#meta-tuesday

[ladystoneboobs]

so, one aspect of catelyn which i think is underrated (certainly the biggest adaptation loss which nobody talks about) is her, let's say superstitiousness, or better yet, let's call it genre-savviness, being one of the few adult characters open to magic and the supernatural in this fantasy world. we first meet her in the godswood, home of gods which are not truly hers, yet she is still very aware of their power. when she and ned talk of the deserter he killed, he hopes he won't have to go with the nw to deal with mance rayder, but she has even more fear of that idea bc there are worse things beyond the wall than just wildlings. ned scoffs and says she's been listening to old nan too much, but she's right. we already know from the prologue that she's right! and here she is, understanding the genre of their world better than her husband, who was actually born and spent his earliest years in this northern land of deep magic, listening to old nan's stories. same with the direwolves, where she was uncomfortable with them at first, but later believed in them as guardians from the old gods even after robb had lost his own faith. and once again, we know she's right even if she doesn't know the evidence to back up her instincts, bc summer and shaggydog did not fail bran and rickon and robb was almost certainly a warg like his brothers. (perhaps making it more fitting that she's the one brought back as a fantasy vengeance monster, not ned and robb, the most unbelieving dead starks.) and in her 2nd agot chapter, everyone focuses on her ambition in wanting ned to agree to the hand job (pun intended) and sansa's betrothal, and while she does recognize the value of their daughter being a future queen more than ned does, that's only her stated argument bc she thinks it's rational enough for ned to listen to. (if ambitious matchmaking were as important to her as to her father she never would have made those frey betrothals fandom loves to blame her for.) in her own head there's a deeper urge driving her. she keeps thinking of the dead direwolf with antlers in its throat, an omen which filled her with dread from the first she heard of it, before robert's arrival, and thinking of it again is what makes her desperate to convince ned not to refuse robert. she had to make him see. and really, she's not wrong, as jon snow would say. the dead direwolf was an omen of ned and robert getting each other killed. it's just one of those misread portents, with no way of knowing the danger to ned was in his loyalty to robert, not conflict with him. BUT the next time she's dealing with baratheons, she knows exactly what she's talking about. it's catelyn, not brienne, who sees the shadow slaying renly, and explains that it was stannis who did that through some dark magic. with no way of knowing how it was achieved and no prior expectation that such a thing were ever possible, she realizes with no hestitation that stannis was guilty and that his red witch was capable of pulling this off somehow. really, the only instinct of the supernatural she's wholly wrong about is her insistence that varys gathered his knowledge through some dark enchantment. however, though that might offend varys, given his own personal experience with a sorcerer, i'd say it's a reasonable assumption without knowing the dude had children moving through walls everywhere like oversized rodents. and imo it just shows she had a healthy respect and awe for varys's power which most other characters lack.

oh, oh, and let's not forget that she also believed in the curse of harrenhal, from her own childhood and the stories old nan told her kids. "and every house that held Harrenhal since had come to misfortune. Strong it might be, but it was a dark place, and cursed. 'I would not have Robb fight a battle in the shadow of that keep,' Catelyn admitted." sure, that wasn't enough to save robb, but he did not die from the curse of harrenhal. that doom was meant for his enemies from tywin lannister to roose bolton.

[disco-troy]

Today on the “dc accidentally parallels Bruce’s relationship with his kids with Actual Supervillains” we have Bruce and Joker with Jason.

Jason calmly looking into the eyes of the men who just rewired his brain to fit their ideals asking “why?”

Jason panel 1: ..Batman? You did something to me… what did you do?

Jason panel 2 (to the joker): what did you do to me? Joker: I gave you the tiniest tiny est dose of joker toxin. So small. Just enough to bring back that psychotic alter ego of yours in your head.

It’s the last thing he can do after all the self determination was taken for him. The closest he can get to a rebellion after rendered powerless by his own brain. It’s asking why and never getting a response. Once from his father and once from his murderer. But the result is still the same.

Joker goes even farther with this metaphor, likening himself to Jason’s mother.

Joker: doesn’t mommy gets a say?

This has the idea of further drawing a parellel between what Joker and Bruce are to Jason in this arc. They are forces that shape him and make him what they want. It doesn’t matter what Jason wants or even needs, because “parents know best”. The truth is, for both of Jason’s “parents” Jason’s well-being is just an excuse for them to change him for their own benefit. Bruce wants Jason to stop fighting crime in Gotham like “a bull in a china shop” and wants to assuage his guilt about what Jason has gone through. Joker wants to fuck with Batman. In this way Jason just becomes a causality in his own life.

What makes the comparison between Bruce and Joker even more tragic is that it’s because of Bruce’s machinations that Jason was vulnerable enough to be taken by the joker in the first place…

Still skittish I see, my poor little vigilante. What did he do to you? Jason: please just let me go Joker: I can’t stand to see you like this. Mean old Batman mucked around in your little head and made you so scared of everything. But don’t worry. I came to text out my new project and fix you at the same time.

Something which the Joker explicitly acknowledges!

And the way that Jason was left alone and vulnerable after Jason literally saved Gotham by driving a plane into a fucking meteor AND immediately went to comfort Bruce?! Like this implies AFTER Jason acted as an emotional crutch, Bruce didn’t even go let’s put you in contact with Babs so you are not running around with fear in your veins and no one to support you?

To reiterate: dc why are you having Batman do the same things to his kids that supervillains do

[dceasesd]

why juni ba’s the boy wonder has my favorite jason characterization of any contemporary comic run: a needlessly in-depth analysis (pt.3)

go check out part 1 and part 2 if you'd like! this is a long one, sorry guys.

if you haven't already i'd recommend you check out pt. 1 & pt. 2 (linked above), but if you haven't checked them out i've been going over some of the main things people have been criticizing ba's characterization for: 1. the typical boiling down of jason's character to "the angry one" 2. his lack of strategy going into the fight with the demon is out-of-character 3. the neighbor's kid interaction

alright, so this last point is purely based off of one page of the entire comic: the one where the child of one of jason's neighbors is dragged inside his home when his mother see's jason coming.

first off, i love this page. it might be my favorite page in the entire issue. everything about it is great. just thought i needed to say that.

anyway, there's some people who are seeing this page and reading it as "jason protects kids! that's one of his big things! why are they scared of him?"

here's the thing, though: the kid isn't scared of jason, the mom is. the kid is literally playing dress up as the red hood-- he's not scared of jason, if anything he's trying to replicate him. little kids dress up as their heroes all the time; why is this kid any different? it doesn't really make sense for the kid to dress up of something he's scared of (not everyone is as weird bruce wayne), especially a real person that could be a real threat rather than a concept. i doubt you see many kids in gotham dressing up as the joker or something, because that's just asking for trouble.

