#queer antagonism

[posi-pan]

Sorry for the negativity, but something that's always made me feel disillusioned about the whole pansexual discourse is that I see the phrase "pansexuals are biphobic and transphobic" alongside extremely similar talking points both from otherwise far-left, pro-queer people trying to present themselves as radical and progressive, and those old anti-MOGAI, anti-nonbinary, transmedicalist, "anti-SJW", etc. blogs.

Like, you have one group of panphobes who are saying "pansexuality is bad because that's the progressive viewpoint, actually" and another group that go "pansexuality is bad because it's a cringe Tumblr SJW identity" but despite supposedly having entirely different stances, here they are saying nearly the exact same anti-pan talking points. You kinda have to wonder why that is.

exactly that. insert that spiderman meme here. queer folks who hate pansexuality more often than not are also some other kind of queerphobic, usually transphobes/terfs, and think tumblr ruined queerness (but that doesn’t stop them from using it lol) or that mogai queers make the community look bad or that self-identification and validity are harmful or think science/academia is the final say on queerness or or or or. just a lot of general shitty views on queerness that go beyond their panphobia and it’s very telling. like, their panphobia is a one off. it’s a product of a foundational hatred of queer people, a backwards, oppressive view of queerness, and a desperate desire to be one of the good queers. they’re just a sad, hateful group of people tbh. (and no worries, i didn’t find the message negative. it’s a good point to be made!)

[loveoaths]

jedi maul: orderly, fastidious, a massive fucking nag, weird mix of rule breaker and rule follower, standoffish and sulky with a tendency toward the extreme. no one wants to give him a padawan and he doesn’t want to take one, but when he does wind up with one he trains them in the most extreme way possible, an unfortunate by product of his short but damaging tenure as a sith apprentice before he was brought to the temple at age 10. has definitely pushed a padawan off a building once so they’d learn to force pull and grab onto a ledge. (why is everyone mad at him. it WORKED, didn’t it?) surprisingly smooth and elegant despite his preference to solve problems decisively (or, as he’d call it, with “situationally appropriate displays of force” aka violence). despite this, he’s not at all an out of control jedi, though he will always struggle not to grasp for the dark side when scared. has a vague memory of having siblings and, despite many reminders not to, is secretly looking for them; this need to find his brothers could become an attachment if he isn’t careful, and becomes his biggest draw to lean on the dark side once again. has a complicated (read: negative) relationship to dathomir, and vacillates violently between wishing to know more about where he comes from and being angry that mother talzin essentially sold him to the dark side. his ongoing struggles have delayed his promotion to master. his insecurities make him believe he just isn’t good enough, which upsets him, when in reality his spirit is unsettled and the council doesn’t want to ask more of him until he’s ready. but maul has a Complex About Everything and thinks he’s being judged for being sith-trained. has a rival-friendship with obi wan (but if you ask him he will deny this. kenobi who?) oddly enough he’s good friends with depa. caleb dume likes to bicker with him. because of course maul would argue with a child.

jedi ventress: the chaos to maul’s order and discipline. even as a jedi she is a wild child, and enjoys causing problems for reasons. he avoids her most of the time, but he eventually becomes a peer-mentor-sort when he realizes she also struggles to stay in the Light. (alternatively, if she was significantly younger in this au, she could be his goblin padawan. he throws her off twice as many buildings.) if maul is pissed off, guaranteed either ventress, kenobi, or vos are involved.

[variousqueerthings]

something about asexuality that is underappreciated is its potential to recontextualise -- this is true of queer reads + disabled reads generally, but asexuality is very much still widely in a space considered unworthy of looking at closer, because for many people it simply represents “not doing anything.” 

this also embedded in irl acephobic wank that claims it’s “not as queer” as other kinds of queerness, because again, all that is perceived is a surface-level idea that as it is apparently just “not having sex,” that must mean it is at odds with liberatory queer sexual theory/practice 

and so what does this apparent “not doing anything” have to say about our fictional reads? what does it say about desires for closeness, lack of language or gain of language, what does it say about characters who have never had sex, or about characters who have? what does it say about (lack of) agency and consent? about desire? how does it play into bdsm and kink? into concepts of sexiness and attractiveness (both wanting or not wanting to be perceived as such and perceiving or not perceiving of others as such)? into bodies and our relationships with them? how does it recontexualise characters goals or lack of goals for life? how does it put them at odds with social expectations for them in the times/stories they exist in? 

and once one starts asking actual curious questions, one can easily see that a character being read as -- or, hell being, if we’re so lucky -- asexual, is potentially doing a heck of a lot! 

