#mike isn’t visibly queer as will is

[thefirstlioveyou]

.

[therainscene]

Much of the supernatural horror that Will has to contend with works extremely well as a metaphor for his issues -- the Upside Down is the closet, the monsters represent homophobia, his powers are as repressed as he is, yadda yadda -- and in my opinion, this makes him a relatively easy character to analyze. Being able to draw on the supernatural stuff just gives you a lot more material to work with.

Mike, though? A goddamn enigma. He’s often present when supernatural stuff is happening, but he doesn’t interact with it to anywhere near the degree that Will does, and it’s much harder to fold him into the allegory being told here without reducing him to “Will’s love interest”.

And that’s interesting, don’t you think?

That the “stereotypical” gay boy who attracts homophobes like moths to a flame has had his issues laid out in code since the beginning? Whereas the straight-passing one, who’s so deep in the closet he’s probably not even out to himself yet, is so hard to read that most of the GA assume his bizarre personality change in S3 was a symptom of bad writing?

Figuring yourself out as a queer is a challenge even today, and part of the reason it’s so challenging is because heteronormativity steamrolls right over our right to know that being queer is a valid option.

The closet isn’t a queer space -- it’s a queer-shaped void within a heteronormative space.

Stranger Things is full of examples of this:

Will isn’t shy about expressing his disgust at the thought of dating girls, but he’s dealing with a lot of childhood trauma so he’s just a late bloomer, right?

Will is jealous and upset about his new step-sister’s relationship with the boy he’s been attached to at the hip since he was five, but it must be because he’s in love with her or otherwise misses his platonic buddy, right?

El’s character arc is about freeing herself from toxic relationships with men, but her infatuation with the boy who puts her on a pedestal is the one exception to that, right?

Robin shows zero romantic interest in men before coming out, but she and Steve just vibe so well it’s reasonable to assume they’re love interests, right?

Vickie paused Fast Times at fifty-three minutes five seconds, but she has a boyfriend so she must be straight, right?

Over and over, the show presents us with an ambiguously queer situation and dares us to assume it’ll end heteronormatively.

If this were any other show I’d call it queerbaiting... but these situations just keep ending in a non-heteronormative way, all while symbolically dancing around Mike.

Granted, “non-heteronormative” doesn’t necessarily equal gay -- El’s arc is more about independence and forging healthy platonic relationships than about replacing men with women -- but she’s still on the path to breaking out of comphet, which is rather a queer act regardless of whether she's literally queer herself.

But I’m digressing.

We’ve seen how Will is visibly queer and struggles with the trauma of being abused for it, and how his closet is symbolized by the existence of a literal alternate dimension full of monsters.

But Mike is invisible, so his closet isn’t represented by a metaphor at all, but by something more meta than that -- it’s etched out in the negative space formed by the narrative itself. Only the audience can see it, and then only if we’re paying attention, tracing the edges of the story and feeling out the shape it results in.

These two different approaches in depicting the struggle of being closeted remind me of drowning.

In films, drowning is a noisy and dramatic affair, easy to identify.

But in real life, drowning doesn’t look like what we think it does -- it’s silent and resembles calm water play. All too often, drowning victims will quietly slip under and succumb helplessly to the depths...

...right under everyone’s noses.

[paladibun]

personal gay/bi mike ramblings & other late night thoughts //

Been thinking about how I relate way more to gay Mike as a bi dude rather than to bi Mike. (This isn’t whos interpretation is right or anything) I’ve seen the post that was like both gay byler would portray different experiences under one label and show that no label outright owns a specific experience. A bi Mike’s arc would be more about choices in relation to others with less introspection and a gay Mike’s arc would explain internal turmoil and self depreciation in relation to a queer identity and the need to hide it, which would require more of it . And ofc gay people don’t own this flavor of experience but in Mike’s case would explain his actions if under that lense for me personally. Also noticed the later headcanon is more prevalent for those with a bigger Mike bias than Will which is interesting.

Also thinking about what a mess or I guess how much ambiguity there is in both Will & Mike’s characterization when it comes to their relation to their sexualities which ultimately causes people to develop strong opinions and get angry when people get their arcs or dynamics wrong. The thing is that the Duffers like ambiguity - it gives them freedom and they also don’t like to state things outright when it comes to identities and very important sociopolitical issues while trying to be “realistic” /half-neg ( ex: Karen & Nancy talking about feminism without mentioning women, the way Robin’s coming out was handled without mentioning any gay words while the show is comfortable using homophobic words )

Anyway almost got heated on a completely separate topic.

It is sometimes confusing as to what is meant to be presented as a “Will Arc” and a “Mike Arc” On the one hand Will struggles from overt homophobia from others and from Lonnie growing up, on the other hand he has Joyce, Jonathan, Mike, and the party who adore him and while I doubt Will understands that they would accept him no matter what, there’s definitely an earlier self acceptance in his identity as a hyper-visible gay man(you can see it with the Turing Project & the bravery with the painting). I define internalized homophobia as “a set of complex contradicting behaviors based on society’s homophobia and heteronormative pressures” and some people define it as “being sad that people are being homophobic to someone” I think both Will and Mike have degrees of both and sometimes it’s hard to see how much of either both characters have. And for Mike, it solely depends on how you read his sexuality thus explaining his actions and feelings. Again, it is vague which I think is humanizing and realistic.

I won’t touch the dynamics topic until the tag evolves beyond late stage fandom spoon/fork binarization of gay relationships but just noting that aspect of byler isn’t void of complexity.

One last thought for the night:

Just looking at the fandom and noticing unfortunate patterns. Mainly the desire to be right above all else and largely at the expense of collective fun and creativity which is like the main point of fandom. I think it comes mostly from having to fight the GA and m*levens to prove we aren’t crazy (insert Joyce Byers gif here) a year ago and that mentality sticking for way too long. Like the desire to to defend your thoughts and feel your feelings strongly about a topic is amazing and is another big fandom driver but at some point people getting angry for fanon, headcanons, people having fun making things in a way that isn’t popular loud accounts approved is honestly concerning. I see it a lot from the side I agree with too and it’s like. We can do better right? Not everything needs to be activism tinged?

Anyway anyway thanks for reading this far I’m passing the whole fandom edibles as we collectively rewatch the source material and resetting our very “seeing red at posts we disagree with” adled brains. 💕

[moefling]

ok i’m gonna talk about the RWRB Movie...

