#its a different way to think about andrew and kevin's relationship

[lucky-slice]

I see the vision and I adore it.

I wouldn't say its a one to one because they're all very different characters, but yeah - there's something in there about protecting and being protected. Something about promises.

Kevin exists in a protective role for Jean, not because he can necessarily prevent physical harm, but because he protects Jean's strength to live. He makes Jean promise not to end his life and in turn implicitly promises to not let him do so.

Andrew's protection of Kevin presents more physically, but even so - their deal was much more about Andrew's ability to protect Kevin from himself. He would stop Kevin from going back to Riko. He supplies him with a sense of stability that Kevin would drive himself to ruin without.

You could even draw parallels between the breaking of these respective promises. There's multiple ways people have interpreted the choking incident (and I'm not gonna ramble on your post about that), but from my perspective, the choking incident is a representation of Andrew placing something above his promise to Kevin. You can argue whether or not this "breaks the deal", but it's not hard to draw a parallel between the shifting of that dynamic and the shifting in Kevin and Jean's dynamic.

Fun stuff to think about.

is it just me. or is kevin to jean what andrew is to kevin

[inafieldofstarflowers]

(@tessasilverswan it was sooo dangerous of you to enable me to talk about this scene. I swear I did not mean for this to get so long & so I added a little summary.)

Chapter seven of The Raven King is truly banger after banger, specifically in terms of three important conversations Neil has: there are his post-banquet conversations with Wymack and Kevin, and then—the one I want to focus on—his conversation with Nicky in the library. As a whole, I would argue that this chapter is a turning point for Neil. He already decided not to run, back when Andrew gave him the key, but this is the moment he’s deciding to be a Fox, and to be Neil Josten. His conversation with Kevin is a huge part of this, of course—it’s one of my favorite parts of the series as a whole, because it’s such an interesting insight into Kevin as a character—but his conversation with Nicky is both incredibly informative and  foundational to a lot of the choices Neil makes in the future, but with the exception of a few moments (“Some of the strongest people I’ve known are women” is forever iconic, and also a moment of silence for Nicky Hemmick absolutely failing to clock the fact that his cousin is gay. rip.), it’s not really discussed outside of its work in establishing the pre-series timeline for the cousins, but there’s. So much there.  So, in summary:

This conversation has some truly incredible lines. Nora did not hold back with it.

The details about Aaron & Nicky in this conversation are crucial to understanding how they interact with others—and, more specifically, with each other

This conversation is where Neil starts to understand both the root of the division between Andrew and Aaron and the contribution Aaron and Katelyn’s relationship has to that division, and as a result, plants the seeds for his eventual plan of therapy/using Katelyn to manipulate Aaron

Neil, freshly resolved not to run, is confronted with the idea of a future

Neil, freshly confronted with the idea of a future, is also confronted with the idea that he needs to hold onto something other than Exy (& begins to realize that he has already, unintentionally, begun to do so)

The longer version:

The conversation can easily be divided into two distinct parts: the first of which is a discussion of the twins & their relationship, sparked by Nicky commenting on Aaron and Katelyn, who are standing together a bit away from the table where Nicky and Neil are sitting. It’s significant that Nicky is the one who presses the topic, because it emphasizes that, until this point, Neil doesn’t see any reason that Aaron’s relationship would be worth noticing, even thinking that “his review was more important than something as trivial as Aaron’s maybe-relationship.” While Neil arguably never starts seeing Aaron’s relationship as anything other than trivial, this conversation is the first time he understands its role in the balancing act Aaron and Andrew are performing, and, in a way, the impetus for his later decision to use it as ammunition in trying to reunite them.

It’s also immediately apparent that Nicky and Neil have incredibly different perspectives on the events Nicky is about to relate: Neil, who has been getting closer to Andrew, listens to the story with him in mind, working out potential motivations for him, while Nicky relates them largely from Aaron’s perspective—it’s clear that Aaron has talked to him about these events and Andrew hasn’t, given that he’s able to relate events directly from Aaron’s perspective but can only speculate on Andrew’s thoughts/reasoning. The fact that Nicky can so neatly outline the series of events—most of which he wasn’t present for—suggests that the put a great deal of effort into piecing together what, exactly, got the twins to this place (which, in my opinion, makes the exchange in TKM in which Aaron accuses him of siding with Neil and he comments “It’s not like you’ve ever let me take your [side]” sooo interesting. But I digress.).

This half of the conversation also has two main parts: an explanation of everything leading up to the car crash and the crash/its fallout. This is the most detail that we’ve gotten about the twins’ past, and as he’s telling the story, Neil notes that Nicky’s facade of cheer has fallen away, leaving a humorless smile. I think this is maybe the most genuine we ever see Nicky: he’s performing less than he does around pretty much anyone else, perhaps because he’s been made a part of the family, but isn’t someone Nicky feels responsibility for in the way he does for the twins. Nicky opens with the revelation that Tilda put both twins in the system at first, and the dialogue emphasizes the sheer luck involved in which twin went where: they don’t know Tilda’s reasoning, but Nicky’s summarizes it pretty well in saying that “they each had a fifty-fifty chance of getting screwed, and that, in the end, they “both got the short end of the stick.” It’s one of the most concise descriptions of the way the twins’ relationship was doomed from the start: no matter which direction things had gone, this would always have been a wedge driven between the two of them.

What follows is a depiction of Aaron’s very-much-not-ideal™ childhood, which amounts to pretty textbook neglect (Tilda apparently “tried as hard as she could not to deal with Aaron at all”) until he learned about Andrew, which is “when Aaron says she started getting angry instead of just neglectful.” Nicky says that “Finding Andrew again was a turning point for Aaron in all the worst ways,” which is a brutal statement, but critical to understanding what I would argue is a big part of Aaron’s issue with Andrew: when he learned about his brother, everything fell apart for him, and yet he still tried to reach out to Andrew, and Andrew rejected him (for no reason, as far as he could tell, even though we learn why Andrew did so later). In general, we learn a lot about Aaron here, and specifically his relationship with Tilda, but that’s a separate post, and it can be pretty effectively summarized by saying that, and this point, Aaron’s life was Really Bad. Nicky mentions his mom’s concern about Aaron—so strong that she wrote to Nicky in Germany—and paired with his later statement that he “should have tried harder” with Aaron, it’s clear that part of Nicky’s choice to return & try to help the twins reunite was a result of misplaced guilt. (As a side note, I think Maria’s concern for Aaron and the fact that she at least sort of stayed in touch with Nicky while he was in Germany does a lot to explain why he has hope/any desire to try to restore that relationship: they’re threads of hope that she cares, and Nicky is clinging to them.)

At this point, we move into a discussion of the car crash, which is the clearest example of the Nicky & Aaron vs. Neil & Andrew division. Ironically, this is also maybe the only time Neil is a true Aaron Understander, because Nicky’s comments about Aaron’s relationship with Tilda (“It’s not like Aaron liked her, but she was his mother, you know? And Aaron never got to fix things with her, never got to understand why she was so messed up or why she messed them up so bad.”) are incredibly similar to his feelings about Mary, but that’s nevertheless not enough to stop him from suggesting Andrew acted “to protect Aaron.” 

In the end, Nicky and Neil kind of dance around the truth of the matter, which is that Andrew did act as he did in order to protect Aaron, but that that doesn’t mean Aaron can’t/shouldn’t be angry about it. What they’re exactly correct about, on the other hand, is that this is a big problem, and I would argue that it is here that the seeds of Neil’s therapy plan are planted. He sees the problem (“I’m guessing they’ve never talked about how she died”) and Nicky agrees that there’s no solution in sight as things stand (“They won’t even talk about the little things. I don’t see them having a belated heart-to-heart about Andrew’s intentions anytime soon”), and so he forces a situation where the twins have to address it—and, by doing so, he helps Nicky in his efforts to fix their relationship, which even Nicky says he’s realized he can’t do on his own.

*A moment of silence for Nicky truly believing Andrew and Renee were a thing*

At this point, we transition into the second half of the conversation, which is essentially Nicky’s manifesto on the importance of love, kicked off by the incredible line  “You can love Exy all you want, but it’s never gonna love you back” and Neil’s absolutely on-brand response of “So?” Neil immediately tries to backtrack, realizing that he does not want to have this conversation, and Nicky’s refusal to let it go is one of the few times in the series that I think Nicky’s pushiness is a good thing: this is a conversation Neil needs to have, and he is just not going to do it on his own. (Also, “Nicky snatched his math pamphlet off the desk and dropped it on the ground by his chair” is so funny to me because it’s so needlessly dramatic. I love him.) 

