#like women have a label for being a masculine woman - butch

[genderqueerdykes]

being cisgender is just not an option for a lot of intersex people.

i was never given the option to be cisgender anything. every part of me that deviated from what a girl or boy "should" look like spelled trouble. because i dressed and acted very masculine, before puberty, people called me a bulldyke, a butch lesbian, a "girl pretending to be a boy" and "not a real boy". i was never "feminine enough" to be a woman.

after puberty hit, i started growing a beard, and my shoulders and chest got broader and more square. my body became more "masculine", so suddenly, i was labeled as a "boy pretending to be a girl" and "not a real girl". after I started testosterone, i haven't stopped being called a faggot, a fairy, a sissy or a pansy because i'm not "masculine enough" to be a man despite being a bear.

there's no winning in the eyes of a society that's so focused on binary this-or-that choices. i had no hand in the matter, this all happened way before I started testosterone HRT. in fact, even when i was placed on estrogen HRT to try to "correct" my intersex traits and symptoms, i still wasn't gendered or seen as a cis woman. i was still the same tranny bulldyke. no matter what i do, my intersex and transsexual traits will always be weaponized against me; whatever sounds the "worst" at the time, or whatever invalidates what i want.

in order to liberate trans people from this struggle, we must also liberate intersex people, for our struggles are virtually one in the same. our fight for body and identity autonomy is shared. it will always be impossible for me and other intersex people to be viewed as cis anything while white American society remains focused on pointing out the "differences" between men and women, instead of embracing the similarities we all can and do have.

intersex and trans people owe it to one another to disassemble these dangerous attitudes and shut them down when and where possible. it's not only trans people who face this struggle- intersex people deal with never being able to pass or be clocked as their actual gender from birth a lot of the time. people MUST understand that women and men come in all types of bodies, shapes and sexes, whether or not they chose to look like that. and whether or not they chose doesn't matter, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, which means being gendered correctly despite how they look or sound.

[youturningintodust]

I’m sick of the fact that just being this person causes us to immediately be viewed as less innocent, or incapable of ever being innocent in the first place.

I don’t want to go home to some partner who is supposed to be safe for me, who instead views me in the same way, and has a fetish about being with someone as supposedly un-innocent as me.

…

It’s why we struggle to get respect in society or work. It’s why we aren’t trusted around our own kids, or in teaching or care jobs. It’s why if a more-feminine/not-butch woman sexually harasses or even abuses a butch, they will likely believe that it was the butch that did it and not her, purely based on our looks alone.

We’re treated as men-lite when it comes to being seen as predators, but ugly, weird women when it comes to receiving sexism and misogynistic abuses from men, risking physical danger, etc.

Why the FUCK would I ever want to tolerate being even further harmed and traumatized by gender conforming cis people? In the way that living with a fetishizing partner AUTOMATICALLY WOULD?

What the hell. Why can’t gender conforming cis people ever stop and consider our actual needs and experiences for once, rather than being this disgustingly selfish?

No, I’m not your fetish, and I don’t want to be any part of it.

…

Is it too much to ask? I just want a grown adult woman who wants a butch/femme relationship and can respect herself and me as equals. That’s it. None of these power games.

Especially not when it’s they who are the ones who ACTUALLY have the societal power and are higher in the hierarchy than us, for being gender conforming when we literally are unable to be.

The reversal insults all of our lived experience, and is a MAJOR slap in the face! No, we are not big scary power figures. Or cis man stand-ins. YOU are the cis gender conforming person in the room. Remember your privilege and have some respect for what it means.

…

Brandon Teena was assaulted and killed by cis men for the so-called crime of being himself, someone known to be afab and look and live masculinely, and with a feminine woman. We put ourselves into great danger just to be not just who we are, but just to be with you. Respect that danger by not framing us AS the danger. The vulnerability of our position deserves the space and decency to be remembered and understood.

Context MATTERS. Spare us your BS.

It feels like both abusive exploitation and some weird enjoyment of lies. It’s a lie that we’re more societally powerful in some way and yet they are so attracted to roleplaying it with us. Just. Ugh. WTF.

Why would roleplaying a lie that doesn’t exist help me? Some BDSM fantasy shit doesn’t change real-world power. It just reminds me indirectly of the harsh reality that actually is. And what I could go through IRL just for living. No, it doesn’t make me feel macho and tough, pride in my masculinity, or whatever. Only softness and kindness can really, meaningfully do that.

But that doesn’t get their callous selves off.

[cock-holliday]

I think a lot of this shit would get cleared up if people recognized man/woman, masc/femme as not opposites but factors in gendered oppression.

Like…oppression is a combination of what you are, how you are seen, and whether you conform.

For example, cis gay men who are targets of homophobia are, of course, targets of homophobia, but a lot of homophobia is rooted in misogynistic patriarchy also. Men are not “supposed” to be feminine and feminine equals female and therefore is less than. But then the question is, so are men rewarded for being masculine? Not always. And sometimes they are severely punished for it. Men of color sure are. Especially Black men. Fat men sometimes are.

So if we look at homophobia directed at women, queer women are targets of homophobia, can be specifically lesbophobia, biphobia—more specific forms. Women are seen as less than for their femininity, for their femaleness. It’s misogyny. But then are butches rewarded for masculinity? No. They are punished for it. For failing to conform, for masculinity that “doesn’t belong to them.” So then this becomes a more complex form of gendered oppression, I wonder if there is a word for that? Google, what is butchphobia? What is antimasculism?