the dress-up honestly seems like a ploy for attention to me. the kid clearly knows that red hood lives in his building (which is honestly so funny. take off the mask jason you're giving you're position away (actually this is a really good instance for analysis but i'm determined to not go on a tangent)). if the kid knows red hood lives in his building, what better way to get his attention that dressing up as him and playing pretend? if the kid was scared of him, he wouldn't want to draw that sort of attention to himself. if he had a sort of hero-worshippy thing going on like i suspect, then he would want to get jason's attention. to sum it up,

it's the mom who pulls him away when jason nears, because she either a) perceives him as a threat, b) doesn't want her kid to try and replicate him even more, or, the most likely option, both! the kid isn't scared of him, but the mother believes they should be.

once again, we come back to the whole perception vs. reality theme i talked about in part one! we've come full circle, everyone!

when looking at the neighborhood's perspective of the red hood, ba gives us a few contradictory examples. there's the kid and the mother, obviously, but there's also a slew of other citizens who interact with him at the beginning of the issue, both in fear and camaraderie.

the unhoused man and the people outside of his building clearly have a familiarity and are comfortable with him, while the shopkeeper is terrified and literally has a banned poster on his wall featuring jason (i am so curious what he did to deserve that, if he even did anything at all). from this, it appears that jason's reputation teeters between fearful and familiar-- a sentiment that also colors jason's relationship with his family.

furthermore, this concept underscores just how lonely jason is-- one of the only good relationships he had in his current life was his fucking landlord, for gods sake, and he's dead.

i think it's important to note that jason doesn't respond to the friendly greetings from the men-- he could attempt to build camaraderie, the roots are there, but he chooses not to. he could work to try and show the mother that her son is safe with him, but he chooses not to. why? jason is obviously lonely (as ba states in the panel below) and he caves pretty easily when damian asks him for help (both of them are so desperate for human interaction its tragic). so why does he distant himself from the community?

obviously it is in part due to the vigilante lifestyle, but it is also jason's perception of himself and how he believes others perceive him, especially in regards to his family (ba is literally hitting readers in the head with that theme baseball bat).

he doesn't see that the kid with the mask looks up to him, all he sees is the mother pulling him away. he sees the banned poster in the store. and, as ba narrates, "he was sure he'd been forgotten about" by his family. utrh is jason's twisted way of attempting to reach out and connect with bruce, and obviously that doesn't work-- so he chooses loneliness over rejection.

like in part one, though, damian refutes this idea by describing bruce's perspective, showing how what jason believes differs from actuality. bruce hasn't forgotten about him and doesn't hate him, as he suspected, but instead harbors guilt over the situation and desires to make it better, which jason must come to understand to be able to open the locked door and begin to move past his trauma.

so, that's what the little kid in the red hood outfit looks like to me. i actually have a lot more i'd like to say about the boy wonder, especially in regards to the whole "door to my past life" thing and what ba does with lighting and blocking in his artwork, so i may do a little post on that as well! i was gonna try and shove it into this one, but i've run out of room! i hope you guys liked my analysis, if you'd like to chat about the boy wonder or any other comics, my dms, asks, and reblogs are happily open! thanks for reading! :)) <3

pt. 1 / pt. 2

[bromcommie]

tbh I still think Brock Rumlow was an interesting character and upon further examination way more unsettling a villain than most to me because like. Let’s be real, the second you lay eyes on Robert Redford as Pierce monologuing in his pristine suit and glass office high up in the sky he just screams Evil Politician! at you. You can see it coming a mile away. Meanwhile Rumlow is….Just Some Guy. On the surface, he’s just some side dude. He’s not enhanced, he’s not in some major position of power, he’s just someone who’s really good at what he does and seems dedicated enough to the work and functions well with his team. He respects Steve, might admire him even, but not so much that he gets starry eyed like everybody else. He’s lighthearted but focused, he’s no nonsense, he’s the everyman Steve can relate to way more than spooks like Natasha or Fury.

And okay, maybe what Rumlow does for a living is beat intimidate and kill people, but it’s not like that’s the primary objective, right, because SHIELD are the good guys and this is what Steve does now, too, anyway; except that Steve doesn’t really use any weapons other than the shield, he holds back, he doesn’t carry a gun anymore which is usually fine since he’s dangerous enough without it. But when that leaves him vulnerable, he’s covered: Rumlow’s got his six, and he does it well, and he earns some of his trust. This is familiar to Steve.

And maybe Rumlow’s a little too good, fine, maybe he shoots a guy in the head within the first fifteen minutes of the movie when he doesn’t necessarily have to and then cracks jokes immediately after but that’s alright too, because that guy had Steve at gunpoint and that guy was Bad whereas Rumlow is One of the Good Guys just doing his job, right. Rumlow’s joking around because he’s used to the violence, they’re all used to it, and this is just how it works. They’re just soldiers doing the grunt work and following orders, and this is familiar, too.

Except that they’re not soldiers and this isn’t a war, except that the work is for an intelligence agency whose job it is to hoard and steal information and monitor civilians and orchestrate and sabotage and meddle in internal and external state affairs. Except that the Good Guys, in reality, are extremely grey at best. Except that many of the Good Guys turn out to be Nazis on top of everything else, and it’s not that far of a stretch.

But when it’s all starting to unravel, you’re still thinking well maybe some of these guys didn’t know. Maybe they didn’t do it out of individual belief, and if faced with the right choice, they can be redeemed.

That is until you realize that Rumlow maybe didn’t respect Steve and what he did so much as what Steve could do if only Steve weren’t “weak” in other ways, if Steve had chosen the right side. That it not being personal is less a cop out and more a taunt the same way just following orders has always been, for Rumlow and many many men that came before him and will continue to come after. Until the vault when, by the most charitable of interpretations, Rumlow looks at the Winter Soldier letting himself be smacked around and crying and getting shocked like he’s maybe a little unnerved (if not just downright fascinated) by the whole thing, but not enough that it really changes anything for him, because the end justifies the means and it’s not really his problem, anyway.

Until Sam shows up and Rumlow looks at him like a bird of prey and says This is gonna hurt with a fucking smile on his face, and then you think: shit, man, obviously. How was it not clear from the start.

To me, what makes someone like Rumlow a good villain, even a side one, is not that he’s straight up Insane & Evil™️ or suffering from Tragic Backstory Syndrome or all hopped up on magic superstrength juice or whatever, but precisely the fact that he’s Just Some Guy with a cockroach survival mentality who operates well within the established system and just so happens to be really good at his job - a job that he might’ve even joined thinking it was for a good cause, or because he had something to prove, or simply because it gave him one hell of an excuse to be a bully. Because he either wholeheartedly believes in HYDRA or he just doesn’t give much of a shit either way so long as he gets his due in the end, and both are just as bad.

