#comic written by a white person who loves being racist

[thottybrucewayne]

Hi, new follower who asked about Talia a few days ago here. I don't know if you want to talk about dc, so feel free to ignore this. But can I say just how blatantly racist it is that Damian being trained at all, even in the runs where he isn't abused/tortured, is so bad from the Al Ghul's, but Batman does the same shit.

Bruce took in a traumatized child and taught him how to fight, then had him fighting grown ass adults and murderers and the literal Joker. They're regularly shot at as Robins by people who fully intend to kill them, but the Al Ghuls are the ones going too far.

I definitely think you're onto something here. Like, Damian being trained at such a young age is out of character for Talia IMO. The Talia who lied to Bruce about miscarrying to stop him from putting his life on the line to protect her and the baby, then sent that baby to a safe place to protect him is not the same Talia who had Damian trained to fight at like 6. (racist ass character assassination and its consequences) and him being trained to fight at such a young age is meant to show us the "brutality of the Al Ghuls" in contrast to Robin training which is "safer" because...reasons, there a lot to unpack there that I feel like certain writers and editors would rather not address... Like on the very surface level we know the answer is "These are Batman books, Robin is a popular Batman character, we're meant to suspend our disbelief because it's comics and kid superheroes are fun for kids to read." But on a "These comics are written, drawn, colored, and edited by very real people with clear racist/xenophobic tendencies" level, I feel like there was an unconscious push to write these very...white man's burden-esque comparisons between the Al Ghuls and Bruce to show Bruce in a better light because, in any other context, Bruce would be the bad guy. Just thinking of the way earlier comics paint Damian's behavior as "feral" and "bloodthirsty" even when he and Tim were shown to be pretty much going back and forth with bullying each other in a way I would describe as an extreme depiction of sibling rivalry, there was always this unspoken feeling of "Damian is a wild child because he was raised by his backward, wrongminded mother and grandfather" which we don't get with Tim. After all, Tim is white so none of his behavior carries the same weight (which is why I think the fandom defaulted to painting Tim as some sort of poor wilting flower who can't defend himself against a 10-year-old even though we literally saw him going tit for tat with said 10 year old, just petty as he wanna be but I digress) TLDL; While I personally love Robin as a concept and like Damian as a character, until the very weird and racist double standard that exists in how his time with his mother is depicted and the time with his father is depicted is addressed (I don't mean in that weak ass Damian tells his parents they're equally fucked up way either because to me that feels like a cop-out that doesn't fully address why people have an issue with Damian's upbringing and how it paints Talia), Damian's time as Robin will always make me feel some type of way. Idk if any of that made sense, I'm still really tired. Thanks for the question tho <3

[official-saul-goodman]

The only thing I disagree with is the implication that Bechdels transphobia to trans men is not as serious, because it is. But in this case she has also done a lot of important activism in other areas which is why she's a legend in the lgbt community, and the flaws in her work and her personal politics cannot be overlooked. And in comparison to Andrew Hussie, her work is obviously more significant. Obviously. Andrew Hussie has always been an OPEN racist bigot who wrote the n word into their comics and just cause a bunch of white lgbt ppl found solace in a comic made by a blatant bigot who encouraged children to say racist, ableist, transphobic, misogynistic slurs doesn't make homestuck in any way comparable to Bechdel's comic.

You don't get to point the flaws out in the work of a lesbian historical figure just so you can get people to ignore the work of done edgy cunt who hasn't done a minute of actual lgbt activism in their life. If we're holding everyone accountable we will hold anyone accountable, get a grip.

[leikeliscomet]

“But We Love Martha Jones!” - The Doctor Who Fandom’s Selective Memory of Racism

Be aware that this article contains explicit examples of anti-black racism and misogynoir.

Chapter 2 - Utopia-ish

The constant nitpicking of Martha Jones for reasons white female companions could get away with was blatant anti-black racism. Let’s get that bit clear first and foremost. As a Black person in fandom, watching Black characters get torn apart while never being given the grace of their non-Black castmates is an experience that’s too common. Microaggressions are more subtle so the easiest way to shut down any mentions of racism is to accuse Black fans of making things up or telling us “Well it’s not like REAL racism”. Luckily Doctor Who Tumblr birthed the Martha Jones affirmative action and Aunt Jemima “memes” so I can cross both covert and overt racism off the list. As mentioned in extensive detail in the previous chapter, plus the various Martha Jones articles written before me, the treatment Martha experienced was racist. I don’t care if you personally didn’t like her. I don’t care that you missed Rose. I don’t care that Ten is your smol bean. Martha’s treatment was racist. Freema Agyeman’s treatment was racist. It might not have been everyone. It might not have been you personally. But it was there. The fandom can never be a safe space for POC, specifically Black people if this elephant in the room can’t be addressed over a decade after it arrived.

On paper, you’d assume Martha’s rep was good because “at least she wasn’t a Black stereotype”. Some fans praised her for having a present father, not speaking MLE and not being from the ends. This goes into respectability politics but the fandom’s weirdness about Black Brits and class is not the point of this article. The point is the revisionist history of how Martha was really treated and to do that it helps to know what Black tropes are. The Mammy trope is a Black woman whose main purpose is to serve her white counterparts and during slavery, she mainly cared for the slave owners' children. She is usually fat, dark skin and asexual, not as a representation of those things but as a statement of how if she isn’t used for sexual exploitation like the Jezebel (the promiscuous, reckless, sexualised Black woman), she has no sexual value at all. Her value is serving the needs of others only. Martha doesn’t fit this trope in theory but in practice, she fulfils the sub-categories of this trope both in show and fandom: the disposable Black (girl)friend trope. She is used as Ten’s emotional punching bag before he’s ready for Donna and then Rose again. She had to endure edgy moody S3 Ten so no one else had to. She’s the excuse people use to deflect any critical analysis of how race was handled in RTD1. She’s the fandom’s excuse to deflect from their own racial biases. Racism? No way! Everybody loves Martha Jones! What do you mean?

Some parts of the fandom have tried to mend things by suggesting Martha be paired with other doctors or romantically shipping her with other characters a bit better than Mickey Smith. But does this hold up? As much as I’m a big fan NineMartha as a concept and as someone who honestly saw one-off characters like Riley Vashtee from 42 or Tallulah from Daleks in Manhattan having way more romantic chemistry with Martha than Mickey ever did, simply re-shipping Martha isn’t enough. Doctor Who’s racism isn't exclusive to one doctor, one series or one era and new Martha pairings suggest the issue was “right person, wrong doctor” instead of what the issue actually was: racism. Moffat and Chibnall’s eras weren’t full of golden Black representation either so I doubt the Martha issue would’ve magically disappeared under those two. From Nine’s hostility to Mickey, to Twelve’s hostility to Danny Pink to Thirteen handing a South Asian Spymaster to the Nazis and Eleven only travelling with POC in comics most fans haven’t heard of and being besties with Churchill, simply putting Martha with another Doctor isn’t the serve fans think it is. Even RoseMartha seems like putting a bandaid on a bullet hole. If it's not enough for Martha to be compared to Rose, put down in favour of Rose, told she isn’t Rose and told she's worse than Rose in fandom and in show over and over and over, she has to be shipped with Rose too. Martha’s a great character… as long as you can tie her to Rose… again. Even in my own article I have to talk about Rose because Rose is centred in what was supposed to be Martha’s story. A doctor-to-be Black girl from London with a hectic family meets a Time Lord and gets abducted by space rhino police at work in one day. Her main conflict isn’t balancing work and time traveller life, or fighting to get her family back together, or seeing what’s out there in the universe - it's that she isn’t “Rose” enough. The Mammy and her sons’ main thing in common is simple; how well they serve and centre the white characters. In attempts to mend Martha’s treatment she is still only valued in relation to white characters. She should’ve been with Eleven because he would’ve fucked a Black woman. Or maybe Dilfy Twelve. Or a sapphic romance with another female companion who she saw twice or doesn’t actually know. Or maybe Ten in an alternate universe where he supports #nubianqueens. None of this is done to explore sexuality or romance with Black women and is definitely not to centre Black lesbianism and bisexuality. It’s Mammy with a dash of Jezebel. It's adding romantic and sexual value on top of physical and emotional value like a crappy meal deal.

