#obvs she's not his batgirl that's steph

[call-me-oracle]

barbara gordon in the boy wonder #1

bonus:

[puppiesandnightlock]

k but rember that one post where i was like robins but withe six the musical

ive beenthinking way too much abt it latley and like during ex-wives when they say 1 2 3 4 5 six what if it was R O B I N robin

and like if we were to hypothetically go in order of them(dick, jason, tim, steph, damian, *someone probably duke or carrie idk*) steph would totally fit Get Down and anna of cleves whole vibe cause like

she was immediantly accepted and regected and went on to be batgirl and spoiler and made it on her own as spolier and shit idfk

and damian with all you wanna do, og i was thinking to switch them all up and have like, dick in that song but if u were to switch the meaning around and obvs if this is a parody a unch of lyrics would be switched

everyones thing with damian is like "murderer" "heir" "weapon" like thats a lot of his turmoil and in bad dad bruce he's just another child soldier and hes been shoved around hos whole life and handed off to people to meet their expectation and be used how they want to use him

so like?????

[roseworth]

Wait, I’m confused do you or do you not ship Jayrose?

short answer: usually no but ill ship it when its funny

long answer:

most of the reason i dont personally like it is because i see rose as a lesbian and i dont enjoy any ships of her with men (its fine if other people do! its just not my thing), plus i hc jason as aroace so im also not very interested in jason ships unless im in a very specific mood (the "specific mood" being jaykyle lmao. every few months i get really obsessed with jaykyle for a few days then i forget about it for the next few months. then the cycle repeats)

another reason i dont like it is that i am constantly in fear of rose becoming Jason's Girlfriend in comics and online. like how babs and kory are both seen as Dick's Girlfriend (also steph and tim to a lesser degree atm) and people refuse to engage with their character not in reference to their boyfriend, so writers have them constantly mention their relationship with dick even in comics that hes not in (like batgirls having dick show up randomly/birds of prey (1999) having babs talk about dick alllll the time, or kory in the current blue beetle run constantly mentioning dick even though theyre not dating rn and jaime has never even met dick). and thats somewhat starting to happen with rose where shes only in comics that jason is in and if jasons not in it then jason gets mentioned (see: catwoman #62). and obv as a rose fan i really don’t want that to happen because she’s such a great character outside of jason and i don’t want her to be reduced to just who she is with him. this is mostly me overreacting, especially since she had a miniseries just last year that jason was not in or mentioned at all. but being a fan of a female comic character means that most people are not willing to talk about her without mentioning her relationship with a man, and its even worse when the man is a batboy so i’m constantly on alert

so basically thats why it puts a bad taste in my mouth, but i have no issue with the ship itself or anyone who ships it!

i think jason & rose are extremely compatible. i see them as bffs but i genuinely do think about them in a relationship a lot even though i dont necessarily ship it. im rotating both of them in my mind 24/7 so i think about how i think they would act in a relationship & how it would ideally be done in canon. but i just dont trust any comic writers to actually respect rose

the reason i said that jayrose is one of the only jason ships that matters is because most jason ships are soooo bad... i wont name names but some jay ships rely on one or both of them being extremely out of character for it to work at all. in terms of jason ships, jayrose is one of the best just because a) an in-character jason AND an in-character rose would genuinely get along really well and b) none of the stories that they've been in have really been THAT out of character (with the exception of gotham war imo, which i went into here so i wont beat a dead horse. dceased was pretty bad too but that’s tom taylor’s fault it has nothing to do with jayrose). also unlike many other jason ships, a good portion of the people that ship jayrose are the ones who actually read the comics so it tends to be an actual Nuanced and Accurate portrayal. ofc there are many exceptions to that but as of rn jayrose is not one of the Certified Batfam Ships (you know those ships that are the only ships that fanon fans know about so whenever they want to give their fav a boyfriend they shove em with another character they know nothing about. like dick/wally where people say "well they were friends in yja thats enough for me" and they havent read anything with wally in it besides dick/wally fanfic and they dont care about him outside of his relationship with dick), so theyre somewhat safe. but unfortunately because of titans tv its also shipped by The Worst Man You've Ever Met so. you win some you lose some ig

