#at least els whole memory plot

[strange-anni]

Wipeout

There are multiple instances where 3 o'clock seems to be an important time

Mayor Larrys parade starts at 3 P.M. on the 4th of July in S3

The grandfather clock Chrissy sees in the woods also shows 3 o'clock (Note that all the other victims get a different time although I can't confirm this for Max as it is too hard to see)

It's 3 o'clock when El and One start their plan to escape the lab

When Henry starts to turn back time in his flashback it is also 3 o'clock

It is also noteworthy that 3 o'clock on an analogue clock resembles an "L"

Then only 40 to 50 minutes later more ominous things happen.

Robin informs us that they all die and it's just a matter of time. This happens at the same time as ...

... both Steve and Dustin are burning up. At least Dustin if not both of them are also considered packaged goods.

Then of cause there is El in S4 who finds Henry at approximately 03:47 A.M. or P.M. after he has killed all the kids in the lab. It's interesting to note that this time stays the same throughout their whole conversation which is I might say is quite long.

I think some important event in the past (perhaps a birthday party?) started at 3 P.M. and then turned into a catastrophe only 40 to 50 minutes later. Maybe a wipeout happened.

@greenfiend

[wheelercore]

Theory with no coherent proof on my part: brenner only visibly ages rapidly when a portal is open.

[conflictofthemind]

holly wheeler - who/what are you? an informal post about all of the holly oddities I've discovered so far.

where do I even begin with this one? I'm just going to jump into it and show you all the weird connections I've found that mostly relate to holly-el/jane, holly-alice and holly-sarah. I have no real conclusions so far so I invite everyone to take a look and share their thoughts.

oddity one: the hair

All four are blonde girls, and three have pigtails or twin braids, reminiscent of rabbit ears.

oddity two: the rabbits

terry ives' home, inside what should have been jane ives' room:

holly wheeler and her rabbit lite-brite:

alice creel and the dead rabbit:

And why the rabbits? Well, they're all a reference to Alice in Wonderland. The first rabbit in the painting in Jane's room is just literally the rabbit from AIW, fitted with a pocketwatch.

Alice in Wonderland:

Just check out #whiterabbitgate for more on the two above, the song 'White Rabbit' is also connected to El and just general HNL activities.

The Rainbows:

(above is the Terry Ives flashback from season two)

Holly's outfit in Season 5 is incredibly colourful and there are at least 3 different rainbow items inside her room.

The Flowers:

^ Holly even has yellow red and blue flowers on her bicycle basket.

My questions have already been: why is Vecna/Henry seemingly interested in her enough to not only lure her but continue 'playing' with her for multiple scenes? Why is Holly suddenly relevant?

I'm also a BTVS fan, and the idea of a younger sister suddenly introduced had me thinking of Dawn. Dawn was Buffy's younger sister introduced suddenly in Season 5 (literally out of nowhere) - until it turned out that she wasn't a fully real person, but a powerful energy turned into a human that was sent to the Summers' house where they would protect her. She never existed until she was fourteen, but they all believed she had with false memories. Furthermore, she becomes the target of that season's villain which Buffy has to protect.

So then we get to Holly's room:

Most notably for this post are ALF and the 'A Royal Pain' book. Let me just show you the plot summaries for both, starting with ALF:

I initially thought the ALF reference was just a reference to El (and it very much could be a dual thing). But considering the strangeness.... and the parallels that are coming to light between them.

A Royal Pain:

There has already been baby-switch precedent in the show. In fact it's a major theory about Jane Ives and El - that they aren't the same child. But when it's been specifically brought up, it's been in relation to the Wheelers. Karen, was your other daughter swapped in the hospital? Or something even crazier?

I'll get to more when my ideas are less of a mess. But there's also something interesting @bylerposting has brought up - the way that Mike has this whole interesting out of place dialogue with El.

But what if it wasn't about El - what if it was also subtext for Holly? She came into the family even though she wasn't a biological daughter. The Wheelers were like her new parents, and Nancy was like her new sister.

And there's so much more I'm thinking of but can't get to right now, like Holly with the lights and her perception of the supernatural before others sense it. I just want to get this ball rolling for real.

[gayofthefae]

They've said they want their show rewatchable. As someone who wasn't like SUPER invested in the ships/show before, the most rewatchable thing they can do is Mike's queerness.

I would not have rewatched it until season 5 came out. Maybe once before then if I got bored, but definitely not as much as I have without it. And the plots for Will have been too supernatural focused (also a good rewatch point after season 5 comes out, I'm sure) to be worth rewatching for his queer personal plot for two seasons before we even really get to it too much.

But Mike? Everything Mike does is impacted by his queerness. Will? Obviously. El? Most DEFINITELY. The Supernatural? You mean the thing that only ever affects Will and El? Yup.

Do you know my first thought, as someone not yet obsessed, when it started to become more clear that Mike was queer? "Oh, that's more interesting"

The average person isn't gonna drop the show because their ship broke up amicably. But they are going to if they get bored.

Mike having been queer the entire time, who cares if planned, as long as it isn't contradicted by anything prior (which is not possible because queerness is not disprovable) just gives a whole new view to everything he's ever done, making it less straightforward than you thought it was, changing your original view of the events, making you want to rewatch just to see how each moment is impact.

Making it more INTERESTING.

It's simple, honestly. Speaking as someone who passively thought the couples were cute and generally wanted the characters to be happy but wasn't deeply attached or fixating on any part of the show, Mike being queer is just more interesting than him being straight. That's all the people really want.

They've already gotten lots more residuals from this. And I'm sure they know that at least half of it isn't just because of the vol 2 lore drop. And it isn't because of what we think is gonna happen for Will in season 5 either, why watch seasons where it also hasn't happened yet. It's because of something else, much like the lore, that affects every facet of an entire plotline from the first episode. Not even the lore actually does that, it's just interesting to know, but that one's easier to connect back in your memory, but isn't as deeply rooted that you need to think through every singular behavior of the mind flayer. But with Mike, we know it affects it, but we immediately had to know how.