Because when you strip away all the grand scale superhero theatrics, you’ve seen this before. You’ve seen Rumlows in your school and in your neighborhood and in the military and the cop car patrolling your street. They’re the ones who sometimes say or do somewhat offputting shit but you figure it’s fine because they’re otherwise real nice or charismatic or normal looking, or maybe they work a job that’s framed as helpful or protective or inherently good despite the power dynamics at play, or they share your background and interests and you chat about the weather being crap this time of year.

And every time one of them turns out to be a violent, hateful piece of shit, you’re still somehow surprised then, too, when you really shouldn’t be.

[zahri-melitor]

Just because it needs to be said: Tim pulling Dick off someone who he’s punching in a righteous rage is a GOOD THING. Dick feels intense guilt after these incidents if he actually hurts the person.

(Cue minor breakdown)

If you care about Dick as a character at ALL, Dick’s anger having a rein on it is avoiding SO MUCH ANGST later on.

Because it needs to be said again: Zdarsky is clearly, CLEARLY referencing Transference.

(Gotham Knights #10)

(Joker Last Laugh #6)

(Batman #138)

These are the SAME CHARACTER BEATS.

Dick’s righteous fury about harm done to a member of the family. Tim pulling Dick off because he knows how Dick will feel about this when he calms down.

And if you don’t believe me that Zdarsky is thinking about Transference:

(Gotham Knights #11)

Here Bruce installed a mental block to stop himself accessing his memories until someone recited the Oath.

(Batman #138)

Here Dick’s override access to Bruce’s central computer includes reciting the Oath, and he’s doing it to protect them from a mentally-controlled Bruce.

It’s obvious to me what is being referenced here and while I love watching Dick lose it and start punching as much as the next person when someone deserves his rage, I also am aware of the eventual fallout. So you know, maybe think on that.

[jojo-schmo]

Cozy 😴

[theerurishipper]

I really need Nightwing to be taken away from TT post-haste. I can't take it anymore. This whole dumb ass plot is so nonsensical and relies heavily on everyone in the room losing all sense of logic and reason. If Dick Grayson was any kind of in character this whole plot would have been over before you could say "Heartless fucking sucks." Please god when will the nightmare end

[coldflasher]

thinking about barry canonically being quick to heal, suffering so many grievous injuries throughout the course of his life, but never ever being visibly permanently scarred regardless of the severity of his wounds (discounting savitar, which was a special case), versus the widely accepted fanon of len being badly scarred from years of abuse (a theory which has strong canon evidence in support of it, given that we've seen lisa has scars from that same abuse)

also thinking about barry being loud and open about his trauma to the point that everyone thinks he's crazy vs. len being closed off and never really opening up about his history properly with anyone, never allowing himself to be seen uncovered, endeavouring to hide both his physical and emotional wounds from the world

just. thinking about that juxtaposition. barry has no physical marks and yet his trauma is in some ways far more visible than len's, as len is marked physically by his past experiences but does everything he can to not acknowledge or address them

not sure where i'm going with this. but it's interesting.

[ladystoneboobs]

possibly incomplete list of asoiaf characters described as having red or even "ginger" hair (or red-gold as opposed to red-brown or ghiscari red-black), never auburn:

mycah, the butcher's boy*

beric dondarrion (red-gold hair)*

lharys, member of the three stooges men-at-arms (wild rust-colored hair)**

unnamed and unfortunate mother of robert baratheon's doomed youngest child, barra (light red-haired mother of black-haired baby)*

tomard aka "fat tom", stark guardsman (with his ginger whiskers)*

horas "horror" redwyne (orange hair)*

hobber "slobber" redwyne (orange hair)*

unnamed red-haired whore leaning out a window the day of ned's execution (presumably not the same as above since she was joking about the king's death)*

melisandre of asshai (deep burnished copper. red and terrible and red.)*

a man called jaqen h'ghar (red on one side, white on the other)*

pug-nosed dancy from chataya's brothel (described as red-haired by tyrion in acok but honey-blonde in asos, so presumably hair dye must have been involved between those book mentions.)**

addam marbrand (hair the same copper color as his horse's mane)*

"ginger-headed" maester frenken*

unnamed beardless ginger youth among theon's crew at winterfell*

ygritte, a spearwife "kissed-by-fire" (bright red)*

arryk aka "left" or "right", lady olenna's red-mustached guardsman*

erryk aka "left" or "right", lady olenna's other, identical, red-mustached guardsman*

lord paxter redwyne (tufts of orange hair)**

anguy the archer of the bwb*

a red-bearded karstark rapist dead in a crow cage at stoney sept*

tansy, innkeeper of the peach in stoney sept*

meryn trant (rust-red hair)*

"red" ronnet connington

mero, "the titan's bastard", former commander of the second sons (bushy red-gold beard)

a red-headed soldier who came with stannis to the wall

shadrich "the mad mouse" (bristly orange hair)*

lord rykker's red-mustached maester

marwyn belmore, lysa's former guard captain (ginger-headed)*

lord benedar belmore with a beard that was "a ginger-grey horror"*

lord orton merryweather (reddish-orange hair)

"the red oarsman", one of euron greyoy's followers (fiery red hair)

unnamed red-haired sailor arriving at port in braavos*

lord clement piper

and his son lewys "little lew" piper, who served as squire to jaime lannister in the riverlands

unnamed red-haired youth who first escaped northward with varamyr from the battle at the wall

one of illyrio's washerwomen (dull red hair)**

jon connington (once red hair gone to grey, still red at the roots and eyebrows even when the rest was dyed blue. also had a bright red beard as a younger man.)**

rolly "duck" duckfield (a shock of orange hair)**

a young man among the wildling refugees at mole's town whose red hair reminded jon of ygritte*

the "sunset kingdoms" girl raped by tyrion in the brothel where he was captured by jorah**

hagen's daughter, only other woman among asha greyjoy's crew

roggon rustbeard, one of asha's men

mully of the nw (greasy orange hair)*

bloodbeard, commander of the company of the cat (fiery red whiskers)

"ginger" jack, a toungeless sellsword of the windblown sent to dany, face nearly covered by his bristly, orange beard

gerrick kingsblood*

and his son*

and gerrick's daughter #1*

and gerrick's daughter #2*

and gerrick's daughter #3*

ronald storm, son of ronnet connington

one of the 7 "choicest" enslaved girls from the yunkish ship who were sacrificed by victarion (red-gold hair)

an enslaved redhead boy in line for a well, asking tyrion about dany**

nail, apprentice to hammer, the armorer for the second sons**

maester tybald, redhaired maester from the dreadfort serving arnolf karstark

valena toland, heiress to ghost hill (bright red hair)

teora toland, valena's younger sister with the same hair

uther shett, knight arriving for sweetrobin's tourney (ginger-haired and whiskered)*

*characters whose hair is described in the povs of starks (or jon snow) who only use the terms auburn or red-brown for catelyn, robb, sansa etc. and do not compare said characters to said tully-haired relations