SPOILER: i’m gonna be negative and i’m not planning on watching the movie (i guess that means ppl are gonna block me??? idk why ppl are just mass blocking because of this but whatever) (edit: per a suggestion I swapped the tag on this post so it isn't tagged under "rwrb movie")

so i’m gonna start by saying that i’ve watched the trailer a few times and honestly i love the vibes, it makes me smile ever time.

-the kiss is great

-the butt slap is everything

-Henry’s facial expressions *chefs kiss*

-the visible chain around Alex neck. yes

i’m also gonna say that its great that people ARE going to see the movie, we need more queer movies and the only way for that to happen is if ppl watch the ones that are being made now.

so the bad.

honestly i could deal with a lot of the little things.  like they make my eye twitch a little but i do actually understand that you can’t 100% remake a book into a movie.

 BUT

it’s June that i can’t forgive.

if i’m wrong and she is in the movie than amazing and i redact everything but it doesn’t seem to be that way.

removing June makes me SO angry.  its like removing Alice from Twilight or Sam from Lord of the Rings.  if Main Characters are just the romantic leads (Alex and Henry) than June defiantly falls into secondary tier - all the Super Six kinda do (Bea would be the most removable for me but is is also necessary for Henry’s development as much as June is for Alex.

June balances Alex out.  the book even specifically states WHY all of the White House Trio are needed (page 28: “Alex pushes them. June steadies them. Nora keeps them honest.”) She keeps him sane and she put her life on hold to watch out for Alex, and Alex knows this!

the idea of Alex being an only child is terrifying.  he is already kinda selfish (i say that lovingly) and “a little shit” without growing up with an older sibling to shut him up he would be a monster (and Nora doesn’t count because first they don’t actually meet until Ellen is running with Mike as VP and second Nora’s personality is to “go with the flow” to really steady Alex)

June also has some important moments that happen in the book! like it doesn’t really work to have Nora be fake dating Henry for the like 2 days that that happens and no June means no Magazine moment (i know that isn’t really directly in the book but its a fav for everyone).  no June also really changes the tone of the Lake House....

ANWAY, moving away from June here is some other things that i don’t like (because its my rant and i want to, feel free to change my mind)

- the height difference (i did love the lifts comment in the trailer but idk if they’ll be able to keep that up in a way that makes since - that means that if they are every barefoot Alex would have to be shorter *cough* like swimming)

-the actor for Alex is to old.  i know ppl are really split about this but the actor feels put together and like an adult to me (vs. book Alex feels very young - or he honestly acts his age of 21/22).  i think the polo match scene says a lot for me in the postures of the 2 actors, Henry is ok (tho honestly i think he wouldn’t have the loose posture once he rejoined ppl but its cute so pass) but Alex is to stiff, he should be almost bouncing as he walks.

-WFT is Ellen’s accent in the trailer???

-i heard a rumor that Raf and Liam are merged and redone.  Gross and big no.

-King instead of Queen.  i understand why this was done but the tone changes a lot in my head of abusive Grandpa vs. Grandma

-Zahra.  don’t like, the vibe is off with the actress... can’t explain why except the smile in the photos and the bow in the trailer

 -i feel like some of the scenes feel still (this is 100% my opinion and i could be reading this VERY wrong so ignore this if you interpret it differently)

i really wanted to like the movie but realistically i probably wouldn’t watch the movie anyway because i have issues with that so..... i guess it doesn’t matter.

i hope ppl who watch it enjoy it and please separate tags of movie vs book, thanks

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

There are so many things wrong with this post, I don’t even know where to begin.

“It’s like you actively want him to be a terrible person… it’s like you actually think Will is petty enough to be jealous about Mike’s love confession to El”

This is such a strange thing to say because what are they even attacking here? They’re not attacking the concept of canon reciprocated Byler; they’re attacking the literal text of the show- Will being in love with Mike- and twisting it so that it’s somehow “petty” for Will to be a real human being- a real human teenage boy, mind you- with genuine feelings. Is he supposed to feel no emotion at all? Loving Mike and feeling heartbroken doesn’t make him a terrible person? What are they even saying? And to call it “petty” when Will did nothing but show how selfless he was all season? When Will is the one who repeatedly pushed Mike Huckabee together and encouraged Mike to keep monologuing even as it dug his own romantic grave and visibly killed him inside? You don’t have to ship Byler if you don’t want to- it will still be endgame tho, lmao- but why can’t everyone unite on feeling empathetic and compassionate towards Will and the impossible situation he finds himself in? Why is there such a Mad Libs instinct to downplay Will’s CANON feelings for his lifelong best friend?

“… when it literally saved her life.”

It literally didn’t? I’m not saying it played NO role in the battle at all- that’s a separate debate- but I guarantee you the thing that gave El the strength to fight on was NOT Mike finally saying I Love You in an incoherent monologue where he said nothing specific about her, repeatedly emphasized her superpowers, and also talked about the Benny’s Burgers T-Shirt that almost swallowed her whole when they met. If any aspect of Mike’s monologue inspired her, it was the “Fight! Fight!” portion as she looked to her best friend Max and gained courage to continue fighting for her. Her true love. Not Mike’s “love confession,” motivated by Will’s painting, which they didn’t even talk about after. This isn’t a Disney movie. The cosmic Midleven love didn’t save the world. The gates opened. Max fell into a coma. The heroes lost. Hawkins fell.

“You think Will is such a bad person that his sister is dying and he’s thinking “gosh, I wish Mike loved me instead”?

Will contains multitudes. He can both deeply love his sister and want her to live, which is why he’s pushing Mike to continue monologuing, while also wishing Mike loved him instead. Which again, is a CANON, central aspect of Will’s character, not something Bylers are just making up just to ship two characters together. Of course, Will wishes Mike loved him. Will Byers adores Mike Wheeler, AND he adores him enough to attempt to rip the bandaid off so that your rapidly sinking ship can see one more day and his bestie can be happy even though he’s clearly not. That was like the entire point of their S4 storyline and why Will was so emotional every time Mike talked to him.

“According to your theories, [Mike] has been stringing Will’s sister along for over a year while actually being in love with someone else”

According to what theories? That’s such a weird oversimplification and exaggeration of Byler theories. It’s a straw man argument. No one, not even those who place Mike the furthest possible point on the Kinsey scale, believes that “stringing Will’s sister along for over a year” is an accurate description of what Mike has been doing. Do they have no compassion for the complexity of the situation that a queer Mike would find himself in: the possible internalized homophobia, the definite confusion, the likely terror and uncertainty, the guilt and self-hatred, the butterflies that probably feel like pterodactyls? The two people he’s closest to abruptly move away across the country- his lifelong best friend who he might feel something more for and the girl with superpowers he’s literally dating and trauma-bonded to and whose dad just died?