I probably would have rewatched it once by now. Maybe one more time a year from now to prepare for the season 5 release, but maybe not. I didn't do my rewatch before season 4's release, so I might not have. But instead, because of Mike and Mike only, I'm currently on my third watch since 2022. Maybe fourth, I'm not sure. Not just because of a ship I wanna see again because they're cute. Because I'm LEARNING something new every time I see his face on my screen. Not because I ship it, not even because I personally want it to be true for any character's sake.

But because Mike being queer is just. more. interesting.

[givehimthemedicine]

El traded herself for Max in the void: a timeline switch crack concept

I'm not saying "theory" because I'm not 100% serious but hear me out anyway because there is something here, I'm just not sure what. if nothing else I get to inflict an angsty scenario on you

so you know how Two Days Later El's behavior irt Max is just so weird?

after everything that happened, you'd expect El to already be screaming "IS MAX OKAY?" as the van door is sliding open. instead, she doesn't ask about her at all.

even when Dustin says Lucas is at the hospital, El goes "is he hurt?" as if Max isn't crossing her mind at all as a reason for him to be at the hospital.

Will's casual inquiry of "where's Lucas" is weird in of itself. Will was there when El hatched the whole "Protect Max" plot and literally spoke to El while she was in Max's memories/the void. he knew Max being in danger was the whole thing. he definitely would've asked about Max before he asked about Lucas.

then Lucas says how it was a miracle that Max's heart started beating again, and Mike and Will give El this look. the obvious interpretation being that they assume El is somehow responsible but didn't say a word about it. (classic El behavior)

call me crazy, but doesn't it kinda fit to say that Two Days Later El does not have Void El's memories?

the El who arrives in Hawkins is NOT acting AT ALL like someone who watched her best friend die, brought her back, and ended the interaction with her in a dubiously-alive-critically-injured state.

this El is behaving like one who succeeded in rescuing Max and therefore isn't especially worried about her current status. maybe even a version where Lucas never got beaten up, the tape never got broken, the plan worked. who never told the boys she revived Max, because she didn't.

there's just something about El being all dirty and bloody during Max's death scene and then visiting Max two days later still wearing the same outfit except a still-clean version of it. like none of that happened to this El.

there's just something about Dustin's "oh God, you don't know." maybe this El doesn't! she looks lost af.

there's just something about Mike's "we came as soon as we heard." El was there and saw it all, but you just now heard it from Dustin? I know El is tight lipped but you're really saying she got out of the pizza freezer and into a TWO DAY LONG van ride and the conversation never got around to, like... how the mission went?

yet as of the cabin end scene, suddenly Mike and Will both know stuff that only El could've told them. so.. she did talk in the van? but didn't mention the Max stuff? that's even weirder.

let's talk about Vecna's 4th gate

so gates open on the exact spot of Vecna's victims' bodies, right?

here's where the Max gate starts to open in the UD attic, corresponding to exactly where Max is lying dead in the RU attic.

except that absolutely cannot be.

because they showed us what instantly happens if even a small part of the gate crack passes beneath a person. it looks like this:

so if that gate originated exactly under Max's body, Lucas would not have any warning. the only way he would've found out about it is by seeing at least a section of Max's corpse suddenly get vaporized Jason-style. (if not also his own body!)

instead, Lucas has time to see it starting to form and pull Max to safety. which means it couldn't have started forming exactly under Max.

the forming gate that Lucas is looking at as he drags Max away is actually sorta between Max and the spider shrine.

now look where El was sitting.

what if the 4th sacrifice was El, not Max?

we never actually saw the results of whatever El did when she put her hand over Max's heart. the easiest assumption is she just did magic cpr and started Max's heart again. but what if she was doing something to trade places with Max?

"but wtf are you talking about, because El continues being alive for the rest of the episode?"

for this concept I'm borrowing an idea from @heroesbyler that's had me clawing the walls of my cell lately - in case you missed her recent big brain posts, she pointed out some weird discrepancies in actual vs void versions of scenes throughout the show, suggesting that when El visits the void, she could actually be looking into different timelines. I'd definitely submit the Creel attic as another example.

so when I say what if El traded herself for Max, I'm talking Void El and Void Max.

I'm talking something about Max's death, or revival, or the opening of the gates, throwing some kind of trolley dilemma train tracks switch between timelines. idk there are too many details to iron out before I pitch this in seriousness but idk I just. I swear to you Two Days Later El and Void El aren't lining up.

some discrepancies in the real vs void Creel attic (not all. this could be a whole post itself)

void vs UD:

according to the UD shot, the origin point of the death gate is perfectly centered relative to the rug, and, say, a foot away. here's my hasty approximation of where I'd expect it:

this is why I'm not taking the L about how honestly El's location doesn't perfectly align with the UD origin point - because neither does Max's.

void vs RU:

IRL, Lucas is cradling Max across his lap. his legs are more or less parallel to the spider shrine while Max is angled at, very roughly, 45 degrees to it. the bug lamp is centered on it.

in the void version, the bug light is far towards one end of the table. while Lucas and Max's positions feel fairly consistent, their placement relative to the SS is not.

if you follow the lines of the floorboards in the IRL shot, his butt is aligned nearly with the far right edge of the SS. but here, don't they all seem decidedly further towards the left of it?:

as soon as Max dies, things get differenter. now they're further right again, only Lucas and Max's positions are more spoony, pointed the same direction. she's nearly parallel with the SS now. her feet also seem jacked up at more severe angles.

overhead shot also makes that bug light's off-centeredness very clear.

also you notice how we don't see El hearing Max in the void? I mean, she must have, otherwise she wouldn't reply "No, you're not going", but it's just odd how WE don't see that.