So are women always punished for femininity? Not necessarily. Women who “conform” are rewarded in the way that they are where they are “supposed to” be. Which is still regarded as inferior to men. But embracing gender roles can give you a leg up in bigoted spaces. Is that a reward? Is it punishment? Is a step higher on the ladder privilege or do you have to be at the top?

So if Black men are punished for their masculinity, are they never rewarded for it? No, especially when leveraging misogyny, masculinity can be a powerful tool, but it is not seen as comparable to white masculinity by society. So are Black women rewarded for femininity? Not necessarily. Not in the way white women are. Are they demonized for their masculinity? Very much so. And oh wait, what’s this? How do we account for the way Black women who are feminine are seen as masculine for their features even when they aren’t? Are they perhaps experiencing a more complex form of gendered oppression that needs language to accommodate? Google, what is misogynoir?

Now, since y’all will just insist you are trying to center transfemmes, let’s discuss transfemmes. How do we view butch trans women? Is she rewarded for her masculinity? Absolutely not. Is she punished for not being feminine? Absolutely. Is she seen as predatory and a faker? What about masc AMAB enbies? Are they rewarded for masculinity? Are they rewarded if their features appear male? No and no.

Are trans women rewarded for their femininity? Sometimes. For conforming. For appearing how she’s “supposed to.” For transitioning the “right” way. Is femininity always rewarded? Fuck no. She’s going to be subject to misogyny too. Even if she’s not masculine, if she’s not feminine enough her features are going to label her masculine, label her male, and then she’s going to be subject to transphobia directed at her inability to conform. Her “masculinity” or perceived maleness is a threat, not conforming. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. A more specific manifestation of oppression which is a combination of transphobia and misogyny (and arguably antimasculism). Is there language for this?

Masculinity and femininity are not straight shot rewarded versus punished. Maleness and femaleness are not straight shot rewarded versus punished. Femininity/femaleness are punished through misogyny viewing them as inferior. It can be rewarded (somewhat) through conformity. Masculinity/maleness can be rewarded through conformity, it is punished when it is non-conforming or a threat to those in power.

Is the masculinization of fat women a reward? Is the feminization of Asian men a reward? Is the hyper-sexualization of trans women a reward? Is the desexualization of disabled men a reward?

Binaries are a wildly incomplete analysis of how actual power manifests, what is considered conforming versus an “attack”, and what behaviors actually grant admittance to the club and what labels you as storming the keep.

Almost as if anything short of the pinnacle of white supremacy has the potential to be victimized and every step on the ladder has the potential to gain a higher foothold if they climb onto the people around them.

“Women are—“ stop, what women? “Trans men are—“ stop, what trans men? Scrub “all” and “never” and absolutes and binaries from your discussions of gender.

[tactfullyinappropriate]

Ohhh boy, I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this one but... masc lesbian =/= butch. You can be the most masculine presenting person the world has ever known and that does not automatically make you butch.

Butch is an identity and you kinda need to fit that identity, not make the identity fit you. E.g. "lesbians" who are attracted to cishet men. Sorry, hun, you're just not a lesbian. Find your own identity that fits. You are allowed to be your own kind of bisexual or pansexual but what you are not, is a lesbian.

Sure, there is a lot of room for being your own person within an identity. I am not the same kind of lesbian as the next dyke. But if I did not fit (or if I no longer fit) the definition of the lesbian identity, I wouldn't call myself one and insist that lesbians expand the definition to include me.

'Butch' as an identity exists within a certain context. It *is not* a synonym to man, and it's also not a synonym to 'a masculine presenting lesbian'. If you don't vibe with the whole 'chivalry' concept and the specific ways in with butch/femme courtship (as an example) happens, maybe consider if this is the right label for you before insisting that we expand or rather completely rewrite the definition to exclude those things from it.

Some of the discourse around 'we should redefine butch!' reminds me of the discourse around redefining manhood. "It's not fair that men are expected to have masculine hobbies," they say. "It's not fair that men cannot wear glitter and makeup and retain their manhood. It's not fair that men are expected to open doors, and carry heavy things, and to-to---" Yes. You are exactly right. But butches are not men.

'Butch' is an opt-in identity, not something that society at large expects and requires from you. In other words: if you think femmes gushing about being courted by their butches in what to you appears to be a 1960s play-pretend of patriarchy, is silly, objectifying or demeaning toward one of the parties... consider that maybe 'butch' is not the identity for you. That maybe you are a masculine person with their own unique take on masculinity.

But insisting that we redefine butch is like me insisting that we redefine 'yoga' because I vibe with the gymnastics but I don't like the spiritual aspect of it. I can just go to Pilates instead. Or do yoga and accept that other people in the practice experience it differently.

What I am endlessly tired of, as a femme, is being lectured on what I *should* and *should not* find attractive. I am not somehow betraying feminism, objectifying people and degrading myself by daydreaming of a butch who opens the car door for me or - the absolute horror - brings me flowers on a date. I recognize that other people have the right to their own attraction and that masculine lesbians deserve the freedom to explore masculinity on their own terms and be treated with dignity and respect regardless of where that exploration takes them and regardless of who does or does not find them attractive.