it bothers me when people claim that they dont like jayrose because they "dont like what it does to rose" ???? literally when has jayrose ever been bad for rose. her worst out of character moments have nothing to do with jason in any way. she doesnt get sidelined for him and she doesnt get reduced to a damsel in distress or something. its annoying to me that people feel the need to make up an excuse for why they dont like the ship so they use rose as a scapegoat and pretend that theyre doing it for her when they actually dont know anything about her. just say you dont like it and move on! you dont need to justify it you can just not like it

so for the most part i have no issue with it, which is why i tend to mention it when i think its funny. theres a lot of jayrose content that i enjoy bc theyre fun together and i like seeing them interact! i dont ship them but i think its a good ship <3

however. despite all that i still have more thoughts. im playing devil's advocate against myself and disagreeing with everything i just said

because also. its kind of not in character for them to date. i like where they're at right now because theyre kind of in a casual thing, like theyre hanging out and having sex in the bushes but theyre not Dating. theyre not in a serious relationship that we've seen (other than gotham war but im not acknowledging that), so i like where they're at right now. hanging out, rose flirting aggressively and jason giving her next to nothing in return because he cant flirt, and probably having sex off panel*. i think theyre in a good place at the moment and i dont want it to change from exactly where it is right now in canon. *inside my head theyre actually just pals that pretend to flirt because they think its funny. they do not have sex off panel and they dont want to but the insane flirting is an inside joke that no one else thinks is funny. but thats just me

because neither of them has really shown any interest in dating (when written in character! so we're not counting rhato). the most "interested" jason has ever been in someone is minor flirting with donna in countdown. but he did not make a move on her and repeatedly said throughout that book that he was only focused on the mission and did not care about anything else. he doesnt seem to actually be interested in a relationship with anyone, partially because hes extremely emotionally closed off (to a degree. he is VERY open with his emotions, but hes not the kind of person that lets people into his life easily) and also because he just has other shit to think about. no sex only vengeance.

and ROSE. she is the most closed off person you will ever see. she will have casual sex in an effort to suppress all emotions (which i could talk about extensively. but thats not what this post is about), but she doesnt date people. the only people that she was close to being in a relationship with were eddie and hosun. with eddie, it was all flirting, emotional moments, and her pushing him away. she genuinely liked him (arguably. i could go into how its comphet but that is once again not what this is about), but she was closed off and didnt want to date him because she has so many issues. she tried to make him jealous and did her aggressive flirting thing like she does with jason, but she did not want to have an actual relationship with him. and with hosun, she once again (arguably) genuinely liked him, but she did not tell him that. she MARRIED HIM and still didnt talk to him about her feelings. he liked her and was interested in a relationship with her, but she did not want to embrace that and didnt make any effort to have a real relationship with him outside of agreeing to stay married to him after slade was arrested. she doesnt have any interest in actually dating the guys she likes, and shes so emotionally repressed that she will not make any effort to even be close with them

i hate phantom-one and i hate the idea of rose dating phantom-one but. i genuinely think their "relationship" is pretty in character for her (brisson understands her so well), because at most they have some nice conversations. shes somewhat interested in him so she'll come onto him a bit (no aggressive flirting but still), and she opens up to him when shes at her absolute lowest, then she leaves. shes more focused on what stormwatch is doing and she shows little interest in phantom-one during missions, but she likes him and oscillates between ignoring him and hitting on him. so.. out of the relationships rose has in recent canon..... i could make the argument that rose/phantom-one is more in character for her than jayrose even though i like jayrose a LOT more than i like rose/phantom-one

so yeah. its in character for them to get along. but i DONT think its in character for them to be in a serious relationship. which is another part of the reason im kinda skeptical about their relationship in canon, just because i dont want it to be an actual Relationship since it doesnt really make sense for them to actually date given... everything about them.