I've talked before about how Max says both "I don't want to die" and "I don't want to go," which are two different concepts in ST universe, and that Lucas and El each get to respond to one of them. so why not show us El hearing the one that's hers?

IRL Max is begging for her life, but when we switch to the void, she's abruptly silent and much more still. El only hears Lucas. back to IRL, Max is still more actively struggling and vocalizing a little before she dies. the energy doesn't match super well.

other bits

on the subject of El's "No. You're not going." if you really wanted to, you could interpret that in a "- because I'm going instead" way. I know, she didn't especially say it with that inflection. but it does have me thinking about how incredibly in character it is for El to be willing to trade herself like that.

it made me think of this moment:

yeah we've all demanded to know what was the reason for having Owens assume Max was a boy. but has anyone talked about how El, in her reply to that very line ("no, do not send your men. send me.") does the same thing? Owens just said "people". El assumes they are men.

there's just something about El saying "do not send your men[?], send me" immediately after Owens referring to Max as a him[?]. it gives kind of a "don't take Max, take me" flavor.

there's also something about how Max wasn't supposed to be the 4th sacrifice anyway.

and by this point El has heard the monologue about how all this time, it's all been about getting to her. so she's definitely feeling that Max is dead in the crossfire because of her. you don't think that if she only could, she would take Max's place and face Vecna directly, whatever that entails? whether it's death or some ambiguous awful fate?

can you tell me this kid

wouldn't trade herself for Max?

also just curious that the very first time they played Running Up That Hill, it actually began on a shot of a distraught El walking down her school hallway before it transitioned to Max walking the opposite way down her school hallway. with the song edited to skip straight from the opening to the chorus about swapping places.

don't worry I'm sure there's no way that means anything 👍

finally, El is distraught not to be able to find Max in the void when she goes looking for her. but it's weird because El has located corpses, flayed people, and inanimate objects in the void before. there's no reason she shouldn't be able to locate Max due to her being in a coma/"trapped".

what if it's not Max who's offline? what if El can't see into that timeline anymore because she's dead in it?

[coniangray]

Whos watching life in Hawkins??

This hit me earlier when I realized all four stories of st4 had someone/ something being a know-it-all god or a heterodiagetic narrator watching and knowing everything all at once.

But not everywhere (pun intended)

All four storylines have both types of narrators:

A homodiegetic one, this being a character involved in the story and showing their prescription of things

A heterodiagetic one, aka the know-it-all god, recording and watching all the other characters.

Homodiegetic:

For the Hawkins plot it was max. For California it was Will and Mike. For the lab it was eleven, and for the prison it was Hopper (and I think Joyce on her way there, since the prison plot is somehow separate from Joyce and Yuri's plot).

I can tell, because we SEE all of those characters feelings displayed on screen in one way or another. Max was curious during the curse, therefore bringing the whole team together, Wills lingering in California was also shown through him only, Hopper's desparation and fear for joyce not making it safe ect.

The only one I'm on the fence about is Mike, since the last time we got a scene from his prospective was in s2 or at the rain fight in s3 I think. Aka, Mike's pov was not shown enough in s4, but it was there.

Heterodiagetic narrator:

This might sound tricky at first but it's not. Even though this narrator is not supposed to be a character at all: instead, they're just a messenger who convey the story from the writer to the reader (as all narrators do). They're a ghost, an entity, aka the camera of the characters.

But in this case, the narrator is in the show. Each plot has its own one, and that's what considered a god of their own nature.

I realized this from the security cameras and the memory storage of Brenner in Nina scenes. He was keeping and choosing which ones to show to El, aka choosing her path instead of her, which becomes clear in the show later on.

In Alaska, there was also security footage to which jopper had also access to later on.

As for California, they were also recorded/watched at some point. When? Right before the shooting.

The jokes about house arrest in this scene made me think the guards that were supposed to keep them same weren't just sitting, they were most likely recording the activity in the house due to protocol (at least i wanna believe it, considering Mike's house was anf might still be bugged since the end of s1 and the flashbacks in s2).

Also, in the van, they were most likely watched by El after she gained her powers.

And if all of these plots were watched by someone, then who was watching Hawkins?

Vecna.

I realized it from this video; vecna was legit searching for a source, another mind to curse in order to complete his plan.

The camera panning made me think he had access to anyone he wanted to. He could've chosen literally anyone in replacement of mike, but he went for Patrick instead.

Why? Because he knew he was in the same group with Lucas and Jason. As we saw, attacking Patrick triggered not just these two, but in total five people and the entire Hawkins team.

And became the wirters chose to plot wise.

My point is, the dynamics changed after his death, even in the slightest, bringing Lucas closer to max.

Now, because these gods are characters too, their own thoughts may interviene with what we see/ are shown, therefore leading everything back to homodiegetic or 1st person pov.

The main occupants here are Henry and of course, Brenner. Its like a domino effect, once brenner was watching one and now one is watching hawkins.

Their motives also beg to differ; Brenner was focusing more and only on logic, hence one disobeyed that rule and only relied on emotions, especially anger, to get his powers to their fullest potential, and thats what he also taught eleven.

But the main know it all god; The Mindflayer.

It literally watches everyone. Dustin said it himself:

A five star general that can open gates and watch. Tell us just His side of the story, messing with others memories, especially Wils, and everything related to him and el.

Aka, he can just change every detail he wants simply because he was watching.

Because his lenses were stronger than the other characters, and becuase he had and still has a devoted spy. A spy that can absorb information from inside.

And that spy is Will. even in season 4, even in the byler scenes, EVERYWHERE.

That kiiinda sounds like a hyperboly, but because the connection was there, it doesnt mean it was strong. The closer he got to hawkins, the stroger it got, thats why he felt him so intenesely at the cabin.