I’m tired of Black women being treated as extensions of white women both in media and in real life. I’m tired of our value being determined by how well we serve white people emotionally, physically, platonically and sexually. And I'm even more tired of white feminism especially in this fandom. It would be so easy to label this article as anti-Rose, anti-Ten or anti-Tenrose to invalidate my whole racial analysis because it's the easy way out. I’ll admit I like both characters individually but not the ship but this isn’t something I decided on since birth - it's my conclusion as a Black fan in a predominantly white fandom, watching a predominantly white show, watching the first companion of my race be told she isn’t good enough compared to the white characters, and that the hatred of her is justified for the greater good of its popular white ship. Black fans can never have this conversation without being told we’re “pitting women against each other” and that Martha and Rose hugged once in S4 so everything's hunky dory. Martha’s happy that Ten found Rose again so what’s the problem? It sends a clear message that Black women’s pain will never matter a much as white women’s feelings. “Rose is amazing! Martha’s amazing! Stop pitting women against women!” but who was pit against who in the first place? These faux girl power posts fail to acknowledge the overlap of race and gender which separates the treatment of Black and white women. It fails to acknowledge Martha’s hate was rooted in anti-black racism. It fails to acknowledge the anti-Rose pushback was in response to how the show and fandom convinced us Rose was the untouchable bar this Black woman failed to meet. It fails to acknowledge Freema Agyeman the actress was targeted not just her character. It fails because the female empowerment rhetoric that leaves the Black ones at the bottom of the pile only “empowers” women of a certain demographic.

The harassment Martha experienced was swept under the rug of “stan wars” but it was so much deeper than that. I’m not saying Martha stans are angels but there was no “Great Stan War” because the sides were never even. At the end of the day no amount of “Martha’s better than Rose” tweets will ever compare to the fact that Martha hate was rooted in misogynoir. Rose was and still is considered the greatest companion of nuwho, whilst Martha is constantly erased and undervalued. Rose’s video views and hashtags have always been bigger than Martha’s. Amy and Clara came after Martha but still surpassed her in popularity and got plenty of fan edits of “The Girl Who Waited” and “The Impossible Girl” whilst Martha was conveniently skipped in the companion lineup. The fandom’s bias still shines clearly in favour of Rose over Martha. Rose’s jealousy towards other women is justifiable and just the ups and downs of a 19-year-old whilst Martha’s is entitled bitterness. Rose’s flaws are compelling character moments and depth, Martha’s are “holding her back from being a good companion”. Hell, even Donna calling out Ten’s BS was entertaining accountability whilst Martha was just the angry Black woman. Fans will weaponise Rose’s working-class roots to imply a pro-Martha bias, failing to acknowledge the working-class to poor background of the average Black Brit, the anti-blackness middle-class Black people are not spared from, the many working-class Black characters of the show like Mickey, Bill, Rigsy and Ryan or how most fans don’t consider Martha middle class because she doesn’t fit the white British cultural stereotypes. You can't be the most loved and hated at the same time. The hard truth is Billie Piper wasn’t racially abused by Martha stans but Freema was absolutely racially abused by Rose’s and the effects of this are still around. Go into Martha Jones tags today and you’ll see snarky posts of how Ten could never love another companion like Rose. Even when Freema bravely shared her experiences of literal racism, fans were quick to yell “But I wanted Ten and Rose though” as a justification for years of misogynoir. Again, we need to address the elephant in the room instead of covering our eyes and ears to act like it’s not there. A Black character and actress was collateral damage in order for a popular white ship to rise and whilst I’m not an anti, I as a Black Doctor Who fan, I’ll never be a supporter. At the end of the day, only one of these actresses is still carrying the burden of misogynoir over 10 years since RTD1 ended. A lonely walk across the Earth yet again.

<- Chapter 1 Chapter 3 ->

[waspredteeth]

I see a lot of confusion on why calling Damian Wayne "feral" is racist/problematic, so here's a rundown.

There's a difference between calling your child or your younger sibling "feral" and calling a character like Damian "feral." You know your child/sibling/niece/nephew etc. They're real people, and unless they have a problem with it personally, then there's nothing wrong with calling them feral as a joke. It doesn't (shouldn't) affect their perceptions by other people. It doesn't become a label that follows them.

Damian al Ghul-Wayne is a fictional character. A canonically mixed Arab/Chinese/Jewish White character with a history connected to some of the most prominent Arab comic book characters, who themselves also get insanely mischaracterized.

He's constantly whitewashed. He's been written with racist undertones (the suicide bomber vest). He's had his character development and progress backtracked time and time again by DC. DC treats him weirdly most days and completely shitty in the worst stories.

A good majority of fanon hasn't done any better than DC. You cannot pat yourselves on the back for being more inclusive or mental health aware than DC when you call a mixed Arab/Chinese boy "feral". It's constant. You can come up with various titles and nuances for every Bat-character, for every Robin.

Tim can be smart, a skater, a genius, the one holding everyone together, the little brother, the one who needs love. Jason can be cool, morally "right" or "wrong", unstable, PTSD-stricken, the one who was betrayed, the one with Shakespearean tragedies. Dick can be fun, happy, the first one, the prodigal son, the one with complicated history and the big brother.

You give them room for exploration. Love and care and attention and research. Many headcanons. You either comply with canon or you don't, but there's substance to their character.

What does Damian get? He's feral. He's rabid. He's a gremlin. He can't be reasoned with. He has no self-control, he's impulsive. He's hurt others, and you can't forgive it. Sometimes he's homophobic. Or classist. Or plain mean and rude to your favorite boy. He's always carrying a sword. A psychopath with no regard for another's well-being (usually Tim in a lot of fics). He can't be taught what's right.

I've seen people cry that Damian needs to punished or kicked out or treated the same way he's treated others. He needs to be brutalized or talked down to. He can never grow as a person, because he's mean to Tim or Jason, and you need him to exist as the abuser. His first move is always violent.

Fanon compares him to an animal often; he bites, claws, hisses, growls. Bruce or Dick or Jason or Tim have to wrangle him, tame him, civilize him the white man's way in lieu of his brown mother and grandfather who "clearly" raised him wrong. You don't see the issue with that? The issue with always labeling one of the few major brown characters in Batman comics as the unreasonable animal? That the child of color is always the abuser, the instigator, to older characters?

And even if you don't see him this way, you don't write him this way - then are you giving him the care and attention you give for other Bat characters?

Do you know anything else about him other than his "anger"? Because he isn't always angry. In fact, he's typically well-mannered. Quiet even, when he's not being provoked. DC's writing will always vary but whenever Damian lashes out, he's usually written with a reason to act the way he does.

Are you making him intelligent like he should be? A hard believer in redemption? A neglected and abused child who isn't meek or crying or closes himself within? Are you willing to explore that he's always exhibited the "wrong" kind of trauma responses - lashing out, being snippy, ruining relationships, refusing to admit weakness?

Do you write anything about him without making his mother and grandfather comically abusive and violent? Will you give him the supporting cast/friends he actually has? Can you write his dad/siblings interacting with him without making them white saviors or therapy pets? Can you write him without a ship or his love for animals or being vegetarian overshadowing everything?

Is he a character to you at all other than a glorified plot device with a sharp tongue and the convenience of being violent?

[imperiuswrecked]

What is the difference between fanon Namor and well written, in character Namor?

Fanon!Namor - misogynistic, alpha male, Chad, will fuck anyone and not care about them aka womanizer, racist, arrogant asshole to the point of him being super cruel for laughs, straight white male self insert fantasy, rapist.

Canon!Namor - noble, confident, respects women, has both good and bad sides; can be soft and emotional, can be hard and closed off emotionally. Arrogant as fuck but backs up his arrogance with his character, like yes he knows he is the best so you peasants should fawn at his feet, has a kind heart, is cold/cruel to those who have harmed those under his protection/are not worthy of his respect, hates bullies and nazis, flirty and charming, loyal, honest to the point he doesn't sugar coat his thoughts, deeply lonely and tragic.

A lot of people think Namor is this weird creepy incel who sexually assaults women and treats them like trash, and makes other men look like Betas, when he isn't and has actually only been in three long term romances and each time they ended (with their deaths) it hurt him alot.

Or people think he is racist because he drowned Wakanda when he was possessed by the Phoenix Force.