but again thats all just my opinion! ship whatever you want we're all just playing with dolls

[dont-be-so-shy]

let's make a timsteph fix-it because i desperately need it

(keep in mind that this all is canon, whyyyy)

things that need fixing:

Robin told Spoiler about Karl Ranck’s death so Stephanie showed up to the funeral without knowing Tim was there with his girlfriend, Ariana

That's not an issue to be precise, it's just so incredibly awkward it fucks me up a bit (but we stan supportive Steph obvs). also, i don't even think Steph knows he has a gf??

right after Tim and Ariana broke up, Robin and Steph started dating

er, yeah Tim actually liked Ariana a lot and their break-up was very bittersweet so even though he does like Steph, it should take a bit for them to get together

Tim left Gotham and moved to Kansas during No Man’s Land and the last few months of Steph’s pregnancy

i'm not sure what to do about it but Tim literally left Gotham during a time it needed him for his asshole dad during one of the hardest times on Steph's life and one of the hardest times of Gotham as a whole

Robin followed Star, a friend from his new boarding school, into a suspicious alley and ran into Spoiler on patrol

She thought he was cheating on her after Robin saved Star from a gang shootout

ok, first of all, ask. you really think Tim can lie to you?

While Robin was on a mission in Tibet, Batman approached Spoiler and told her Tim’s name

NO why???? Bruce, your mistakes astound me. to fix this? i personally believe Tim should have told her during Steph's pregnancy but the fact that Bruce told her while Tim was away is... a little worrying. like, what was your reasoning here, dude?

Steph showed up at Tim’s school to surprise but worried he was cheating on her when some girl hit on him

again, askkk. he won't lie to you

While Tim was unwillingly retired, Steph snuck into the Batcave and demanded Batman make her Robin because of the above ^ incident

nooo Steph this isn't how you deal with cheating suspicions

Steph willingly spent a year in Africa after faking her death

She told Leslie to fake her death

She doesn’t tell Tim she’s alive

She doesn’t go with Red Robin on his Eurotrip/Brucequest

i'm thinking of writing a TimSteph fix-it because this? this is a goddamn mess.

in my perfect world,

steph tells tim she's going to ranck's funeral and Tim is like, okay. and that's fixed.

steph waits for a bit for tim to get his thoughts together and tim actually gets his thoughts together and they have a long talk about it and tim and ariana have a long talk too and ariana gets therapy please.

tim stays in gotham during nml. jack drake is in fucking kansas, what's he gonna do to you timmy? call you? no, wait, he can't because the fucking phone lines are down.

tim tells her his secret id and they start dating as tim and steph

tim being there for steph's c-section is good, let's keep that

steph did have worries over star but tim realized she was sad and they had a long talk over steph's worries and tim tells her he'll never cheat on her

the other cheating scare never happened but if tim and steph happen to cuddle extra-hard no one's gonna know, okay?

tim knows he's not gonna be back to being robin for a while so he tells steph he's okay with her being robin and supports her through bruce's harshness.

leslie fakes steph's death unwillingly and once steph is fully lucid from her injuries (a few days, maybe a few weeks?) she calls her mom and then tim and tells them she's alive

she returns to gotham asap and is now only going by spoiler because she doesn't have another name... but she will

(spoiler was made in her father's shadow and steph's rise to batgirl symbolizes her becoming better than her past and yes i have strong Feelings about this okay?)

she doesn't know if she believe tim about the bruce thing and she stays in gotham only to make sure things are not gonna collapse after bruce's death. then she joins tim

steph doesn't like jason because he beat up tim (also he’s just insane and also a villain so)

tim goes apeshit on damian for calling her fatgirl because that's offensive as fuck (even tho she’s probably chill with it bc she’s actually good with kids)

tim has a strained relationship with jean-paul (tim def refers to himself as jvp’s babysitter more than once) much like steph has a flip-floppy relationship with leslie

and if i do write it, it's still gonna be angsty in a good way 'cause guess who's gone green!