**characters whose hair is described by tyrion lannister, who spent significant time with sansa and exclusively referred to her hair as auburn (without anyone else telling him her hair color as catelyn told brienne)

the only asoiaf characters ever described as having auburn hair:

catelyn tully stark

robb stark (red-brown/auburn tully hair "so like" his mother's, with a beard redder than his hair)

sansa stark (auburn hair lighter than her mother's, most reddish glowing in candlelight)

brandon "bran" stark (hair not bright red enough for him to distinguish himself from young benjen at first glance in a weirwood flashback)

rickon stark

brynden "the blackfish" tully (once auburn hair gone to grey)

edmure tully (auburn hair with a fiery beard, likely brighter than his hair like robb's)

lysa tully arryn baelish

known tully descendants never described as having auburn hair

arya stark (darker brown stark-colored hair)

hoster tully (hair and beard gone from brown to brown streaked with grey to white as snow)

robert "sweetrobin" arryn (fine brown hair, thought by sansa to be his best feature)

fun fact: the only other character that i can find to ever even be descibed as having red-brown hair in the main series is rowan, one of the spearwives who accompanied mance on his mission to winterfell. (described by theon, who had psychological reasons not to think of any hair-resemblance to robb and co.)

tl;dr i suppose my point here is that auburn hair in the real world may be a term thrown around wildly as a fancier way of saying red hair, but grrm and his westerosi creations seem to keep to a much more specific (true) definition. not just specific, almost entirely unique to a certain family, a weird mutation passing down their line somewhat inexplicably, like the magic platinum hair of the targaryens. (ned stark's 4 tully-haired kids being sorta like alicent hightower's 4 targ-haired kids where nobody can really explain why it was so dominant.) except it's actually more unique to the tullys than either black hair to the baratheons or silver hair to the targaryens, with the velaryons also having valyrian hair as well as some people in the essosi free cities too. which i guess makes rowan the wildling the equalivent of an unknown dragonseed or a lysene woman who could pass as a targ, and regular brown-haired hoster and sweetrobin the equivalent of regular blonde-haired alysanne and alyssa targaryen. so the next time someone calls the tullys lame or whatever, just remember that in-universe they're actually more special than the dragonriders, at least hairwise.

[disco-troy]

I would argue this to be in character bc Dicks issues with consent. But there’s one big glaring issue with this perspective on Dick and that’s the years he spent as leader of the titans with Joey on the team and the way he approached Joeys power set.

Because Dick used Joeys powers - the same as deadman’s of possession - strategically and often in order to accomplish the teams goals and didn’t seem to have any moral qualms about it.

There’s a few ways to see this, right -

A) Dick's definition of "innocent" is doing a lot of work here - most of the people Dick asks Joey to posses - aren’t “innocent” they are criminals and henchmen or somewhat complicit in crimes. he doesn't like when people are possessed but he sees it as a necessary evil and he has to be practical more than moral - and so he makes a line to do with perceived innocence and sticks to it.

B) but that doesn't account for the times that Dick has asked Joey to posses people on the team or people that are not directly responsible for a crime - like when Vic gets angry and Dick asks Joey to posses him until he agrees to calm down. This is so so fucked up for so many ways - espcially to vic who at this point in the timeline is THE MOST fucked up about consent

“You haven’t given us a choice” as if this is an impersonal decision and not a revoking of bodily autonomy and ability to express emotion. No one on the team seems to see anything wrong with it except Vic (hint it’s bc they’re all fucked up about consent :))

^^ B is kind of an extension of A - the idea of "necessary" evil. It just shows that Dick is willing to stretch that definition as far as it needs to go. He may know morally what he's doing is wrong but he will not confront it because he is filling it under necessary evils. Anything can be necessary, it’s not the person to which the consent is revoked but the context in which it is.

C) another option is the Joey of it all. Dick is close to Boston, in some continuities they have an uncle-nephew relationship - Boston famously says Dick is the only guy in the superhero community everyone can trust.

But Joey is on a whole other level. Despite being introduced as Slade's son, there's something about Joey that Dick trusted from the start and maybe that bit of trust, of seeing and believing in Joeys innate kindness and struggle with his powers (as opposed to Boston enjoining it in this scene) helped Dick dimiss the lingering feelings about the morality... its Joey... Who would mind Joey in them…. (pun not intended im sorry)

D) Finally there's the time component - maybe as he grew up Dick started to refect on his past, his decisions, his role as a leader. Something that is important to note is that chronologically Dick's issues with consent really ramp up after ntt (though brother blood does happen in ntt) - him struggling w/ bodily consent and getting comments, assult, his name + story being warped, people wanting to control his destiny and identity ect. So I think it would be fair to say that as Dick matures he looks back on the decisions hes made with new eyes and is horrified with what he incidently facilitated. Maybe this newfound wisdom and self reflection is why he makes more of an effort to mention his views to Boston despite that fact that he's worked with Boston with no problem before.

Relevant Dick Grayson thoughts from the Renegade arc:

[dceasesd]

why juni ba’s the boy wonder has my favorite jason characterization of any contemporary comic run: a needlessly in-depth analysis (pt.2)

alright here we are with part two! i promised i'd be quick with it, didn't i? you can find part one here. thank you guys so much for all the nice comments, i love yapping to a receptive audience :D

so, if you haven't read part one, i've been going over the common critques of ba's characterization of jason, the main three being:

the typical boiling down of jason's character to "the angry one"

his lack of strategy going into the fight with the demon is out-of-character

the neighbor's kid interaction

in the first part we went over #1, so now were gonna look at #2!

so, a problem people have with the story is how ba writes jason's reaction to the fight with rok (white tophat demon guy); damian and jason jump into the fight with seemingly no preparation at all, "underestimating" rok and paying the price for it.

i'll be honest, i do agree with this critque a bit. jason, if he is nothing else, is an obsessive planner and strategist; his back-up plans have back-up plans, and so on. we see this in plenty of his comic renditions, especially in lost days and under the red hood, where there are numerous examples of jason's competency. despite this, many comics fall into the habit of treating him as the "reckless, stupid robin", once again reducing his character to just his anger, usually to make the other robins more competent. looking at his actions in utrh & lost days, however, makes him jumping into a fight with no information uncharacteristic.

so, i sort of agree with this critque. HOWEVER. i will attempt to rationalize this part of ba's writing (because there are still parts of it i disagree with and it's more fun than just agreeing and moving on)

alright, to begin, lets look at these three different series; utrh (under the red hood), lost days, and the boy wonder. there is obviously many other examples out there, but i'm just gonna focus on these three for now because otherwise we'd be here all day.

in utrh & lost days, jason is driven by an obvious goal with an obvious end result; in utrh his goal is making bruce kill the joker & taking over gotham's underbelly, and in lost days it is getting skilled enough to complete the previously mentioned objective. i also chose to highlight the scene where jason puts a bomb underneath the batmobile in lost days, intending to kill bruce, because it's another very clear example of jason's strategic prowess. the whole bomb thing even happens before jason starts his murder training, making the feat even more impressive.