Or people think he's a bad character because they personally don't like his character traits: Does Namor have character flaws? Yeah, alot of them, he's headstrong, one of the most arrogant characters you will ever meet, he isn't shy about killing people he deems necessary to kill so you won't find him conflicted about murder, he is not a humble character even if he does have moments of being humble. People who don't read his comics by writers who get his character won't see the moments he lets down the salty crusty shield around his heart and shows his softer side, he deeply cares for his people, he cares about the oceans, and wild creatures/animals. He likes animals more than he likes people. Namor has severe emotional trauma, canon ptsd, and suffers from bouts of depression. He suffered bullying and abuse as child for being half human/atlantean. He was canonically raped by his wife's murderess. Yet no matter what happens he still puts the lives of the people he has under his protection before his own, he'll use his own body as a shield for those who need it, and he never gives up.

People will read Namor written by writers who don't know his backstory or character beats and never read a comic where he plucks a baby flamingo out of polluted water and looks on in horror at the devastation humans have done to nature, or carries dying atlantean children in arms, or vows to watch over his friends grave, or stands up for his friend others deem is a monster and want to send them into space because Namor knows what its like for others to treat him like a monster, or they don't see his fun impish side, or a bunch of other little moments that make up who he is. They don't see that a lot of the times when Namor is angry at the surface world he has legitimate reasons to be upset and isn't just some crazy sea king.

All they see is a cold cruel sneering king who wants to fuck a married woman and drown wakanda.

I usually judge how writers write Namor by how they have him treat women, because Namor is one of those characters who was raised by a single mother, he connects with women more than with men characters, alot of his supporting cast had a lot of dynamic women. Fans who get upset that Namor was mean to their faves are weak. Namor isn't going to like or get along with any men characters who hasn't proven themselves to him meanwhile he is generally more trusting of women.

Namor isn't an easy character, and not everyone vibes with a character like him. I do, and I deeply love Namor's character.

A lot of Fanon!Namor is a result of people not reading his comics and seeing what a complex and interesting character he is so they reduce him to one or two traits. Marvel Writers are not exempt to their Fanon!Namor writing, because there are writers who do the character really well in a way that lines up with the general 80 years of characterization and others who just want to use him for their plots and not care about his character.

It's frustrating as a fan to see this constant trashing of his character from fans, and from Marvel, but I honestly feel sorry for people who don't get to see what a morally complex and interesting character Namor is.

[semper-legens]

27. Thank You, Jeeves, by P.G. Wodehouse

Owned: No, library Page count: 263 My summary: Thanks to his insistence on playing the banjolele, Bertie Wooster has been 1) kicked out of his flat and 2) dumped by Jeeves. But not to worry. He's out into the country, where nothing can go wrong! Except maybe love triangles, wacky escapades, imprisonment on a yacht, forced marriages, and a distinct lack of butter. Just his lucky day. My rating: 3/5 My commentary:

You know, despite my usual tastes in literature and my general predilection for the stuffy English gentleman, I've never actually engaged with any Jeeves and Wooster. I've seen clips from the Steven Fry/Hugh Laurie show, as every English person is legally required to, but I've never actually sat down to read any Wodehouse myself. Well, one of my coworkers is currently working her way through Jeeves and Wooster, and decided that I'd like it too. So, on her recommendation, I've gone in blind with this book. Let's see what it's like!

First off - Wodehouse's voice is delightful. Archaic without being impenetrable, sardonic and drawling, punning and witty in all the right ways. I was charmed and captivated from the start, not less because of how full-on it is right out of the gate. It's a very droll writing style, the kind that was definitely a spawn of the 30s; I can't imagine someone writing like that now except to satirise. Still, it's wonderfully charming. And Wooster himself is well-characterised as a complete brainless twit. He actually had a lot more heart than I was expecting from what I knew of his character, but he's still a big idiot who doesn't ever help himself out of any situation at all.

Also, like, I know calling Jeeves and Wooster gay isn't exactly the hottest of takes, but it surprised me just how gay it was. Seriously, Jeeves says that he's got a policy of never working for a married man. I can't be the only one reading implication into that. And he's always at Wooster's beck and call, even in this book where he's not technically working for him. (More on that in a bit.) And Wooster is not all that put out that the eligible young lady who is also his ex in this book isn't into him. In fact, he goes out of his way to avoid getting into a relationship with her! Any tension between them is coincidence and awkward encounters. Just…so gay.

Unfortunately with literature written in the early 1900s, and particularly literature by white people, you're gonna get some racism. In this book, it takes the form of the banjolele and the blackface. The former is the inciting incident for the novel; Wooster has to move to the country because he has taken up playing the banjolele, a cross between a banjo and a ukulele. Everyone hates the noise, but it's the instrument itself that's brought up as being the problem. Jeeves, in particular, hates it. The racial connotations of this can't be ignored - the banjo is associated with black Americans, where obviously the ukulele is a native Hawaiian instrument. But more egregiously, Wooster spends half the novel 'comically' in blackface. There is a never-seen troupe of minstrels referred to with the n-word - whether they are actually black or white people in blackface is unclear from the text, but apparently that was the contemporary term for blackface performers. And every person who sees Wooster in blackface assumes he's a devil and screams and runs away, again 'comically'. Look, I know this was written in 1934, but honestly I don't care. This is just straight-up racist. The idea of Wooster being blacked up is treated as hilarious rather than insulting, and of course not a single actual person of colour shows up at all. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth, the casualness of these stereotypes and this behaviour. It's just bad. (And apparently, the TV episode based on this book also had the blackface in 1991. Plus ca change…)

Next, we're off to the Arctic, where there's a haunting on a beached ship…

[mermaidsirennikita]

Yeah this needs to be talked about more, the amount of articles, podcasts, youtube/tiktok videos or just online comments that I saw after season 1 came out that just assume the Bton books were diverse because the show is? And the fact the new marketing push around the books is not disabusing people about that notion, mainly through the new covers (both regular and the show tie-in ones).

It's a really complicated, thorny issue in some ways and very simple in others. If I look at Just Romance Novels (which is obviously a niche, just zeroing in a genre for the sake of discussion) the genre is still dominated by product from white authors, largely with characters written as white. While it's diversifying (far more slowly than it should be) a lot of the older "proven success" books are written by white people, about white people. I don't think it's wrong to cast diversely if you're adapting those books--and on a practical, "people putting food on the table" level, I want actors of color to have as many solid, well-paying opportunities as possible.

At the same time, there are still so many authors of color neglected. Not all of whom wrote people of color on the page, of course, especially in historical romance--Sherry Thomas and Stacy Reid are two historical romance novelists who write about white characters, and it's no surprise that the potential adaptation of Stacy's works would be cast more diversely. There's a level of tracking how expectations have changed when you look at how Sinful Wallflowers was presented as a book series, and how it could be presented as a show.

And like, I'll allow that we're in the midst of a sort of "boom" (who knows how long it'll last) of period pieces cast more diversely than they would've been even 15 years ago. The approaches are often different and individualized. The Great has people of color playing characters who'd be literal white Russians "in real life", and it's literally never commented on, which I think many would prefer for a show like Bton. BUT, most of the lead characters are white, with Orlo (who I think did not get the strongest writing from jump, though Sascha wanting to leave after s1 didn't help) and Arkady (who I think is hilarious and finally got more screentime in s3, but he could've gotten more from the beginning... so much Velementov screentime should be Arkady screentime) being two of the only truly prominent people of color onscreen.

Then you have something like Sanditon, where Georgiana gets better writing than many people on Bton, but the show obviously never knew how to really confront her background, made the racist old lady the peak comic relief, and never prioritized Georgiana the way her white counterpart Charlotte was prioritized. Georgiana got an afterthought of an ending after being humiliated by the narrative several times.

One of the shows that handled this best was Tom Jones--Sophia is treated as this gem of a girl whose grandfather and aunt love her, but clearly aren't fully sure about how to solidify her safety as a Black woman of means in England. There's a very tender scene where she discusses her father enslaving her and her mother with Tom, and the show doesn't shy away from Sophia's mixed feelings on the entire thing. There's a heavy implication re: her being made to perform whiteness with face powder, etc, but nonetheless this is not dominating Sophia's storyline. She gets to be the swooning girl who falls head over heels and is desired by a good man and upheld as his ideal in every way. She confronts conflict, but she does not SUFFER, and she is not MINIMIZED in favor of white women in the story--Sophia is really pretty explicitly like, The Woman of that piece. Presented as the most beautiful, as not flawless but good and deserving of love, as a true classical heroine whose personal narrative is actively expanded to match Tom's. The only thing I find prominently weird (after one viewing) is that she and Tom never had like, a sweet wedding night scene, as we saw Tom have sex with three different white women onscreen, of of which was like.... the core villain. I would've liked to have seen Sophia get the full physical adoration there, onscreen, and it did stand out a bit that she didn't.