introduciiinnnggg... lazarus!steph!

okay tim legit tried to clone kon. no matter how much he doesn't want the pit, if steph dies, whaddaya think he's gonna do?

and finally: ships and friendships if i do write it!

tim & steph & connor hawke (<3), steph & klarion bleak, steph & kara zor-el, tim & the titans, steph & the birds of prey, tim & bernard dowd & sebastian ives, tim & steph & the assassins three, tim & steph & superman, probably kon/bart, teekl/dex-starr, cassie/cissie, klarion and connor/somebody, steph & cass, steph & babs.

i might even make a little green lantern fusion because those are amazing

[ravenkinnie]

What would you say is the ideal Batfam dynamic?

I'm gonna preface this by saying I'm a hater and I love angst and when people fight <3 I think they should all have beef with each other and almost nobody should get along <3

the only people who should have good relationships with each other:

*damian: cass and dick ofc edited to add steph fuck

*cass: tim, steph, dick, babs, damian, duke

*duke literally is just vibin, he has like no conflict with anyone but someone once said his one conflict should be with batcow and I think that's fucking funny

jason has the most drama potential!!! he should be a sort of anti-hero, doing his thing and working by his principles but with some conflicted feelings and yearning for his family, like he shouldnt compromise his principles to get along with bruce or dick better but if they have to work together they would be like "wish all that shit didn't happen and it could be like this now" but it's not because it did happen

I don't care for tim but why the fuck would jason consider him his brother tbh... king came back at 22, if my mom adopted a 17 year old after I had no contact with her for like 7 years i would be like "that's the guy living in my moms house" not "yeah that's my little brother" what fucking families do people have what

cass would hate jason like I don't know what sort of lobotomy fanon cass would have to go through to just be like :< pls don't kill uwu but cass is so much more strict on her no killing rule and her belief in how valuable life is is so fundamental (even bruce says so!!! please read her batgirl run she's an insanely nuanced character!!!),their ethics are so fundamentally different I don't think they would get along at all

I think damian should forever think jason is a clown and be mean to him, I think he should bully him into a hair transplant even. every time jason references his death damian should be like "okay and? I died too and I'm over it now #builtdifferent", bruce refers to jason as his brother and damians like sorry I have one brother and like seven sisters idk this man

bruce shouldn't be like. beating his kids because hashtag not my batman 💀 but people make him waaaay too functional he's 100% a dysfunctional well intentioned father who tries but doesn't get it right a lot and has a lot of his own shit that prevents him from connecting with his kids or doing 100% right by them

babs and bruce had such an interesting relationship preboot holy shit, she was one of the people he really did consider his equal and she did not let him get away with half the shit he did to others - and it makes sense because she was in his thirties while he was in his forties like obv he's not gonna treat her like a barely experienced 20 yo I wiiiiish they brought it back

steph would literally die before calling bruce her father y'all are wildin, she would be like yeah I get that your were Going Through Something (aka being butchered by comics writers with hard ons for frank miller) but also. forgive never forget <3 and he would be like yeah I'm working through that guilt in therapy anyways here's your college degree paid for do you want an internship too

(I think batgirls in general should be like... only tangentially under bruces supervision like babs made batgirl by specifically going against bruce shshhs it's always been babs' (and bettes but rip bettes legacy at this point) mantle like batgirls are mentored by oracle not batman and I think they should always respond to oracle first I don't like what they are doing with this legacy at all. I wish it continued being passed down to new young girls taken in by birds of prey as current batgirls (steph, cass) age and grow into their own identities) (I will literally always say it. steph should have trained under oracle as batgirl and then become spoiler again because spoiler was a good ass identity on it's own and she really would have made a name for herself with it)