“If Will got together with that theoretical Mike that would make him an asshole”

Good thing you’re right, in a roundabout way. That theoretical Mike doesn’t exist and is based on a strawman you made up. Mike literally can’t be “stringing El along” since neither Will nor El have been present in Hawkins. But even if they had been, and even if he had consciously chosen to lie to El about his feelings, and even if Mike has made mistakes- which he obviously has: he’s fourteen and a human being - it still wouldn’t make him an “asshole.” He’s just a scared and confused queer kid trying desperately to stay normal, trying desperately to stay afloat. Somehow our theories make Mike seem like an asshole to you, but Mike being rude and weird to Will for no reason (not even being able to hug him!), Mike not being able to tell his girlfriend he loves her and openly gaslighting her about it, and Mike crumpling up romantic letters from El with no explanation all make him perfectly valid???

“This is specifically about the “canon Byler trutherism crowd” that insists Byler is gonna happen in season 5.”

Well, I mean, of course there are Byler enjoyers out there who don’t believe it’ll be canon or who lost faith after volume II and never regained it (we welcome back all prodigal children at any time), but yeah… one of the central aspects of our ship especially following season 4’s pretty transparent Byler plotline is the belief that it will be canon, not because of any arbitrary or “delusional” reason but literally because the narrative is setting it up and televising it. But you got me, I guess?

“Mike just suddenly ditches El and gets with Will”

Strawman. Stop it, you know no one is arguing that’s what will happen. We believe there’s a nuanced and beautiful storyline being set up. And most of us believe El will break up with Mike first. But regardless, there’s nothing sudden about Byler in season 5 when Mike has always looked like he wants to risk it all and kiss Will.

“This is only directed at the one’s I’ve seen bashing I Can't Believe It's Not Butter! constantly and harassing Mulan II blogs and just overall bad fandom etiquette.”

Says the ship that constantly sends out insane, unhinged homophobic asks and openly trash talks Will, wishing death on him and calling him slurs? You won’t catch any misogynistic anti-El asks sliding into your DMs. Look- I’m not denying there are toxic Bylers out there. No fandom is composed of saints. But when you survey where the vast majority of the “bad fandom etiquette” comes from, it’s pretty lopsided lmao.

[kuntniss]

between mike and will one character is visibly queer in-canon. he’s one version of the gay experience, the clockables, the never really got the real chance at the closet. the other is another version of the gay experience, the invisibles, and your closet is fucking stifling and isolating you but it’s still, so so scary to step out of and abandon all you’ve ever known. what’s not interesting to embrace about how these in-canon portrayals together provide this multi-faceted representation of how queerness looks like, both in literal looks, and the growing-up experience. 🫤😔

🗣️!!! i despise people who erase any of it because it is literally why they are the way they are. everyone can handle talking about mike’s repression and internalized homophobia and/or heteronormativity, but suddenly bringing up will’s experience is deemed as stereotyping… so fucking weird. just say you feel uncomfortable discussing all types of queer people. you cannot abandon those who refuse to conform and who’ve been clocked as gay from the start just because it’s too embarrassing for you or “cringe.” these types of people have made so much possible for us as a community because they didn’t let homophobes push them back into the closet— and it’s completely understandable why some gay people do. it’s scary, it’s uncomfortable, it isn’t easy, but will’s thing is all about persevering and not letting others tear him down. that’s one of his strengths. he doesn’t need to be overly masculine and big and loud to be cooler. he doesn’t want to be either!! mike’s queerness is easier to hide because… well, he has a girlfriend. but he also isn’t non-conforming. sure, he has nerdier interests, but he isn’t what anyone thinks is girlish lol. not like the way they’d call will a fairy. he likes darker & edgier clothing, he likes to be in charge, he’s a little dickish (/pos, i love that), he’s protective, he doesn’t make people wonder if he’s anything but straight, both in the show and outside of it. why do so many people hate him? because they don’t think he seems gay so he just seems like an asshole. aka exactly what everyone else in the world thinks in the show. it’s the same thing with will but opposite.

[justmeandmyships]

The Duffer brothers brought me here: My experience with byler. (A rant to get things out of my mind)

With Vol 2 being so close and me without nothing better to do I want to share my experience on how I became a byler shipper and so confident about them.

First of all, let me tell you before this season I never watched any theories or anything like that. I just watched the show and kept going with my life (despite of me loving analyzing things with stranger things I never felt the urge to do so idk why). I wasn’t thinking of any ships because tbh 90% of the couples seem to me very cliche, predictable and boring. I despise all these couples so much that in season 3 when everybody was like “oh what a fun and cool season”, my family knows that I was venting about how it was the worst season. For me it felt so superficial. Nothing to do with the two priors seasons. I was ready to stop watching this show. I was that annoyed!!

So imagine the shock I felt this season as a general viewer when I saw the awkward hug between Will and Mike at the airport when all I knew they amended things past season. My first thought was “why is Mike being a jerk to Will?” . It makes absolutely no sense with Mike’s character.

Then the first thing Mike asks Will is about the painting. He not even asked him how he was or anything like that. He asked Jonatan but he didn’t care about his best friend???!!!

Bare with me my mind was going crazy. Nothing makes sense. Not with the Mike I know. Even on season 3 when he was a jerk to Will, he did it on the heat of the moment and regretted immediately but this season?!! This season he was blatantly ignored him and treated him badly.

Are the Duffers that bad writers? I asked myself. Is this show going down hill? Nothing made sense.

But then the “we are friends” x 2 happened. It opened my mind to a possibility that I never ever considered. Was Mike having feelings for Will? Because let me tell you I’m straight so I never ever ever in a million times not matter how BAD I fight with my best friend, I never had the need to remember her the status of our relationship. I never have to remember her that we are friends. Why will we feel the need to clear that up? We are friends what else can we be? Why we any of us forget that unless one of us was at one point or another considering us in another kind of relationship ?

Something definitely clicked. Then the awkwardness continued until the “i thought that I lost you” with Mike visible nervous, Will with tears in his eyes. I was like okayyyy. Plausible. Perhaps I was misrepresented things.

But then THEN Mike came back to his awkwardness. That fucking triple looks that he gave Will. Why is he awkward again if you already cleared things on. There’s was no denying that something was happening. SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING.