So those are adaptations with growing pains, not getting everything right, but some being better than others (and Bton being the bottom of the barrel, there).

Then there are things that are unequivocally wrong, and not a part of growing pains as adaptations navigate between what sells and what diversifies and what works, and one of those unequivocally wrong things is selling the Bton books as diverse reads. Those books are some of the most conventional Regency romances out there; you don't even get a lot of economic or class diversity, let alone any racial diversity. Almost everyone in that series is upper class. Even Sophie is the daughter of a nobleman. And I'm not saying it's wrong to write about those people, but for the books to now be sold as something they're not, when the author didn't even think people of color could get HEAs in her Historically Accurate World... is the worst kind of capitalism.

That's part of the extra ugliness (on top of all the obvious ugliness) here. Julia Quinn was against what she's now profiting from. It's not just picking a white author's works to be emblematic of diversity they don't represent; it's THAT author's works. And I think that making Queen Charlotte from all this, putting Julia's name on the cover (I am.... 90% sure that book was ghostwritten, with input from Julia and Shonda, but go off) just adds to all of it.

[trickstarbrave]

i have a lot of thoughts about "problematic" media and the dumb fucking "pro-ship vs antis" discourse that are probably disjointed bc i am half awake

for one i wanna preface this with: i think it is good actually to critique problematic elements in any media. movies, games, comics, tv shows, even fanfiction. if you think me saying something is "problematic" means i think it should be outlawed and banned and i personally want you, a fan of that thing, to die and i support suicide baiting you, you are just as braindead as the people you claim to hate. you are annoying. this post is not for you and is in fact also about you. you are a tar pit.

there is a vocal minority of people who do in fact see any depiction of something bad and think it has to be condoning it. they are genuinely few and far between, but they are VERY vocal, and typically very young. but i think after looking at how these people thing and present arguments, i really understand why they think this

depiction, if you are something with any critical thinking skills, does not inherently condone or condemn its subject matter. it can condone it, yes, but it can also condemn it. typically a story is mature enough to depict certain things, it is doing so for a reason and has a lot of nuance and shows if it condemns or condones it in indirect ways. for example in a very clear cut way: slasher films show a killer murdering people. they are screaming and dont want to be killed and try to stop him or run away. it is supposed to make you, the audience, feel bad and go 'well i wouldnt wanna get killed'. but at no point does someone look at the camera and go "killing people is wrong and should not be condoned. people dont like being killed".

this gets a bit more messy in other topics that are commonly normalized or go under the radar like racism and abuse. ultimately i think many stories that are "problematic" arent really done that way on purpose, hence why i dont believe in attacking the people who made that story for these things. a lot of times these things sneak their way in subconsciously or by pure carelessness. example: i do not think all of the designers for skyrim are racist white supremacists who intentionally made this story to be a perfect recruiting and radicalization tool for white supremacists. skyrim is a story about fantasy pop culture vikings in fantasy pop-culture viking land where you kill dragons. however there are also elves, which oppose the fantasy pop culture vikings and the vikings hate, and a civil war where many of the fantasy vikings want to purge and non-pop culture fantasy viking out of magical fantasy viking land. that shit is like catnip to white surpremacists. they love that shit. ultimately skyrim is just written badly. at no point was that the INTENTION behind the game, but it has been used to radicalize a lot of white guys and also is still beloved by white supremacists for these reasons.

ultimately that example is one most people im talking about wouldnt even get though, because it requires a lot of thought, understanding of how white supremacy operates, how we even got the concept of "vikings" in our larger pop culture (it was nazis, lol) and that those concepts are wildly inaccurate, etc. instead these kinds of critiques go after very overt depictions of subject matter or literally children's media.

and i think there is a very real reason why they do this i have come to realize: not only do they not know how to critically think, actually trying to think critically even in the slightest is mentally exhausting to them. by this i don't mean "ha ha they are stupid and lazy" i mean they genuinely dont understand critical thinking. at all. like they lack media literacy entirely. ive heard dumb takes from these people like "symbolism is trying to hide/bury the themes of a story" or "because the abuse in this story is metaphorical it doesn't count". they dont understand the parts of a story and why they are utilized as literary devices and actively resent having to think about the things presented to them.

this is a larger cultural issue. i see it beyond just self aggrandizing, black and white morality faux activists. you can see it in spaces of pretty much any political view or in any community: a lack of understanding of how to break down information and stories to evaluate it. we all have a tendency towards bias and they familiar and things that make us comfortable, but these people are on a whole other level. thinks like metaphor are seen as nothing more than lies and detraction used to obscure information rather than help build information up. understanding nuance, personal flaws, deeper intentions, and how you actually convey complex information is completely beyond them.

they live, ultimately, to just drink up content and media while having to think as little as humanely possible. they crave exciting stories but with extremely simplistic meanings and those stories just don't exist. because confronting these topics means rethinking their entire world view, be they extremely insular "leftists" or right leaning morons. it means admitting maybe they are not always right and perfect in more complex ways than simple mistakes a 4 year old would make. even when people like to bitch and moan that "depicting something doesn't mean you inherently condone it" they don't give examples on how you can tell. they don't talk about how personal biases can contribute to a story condoning it when the author does not consciously believe it. unconscious biases aren't even necessarily harmful, but going unchecked they can evolve to full on bigotry, born out of a refusal to admit you can be wrong about things and things are allowed to make you uncomfortable without being a personal attack on you.

because again, this thought pattern exists to preserve the ego and to think as little as possible. admitting things have nuance means admitting EVERYTHING can have nuance. that maybe the people who hurt you are not all irredeemable monsters or that you were the villain in someone else's life. that people you love to attack for moral superiority are complex individuals with their own lives and experiences.

this thought process is ultimately AGAINST accountability too. things are bad because they are bad. there are no pieces that give it nuance, the existence of them is either morally good or morally bad. which means if you think of yourself as morally good, as we all like to, that means you can never, EVER admit to doing something "morally bad", intentionally or not. i saw it recently with mods for a community refusing to admit they did something racist (attacking a black woman and making her life miserable) and would instead rather burn the community down with them while whining about they feel "unsafe" because people said that behavior was unacceptable, wanted them to apologize to the person harmed, and put steps in place to keep it from happening again. which is basic accountability. but that requires thinking about your actions, why they happened, that it doesn't make you an irredeemable monster who can never be better ever, and accept responsibility for what you did.

it is protection of biases and your own beliefs rather than challenging them. to think critically we need to know how to break these things down, evaluate them individually, how they work in a larger whole, and why these things are being told to us. maybe people refuse because they are comfortable in their biases. maybe people are comfortable in their biases and dont like acknowledging them because they dont understand critical thinking and media analysis. maybe its both. i dont really know.

all i know is it is annoying and maybe we really need to by and large teach people literary analysis and critical thinking skills from the ground up. because i cannot keep looking at the same brain dead takes in every community about how symbolism exists to obscure and metaphors are actually lies because "why not just be literal" and watch people make the dumbest moral arguments on both sides of any debate

[spider-xan]

I liked Spider-Gwen at first, but then actually read the comics and they weren't. That Good. She is a good character in ITSV/ATSV, but idk I still feel indifferent about her. And she's been, once again, relegated to just The Love Interest by the majority of fans. Regular Gwen is Peter's love interest and Spider-Gwen is Miles' love interest. Nothing else. It wouldn't bug me if people weren't so obsessive about her, most fans are like "Gwen HAS to be there she HAS to we NEED Gwen!!!!" and it's very annoying. It especially annoyed me that people were drooling about the fact that Insomniac might (or might not) include her and make her Miles' age, so they can be together. Completely disregarding the fact that Hailey exists.

I like her design and all, but she's very meh to me, speaking as a woman myself. Beside the things I've mentioned, my biggest gripe with her that she feels like a completely different character and not a variation of Gwen Stacy. With alternate versions of Peter, while they feel slightly different, they still have the character's essence. The only thing she shares with the OG Gwen is the blonde hair and name, she might as well could've been an OC.