And here comes the unreliable narrator.

Most scenes are not shown excactly how things happen. Theyre not objective, theyre subjective, given how at least one persons pov is always involved.

This is also why there are a lot of variations of just one memory, why the void version of their timeline is slightly differrent, and why even though will saw mileven happy during the rinkomania skating scenes, an outsiders pov showed how they actually felt, dissapointed by everything.

One other thing id like to add, will MIGHT be playing the god role here too, taking in mind his ongoing connection with vecna and how this could eventually be displayed in vecnas mind if he wanted to. Hence the whole spy thing.

There was a post i read about El trading places with max and exchaging herself with a variant from another timeline, and that adds another layer to the unreliable narrator imo, thinking how the two days later el has different memories and knowledge than the el we knew from before and is now possibly dead.

The thing is, this unreliable narrator thing has SO many layers, and therfore shapes somewhat smalll plot holkes within scenes, especially in s1,2 and 4.

And it got even messier im 3 given hoe focusing solely on the mainstream 80's summer slasher movie vibe, some characters arcs were lost or outshined by others that had the chance to change their arcs for the better.

Yes, im talking about will who was sidelined a lot and then this was decided to be used as a weapon for the connection between him and the ud.

All the arcs are intertwined, but i CANT solve this untill we get s5. Its honestly frustrating like GIMME THE SOLUTION BRUHHHH

[soldado-bugado]

Bilingual post! English/PT-BR

Reading the book: The Eight Doctors (Terrance Dicks).

Lendo o livro: Os Oito Doutores.

Hearing a lot about the Doctor Who books lately gave me the willingness to finally read past the first chapter of the book, and now i think i'l start writing some bilingual posts on my thoughts about them!

It will be bilingual because, through my knowledge, Brazilian DW fans are very scarse on Tumblr, and it will also be a very good english training session.

Oh, and it's the first english book that i ever read!

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Recentemente escutei bastante sobre os livros de Doutor Who, e isso acabou me dando a motivação para finalmente passar do primeiro capitulo do livro, e agora eu acho que vou começar a escrever meus pensamentos sobre eles!

E bem, vai ser bilíngue, pois por meu conhecimento, os fans Brasileiros de DW são bem escassos aqui no Tumblr, e também acaba sendo um boa sessão de treino pro meu inglês.

Ah, e este é também o primeiro livro em inglês que leio!

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English Thoughts:

I didn't really like the plot of the Doctor losing his memory again and so soon after the movie. Felt a little repetitive, but at least is a good concept for a Doctor Who book.

Never did a ever expect that the Doctor would ever hold a bag full of crack. It is sincerely one of the best parts of the book. I just feel a little sorry for past me being unfocused when trying to read earlier.

Also, it's so interesting to look at how big the drug problem was in the 90s and how far my view of the event is. It feels like a footnote, but so many things were impacted by it. (The whole story of GTA: San Andreas is around the drug wars, and one of my biggest impressions of the thing. And having a DW story involving it feels awkwardly matching.)

Going past the whole drug part, i've liked Sam so far. I am looking forward to what will happen to her.

The Eighth Doctor encountering his former selves has been fun, but i'm getting some mixed feelings. I don't know how to express it, just some weird opinions of mine that i still can't define.

Then, i'm also very curious about Lord President Flavia and very intrigued by what the CIA is doing.

When i reached the Third Doctor part, i swear i could hear the characters' voices on my mind. I probably have some kind of favoritism for his era because of how great the whole combination of stuff was. And Delgado continues being the best master. His vingative wife aura is incredible.

I'm having a great read at the moment, and I'm very eager to finish the book soon. And i'm posting at late night again. I probably got a vice of doing this.

Now, I am ending the post with a last question for the people who read until here: I saw half a video on youtube about the 7th Doctor Lungbarrow, and i leaved right before he talked about the book. Should i read it before i continue into the rest of EDA's books? And if so, is any other reading necessary? Or watching his last series already enough?

I wanted to listen more of the 7th doctor main range audios, but felt a little lost with the context when i ended Shadow of the Scourge.

Pensamentos em Português:

Eu não gostei muito do enredo do Doutor perder a memória de novo e tão cedo após o filme. Me pareceu meio repetitivo, mas pelo menos é um bom conceito para um livro de Doctor Who.

Nunca que eu esperaria ver o Doutor acabar carregando uma sacola cheia de crack. E sinceramente é uma das melhores coisas do livro. Só sinto um pouco de dó sobre meu eu do passado, que estava desatento quando foi ler pela primeira vez e perdeu esse momento de ouro.

Também é interessante olhar o quão grande o problema das drogas era nos anos 90, e o quão longe minha visão dos eventos está. Parece uma nota de rodapé, mas teve tanta coisa afetada por isso. (A história do GTA: San Andreas involve a guerra das drogas e é minha maior impressão sobre a coisa. E é estranhamento compatível uma história de DW envolver esse tema.)

Deixando a parte das drogas de lado, estou gostado bastante da Sam. Estou curioso com o que acontece com ela depois.

O Doutor encontrando seus eus do passado está divertido, mas acabei com uns sentimentos misturados. Não sei muito como expressar, só umas opiniões estranhas que não sei definir.

Também estou curioso com a Lorde Presidente Flavia, e bastanre jntrigado com o que a CIA está fazendo.

Quando cheguei na parte do Terceiro Doutor pude jurar que comecei a escutar as vozes dos personagens na cabeça. Provavelmente tenho um favoritismo pela sua era, e também o quão espetacular toda combinação de coisas que tinha. E o Delgado continua sendo o melhor mestre. A aura de esposa traída e vingativa que ele tem é incrível.

Estou tendo uma boa leitura no momento, e bem ansioso pra terminar logo. E estou novamente postando na madruga. Provavelmente eu peguei vicio.