However my biggest proof without no doubt was how Mike nodded when Will told him about being scared of telling people the truth. If Mike’s truth is that he loves El, why is he scared? Specially when she already told him that she is waiting for him to say it?

There’s no logic explanation for that nodding that Mike did. Except of course you admit that his truth isn’t something that El wants to hear. Plus his awkwardness with Will, the math clicked on my mind. Mike Wheeler can’t be straight.

So i was convinced. I was opened to the idea but still didn’t fully believe because to do such move on the narrative. A main character who was just a character and not “the gay or queer character”. That’s something never seen before. Can the Duffers be that brave? That’s just a power move. That will made people crazy for good or bad.

That’s when I started reading theories and the more I read, the more things made sense not just from this season but for all the previous seasons.

There’s no way Byler won’t be canon. My experience tell me so because I would have never ever questioned Mike’s sexuality if the Duffers didn’t make all those scenes this season. They made act so out of character that it’s impossible to ignore his actions. They made the awkwardness, they made the airport scene, they made heart to heart talks, they were the ones with the tender emotional music. I didn’t say oh look how cute Mike and Will look. No. It was the writers choices that made me start questioning everything. They brought me here. Not only me but many many many people like me.

So keep that in mind.

[notexactlyrocketscience]

Because this Tweet has been circulating, I just want to address some things.

I’d like to preface this with:

I love Stranger Things.

I think this season (and the last), was flawed in several ways. It’s okay to say it. Media is subjective, and I usually don’t feel the urge to defend my favourites with my life, especially after I’ve read discourse directly from people it concerns the most.

I think this Tweet is misunderstanding (and derailing from) the queer fanbase’s major concerns. No, I don’t think the writers were queerbaiting with Robin or Will, who are canonically queer. I haven’t even come across any opinions really saying that. (If anything, the writers—or rather the cast—were perhaps queerbaiting with some Eddie and Nancy scenes.)

This isn’t a conversation about what an artist owes their audience. The writers, of course, owe us nothing. Regardless, I think it's important to discuss the effects of an existing, ongoing high-profile show that will inadvertantly affect peoples' worldview.

I think Robin's coming out scene was really beautiful. I would change nothing. I love that she has a love interest this season. However, I think it's valid to say her love interest is the only side-character one so far, and we have yet to see much of her character beyond being hyperactive in much the same way as Robin. Nearly every single book I’ve read over the last couple of years have been about and/or by queer people, and from my personal intuition of whether there’s been a lot of nuance, thought, and care put into a fictional character … This isn’t one of them.

Whether the writers meant for it to be that way or not, the audience picked up on Will's queer vibe from the beginning—similarly to how we saw it in Elsa from Disney’s Frozen. The Duffer brothers (unlike Disney) chose to not go against that natural progression of the character … which I believe is the bare minimum, because doing so without good reason would be a slightly odd decision from the writer’s end at best, at least kind of homophobic at worst.

I think the gentle way Will’s queerness has been highlighted this season through his feelings for Mike, and his scene with Jonathan was wonderful. His confession to Mike was rich with palpable emotion. At the same time, I understand that a high-profile show like this has a wide fanbase, and explicitly addressing Will’s sexuality the way they did Robin’s would have been another amazing win for the LGBTQ+ visibility on-screen—directly shutting down homophobes that might try to deny it. (Y’all should know that homophobes are wildly talented at het-washing queercoded characters.) This was a missed opportunity.

To add insult to injury (and setting aside the fact that all of Will’s character arcs have been based on suffering), I think the way Will used his confession as a clearly excruciating ~ selfless ~ act of support for his obviously straight crush’s heterosexual relationship was … actually distressing. Y’all, this has been done before in media practically word for word, time and time again. It’s queer torture-porn and clever bi-erasure. It’s ✨ authentic ✨, sure, but in the way the bury-the-gays trope is: Hide away the queers for the comfort of the majority cishet audience.

(When can we expect authentic mainstream media about queer people that lived and loved? They existed, too.)

I also think it was a cop-out. I just feel like while the technical adventure/sci-fi plot of Stranger Things is almost flawless, they sometimes don’t know what to do to add interpersonal relationship progressions. They rekindled some drama between Steve, Nancy and Jonathan, with hints at the end of continuation into the next season. It’s unnecessary and repetitive, reminiscent of old lengthy romcom series.

I think what really would have been interesting, brave, revolutionary (and realistic) is if they had left the adult characters alone, and stirred up some drama between the teenagers instead.

What if Mike were queer? What if he and El truly did grow out of each other, like they seem to have been doing naturally for the past two seasons? (The setup and context of Mike’s monologue to El—indicating they’re probably going to be endgame after all—was great, but I think even a teenage boy like him could have said less corny words that actually made me feel something, especially as a former Mileven fanatic.) Just like I want someone new for Steve, I've ended up wanting someone better (or no one but herself) for Eleven. There were several scenes in which I swore I could feel a palpable tension between Mike and Will. I don't want Byler to happen for the sake of an achillean protagonist. I want it to happen because I truly see the potential in the characters; I think it would be extraordinary turn of events, true to the spirit of Stranger Things’ generally excellent storytelling.

But a canon Byler would’ve imploded the fanbase. Canon Bylers don’t happen. They’re left for fanfic. That’s how it’s worked for decades. The main straight character can’t be queer, because he never acted queer. Because for years, media has indicated that queer people can be put in boxes. By risking some of its (huge) revenue, Stranger Things could’ve played a major part in changing that.

Or they could have just altered the car scene to not make such a big deal out of simple rejection, and spared the queer community from another subtle blow.

As we optimistically wait for new developments, I think it's important to note that the world is going to sit with just what we have so far until 2024, and we'll get only one more season.

Maybe you think Stranger Things did great on this front because you're comparing it to other, worse Netflix shows, but some of those are objectively—perhaps even deliberately—trashy. The film industry is trash, and while we should praise even the tiniest positive change, it's not an excuse to turn a blind eye towards remaining concerns.

