#tma/tme discourse

[txttletale]

Obligatory "in good faith" premise.

I've seen an argument against tme/tma that focuses on the fact that there's no similar terms for other types of oppression (as in, no terms like "racism affected/exempt"), and how tme/tma aren't good terms because they imply there's people who can't be affected at all by transmisogyny, regardless of whether it would be "misdirected" or not (which I do think it would be, although a lot of people against tme/tma would disagree).

Since tma/tme functionally ends up meaning just "transfem" and "not transfem" (or at least that's how ive seen it used and advocated for), do you think there's something to the idea that we could just say that instead when discussing transmisogyny? Or is there something about these specific terms that adds to the conversation?

I mean, I guess it would be awkward to put "not transfem" in your bio maybe

i mean like. there are those terms, though, those terms dfo exist, they're jsut called 'poc' and 'white'. liike the construction of 'whiteness' is such that it basically literally means 'racism exempt' within the context of white supremacy (which is ofc the context in which most discussion of racism takes place).

i feel like people are really getting caught up on like, 'exempt' and 'affected' as like, total absolutes 100% of the time and bringing up edge cases as though this absolutely refutes them when i think that's not a particularly useful thing to do for what are fundamentally abstractions for discussing a particular set of nuanced and diverse relations to transmisogyny! like obviously every single person has a unique and specific relationship to transmisogyny, but that doesn't make the terms useless an ymore than 'gay' or 'trans' are useless because people have complicated sexuality or gender situations.

& i think that if we started saying 'transfem / not transfem' then all the exact same edge cases and arguments would just start shifting onto the definition of the word 'transfem'. which i don't think is synonymous with TMA. i think that e.g. arguing that drag queens who regularly have their lives threatened by nazi militiamen with guns are not Transmisogyny Affected is kind of sillygoofy, right, but a lot of them don't identify as transfem! & i think moreover that saying 'trans women' and 'non trans women' kind of is the exact same maneuver as people who say 'don't say cis' because like the implicit content of using those constructions is that there are 'default' people who need no descritpor and then there are 'transfems', right?

+ i think TME/TMA are valuable because they articulate exactly what's relevant about the distinction, which is a relationship to transmisogyny. like a trans guy isnt 'TME' because he's a trans guy, but because if he gets into an argument with me he can pull out the classic 'aggressive' 'scary' 'creepy' 'predatory' 'sexual deviant' cards and try to have me socially murdered and have people side with him by default, something he shares with a cis guy and a cis girl in the exact same situaiton. because of the Trans Misogyny that i am Affected by and he is Exempt From and that therefore can be weaopnized against me in any interaction.

[tqila-sunset]

Applying the label "cisgender" to someone else is not comparable to applying the labels "TMA/TME" to others because one is simply a label for an aspect of neutral identity, and the other serves only to divide people by "how oppressed" they are. Hope this helps!

they are in fact both simply labels for a neutral aspect of identity that are relevant to the way different people experience oppression.

[obscurebookreference]

Ok so I don't expect this to go beyond me just screaming into the void, but something about the tme/tma discourse rubs me the wrong way.

Some tme folks argue that they also experience misogyny and transphobia so everyone is tma actually, and like it just makes me feel kinda sad and mad. Like transmisogny isn't just a combination of misogyny and transphobia, it's a unique form of oppression transfems face for presenting as women and being trans.

And like when for example some transmascs claim it it just feels like they're claiming to know what our oppression feels like which I just dislike. Just cause you've taken bullets meant for us doesn't mean you know what it's like to get shot constantly.

And obviously tme/tma isn't the best system because of all the people that don't really fit neatly into either of those categories, but it just feels weird to have people talk about experiencing transandrophobia and transmisogny yet we only experience transmisogny, and idk like they're claiming to be more oppressed when they're clearly not (idk I don't want to get into oppression Olympics I just feel really depressed about the state of the world and wanted to get this off my chest)

[crowthingwings]

I think I count as trans fem but gender is fucky. I def lean much more to the fem side than the masc side, something I realized when a former friend pointed it out last year. But I am def not a girl/woman. But like this is also why tma/tme bothers me a little, the line feels too blurry for non-binary people like me. While those labels aren’t perfect, I DO get why they exist. So please don’t try to explain them to me. I just have complicated feelings about them.

[maria6136]

I never feel more alienated from the trans community in general and other transfems in particular than when I see people going after "TMEs" and "transandrophobia truthers" and so on, ostensibly in the name of defending people like me. Or derailing their own perfectly decent points about transmisogyny by including some irrelevant, gratuitous dig at transmascs (or intersex people or "theyFABs" or whoever the target of the day is).

