about giving her hunters a new family, but what about the family she takes from them? What about all those fathers who lost their little girls? What about all the brothers who'll never see their sister again because some goddess got them to join her? Artemis and her Hunters are a bunch of creeps.

[rosabell14]

An analysis of Bianca di Angelo's role in the narrative and why bad writing can screw over a character.

For someone with such a limited time in the narrative, Bianca is one of the most divisive characters in the fandom. I've been in the fandom long enough to see how much nuance the fandom lacks when discussing certain characters and Bianca is no difference. But it's more than just viewing the characters' actions in a vacuum. It's ignoring the larger narrative problems. At the end of the day Bianca suffers from one simple problem: she's barely a character outside of her role in Nico's narrative. Like it or not, her entire character exists to die and give Nico issues down the road but Riordan's writing decisions didn't do her any favours either.

I feel like this is a huge issue when it comes to the pjo fandom they often try to come up with Watsonian solutions to problems that are Doylist in nature and Bianca is one example of that.

Case in point: Riordan's shit math when it comes to the Di Angelo siblings and how it messes up with bianca's character.

So when we meet them they're 10 and 12. We learn that their memories of their past is kinda hazy and that they don't remember their parents but that they were in a boarding school, then they moved to the lotus hotel, then they were taken out of the hotel and put into Westover's. And at the end we learn that they're Hades's children born before the oath of the big 3.

Said oath happened after WW2 btw. So 1945 probably since Bianca remembers FDR's presidency.

Now in TLO we get an update on this backstory. Hades is speaking to Maria about moving his children to the underworld or the lotus hotel since Maria doesn't like the former option because the war has put Hades in a bad situation with his brothers and also the prophecy is out, the oath has been taken and they're running out of time to hide the kids. So logic says that it's 1945. And then Zeus immediately kills Maria and Hades tells Alecto to erase the children's memories and put them in the lotus hotel, and honestly? I like this version much better? Because why in the world would Hades Put his children in a boarding school for a few years and THEN hide them in the hotel after they were nearly assassinated? Why not immediately put them in the hotel?

And so we get to our main dilemma. Bianca having to raise Nico. This was already strange to me because it's not as if this is a Jason and Thalia situation where Jason was a toddler and Thalia had to take care of him. Nico is not a baby they have a two year age difference. But of course these kinds of things might matter more if you're young. Even then, in what situation would Bianca be Nico's main caretaker? They were put into a magic hotel that mind you, makes time go faster so for them it was a month or two at best and they would have been given whatever they needed by the staff? Same type of issue with Westover's and the boarding school if you want consider that canon. They would have been taken care of by the facility. They probably wouldn't even have shared classes or dorms? Or am I misunderstanding American boarding schools?

And then, Riordan's bad math strikes again and this time with the characters' ages. Because Nico's age in HoO becomes 14 which would have made him 11/almost 12 in TTC but that's not the big problem, no no no. The problem comes from his official birthday which is 1932.

1932... Which would have made him 13 and Bianca 15 by the time Maria dies. Which is hilarious because with the way the kids are written during her death scene as absolute non players with nary a reaction, you would think they were written to be toddlers who didn't understand anything that was going on.

That royally screws over Bianca as a character (and me as someone who's trying to write a story centered around her). Because her main thing. The one time she's allowed to have complexity is the moment where she talks about how she wants to be more than Nico's caretaker, and she's barely Nico's caretaker at all. The best in universe explanation I can come up for this is that this is how Bianca perceives things because that's all that she literally remembers. Those months in the hotel and Westovers.

Another time the plot kinda messes her up is at the beginning of TTC. One complaint that I often see in regards to her Is how quickly she makes her decision. She does not even hesitate. She does not even wait to see the camp. You know the place that would have taken care of her and Nico which would have meant she wasn't going to be his supposed primary caretaker anymore? She doesn't even wait to see if it was an actual good place for her brother? Spoiler alert: it's not camp half-blood at the time was not a good place for either of them really. Nico did not have a cabin at camp and people were not accepting of him. Hell, people not being accepting of hades and his children was something established since the first book.

But once again, this is a Doylist problem at its core. We need to turn Bianca into a hunter but we also need Artemis to leave so that she can be kidnapped for the main conflict, so she leaves before the hunters even reach camp. Half-blood. So Bianca as a character doesn't even get to make a proper choice between the camp and the hunters. To people who only look at characters on an in universe level, it comes off as very rash and not well thought out.

To be fair, on an in universe level, she's a kid so it's okay if she's stupid, but Riordan wasn't trying to make her come off as that way? He treats Bianca's decision as a legit serious choice and not the rash decision of a desperate child.