[gayofthefae]

The Duffers establishing how inseparable Mike and Will are by how Mike reacts to being separated from Will and how tight he holds on when he’s back but then also separating them again emotionally, physically, via distracting plot/prioritizing kind of implying that through the entire demonstration of their inseparability until season 4 being about their reactions to being separated or desperation to not be again, that we don’t get to really see this inseparability as their natural state until their relationship is built up - They tell us what their relationship is and convince us well but very strategically make it so they can’t actually show us without it being distinctly romantic. They’re starting to be that attached at the hip pair we’ve heard so much about now, as opposed to just the way the treat each other differently than everyone else in stressful situations, so it’s kind of cool the implication that showing them the way they are said to always have been is something we only really get to see in a romantic capacity. As if it’s to say that that is in fact an inseparable aspect of their natural state itself (they just couldn’t spoil that). It grew with them, but it’s always been woven into their relationship as it’s visible in more day-to-day settings. It’s not that it wasn’t there, just that we weren’t seeing them in day-to-day settings. This idea that accompanies it that of course they wouldn’t notice each other’s...queer(pun intended)...behaviour because when they talked about acting how they always were, this actually is exactly what they meant. This isn’t a change, it’s just how they are and always have been. We just haven’t gotten to see it until now so our reactions to it will be different than theirs because to them - this is nothing novel.

[paintingformike]

Bc, some people think those moments were meant to draw a contrast rather than a direct parallel.

People think that Will being in between Mike and El's scenes is not necessarily there to imply that Mike likes Will but rather is there to show Will's unrequited feelings, because Will was blurred whereas Robin was at the center of the scene where we watched her visibly being sad but Will was not sad, he was blurred in the background and when Mike and El have a forehead touch moment, he is entirely out of the picture.

Also, people do not exactly notice which music plays at which scenes. Only if they are interested in analyzing or searching, then they can find. Another example is, we know about the 'tender emotional music' because we focused on that and then made an analysis, but even then that wouldn't necessarily look like byler proof to the other parts of the audience, esp when that same music also plays for a melvin scene in one of the scenes where they talk.

It's also that Dan and Vickie broke up but Dan is just some random character, whereas El is a main character and we have been following Mike and El's relationship for seasons (that's how the audience thinks), and they gave Mike a huge monologue, whether or not we argue that it happened due to Will, it still happened. Even if Mike and El do not exactly talk, it does not look like a byler proof for some people but it rather looks like a casual relationship drama which will be resolved in S5 like Jonathan and Nancy's underaddressed situations.

I am saying this bc while I am a byler shipper and I think the narrative has a chance to make Byler fully canon, I also have many queer friends or in general friends who belong to GA, and I can also understand their points when they say that they do not see byler happening because majority of the proof that we have seem far-fetched, random or delusional to them.... or just not enough of proofs in general.

yes i literally just said i know people find it harder to believe in byler because main characters are involved in the love triangle whereas dan and vickie are side characters, and that’s as far as i’ll get their sentiments.

about all your other points, yeah i know that these are all reasons why people from the GA think most byler proofs are farfetched...but it doesnt mean their arguments are valid and understandable though lmao. the rovickie/byler parallels aren't even that hard to pick up on, and if it was only meant to contrast the two relationships then will being out of focus while robin isn’t wouldn’t be the ONLY thing different about their scenes cause everything else is pretty much identical to each other, mike and vickie even have similar conflicted expressions when they look at will and robin (and its ON THEM for not noticing that). also even if will is blurred out he still stands out the most cause he’s dead in the middle of mike and el’s faces and his figure immediately draws your attention (heck he was the first thing i noticed as a casual viewer while watching vol 2), which makes no sense for someone who’s supposed to be just “entirely out of the picture”...and about the monologue. something tells me its just double standards against a queer ship cause this isn’t exactly the first time a character seemingly professes their undying love for another character but still ends up with someone else 🤔

what im trying to say is yeah its true that they have all these reasons for not believing in byler endgame but at the end of the day...how am i just supposed to understand the points they have when they’re the ones who cant read into things that aren’t supposed to be very complicated when you have common sense, and i dont really think their thought process/reasonings are particularly strong anyway. also in this context...the rovickie/byler parallel is literally one of our least “random” byler proofs that just came out of thin air, its very much in your face so 😭 i guess i’d understand if you were talking about other more tiny background hints in relation to this topic but this one is pretty blatant...sorry for going into a tangent

[aemiron-main]

“the rainbows aren’t queercoding, it’s just the 80s”

it’s both. it can be both. the point is that it’s both. the point is about how queer people have always been here, hiding in plain sight- and hell, not even hiding, but visibly there, just like the rainbows, but it’s other people who aren’t able to see them, just like how many GA members brush off the rainbows as “just the 80s,” they don’t see the queerness or the queer people, it’s not queer peoples’ fault for not being seen, it’s the fault of those who don’t see them because they’re too wrapped up in their own biases and worldview. just like how people can’t see mike’s gayness even though they’re throwing evidence of it at us constantly, even though he’s around things like rainbow imagery constantly. especially since mike’s gayness isn’t presented the exact same way as Will’s gayness, and so people can’t see it because it deviates from their own expectations/stereotypes of what gay men are like. there’s nothing wrong with the way that mike’s gayness is presented, there’s nothing wrong with queer people who are invisible to society- instead, the issue is with other peoples’ perception and ability to see, not with queer peoples’ ability to BE seen.

“the rainbow room’s rainbows aren’t tied to queercoding.”

yes they are. they literally are. they’re not JUST queercoding, but they chose rainbows for a reason LMAO, and the parallels between the lab and conversion therapy and between brenner and robert galbraith heath specifically are part of the show. like what do you think that Virginia wanted to “fix” about Henry? She didn’t know about his powers initially, but wanted to fix him before they even got to hawkins/before henry unlocked his powers. Sure, she wanted to fix his mental health issues, but a large part of those “mental health issues” was his queerness, as the language that’s used to describe what was “wrong,” with Henry is identical to the language that Joyce uses in s1 to explain why people think that Will is gay.

things can have more than one meaning. often the POINT of things and certain imagery is that it has more than one meaning.