It’s so hard for me not to just quote this whole conversation, because Nicky truly rolls out banger after banger: after this opening, for example, he hits Neil with “Listen up. There’s obsession and there’s dysfunction, You can’t make Exy your end-all-be-all. This won’t last forever, okay? You’ll shine bright, then you’ll retire, and then what? You gonna spend the rest of your life at home alone with all your trophies?” It’s important to me that Nicky isn’t discrediting Exy as a route for Neil’s future: he’s seen how much Neil loves it, and he recognizes that it would be pointless to try to argue that Neil should care less about it. Instead, he’s pushing Neil to recognize that he needs something in addition to Exy in order to live a truly full life.

I think it’s important at this point to pause and consider that Neil has been having a bit of a crisis since the banquet. Earlier in the chapter, Neil is reflecting on the Foxes and how “they were piecing Neil together and building a real person around all of his lies. They found the parts of him no disguise could change. Nothing they were learning would change this year’s outcome” (ie: his impending death) “or tell them who he really was, but it was frightening nonetheless. Luckily midterms were coming up, so Neil could use studying as an excuse to slowly pull back out of their reach.” In this moment, Nicky is directly refusing to let Neil use midterms as an excuse to pull away and avoid a conversation about his future that Nicky can tell he needs to have, as well as forcing Neil to confront the idea of the future he’s already decided doesn’t exist, and I think that Neil is terrified & made deeply uncomfortable by that idea, which is why he backpedals so hard. After the banquet, Neil told Kevin “I want to be Neil Josten. I want to be a Fox,” and the combination of the Foxes making Neil Josten real and Nicky’s focus on his future are proving that those words might mean more than Neil ever thought they could.

*An interlude to honor “Some of the strongest people I’ve known are women.” Neil Josten I love you. Imagine being Nicky Hemmick in this moment: this kid has asked why you don’t like women and answers your attempt to explain concisely by saying this. 10/10*

I won’t get into it too much here, because I’ve already discussed it, but Nicky continues to let his usual mask fall (“Nicky’s smile was slow and pleased…it was a more reserved expression than Neil usually saw on his face.”) and I think that this continued sincerity is part of why Neil finds himself unable to just ignore what Nicky’s saying. 

This is where we get into Nicky’s past, which is so fun! So fresh! If it wasn’t already evident that Luther and Maria suck, it’s made clear as Nicky describes their responses to him coming out, and his description of the conversion camp ( “I spent a year learning that I was infected by a disgusting idea from the devil, that I was a living test for every other good Christian on the planet. They tried using God to shame me into being straight”) is so tough. This offers a lot of insight into why Nicky is the way he is: his openness is a pretty direct response to his parents’ lack of openness, but in his efforts to not be like them, he’s swung hard in the opposite direction and is often far too pushy about it. As a whole, this passage is genuinely one of the best depictions of religious guilt I’ve ever read—“It didn’t work. For a while I wished it did” and Nicky’s descriptions of feeling alternately abandoned by God and like he betrayed God are so grounded in reality and they make him feel so much more rounded as a character (which, again, I could say sooo much more about than I want to in this already long post). The whole description of Nicky’s mindset is interwoven with a heavy desperation and despair, which makes the fact that it was Nicky’s German teacher who “knew [he] was close to the edge,” while his parents were just “so proud of [him] for [his] so-called recovery” even more jarring: it emphasizes how willingly obtuse Luther and Maria both are, something we already saw in the fact that Aaron successfully hid evidence of Tilda’s abuse from them for years, and something which we see the worst example of later, when Luther refuses to take Andrew seriously and cries “misunderstanding” when Andrew tells him about Drake. (Also side note: shoutout to Nicky’s German teacher. She and Coach Hernandez are really out there looking out for their kids.)

“‘Erik Klose,’ Nicky said, sounding it out like he was saying it for the first time.” I don’t actually have anything to say about this line. It’s just really cute. I do, however, have a lot to say about what follows: “That’s what love is about, see? That’s why Exy isn’t ever going to be enough, not for you or Andrew or anyone. It can’t hold you up, and it won’t make you a stronger or better person.” This is arguably the thesis of this half of the conversation, and it stands in stark contrast to the flippancy and crudeness with which Nicky typically approaches the topic of love. Nicky is, or course, talking about romantic love here, but I think it’s pretty applicable to the idea of love in general, and that having a support system is important—which, again, is likely to hit home with Neil, who has begun to realize that he does, in fact, have one with the Foxes, and has begun to try to pull back. That Nicky is there, saying this to him, is unavoidable evidence that, just like he’s chosen the Foxes, they’ve chosen him, and they’re not going to just let go. This realization is followed by THE “Mary’s parenting kinda fucked Neil up, huh?” quote, in which he outlines a bunch of warnings she gave him on the dangers of letting people in, which is a Whole Lot, and is finally enough to push Neil to end the conversation, at which point we get the great exchange: “At least promise me you’ll think about it?” “Promise,” Neil said. “You are such an unrepentant liar.” 

I love Nicky for dragging this promise out of him even though he absolutely doesn’t believe it’s true, and even though Neil does, in fact, prove him right by immediately trying to forget about the conversation, an effort which is only briefly successful, because he starts thinking about it—and specifically about what Nicky said about Erik—while watching Andrew during practice. This moment is the culmination of the tension between Mary’s instructions & Neil’s decision to first join and then stay with the Foxes that’s been building over this chapter. Specifically, Neil’s instinctual thought that “There was only one person in the world strong enough for all of Neil’s problems, and she was dead now” is countered by the realization that “he’d divided his secrets between Kevin and Andrew,” and that Andrew specifically had “nodded in the face of it and told Neil to stay.” In spite of this realization, he remains avoidant as hell and immediately thinks “that didn’t count, because Andrew was Andrew, and this was definitely the last turn he needed his thoughts to take,” which emphasizes that, even though he’s stepped away from his mother’s rules, he can’t quite let them go yet—or, perhaps, can’t acknowledge that he has already done so. The final line of the chapter, however—that Neil “vowed never to listen to Nicky again”—emphasizes that this has had an impact on him—otherwise, he wouldn’t be worried about what else Nicky would say if given the chance.

[mutopians]

follow up to my last post because ive spent way too long thinking about this since 1-800-gotham suddenly unlocked the batman obsession i had somehow managed to lock up for several years

no one asked for this. but. funny aftg/batfam crossover fics someone else should write so i don't have to

neil's uncle gets into some shit with jason during his red hood days. jason shows up as the red hood and badgers neil about it. (don't ask me the reason i don't know)

andrew had a foster family in crime alley. jason and him met when they were kids. drama ensues when they meet again years later.

jeremy gets dragged to a gala for his family. he ends up meeting the waynes. dick and him really hit it off because they've got some parallels with their characterizations

jeremy can't take jean to his team right away and calls in a favor with dick, or wymack calls in a favor with bruce who he knows and approves of for some reason, and jean ends up getting adopted by the waynes. i kept trying to imagine him with jason but honestly he's a black haired blue-eyed adjacent orphan there was only one man he'd end up with and its bruce. (ive thought way too much on this one to the point it might need a separate post HELP)

dan used to do sex work in gotham's crime alley. she interacts with red hood over a few different periods of time.

jason and kevin bonding over literature and history at some point because they go hand-in-hand

steph, cass, and renee in a room together. that's it. that's the post. i want to see what they'd do when left up to their own devices. we can throw dan in for bonus points

mamma mia plot where kevin can't figure out if wymack or bruce was his dad. hilarity ensues

al ghuls somehow buy jean (and possibly neil and kevin) from the moriyamas. talia takes one look at jean and co and sends them off to gotham with damian. you could probably make an argument for any of them staying with the al ghuls but this is a pretty funny explanation for them getting taken in by the waynes

andrew gets fostered by a family in gotham two, electric boogaloo, but this time it's the waynes. chaos, trauma, and drama ensues depending on when exactly this takes place and what his relationship with aaron is then, if they've even met yet.

the really funny part is that all of these, save for probably the last two, could all happen in the SAME exact fic, just from POVs and different chapters

[coldsaturn]

I finished my reread of TKM (in its Italian translation, for a change) in preparation for TGR, and I have thoughts

There's something inherently addictive about a character knowing they're on a countdown and trying to make the most of the time they still have

"I didn't tell her." They were the only two in the car, but it took Neil a moment to realize he was being addressed. He glanced over at Aaron, but Aaron was gazing out the passenger window. "Neither did I," Neil said. "She asked you about Andrew." It wasn't a question, but Neil said, "Yes. You too?" "She doesn't ask me anything anymore," Aaron said. "She knows there's no point. I haven't ever said a word to her." //Of course they hate each other so much, they're way more similar than they're comfortable with

Aaron, Matt, Renee, Wymack, e Andrew are all like "should we tell Neil he's now in a relationship or?" but they all decide to leave Neil in his painful obliviousness for the same reason. The fact that it will be Roland to tell him will forever be iconic.