Agora, estou terminando o post com uma última pergunta para as pessoas que leram até aqui: Eu vi metade de um vídeo no YouTube sobre Lungbarrow do 7° Doutor, e saí logo antes de ele falar sobre o livro. Devo lê-lo antes de continuar com o resto do "EDA's"? Se sim, é necessária alguma outra leitura? Ou assistir à sua última temporada ja é suficiente?

Eu queria ouvir mais áudios da main range do 7º Doutor, mas me senti um pouco perdido com o contexto quando terminei Shadow of the Scourge.

--------------------------FIN----------------------------

[brionysea]

I wanted to add on to what you said in this post

https://www.tumblr.com/brionysea/769516782498316289/if-stranger-things-5-comes-out-and-theyre-like

You and the others in tags are so real. You explain perfectly why it just doesn't hit. But also even ignoring how the foreshadowing clearly points towards Mike being the reason, it generally just sounds incredibly predictable. He's the only other person to suspect other than El because of his overt connection to the UD. They're very comfortable sharing stuff about him and the UD in BTS and interviews this season. There really wouldn't be much of a shock. I guarantee you majority of the GA have already considered that idea lol. This isn't to say there won't be a twist related to Will, I just don't think it's what people are thinking. They would be wayyy more discreet and would have given the foreshadowing they surround Mike with to him instead.

I try so hard not to tie things back to Mike but they just do. I also can't ignore the unexplainable supernatural things about him that just aren't addressed for some reason. One way or another, it comes back to him and I think it's intentionally done for a good reason.

I agree! el is the MOST obvious one imo, since the show Says With Its Words 'people think it's el and want to kill her about it' - but at least with el, it... makes sense? she's been THERE from the start, she opened the gate and has always felt a level of guilt and responsibility for everything that happened, which drives her to keep playing the hero and prove she can SAVE people instead. will was just a plot device in s1, and then s2 had to prove that they could pull that off again. s3 he was completely background, and s4 he was banished to the weed van. it would be such a leap to go from there to 'Big Bad' in s5, especially with how sympathetic they've made him

it just wouldn't make sense to me as a direction for will's character. at this point he needs to stop being passive and take a more active role as a hero in order to come into his own, instead of hiding behind el's Plot Magnetism and disappearing into The Horrors and expecting mike to deal with his problems for him (which is very sweet, and mike is very good at it, but he can't fix EVERYTHING for will, forever. mike is already cracking under the pressure - he HAS been, for a LONG time - and will is his own person. at some point he needs to become more than the traumatised queer kid who needs to be saved). most people who want a villain arc for will seem to want it because mike doesn't love him back and his family forgot his birthday and his friends are bad friends to him now, etc., which...? no???? not what's happening? not who will is???????? MAYBE that's vecna's plan to try and get will on his side - messing with people's memories and taking away the important ones so it seems like no one cares about will anymore, like his birthday - but it wouldn't WORK, because will isn't LIKE henry in any of the ways that MATTER. el already turned down 001's offer of world domination, and el and will are The Same. also, with the whole 'forced conforming is the real monster' thing - it CAN'T be will. he NEVER did that.

I don't know if it's because every season takes 5 years to come out or what, but season 1 especially is SO obvious to me with what it's doing with mike. he's just so involved, so intuitive of the upside down and the plot from the JUMP in a way that garners weird looks and a huge argument with lucas, the first realist of the group. mike almost dies from troy blaming him for el's powers. and then mike doesn't change, he keeps knowing all this stuff and being so weird and suspicious, but the show doesn't acknowledge it and acts like it's normal, so the audience takes cues from the characters and also ignores it. it fades into the background, becomes invisible and unimportant, like all the other big questions surrounding mike's character. THAT'S how you pull off a twist

[castleclerics]

brenner lied about dalayrac's nina: how it shows the nina project is not of this timeline/proves it's unreliableness

first let's look at how brenner is telling the story:

ok so he's basically describing the plot of what the audience believes is happening in this opera. however here's what is revealed in it:

so because of nina's descent into insanity, she convinces herself her lover is alive. and her lover was alive the whole time.

here's the definition of psychogenic amnesia:

( ^ off track a little but ok consistent with the "memory gaps" also just thinking about this.. someone else?? referencing henry or something? and this scene is interesting bc el definitely remembers what happened but she didn't want to get two in trouble, at least i think.)

also brenner says that both nina and el "buried the memory"

it also says nina forgets "aspects" of the event. ahem *bodies being different in different shots and different henward jumpsuits*

now, the surface level connection to this would be how brenner at first tries to make el believe that she's the one who committed the massacre before she eventually realizes she never did.

but we all know how fucked the nina project is so let's take it in the other direction. especially how brenner says this:

straight up lie but also what the audience believes until the end of the opera/play

he says this to el's perspective as "if only nina could know her lover is actually dead" but since brenner knows the opera and what's revealed, he means it in a "if only nina knew her lover was never killed"

so nina was techniqually right the whole time.

so if el and nina's stories were to line up and we were to go by what the individuals believes to be true....

el would turn out being right, it would be like nina believes her lover is alive before learning the truth (that hes alive) = el believes she committed a massacre before learning the truth (that in another timeline (or whatever the fuck) she actually did)

also "the truth" is referenced a lot with the nina project but even after el knows the truth that she didn't commit the mass child murder, brenner still says this:

also it's interesting how one says "everyone is just waiting. waiting for it all to be over":

nina is an opera and a play btw.

one more connection i made:

DUUUUDE

"i could not pretend" like how el "focus listens and remembers" all throughout nina and doesn’t deviate from what brenner tells her to do/the story he is showing her of how “henry” did the massacre.

gonna get WAYYY more into it with another post within the next few days (hopefully) bc i've realized a lot of things after first drafting this post about what truly is going on about el "becoming whole" etc.