Yeah, this actually is p much how I feel about Spider-Gwen as well tbh! I actually do remember when she debuted and it was coming off hot from the massive spike in mainstream popularity she got after the first TASM film came out in 2012, and I think a major selling point was that her comics would explore what if Gwen lived and got spider superpowers - so I was surprised when I read the comic and aside from having blonde hair, a strong personality, and a cop father, she was basically a new character, rather than if 616!Gwen had a different life; I know a big Spider-Man fan on here wrote a really good meta post examining why Spider-Gwen fell flat for her that I don't have the link for on hand right now, but I remember it discussed the odd choice of taking away Gwen's science skills from 616 when that was a trait that set her apart back in the 1960s and would have been interesting to explore if she had spider powers.

But yeah, like, I would consider myself on the flexible side with adaptations instead of being a strict textual purist, but I agree that you do have to keep a core spirit to a character or else they may as well be a new character with a superficial resemblance, and that's what Spider-Gwen felt like to me - if she had been branded as Spider-Liz Allen or just a new Spider-Woman, I wouldn't have thought of her as actually being a Gwen with someone else's name.

And yeah, you're right that Gwen in general often gets reduced to a love interest who doesn't exist independently of Peter or Miles. (My controversial TASM opinion is that she's not really written as an independent character so much as the perfect girlfriend for nerds.) In Miles' case, it also happens in reverse where the non-Black fandom struggles to think of him as a character separate from Gwen, in stark contrast to how Peter is not treated that way by fandom unless they're hardcore shippers who only ship - and then yeah, you get misogynoir like people screaming, 'Where is Miles' girlfriend??', re: Insomniac Spider-Man 2 while posting a picture of Spider-Gwen and erasing Hailey.

Anyway, yeah, I agree she does not and should not be in everything, and it honestly bugs me when people try to point at Miles by comparison and act like she's on par with his importance when she's not - Miles was groundbreaking and still important to this day on a meta level bc he was an Afro-Latino Spider-Man who became THE Spider-Man in his universe and took Peter's place originally amidst a lot of racist backlash to that change in the (Ultimate comics) status quo, whereas Gwen is far from the first white woman Spider-Woman, nevermind the only one, like, no, she is not the Miles Morales of (white) women.

[martyrbat]

Of creature of the woods give me your wisdom. I really want to read batman comics but I have no clue where to start it's so overwhelming *dies*

omg hiii <333

super sorry for how late this is, i been busy all day !!!! im beyond honoured you thought of me to come to for Batman recs !! but i MUST give credits to my friend instead because their list is how I got into Batman comics!!

this !! is a great Batman reading list for a general use/reference! i know it can be super intimidating at first but you are SO brave and can do it! I promise it gets easier once you start getting into the swing of things! North did a great job in picking the comic issues/arcs so you can get a variety of stories and i can 1000% vouch for their recs!! (i think my personal favourite is Dark Knight, Dark City fyi!!)

another list from them :)

admittedly, I skip around in comics A LOT and just take a glance at a wiki to make sure im a starting a mini story arc in the right spot/it's just a standalone. but north's lists helped me when I was first getting into comics to make it a little less scary and i still look at it for a general use/remember my favourites! if you're just starting to read Batman comics, i cannot recommend them enough !!! :33

another friend of mine has this rec list too and some great for Batman Black and White recs too:

part 1, part 2, part 3

Matty's are great if you're looking for other adventures/different little stories and examples in how writers use the character! take a peek and see what catches your eye :)

AND a quick reminder (as always) to be mindful consuming any media but especially comics! and especially Batman related ones! Batman is a wonderful character and when written correctly, he is a symbol of unwavering compassion. BUT unfortunately the comic book world is a breeding ground for fascist, racist, and antisemitic storylines. be thoughtful in what you're reading and use your head to recognize signs of when the writer is using comics and these characters to push their disgusting propaganda.

three widely known examples are Grant Morrison, Frank Miller, and The Court of The Owls:

Morrison is one of the most known writers for modern-ish Batman. however they played a large hand in retconning Talia al Ghul's character and being a racist piece of shit so everyday i imagine their head blowing up

Frank Miller who's just a straight up fascist. He's largely praised for The Dark Knight Returns trilogy which can be avoided entirely (and should be, imo). you may have Batman: Year One get recommended which, again, i think is unnecessary (especially for just starting out). but if you're going to read it, be mindful of the writer.

(i'm unsure of how much you do or don't know – but if you want to see a short leadup to Bruce being Batman; I'd recommend The Man Who Falls (which is written by the iconic Dennis O'Neil) instead! Batman's origins has many stories and factors and this combines a lot of them into a nice, tidy story while adding a few other elements i like :))

and Scott Snyder's Court of the Owls entire arc is one of the worse cases i can think of; to where i knew of it before i ever touched a comic. Hallie did a wonderful explanation talking about it here and i recommend everyone to read it. even if you already have, refresh yourself and read it again.

If you're just getting into Batman comics i know that can seem like a lot to take in! But this is just to give a warning and reminder that comics are an artform that can and have been used as a propaganda and political piece. For better (police abolishment, his care and belief all life is precious/deserves to be saved/the belief and hope anyone can change for the better) and for the worse (racism, anti-semitism, police militarization).

I hope my friends lists helped in narrowing down where to start and you fall in love with this character too :) feel free to dm me or ask for my discord if you ever want to talk on them/have any questions!!! <3

[soleminisanction]

You seem like youre frustrated with her character the same way I get with her too.

I think see the potential of the character she could be and should be with the correct writing and stories.

I really didnt like her Batgirl run either. There are bits and parts of it I do like and concepts of things there I love but I really dont care for it.

I also wish she wasnt used as a marketing tactic during "run" as Robin. If they were actually serious about it, they wouldve written her run differently and hopefully better.

Thats also the problem with all comic book characters, they have so many different writers with different ideas of what to do with these characters. Unfortunately some of them dont like the characters they write for. I know that Dan Didio hates Steph and never wrote her well because of that. (He also hated Dick Grayson and wanted to kill him off too)

Characters like Steph really are up to interpretation how they are supposes to be personality wise. Recently i havent been liking how shes been written for certain comics (Batgirls, Wayne Family Adventures)

You and I similar to seeing a character we want to be better. I see that she has all this potential to be a great character and love her despite all the garbage writing shes had over her 30+ years of existence

The lack of good stories is a part of it, yeah.

It's also the fact that, while she's hanging around not telling any stories of her own, her ability to do so often comes at the expense of other characters. Like a few months back, they randomly shoved her into a Titans line-up when she's never been a Titan, not once in her entire career, while the actual Batgirl who joined the Titans, Betty/Bette Kane, was nowhere to be seen. And she's part of what ruined YJ 2019, getting forced in awkwardly purely because a bunch of her stans spent months harassing the creators on Twitter, spewing racist epitaphs at the new black characters and demanding that she be included in a team she wasn't solicited for and, again, had never been a part of, purely because Tim was there and they decided he wasn't allowed to have a life without her.

And speaking of that last bit, don't even get me started on the Tim Drake Pride Special again or we'll be here all day. It is genuinely offensive how many people demanded that Tim's coming out be oriented entirely around the feelings of his straight ex-girlfriend.

That's why I can't read Batgirls, either. I can't stand the way they write the relationship between Steph and Cass, it's got no teeth, and perpetually reduces Cass to Steph's "Kato," the hyper-competent Asian sidekick who does all the actual work for an inept white person. Even the issue where they tried to make a big deal out of, "Ooo, this is a special CASS CENTRIC ADVENTURE, we're doing it COMPLETELY SILENT with NO WORDS!" turned out to be all about her running around trying to find Stephanie, and then they copped out with the gimmick and made it so the only words in the book were Stephanie's, talking mostly about -- surprise! -- herself, how great she is and how much she loves being a Batgirl.

Ugh. Spirit World can't come fast enough.

Honestly, when it comes to her run as Robin, I think the story itself could've been just fine if they'd left it as it was and just, hadn't made a big freakin' marketing deal about "OoOoOooOooOoo, the GIRL WONDER, how SPECIAL!!!" They didn't do that with Carrie. Or Tris Plover. Hell, at the time a few people pointed out how silly it was for them to make such a big deal out of her being a girl when Carrie Kelly is the most well known alt-Robin period and the co-star of one of the defining texts of the age.

But, y'know, Carrie was a short-haired butch tomboy with thick glasses who fought with a sling-shot, while Steph is the single most gender-conforming Bat-femme since Betty Kane and is consistently drawn to show off her child-bearing hips so. Yeah.

The part that honestly needs fixing is War Games, which I honestly think is still something that Steph needed to happen, because it did lead her to a moment of growth that she desperately needed (even if Chuck Dixon and Bryan Miller later ruined it.) I think you could fix that story up with just a few adjustments. But, hindsight is 20/20 and all.