[bluebeetle]

honestly since its on my mind here is my rankings of jason ships off the top of my head:

jayt1m, bruj4y, j4ydick,j4ydami, jayt4lia, jaysl4de: theyre bad scoob. inc3st and p3do shit galore; jayt1m woulda been more bearable if tim hadnt been adopted right before jay came back, but still has issues esp re: how jay acted towards tim and tim being a minor while jay is an adult, ableit one very close to his age. tbh i dont trust anyone who likes any of these for obvs reasons. anyways jay has a rly interesting dynamic with all of them except slade tbh and making it romantic ruins it for various reasons, but also bc family is SUCH a driving point for jason!!!! 

jaybabs: i am so tired of DC putting babs with every man they can lol. she deserves better. anyways i dont like it, the few interactions we see with babs and jay prior to him coming back have very older babysitter-like energies, she is supposed to be older than dick (who was already 18 when jay was 12!!) and has known him since he was a child its a weird age gap and they rly dont have a lot in common other than a shared trauma over the joker. its not good and does a disservice to what could be a good platonic relationship that could allow them to heal, esp jay. 

jayroy: i prefer them as friends. they have such good energy with jay as roys’s friend’s little brother who somehow became his friend but as a romance its kinda dull to me, and im not the biggest fan of their age gap 

jaydonna: only ogs will remember when DC tried to push that jay-kyle-donna love triangle on us lol thanks dan didio. honestly its not the worst, i could maybe see it, but donna being around dicks age still makes it a lil weird and the love triangle sucked. donna deserves better, but hey, its better than donnas canon husband tho! 

jaysionis: no comment.

jayanita: yes this exists it appears in 1 issue of the young justice comic during the world without young justice storyline. in this jay is about 18 and alive, with something akin to his pre-crisis backstory. hes shown to have been in a relationship with anita, who i believe is around 16-18 and then he dies lol. would be interesting to see them meet in normal canon but anita hasnt appeared since like 2007 and who knows how old she’d be now with the wonky ages. has potential ig but its in a grey area. 

jayrose: i feel like they have potential BUT it is ruined by the fact that it only ever seems to exist with them already together and interested in each other, with basically no build up or real chemistry as a result. it feels forced and more like out of a necessity to pair people up. they could have a fun dynamic, esp around damian but it feel like its never done right, and often at rose’s expense

jaykyle: their ages are vague due to varous timeline fuckery in DC but i always assumed they were both roughly college age by the time they interact, with kyle being a lil bit older . has a lot of potentiall imo but they havent interacted much in so long. got that sorta bad boy x tortured artist thing going on i like it.

jayconnor: tbh i would love to see them interact more. i feel like this is the superior jay/archer ship tbh tbh. i think it could rly work esp bouncing off each other with their different personalities but they still have a lot in common. they def should interact more now that connor is back in the comics.

jaysteph: speaking of ppl who need to interact more... DC has fucked with their ages a bit since they want to age up jay but not age up steph, so that is an issue, however originally they were only about a year or two apart (since jay is a few months younger than cassandra cain and steph is older than tim by about a year). they have a lot in common with their backstories and their roles in the batfamily so i think it could b cute! much better jay/batgirl ship than babs tbh... would love to see them just TALK. also funny to imagine jay rubbing it in tims face.

jaytemis: i rly like artemis and can see potential in this one so i really do like it! however scott lobdell is NOT the one who shoulda been telling their story and thus they suffer from his writing heavily imo. has a lot of potential and is def my fave bat x amazon ship.

[fishfingersandjellybabies]

I was watching a trashy TV show about people climbing mountains or crossing deserts and stuff for soul searching after traumatic injuries and had the thought, what if Babs went on one of those after her rehab, found Damian in the middle of his own survival training and kidnapped him. Obv she doesn't bring him back to Gotham/America since Talia would look there first. She contacts Bruce but he flails in panic and says he trusts Barbara to take care of Damian. So Phoenix(or something) Babs and her

(cont) her sidekick travel the world, fighting crime globally while she's still keeps anneye on Gotham as Oracle. Then Bruce "dies" and they go to his funeral, not planning to stay. But then Jason flips. Cass ditches. Tim runs off to search for Bruce. So now new Batman needs a Robin and new Batgirl needs mentoring. Whelp. And turns out Bruce didn't tell Dick/Alfred/etc about Damian before he died. So that was a fun conversation. NOT. And Dami doesn't wanna leave Babs bc Dick is flaky.