hope this made sense but my next post will help clear up everything i didn't want this one to be too long. but the next one is gonna be my best nina one yet i feel like i finally have all the pieces in place and everything makes sense to me so stay tuned besties

[bylerconfessions]

i love (/s) how bylers say el has too much screen time when shes the chracter most connected to the villains like idk what u all expected? shes more connected thn any1 else is that’s for sure like she literally grew up with vecna as an older brother and brenner as a dad. ofc shes gunna have alot of screen time. SHE is the culmination of the hnl plot from 1943 to 1986 aka the central plot of the whole show.

personaly i think theyve reused “nancy shoots a gun at a creature and it does nothng. but somehow she never learns or adapts. girlboss!” too many times like at least every time we get el memories stuff its new info. at least els memories drive the actual plot of the show forward.

i get what you mean but the thing about s4 is that it just reused smth from s2's worst episode.

also the nancy slander was so uncalled for lol

[orange-s-mario]

been thinking about building my own dc canon that combines things I like about pre-crisis, Post-crisis, and new 52 canons

I've mainly been focusing on Superman though

Superboy stuff. Kathy Warren, Kral, Mon-El, and Mighto are going to be more important later, but their stints being cared by the Kents are important for later; Mighto gets depowered along with his biological parents but he later learns how to get their powers back. Mighto's parents die and he blames Clark for it? Kral leads to a revolution on Titan, but he still feels guilty over almost betraying Superboy, and doesn't want any statues honoring him. Mon-El basically stays the same as the original story, and is after Mighto were the scars are still fresh. Kathy goes on to become a head scientist at the DNA Project/Cadmus - in this continuity she creates Matrix working with Lex, who is also here while coming up with plots to destroy Superman (neither of them know about the other's connection to Clark). Lex feels a kinship with Kathy and does learn about some aspects of her backstory, noticing parallels with Lena.

Pete finds out Clark is Superman and Lana suspects

The legion stuff happens and Kid Clark meets Kara for the first time. Despite their memory erasure of her, this leaves a subconscious imprint on Clark

Pa Kent dies before Kal leaves to college.

Lana and Pete date for a while, but find out they're incompatible with each other; Lana leaves to Europe

Matrix is made by Cadmus but escapes and this leads to her being adopted by Martha. Clark designs a costume for Matrix after a bit of time where Matrix starts heroing so that she can hide her identity without resorting to invisibility. when they actually have time together. Martha dies while Clark is off somewhere else so Clark doesn't get to hear Martha's last words. Matrix does.

Clark dates Lori during college.

Lana marries in Europe (this ends in tragedy)

Pete marries someone else and has a son named John

Clark reveals to the world the existence of Superman after a bit more of world travels; Lori breaks up with him

Daily Planet shenanigans

Tommy is the first kid that Superman adopts, but he then gives him up to another couple who he sets up for. He still checks up on Tommy occasionally.

Jimmy is the second kid he adopts but the whole Mark Olsen and Hal Rand stuff happens soon after as well as the Sun/Son messup leading to Mark reappearing in Jimmy's life. Hal and Mark marry soon after.

Clark finds out about Kandor

Ar-Val happens while Matrix is busy doing something else

Clark decides he isn't a good dad so the orphanage origin for Kara is the one. Matrix changes her superhero name from Supergirl to Matrix. The Linda and Kara stuff happen simultaneously (?). Kara's parents are named after the n52 ones but take more after the Pre-crisis ones so there's Kara's dead brother.

Clark becomes a single father of two, due to Johny and Gregor's dads' previous arrangements with Clark, he didn't have time to discuss his parenting skills with them

johny kirk and gregor Nagy. Johny gets depowered. Gregor dies but comes back as a dust phantom. Johny gets jealous since Gregor has powers; Gregor's all like at least you can feel things.

Superman is still closed off to Johny before adopting Gregor, so it's actually Gregor who tells Johny that Clark is Superman.

Lana dates Clark after Lois gets tired of Clark not telling her he's superman (she's pretty sure he's Clark)

Kandor is grown into Rokyn

Lexor is destroyed but unlike in the original story, Lex Jr survives (he is the oldest of the Lex kids here...)

The John Ross plot stuff happens

Crisis-like event happens; Kara dies and she is buried on Rokyn; Ar-Val's statue is also placed here (unless I bring him into play earlier...). Clark and Lana break up

A lot of the Post-crisis stuff happens. When Death rolls around, the reign of the Supermen starts. Kon does not get taken to Smallville but some of the more unique supporting cast are moved to the Wild Lands, where he lives after Hawaii. Kathy and Jimmy are also important figures in Kon's life.

Lois and Clark marry, John and Lana get engaged

Kara is brought back to life.

Ariella exists somehow, she is taken care of by Matrix and Linda

Clark dies again (changed from N52 death) causing Lois, Lana, and Kenan to get powers, After he is brought back; Lois gets depowered, Lana keeps some of her power, and Kenan stays unchanged.

WIP, subject to change after I read more comics,

[stormgated]

onto valencia part 2… in light of The Mystery Plot Point i keep talking about. here’s a dump of my recent thoughts about aquila, killian and his story.

once again a cut because 1.) essay and 2.) spoiler for a game that came out in 2013

So the plot point I speak of is part of Aquila’s main quest in order to get the map piece. You visit the cave of mysteries and have five entire years of your memories removed. What sticks out to me is that Bonnie says you’ll forget your parents, which, in my interpretation, is the pirate’s driving force in seeking out El Dorado. I mean, yeah, stopping the Armada is important too but that gives your character a personal motive.

And Aquila decides “sacrifice your memory to find the map and forget your whole motive”. And I just wonder what goes through the pirate’s head when they hear that! Their crew is outraged, especially Bonnie since family is super important to her, but how does the pirate feel? I’d love to hear other’s thoughts about this.