[blue-n-yellow]

(continuation of this post cuz i have more thoughts)

like….. it’s totally chill to not have/want a label!!!!

but the fact that for days now, it’s been released knowledge that will is gay, and has always been written as gay, and is in love with mike, and now a lead cast member is saying that the platonic bond between the actors is visible on screen, and that wills feelings may or may not be romantic, saying it doesn’t matter how things are labeled….

i dunno, it doesn’t feel… chill? queer characters and the love they have deserves to be called what it is, not thrown into question. there’s been so much homophobic backlash just from the cast saying will is gay, and so seeing someone with such a huge platform say it doesn’t matter isn’t the best sight. 

people hate that will is gay, think it’s disgusting, makes him a waste of screen time, etc etc, and seeing someone be dismissive of how important a queer main character (who’s love is referred to as “beautiful”) is, doesn’t feel v progressiv

will is gay, and in love with mike, and that’s a good thing- some people say it isn’t, which is why it’s important we double down, make sure it’s taken seriously, valued equally as serious love, and don’t… say it’s unimportant

[tearsofsaudade]

bacon @silvermining

you’d be hard pressed to find a straight comedian who isn’t a massive homophobe

trashstan @polter

responding to @silvermining

you’d be surprised to know trashmouth is actually an ally! he’s got a reputation for being a sweetheart to his queer fans and reportedly donates to a lot of LGBTQ+ charities!

bacon @silvermining

responding to @polter

oh nice! i didn’t know that!

trash @trashmouthtozier✅

responding to @silvermining

keep looking lmao

take the trash out :( @polter

i don’t think i’ve ever been so fucking upset with a celebrity in my life. no one talk to me :(

TRASHMOUTH TOZIER ANNOUNCES

HOMOPHOBIA TO DISAPPOINTED

FANS

bev <3 @beverlymarsh✅

@trashmouthtozier @benjaminhanscom @williamdenbrough @mikehanlon @edwardkaspbrak @urissquared this is the funniest fucking thing i’ve ever seen in my life [attached: article]

trash @trashmouthtozier✅

responding to @beverlymarsh

ARE YOU SHITTING ME RN???

eddie @edwardkaspbrak

responding to @trashmouthtozier

you fucking idiot

ben @benjaminhanscom✅

responding to @beverlymarsh

wow rich… incredibly disappointing

stan and pat @urissquared

responding to @beverlymarsh

brb framing this on the fridge

mickey mike @mikehanlon

responding to @beverlymarsh

a) who gave richie my password again b) this is upsetting for all of us… we expected more from someone we called a friend

bill @williamdenbrough✅

responding to @beverlymarsh

i think i speak for all of us when i say we truly never saw this coming :( in response i’ve decided to donate the next months worth of proceeds for all of my books to several LGBTQ+ charities. let it be known that we stand with pride for all of you.

trash @trashmouthtozier✅

responding to @williamdenbrough

I HATE ALL OF YOU SO FUCKING MUCH

trash @trashmouthtozier

FOR THE RECORD I WAS *TRYING* TO COME OUT AS NOT A STRAIGHT MAN

[attachment: a picture of richie in bed with another man. the man is curled into richies chest and therefore his face is not visible to the camera, but a pout is visible on richie’s face as well as a middle finger from the hand under the waist of the man he is, for lack of a better word, snuggling]

bev <3 @beverlymarsh✅

responding to @trashmouthtozier

this proves nothing

bacon @silvermining

responding to @trashmouthtozier

i don’t know what timeline we’re living in but i think someone dropped it

trashstan @polter

responding to @silvermining

i don’t give two shits this is the best day of my fucking life

[will80sbyers]

Sorry I also meant that it would be strange for Mike not to experience some self-hatred, not just that it would make sense. I think that’s one of the things that most queer people find relatable about mike especially, but to remove that would make the character very different. Maybe “self-hatred” isn’t the right word. I think will has for sure experienced more of that and feeling like a mistake and stuff. But even Nick Nelson experienced inner turmoil when he realized he was bi, and HS takes place now. ST takes place in the 80s. I can’t imagine that Mike would realize he likes boys/will and then immediately be fine with it in every way (if he wasn’t already dating El). I think the self inner turmoil is very visible on screen, from him eating less to blaming himself. But it sounds like you’re saying mike is perfectly chill with his future potentially being with a boy without any anxiety or terror

I don't think he is thinking that it's possible to have a future with a boy, that's probably why he doesn't have any "turmoil" yet except being awkward af, and I only said that I don't think he has internalized homophobia in the sense that he is not ashamed of it because of his characterization, they made Mike actively anti homophobic because they need Mike to almost immedialy get on board with the fact that Will loves him back... I'm thinking from a writing perspective because I think they will be doing byler in a climax... Mike is probably scared about having feelings for Will but he will not push him away when he finds out that Will has feelings for him

I don't know how to explain this in a better way sorry

[fuckspn]

not spn related but i’m posting this because i think it’ll be less controversial here than if i posted it on main

i think if you’re going to make a 70s/80s/90s nostalgia piece (which you shouldn’t, the genre is way oversaturated atm) with a gay character in it you should be legally required to make at least one character homophobic. they don’t have to be homophobic TO the gay character, this is not an “all gays in historical pieces have to Suffer for Realism” thing, and they can grow out of their homophobia, but if you’ve got a gay character living in a time period where casual homophobia was a huge part of the culture but you omit that casual homophobia from the show, you’re not really writing a gay character in a period piece, you’re writing a gay character in the modern day (or really some utopian hollywood version of the modern day where modern homophobia doesn’t exist) with a 70s/80s/90s aesthetic.

the worst offender in this category that i’ve seen is cruel summer, which is a show that i really enjoy but everything about the ben/vince romance drives me up the fucking wall, particularly the fact that them being potentially outed is presented as this huge threat and yet not a single person in the show ever says anything even vaguely homophobic and everyone who finds out about their relationship is instantly, unquestioningly accepting of them despite the fact that they live in a small conservative texas town in the 90s. (you’re telling me jamie isn’t even a little bit homophobic?? jamie??? fucking JAMIE.) everything sucks was slightly better about this since there definitely was homophobia at the school, but still the fact that the main character was instantly cool with his girlfriend being a lesbian was kind of. whatever. the it movies don’t count because chapter 2 was homophobic and richie never even came out to anyone.

stranger things and the get down are the only shows i can think of that actually handle the “characters accepting queer people despite living in a homophobic time period” thing well and that’s because in both cases the coming out scenes are handled in a way that makes sense. the get down has shao be shockingly calm and accepting of dizzee and thor, but a) shao is heavily implied to be gay too and b) he’s not, like, On Board with their relationship and encouraging them to be together, he’s just kind of like “whatever, your business is your business” and never talks about it again. in stranger things robin is clearly nervous throughout the whole bathroom scene and steve takes a little while to figure out what she’s even saying, and then he’s visibly shocked and needs a moment to come to terms with it because it’s so clear that the possibility of someone he knows and likes being gay was never even on his radar. and like i do think most of the main characters would accept will if he ever came out but a) that makes sense because most of them are outsiders in some way plus they deal with such insane shit that gay people don’t seem that weird in comparison, b) it’s been established/implied that joyce and jonathan have suspected for years that will is gay and have decided that they love him no matter what and just want him to be happy and authentically himself, and c) that acceptance doesn’t mean the characters have anachronistically modern feelings about sexuality—mike clearly feels bad about being accidentally homophobic to will in season 3 and tries to apologize, but he still did the homophobic thing! this insane screed brought to you by me waking up at 1:30 this morning and lying awake for 4 hours unable to get back to sleep