[plato-repulsed-culture-is]

This blog means a lot to me since I didn't even know I could call it platonic repulsion or an actual boundary to not like fluffy friendy stuff. Up until now I thought the right term for me was "flaming asshole"

I'm glad you found a term that fits !! And tbh thats kind of how I felt until I realised that plato repulsed and aplatonic are terms that ppl can id with and realised they fit me!! I feel like ppl think you must be misanthropic, or hate people, or are in some way immoral or broken if you don't like or relate to something people see as so innocent and essential to peoples lives, like they view friendship.

I feel like in media centered around 'the power of friendship' the villains who aren't 'redeemable' almost always just are characterised as evil assholes for being disgusted by and/or disliking friendship. (Some notable examples are Queen Chrysalis from MLP:FIM, and Eggman/Ivo Robotnik from Sonic The Hedgehog). And this isn't far from how people irl tend to view ppl who don't like and/or feel repulsed by friendship.

Plato repulsion is not really about directing hatred towards people who have or want friends, or even all people as a whole, and people need to understand that. It just means we feel repulsion towards friendship and/or platonicism, which is a morally neutral emotion.

Part of the reason I made this sideblog was to talk about being plato repulsed more and also allow other people to talk about their experiences with plato repulsion, because its not often discussed or even understood, especially outside of aplatonic spaces.

I think some ppl also assume that plato repulsion is just 'jealousy' of people who have lots of friends (I genuinely thought my plato repulsion was this before because ppl act like everyone has friends and if they don't they assume they want friends, or are friendless because people don't like them and not because they want to not have friends and/or have difficulty making friends, etc.). Or they assume we have to just find "the right people" to like friendship, when its not necessarily the case.

Sure, a plato repulsed person could realise theyre not plato repulsed later on, just like could happen w sex repulsed or romance repulsed, etc. But that doesn't mean this is the case for everyone, and that doesn't invalidate the experiences of those of us who remain plato repulsed. Plato repulsion is not something that needs to be 'fixed'.

Anyways, congratulations on finding a term that fits your experiences, and I'm sorry that society is not very respectful of boundaries surrounding friendship and/or people feeling negative emotions or repulsion towards it.

[tench]

I wonder if people in the tags under my Wilf drawing are really thinking that it's me who is mad that people are horny for him? Because I'm not stupid, I drew him Like That for a reason, and even if it wasn't my initial intention I honestly never mind people having a good time? And it's not that I'm petty, it's just The Most Popular thing I've done ever and sometimes he's resurfacing again and people leave the same comment. I know I won't ever beat the allegations. But I'm still sad about it.

[bilesbianblog]

Bi-lesbian culture is:

Getting bullied on TikTok trying to get the message out that we belong too. :(

🌈

[doeeyeddyke]

.

[silverskye13]

Continuing on my saga of, Skye rants about Epic/High Fantasy and should probably give up but hasn't yet:

I know fat-shaming in general is a problem in media, but what is it about high/epic fantasy specifically that makes them hate anyone overweight? Like I know the stereotype is the main character will be a lean and fit swordsman, or a spindly mage or whatever, but some of these books are just killing me.

Riyria Revelations called out fatness/overweight characters constantly, and they were only ever foppish antagonists too obsessed with food and drink to do anything productive besides being a minor inconvenience. Describing people with saddlebag cheeks, or stomachs that tumble over belts and pin them in furniture. Free the Darkness has a bad problem with caricaturizing people in general, but the first overweight person we run into is described as being so contemptuously fat he can't even pull his sword from his scabbard, contrasted by the main character who is chiseled and beautiful and perfect in his deadliness. Dragons of Autumn Twilight has a goblin who is so "disgustingly overweight" his belly rolls over his saddle horn, and is once again represented as a piggish, idiot antagonist. And that's not getting into the narrators for these audiobooks who make piggish voices for these characters because they're fat so of course they would.