I do have to caution a little against attributing malice where ignorance or incompetence is more likely, though. I've never seen any evidence that Dan Didio "hated" either Steph or Dick; rather, what he saw them as was expendable. By all accounts I've ever heard, when he was editorially mandating Dick's death in Infinite Crisis, he legitimately didn't know that Dick used to be the original Robin, he just knew that Nightwing wasn't Batman or Robin and thought that made him expendable enough to kill off for shock value. It took Geoff Johns talking him out of it at literally the last minute to get him to see sense.

(Seriously, you can tell that the page was drawn off a script where Dick got full-on murdered, and the original floppy release didn't have the hilariously awkward page they inserted into the collected editions where Dr. Mid-night promises to save him. It's kinda funny in retrospect.)

Stephanie was the same way, it wasn't that he "hated" her, he just didn't care about any character introduced after the silver age and thought that killing her off would be more ~shocking~ than letting her live and learn a lesson. Didio wasn't evil, he was just bad at his job. Your standard incompetent white guy failing up.

[eviltothecore13]

I hate that people see “Marvel” and think “MCU” now instead of all the great things the comics have done over the years.

Marvel comics had Spider-Man cheering on anti-Vietnam-War protestors in the 60s and the MCU gets US military support and funding?

Tony Stark in the comics (while still unbearable in the hands of SOME writers) is canonically bi and had alcoholism handled actually seriously and not made into a joke in the original Demon In A Bottle story whereas the Iron Man films chose to portray it as him making an idiot of himself at parties lolisn’tthatfunny instead. Not to mention that the reason he was written as a weapons manufacturer initially in the comics was that Stan Lee knew his audience was mostly fairly progressive young people and was deliberately choosing the person they would hate the most, as a "can I convincingly make this guy become a hero?" challenge--and the story is meant to be about a weapons manufacturer realising the horrible consequences of his actions and deciding to stop making weapons and use technology for good instead--but the original anti-military script of the first Iron Man film got edited beyond recognition because of that US military funding thing, and the films sort of waved vaguely in the direction of him no longer making weapons and then forgot all about it and had him keep doing it? (Also they expected us to laugh at him making a rape joke. WTF.)

They made canonically Jewish-Romani characters into white Christians working for HYDRA. (They also added a whole “oh HYDRA and the Red Skull just worked with the Nazis to gain power, they didn’t agree with the bigotry” thing presumably either so they didn’t have to address themes of bigotry and show their heroes fighting bigots, or to tone HYDRA down enough to sell merch of them, or both--when comics!Red Skull was very much explicitly a fanatical Nazi racist homophobe etc. I’m pretty sure they even tried to sell “Hail HYDRA” merch.)

I keep seeing talk of the X-Men joining the MCU and I just...do not trust them to adapt Magneto properly at this point at all. Or to adapt stories like “God Loves, Man Kills” or similar classic X-Men stories.

For that matter, while I’m not keen on some of the recent direction of the X-Men comics (WHY did they have Xavier and Magneto on the same council as Sinister, NO even remotely sympathetic character should work with Nazis, ESPECIALLY not a Jewish Holocaust survivor! also they seem to have practically made Xavier and Moira McTaggart into scheming supervillains at this point and like...they were both morally grey but I don’t think there was ever any need to take things THAT far...especially with Xavier it also kind of ruins his whole dynamic with Magneto, Magneto is meant to respect/even admire him to some extent and that doesn’t work if Xavier doesn’t have a single admirable trait...I know he was always secretive and did some morally questionable things but him and Moira both feel like different characters recently to in, say, Claremont’s era), they DO have Logan/Scott/Jean as a canon poly relationship, and also Kate Pryde--somehow I don’t think MCU will ever really have an explicitly bi Jewish pirate woman protagonist...

And yet people think of the MCU when they think “Marvel” and you see it in posts like “can’t believe anyone expects to see men kissing in Marvel” when we’ve had men kissing in Marvel for decades, it’s the MCU who won’t portray the characters they’re adapting properly...will “Marvel” ever stop being associated in people’s minds with “movies that are mostly CGI that have an explosion every five minutes and don’t pause to spend much if any time on character development or emotional moments”?

[southslates]

god that zk / d*rkalina post reminds me of why i left that fandom, i really hate how you can’t simply say you don’t like something without a bunch of people jumping on your back accusing you of ‘policing’ them or smth like how is me personally thinking something is gross affecting you? idk. esp since i’m black and they go doubly hard after me if i so much as imply that i don’t like something specifically because of racism / misogynoir.

it’s like when some atla fans get pissed off that not everyone likes aang. like he was never my favorite. after b3 / comics i actively dislike him. but every time i say i don’t like him i’m a monster who bullies 12 y/o and hates ‘non dramatic’ ships. like no, i… simply just do not like him. i never came for you. i just said i don’t like him and his (lack of) character development imo.

sorry for ranting in your inbox i am just sick of being demonized for not liking things by the so called ‘you do you’ crowd. ironically i feel like those white ‘fandom old’ types target people just as much as those they say they despise sometimes :/

right and the most annoying thing is that they claim they're all for you do you, but there's a difference between acknowledging something is unhealthy BUT fictional and romanticizing something that is unhealthy? some people don't seem to draw the line...and like i guess it's "you do you" and that's their business, but if we're going to state our opinions and accept that everyone's opinion is valid as long as they don't infringe upon other's opinions, then like....you can still be criticized

sorry you've dealt with misogynoir and racism in fandom, it really is sad how such a safe place ends up being a microcosm of the world that sometimes even amplifies its worst aspects in very insidious ways, because you leave your guard down when you're in fandom, you assume it's a safe space, and then...

i've always said i never dislike ships because of ships, but because of shippers. i loved darklina and i thought the dynamic was so cool to explore (as i said i've written several fics, like the first was when i was thirteen) but then the way i was harassed on twitter for disliking how people compared it to kanej in some form...ruined the ship for me. like, i never said don't ship it? i basically always said that darklina has a cool dynamic to explore but that i didn't want it to be canon because that is the normalization of abuse in its canonical interpretation. maybe there is a world where it could have been done and it being canon would not have been a bad impression on thirteen year old girls like me, the first time i read the grisha trilogy. but well, it isn't this one. i was there and i wish malina was better in the books lol so i would have found darklina less appealing.

but yes with the aang thing, too! i think the "you do you" anti harassment crowd has its extremes, especially when they defend racist and problematic behavior towards real life individuals in fandom as on the same tier of fictional interaction, especially because this defined "harassment" is not people venting on their accounts without instigating discourse. people will always have their opinions.

zk fandom has had a lot of issues with big name white fans conflating real problematic behavior within the fandom with general proship harassment. it's what drove me out of the fandom last year and i pray it will not happen again because it really really bothered me at the time

but anon i do empathize so so much with you <3 sucks that a supposed safe space like fandom still has so many complications--i just want to do my own thing, and that includes hating on things, in peace ✌️

[mattzerella-sticks]

I'm gonna need both Maeve and black noir to make it this season bc i want to see so much more of them especially as part of the boys group also hell yes at your idea of them just dating each other all over the place. I love this show but for something that constancy critiques things like racism and homophobia and sexism and how it manifests in our society it's still very much a very white straight male show which?? How about some queer relationships between your leads dude (part 1)

Like I hope so too because those two characters have so much untapped potential that we got GLIMPSES of this season, especially with the Boys. Maeve and Billy hanging out more would be great, and not in the sense of building up their relationship but because I think we need ANOTHER person who can call him out on his bullshit. And I've said this in other posts but BLACK NOIR AND KIMIKO & FRENCHIE?!?!?! They would work so well together.