On the translation for "Every inch of you," Andrew said. "That doesn't mean I wouldn't blow you." I forgive the translator every past mistake. That line got me like a freight train in the face.

"Whatever Kevin saw on Neil's face, it was enough to kill his curiosity. Kevin slowly closed his mouth, withdrew his hand, and went back to drinking" // Kevin in this scene

Andrew keeps on being hilarious even unmedicated.

"Cool it," Ricky warned them, with his hands out toward both of them. "We've got enough trouble to deal with right now without your bullshit." // I want a book about him

The whump level of attention Neil gets starting from his Evermore stay and onward is absolutely delicious.

Neil spends the night with Kevin watching Exy matches, then Nicky tries to get Neil to go for ice cream and Neil is about to say no when he sees Andrew and suddenly he's all existential "Exy can't be everything" lmao

Andrew going against Kevin multiple times to favor Neil is my new kink

"I don't want to be that person anymore. I want to go back for you." // Andrew has five (5) people he'd save in a zombie apocalypse. That's an entirely respectable number of people to care for that intensely. Neil chose one and one only.

It's almost impossible to comment anything once we start snowballing toward the end because that would require putting the book down, but I'll make an effort: Andrew's fierceness is heartbreaking. He threatens people left and right and most of the Foxes around him treat him like he's an immortal, vengeful god. Kevin trusts him to protect him from Riko, Neil hilariously trusted him to protect him from Riko and the mafia behind him. Riko himself reacts to him with caution like he's dealing with a rabid dog that might just be faster than a gun drawn in self-defense. Andrew threatens the FBI and Abby, and it's like he genuinely thinks he can win against multiple armed and trained adults. But he's not invincible. He's so far from that it's painful. He can be overpowered, his strength is proportional to his body, he has been brought down again and again. Hes' just a dude. But so many around Andrew treat him like his strength is a bottomless well, for better or worse, and I wonder what his self-confidence would be if he didn’t receive so often positive feedback on his ability to take everything and everyone down with him. I don’t think he’s even aware of it, but I’m glad it’s there nonetheless.

"She taught Coach Exy," Neil reminded him. "And what, he didn't notice that he knocked her up?" Aaron asked. // AARON lmao

Still can't believe Andreil got off on Kevin's drama queen tattoo and didn't even bother trying to hide it

Still can’t believe Andreil had a full on makeout session at Evermore. Somewhere, in a parallel universe, dark Andreil from the perfect court felt a tremor in the force

Reading my bound trilogy gives the pace of the entire work a completely different feeling. This truly is one single story, and not three separate books. Once you feel them being whole in your hands, without boundaries between one and the other, you can truly appreciate the avalanche that this story is. You start slowly with all the puzzle pieces around you and then accelerate until you reach the last 200 pages where you can't even find time to breathe, the entire narrative a single unified crescendo built on the 500 pages that came before.

Neil is an amazing protagonist, but he could have been unsufferable so easily if Nora hadn't done such a good job of keeping him an active character with a mountain of agency. The things that happen to him are obnoxiously incredible, but he never becomes the cliché passive protagonist bound by plot because they have nothing of their own to keep themselves upright. Everything that happens to him he reacts to with equal if not more force; hell, half of what happens he instigates with his own hands. So many books give you an empty protagonist meant to be the stand-in for the audience, just an empty shell so the reader can project onto them and fantasize about a different reality. Neil is complex, absurd, uncomfortable, and doesn't care if you relate to him or not. As a reader you are a fly on the wall and are treated as such. Neil isn’t here to make you feel good about yourself.

Insane rereadability rate. Read one book per day and I didn't even feel it, I already miss it and want to go back to the beginning to ride the roller coaster again. I'm a decade older than when I read this trilogy the first time, but these books are still a dopamine injection straight into my eyeballs.

[kingofcups]

found this in my drafts enjoy

Monsters - Upperclasmen things that I want to talk about more

Aaron/Dan - Both of whom grew in absolutely shitty situations but I find interesting is how they respond to their upbrings. Both of them are desperate to make something of themselves Dan through the foxes and Aaron through becoming a doctor. But like they both respond very differently to those backgrounds. Dan despite being an ex-stripper seems distinctly unashamed whereas Aaron was literally against joining the foxes bc he didn't want anyone to know about his background and be associated with the foxes. Both them fall in love with someone Matt&Katelyn respectively and hate it bc it goes against their life plan. Dan falling for Matt against all odds, Aaron loving Katelyn despite Andrew. Dan leaving behind her shitty aunt and never seeking with her again vs Aaron still loving Tilda and agreeing to the deal with Andrew even though he hates it bc he wants Andrew around. That bit where Neil says Aaron survived this long on "Willpower and Desperation" fits pre-canon Dan so well.

Matt/Andrew - A lot of people focus on them both being SA surviors which is true but I think how they view themselves have a lot similarties as well. Andrew only living to protect other people when we see in canon andrew defining himself by being a protector vs Matt literally being born to "fix" his parents divorce and his drug addiction starting as a way to fix his relationship with with his dad like theres something there!!

Allison/Nicky - Them both having issues with boundaries bc boundaries/rules have been used against them their whole live. Luther and Maria restricting Nicky's sexuality, personality, who he is and sending him to conversion camp. Allison developing an eating disorder to keep up with her parents demands and later getting cut off when she she doesn't listen to their rules, etc. They both have their own masks that they use to test people and as a coping mechanism. Allison's whole catty bitch nothing affects me act bc of how much the press/and her parents hurt her Nicky being out and proud as response to a lifetime of constant homophobia !!

Renee&Neil - The name changes!!! Natalie and Nathaniel. Them both having aversions to knives bc of their pasts but that view changing bc of Andrew. Renee acting as witness against her former gang and Neil selling out his father's empire. The two killers on the team who have never been caught. It's canon that Neil can tell Renee's past is darker than she seems which is why its so wary but also what about Renee feeling the same thing. Renee seeing Neil and being reminded of who she used to be does that make it harder or easier to be around neil? I have a feeling they could dig up each other's demons and I like that a lot.

Kevin and Seth - Oooof this dynamic is highly underexplored. Like Neil assumes Seth is jealous of Kevin in the beginning and while that might be true dismissing it a jealousy feels like a bit of shallow reading. Seth was one of the original foxes from Wymack's line the only fifth year wheras Kevin is Wyamck's son who was never supposed to be fox material but is here anyways. Kevin sees Seth as like a waste of a scholarship and Seth knows it. Like Seth is a failure and self-sabotages while Kevin is a huge perfectionist whose high standards are detrimental to everyone. Their such opposites it's so interesting to me. Maybe its just me but I feel like Seth's issue w/Kevin comes from the fact that he doesn't really see Kevin as a fox. Kevin is respected, adored and has money, influence and support that the foxes don't have. Random strangers literally crying bc Kevin might never play again and Seth's own mom not even picking up his ashes did his brothers even show up to his funeral??

[the-fox-with-no-name]

Aftg Skit Tumblr edition: Anonymous question to the Foxes: “What happened to hey, hi, or hello, you wanna have lunch, or dinner, or wanna go on a date?”

Matt: “Hey, hi, or hello? I say that to Dan every day! Then we have lunch and dinner together because we’re basically living the rom-com life.”

(Ends with some cute emojis like ❤️🍕.)

Dan: “What do you mean? That’s literally how Matt asked me out for the first time. Guys, the classics still work if you’re sweet and not a jerk about it.”

(Attaches a cute throwback photo of them sharing coffee.)

