#pronouns discourse

[deandraxon]

Y’all seriously need to drop the “masculine = man” and “feminine = woman” bs before I hit you with a chair.

Masculine women exist. Feminine men exist. Nonbinary people exist.

If a woman wants to use masculine pronouns, let him. If a man wants to use feminine pronouns, let her. If a nonbinary person wishes to use either, let them.

Pronouns do not always equal gender. Lesbians have been using he/him for centuries. Primarily as a response to homophobia. “BuT tHaT’s NoT aN iSsUe AnYmOrE, gAy PeOpLe ArE aCcEpTEd NoW” shut the fuck up. That literally does not matter, and it’s not even true. Homophobia is still a problem, whether you like it or not.

Let people use whatever labels and pronouns they want for themselves. Go outside. Touch some grass. Talk to other queer people irl, and shut the fuck up.

[noaestheticacademic]

On the Identity of "Chat"

Like all the linguistics folks on Tumblr, I've been sent the "chat is a fourth person pronoun" post by a bunch of well-meaning people and and I've been thinking waaay too much about it. @hbmmaster made a wonderful post explaining exactly why "chat" ISN'T a fourth person pronoun, and after reading it I wanted to go a little deeper on what it might actually be doing linguistically, because it is a really interesting phenomenon. Here's a little proposal on what might be going on, with the caveat that it's not backed up by a sociolinguistic survey (which would be fun but more than I could throw together this morning).

On Pronouns

Studying linguistics has been really beneficial for me because understanding that language is constantly changing helped me to become comfortable with using they/them pronouns for myself. I've since done a decent amount of work with pronouns, and here are some basic ideas.

A basic substitution test shows that "chat" is not syntactically a pronoun: it can't be replaced with a pronoun in a sentence.

"Chat, what do we think about that?"

"He*, what do we think about that?" (* = ungrammatical, a native speaker of English would think it sounds wrong)

Linguists identify pronouns as bundles of features identifying the speaker, addressee, and/or someone outside the current discourse. So, a first person pronoun refers to the speaker, a second person pronoun refers to the addressee, and a third person pronoun refers to someone who is neither the speaker nor the addressee (but who is still known to the speaker and addressee). This configuration doesn't leave a lot of room for a "fourth" person. But the intuition people have that "chat" refers to something external to the discourse is worth exploring.

Hypothesis 1: Chat is a fourth-person pronoun.

We've knocked this one right out.

Hypothesis 2: Chat is an address term.

So what's an address term? These are words like "dude, bro, girl, sir" that we use to talk to people. In the original context where "chat" appears - streamers addressing their viewers - it is absolutely an address term. We can easily replace "chat" with any of these address terms in the example sentence above. It's clear that the speaker is referring to a specific group (viewers) who are observing and commenting on (but not fully participating in) the discourse of the stream. The distinction between OBSERVATION and PARTICIPATION is a secret tool that will come in handy later.

But when a student in a classroom says "wow chat, I hate this," is that student referring to their peers as a chat? In other words, is the student expecting any sort of participation or observation by the other students of their utterance? Could "chat" be replaced with "guys" in this instance and retain its nuance? My intuition as a zillenial (which could be way off, please drop your intuitions in the comments) is that the relationship between a streamer and chat is not exactly what the speaker in this case expects out of their peers. Which brings me to...

Hypothesis 3: chat is a stylistic index.

What's an index in linguistics? To put it very simply, it's anything that has acquired a social meaning based on the context in which it's said. In its original streaming context, it's an address term. But it can be used in contexts where there is not a chat, or even any group of people that could be abstracted into being a chat. Instead, people use this linguistic structure to explicitly mimic the style which streamers use.

And that much seems obvious, right? Of course people are mimicking streamers. It doesn't take a graduate degree to figure that out. What's interesting to me is why people choose to employ streaming language in certain scenarios. How is it different from the same sentence, minus the streamer style?

This all comes down to the indexicality, or social meaning, of streamer speak. This is where I ask you all to take over: what sorts of attitudes and qualities do you associate with that kind of person and that kind of speech? I think it has to do with (here it comes!) the PARTICIPANT/OBSERVER distinction. By framing speech as having observers, a speaker takes on the persona of someone who is observed - a self-styled celebrity. To use "chat" is to position oneself as a celebrity, and in some cases even to mock the notion of such a position. We can see a logical path from how streamers use "chat" as an address term to how it is co-opted to reference streamer culture and that celebrity/observer relationship in non-streaming mediated discourse. If we think about it that way, then it's easy to see why the "fourth person pronoun" post is so appealing. It highlights a discourse relationship that is being invoked wherein "chat" is not a group but a style.