What the fuck are you doing? Do you get some kind of rush from deflecting TERFisms onto targets you've decided are more deserving or privileged than yourselves? What are you trying to achieve? If you want to do some weird 70s separatism tribute act then please just go your own way already and leave everyone else alone.

As a transfem who is not a woman and doesn't pass as one I don't trust "TMA/TME" proponents to have my back in any case. And I'm much more wary of engaging with trans spaces than I used to be because of this bullshit.

I'm so sorry to everyone who has been fucked over by this tendency. I hope we can get over it. Can we please collectively at least try to get a grip and maybe rethink how we're doing things a little bit? Because unless the goal really is self-cannibalization it's not working is it?

[renthony]

It's real fucked up how many queer people dread Pride season due to both systemic queerphobia and queer infighting. Pride season always rockets up my anxiety, and I know I'm not the only one.

This shit sucks, y'all. We gotta support each other more than the queerphobes hate us. I'm not saying we have to love each other, I'm not saying we even have to like each other, but we cannot keep subdividing communities, circulating callouts, and dogpiling each other over who has it worse. That shit will kill us all.

We cannot keep thinking of our individual experiences with bigotry as, "I know [xyz kind of queer] has it worse, but...", and we cannot keep looking at other experiences with bigotry as, "that's bad, but [abc kind of queer] still has it worse," when the reality is that we are all being targeted. It's all bad! It all deserves to be talked about and fought against without trying to put it in some kind of hierarchy! Hierarchies are not fucking helpful here!

Some fucking unity, please.

[obscurebookreference]

I rlly like this post tbh, a lot of the shitty feelings I get from tma/tme discourse is when some transmascs talk over transfems in discussions about transmisogny. Like this is our oppression, I'm sorry if you've caught some strays meant for us but that doesn't mean you have the same level of understanding we do.

RE transandrophobia, the term is def kinda eh but the experiences it describes are rlly sad. I'm sorry a lot of you guys can't find community in spaces that should be safe for you, that's really depressing and something I wish we addressed more

ngl i think half of the infighting between transmisogyny and transandrophobia is just….the name “transandrophobia”. Having a word like that invokes a feeling of systemic misandry and male oppression. But the patriarchy benefits men and women are the ones who get most of the fallback from that, therefore a term like that MUST be bullshit.

Transmisogyny is about the intersection of transphobia and misogyny but, transandrophobia is just about trans mens unique experiences. Its less systemic than transmisogyny. A lot of the discourse ive seen is a misunderstanding that transandrophobia is about systemic misandry and not trans mascs being infantilized, talked down too, fetishized, and denied medical care in TERF spaces. While also experiencing hatred in queer spaces.

Trans femmes are seen as evil beings seducing children by not just TERFS, but also by the general public. This has created a truly hard existence for them. Trans mascs, on the other hand, are seen as poor sweet summer children who cannot be allowed autonomy. We are hopeless victims who cannot speak for ourselves. Cannot advocate. Cannot have a voice. This idea has, sadly, bleed into trans spaces. Even in trans spaces, transmascs are seen as small UwU cinnamon roll children who cannot talk about our personal experiences with the OTHER trans people. We need to sit at the little kids table playing with legos and lifting weights, while we are talked over.

Thats why transandrophobia, the parts that are about misandry, focus on it being within the queer community and not within society as a whole. Many queer people hate men for being, well, men. And they take this out on the transmascs who DARED betray them with masculinity. Transmascs loose support when they transition. We go from UwU little baby soft boys named Arlo, to a big scary man who will destroy the community at the first chance he gets. For transmascs, there is no in between. We lack spaces and support from our fellow trans people because their trauma views masculinity as dangerous.

In the queer community, femininity is a celebration of self expression. Its seen as a celebration in almost every queer group. Camp, glitter, dresses, makeup. Breaking gender roles is what is not just celebrated, but expected. To be a binary transmasc in the queer community is seen as doing queerness “wrong”. Trans men are pressured to be feminine and, if we arnt, we are seen as dangerous and less queer than our trans femme counterparts.

Transandrophobia is a disleading term for many because it isn’t something “akin” to the systemic oppression of transfemms; its the infantilization we experience from TERFs mixed with the dislike and distrust from other queer people. If anything, its more about our experiences in trans/queer spaces. It definitely shouldnt take away from the experiences and harassment of transfemmes, who definitely have it worse outside of the community. But i also think its not fair for people to immediately go “WELL, thats not real because misandry isnt real”, when we actively experience misandry in our own community. We both have different experiences about different lives and those two things can exist together. In a perfect world we would advicate for both transmisogyny and transandrophobia.