Nicky: “Oh, honey, they’re too busy swiping on apps and using gifs for flirting these days. No one has the guts to ask someone out properly! But for real, if someone texted me hey, hi, or hello and asked me to lunch, I’d marry them on the spot, even if it’s, like, Taco Bell! PLEASE bring this energy back, the streets are lonely!!!”

#Love you Erik!!! 💋 😗 💏 😙 😽 😚 💋 

Kevin: “That’s because people are lazy and weak. They rely on ridiculous emojis and don’t understand how to communicate clearly. If you want something, just say it.

Also, 'hey, hi, or hello' isn’t even efficient these days.”

Neil: “I don’t understand the question. Are people not capable of saying this anymore? It’s a string of words. Just say it. Is this a real issue?”

(Blunt and confused, clearly missing the social context entirely.)

Andrew: “Because it’s pointless and stupid. Nobody needs to say all that. Either ask directly or leave me alone. I’m not interested. Don’t ask again.”

(Sounds like a threat and probably terrifies half of Tumblr into deleting their blogs.)

Nicky (freaking out in the tags): #oh my god andrew no one’s even asking YOU out calm down

#why are you like this??

#neil you’re not helping either WHAT IS THIS TEAM

#can we have normal answers for once??

Aaron: "I don’t see the problem. It worked fine for me. I said ‘Hey’ to Katelyn, and now we’re engaged. I mean, it’s not that hard. Just don’t overthink it."

Nicky (in the tags, of course):

#aaron THAT IS NOT HOW YOU ASKED HER OUT YOU WERE A NERVOUS MESS ESPECIALLY WITH ANDREW WATCHING YOU

#katelyn is the reason it worked don’t lie

#stop acting like you’re cooler than you are!!!

Neil: "I don’t bother with all that. I just ask Andrew if he wants to eat, and he usually just goes with it. It’s not complicated."

Nicky (in the tags, again):

#'he usually just goes with it' NEIL THAT’S A RELATIONSHIP RIGHT THERE

#why do you make it sound like you’re exchanging strategies in a war instead of planning a date

#these two need therapy but like… together??

#andrew is 100% glaring while neil types this

Kevin: "What’s even worse is that their entire relationship started because Andrew hit Neil with a fucking racquet that day in Arizona. That’s not ‘hey, hi, or hello.’ That’s assault. And somehow, it evolved into whatever this is. Neil asks, Andrew grunts, and people in this app call it romance. It’s frankly nauseating."

Nicky (in the tags, losing his mind):

#KEVIN YOU DID NOT NEED TO BRING THAT UP

#why are you like this

#also stop pretending you know anything about romance you're the LAST person qualified to comment

#i hate it here

Neil: "If you think about it, it was kind of breathtaking. Not just the hit itself, obviously, but what it led to."

Alison (texting the group chat):*"What the hell? How did we go from ‘hey, hi, or hello’ to breathtaking abuse? Can you fuckers stay on topic for five minutes?"

Nicky (back in the tags):

#NEIL WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS

#breathtaking MY ASS

#ANDREW STOP GLARING AT ME I CAN FEEL IT THROUGH THE SCREEN

#Alison is the only one making sense right now for once

Renee: "I think it’s sweet, in its own way. Everyone’s version of love looks different, and theirs just happens to involve... unconventional beginnings. It’s still love."

(She ends her response with a serene emoji, probably a 🌸.)

Andrew: I hate him

Matt and Dan (immediately in the replies):

Matt: “Nope. I’m out. This got way too out of hand.”

Dan: “Same. We’re done here. Good luck, everyone!”

(They both log off Tumblr for the day, probably to go on a wholesome dinner date.)

Nicky (in the tags, yet again):

#renee you’re too nice for this team i swear

#matt and dan are the only sane ones to leave

#meanwhile neil is calling violence romantic

#WHY AM I EVEN STILL HERE

Jean (enters the chat panicking): "Guys, Jeremy just asked me out on a date. Like, an actual date, with burgers and ice cream. WHAT DO I DO? Is this normal? Do people just... do this??"

(Long pause in the group chat)

Kevin, Nicky, Aaron (all typed together): "Oh, Jesus Christ."

Neil: "Just go. I’ll be fine."

Renee: "Aww, that’s so sweet! You’ll have a great time, Jean. Jeremy is such a wonderful person."

Aaron: "I completely forgot about this guy’s trauma."

Andrew:":| "

Nicky (freaking out in the tags):

#EVERYONE IS SO USELESS EXCEPT RENEE

#jean sweetie it’s NORMAL JUST GO HAVE FUN

#but also kevin why are you like this you’re supposed to be his FRIEND

#and andrew could you TRY to be more supportive?? no? okay cool

#poor jeremy he’s gonna have to deal with this team’s emotional mess

[rederiss]

Okok so I am in full full agreement with a majority of what you said, especially regarding the 3/4 switcharoo between Jean and Neil. Those two being, essentially, connected through every avenue (and the more I learn about Jean the more he and Neil do intertwine like...) down to their numbers and symbolism. I find that so so interesting. (Andrew and the number three I could go on about, too. And how he's woven into this, but I won't like gserjh) A little on Kevin's relationship with the Queen tattoo (as I see it.) before I go batshit in the tags on the number post because I won't be able to focus until I get this out (ADHD babyyyy):

I actually see Kevin's symbolism as the queen a rejection of that numerical hierarchy. He's erasing the number, the proposition that what people on the outside see as more important is... more important? If that makes sense. Like... most people would say the King is the most important piece on the board. And to a degree, it is! I'm far from a chess expert, but the Queen piece is typically designated as the most powerful piece on the board for its versatility and more aggressive movements. The King is in control on the surface, making very little movement but maintaining this semblance of control. The Queen is an active and diverse piece. Because the Queen can take the action of a rook or bishop, and the Queen is capable of a check. The Queen is capable of pulling a surprise move from its back pocket (like Kevin switching to his left hand) and is treasured for this element. I think it's more an explicit, "hey most of us assume the King is the best piece, but it's actually the Queen, who is often considered the second best piece."

Also, not to get hardcore into like... bleh sorry. So, in order to win a game against a lone king (and one could consider Riko the lone king), the Queen has to work with a King piece. Which I think could speak to Kevin's journey of finding a team he can work alongside, who match him pace for pace. He cannot win it on his own, but he is a powerful piece on the board. Historically, the Queen actually began with the least available movements, and slowly became more and more powerful with time. It's also very, very common to sacrifice one's Queen to win a game.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but the power of the Queen tattoo, I think, is more in Kevin rejecting the rigidity of the Raven's structure and what he's been taught about power and the hierarchy. It's a less symbolically powerful position, but it is the one that has the most play, power, and sway towards the course of a game. Correlate with Kevin not becoming the captain, happy to let Dan or Neil stay Captain, because it's less time on court. Practically, the Queen functions as a powerful piece, especially against the King who *appears* powerful but is actually very rigid and conforming in its movements and strategies.

The cool thing about literature is the different perspectives on a specific topic and seeing how it all correlates to one another. Everyone views one concept very different. The interesting thing about chess is being able to change a pawn into a powerful chess piece. Most of the times, they will change that piece into the queen since she is the most powerful on the board. That’s why Kevin changed his pawn piece into the queen, making him the most powerful and versatile on court (He’s not wrong).

In general, with chess, the best way way to win against a king is having two chess pieces that are playing with each other. Riko only wanted pawns and not expected anyone to turn themself into the queen (like Kevin) or the Knight (like Jean… I can go into why I think this in another post… I got thoughts on who is what piece tbh).

While I think everything you said about Kevin is true, I do think there is some conversation to be had about him covering his tattoo up rather than removing it because the ghost of the two is still there. He covered it up to symbolize exactly what you said (which I agree with) but has he fully moved on from that number? (Go read TGR. Do it. Now. Teehee) I do think he is heading towards fully rejecting but it takes time to heal from that sort of abuse that he had endured. To me, Kevin is still in limbo, but that has a lot to do with us not fully seeing his healing from what happened to him. By the end of the main trilogy, we haven’t seen a lot of healing on Kevin’s part apart from getting his tattoo covered.