ba's jason, though, exists in a reality post-utrh; his plan failed and he must live with the consequences and implications of that truth. the recklessness that he presents in the fight in the boy wonder could be a representation of him grappling with this idea-- his supposed failure and banishment obviously must have had an effect on his psyche, and ba is attempting to portray that. ba plays a lot with the sadder side of jason's existence in the comic, so it's a plausibly theory, even if it is admittedly reaching a bit.

additionally, referring back to the earlier conversation about jason's anger in the first part of this discussion, i have the same sentiments about portrayal's of jason's recklessness. he can possess a strategic mind while still being reckless; it's his numerous paradoxical character traits that make him such an interesting character (at least to me). he's a mess of contradictions.

furthermore, while jason's actions are reckless and brash in this specific instance of the story, that does not mean that ba presents him as a reckless character. there's a difference between a reckless character and a character being reckless, and i feel like jason mostly falls into the latter. while maybe not super obvious, jason's tactical-ness is still present in ba's portrayal. this is represented through damian's responses and reactions to jason.

the fact that damian goes to jason for help in the first place is baffling. as a prideful kid desperate to prove himself, damian is not predisposed to asking for help, which is clearly presented in the first issue when he interacts with dick and babs.

damian's willingness to work with jason could be a result of him recognizing their similarities; he's more approachable than dick "golden boy" grayson. beyond that, he goes to jason because he needs a certain set of skills to help him catch the demon.

while jason is not able to fully present his usefulness at this task because the demon finds them first, he is clearly seen taking charge of the situation and dictating their plan to locate the demon, and damian actually defers to him. while brief, this instance represents that despite his recklessness in the battle against rok, ba still accurately presents jason's tactical skills, underscoring the intelligence he has that so many author's ignore or downplay.

i could go into how this plays into jason being a foil character to damian, but i'll save it for another day. sorry if this post is a little nonsensical, i did my best. i'll finish up my analysis in part 3! :)

part 1 / part 3

[whoopseydaisy]

On Witches, Wizards, and Wild Ones: A Conspiracy Board from the Walls of the Witch of the Wondering Path

Ahoohoo and crackle crackle!

This is an attempt of untangling some threads, stretching out their red yarn and connecting one thing to another or maybe to nothing at all. A series of notes and questions on what we know, what we may know so far, or at the very least what we have been told. The purpose is mostly to try and determine who might be behind the assassination attempt of the station of the Witch of the World’s Heart, before the Coven of Elders convenes, but also some other stuff, because these sorts of things balloon out quite quickly when one is combing through transcripts for clues. And also a dragon??

I shall analyze and speculate from what we have been told, knowing some inconsistencies may be characters concealing truths, interpreting them differently, or that some inconsistencies will be born of this beautiful improvisational medium. I will also do so knowing that Brennan is playing a long game, setting up characters and plot threads for a future he does not entirely know yet.

Settle in with your warm drinks and campfire blankets everyone, this is 12 page paper. 

THE CURSE(S)

There are several appearances of curses in both the Children’s Adventure and the first arc, often characterized by an exhalation of dark smoke. 

In the Children’s Adventure: While not confirmed as a curse, when Grandmother Wren leaves (to a meeting with friends that the wizards don’t know about, to see where the missing Eoighorain might be) to what is presumably a meeting with the Coven of Elders, she returns with a bandage tied around her forearm. But it does not look too horrifying and it is not soaked with blood. She describes the trip as eventful and necessary. (Possibly at the castle of Indri, the Witch of the Wind and Stars, as the conclave will be the second meeting there in a century.)

In episode 8, 2 days before Steel arrives to bring Suvi home, Grandmother Wren returns to the cottage after leaving to try and figure out why Soft and Stone have not come yet. She went to a place that they had told her was safe, and someone was there waiting to hurt her. Grandmother Wren tells Suvi “They’re gone now.”

Grandmother Wren looks ill; her hair is white and her hand is described as black and red and withered, burnt and cracking with blood streaming down from a wound that can’t set. Her breath is ragged, weak, and quick. The curse is described to Eursulon as not strong, but clever. He also learns that the curse uses her pain to keep the itself in place; that it gets stronger the more she tries to feel and deal with the pain. 

After the children work together to trap the curse and heal Grandmother Wren, Suvi recognizes the mist of wizardly teleportation magic outside. The girls just barely see Grandmother Wren’s footprints outside the door, but do not see anyone else’s, nor any other signs of entry. Suvi is able to tell that the magic is not Grandmother Wren’s. 

After investigating this caught curse, which Grandmother Wren at first believed was the work of the wizard, she determines the curse was expecting a wizard, and did not believe its origins were of this realm. She also says it should have killed her, but it didn’t, because they were expecting someone else. 

I was surprised re-listening that Grandmother Wren believed this portion of the curse expected a wizard. I think this curse may have been on an item capable of teleportation magic (no second set of footprints) perhaps meant for Soft and Stone, but when its target became Grandmother Wren, a contingent effect was triggered, or this is another curse altogether perhaps mingling with the larger curse on both her and Ame. Grandmother Wren thought Soft and Stone were spending the summer trying to find out who their true friends were - perhaps the Coven of Elders were also testing who they could trust. While “They’re gone now. Do you understand?” implies Grandma Wren whooping their ass 6 ft under the ground, she hadn’t figured out who cast it yet at that point, which leads me to believe that they were not present. The origin not being of this realm makes me think the origin of the curse is The Stranger.

In Ep 01: 

Here we discover the larger curse on both Grandmother Wren and Ame, when they realize a curse has robbed Ame of her memories and knowledge, of her station and of who she could trust and prevents Grandmother Wren from telling her about the Coven of Elders  or calling herself the Witch of the World’s Heart. Grandmother Wren breaks through the curse (but not breaking it proper) as it tries to “stop the coronation” by willing the house, and all that is hers to Ame. 

After, Brennan tells us “Grandmother Wren can no longer speak as she concentrates on magic, she has not fought off this curse”

Taro addresses the Granddaughters of Wren and tells them “The curse is powerful, but the secrets that Wren shared still live. You have been cursed too” and then, speaking of Wavebreaker, “But there is a key, a key to find where they are being kept, and a key to cut them free when found. There is a source with the power to disenchant and scry”

GrandaughterS of Wren - is Suvi afflicted by any part of the curse, or was Taro’s “you” only addressing Ame? Taro also says Wavebreaker has the power to find where the secrets are being kept, and the power to scry but this is not currently reflected in the statblock…but more on that later when we talk about the Stranger’s possible connection to Wavebreaker. 