That being said, the whole narrative of 'if you find chivalry hot, then you are objectifying butches and you are, in fact, an entitled selfish person' is tiresome. Not all femmes are women but in being chastised for our turn-ons and romantic daydreams (unless we're the Cool Girl who doesn't like flowers and rolls her eyes at romance) I see a lot of the admonishment directed toward cis straight women who dare to swoon when they read romance where the male lead is courteous and generous.

Except, again, butch/femme *is not* man/woman. It's a particular subculture within the lesbian identity and no one is pressuring anyone into conforming to it.

[officialspec]

can you pleeeeease post your dm sexuality/gender hcs on here.... 🥺 i don't have a twitter but i wanna know. it's like a pandora's box to me now i'm like scratching at the door. let me in

heres the link 2 the thread (mild spoilers btw) ill post a transcript under the cut for ppl who dont have twitter

first off i think laios relationship to sex is super removed for like 50 reasons without even getting into his actual sexuality

he grew up in a place with very repressed ideas about sex and has a lot of fear about asserting his presence in situations

his special interest takes precedent over any social interactions he has and the level of closeness he feels towards people

he has a hard time figuring out his feelings towards other people both bc hes autistic and bc he has freaky deviantart fetishes that make sex in his mind a very abstract concept <- this one is me projecting mostly

that aside, i feel like gender-wise hes attracted to ppl so infrequently it may as well be entirely case-by-case

the idea of him being gay appeals to me from the 'raised with traditional values he Does Not fit into/hasnt begun to question it yet' perspective, i lauve characters who put a lot of stock into performing a role thats expected of them and fail miserably for unknown (gay) reasons

from his perspective tho i dont think he would ever really label himself anything. hes going to pride parades in the shirt+shorts Ally Fit to clap for his friends

hes also 'cis by indifference' imo... i love tmasc laios hcs it just doesnt mesh w his personal history to me. i do think hes got some kind of therian gender thing going on (not trans or nb but a secret third thing) but i cant see him changing anything abt his appearance/pronouns to accommodate that post-canon. hes just doin his thang

falin is in a similar boat for gender. i LOOVE tfem falin but the village repression thing has been bugging at me so i dont think i subscribe to it anymore (canon purist sorry) BUT if u hold that hc i am clapping and cheering regardless

instead i was propagandised to a while back and i LOVEEE the idea that being fused w a male dragon and the residual traits she has after being revived have given her a type of gender euphoria she didnt realise she was missing. a little boygirl swagger if u will

sexuality-wise i also dont think she would care to label herself, shes a lesbian by virtue of only being interested in One woman and zero other people. without marcille i do think shes still exclusively attracted to women, and i like to imagine she might experiment around a bit during her travels post-canon (pre-relationship). hearing abt it might put marcille on the news though

marcille is very simple That is a transfem lesbian. she cant get pregnant, shes obsessed w being femme and all that combined w her half-tallman struggles to be seen as 'properly feminine' by elf standards reads very transfeminine to Me. also her bookboy crush REEKS of comphet its not subtle

i think a more comfortable marcy might have the space to experiment w being elf butch like her manga boys but thats mainly self indulgence for me. utena could have saved her

senshi is gay his whole thing is abt not being able to perform dwarven masculinity to a proper standard (soft hearted, not as strong or rugged as his peers) which is like gaycoding 101. also hes a bear. homosexuality be damned by boy can work a grill

adding onto this i rly think senshi got some type of euphoria from being an elf in the changeling chapters. he was feeling himself so much i think he was using it as an outlet to have fun being a little fem and fruity without needing to justify it. do u understand

i dont have any particular opinions abt him gender-wise beyond that. his bulge is an essential part of his character design but i also saw a transmasc senshi a couple days ago that made me nod my head thoughtfully so i could go either way

chilchuck is cis and bisexual this is just canon. not even just his old man crush on senshi altho i do think thats very funny but they put his ass on a cover themed like hes in a dating sim with all the men and women in the cast and then slapped it in front of a chapter called "bicorn". i simply cant pass up that kind of overt signaling. its so fucking funny what else is there to say truly

izu to ME is a transmasc aroace lesbian (this one has the least basis in canon i just know it to be true) shes a little genderfluid with it nd uses he/she i think. i like to imagine she consistently uses masculine personal pronouns to refer to herself either way tho (boku, ore)

i think izutsumis gender/sexuality is entirely secondary in priorities to her body dysphoria. she has a lot of learning and acceptance 2 do before that kind of self discovery is on the docket and in my mind eschewing gender on some level is part of that. get sillay

shuro is cishet but at least he feels bad about it. next

kabru is a transmasc bisexual this is also practically text. his whole thing of being treated like a doll by milsiril to put in pretty dresses, plus i think it would be pretty easy for him to stealth in the west since tallmen are seen as inherently more masculine than elves

(i also think changing genders is just more common for elves. theyre androgynous enough that it wouldnt be hard and like who in their right miiiiind would be the same gender for 500 years. dwarves too)

i think he started presenting as male socially in the west but didnt need to consider medical transition until he moved to a more mixed culture where other races might see him as a woman

i dont have to explain the bisexual part. have u seen him

namari is a butch bisexual this is just canon straight up. shes not transmasc but i think the default settings for dwarven women is like 4 years of T regardless. shes a hit at all the local cruising spots despite her renfaire nerdisms i know this

and just bc im thinking abt em kiki and kaka are identical and kiki is tfem :} theyre both attracted to women but kaka is a sub so i forgive him