[propheticlyre]

ok its been a day so im ready to put my thoughts down, in no particular order, and definitely an incomplete list. below the cut for length and spoilers

jeremey backstory reveal, I'm :(((

while difficult obviously, i appreciate the way nora has handled homophobia in this book, in a way that balances having a safe place in the trojans with the homophobia of jeremy's family - i dont feel like i can explain it well, it just seems like she captures the homophobia of the time period well, especially in particular kinds of political circles, without it being miserable to read and a hopeless cesspit of homophobia idk

speaking of """time period""" (quotes because treating books set in the early 2000s as historical fiction feels wrong although at this point is accurate) the offhand reference to the politics surrounding the iraq war did untold levels of psychic damage to me

a lot of this comes from that while not a political family like jeremy's, i was growing up at the same time with a family that would have very much politically aligned with them and so it hits close to home

and i'm begging, jeremy needs to figure out in the third book that he deserves the same kind of future he wants for jean and all his friends - one where he is happy with the life he chooses!!!

also let him change his last name since he has rejected wilshire and he wants to let go of knox (i know someone who he could share a last name with too ;) )

after what feels like lots of fandom speculation, i loved that it was just kevin and andrew who came to california for the interview (ok i actually hate that andrew ever has to set foot in california again but narratively i appreciate what it says about his and kevin's relationship that andrew does it), AND the reveal that neil had not told either of them he'd been to see jean - i saw lots of posts/fanfic around neil going back to south carolina and talking to andrew about the grayson stuff and while i understand the interest in exploring that and i dont mean judgment towards that i just love that neil treats that as wholly jean's business and he is not going to be telling his secrets to anyone, including andrew

xavier explaining being trans to jean and jean is just immediately chill about it, in the most predictably jean way possible and its so 🥹🥹

spokane mention jumpscare

happy old gay couple!!!! yes they have to hide it behind the "we're just two bachelors chilling together" but they're gay!! and happy!! and together!! anyway i just don't think there can ever be enough representation for this kind of story and im always happy for stories with queer elders like this!!

in general rhemann's characterization in this book !! i love him your honor. i also love, again after ages of fandom speculation on it, that the one to go to violence for jean is rhemann, but not by breaking the rules to take a red card, but truly in a moment of physical defense of jean but that even STILL nora establishes that this does not make jean feel safe with rhemann, that he can physically stop zane scares him, even if when jean talks with adi he acknowledges he mentally knows rhemann wouldnt hurt him, he still feels scared (i feel like this mirrors neil/wymack's dynamic but its different, but that would be a whole other discussion)

laila and cat. cat and laila. i feel like we got so many insights into them in this book and yet i need MORE. the laila and jeremey family dynamics at play !! cat and jean as biker buddies !! also them at every possible opportunity being like "no jean really, please leave us in the house alone, we have some things to do. together."

the house... their home... im crying for them. while theres obviously the big things, i feel like the mentions of so many of the smaller sentimental things were like stabs in the heart - their photos from their dates, cat's quilts from her grandmother, jeremy's nan's movie collection, jean's first new postcard from kevin, and of course, barkbark :(

trying to rebuild their cozy space, and jean finding a painting in the store, and THAT being what spurs laila and cat into action, and while it's very much in a way of getting things that are "good enough" for now, rather than beloved pieces, i think its so so huge that their new place is something they are so actively building WITH jean

i 100% do not trust those fugly fbi agents though, im still suspicious of the new place

jean's eating disorder issues but him always trusting cat!!! and cat telling him to trust himself!!

speaking of that scene, I'm on my knees begging for pat, ananya, and cody to get together finally!!

jean going to therapy, and verbalizing that he deserves to recover from his trauma, when i tell you i am crying for him

jean bodily checking bryson into laila's car, breaking the windshield, to defend jeremy and laila and laila being "you should have seen him jeremy, it was hot and i dont even like men ;)"

also on the note of unwanted visitors im tired of ravens showing up to harass jean, leave him alone!!!! (insert here the era appropriate "leave britney alone" meme)

jabberwocky moreau !!!!!!

[thespineoftherighteous]

about the choking scene, it really is the damn kevin of it all that I hate about it😭but not because I like kevin as a character (I do, but that's not the point) but more because I personally hate the idea where its like you can only have the one person youre in a romantic relationship with important to you and evrything else comes second and fandoms push that a lot, though I expected something different from a fandom that probably has more ace/aro ppl than others, other types of relationships can be just as important and I think it would be nice for characters who have been lonely for so long to have a few people who are important to them 😭I think it's like you said where I don't like when other relationships get butchered for the romantic one, I don't think it was ooc, and even if it was, people do things in desperate situations that are ooc so that wouldn't be a problem, it's that a lot of readers make it this romantic thing or a thing where Andrews prioritised neil over kevin, or has picked neil over kevin and they do the same thing with aaron too, it's like can't andrew love and care about his brother and boyfriend and kevin at the same time😭does it have to be a competition? Love can't even be quantified so a competition would be stupid anyway

I just think I hate the way a lot of people talk about it and I wanted to discuss it with a person whose posts are more objective and that I like, like it's such a tricky scene to think about, it's like the wires get crossed in my head its a hard scene to contend with in general

omg yeah basically everything you've said here is how I feel about it. a lot of people say that Andrew's relationship with Neil is more significant and just means more than any of Andrew's other relationships because of how Neil you know. gets him I guess. but honestly even though I fully understand that his relationship with Neil is on a different level, I still hate the ditching of Kevin (AND AARON UGH I HATE HOW THE TWINS LITERALLY CHOSE THEIR S/O'S OVER EACH OTHER. it's completely understandable in context and it is way more in character than the opposite would've been but still. I hate it) and I think people also tend to like. baby Andrew when it comes to his relationship with Kevin like "well if Kevin treated him better and understood him better then mAYBE—"

but yeah the thing that makes me most uncomfortable about the choking bit is like you said how people try to make it romantic. which, to be honest, is I think how it's supposed to be taken like it's supposed to be showing Andrew's desperation and how far he's willing to go for Neil. I just. well. I despise that Kevin was the one that had to be used to demonstrate that. but the whole thing is that, because that's Kevin, it's the only way to show the magnitude of Andrew's frustration, like it wouldn't have been the same if he'd just trashed the hotel room in rage or something but I still hate that he overstepped their boundaries for it because me personally I'm thinking about Kevin when I read that scene, not Andrew and Neil.

that whole thing just uses how important Kevin is to Andrew to show how much more important Neil now is. so if you're mostly about the romance in these books, which I think a lot of fans are, then ofc you'll eat that up but personally the non romantic pairings always are more interesting and dearer to me so I think that's why it bothers me

[wuzeio]

i keep brainworming over your recent zombie au piece [kicks feet in air] tell me more 🫶 (if you wanna)

OUGGH GHDJFG IM SO GLAD 🫶🫶🫶T___T i think the AU fits AFTG especially really well!! My fav zombie apocalypse media is the Telltale Walking dead games so ... lots of inspiration drawn from that (and ofc Last of us for that good ol "oh they have immunity against the virus" trope") (also train of busan/TWD show for outbreak origin inspo)

How the virus outbreak starts in this AU: honestly have not thought about the specific details but the gist of it is that a deadly mutagen accidentally gets developed in a biotech lab while conducting experiments on animals >someone gets bit > starts to show signs and turns into zombie > more people get bit > everybody has the virus now, turns into a global pandemic

some char background/

Andrew and Aaron would have already been living together before the outbreak, and Nicky only lives likes 10ish minutes away from them. When all hell breaks loose, Nicky's parents get killed by a zombie hoard and he immediately goes to Andrew and Aaron to join up for safety. Andrew realizes that remaining where they are is only going to get them killed, so they drive his car out of the state in hopes to find a safer place (smart!).

I don't think Drew's group encounter Kevin and Neil until a few years later, when the apocalyptic world has become the norm and its all about survival now (maybe around 3-4 years?). The monsters have joined forces with different groups and even joined a few settlements in the past, but they find that they work best alone, just the three of them. Fortunately they have enough connections to make supply trades if its ever needed; Nicky's the interlocutor and peacemaker.