We also learn in Episode 15, once Ame recovers her memories, that the Stranger had attacked Grandmother Wren at the Grove of the Well— a place sacred to the Coven of Elders, a month prior to her bed rest. She also tells Ame “For some time now, since you were a very little girl, in fact, he has been moving upon our world in a way that I cannot quite see.

Is part of the curse helping to obscure The Pilgrim Under the Stars, The Man in Black, The King of Night, The Stranger from Grandmother Wren? Did he start moving in such a way shortly after she took in Ame as her apprentice (which she was “cutting a bit close”) and the succession of her station was in the process of being secured, not going the way of either Scalvi, the Witch of the Watching Fire or Oruna, the Witch of the Wide Blue Sea? 

In Ep 14: 

In episode 14 when Eursulon breaks the curse on Ame we are told “Whatever entity placed this curse on Grandmother Wren and Ame put a spell so nasty that it was standing in front of successive contingent effects. That there’s like, a nested series of spells within Ame, and you’re excising all of them. But the big one that Ame was aware of was hiding some others” 

The curse afflicting Grandmother Wren at the end of summer, seems to be the larger curse affected both her and Ame. The children only excised and trapped one part of many of the curse. 

The curse is described as something sliding and clicking, liquid poison filled with a puzzle, turning from the inside, made of shadow. something that twists and rotates and expands and pierces. The curse is also holding onto something as it leaves - Ame is able to grab and safekeep the knowledge the curse attempts to steal from her on a Nat 20 wisdom save, and then collapses to the ground and expectorates black bile that smells of iron and blood, like Eoighorain, with a 9 on her constitution save. Her breathing remains strong, not ragged (unlike Grandmother Wren). We are told, through Suvi’s identify spell, that the bile is not the curse itself, but was behind the curse - something hidden there, meant to kill Ame if the curse were to be broken

Does the bile smell of Eoighorain because its a contribution he made to the curse (he is a known entity to the Coven of Elders), or a signifier of a power both he and Ame are affected by? We learn later, in Episode 16 when Steel discusses Eoighorain with Suvi, that this smell is not common amongst shapeshifter’s, but a scent she has only ever smelled from him. 

When Steel arrives she says that the longer Ame remains in her unconscious state, the more whoever created this spell would be able to track her. 

More on this in the next section- but is that why Indri, the Witch of the Wind and Stars was able to send a message to Ame in the Citadel so easily?

THE COVEN OF ELDERS

In Episode 23, Mr. Soup tells us that Grandmother Wren was at odds with the Coven for many years— there was a plan she did not want to go along with, and had been searching for a long time to find a way to convince her sisters to do something else. We also see glimpses of this in Episode 15 in Grandmother Wren’s conversation with Mirara, the Witch of the Waning Moon. It’s a safe guess that this disagreement has to do with Wizards and the Citadel. 

What Sly has divined regarding the upcoming Conclave (which we are told in glorious metatheatrical fashion in Episode 23 that “All things occurring as they have been seen. With perhaps one or two tricks, just to keep the story interesting.”)

That if Ame does not go to the North Pole in 3 days, the Coven will meet without her and that they will try to destroy her and in doing so the stations of Witch of the World’s Heart

One of them will make an argument that Ame’s existence threatens the nature of magic in Umora. The majority of times Ame wins that argument, it is because magically if they were to get rid of her station they would probably have to get rid of another. 

If Suvi is not there as her advisor, Ame will die

We also know from Grandmother Wren that there is much the coven can do without full unanimity (but presumably would be far less powerful to do so), and the Coven is bound by laws of mutual respect and there will be tremendous repercussions if one insinuates that any of the other stations are not incredibly significant to the nature of magic itself. 

But which of the members of the Coven of Elders might want the station of the Witch of the World’s Heart gone the most? WHO IS IN CAHOOTS? Is The Stranger involved? Is Eoighorain? Who has the most against wizards?

Marara, the Witch of the Waning Moon (Mirara? The transcripts use both spellings.)

The death of light, the end of might, the all consuming dread of night. 

This is the obvious first suspect. 

If that’s not a witch well on the pathway to wickedness, I don’t know what is.

The Witch subclass says of The Coven of the Wicked: “Members of this coven like to paint themselves as misunderstood victims, but it’s not tragedy that turns a witch’s heart to darkness—it’s the inability to let go of their suffering. A wicked witch might claim to be an enemy to all the world, but they always have one kind of person in particular—usually related to their past self, and what soured their magic—that they despise above all else. When you become wicked, choose a virtue that is anathema to you: courage, fairness, generosity, innocence, loyalty, kindness, optimism, prudence, selflessness, or being in love. Beings that display this virtue are especially tempting targets for your ire.”

Like…you can’t have a piece of such juicy and gorgeous and cool design like the Coven of Wicked (and the rehabilitation therein) and not have a wicked witch in your story! 

Additionally, Marara’s domain is the Witch of the Waning Moon. The death of light, the end of might, the all consuming dread of night. The moon wanes as it goes from full to new. When Ame meets her on the road, to light her way to the cottage, the harbinger of her arrival is a candle on the verge of going out. 

Mirara’s domain speaks to cycles, to the fall of the mighty and to the fear of the unknown. It is also of the night, possibly putting her in natural cahoots with The King of Night who also hates wizards. The conversation he has with Eursulon and the conversation Ame sees in the water between Marara and Grandmother Wren, both in Episode 23, certainly mirror each other. 

She is also often accompanied by wind, which speaks to Indri’s domain, the Wind and Stars, another one of night.

Indri, the Witch of the Wind and Stars

Of frost and stone, of ice and throne, the ruler of the self alone.

Indri’s domain is the wind and stars, a domain that also overlaps with an appellation of the Pilgrim Under the Stars.  In the letter to Ame she tells her she knew Ame has assumed her station from how the stars aligned. She has an apprentice we know little of. She also did the most to reach out to Ame to arrange a meeting. 

Did she reach out to Ame so it was more likely she would attend the Conclave? 

The ice fairies say when they find Ame and Suvi in the bathroom, “long lancing spells and vexing hexes of old were made to pierce and plunder through the guises and guile of wizards”

Were they able to reach her because Ame was easier to track when she was unconscious under Indri’s spellwork? Is it because she does not like wizards and is practiced at secretly penetrating their defences? The ice fairies were particularly silly, one being evidently foolish. Were they perhaps sent by Indri by way of her apprentice, who is lonely and excited to meet another Great Apprentice? “Hexes of old” does imply that Indri may be practiced at getting through Citadel defences. 

Does Indri have any pull over celestial movements? When discussing that summer and Eoighorain with Suvi, Steel says “all of that changed as the celestial path shifted ever so slightly. And that slight slight shift meant that all of a sudden, you could teleport anywhere, pretty much unstoppable, very easily.” Grandma Wren also speaks of stars to Ame like they  have personalities. Could Indri have eased the way for the eras of easy teleportation? Did she ever go on long and friendly flights among the stars with Grandma Wren? Is her witchcraft more divinatory? I think Indri falls on the side of wanting to stop wizards, but something in my gut says she does not want to see Ame dead. 