Onto what this means for Killian. He lost his parents when he was twelve, so five years wouldn’t be so bad, right? He has seven more happy years with them, yeah?

Not entirely. I take this quest as the Mysteries taking important memories. For Killian, that’s ages 7-12. Meaning he’s going to forget sailing the skyways with them, coming out to them as trans, and the day that they died. Killian constantly has nightmares of them dying, he saw it happen. This means he’s going to forget who the people he sees dying in his dreams are. He’s going to remember killing Deacon and avenging them, but he’s not going to remember who he was avenging. And I think that’s gonna mess him up so bad. It’s let resetting a lot of progress and what healing he’s managed to do.

It’s stealing another part of his childhood and it’s so so cruel. Gaspard promises to keep their memory alive and all but it’s not the same. I doubt the crew would have the heart to reveal the truth to Killian too, like imagine having to tell someone that “Oh those people you see dying in your nightmares? Those are your parents, you don’t remember who they are but you remember their brutal death.”

It’s so fucked up to me and I just wish it was addressed at least one more time before the end of Aquila. Maybe Valencia 2 will deliver but I don’t have high hopes.

[conflictofthemind]

Your recent post about electromagnetism was great, but I want to know your theories on how time travel will play into the plot of season 5. I hope they won't use time travel to "fix the past" and rewrite the timeline (although I doubt that will happen).

Oh man I have so many thoughts. This is a whole can of worms to open up (which I will be doing eventually). But yes I agree with you 100%, I don’t think it will end in them rewriting the timeline. Or if they do, it will be through a creation of a new one and all of the characters will still be able to retain their previous memories. There still needs to be lasting consequences for every action, and the impacts of each characters’ decisions plus the entire story should stay with them.

Right now the main pet project that I’ve been working on gradually is something I’ve been calling the “play theory” (kind of a shit title); basically that Melvin is what’s dooming the narrative and causing the main characters to be trapped inside of a time loop. I’ll explain it condensed here but the post I have cooking is already 6 pages at least.

It first came from that whole Melvin “star-crossed lovers” “Romeo and Juliet” thing, and lines within the TFS play that is… also inspired itself by another “star-crossed doomed” lovers play. There are so many weird meta layers to it all.

There’s multiple 4th wall breaks in TFS where Henry tries to escape the theatre and seems to be aware he is performing on a stage. There’s also a very pointed dialogue which is where I finally started making this into a fully fledged theory:

“It’s a sad song, I like the gay ones best”.

“It doesn’t have to be sad, you never know the ending until it’s sung all the way through”.

“Then let’s make it a gay one”.

“Sing your own ending”.

And what a weird theme to choose, because the answer “in the play” is actually no, it can’t. TFS is a sad song, a continuation of the time loop. A play. But that surely won’t be the case for Stranger Things, because we’ve been told that Will’s superpower is his heart and he gets a happy ending.

As Mike performs his “love” for the audience, the name Montague (for Romeo Montague) appears behind him.

Basically, the characters are conforming to the pre-written roles they have already been assigned to (by society) and are forced to enact, and re-enact, a tragedy of two doomed lovers. The curtain on a play closes but the next night the story begins all over again, to a new audience, always with the same ending. Like a time loop. Like a never ending story.

Mike’s decision to keep playing the role of Romeo to El’s Juliet will result in Will beginning the time loop. So Will starts the time loop, and I expect Mike will be the one to finally break them out of it.

[0aurelion-sol0]

So much to say, so little time... & motivation. X)

My thoughts on Will Byers has powers has widened over the years in a way that includes so much possibilities now that I don't know which one could come into fruition.

There's one particular outcome that I think would be interesting and that nobody has been talking about, at least to my knowledge, it's a Matrix type of situation which I think could explain some events back in Season 1 that doesn't fit with what we know of ST's rules (though they are fluid and subject to change in the show, let's not lie). I'll elaborate in a post right after that soon.

One outcome that I know will not happen is El or Henry type of powers, as in the same powers as them, at least most of them, I know he doesn't have those ones & should not.

But guys, the question is not "does Will have powers ?" Because he already has abilities anyway (Neck-sense, Now Memories & True Sight though that particular ability might be dormant since he isn't as directly connected to the UD as he was back in S2) and he had some of them or others before even being connected to the vines in S1 and even having a part of the Mind Flayer inside of him in S2, the REAL question is what exactly are those abilities and what can or could he do if he were to start training and/or learning more about them ? Additionally, where do they come from too ?

As for "Sorcerer", the title could mean many things and anyone; I do not know why but when I look at that title, it fees vindictive. Like someone is saying it to someone else but it's not used in a nice way. It could also be a Satanic Panic thing, as well as a codename for an object or a protocol. Or even the name of an experiment.

I wouldn't be surprised if it could relate to Will in some way given he is going to be the focus point or one of the focus points of S5 if you prefer, but it could be not something about a specific character like Will, El or Henry but something else entirely that's not a person.

It is episode 4 and usually, the end of episode 3 and episode 4 as a whole, finishes laying out the whole plot and shows us what the emotional story beats of the season are going to be. "The Body", "The Pollywog and Will The Wise", "The Case of the Missing Lifeguard", "The Monster and the Superhero + Dear Billy" and now, "Sorcerer".

No offence to y'all Bylers but Sorcerer is a whole different class from Wizard or Cleric in D&D

[jeroidk]

Maybe it's because i finished vol.2 just like an hour ago and because i feel empty inside and not in a good way but

Even without the queerbaiting, i feel like this episodes were just awful.

Mike had a total of 0 development, 0 depth. Actually, i feel like they fucked up the development he had in the previous seasons and vol.1

His life started when he met El in the woods? Did they really just reduced him to Eleven's love interest when he used to be the main character? When he had the most beautiful friendship with Will in s1-s2?