It makes me kinda hot blooded tbh. Like we get it authors, you hate fat people. I think the thing that gets me about it the most is they don't describe other people like this? Someone who is super skinny isn't described as sickly, clammy and pale, with a stereotype for painful social awkwardness. Super strong men are sometimes noted to be a little duller than the average, playing to that stereotype, but they're not rendered dullardly and useless, instead their strength is still played as a formidable challenge. But fat people? Oh no, in the eyes of our godlike, sculpted protagonists, anyone who has a few more pounds packed on is stupid, slow and useless, clearly only in power because of birthright and appointment and no other reason, waiting to be unseated the minute someone fit for their position [and infinitely stronger, quicker and more deadly] can sweep them off it -- all while deriding how hard it is to clean up their massive bodies in the process.

I just get really, really tired of reading it.

I will say I really liked Paladin's Strength, because the main female character Clara is described as being a bigger woman, but that doesn't stop the fact that she can turn into a bear and wreck house any time she wants. Granted, she's also 6ft tall and strong-big instead of fat-big, but I'll take the victories I'm given.

[posi-pan]

Not necessarily cops, but I’ve noticed a lot of panphobes (who are either bi or “supportive” of bi folks) equate being pansexual with being a sex addict, cheaters, an abusive partner, forcing open relationships etc… and it’s like, you do realize you’re just recycling the shitty arguments that used to excuse biphobia, right? Like, how can you claim you’re “supporting” bi people or be proudly bi yourself but you’re literally just spewing classic biphobic takes? I’m not bi (obv lol) but if I see people using queerphobic arguments to “defend” pansexuality, it makes me angry, because it does nothing to actually support us and it’s also just obviously queerphobic. Like damn, okay… I guess if it’s a queerphobic argument being used to be panphobic specifically, it’s totally fine 🙄

right!!! the way people will excuse and recycle queerphobia they otherwise condemn as long as it's directed at pan people is wild. like. that's some fucked up dedication to hating us for nothing.

[kefnut-the-gweilologist]

hunh

[himborightsactivism]

you ever think that the reason some of us are so drawn to the jets is because we are them? we came from deprived communities, we were raised to be racist/homophobic, we didn't know any better, and we were backhanded as juvenile delinquents for showing signs of mental illness instead of being given resources, but we either dug our own way out or we finally got help. we know firsthand that these boys can change and we crave a world where they do. so yes, that is why some people "like" the jets. because we literally were the jets.

[phosphorusab]

I cannot fucking believe that there are people “no angel-ing” Nex Benedict because they poured water on these random girls who had been harassing them (and had been harassing them prior, despite not knowing them). If it had been their cishet kids who were being bullied, they wouldn’t have a problem if their kids poured water on someone. And now there’s psychos saying Nex deserved to get beaten for responding to being antagonized.

This always happens, a queer person isn’t a ‘perfect victim’, it’s okay for them to die. And even if they were perfect victim, it’s still somehow acceptable. This happens to every marginalized person who snaps one day due to abuse, and gets killed.

And the excuses only get more and more stupid. “Oh they were no angel, they poured water on somebody”. Yeah, after being bullied for a year straight every school day. It’s almost like every human has their limit of fucks to give and shit to take.

I hate all of you ‘no angel’ people even more than I hate people regurgitating misinformation about how Nex died, based off of what the corrupt school and the fucking bastard cops (who are allowed to lie) say. Even the cops suspect foul play. Listen to the 911 call, that’s a head injury. Dozens of people who’ve had experiences with someone getting a head injury and dying later on will tell you that.

[xtrablak674]

I am soooooooooooo tickled by this because Mr. Wayans was VERY homo-antagonistic towards me in high school. I love this and the fact that all my former siblings have queer kids. #RevengeBestServedCold

It just feels like just desserts, not that it's a punishment having a queer child. But when you are the perpetrator of violence or animosity towards queer folks the best way to open your eyes is having a queer child, in my opinion. Now, this isn't saying that this will change someone's xenophobia but if they truly love their child it may be a proverbial push towards reevaluating their beliefs in relation to their child and possibly the world at large.

I am NOT clapping for him, you're correct he's no Dwayne Wade. I would love to see him reconcile his and his families past treatment towards queer folks, and where they are now, I think that is the kind of thing the wider public can learn from.

I speak of Mr. Wayans family because even in high school he was working on In Living Color, and the 'family' clearly had a stance on the LGBT community and we would be fooling ourselves if this was unbridled acceptance like the Wade family.

As someone who has faced xenophobic responses to who I am and the intersectionality of my identities I give a side-eye to these kind of stories, because no one should be clapping for Marlon Wayans.