Hacaea, the Witch of the Woodland Green

The holly branch, the towering oak, the limb and leaf an thorn her folk.

We know little of Hacaea so far, but I think she’s absolutely in cahoots mostly because she would have perhaps one of the greatest motives to hate wizards and want them gone, on account of the whole them turning a great forest into a huge snowy, mirror-y desert and a wizard tower who’s aerith depository is probably doing kind of fucked up stuff to the biome. We know she does not have an apprentice and I think Brennan singling her out as the one Ame could imagine hanging out with was in part was that it would hurt more when she’s in ASSASSINATION CAHOOTS. Might have sent Ame the letter on bark.

Grimoire, the Witch of the Wild Hunt

Where beasts have tread and monsters fed, the bloody fang and maw hath led. 

We also do not know much about Grimoire. We know she has an apprentice, and has so far been characterised as much more feral and concerned with catching and eating things. She might have also sent Ame a letter on bark. I think there is more with her connection to monsters and possibly to Gaothmai, and Eoighorain?? Certainly there is more to her than meets the ear. Again I think Brennan could have been trying to be tricky in his comments about her, trying to make her seem less important early on than she will be.

THE STRANGER

Who has held his breath since the dawn of time, the Pilgrim Under Stars, the Man in Black, the King of Night. Who attacked Grandmother Wren at the Grove of the Well and who has been moving across the world in a way Grandmother Wren could not see since Ame was a very little girl, who came to the cottage the moment after Grandmother Wren passed when the station was at its most vulnerable and requested entry, and who does not like wizards. 

The strings I am most interesting in detangling here, are his possible connection to Wavebreaker, and his connection to roads which we know are incredibly significant to Grandmother Wren’s wards.

In Episode 7 of Children’s Adventure after the cast each takes a turn describing a detail of Wavebreaker Brennan narrates “So you have this moment together in the hottest days of summer as this suit of armor hands you this thing”. The next scene, after taking a moment to roll some ability scores, is at night.

Suvi then rolls a 3 on a perception check, “So with a three in perception, you look and see that you were mistaken. You look deeper at the shadow and it's just a shadow. But it was a scary shape from one of the trees”

Ame investigates the spot the next day.

Taro had said back in Episode 01 “It will help you find whatever is keeping these secrets, and perhaps whoever took them.” What if that connection goes both ways for a powerful spirit with so many titles? One who has taken care to obscure himself from Grandmother Wren?

In Episode 23 once Eursulon entered the fire, eventually travelling from the Citadel to actual Gaothmai, the Stranger caught up to him enough to have a conversation real fast. 

As evidenced above (if that figure of shadow is indeed The Stranger, but the point still stands anyways) he is also connected to the motif of roads. 

The final line of Episode 01 (which as the last line from the first episode, carries extra emphasis):

From episode 21:

From episode 22:

But in speaking of roads we must remember,

The iron shoe of horses. 3 iron nails sprung out of a signpost. Could a connection to the Stranger cause Eoighorain’s blood to smell like iron?

EOIGHORAIN

In my folders of screenshots, within the one labelled conspiracy, this one is named “the unexplained Eoighorain fragment.” As I mentioned before, Brennan is playing the long game- placing pieces on the board, but he could not yet know all the ways they could move. Eoighorain is placed like a question mark, with great manoeuvrability. He could go one way or another. Too many NPCs think him untrustworthy and it makes me wonder if he is the flashy distraction of a magic trick so we don’t see what the other hand is doing. 

This one goes down a few rabbit holes. 

We learn much about Eoighorain in episode 16 from Suvi and Steel’s conversation but also, from the diagrams (which are 150 years old, made in the first 50 years of the Citadel) of garrans, which are a creature of the world of spirit. We learn that Eoighorain’s name means “Of Garran” or “Son of Garran” and that iron was always at the forefront of his smell, with the party speculating that the iron is perhaps used to bind him. 

In Episode 15 Grandmother Wren tells Ame she has doubts about how loyal Eoighorain ended up being. Steel tells Suvi in episode 16 that she discovered recently, in the weeks preceding the start of the campaign proper, that Eoighorain was alive, and this is why she sent the books including the diagrams made to smell like him to Grandmother Wren, in an act of admitting defeat and hoping she would be able to find him where she could not. 

She says she saw him at Fort Keiran, doubts herself, and then sounds sure.

Why was Eoighorain at Fort Keiran? Because the revolutionary forces of Gaothmai are fighting the Citadel? Because he is working with the Cauntaranacht now and perhaps always was? A secret third thing? Was it even him after all? Was Steel about to say that exact same scent? Was their revolution successful and so their forces hold much more power in Gaothmai now? Is that one of the reasons the war is spinning up again? 

We see Gaothmai ourselves only briefly, in Episode 23. Eursulon, after falling and landing in an unfamiliar deep forest, meets monsters caught somewhere between spirit and mortal, left to fester— simian feline monstrosities, somewhere between a baboon and a panther with diseased scaly and mottled hide. Brennan describes it like a yard with attack dogs in it, who attack because of his citadel badge and who eventually leads him to Kalaya. 

(And sidebar I think he sees a dragon?? Is the war spinning up again because of a dragon? Was part of the Coven’s plan raising a dragon to raze the Citadel and everyone else? Was that how the world burned before? I just realized now that Eursulon saw a dragon and I am spinning up about it for sure.)

But back to Eoighorain, and Steel thinking that he caused the death of Soft and Stone, who Steels tells us were prolific double agents with connections in both Rhuv and Gaothmai that pay dividends to this day. 

Grandmother Wren tells Ame in Episode 15 that Eoighorain was one of the outside members of the Citadel to alert the Acadator to the presence of agencies, jokingly referred to as the League of Whispers, which were dedicated to the downfall of the Citadel from within. She also says “When Steel came to collect Suvi at the end of that summer, the primary targets of their investigation were dead or missing.”

Additionally in the Children’s Adventure:

Steel tells us in Episode 16 that the mission Soft and Stone were on the summer that they died was searching for a dangerous sorceress named Nahani. This was the first time that instead of her and Eoighorain protecting Soft and Stone, he alone was charged with their safety. When Steel returned to collect Suvi she came back with scars on her face, and a new cloak. 

Why was Steel left behind? Was she needed by the Citadel elsewhere? A matter of trust? Is she telling the truth? Did Soft and Stone leave Steel behind so she would not know they were possibly acting against the Citadel? Because they knew she would not betray it? Was she really not there, or is that a cover up? Is guilt one of the forces that pulled her to be mother to Suvi? I don’t really think she killed them but I am not discounting that possibility.

I think Steel believes this wholeheartedly, but I don’t for a second.

Stone is a very prolific abjurer, who also studied divination. Just saying.