[freddiekluger]

I am all ears for your season 3 cap's big gay awakening ideas 👀👀

alright, you asked so sit down and strap in

before we get started- a few details are recycled/repurposed from earlier headcanons/ask answers (characterisation is like that), and i came up with all this a couple weeks back, so any overlap with other peoples suggestions is totally unintentional! i’ve just been finding the energy to properly write them up as originally i riffed them with a friend late at night lmao

the captain: homo evolution

introduction (scroll down if you’re not bothered for the hardcore analysis/logic)

this isn’t necessarily what i think WILL happen as much as how i would do it. over the past two seasons of Ghosts, we’ve seen the captain’s main character arc being centred around him loosening up, from learning to value mike, alison, and the other ghosts more as equals than soldiers/means to an end to the season 2 finale, where cap is not only expressing an interest in flowers and fashion (distinctly un-soldierly pursuits) but joining the party and other men (the direct opposite of About Last Night, in which cap bah humbugs partying/’gay abandon’ and is left speechless by the mere presence of a mostly naked man). that being said, the captain is still the captain: his character is still centred around this need for rules and structure and he still finds his identity in the archetypal WW2 military man- all of his incremental moves towards a more ‘modern’ perspective have ultimately been made possible because, like Ben said on twitter, the captain isn’t CONSCIOUSLY aware that he’s gay. he has the underlying feeling that he’s different, he knows of his tendency to attach himself to specific men and form incredibly close bonds (and, as demonstrated by his attempts to hide them, is at least somewhat aware that that’s not the norm), but in his mind he’s written that off as merely “not being a ladies man”. 

the captain is from the 1940s- it’s one thing for him to see and be supportive of a same-gender wedding in present day England where gay=legal unions, marketed doritos, and homophobia being still present but generally frowned upon, and another thing entirely for him to have to apply it to himself. we’ve already seen that the captain appears to be stuck in the past more than any of the other ghosts (”the war is over!” “is it, alison? is it?”- he also references the past more frequently than most of the others), and in his past sodomite gay=punishable by imprisonment and chemical castration, back alley hookups, and the constant threat of blackmail and violence. obviously, despite all this, there was a vibrant underground queer history taking place in England during this time & not all of the above is accurate, but it’s what cap would have seen, and the England of the early 20th century is denoted as being a particularly brutal period for lgbtq+ folks (the destruction of the first world war exacerbated rage and frustration, and lgbtq+ people weren’t the only gorup to end up on the receiving end of that, but i digress). this is basiclly just a really long way of me saying that the captain compartmentalising to that degree was, and to some extent is, a survival mechanism. confronting his homoseuxality means confronting what it means for a 1940s man to be a dreaded homosexual, and all of that directly conflicts with the image of ‘the Captain’ he’s built in his mind. 

we’ve seen this in Redding Weddy, where the captain is aware that Havers means/meant more to him than was normal for a captain/2ic relationship (he does attempts to hide his affection- “i shall miss you, Havers. by which of course i mean we shall miss you “he left me, i mean he left for the front”), but is never able to fully verbalise WHY, and it only takes a series of increasingly dramatic prompts before he will even mention the idea of Havers, let alone begin to articulate their relationship. 

all this just goes to prove that for the captain to properly ‘come out’, there needs to be an external inciting incident- he could easily have gone on shadowing attractive men whenever they visit and avoiding interrogating those feelings for another seventy years if Button house remained without alison and mike. 

while at least julian, pat, and robin have noticed that the cap is not the most heteroseual of men (they’re the only ghosts who have visibly reacted when cap says gay shit), they all appear to have decided to just not mention it, which makes alison and mike our wildcards. not only has alison’s ability to see and communicate with the ghosts already connected them more to the modern world than they ever have been, alison, and mike by extension, has a personal stake in the wellbeing/general growth of the ghosts. happy ghosts=happy house, and like it or not some of them are even beginning to become friends. [i probably didn’t need to write all this like explaining my decisions, but i think figuring out the motivations behind everyon just develops the flavour and lets us have a sexy and accurate headcanon]

so,

the episode

while the captain might not consciously know he’s a fruit (derogatory), he is well and truly terrible at concealing the thirst (it’s not his fault things just keep slipping out!)- i love the idea of just having a supercut near the beginning of the episode that just shows that the captain has gotten even GAYER since last season, with slip ups becoming almost a daily occurence, but it’s getting to the point where it’s actually becoming a serious hazard. last week, he was supposed to be looking out for alison while attempted to put up blinds, but one of mike’s friends (who was over ‘helping out’, which mostly meant eating chips and covering himself in paint) walked through the room with his shirt off and paint handprints on the seat of his shorts, distracting the captain from realising that alison’s stepladder was about to give way. 

with the increased presence of non elderly men in the house (the previous owner wasn’t exactly the life of the party) the captain is getting gayer and gayer, but he’s also becoming more and more defensive, while his brisk demeanour and need for control regresses to much more of a season 1 state (a subconscious attempt to regain control as things get close to spilling over). it’s not the first time his repression has almost slipped, he spent much of his life surrounded by soldiers after all, but with no war and no corporeal body he’s got almost nothing to distract himself from it. needless to say, between the safety hazards and the almost agressive defensiveness which derails any interaction, something needs to be done about the captain.

throughout the week, alison tries to find the opportune time to talk to the captain about what’s going on with him for everyone’s sake, but cap keeps masterfully evading any ‘deep’ talk with willful misunderstanding or just straight up dismissal (which at times gets a bit rude), and alison really doesn’t have the time- her and mike are caught up with managing the first official room redecoration and butting heads with a passive agressive delivery driver. insert general shenangigans, but at some point the captain’s whole “accidentally sabotage something by being distracted and then attack anyone who dares even look at him the wrong way afterwards” act causes alison to exasperatedly blurt out “we all know you’re gay! we get it! you like men! you can drop the act!”. there’s no malice or anything but, as we know, when alison gets run ragged things don’t tend to come out quite right.