[autismvampyre]

i fucking HATE when people have a moral objection to it/its pronouns and refuse to use them based on principle

"oh but it's dehumanizing!" THATS THE POINT. that's literally the fucking point. i personally use it/its pronouns because as a neurodivergent person i feel a disconnect to other neurotypical people. i don't feel quite human, and not in a bad way, just in a "im not quite human" way. some people straight up just don't identify as human, and thats fine too. it's their business.

"it makes me uncomfortable" ok. and?? that's not my problem. if my queer identity - that does not fucking affect you - makes you uncomfortable; that's a YOU problem. can you imagine if we gave every transphobe a pass on misgendering because using the correct pronouns "made them uncomfortable"?? i see a lot of fellow queer folk using this excuse to not use it/its pronouns as if its not the exact same talking points used by bigots.

not everything that makes you uncomfortable is automatically evil and bad. i feel uncomfortable wearing lots of colour, does that make it morally bad for other people who do like colourful clothes to wear what they like? no! that would be insane. people are gonna do stuff that personally makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't make it automatically bad. if someone peacefully existing and using it/its pronouns makes you uncomfortable then that seems like something you have to work on to get over, because people are not gonna stop existing in the way they feel most comfortable with just because you dont like it.

TLDR; get over yourself. you are not the center of the universe and someone else using it/its pronouns DOES NOT AFFECT YOU.

[bossyball]

Since I am having a Bad Day right now and I think my family members are making up their "nonbinary friends" who are personally offended by my existence-

And since I want this to reach the outer corners of Tumblr, not just my mutuals who I know are okay with my pronouns, please reblog!!!

[t4transsexual]

first time talking about smth not trans/t4t related on here but yall are really fuckin awful to aro/ace ppl. like i see like "u cant identify as asexual until ur 18 its an inappropriate sexuality for a child to have" and its like ok thats just like homophobia/transphobia again. u just made queerphobia again. do you know how many times i heard that its weird for me to identify as trans "so young" (i was 16)? and like "u cant identify as aro/ace if ur traumatized cause what if its just the trauma" ok and what if trauma with men made a girl a lesbian? you just made homophobia again. and dont even get me started on "WELL WHAT IF THERES AN AROMANTIC HETEROSEXUAL CIS MAN WHO WANTS TO BE QUEER" and oh yeah im sure youre so scared of "predator men" invading your spaces sike u just made transphobia again. like at what point will we as queer people stop attacking our queer siblings and collaborate as a community to create meaningful change? at what point?

[gale-dekarios]

gripping your shoulders. you know that topping, bottoming, domming, and subbing isnt something you can see on a person, right? you understand that someones general personality isnt the same thing as how they like to take it, right?? you understand you cant tell if a person is a dom or a sub, a top or a bottom unless they have personally told you or youve had sex with them regardless of any factors that would make you think otherwise, RIGHT???

[sqlatoon]

HAPPY 1 YEAR ANNIVERSARY TO SHIVER SPLATOON GENDER DISCOURSE!!!

[totally-ikea]

There’s nothing in the world that makes me as angry as when a person says “I’m lgbtq and I agree with you” when someone says neopronouns are disgusting or ruining the kids.

Like. Shut the fuck up?? Actually stop talking. I don’t want to hear you’re voice.

[ty-bayonet-betteridge]

QUEERS ON HERMITCRAFT

Gem - Bisexual

Cleo - Bisexual, she/they nb

Joehills & Xisuma - Any pronouns kings

Doc - Pirate

[cavaliercanine]

ive been thinking about this for a while and y'know. there isn't actually a big difference between someone asking you not to refer to them as human and someone asking you to use gender neutral language for them. ive seen fellow queer people (mostly on twitter) whine and scream and shit their pants over being asked to not call someone human, as if that is somehow different from a transphobe throwing a fit about being asked to use singular they for someone? how often does that even come up? do you seriously refer to others often enough with the word "human" that being asked not to is a major inconvenience? I don't know how to finish this post but you get the idea it's hypocritical and annoying

[paskariu]

Gender neutral pronouns in a language that doesn't have them (German edition)

So, the post about how anglicised queer discussions are possessed me to look up the most "common" gender neutral neopronoun that has been invented in German: Xier

Common is in quotation marks because outside of queer circles, you'll be hard pressed finding anyone who even knows about it.