THATS ALL 4 NOW theres a lot of characters so i cant have thoughts abt all of them at once but i hope this was good. im right about everything forever as per usual

[molsno]

I find the notion that trans women's oppression is at least partially based on a systemic hatred of men and masculinity troubling for many reasons. the biggest reason, of course, is that misandry is not real no matter how you attempt to label or define it. but moreover, it's just flat out wrong.

it is true that many forms of transmisogyny consist of some form of misgendering. however, it's ludicrous to call it misandry just because the underlying implication is that the trans woman in question is really a man; if that were the case, then cis men and trans men would be subjected to the same oppression on the basis of their manhood. but no, the misgendering is always simply a cover for something else - something far more insidious.

if a trans woman is loud, outspoken, and argumentative, then she's accused of demonstrating her "male socialization". she's told she's guilty of "mansplaining". when a trans woman is jealous or clingy with her partner, she's accused of expressing "male entitlement" over them, and being "manipulative" and "controlling". when a trans woman is attracted to cis women and talks about her desire to have sex with them, she's accused of being "creepy" or "predatory". she's told she's being "misogynistic" by reducing women (cis women, or "real women" as is usually the implication in this scenario) to just their bodies and valuing them only for their worthiness as sex objects.

if you think about it, though, these arguments mirror regular old misogyny pretty closely! if a cis woman is loud, outspoken, and argumentative, then she's a "bitch", she's "bossy". she's told she needs to "know her place". when a cis woman is jealous or clingy with her partner, she's accused of being "crazy" and "obsessive". and indeed, when a cis woman is attracted to other cis women and talks about her desire to have sex with them, she's accused of being "creepy" or "predatory"!

so why, then, if these statements are really a form of misogyny, does the justification for them hinge on trans women's supposed "maleness"? the answer is simple: biological essentialism. this ideology, in no small part popularized in feminist and queer spaces by terfs, states that "biological males" are predestined by their very nature to prey on and dominate "biological females". and since trans women are "biologically male", it follows then that they are wolves in sheeps' clothing. any presumption of innocence or harmlessness is discarded, and trans women's actions are painted in a new light.

if you accuse a trans woman of being an infiltrator in women's spaces due to her supposed "maleness", then what you've effectively accomplished is the subjugation of an underclass of women. trans women are not considered deserving of respect, compassion, or dignity whatsoever. if you paint a trans woman as a threat to other women, then you can drum up as much outrage and violence against her as you want, and she will have no recourse. and the simple fact of the matter is that the easiest way to do this is to draw attention to her alleged proximity to "maleness".

perhaps you might be thinking that proximity to maleness being used as a justification for oppression implies that misandry actually is real. after all, aren't women of color, butch lesbians, and even black men also subjected to violence due to their perceived proximity to "maleness"?

I understand how one could make that mistake, but that notion fails to engage with the actual material reasoning behind the forms of oppression these groups face: they pose a threat to the cishet white man's absolute dominion. the root of these disparate but related forms of oppression, biological essentialism, is inherently a white supremacist, misogynistic, and conservative ideology. its purpose, much like its ilk, eugenics and phrenology, is to establish a hierarchy in society that places cishet white christian men at the top by asserting that they are inherently biologically superior to all others in every respect.

if you observe people's behavior, you can see that this ideology permeates almost every level of society. cishet white men are elevated to positions of authority without question; their motives are never scrutinized and criticized in the same way that trans women's are, or any of the other oppressed groups mentioned above. if one of these men is misogynistic, if he views women as mere sex objects to be controlled to suit his liking, he will not be punished for it; he is exercising the right that has been given to him by the society people like him have created through centuries of colonialism. even in queer spaces, men are regularly coddled, their misdeeds forgiven or excused for no real reason other than that many queer people have not questioned the assumptions they've internalized.

the notion that trans women are oppressed by misandry is laughable, really, because we are constantly made aware that, due to biological essentialism, TME people will always trust a man over us.

[mommyclaws]

Is everyone willingly ignoring it or when are we going to realize this petty label discourse has always been rooted in misogyny. This started long before Bi Lesbians. Some of you are just too new or simply never paid enough attention to realize the history of this hatred of lesbians. Do any of you remember?

First it was "Butches aren't valid" because they were invading wlw spaces with their "masculinity"

Then it was moved onto: "Trans women aren't valid" because actually they were the ones invading wlw spaces with their "masculinity" The exact same arguement being used against cis women as well.

Then "Pan/Bi women aren't valid" because your attraction to men or anyone other than a woman doesn't belong in wlw spaces.

Then it was "Nonbinary lesbians aren't valid" because if you're "not a woman" by my definition you're invading wlw spaces.

"Asexual/Aro women aren't valid" because your lack of "real" attraction to women doesn't belong in wlw spaces.

"Lesboys aren't valid" because you are invading wlw spaces with your "masculinity"

"Bi/Pan lesbians aren't valid" because your attraction to men or anyone other than a woman doesn't belong in wlw spaces.

Oh wait? Where have we heard those last two before? Wasn't everyone arguing about those SAME issues with Butches/Trans wlw and Pan/Bi wlw?