Kevi ... he would've still grown up in the Nest and played Exy in this AU. When the outbreak occurs there, the Ravens are trapped with the infected and it's basically a brutal death for all of them. Kevin and Riko manage to escape (with Riko ruthlessly killing a few teammates-turned-zombies on his way out, no hesitation!) Kevin and Riko have a very close relationship during the first few years of the apocalypse, but its more of Riko putting a leash on his brother and demanding him to do certain tasks. Kevin is strong and has lots of stamina, so he's incredibly reliable in an abundance of duties. Riko is also not above betraying groups they "befriend", and does not hesitate to kill or sell someone out when he thinks its better for their survival. Near the 3rd year mark, tensions between the two brothers begin to rise as Kevin starts to express his discomfort towards Riko's actions. They start to fight more often, and Kevin starts to rebel a little more. In turn, Riko gets increasingly paranoid about their dwindling supply stock/the fact that Kevin might betray him, so he ends up making a trade with a group of nearby raiders: Kevin for 6 months of supplies. Kevin, obviously, is horrified when he realizes this betrayal and deception. On the second night with the raiders, he manages to fight 4 of them off and runs off into the night. He meets Drew's group 3 months later. (btw kevin running off means that riko is now after him, because those raiders were not happy about what happened)

Neil!! He's in his last year of HS (still plays Exy for their team) when Mary convinces him to run away with her from their abusive father. In this AU she also steals a shit load of money from him and they take a plane to Georgia. The zombie outbreak occurs whilst on their run, and they manage to survive together for the first year. They make their way to South Carolina, but Mary gets killed during a crossfire started by bandits and...Neil is left alone now.

(note: I changed somethings regarding Neil/Kevin's relationship. Scratch them having past family connections!) He desperately tries to join up with a few groups, but all of them result with him either being assaulted or robbed from. The one group he finally finds and begins to feel a kinship with, he ends up being betrayed. Guess who the group is!! It's Kevin and Riko! After a near death experience with that, he's jaded, wary, and untrusting towards anyone. He's learned that staying alone gives him the highest rate of survival— that it's not the zombies that are the most dangerous. Those are easy to kill. A few smashes to the head and they're dead. But people, they're capable of doing the most evil, heinous things. (cue : " “It’s not the world that’s cruel. It’s the people in it.") oh also. he finds out hes immune after getting bit in the hand. He freaks out, introspects for a few days, and comes to the conclusion that he's going to kill himself before he turns. But it never happens.

3 years later, he's a seasoned veteran when it comes to surviving on his own. However, from a stroke of bad luck, he ends up getting hit by crossbow arrow in the forest while scavenging. This is how Drew finds him.

uhhh there's a lot more ideas in my head but I'm gonna wrap it up here because this got wayyy too long hehe thank you if you read it all... honestly this ask was very helpful because it helped me work out this AU in detail a lot more >:D

[dayurno]

hiii dayurno I’m a big fan !! In general but also of the name of the game which is what this ask is abt

Somewhat of a directors cut question bc the kevjean brain worms are eating me from the inside out - do u think there’s a version of the name of the game where Kevin turns away from Andrew and Neil and ends up with Jean - although I guess I don’t mean that kevjean need to end up romantic rather than simply the most important relationship in each others lives

Although I guess a broader question is if there’s a version where Kevin turns his back on Andrew and Neil and if so what happens then

its always touching (but crazy!) when people tell me they like tnotg because looking back on it its been 3 years and theres a lot of things about it i dislike 🫡 mostly writing choices and typos and whatnot, but its very sweet to me that people still care about it and are willing to look past those….. tch! i am nonetheless all too aware of the flaws in it but i’ll edit it one day. eventually. 4 sure

as for your question hmmm lets see! if you’re asking if there’s an universe where kevin rejects andreil — i think so! i think if kevin hadn’t slept with river, hadn’t moved to charleston, hadn’t befriended robin at the time he did, he probably wouldn’t have gotten to the yes he gives them in chapter 6. it wouldn’t necessarily be a finite forever no, but it’d definitely be a very uncertain Maybe andrew wouldn’t have wanted to work with it. at that point they would’ve stopped pursuing him unless neil thought he could convince kevin, but i’m not sure andrew would’ve been on board with that

now an universe where he ends up with jean….🤔💭 when i wrote tnotg there was little to no information (or really content) about jean and most of the kevjean friendship was based off of guesses and headcanons. this is i think made obvious by the fact that jean is older than kevin in it and was already a year into his contract with the stingrays when kevin signed with them. he wasn’t the one to suggest they move in together, but he offered kevin a place to stay while he looked for apartments, which led to the conclusion of kevin asking if he wants to be roommates. part of it was kevin scared of living alone, but the other part was simply because kevin wanted to be closer to jean again, and he thought close proximity could mend the parts of their relationship he thought were still off

which is all to say: yes! there can be a world where kandreil don’t get together and kevjean do :) my original plan 3 years ago was to involve jean with their captain in an out of wedlock affair (3 cheers for yonah’s shitty fiance), but it was scrapped pretty early in the writing process. i still think jean and yonah could have casually dated or hooked up on the side, and eventually river would have figured it out and told kevin, which would make him look at jean. Differently. i think. at the point of kevin’s first season he’s not really thinking about jean as an adult so much as he’s thinking about the memory of him as a teenager, so it’d be a bit of a shock to hear jean is fooling around with a teammate, which would put associations in his head he would Not Like To Deal With

the thing is that i don’t know if tnotg jean was in love with kevin the way tsc jean was. i think it was definitely There on the back of his mind, but i’m not sure if that version of him would have acknowledged his feelings, and it’s likely he’d have suppressed them much more than he did in tsc. but, by the time the tnotg timeline starts, jean is in a much better and calmer place, and i think he would eventually reevaluate those memories if kevin showed any sign of interest in him. and then it’d be free real estate

[bloody-wonder]

omg im the tsc anon, i literally sent it cause i knew from the past aftg opinions you shared - you'd likely feel similarly to the way i did about tsc

neil outshines jean to such a shocking degree when he only has a handful of scenes... neil is a fantastic protagonist so ofc it's hard to live up to, but come on 😭 jean has such a weaker personality imo? he does/says less interesting things, but also has a less interesting perspective on things. his lack of standing up for himself when the trojans badgered him constantly and talked behind his back bothered me to. can u imagine neils reaction if the foxes had been sharing his secrets over a group chat?

but just in general. tsc felt like a sanitised version of aftg, if that makes sense? scrubbed clean of the controversial and unconventional aspects. and it's those aspects that, in my opinion, played a huge part in what made aftg so good. noras a very talented writer, but i can not comprehend the decision to make tsc... all that it was, yknow? it feels almost like it was written for the 'andreil say ily' part of the fandom...

neil really saved this book for me icl. outsider pov of him is fascinating. and while andrew barely said/did anything even when he was there, i actually kinda liked that? it puts into perspective how ig off-putting andrew can appear to those who don't put in the effort with him. 'creepy little goalkeeper' is so funny and so accurate, he IS a creepy little goalkeeper and i love that for him.

idk, some things i had anticipated - the trojans being who they are were never going to match the foxes. jeremy x jean was never going to match andreil (and ive seen ppl comparing them already... the blasphemy.) but there were things i was surprised weren't there. i had expected kevin and jeans relationship to be a lot more tense ig? i had thought jean would harbor a MUCH deeper resentment towards kevin, but i suppose its just not his character? but when i was reading, i couldn't help asking what would the fan reaction had been if that had been the case? if kevin and jeans past relationship, and places in a cult hierarchy, had shown through in a much uglier and uncomfortable way? i can see why she didn't do that, i don't even necessarily want that, i think i was just desperate for this book to have some sort of deep conflict between the characters.

on the subject, kevin felt quite different from how he was in aftg. but i can't quite put my finger on why.

anyway, it is nice to see someone else have mixed feelings towards the book. i enjoyed it, but i was shocked how many people seemed to really love it. not because it was bad. but because, to me, it was so fundamentally different from aftg.