[maive-the-sheep]

Tme this, tma that.

I'm intersex and i want you to stop being transphobic (yes, using these terms seriously is transphobic, even if you are trans) and intersexist

And stop saying someone talking about issues they are facing shouldnt happen cause you are facing issues. We are all in this together. Or do you want the bigots to win?

[xoxo-ren-xoxo]

Trans posts then: what's in my pants? Erm my phone XD !! This is an anon blog, my gender is none of your business!

Trans posts now: if you don't disclose whether you are tma or tme within the next three seconds I'm legally allowed to call you a nazi mens rights activist to all of my friends. Give me a detailed explanation of what your genitals look like and why so I can decide if you should have a voice in this conversation.

[anti-terf-posts]

i’m really curious as to what “tme/tma” users get out of using those terms. do they feel like they won some kind of oppression competition when they declare themselves as tma? do they feel like cis people like them more? and what is the PURPOSE of using those terms? like genuinely when is it useful outside of discourse? i’m really curious.

[briarpatch-kids]

I wish more people understood you can't "opt out" of experiencing misogyny by being trans. Trans men still have to access sex based care, still get systematic sex based oppression, and still deal with day to day microaggressions. Anyone deemed "failed" at manhood deals with misogyny in some form. We can't just "opt out" like people seem to think we can.

[howlingmoonn]

Why is this person all over my dash 😭

The commenter is so right, tme/tma is some bullshit binary that ignores the fact that many people who ARE NOT trans women can and do experience transmisogyny (even if wrongly aimed).

I would go on a huge rant about it but i dont think i could articulate it well so if someone who has the ability and energy could reblog with why commenter is right and op is wrong thatd be splendid (i have the thoughts just cant write em well)

Note: i dont agree with the second comment, this is about the first. Saying the future has zero gender is an odd take, but the first part of commenters take was good and agreeable imo.

[anqueerism]

Is it just me or does “TMA/TME” give off the same rancid vibes as “NWLNW/NMLNM.” Do you understand what I mean. Is this anything

[doodlepede]

so that means we won the war. the ancient war between tumblr and 4chan is over. and we won. we literally won the culture war

[necromanceyourgays]

I understand that “TERF” is historically used just for radfem descrimination against transwomen but I believe it should not be used a synonym for transmisogynist. I really think it’s important to include other trans indentites in that ‘T’, as transmisogyny can hit others just as hard. This is also a bit of a critism of TME/TMA labels.

A good example is how a lot of TERFs often campaign against healthcare for ALL trans people, even if it isn’t gender affirming.

As we know, a big part of radical feminism and TERF retoric is that women need to be protected, that they’re weak and fragile and “wombyns bodies are precious so we MUST protect them!” So, since the government recently passed have said the quiet part out loud, we know they don’t want us to have top surgery to prevent us from breastfeeding. JKR has openly supported this on Twitter.

TERFs shoot a bullet at one person and it hits everyone in the room in the process. As much as they preach about protecting transmen from “ruining their bodies” they actively prevent transmen from getting care in “Womens Spaces”, such as OBGYNs. A lot of this is because they want to bar men— what they consider transwomen to be- from all womens spaces since they see them as a fetish.

This hits transmen, intersex folk, and everyone inbetween. “Well if you have a penis you don’t need to go to a gyno” ignores people with both! This includes not only intersex people but folks of any identity that had bottom surgeries such as penile preservation vaginoplasty or no vaginectomy phalloplasty.

I’m saying my quiet part out loud here but if you are a radfem who supports trans women but calls transmen “poor manipulated girls” I’m calling you a terf. If youre a radfem and deny that transmen experience misogyny or say that theyre uneffected by trans misogyny I’m calling you a terf. You are excluding trans identites from your radical feminism, and that is TERFism.

TL:DR: When trying to ban transwomen, people with M gender markers, and people with penises from getting care seen as strictly for women you are actively killing people who need that healthcare. We are a community and we’re all getting fucked in the end

(sorry for the coke rant)

edit: i was not aware that taking the space from “trans man/woman” and turning it to “transman/woman” was transphobic when i wrote this! I apologize!

[penumbralwoods]

lays down and stares at the ceiling. really wish it was as easy for me to ignore casual exorsexism as it seems to be for so many of you