Yes, exactly. Would any of you take ONE look back and realize this is only repetition of problems we have already decided don't dictate our identities?

They say, "You're not a real lesbian unless you do this and that and even if you do that you'll never be good enough." No matter what lesbains do, there will always be a problem. Why? Because this isnt about being a lesbian, this isnt about women, this is rhetoric started by terfs and it will never be anything more.

Sure, you can follow their rules to feel valid, but you'll never be good enough. You're an invader too because they'll sprinkle in little things to feed the insecurities and rules that THEY fucking created.

You're not a real lesbian unless you're a "gold star lesbain" meaning you've never dated or been attracted to a man. You're not a real lesbian unless you're feminine. You're not a real lesbian unless you hate masculinity.

Which is just translation for: You're not a real wlw unless you hate men and don't deviate from gender norms. And, WHO would've thought! Is exactly what terfs want.

They sink their claws into the newer generations because they don't remember what our community has had to go through, all they see is the fake issues created and they think it's a threat because they're being fed "This is what's valid and this is what's not" and it seems like it's never going to end because women being anything other than passive and simple with their identities are immediately taken as a threat to the community by those who are insecure and need to demand the exclusion of anyone who doesn't follow their rules to feel like theyre part of a group.

Anti-Bi/Pan Lesbians have become sheep because they only surround themselves with online discourse instead of the real issues LGBTQ people face and in their attempt to keep a "clean community" They're more unwelcomed than the people they tell to kill themselves. So caught up in fake problems others or themslves have made up that they fail to grasp the simplest of concepts: Labels DO NOT exist in real life. Labels are created to help people describe how they feel or identify. They are not and have NEVER been a final definition.

Labels are worn HOWever and WHENever the owner feels like it. They're not collars. They're not cages. You can't use them as such. You can't use them against us.

When? WHEN? When did we decide that a label- A WORD- matters MORE than the real life feelings that real life people are experiencing?

Why did we dehumanize the ability to feel attraction and expression?

[cardentist]

Fam how can one be trans in the direction of their assigned sex? I'm not even trying to make the idea sound ridiculous or anything. I'm genuinely curious and want to understand. I thought the whole meaning of trans was that you feel or act in the opposite direction of your assigned sex; if you're transfem but you're afab then to me that's just cisgender??? But like please explain to me how that's not the case if that's what you and others strongly feel so I may grow my compassion

Context: [Link]

well ! while I personally am not intersex, I DO want to highlight intersex people first and foremost.

gender and sex are very Very complex, and I think generally people don't consider the way that being intersex can play a big role in that!

there are intersex people who are afab who are also trans women, there are intersex people who are amab who are trans men, there are intersex people with many Many different relationships with sex and gender and anywhere in between !

an afab person can be born with masculine sex characteristics and transition the way trans women often do. that person May identify as trans, they may not ! that trans person may not even consider themselves a woman depending on who they are and what they want !

I Do think there needs to be an effort to be aware of and make space for intersex people within the trans community, and really the wider queer community as a whole. as it's often something that's given a footnote without deeper thought into the ways that intersex people Actually interact with our communities.

which I don't blame people for not already knowing ! that's the whole point of trying to educate people in the first place ^^

.

and as for Myself

labels are, ultimately, a form of gender presentation. what you call yourself is an extension of not only how you see yourself, but how Other People perceive you.

I could call myself nonbinary or I could call myself trans masc, and both would be Accurate. but people have certain traits and expectations and associations when they see those labels. there are assumptions made about the kind of life that I live, the things that I want, the things I might experience, that change depending on which labels that I use.

and that's not Inherently a bad thing ! I mean, that's part of why people Like labels. but it Can be a struggle for people whose gender is Funny.

I could Also describe myself as genderqueer or multi-gender or genderfluid or gnc or-. I've tried on lots and lots of labels, and for the most part I haven't thrown any of them out, I just keep them in a box under my bed and take them out when relevant.

I've been wrestling with the feminine aspect of my identity for a very Very long time. I've been aware that I'm some level of trans masc. that part was easy. I want a deeper voice, I want things about my body to change, I don't want people to look at me and see a cis woman.

but I Also like femininity. I've found that after accepting myself as trans masc and slowly growing an environment where I am Perceived as masculine, I've started getting euphoria at presenting femininely in the Same way that I did (and do!) get about presenting masculinely.

but that feeling doesn't carry over when I'm perceived as a cis woman. it's Quite Uncomfortable for obvious gender reasons.

and while I may not know the exact Words that I'd use to describe it (as I've said, I've been chewing on it for Many years now), I've gotten a clearer idea of how I Feel.

I want to be Visibly trans. I want to be perceived masculinely And femininely. I want to transition masculinely to present femininely (and sometimes butch, sometimes like your dad at the ace hardware store, I contain multitudes).

and of course, figuring out what I have going on has involve a lot of exploration ! it's the same way I figured out the whole trans masc thing in the first place. seeking out other trans people and other Things About trans people feeling things out.