thank you for sharing your thoughts! i suspected you might have written me bc i used to be the resident notorious contrarian of the fandom lol

yeah neil is a textbook example of a protag who drives the plot forward, he has that main character energy which jean totally lacks which makes sense since jean was originally a minor side character. at the same time the differences in their characterization make complete sense in universe due to the different ways they were brought up and the different trauma they faced. so it all comes down to each reader's personal preference: for me, neil's arc is a self-indulgent power fantasy. i think i have a strong sense of self and when i can't achieve something it's due to circumstances so far out of my control it's impossible to overcome them. it's therefore very satisfying to read about neil facing impossible odds and winning thanks to the sheer force of his personality, whereas jean's way of dealing with trauma feels less fun by comparison. but other readers can relate to him more and all the power to them. i do however think tsc does a disservice to its new characters by opening with a rather lengthy recap of how cool the foxes were in the last act of tkm and closing on a chapter where neil comes along and reminds us who the real hero of this story is🤷‍♀️

i don't think tsc has been entirely scrubbed clean of controversial aspects - i saw plenty of reviews complaining about the amount of dark content (in book 4 of a series known for its dark content, le gasp) - but i do think the handling of certain things was less nuanced than in aftg. for instance, both stories have a plot bit about someone unknowingly exposing a character to their abuser which leads to them being retraumatized (jean himself comments on the similarities between drake and grayson). in aftg that someone is nicky - a person andrew knows and trusts, a person the readers grew to care about (lol not me but certainly some other readers) - so his role in the tragic sequence of events is that much more upsetting. rape and abuse is terrible but the fact that a person who means well can exacerbate the issues bc they don't have the framework to understand the other person - that hits so much harder for me personally. so in the end drake is just an evil rapist but nicky is a much more nuanced character bc through him nora questions whether being nice and having good intentions is enough, whose feelings should be centered on in such a complex situation, whose emotional needs should be prioritized etc. by contrast, in tsc that person is lucas - someone we basically just met, who is nothing more than an antagonistic stranger to jean and who we therefore don't care about. which is why when he leads grayson to jean it's like, first of all, duhh. but secondly, bc it happens against the backdrop of the other ("good") trojans' cheerfully patronizing attitude it doesn't come so much as a shocking twist that puts the ways how we deal with complex trauma into an unconventional perspective than as a culmination of everyone disrespecting jean's boundaries all the time - which is likely what nora intended but the overall constellation feels much less interesting to me.

ig this ties into your point about the book lacking the kind of deep conflict aftg had - but maybe that was intentional too, maybe it's supposed to be aftg light in that sense, sort of a post canon character study fic. which i am not opposed to, not everything has to be high plot and tension and grey morality, but unfortunately the emotional core the story relies on in the absence of the plot just didn't work for me. i can accept jean's "weaker" personality, i can understand him not being able to stand up for himself even tho i can't admire it, but i draw the line at how forced his friendship with jeremy and the girls ended up feeling. like, i still can't get over cat's sex toy joke right on the heels of jean being badgered into admitting he had been sexually abused - the info which jeremy promptly spilled to the girls. if something like that happened to me i would never be able to trust these people again, much less call them friends so soon. it's such a bizarre contrast between how neil joining the monsters in tfc despite their problematic initiation rituals feels valid bc the narrative earned it both plot-wise (we're now facing a bigger enemy together) and character-wise (neil pushing back, talking about why they did it, nicky apologizing) on the one hand - and how jean accepting jeremy, cat and laila as his new friends feels rushed and artificial despite them being so very nice and domestic and wholesome on the other hand. idk maybe it's bc i'm inherently skeptical about disingenuous cozy/hopepunk subgenres in modern lit bc they usually have a darker underbelly people are loath to confront but ngl the words sanitized and conventional did come to mind while reading and so did the idea that tsc will especially appeal to a certain subset of fans which found the (at times uncomfortable) complexity of the original trilogy too much to handle. well, i hope they're enjoying their fantasy of healing a survivor of cptsd by cooking and shopping and hugs - i certainly got to enjoy mine in aftg, there's plenty to go around lol

besides, tsc being so different/separate from aftg makes it really easy to just not engage with the fan content and discussions if it starts feeling like they veer into the annoying territory too much. tbh my primary concern when tsc was announced was that it could contain some retcons about andreil and aftg which i wouldn't agree with - and that didn't happen, my boys are still very much in character, so i can just retreat to my enclosure and leave tsc to jean stans who are its main target audience in any case.

[inafieldofstarflowers]

hello madi!! how are you?

i was wondering about your thoughts on the various jean ships? :)

-@you-know-i-get-itt

hi gia !!

i’m slightly stressed by life but have fun weekend plans, so it evens out :)

after some thought about this question i think the only jean ships i can speak on are with kevin, renee, neil, and jeremy because i don’t have enough thoughts about others to speak on them (also this got longer than I thought so ~my bad~)

Renee: I do like them together however I also think Renee was right when she said they were the right people, wrong time. Renee meets Jean and makes a point of keeping in touch with him, and then goes to great lengths to help get him out of the Nest, and I think that her offering him love without expecting something in return is super important for him as he starts to heal, because the whole time he's known her, she's been showing him that, in her eyes, he's worth a lot outside of anything he can do, which directly contrasts his life with the Ravens. Whether in a romantic way or not, I think understanding the value Jean places on his relationship with Renee is necessary for a complete picture of him as a character/his growth.

Jeremy: (I may be biased because I just love Jeremy BUT) I love what we've seen of their relationship so far--Jeremy does initially get USC to bring Jean in for Kevin, but like Renee, Jeremy makes efforts from the actual start of his relationship with Jean to help him because he wants the best for Jean, and while it definitely hasn't been perfect (because they're college students and Jean is healing from the trauma of literally being tortured and Jeremy doesn't know that), there's been consistent work to establish boundaries and build up a support network, and the fact that Jean is willing to tell Jeremy when he's crossed a line is a big deal. I'm interested to see how things develop as we learn more about Jeremy because right now I could see it going lots of different ways, but as things stand I support it as a long term thing (in which Jean takes time to heal before entering a relationship)

Kevin: Kevin and Jean give toxic situationship in a way that I genuinely don't think either of them could have avoided, because the root cause of it is that their bonding happened while they were being deeply traumatized--basically, I think that the two of them being in a relationship would be deeply unhealthy, but that it would be unhealthy in an incredibly compelling "I need you even though you're bad for me and this is actively working against my personal growth sort of way, which offers a lot of room for character exploration. I think that the balance they have of trusting and defending each other while maintaining bitterness/guilt over what they went through (and specifically everything with Kevin leaving) is fascinating, and I think it's worth noting that a lot of Kevin's moments of softness/lowering his guard (calling Jean after learning about Evermore's move, telling Neil he can trust Jean, reaching out to Jeremy, the magnets and postcards, etc.) involve Jean.

Neil: to me jeanneil is neither inherently romantic nor platonic but a secret third option. Jean and Neil really haven't known each other long or spent much time together, but their connection is strong and the two of them give each other trust a lot more quickly than they would usually allow (which, yes, is partly due to winter break, but the fact that it endures means a lot). I do believe that Neil cares about all of the Foxes by the end of the series, but the way he interacts with Jean is distinct from how he interacts with anyone else, and the lengths that he's willing to go to for Jean specifically put him in a category with Andrew (and, to some extent, Kevin, but Neil and Kevin's relationship is a whole post of its own and this is already toooo long). Their relationship is also interesting because so much of it is held in "what could have been" and the idea of them being misplaced forever partners (I think Jean specifically wonders what it would have been like to have Neil, who is an instigator at heart, in the Nest, not only because he would have had a partner but also because Jean's acceptance of his fate/role is an active choice that he made because it was the way he could survive, and I wonder if he would have chosen the same if Neil had been there with him), but they are also making the choice to not leave it at "could have beens" and to instead have a relationship

[femmeloverboy]

HEAVY on shipping andreil with other ppl inherently mischaracterizes them!! i truly believe anyone who ships andreil with others just doesn't actually like them. not truly. and doesn't understand why their relationship works in the first place.

it's especially funny when ppl are like "you can see the remains of kandreil"... no u can't 🤨 andreil are both very clearly not into kevin lol and both also very clearly don't care about him anywhere near as much as they care about each other. he doesn't fit into their relationship at all lol. not to specifically hate on kandreil, its just that it's the most popular "andreil with other ppl" ship and ppl do try to argue that there's evidence in the book for it working when there's clearly not. like I said, I think anyone who sees kandreil in the books just doesn't GET andreil, yknow?

EXACTLYYYY ANON!!! EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS!!! Ur so real. You get it. Controversial, but I fear it is just the truth. It would never happen in canon, they don't work together, they are explicitly not interested in Kevin. If ppl r going to ship kandreil, they could at least acknowledge it is an entirely fanon ship that doesn't work and has no basis in canon (and you have to actively mischaracterise multiple characters to make it happen 🫣) .... when they insist there is implications of it in canon I kind of giggle bcuz like.... be serious. be so actually serious. I honestly feel like it's an insult to Kevin to consistently shove him into ships he doesn't fit into, like .... FREE HIM? 😭😭 if kandreil worked or was supposed to happen, it would be canon, bcuz it literally was in previous drafts, like... there is a Reason it isn't a thing in the final draft.