That being said, as much as Eric Kripke has been pushed to the front of this series - and like, this isn't a knock against him - he is one of nineteen executive producers, and only wrote three out of, so far, twenty-three episodes. Yes, he's the showrunner, but there are other voices in the mix and Eric doesn't seem like the kind of person to nix ideas that might not appeal to or appear for straight, white, and male audiences. I think season 3 is a perfect example of them shifting away from this being such a white, male, and straight show through having Soldier Boy and - not to sound like Jensen in an umpteenth interview - toxic masculinity take the forefront as the season's villains, with Billy and Hughie falling under its sway. By developing Mother's Milk's backstory, giving him a complex character arc and really pushing him to the forefront of the story instead of focusing on Billy. By having this storyline of Annie not falling into the classic, lovelorn and 🥺 character it feels like she was written to be in the comics (which... talk about a case of American Sitcom Wife between comic Starlight and Hughie) and standing strong for her values against all the people who tried to make her bend as well as being an active agent in a lot of the plans. By, though it might be an unpopular opinion, not moving forward with making Kimiko and Frenchie's relationship romantic in nature - and also giving Kimiko agency and a voice at every turn alongside Frenchie's desire for tenderness that has really been doubled down on this season. I mean, if this show weren't turning away from a white, male, and straight audience would a) there have been the Reddit madness that was hilarious and b) so many men being turned on by Jackles and causing a new generation of Jen-heads? Billy and Hughie are not the driving force of this season nor the heroes they believe they are; they're technically minor antagonists at this point lol. I don't think they'll not be redeemed in the finale, but they've been making some pretty dumb choices all in the effort to make themselves feel better - and we've seen the story not reward them for this by causing rifts between them and the people they care about.

Yes, Supernatural - especially in its earlier seasons - was incredibly sexist and overwhelmingly white, with racist undertones at times and a lot of homophobia that seemed more than making gay people the 'butt of the joke'. But the circumstances and forces at play during Supernatural's early seasons, and the Boys now, couldn't be more different. The writer's rooms are different. Eric isn't the same man he was when Supernatural was in its infancy. There are different people involved. Instead of network television, this is streaming where there's a lot more freedom.

However, I do agree that queer characters on shows that aren't billed as 'gay' do tend to be few and far between without a lot of depth or complexity in their sexuality. We might not see all, if any, of their main male characters engage in queer play or activities, with anyone of the same or a non-binary gender including each other. They're taking strides with Frenchie, who of the Boys is the only confirmed queer character on their roster it seems, and Kimiko, by not taking their relationship into romantic territory - but mainly because of the direction of the story and from actors' and writers' inputs on the relationships.

If the story were to go there, like I've said, I don't see Eric being hesitant about doing so. The hesitance over Destiel - especially towards the end of the series - was majority network with a dash of one or two people in entrenched positions within the creative team. I don't see that, so far, with the Boys. It doesn't seem like they would be afraid if the story took them there, except for maybe Garth Ennis. But there is no active drive to make these choices either instead of being led by the story, which isn't a bad thing but a product of the people behind the wheel I guess which is what you're alluding to. As progressive as people can become, there are still things that they can be unaware of because of the privleges of their lives.

Also, it has to be said, despite Annie and Hughie's relationship being a major part of the story - romance is not the main drive of the Boys nor has it become a central focus of the story and plot like it had for Supernatural.

I like to say there'd be a polycule between Annie, Hughie, Frenchie, and Kimiko. But I also believe next season will focus on Hughie and Annie probably planning their future because it will be a season heavily about parents and children (Soldier Boy & Homelander, Billy & Ryan). If Victoria doesn't survive the season 3 finale, but that seems less and less likely the more episodes we saw, I figured they might adopt her daughter. Adoption, of any superpowered kid, though seems likely given the cover story Hughie mentioned, because why not take in a super-powered kid? Maybe they adopt the laser-eye baby lol. And while Frenchie is queer, who knows if they will introduce someone male-presenting to be his love interest and not have him reunite with Cherry. While I like Billy and Mother's Milk growing into a romantic relationship, they have set up Billy and Maeve in this season (if she survives that is), and I don't think Monique and Mother's Milk's story is over either.

I do think and would like to see Soldier Boy engage in male-on-male activities in the next season, however 😘

[nevermindirah]

Do you have any thoughts on the use of AAVE for Nile (or lack thereof) in TOG fanfiction? I've been reading some Book of Nile fic and some writers seem to write her as a Millennial™ (using words like "fave" and "woke") but never acknowledge her Blackness in her patterns of speech. I know we don't see her use as much AAVE in the films, but I would argue she's in situations where code-switching would be valued (first in a "professional" environment in the army, then around a group of non-Black strangers).

Hi anon! I have many thoughts on this and I'm honored you asked me! But I should start by saying I'm white and any thoughts Black fans and especially Black American fans have on this that they want to share would be beyond lovely. (I'm not gonna tag anybody bc that feels rude but please add onto this post if any of y'all see this and want to!)

The main reason I personally avoid AAVE for Nile in my own fics is because I'm not Black. But Nile-centric fics by Black writers tend to avoid using much of it too, at least from what I've noticed/understood, and my guess is it's largely for the reason you mention, that she's in situations that encourage code-switching.

In movie canon Nile is highly competent at tailoring her language to each situation she finds herself in. This fantastic linguistics analysis meta shows how skillfully Nile chooses her vocabulary and grammar to meet her goals with different conversation partners in different contexts. In comics canon Nile had a bunch of different civilian jobs before joining the Marines, so she would've had experience code-switching in the ways that made sense for all those different contexts as well as the Marines and her family and high school and wherever else she spent her time before we met her. And now she's spending her time with a handful of immortals none of whom are native English speakers and a fellow Black American but one with a Queen's English UK accent whose professional experience is in the CIA where high-status code-switching is often an absolute must for success or even survival.

Fics featuring Nile are charged with extrapolating from that to how it might show up in her use of language that she's coping with a traumatic separation from her family and her career and pretty much everything she's ever known and now she needs to be able to make herself understood to people who seem to care about her and each other but are super duper in crisis, three (soon to be four) of whom predate Modern English entirely and the only one who's anywhere near her contemporary she's not supposed to talk to for a century. All of these people are telling her that pretty much any contact with any mortals poses an existential threat to her and the rest of the group. How the FUCK is she supposed to cope with that, like, generally? And would it be a more effective way for her to cope if she talked to Andy Joe and Nicky using the speech patterns that she used to use with her mom and brother, to at least retain that part of her identity even if it means having to do a lot of explaining, or would it meet her needs better to prioritize Andy Joe and Nicky understanding what she means with her words over using the particular words and grammar forms she used with her family?

I've seen several fics, both Nile-centric / BoN and otherwise, explore this a little bit in how/whether Nile uses Millennial™ speak. It's often a theme in Nile texting Booker despite the exile because of the popular headcanon that he as The Tech Guy is the only other immortal who understands memes. But Nile's much-younger-than-Booker mom probably uses Boomer and/or Gen X memes and Andy has been adapting to new communication styles for forever as evidenced by her canon high level of fluency with standard-American-accented English.

Which brings us back to people avoiding AAVE because they're not Black and they don't want to make mistakes (or they're not Black and they don't want to get yelled at for making mistakes, though I think many people overestimate how much they'll get yelled at while underestimating how much these mistakes can hurt). I can imagine some Black fans hold back from using much AAVE in fic because they don't want to share in-group stuff with white people who are likely to then adopt and ruin it, as white people so often do with Black cultural stuff. Some links about this including a great Khadija Mbowe video. I'm saying this gently, anon, because you might not know: woke, an example you cited as Millennial™ speak, is AAVE, and that's gotten erased by so many white people appropriating it and using it incorrectly online.

And also there's the part where fandom is a hobby and you never know when you're reading a fic that's the very first thing someone's ever written outside of a school assignment. This cultural considerations of language shit takes a level of effort and skill that not everybody puts into every fic, or even could if they wanted to because they haven't had time to build their skills yet. It's definitely easier for non-Black fans to project our millennial feels onto Nile than to do the layers of research and self-reflection it requires to depict what Blackness might mean to Nile, and it's not surprising that often people sharing their hobby creations on the internet have gone the easier route. There's not even necessarily shame in doing what's easier. It's just frustrating and often hurtful when structural white supremacy means that 3-dimensional Black characters are rare in media and thoughtful explorations of them in fandom are seen by the majority of fans as not-easy to make and therefore Nile Freeman, the main character in The Old Guard (2020) dir. Gina Prince-Bythewood, has the least fic and meta and art made about her of our 5 main immortals.

I've been active in different fandoms off and on for twenty years and I barely managed to write 5,000 words about Sam Wilson across multiple different fics in the 7 years since I fell in love with him. There's an alchemy to which characters we connect with, and on top of that which characters we connect with in a way that causes us to create stuff about them. Something about Nile Freeman finally tipped me over the edge from a voracious reader to a voracious writer. It's not for me to judge which characters speak to other individuals to the level of creating content about them, but I do think it's important for us to notice, and then work to fight, the pattern where across this fandom as a whole Nile gets way less content, and way less depth in so much of the content that's in theory about her, than any of these other characters.