I find ! that I have a lot of shared experiences with transfeminine people. both in how I feel about certain things, some of the presentation that I want, and in how people would React To said presentation.

my femininity Is Trans, I don't relate to cis womanhood. but I Do relate to trans femininity. which is really awkward for me, because it's difficult to describe it to other people fjksldljkasfdjklfasd

(I don't personally consider myself a trans woman mind, but I'm certain there Are people who are trans men and trans women at the same time. gender is complicated, sex is complicated. labels are malleable and sometimes situational)

Could I describe myself with a different label? probably ! I've got lots of them. but when I Don't put emphasis on this aspect of myself people assume that it's not there. insist that it Couldn't be there, and I don't know what I'm talking about. and those people who Would act nasty towards me probably aren't gonna change their mind just because I changed my bio. but it feels Nice to assert that aspect of myself when other people are trying to tear it down.

.

part of me feels like I should post the intersex portion of this by itself, because people tend to engage more with shorter posts and there's nothing Short about my gender situation ljkfdasjkls

but ! I dunno, if this makes even one person understand the gray areas of gender and presentation a little more it'll be worth it.

thank you for taking the time to ask ! and especially for doing so kindly ! I do hope you'll see this

[genderkoolaid]

i think the reason why a lot of queer trans men, esp nb/gq ones, are attached to the "butch" label is because the popular narrative of trans men is not just heterosexual but in a painfully square way. it depicts (overwhelmingly white) masculine men who want to date a pretty feminine straight girl and have two kids and a picket fence. and thats not inherently bad, but like...

for me, being butch is, above all else, genderqueer masculinity that people do not want me to have. i am attracted to women, and i am a woman, but being butch is not just "masculine sapphic woman." its about capturing the pain of being masculine/male in an unacceptable & unacceptably queer way. butch identity & butch aesthetics communicate a masculine gender identity that refuses to conform, & thats true even if you aren't attracted to women at all!

theres a need to soothe cissexist/exorsexist anxiety around butchness, to heal the genderqueerness by reducing it to solely "what some straight men do before they realize they Normal Straight Men" or "Womanly Women being masculine but in a Woman Way." but butchness has always been a genderqueer space. i refuse to resolve my identity into discrete maleness and lesbianness and womanness to make people comfortable! no not all butches want to be men. but sometimes its more about rejecting cishet manhood than manhood itself. butchhood can be own kind of manhood, especially when you are excluded from it otherwise. you can either swallow butch trans*ness or choke on it.

[headspace-hotel]

hi, so i do have a question regarding trans people- i completely support trans people and people should have the right to do whatever they want to as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and i would never side with those who try to take away someone's autonomy. that being said, why do people want to be the specific genders(men, women)- what exactly does one feel? is it identifying with gender stereotypes? wanting the other kind of body? i can understand why someone would want to be enby, but can't seem to understand specific reasons why people would want to be transmasc or transfem etc. i've read posts before where people have wanted to be women/men because of gender stereotypes- they wanted to play with dolls/liked feminine/masculine colors/clothes etc. but it's obviously something that shouldn't be stereotyped against and anyone should be allowed to play/like anything they want to, whether it's feminine or masculine. so what exactly is it that makes people want to be either? again, though even if i didn't understand why someone else felt that way, i fully support them.

I'm not even transgender in any flavor so I'm not the best person to ask, but I'm pretty sure the answer is going to be individual for every person.

I think like, the larger society has latched onto the narrative of "I always wanted to play with 'girl' toys and do 'girly' things" because that's what makes sense to a cisgender audience in a culture where behavior and clothing and toys are very obviously gendered.

But that's not, like, what "makes" someone transgender—it's a way of explaining it.

I mean, okay, maybe I can talk about this a little. I'm a cis woman. I've thought about it! I like being female, it feels comfortable to me, and experimentally imagining anything else feels...bad.

This has nothing to do with gender stereotypes—I don't shave, I don't wear makeup, I usually cut my hair super-short, I'll wear my brothers' clothes if I like them, I always actively hated the "girl" toys as a kid (though I was never labeled a 'tomboy'—I feel like autism overpowered any specific gendered label that would otherwise apply to me, for complicated reasons. I was a Weird kid). It's just...I don't know. It's nice when one of my friends in chat in a game i'm playing calls me "she"—like hell yeah! Your mental concept of me is a girl :D

If anything, I started to feel more "woman" when I started dressing and styling more masculine—it was actually seeing pictures of butch lesbians online that made me see an image of myself I liked for the first time. I wanted to be a woman who's like a guy at the auto parts store.

I think some people just have no internal sense at all about their gender, and some of these people probably ID as non-binary, and some of these people probably just identify with whatever they were assigned because that's what's convenient. There are no wrong answers here, right?

And some people have a really strong unwavering internal sense about it, and it's not exactly able to be distilled down to feelings about your body or clothes or interests or whatever, but it exists. I know that I "feel" like a woman even though I couldn't say why. It's somewhere in between "this feels accurate" and "this feels nice."