And then there's the specific ways that andreil work together, their mutual understanding of each other than nobody else quite gets. And then ofc Neil's demisexuality, which people love to ignore – this bothers me so much bcuz we barely have any canon aspec characters, nevermind demisexual SPECIFIC characters (and representation of acephobia), to erase that is so...... 🤕 like damn I lowkey hate you! Why are ur fanon ships and smut more important than canonical representations of asexuality, of an underrepresented queer identity? This is an issue that goes beyond just this fandom, also. People LOVE erasing aspec characters bcuz they're too obsessed w shipping and smut to just respect their canon identity. Anyway, andreil work together so specifically, they understand each other in a way nobody else understands them. They are perfect for each other and made for each other etc etc !!!! No other character could connect w Neil or Andrew like they connect w each other!!!

Tbh, I've never even understood the appeal of shipping andreil w other ppl bcuz they are so perfect together and they have a beautiful relationship. They are enough by themselves, together, with each other. They don't need anybody else, they don't need to be individually shipped with different people (this gets me worse than kandreil tbh. Like how DAREEE you separate them. Jail.) They are an incredible ship, they changed my life and have consumed my brain for Years. I, for one, would never change them or separate them >:(

[ghelgheli]

curious about the mesoudi? surely its not just social darwinism right

(re: Towards a Unified Science of Cultural Evolution [doi] and Is Human Cultural Evolution Darwinian? [doi], both by Alex Mesoudi, Andrew Whiten, Kevin N. Laland and listed on my september reading list)

nope, not at all! the thrust of both articles is similar: that those academic disciplines dedicated to studying the state and change of human culture (broadly construed—this captures linguistics, archaeology, sociology...) can benefit epistemically and methodologically from the wisdom of a century of work in evolutionary biology and its related umbrella as gained through a darwinian understanding of evolution

an example i'd give of where this has happened in a convergent sort of way (but still, imo, needs to happen more) is in the case of linguistic typology. the development of comparative and therefore historical linguistics in the 19th century, thru a wittgensteinian turn in the early 20th century, thru to today, destabilizes epistemologies that hold languages as fixed natural kinds, and sociolinguistic work (as well as an honest metaphysics of language) ought to destabilize the notion that languages are any sort of essential kind at all. the understanding of language as a relational phenomenon that only exists insofar as it is instantiated helps us understand why speaking of "a language" as an abstraction can only ever be the work of inventing taxonomies to describe vague and varying uses of language between people who are never really speaking the same platonic object of a language (i am definitely stepping on some realist toes here but i do not care. i've had professors who think that languages have some kind of independent metaphysical existence and this is honestly silly). this problematizes dialect/language distinctions and indeed ought to direct the sort of work any descriptive linguist does. if you think about it this is exactly the kind of destabilization that darwin offered to the use of natural kinds in biology. a species is not really a thing with an essence; it is a convenient generalization that is often vague, can be misleading, flattens variation, etc. (consider ring species, or paleontological work of building taxonomies of evolutionary history)

the first article gives an example (among many others) analogizing paleobiology with archaeology in the following way: inheritance is axiomatic to understanding fossil records, and those records are analyzed with evolutionary relationships via inheritance in mind. morphological similarities are no accident, but evidence of a genealogical relationship. in a similar way (they say—i'm now leaving my own wheelhouse) archaeology seems to have only recently adopted the methods of trying to analyze relationships between artifacts in the record thru inheritance. this is to be distinguished with firm lines drawn between different material "cultures" where one is supposed to have supplanted the other in a sort of punctuated equilibrium or displacement. instead, records of e.g. arrowtip morphology can be sorted according to similarity, and interpreted as a sequence of inherited cultural practice that changes over time according to "mutations". this also allows for taxonomies of ancestry, where families of material cultures can be hypothesized to descend from common material ancestors on the basis of inherited similarities

obviously the big one in this discussion, tho, is replicator dynamics. and the articles do mention memetics as the abortive attempt at applying replicator dynamics to human culture. what i think is done well is a complication of the conception of biological replicators as straightforward: biological inheritance can be rather more complicated than the gene coding for a trait (they give examples of overlapping, movable, and nested genes), and it isn't a priori a wrench in the machine that hypothetical cultural replicators would not be simply describable. they argue that it can be useful in a discipline like cogsci to try and develop an epistemology of discretized meme-like objects that could, perhaps, be tracked with more fine-grained observational methods than what we have now (there's a rather goofy paragraph about mirror neurons, which are far more contested than popular wisdom would have us think, but the article is from 2006)

now, this is where i think the analogy can sometimes be taken too far—but, to their credit, they don't do this in either article. because there is a tradition i've complained about On Here a number of times of using computational evolutionary biology to try and model cultural phenomena, and i just don't think that can achieve the complexity nor robustness that would be required, nor do i think it holds a candle to alternative methods we have available to us (like, you know, the science of historical materialism—which is in its own way, in the destabilization of kinds, stasis, and "progress" that dialectics offers and the uncompromising analysis of historical facts as proceeding from earlier facts, darwinian). these methods find purchase in evolutionary biology because, for all the genetic complexities involved, the notion of biological fitness is well-defined, as is biological inheritance, and the games that can be played in this sense have robust analogies to real-world competition (e.g. cautious ritual signalling between, say, stags). i'm very skeptical that this is something anyone is going to be able to do with the multiply more complex phenomena of intragenerational behaviour and culture. my immediate impression of anyone who claims to have done so, numerically, is that they fancy themselves the first hari seldon. but anyway, that's just to temper the optimism here. i think the essential thesis is strong.

[elene78-blog]

Jean and Neil aren't good friends. I mean, they probably are by Nora's standards, but it's not a conventional friendship, or that's how I see it. It's another matter that the fandom, in order to "categorize" it, calls it friendship, but their relationship is somewhat more complex.

What you saw in the original trilogy was two people meeting under the worst possible circumstances, two people with very strong parallels who would have had a close relationship if things had turned out differently. Indeed, in this trilogy, Jean and Neil weren't friends, and in TSC, they aren't either. Of course, in this new book, we can see the beginning of a relationship of respect and appreciation for each other—distant and distant, but there, and that's logical considering they're in very similar situations.

It's not that this relationship was born out of nowhere, no. It's that in the new trilogy, events unfold that lead these two to become closer.

However, don't think they're each other's best friends, far from it. Neil and Jean only interact twice in TSC (the last time, they interact in a very significant way, yes), and not at all in TGR, but they "understand" each other and are relatively important to each other.

The closest relationship to what they have could be the relationship between Kevin and Andrew in its early days, but in my opinion, it's funnier (Jean's insults to Neil are hilarious) and perhaps somewhat more reciprocal (referring to the fact that Jean also developed a protective role toward Neil in The Nest, and in TGR, there are some indications that Jean would also develop that protective role if the opportunity arose again. I'm not saying they're closer than Andrew and Kevin, which I don't believe).

Jean says he hates Neil and insults him every chance he gets, but in TGR, we see him caring for him from a distance when something comes up that could negatively affect Neil. Neil seems indifferent to Jean, but whenever he can do something to help him, he does it without being asked. It comes from within him to do it because he understands that he could have been Jean if Mary had made other choices. Jean also supported him at The Nest (as best she could), so Neil respects and appreciates Jean.

They're not exactly "friends," but they are comrades who are developing a strange kind of friendship.

Good friends? No, not on our terms, at least.

But I do think you might be right not to read this new trilogy (at least not yet), because you're thinking about Neil and his relationship with Jean, and you don't find it believable based on the first trilogy. This makes me think you see this new trilogy as a continuation and not as a separate story, so you might be disappointed reading it, thinking of it as a complement to the first.

This story is Jean's, not Neil's. Whether Neil and Jean develop a friendship or not is irrelevant, because Jean's story will focus on many other new characters she'll interact with, not Neil. This is something anyone who wants to read this trilogy and enjoy it should understand before starting it. If you think this is a continuation of the Foxes, you won't enjoy it. It's Jean's story, without the Foxes, even though they appear from time to time.

My advice: don't read TSC and TGR unless you simply want to know Jean's story and how he begins his new life with the Trojans. Don't think that Neil, Kevin, or Andrew might appear in it, because if not, you're dooming it before you even begin. Think of it as a story in the same world, but not a continuation of it. If you do that, you'll most likely like it, since it maintains the essence of the original trilogy (in my case, I like it even more than the first trilogy).

Is this a safe space to say i dont want to read tsc bc im not the biggest supporter of the idea that Jean and Neil are acctually good friends?