Mike is his own whole person. "My life started when i met you" my ass. What happened to "you said yes. It was the best thing i've ever done"???? Talk about ruining a character.

And they didn't even gave us an explanation as to why he was acting like an asshole? All of that just because he couldn't say "i love you" to El because of no reason at all? Was the "because what if they don't like the truth?" just for nothing?

And don't even get me started on the painting reveal. It had SO much potential, it could have been such an important moment for both Mike and Will's development but it didn't do anything. Noah gave such an amazing performance with the crying and the speech but it lead to nothing. Will is just the "sad gay in love with his best friend" trope. At least he had a little beautiful moment with Jonathan, so i guess that's something.

But they didn't even adressed Will's sexuality at all. It was kept in the subtext. We all know Will is gay but they didn't commit to his plot line. I'm not even asking about a full-on coming out scene for various reasons but they could have made a scene like when Robin came out to Steve. She didn't need to say "i'm a lesbian" but the message was there, loud and clear. But no, Will didn't deserve that apparently, even when that's all the plot line he had this season because he keeps getting pushed to the side. HE USED TO BE A MAIN CHARACTER. I HATE THIS.

And his cute speech to Mike was used for Mileven? Just so Mike could say "i love you" to her? It's that all gay people can expect when it comes to representation in a mainstream show? To be used to build a hetero couple that's been falling for 2 seasons?

And the Stancy plot line lead to nothing. And Jancy is still just there, existing, slowly losing all that made them super likeable in the first seasons.

And they killed Max, but now El has healing powers? What the fuck was that, it felt so deux-ex-machina. Also, i'm sorry if some of you found it good, but the whole piggyback felt so anticlimatic to me. Why was there a memory from little max??? It didn't serve any purpose???

And we had this villain who can literally feed on people's trauma, which was the most awesome scenario to reveal what's been going on inside Mike's head, but no, all we had was just another epic fight between El and the big bad, like every season.

What a waste of time.

[blxssom-221]

The Black Phone x Stranger Things?

For the love of god I swear I’m THIS 👌 close to writing a crossover fic between The Black Phone and Stranger Things. Like imagine:

The whole plot in the movie still happened. Finney and Gwen are traumatized af cause obvious reasons and their dad thought it’ll be a good idea for a fresh start, so they move to the next town over which happens to be Hawkins

And yk they’re trying to move on, trying to get past what happened to them but Finney can’t easily do that. He keeps thinking about all those boys who never stood a chance, those boys who, in death, helped him survive and especially Robin

So like in ST universe it’s around the start of season 2 or before it but yk Will is back and everything

And also the start of the kidnapping in TBP went on around the same time when Eleven opened the gate

Ok so what most people don’t know about Will is that he wasn’t alone in the upside down. He was for the first few days but then this kid appeared

He looked scared, traumatized and believed he died and somehow went to hell. But to Will, it’s hope and vague happiness because he’s not alone anymore and if someone also managed to get into this strange world then they can both find a way out

Will learned that the boy’s name was Griffin. They’d been in the upside down together for about a month now before another boy came. Then another, then another, then another

He learned all their names to be Billy, Bruce, Vance, and Robin and Will also learned that they all died in the exact same place and murdered by the exact same person. The days blurred together and the boys are having a hard time distinguishing reality from illusion and what’s worse is that their memory seems to be getting fuzzier

One day they found the replica of the basement in the upside down. There they saw the black phone. Feeling compelled Bruce grabbed the phone. They don’t know how it happened but Finney picked up the phone

They learned that Finney got kidnapped and one by one the boys gave Finney all he needed to survive. Then it’s over. The Grabber was dead and the boys are still in the upside down

At this point Will is starting to think that he died in his world too but just couldn’t remember it. Despite the different range of personalities between the 6 of them, the group worked out and stayed together. Little did they know that they only way they survived was cause of Will’s incessant humming of his favorite song much to Vance’s annoyance

And when Will got out, Griffin continued that habit on because they’re all not sure whether Will made it or not and at least this way they can pretend he’s still there with them

So Will came back and he can’t stop thinking about those boys. He wants, needs, to rescue them too but everyone is acting sensitive and overprotective around him so he can’t get the chance to tell them about the boys. Instead he does his own research. He never got their last names but it seemed that their case was popular enough that he didn’t have too much of a hard time learning about them

And that’s when he learned about the new kid Finney. The same Finney who the boys talked about

So Will approached him and Finney listened, even better he believed him especially since Will gave him hope of seeing Robin and the others again

Will also told Finney about El and how her powers helped bring him back, in turn, Finney told him about his sister Gwen who’s dreams helped find him and The Grabber’s victims

In this AU Finney (ability to communicate with spirits/ghosts etc.) and Gwen (prophetic dreams) powers came from their mom so they’re all born with it kind of like Vecna

So through them, they were able to see the boys in the upside down but they find that they have little time because demogorgans are hunting them down

So through the power of friendship and the mother gate and supernatural abilities of Finney and Gwen, the boys were able to be brought back to their bodies in a perfect state (maybe a little traumatized)

Gwen and El would be such great friends! Imagine them learning more about their powers together and bonding over that

Will and Finney are besties and together they pine and maul over their unrequited love for their best friends

Steve adopts 6 more kids

Vance and Billy H. clash bcs of how similar they are

Billy getting annoyed that there’s another Billy and everyone is calling him Hargrove instead

Erica and Gwen loves shitting on their brothers (but in a lovingly way)

Griffin and Billy are secretly menaces to society

Vance secretly admires Nancy and wants her to teach him how to use a gun. No one lets him

TBP boys often get nightmares about what the grabber did to them especially Griffin and Vance

I’m still not sure if I want a character redemption for Billy H. and have him be a tsundere overprotective bro to Max and have an enemies to begrudgingly friends to lovers trope with Steve….hmmm maybe

Aaaaand there’s the writers block. That’s all I got