I am going to be gracious and comment albeit I don't know him personally, I only attended high school with him decades ago, but from what I have observed of current interviews and appearances he has seemed to grown from the person he was in high school. This is something I would hope for everyone, but I can't just give you a free-pass for your behavior with out some culpability on your part, that you have intentionally or unintentionally harmed people who are just like your child.

[Photo by Brown Estate]

[snekdood]

shiva accepts all rejected living beings, which is why i know he’ll always be there for me even if the world is against me for the dumbest fucking reason.

[honestlyvan]

I think I get what you mean about the weird found family stuff. I also don't really love shipping stuff, but, at least in the last couple of years, I find people get real weird about stuff like "oh he's the found family dad" sort of thing. It's hard to describe why it weirds me out, but I think it's that compulsion to give the characters "roles" in the found family stuff, where when I think of irl friends who are as close to me as family, I don't think of them as like a "sibling", they're just in my mind categorized under "family".

Of course this isn't even mentioning the weird sex negative stuff. Sometimes I want characters to have freaky weird sex stuff in their lives! Unsanitized. People into genfic can be weird about that stuff.

Yeah like for me it was the worst during the height of XC2's popularity and the absolute wealth of raging about the anime fanservice game having anime fanservice in it and the desperate urge to Divest From The Queer Horny that came with it. I don't know if the majority of the people perpetuating the moral panic eventually realised they were just useful idiots and the Killing The God That Supplanted Reality franchise was the place to get into endless unnecessary tailspins about sexual purity or not but it definitely put me off on quite a permanent basis in trying to do anything that deals with eroticism in this franchise.

It was all very prescriptivist, it was all very twee, it was all trying so hard to be cuddly and nonthreatening and safe, and it just got so uncomfortable when people were bringing all their deeply sexual baggage into the conversation over a story that, as horny as it was in places, just completely lacked any sort of genuine eroticism to me. The very few things that were hot to me that I was interested in exploring were completely ignored by-and-large, disinteresting to anyone but me, specifically. And I just couldn't get a conversational foothold about them with anyone, so I gave up.

So I kinda have this same problem with XC3 atm where I actually do find some things in it really damn hot and I am embracing the eroticism and then.... I just fail to find people with similar interests so I have no good fic to read and nobody to really talk to about it. (I've dragged two people into XC3 with me to have someone to wordvomit about the OTP to). The overt hostility against sex isn't as present, in my experience, but even if people didn't titter around the sexual aspects of the story as much.... IDK man I am tired and I am not a teenager anymore at this point themes of self-discovery and adolescence and normative pairbonding just don't do shit for me. None of it is queer and weird enough, nobody here is that attractive to me anyway, I'd much rather read gen, but then the gen is also kinda just. Like that lol.

And I know I'm probably biased, I definitely read less Xenofic than I'd like to because I look at how stuff is tagged and the summary and go "is it worth the disappointment" when there's probably good writing being done out there and I'm not giving it a chance b/c I'm fucking bitter. Like it's entirely possible that just like XC1 and XC2 didn't really have a ton of overlap in the fandom, XC2 and XC3 don't also and the things I'm really put off by the hardest are not even a thing in the fandom zeitgeist anymore.

But like man. IDK. The things I want to do with this story and the things people are doing with this story are just... really divergent. This has always been a franchise where I like the worldbuilding more than I like the characters, and then I will have like the one or two characters that I absolutely 100% am completely bananas about and they never get written in ways that I would enjoy reading.

[posi-pan]

my identity is hated by so many bc of aphobia, queerphobia transphobia, homophobia etc.

(in case youre curious i identify as a pan lesbian oriented aroace semi binary tran woman/transfemme/nothing or if im feeling nasty/vibes right heartless soulless sexless asexi faerie (and many other reclaimed slurs) +my username suffices.)

anyways aside from that im not sure if youve explicitly said yes or no to this but do you think "pannie" is a slur? (its fine if you dont have an exact answer im just curious.)

hi again! so when it comes to pannie being a slur or not, i don't really have an opinion on it tbh. and i'm cool with however others want to categorize it in good faith. i will say though that i find it utterly ridiculous that some people (*cough* panphobes *cough*) get mad or mocking when people do call it a slur. like, if people use a word as a slur, use it in place of a neutral word solely to express hatred/contempt/ill will/violence/etc. about a group of marginalized people, it's probably gonna get called a slur, ya know? so i get why people call it a slur and i get why non-panphobes might not think of it with the severity that tends to come to mind with the word slur, i just don't have a personal stance on it one way or the other.