German is a gendered language; being gender neutral is next to impossible. Either you move to the generic masculine version, or a more new-ish female version. Either way you're either assigning yourself a male or female grammatical gender which when talking about people is also a gender signifier.

So you, a queer person, would like to NOT be referred to as either male or female. So your options are:

a) suck it up

b) put xier in bio

Ok, queer person. You selected option b). Now you're faced with the newest issue: People don't know how to use your pronoun. "Ah, just put 'xier/xies'! Just like the English speakers." A quiet part of your mind screams.

You put "xier/xies" down. Personal and Possessive Pronouns. Easy.

Ah, wait we're still missing the relative pronoun. Something which is also gendered in German.

You add "dier". Easy. Relative pronoun acquired.

Xier/Dier/Xies

"Why are there three?" A confused anglophone might ask.

"Where is the rest?" Another German asks. Where is the rest of the grammar. You can't use only the first case in a sentence....

We're still missing the other 3 grammatical cases.

Xier/Dier/Xies Xieser/Dies/Xiese Xiem/Diem/Xiesem Xien/Dien/Xieses There we go. All cases and all pronoun types. But possessive pronouns are dependent on the gender of the thing being possessed. Great. 3 more grammar forms per case for possessive pronouns. And we need another one. What if we're talking about another gender neutral person? Neuter (usually) isn't used to refer to people...

In the end, if you want to include everything, you end up with this

Just tell them your pronouns.

[mage-propaganda]

So many people miss the point of my original post and I’m tired of it so come clarification:

Yes, some guys suck. Some guys are really horrible people, who do horrible things. This isn’t news to anyone! Though it might be surprising for some to learn that there are women out there who suck, are terrible people, and do terrible things too. Neither of these things are the point!

If you’re dating a man, maybe don’t constantly shit on him for a funny little thing like ~gender~ which he can’t really control. A lot of people will make fun of and hate the old boomer mindset of “I hate my wife” jokes and then will turn around and do the exact same fucking thing to their boyfriends. It’s stupid! It’s annoying! And it’s extremely prevalent in the queer, more specifically bisexual, community (aimed at both bi men and women) to the point it can just be straight up Homophobic at times (why tf you shaming a bi man for having boyfriend instead of a wife??).

“Oh but Bees, I have trauma! I can’t help hating men and looking at the person I want as my boyfriend in utter disgust” then don’t date! Go to therapy, work on yourself! Don’t subject some poor dude to constant vitriol because you refuse to work yourself! I swear to everything good people on this app, and others, will shit on disabled people, and neurodivergent people, for being disabled and needing some extra assistance from their partners sometimes (something they often CANT help)… and then turn around and be like “but actually…my trauma means I can verbally abuse my boyfriend for being a man :/// thanks :///“.

There, now all the sorry-ass-joy-sucking motherfuckers can shut the fuck up!! Here’s clarification!! If you see happy gay couples, or a confident trans man in a healthy relationship, or something and feel the need to add a rant about your failed relationship with a dude (so they can’t be happy either) maybe pick up journaling or something! Get hobbies! Enjoy life! And maybe stop with all your bad takes!!

[urban0primitive]

If I see one more person bitching about the “it” pronouns or “bi lesbian” label you are banished. That’s it. It has 9 girlfriends and hacked the fucking no fly list!! You wish you could comprehend it’s swag

[wyrmoftheweb]

this is a positivity post for it/its users because we are all sooo fucking awesome! whether you use it/its pronouns as a form of reclamation, because your sense of gender is connected to something inhuman, because you simply like them, or for any other reason, YOU are great and i hope your day is, too!!

[marzipanandminutiae]

the Reddit they/them discourse (explanation) has escalated. we now have:

one person who regularly uses the wrong pronouns for friends and partners who use He or She series exclusively, and who compared being asked to only use he or she for someone to being asked to call a Black person the N-word. they refused to clarify or elaborate. this person is white, FYI

multiple people claiming they've Never Met A Queer Person Who Wasn't Okay With Being Called They/Them and That's So Weird (?)

one person who said it's ableist to insist that they/them pronouns not be used for yourself because some people have memory issues and different pronouns are hard to keep straight. but it's Totally Different if someone has memory issues and calls a they/them person he or she. that's Bad but the other way around is fine. somehow

(the above person said I sounded exhausting to be around. for [checks notes] expecting people to use the correct pronouns for me)

the vast majority of comments are normal and follow the standard way I've always thought pronouns worked- "these are my pronouns! please use them and no others when talking about me specifically!" -but. ye gods. we're amassing quite a rogues gallery

[socialjusticeinamerica]