[genderqueerdykes]

so im transmasculine nonbinary and identify a lot with masculinity and butchness, im also over a year on T. i dont consider myself a woman at all, but i find that my attraction to women feels FAR more like being a lesbian than being straight. at the same time, i prefer not to label my sexuality because lesbian isnt a term i want to use, but i did use it when i was younger. is it weird that i still want to date queer women who ID as lesbians sometimes? it makes me feel predatory when im attracted to lesbians, like those cis guys who think they can "fix them," but its really not my intention to be gross.

nope that's not weird!

i really need to stress the amount of nonbinary & transmasculine people who feel this way, it's really not uncommon or weird! i know this website is heavily populated by terves but this is such a common part of the butch & lesbian experience that it's totally normal and SHOULD be accepted! it's okay if you want to use the term lesbian for yourself, and it's okay that you want to date people who identify as lesbians! there's nothing here stopping you from doing so!

again the overlap between transmasculine and lesbian identities is so strong, not every single transmasc person is a butch lesbian and not every single butch lesbian is transmasculine or a trans man, but the overlap is so high that it's totally normal for this to happen and it's a beautiful thing to embrace! you're not being predatory, you're just expressing the fact that your attraction is sapphic- sapphicism and lesbianism are not locked or tied to genders. nonbinary people especially may do whatever they please, but even male identifying people can in fact have these identities! nothing wrong with that!

hope that helps! good luck in figuring yourself out! it sounds like you know what you're about! go ahead and use what feels comfortable, you're not hurting anyone, especially if you inform wheover you'd like to date about how you identify up front- if they choose to date you, you're not being predatory, that is an agreed upon relationship! it's not predatory to want to date people you're attracted to. take care of yourself!

[cowboyjen68]

hi cowboyjen! im a lesbian in my 20s and i need some advice -- i really would like to use the butch label for myself but i hesitate because i worry others dont see me as "butch enough," so what makes a butch, butch?

Butch is something I came into because of my shared experiences with other butches. I see it as partly how I am percieved but also how I see myself in the world. It plays a part in how I relate to to other women and how women relate to me.

Not everyone who wears masculine clothing is butch (ask the women farmers around rural Iowa who are straight LOL) and being butch does entail a certian about of experiences that are common. Butches can't shake off how they are seen by others with clothing or hair styles. The energy is contast and often confuses others into being unsure if we are a man or woman upon first or even second glances.

Butch enough is not really something I put too much stock in. Butches come in all sizes, abilities and have varied jobs and interests.

The most common shared butch stories are being called Sir when someone does a quick take. Being told we "should have been a boy" or "why do you want to look like a man". We look (and feel) obviously awkward in women's dress clothing. I and all my butch friends have several stories of being ushered from or told we are in the wrong bathroom. EVEN when I had a pony tail. We get told by straight women they "wish we were men" or we "must be better than men because we understand women but are still.. you know.. manly".

Aesthetically we tend to prefer men's (read utilitarian) and short hair (again read utilitarian) but this can vary. It is a bit of a generalization. Comfortable clothing is chosen over just pleasing to look at. Let me be clear, there is NOTHING wrong with dressing in things other consider "uncomfortable) because you want to be attractive to any give group of people. Don't yuck other's yum. We all have the right to our tastes but I am speaking from a butch perspective.

Find older butches who resemble you. SIze, body shape etc and talk with them. Butch certianly does not fit everyone but in general those women who feel "butch" speaks to them is probably more accurate about themselves than others can be.

It is perfecty fine to try Butch on for size, just don't get a bit old tattoo or change all your social media right away. GIve yourself some time to decide, Yeah for me or Nah not for me.

[disappointeddyke]

sis you can't be a lesbian if you call yourself non binary i'm a lesbian and find you toxic af like is their something wrong with just being a lesbian woman omfg ugh

Love how you couldn’t come off anon to say this lmaoooooo. Anyways, I understand these two identities sound contradictory…I really do. Up until a few years ago I also didn’t understand how someone who is nonbinary could simultaneously be a lesbian until I started learning more about our history. It can be difficult to understand unless it’s an identity that you live and exist in. I personally think it’s toxic af for you to tell someone that their identity is invalid when you have no idea whatsoever how it feels to exist in a nonbinary body…..so I’ll take this opportunity to educate you just a little. Lesbianism actually has a very large history of embracing gender non conformity. The first stripe on the lesbian flag even stands for “gender non conformity” (you can google what each stripe represents!). Most people assume being non binary means that you are genderless but the reality is that for many people this label encapsulates a range of complex identities that incorporate a lot of relations to masculinity and femininity. Being non binary is so deeply unique to every individual who identifies as such. Personally, I am not a man but identifying fully as a “women” does not and has never (since I was as little as I can remember) felt accurate for me but I would say my gender is still more closely female aligned than male aligned. I honestly don’t even like labels or really use them often irl but on tumblr the tagging system helps with finding community so I use them almost exclusively on tumblr for that purpose alone. I might’ve lost you here but this is the part where you just may not ever get it unless you yourself are a nonbinary lesbian and I’m cool with that! I don’t owe you any in depth explanation of my gender but I also understand that sometimes people just need to be educated a little. I highly encourage you to look into some queer literature and/or more into the history of gender non conformity within the lesbian community since you seem to be pretty concerned about the topic. Here is one easily accessible article about non binary lesbians written by a nonbinary butch lesbian.

[cock-holliday]

Yknow for as much as I have learned so much about gender from trans and nonbinary and other people, I have learned a good bit from cis people too.

I have been fortunate to meet lots of cis folks who have explored their gender, done lots of research into the topic, and are sometimes more knowledgeable about diverse experiences with gender than some trans folks I know—while still concluding they are cis.

There is an immense beauty in laying everything about gender on the table, and discarding what you don’t like and choosing what you do. Of course a good example is GNC people but I don’t even just mean that.

Feminine cis women who treat femininity a bit like drag. Masculine men whose masculinity is modeled after butch women. Cis people who are attracted to and admire queer gender expression.