I’d think the most interesting part of this would be Babs own maternal instinct being apparent/the time Bruce was ‘dead.’ I imagine Dick would insist on making Damian Robin for the same canon reasons of keeping an eye on him, but Damian doesn’t and won’t trust him, nor will want to leave Babs in any capacity, especially since he doesn’t trust anyone in the Batfam.

But would they try? Like Dick can keep an eye on Damian/Damian keep an eye on Dick for Babs, while Steph keeps an eye on Babs for Dick/Babs keep an eye on Steph? Cross-suspicion and concern. And it’s tense and weird but Damian always goes back to his pseudo-ma at the end of the day, and they have bitch sessions about Dick and everyone feels better the end haha

[roseworth]

What is it with the three "bad" Robins and their lack of friends :( they deserve to have a lot of friends and connection with other heroes outside of Gotham. Like don't you think it makes sense for them to have a lot of friends, Steph with her personality and Jason + Damian with the lack of them during their childhood. It makes sense but dc >:(

oh my god youre gonna regret sending me this because i have so much to say

first of all youre literally so right :( its so upsetting that they dont get to have meaningful connections to other people because they've all been heroes for a long time so its fucked up that they dont get friends!!

like with jason he honestly just. didnt have enough time to make friends when he was robin :( he had eddie because eddie was like the only other sidekick at the time that wasnt a titan. like if jason lived he would've probably been friends with young justice (and honestly. just the thought of that feels wrong fhksajfhafk the idea of jason being friends with yj just does not sit right with me) but there just. weren't enough other heroes his age at the time for him to be friends with anyone as robin :( THEN when he came back obv he didnt have friends until rhato but even then???? they put him with roy and kory who both had to be written out of character just for it to make sense for him to be friends with them. so he was really fucked over in that regard (but not as much as roy and kory were fucked over) then he was friends with bizarro and artemis and??? obv bizarro wasnt going to exist much outside of rhato, and as an amazon artemis isnt really going to be hanging out with jason or anything outside of one of his books. so he just??? doesnt get to have friends that make sense and he doesnt form meaningful friendships since the people hes been paired with dont have lasting power in their relationships with him :(

STEPH however. it literally makes me so sad that she doesnt have friends because!!!! she had SO many friends in batgirl 2009 !!! she was constantly teaming up with other people and working with others and doing so many good things :( the last issue has a team up with her, supergirl, miss martian, bombshell, and stargirl and!!! i think about that team up all the time :( :( not to mention someone told me one time that the writer planned a team up with steph kara and mia but they weren't able to do it because the universe reset >:( steph had so many friends and then she was wiped out of existence after the new52 :(!!!!! she was besties with kara in that book and now they dont even know each other :( :( :( and she doesnt have any friends outside of gotham anymore because she didnt exist for years and hasn't been written well ever since :( im fine. its fine. im fine.

and damian. oh my god. its literally so fucked up. dont get me wrong i LOVE his friendship with jon but. oh my god. damian just does not have people other than jon :( he even had a teen titans team and then????? the writer made him super evil and had him like?? run a private prison in the tower or something??? idk i refuse to read the book. but he could have been FRIENDS with them!!! he WAS friends with them!!! but nooooooo damian is the evil robin! he cant have friends hes mean and no one likes him! /s :( he could have been friends with them if the writer was just normal about it. not to mention!!! even his friendship with jon is so sad bc they aged jon up and now their dynamic is just. completely different. so damian basically gets left behind by his friend that suddenly aged like 8 years without him and now its all completely different :(

i just. ugh. the only reason they dont have friends is because dc and the writers are basically working against them and not giving them people that they could actually form relationships with or theyre fucking them over and taking people away from them. it literally makes me so upset and i love these three so much i am going to kill someone about it