Additionally, 

This little nugget in Gaothmai perked my ears up the first time it was said. Ket, you say? Like Suvirin Kedberiket? Like Aman Kedberiket? THAT WAS A CHOICE BRENNAN. IN A WORLD WHERE NAMES ARE VERY IMPORTANT, IN A CULTURE WHERE NAMES ARE KEPT SECRET. IN A NATION SOFT WAS A DOUBLE AGENT FOR. WHO, 2 YEARS BEFORE SUVI WAS BORN, FREED A NUMBER OF SPIRITS, ONE OF WHOM WAS KALAYA, WHO THEN SETTLED DOWN IN GAOTHMAI. AND HE HAS A COLLEAGUE WHO IS THEORETICALLY A REVOLUTIONARY FROM THERE. A COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT. Anyways I think Soft is from Gaothmai. 

In conclusion: ?????????????????? I’m really excited for arc 3 because I really love witches and I don’t really know what up with Eoighorain, and I adore but do not trust Steel (but what else is new) and I do think there’s a dragon in Gaothmai apparently?? And I think The Stranger has a connection to Wavebreaker and I think Soft is from Gaothmai and I really don’t know if I can trust Indri or not but I hope we meet her apprentice and some more ice fairies. 

[zahri-melitor]

It has been pointed out to me that Tim grabbing Dick’s arm is not the FIRST such move from Tim during The Gotham War.

I’ve focused on it because it’s echoing two previous scenes I love, but acknowledging that there’s also been a move by Zdarsky to create a second reading for newer comics fans is important, given that the build also contributes to the read of ‘Tim the Saviour Robin’ and his work in averting conflict.

All I ever try to do is save him. Sometimes from himself.

There’s now three specific grabs:

Tim grabs Bruce to pull him off Jason

Tim grabs Damian to pull him off Dick

Tim grabs Dick to pull him off Bruce

(Batman #137)

Now there are several significant differences here to the other two - it’s the most unsuccessful and Tim’s kicked away immediately - but it sets up Tim ‘trying to save you from yourself’.

(Batman #138)

Tim pulls Damian away from Dick and takes him away to give Dick space for what he’s doing (accessing the computer system). This DOES turn into a full on fight scene between the two during which Tim’s extremely focused on restraining Damian out of trouble.

(Batman #138)

Lastly we have Tim grabbing Dick. Now this echoes every other time it’s happened - Tim’s specifically holding back Dick’s arm from punching, and Dick always STOPS the fight when this happens - but it maps in terms of Tim’s actions with the other two scenes.

It’s just generally good characterisation work. Consistent behaviour from Tim for the narrative being created PLUS bonuses for older fans in regards to the action.

[pedantic-coffee]

one of the critiques of Hetalia is that “personification of countries is such an unoriginal idea!!!” which, sure, yeah... but Hetalia offers the unique spin on such an old concept by asking the very important question:

“what if they were all salty about it?”

[hamletthesanedane]

For the last time, horatio: I did not murder my father, conspire to have my uncle marry my mother, hire an actor to play a ghost for legitimacy so I could blame the murder on my uncle to justify pulling “some really fucking sick meta-theatre shit” by writing a play and launching my soon-to-be legendary stage and literary career.

[veliseraptor]

just thinking about the "xue yang never cared about xiao xingchen he doesn't have real feelings and just thinks of him as a toy" take again and @ameliarating pointed something out to me namely:

Xue Yang broke into peals of laughter. "Wei-qianbei, you're merciless!"

"Fine, laugh. Even if you laugh yourself to death, Xiao Xingchen's soul will still be too broken to put back together. He found you repulsive, yet you still insist on dragging him back so that you can play games with him."

Abruptly, Xue Yang swung from laughter into rage. "Who wants to play games?!"

"Then why did you kneel in front of me and beg me to fix his soul for you?"

Of course, someone as clever as Xue Yang must have been aware that Wei Wuxian was trying to bait him. First, distracting him with anger, and second, provoking him into shouting, Wei Wuxian made it possible for Lan Wangji to deduce his location and strike. But still, Xue Yang couldn't help replying. "Why? Hah! As if you don't know. I want to turn him into a fierce corpse - under my control! Didn't he want to be a pure, virtuous cultivator? Then I'll make him endlessly slaughter people, so he'll never find peace!"

"Ah? You hate him that much? Then why did you kill Chang Ping?"

Xue Yang sneered. "Why did I kill Chang Ping? Do you need to ask, Yiling Patriarch? Didn't I already tell you? I said I was going to kill the entire Yueyang Chang Clan - I wasn't even going to spare one dog!"

[...] Wei Wuxian said, "You sure came up with a good explanation. Too bad the timing doesn't match up. Someone like you, who can't even let a dirty look go without avenging yourself a thousand times over, someone who strikes so swiftly and ruthlessly - if someone like you really wanted to kill off an entire family, why would they wait so many years to finish? You know perfectly well why you killed Chang Ping."

"Then tell me, what do I know? What do I know perfectly well?!"

He shouted this last sentence.

"You killed them, yes. But why lingchi? Killing someone that way signifies that it was punishment. If you were only getting revenge for yourself, why did you use Shuanghua and not your own Jiangzai? Why did you have to dig out Chang Ping's eyes and make him like Xiao Xingchen?"

Xue Yang shouted himself hoarse. "Bullshit! It's all bullshit! It was revenge - was I supposed to let him die comfortably?"

"Indeed, it was revenge. But whose revenge were you seeking? How ridiculous. If you genuinely wanted revenge, you should have sliced yourself into pieces!" (MDZS, Chapter 42)

so if we're meant to buy that interpretation, then...what is the point of this passage? what is it trying to say? is it just to give Wei Wuxian a means of distracting Xue Yang and making him show himself? then why this means? and why are we taking the line that Xue Yang himself, a famously reliable narrator (?) gives (re: wanting to turn Xiao Xingchen into a fierce corpse and control him) as the truth of the situation, as opposed to Wei Wuxian's own interpretation (where Xue Yang is taking revenge on Xiao Xingchen's behalf, albeit expressed onto a different target)? and what is the point of Xue Yang's reaction after this, where he suddenly goes silent and stops responding, meant to indicate? the fact that Xue Yang gets angrier and angrier at Wei Wuxian for pressing the point?

these are all cues present for a narrative purpose, not "just because," and they're pointing in a direction that indicates that Xue Yang in this scene is lying through his teeth, whether or not he admits that to himself.

furthermore, since inevitably "but adaptation" comes up in these conversations, CQL actually retains this scene in a remarkably intact form:

coming to the conclusion based on this scene alone (not even touching the narrative surrounding the events in the past) that people who claim that "xue yang had no genuine feelings about xiao xingchen whatsoever" is to be taken as truth are not just taking the most boring possible read of this text but also at least a little actively reading against it.