And once again, Bianca is here for Nico's sake more than anything. She needs to die. So she takes the statue for Nico. Which is so ironic and tragic if you decide to play it that way. That Bianca wanted to be more than Nico's sister, but her literal death revolves around being his sister. Normally I'd enjoy this level of angsty irony but unfortunately that's how the very narrative treats her as well. Even her post mortem decisions are there to maximize Nico's angst more than that they're there to say anything about Bianca herself. We need Bianca to only appear at the end of Botl so that Nico and Percy can have a conflict but it once again comes at the cost of Bianca herself coming off as callous. What's the in universe reason for this behavior? It's so stupid because in universe, Nico doesn't even take that much convincing? One conversation. One conversation and Nico was convinced to stop his efforts in reviving her. Does she just not know her brother enough? Maybe since they technically know each other for a year max. Does she genuinely think she's that easy to give up on? Is she that conflict avoidant? I actually like this interpretation and plan to use it. There's much to be done with a character who's rash and bold but an absolute emotional coward who'd try to avoid an emotionally charged conversation until they absolutely can't.

Hell even after Botl, it's the same song and dance. Hades makes an absolute vile remark at Nico's expense. TSATS makes it into a joke moment and has you believe that Hades simple said that Bianca would have been a better demigod. No ladies and gentlemen. Hades literally tells Nico that he wished Bianca had survived instead.(The fact that I still think that hades is the best godly parent just shows you how low the bar is more than anything.)

I swear to God I spent so much time racking my brain trying to understand what this could mean for Bianca's character.

This is how I basically look like trying to milk every scene where Bianca is there as a character or is mentioned for every drop of characterization.

At the end of the day, I can't blame most of the fandom for being ambivalent towards her at best. The story by design is about Nico. It's designed for you to sympathize with him and yeah if I'm to look at it from Nico's perspective. He DID get abandoned, regardless of Bianca's intentions. From his Perspective , which is the one most people would take, his sister took the very first chance she could to ditch him for people she barely knew hoping people either of them barely knew would take care of him even though they haven't even seen the place yet, and then ignored him for months while he was desperate for a single conversation with her. Honestly had Nico outright resented his sister for leaving, I think the reaction towards her would have even been worse.

(Another sidenote, my very hot tea Is that I like to believe that had Bianca lived her and Nico's relationship would have become worse as time went on and as the camp's anti hades sentiments really started taking their toll on Nico. But I'm just an angst lover)

Worse is that this story is told from Percy's perspective and these two only have like 3 actual conversations together. One of them is her dying, one is about her making her first main decision and that's at the expense of Nico who's probably the fandom favorite behind Percy and Annabeth and the other is her trying to explain her aforementioned decision to Percy and even then, she talks about it in such broad strokes. "I want to be more than X" tells us about who you one day wish to be not about who you are at the current moment. And even when we have Nico as a POV character, Bianca is only there for "dead family member" trope. There's barely any moment where Nico remembers anything important about her to give her any depth. The cards are just stacked against her. Even the people who are at the "Bianca did nothing wrong camp" are barely interested in her. I swear to god whenever an AU comes up where she's alive, the focus is STILL on Nico. Oh Nico would have been such a happy person had she lived! And Bianca? Uhhhhh she would have fucked off with the hunters I guess?

Can we talk about the hunters while we're here?

If we WERE to talk about in universe scapegoats, I'd honestly choose the hunters. Honestly I could make a separate post about how much I hate how Riordan handled them. But oh dear God the way they're presented just comes off as creepy. The way they initially (up until TOA) only go for young girls because apparently older girls aren't useful once they hit puberty and start developing feelings for people and lose themselves(TTC and Percy Jackson's Greek gods oh dear lord are they terrible in Percy Jackson's Greek gods). How they're basically the heroine dumping ground for when Riordan doesn't know what to do with a female character. How ultimately in universe, Zoe more than anyone is to blame to for Bianca's death by taking an untrained girl to a mission where she KNOWS two people would die at the very least. And she doesn't even watch her properly during the mission. Honestly I could barely feel anything about Zoe's death upon rereads as an adult for this very reason. Or how stupid it is to basically put a child in front of a candy store and expect them to make a responsible decision. Who in their right mind would have young girls as young as nine take a celibacy vow? Oh but you'll be safe with us (never mind that we're not just normal hunters here like the actual myths but actual monster hunters) and you'll totally be able to see your brother when you want (actually we barely visit camp half-blood) oh but you'll be a FAMILY with us! Except you know if you catch feelings or get assaulted(holy hell how Riordan depicts the myth of Callisto makes me want to tear my hair out of my scalp)

[punkeropercyjackson]

Literally one of the worst trope's for alt male characters is 'His canon type is weirdgirls but in fanon he's always made to like girls who try to control him'.What're they doing to our autistic kings💔💔💔💔💔