Once you see cis people do peculiar and liberating things with gender while not rejecting the label—but rather modifying what the label means—it becomes extremely satisfying to do the same.

There are things about my AGAB I like. There are aspects of femininity/masculinity associated with my AGAB that I missed terribly when I came out as a binary trans person. To see cis people take ownership of their gender in ways I had only ever seen trans people do with the gender they moved to was eye-opening.

It’s choice, it’s autonomy, it’s an awareness and intentionality of gender expression while still being their AGAB.

There are trans people who never felt connected to their AGAB, “I was never a girl, I was always a boy.” There are trans people who acknowledge their AGAB and have left it behind, “I was a boy but now I am a woman.”

There is no uniformity in what it means to be trans and then frankly there doesn’t have to be (and there isn’t) uniformity in how to be cis.

There is deconstruction of gender happening all over the place, across cis and trans, binary and not, secret third options and 52nd options and it’s so exciting to see.

If cis doesn’t even mean you have to be shackled to societal expectations then trans definitely doesn’t—and that’s beautiful and hopeful to see.

[lesbian-polls]

Wait sorry, what’s wrong with m-spec lesbians? I thought that was what lots of butches were? 😭 sorry I’m from a conservative area + wasn’t allowed internet until I left home so I haven’t had much interaction with the queer community

Since you ask in good faith I'll give you a good faith answer.

M-spec doesn't mean "masculine presenting" it means your attraction is in the masculine spectrum of the gender spectrum, so men and male aligned-NB people (non-binary is not a third gender, it's a collection of every gender that I'd neither 100% woman or 100% man)

Butches tend to present masculine, this doesn't make them men.

A lesbian is a woman or woman-aligned NB person who is attracted to the same gender. That is, other women and woman aligned NB people.

The problem with m-spec and bi "lesbians" is that they're not lesbians at all, they're bi or pan people most of the time who are attracted to men but try to usurp the lesbian label and turn it into a synonym for sapphic or woman-loving-woman.

Lesbianism is the only sexuality that excludes men, both as targets of attraction and emitters of that attraction. Therefore we are being shamed into being attracted to men by this group of people. Hell, they even try to take the reclaimed d-slur.

It's an act of lesbophobia, homophobia (two different kinds of oppression btw) biphobia (bi and pan people have a history of fighting for their own label and protested against being called gays or lesbians) and transphobia since many of m-spec 'lesbians' and their supporters are trans men who claim they have a connection to womanhood by having the "right parts" which isn't true in the slightest and also hurts trans women, many of whom are lesbians as well.

Even misogyny, since m-spec and bi 'lesbians' can't stand the fact that we don't need men in our lives and that bothers them since in their mind everyone needs to center men in their lives.

Would you see gay men being told to include women in their sexuality? No, right? It's the misogyny as well.

Most bi 'lesbians' and their supporters also happen to be white, shielding themselves with their privilege.

To sum it up: m-spec 'lesbians' aren't butches or lesbians at all, they're bi and pan people who disregard their own history and struggle to try and steal our label from us, inspired by homophobia, biphobia, lesbophobia, misogyny and transphobia. They'll call us TERFs (many of us are trans women mind you) while employing TERF points themselves like with the trans man argument.

If you have more questions feel free to DM me. And, if you are not a lesbian please don't vote in the polls since they're for lesbians only. I made this blog as a safe space for lesbians due to our safe spaces on this accursed website being eroded (if you say you're a bi lesbian in a lesbian bar they'll laugh at you since this is online-only problem) and I'd like to keep it that way

EDIT:

This user is right, I got the two mixed up. M-spec is multi-spectrum

[scarfacemarston]

Tbh i headcanon Sadie as bi. Obviously Jake was super important to her and we see it through not only her actions but also the way she speaks about him. Imo she was in love with that man. Though her interactions with Abigail and the other woman of the camp also eludes to some sort of attraction there too. As a queer woman myself (I don’t really like to label myself as I get too in my head about it) I relate to Sadie and how she is as a person. I do also want to add though, the problem allot of fandoms have when it comes to more masculine women and the argument that about on if they are gay or not. Straight women can be masculine the same way queer women can be feminine. I think arguing about whether or not a woman is gay only off of how “masculine” she is feels very odd and gross to me. TLDR: I love Sadie and people need to stop arguing with each other over headcanons <3

I agree about head canoning Sadie as bi and how she viewed Jake! People base what's masc or femme or not too much on looks or personality instead of someone's entire being. Sadie is an entire person. She shouldn't be reduced to such a question. She might have some masc traits. Some have called it "butch" traits in the fandom. I'm not sure what I would call it because I tend to be more gender neutral on a lot of things. I think it's the idea that there "HAS" to be a "man" in the relationship and a "woman" in a wlw relationship. People do it with mlm relationships, too. The thing is, it's reductive. Like, Abigail may be a wife and a mother, but people shouldn't reduce her to that feminine role. Sadie is an example of how being a wife can appear differently. It's no less or more feminine. Gender Identity is so flexible and it was certainly flexible in the "Old West". I agree there is too much stock put into masc vs feminine. I think representation is important, but stereotyping and placing hetronormative ideas of "who is the man and who is the woman" is wrong.

I also agree that arguing over hc's is ridiculous. Unless it's legit harmful, live and let live.