everything falls silent (and mike is vaguely confused), and the captain just looks like a deer in headlights. as alison catches her breath, pat pipes up with a “it’s alright, cap, we don’t mind- now we can focus on the task at hand”. the captain sort of regains his composure and once again attempts to brush them all off with a scoff and a “i haven’t the faintest idea what you’re talking about. if any of us is distracted, i-it’s... kitty!” but it’s easy to tell he looks rattled. most of his words don’t come out right, and after trying to blame kitty for their failures (she just had the unfortunate luck of being in his line of sight), he ends up doing an awkward little walk away which quickly turns into a full on sprint. mike, having finished processing alison yelling about gay shit to the air and kind of pieced together what must have happened awkwardly chimes in with “it’s okay to be gay!”- alison just pats him on the back (”yeah no he’s gone, mike.” “gone?” “sprinted away.” “huh”)

the episode continues with the captain flat out avoiding alison and the other ghosts to an almost funny extent as the other plots continue. it takes a bit for alison to realise why the captain reacted so badly (in fact, it’s actually mike who remembers that he’s 1940s ghost- “he’s probably just scared and taking it out on everyone else”). while thomas and julian vote for leaving the captain be so they can have some peace and quiet, fanny/pat/alison/robin decide someone needs to talk to him (fanny surprised everyone but after all, she got murdered because her husband had to live in secrecy- if talking to the captain will avert any further crises, she’s happy to make sure someone else does it for her). kitty’s still upset about being singled out, but she knows better than anyone that sometimes all you need is a friend- cue realisation no. 2.

with the captain avoiding everyone, sending in a regular emissary isn’t going to work. they need to find the least threatening person possible, with no agenda or history other than being there to help (a friend, if you will)- cue everyone looking at mike.

a quick offscreen briefing later, we see mike wandering out to the field where the captain has exiled himself- remember that up until this point, the captain was still in conscious denial about his sexuality, so being forced to confront it head on (and finding out that apparently everyone ‘knew’, which for cap would feel like an intimate invasion of privacy/forced vulnerability) would rattle him to the point of self-exile- he might not be able to run from his sexuality, but he can run from people. the thing is, mike can’t see or hear the ghosts, which means the captain can’t be frightened off by any expectations (mike actually talks to/at cap while facing completely the wrong direction, but consdiering the above point, this works rather well). 

the captain was alternating between pacing, fiddling with his swagger stick, and sitting, but he unconsciously stands to attention as mike wanders over. he’s used to mike not being able to see them, so mike asking to sit down takes him by surprise, disrupting his instinct to flee again.

mike begins a little awkwardly (”mind if i sit?” *silence* “...i’m just gonna assume that’s a no. or is it a yes? yeah anyways i’m just gonna sit. so... heard you’ve been going through a rough patch”), and the captain almost scoffs and wanders off, but something about the clumsy earnestness in mike’s voice, the captain’s vulnerable state, and the fact that it’s been so long since cap has had anyone actually check in on him, that he stays put. he keeps standing and staring away from button house, and mike keeps speaking to the empty air to his left, and alison and the ghosts stay hidden behind their bush a few metres away, but at least the captain is listening. for the first time in weeks, he’s not on the offensive.

“i can’t actually see or hear you, so i’m just gonna talk and assume you’re listening. alison mentioned you have a habit of running away but, um, maybe don’t do that please?”

“my mate daniel's gay. uh, homosexual, you’d probably say- did you have gay when you were alive? did it just mean happy? anyway, he didn’t come out- that means tell people- until he left high school. we all kind of guessed it, the other kids at school gave him a real tough time for it, but he just squashed it down. couldn’t imagine that all the things people were shouting at him were true, so he ignored it. he’s doing good now though. got married to his husband last year, currently runs a bookshop. so that’s nice.”

it goes quiet for a bit. the captain hasn’t moved, and we’re still only seeing shots of him from the back, but there’s a little less tension in his stance than there was before.  mike clears his throat before continuing.

“i’m guessing you’re probably pretty scared right now. i would be- i mean not that you should be, you shouldn’t, but coming from your... situation, i’m guessing it’d be hard. no one’s saying you have to be anything you’re not ready to be, but lots of things that are scary are actually not bad. airplanes, skydiving, clowns- well, not the clown from that movie, but he gives clowns a bad rep- i’m sure there are plenty of lovely clowns out in the world. still give me the creeps though.” the captain makes a captain-y noise of assent about the clown comment- he never liked them either. 

mike glances over to the bush where alison and the ghosts were attempting to listen in (they could only catch every few words- mary got particularly concerned about why mike had referenced clowns), and the captain still hasn’t run away, so alison motions for mike to keep going. he starts telling the captain a story from his uni days. it’s got nothing to do with the captain, or being gay, or self-acceptance, or anything like that- it’s just a standard tale of comedic but inventive problem solving. the captain sits himself down next to mike (to his right, avoiding mike’s gaze, and still staring away from button house), muttering that his legs are getting a bit tired. he sits there for a while, and mike just talks. sometimes he circles back to the gay thing, sometimes he just asks the captain questions, before remembering that he can’t actually hear any answer, but then he keeps asking anyway, thinking that cap might need to talk. he doesn’t at first, but slowly he offers up a word or two. and then a sentence, and then maybe more- mike will accidentally cut the captain off, or leave the silence to long, but the captain doesn’t mind (it’s a nice reminder that nothing he says will actually go on to have consequence). at one point, mike gets out his phone to show the captain photos of his mate daniel and daniel's husband, not just their wedding day but casual photos- couples drinks with him and alison, dinners at each other's places, the bookshop. 

alison and the other ghosts have long gone, and the sun is just about to sink below the horizon by the time the captain stands himself back up with the traditional knee crack and grunt. he looks at mike and nods, giving him a simple thank you before turning to walk (not run) back to button house, head held slightly higher and looking more relaxed than he’s been all episode. the captain has still got a lot to figure out, but at least it’s a start.

[i love the dramatic ending but the implication is that alison has to go and fetch mike bc he has no ideas cap has left and is prepared to keep going lol- also by no means is cap suddenly going to ditch his characterisation and become a yas kween gay right away, i didn’t go into the aftermath bc this is alreayd fucking LONG but let me know if you want follow up????}

EDIT: i've rbed this with the follow up/part 2 attached!

EDIT 2, much later: switched out mike's reference to his 'younger brother' to a school friend, since the christmas special confirmed mike only has sisters and we're all about accuracy here