Anyway, back to language. My two long fics feature Nile with several Black friends — Copley and OCs and cameos from other media — but all of those characters except Alec Hardison from Leverage aren't American. It's very possible I'm guilty of stereotyping Black British speech patterns in I See Your Eyes Seek a Distant Shore. I watched hours and hours of Black haircare YouTube videos in the research for that fic and I modeled my OCs' speech patterns on what I heard from some of those YouTubers as well as what I've heard people like John Boyega and Idris Elba saying in interviews, but the thing about doing your best is you still might fuck up.

I'm slowly making progress on my WIP where Nile and Sam Wilson are cousins, and what ways of talking with a family member might be authentic for Nile is a major question I need to figure out. For that, I'm largely modeling my writing choices on how I hear my Black friends and colleagues talking to each other. I haven't overheard colleagues talking in an office in a long-ass time, but back when that was a thing, I remember seeing a ton of nuance in the different ways many of my Black colleagues would talk to each other. Different people have different personalities! And backgrounds! And priorities! A few jobs ago my department was about 1/3 Black and we worked closely with Obama administration staff many of whom were Black and there was SO MUCH VARIETY in how Black people talked to each other, about work and workplace-appropriate personal stuff, where I and other white coworkers could hear. There are a few work friends in particular who I have in my head when I'm trying to imagine how Sam and Nile might talk to each other. From the outside looking in, God DAMN is shit complicated, intellectually and interpersonally and spiritually, for Black people who are devoting their professional lives to public service in the United States.

One more aspect of this that I have big thoughts on but I need to take extra care in talking about is the idea of acknowledging Nile's Blackness in her patterns of speech. There's no one right way to be Black, and Nile's a fictional character created by a white dude but there are plenty of real-life Black Americans who don't use much or even any AAVE, for reasons that are complicated because of white supremacy. (Highly highly recommend this video by Shanspeare on the harms of the Oreo stereotype.)

Something that's not the same but has enough similarity that I think it's worth talking about is my personal experience with authenticity and American Jewish speech patterns. My Jewish family members don't talk like they're in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, and I've known lots of people who do talk that way (or the millennial version of it), some of whom have questioned my Jewishness because I don't talk that way. That hurts me. Sometimes when another Jew tells me some shit like "I've never heard a Jew say y'all'd've," I can respond with "well now you have asshole, bless your Yankee-ass heart," because the myth of Dixie is a racist lie but I will totally call white Northerners Yankees when they're being shitty to me for being Southern, and this particular Jew fucking revels in using "bless your heart" with maximum polite aggression, especially with said Yankees. But sometimes I don't have it in me to say anything and it just quietly hurts having an important part of me disbelieved by someone who shares that important part of me. The sting isn't quite the same when non-Jews disbelieve or discount my Jewishness, but that hurts too.

Who counts as authentically Jewish is a messy in-group conversation and it doesn't really make sense to explain it all here. Who counts as authentically Jewish is a matter of legal status for immigration, citizenship, and civil rights in Israel, and it's my number 2 reason after horrific treatment of Palestinians that I'm antizionist. But outside that extremely high-stakes legal situation, it can just feel really shitty to not be recognized as One Of Us, especially by your own people.

It can also feel really shitty to be The Only One of Your Kind in a group, even if that group is an immortal chosen family who all loves each other dearly. Sometimes especially in a situation like that where you know those people love you but there are certain things they don't get about you and will never quite be able to. I'm definitely projecting at least a little bit of my "lonely Jew who will be alone again for yet another Jewish holiday" stuff onto Nile when at the end of I See Your Eyes Seek a Distant Shore she's thinking about being the only Black immortal and moving away from the community she'd built with a mostly-Black group of mortals in that fic. Maybe that tracks, or maybe that's fucked up of me.

Basically, this got very long but it's complicated, writing about experiences that aren't your own takes skill which in turn takes time and practice to build, writing about experiences not your own that our society maligns can cause a lot of harm if done badly, it can also cause a lot of harm when a large enough portion of a fandom just decides to nope out of something that's difficult and risky because then there's just not much content about a character who deserves just a shit ton of loving and nuanced content, people are individuals and two people who come from the exact same cultural context might show that influence in all kinds of different ways, identity is complicated, language is complicated, writing is hard, and empathy and humility and doing our best aren't a guarantee of avoiding harm but they do go a long way in helping people create thoughtful content about a character as awesome and powerful and kind and messy and scared and curious and WORTHY as Nile Freeman.

[firelxdykatara]

zutara fandom is such a fucking hypocrite. you all call a native woman who loves her husband, who lives happily with him a trophy wife and a breeding machine, simply because you don't like kataang, despite the fact that in the canon she is still a respected matriarch of the tribe, a healer and trained avatar and has outlawed blood bending. you came up with the trophy wife yourself, but blame it all on bryke. didnt you have a popular headcanon where she has 5 children, abandons her nation to live as the "water tribe ambassador" in the fire nation. yknow because erasing her culture sounds cool i guess

Literally what are you talking about?

Pointing out that Katara is treated, post-atla canon, as Aang’s trophy is not ‘calling a native woman who loves her husband a trophy wife’ because like, I’ve got a newsflash for you, Katara does not exist. And criticizing the way the white men who created her chose to destroy her character in post-canon materials and the sequel show is not the equivalent of being racist or misogynistic--it’s actually calling out the racism and misogyny inherent in her treatment by the show’s creators!

Secondly, I’ve written extensively before about how Katara’s ‘achievements’ post-canon actually aren’t. The show pays minor lipservice to what Katara accomplished, but doesn’t actually show that she did anything worthwhile with her life other than have the Avatar’s children. She ‘outlawed bloodbending’? Sure she did, that’s why she was present at the trial for the most infamous bloodbender in history, right alongside her husband, brother, and friend..... oh wait. She ‘is still a respected matriarch of her tribe’? Sure she is, that’s why she was able to talk sense into her people when they were on the brink of civil war, that’s why people listened when she raised her voice and told them to stop being idiots, that’s why... oh, wait, none of that happened because she stayed in the healing huts the whole time. Oh, but she was ‘a healer’--not just that, but one of the greatest healers who ever lived? Sure! That’s why she was able to heal Korra’s bloodbending related injuries- hm, no, but I’m sure that’s why she was able to heal everyone else when their injuries were revealed to have been caused by bloodbending- no, wait, but I’m POSITIVE it’s why she was able to heal Korra’s injuries when she was recovering from mercury poisoning- wait, she didn’t do that either!

It’s encapsulated pretty neatly by this paragraph:

 [The problem is] that virtually none of these accomplishments matter in the context of LoK. Very little that Katara did during or after the war is so much as referenced, and even the things that are referenced matter very little. Katara never talks about her life except as it pertains to Aang, or her children. She doesn’t get to do anything during the series either, despite there being multiple things that–were it not for her entire personality being vacuumed out with almost surgical precision–she should have done if she were being kept true to character, or if she, like, cared about her family and people at all. (Things like, oh, attending her own granddaughter’s Air Master ceremony, or lifting finger one to save her family when they were in danger, or lifting finger one to step in when her people were getting thrown into a whole ass civil war...... ...)

@araeph‘s Consumed By Destiny series is also relevant here, because it goes into far greater detail about Katara’s utter lack of a character in LoK and the comics, especially as compared with her character in the original show.

As for my ‘popular headcanon’, I do indeed headcanon Zuko and Katara as having five children (though my conceptualization of their family will be different from others, everyone has their own hcs about the steam family and that’s so sexy of us), which should probably be the point where you realize that Katara having three kids with Aang is not what I have a problem with lmfao. But where the hell do you get ‘abandons her nation’ and ‘erasing her culture’ from ‘Water Tribe ambassador’???? Literally where????? The entire point of Katara being ambassador to the Fire Nation is to represent her culture in global matters of state. It’s so that she can be the voice for her people on the world stage, ensuring that their wants and needs are heard and fulfilled as the world moves forward and the nations grow together. It’s literally the complete opposite of ‘abandoning’ her nation, her people, or her culture, because everything about who they are and who she is will be everpresent in her life (and her husband’s life) because she’s thinking about them and acting for them in everything she does politically.

Just say that you hate people headcanoning Katara as having more agency in her own life and influencing global politics than canon allowed for her and go, honestly. Stop pretending you give a shit about Katara when you hold so much hatred for people envisioning something more for her than just being ‘the Avatar’s girl’ for the rest of her life.