#whoo this got longer than i expected it to

[sir-adamus]

My absolute favorite thing about ATSV is the narrative repetition of not only literal religion but wanting to do both things / two things and the callbacks to walker scenes. Miles trying to catch Gwen after he startles her and the Spot kicks her vs her trying to save him from falling during the chase and he snaps the line on purpose

Miles and his two cakes and Pavitr saying “I can do both!” as we see he cannot hold the bus and save captain singh and the girl (but with help they do indeed save everyone)

Miles literally has DNA from two different dimensions he’s literally always been both since he got bitten!! That’s the point it’s so good!!

Spider-Man doesn’t always win. They don’t always save the day. But with this unique technology they have a chance to learn and make friends and new connections. If the issue was just universe hopping then the whole spider base thing would be a bad idea. I can’t wait for the power of friendship and trying even tho it seems hopeless to kick ass in Beyond it’s gonna be so good.

Gwen also has an "i can do both" thing - trying to keep the canon event happening and save Miles (and thinking she failed when he gets buried under the rubble, which is why she was so panicked in that scene, because she was right back at the night of the dance and seeing Peter crushed under the rubble)

and yeah the thing is it's like

this movie is hanging a lampshade on the idea that Spider-Man needs to have these personal tragedies happen to be a better hero - that these events aren't just unfortunate happenstance but Fated Incidents that have to happen in order for them to be correct in the role (and uh, just a note... doesn't apply to Miguel - literally none of his story lines up with the Peter archetype)

like - the Uncle Ben death is a tragedy because it could have been prevented, it was something Peter could've stopped and didn't because of his pride, and the resulting guilt of that forms his 'with great power must also come great responsibility' thing (which also a note, not originally an Uncle Ben line, it was just a narration bit, only got applied to Ben later) - but the point is it's a code he forms in the wake of tragedy, not a predestined event meant to teach him a lesson

and more importantly Miles in these movies never needed to learn that - because he outright quotes the line to Peter B during the first movie, and of course he did! he's about 13/14 in Into the Spider-Verse, Blond Peter had been Spider-Man for a decade and he marketed the hell out of it; every kid in New York grew up knowing the line (which is actually a factor i don't see people discussing when it comes to the 'Earth 42 Miles and Earth 1610B Miles swapped fates' thing, we don't know what kind of Spider-Man that the Earth 42 Miles would've become, or how our Miles would've ended up if he hadn't been bitten)

Uncle Aaron's death is rather erroneously framed like Ben's by Miguel, but a) it wasn't something Miles could've prevented but didn't, he very nearly died himself, and b) it's reinforced later as 'sometimes you can't always save everyone'

so in terms of 'canon events', Aaron's death fits the George Stacy death more than it does the Uncle Ben death, where it happens in a moment it is impossible for Spider-Man to prevent it as a result of the main villain of the story (Aaron is even trying to save Miles in that moment, who was wearing the red store-bought Spider-Man costume, and pointedly the kids George and Inspector Singh try to save in those moments are also wearing red) - however ultimately it's trying to fit all these personal, different tragedies into a specific box that's the problem, because that's not how life works (nor is it how the multiverse works, but Miguel thinks it does and he's convinced others of the same and refuses to accept any alternatives). Aaron's death isn't a variation on Uncle Ben's death, George Stacy's death or anyone else's death. it's the death of Aaron Davis

also, introducing other Spiders completely changes the surrounding context and the stakes - if Inspector Singh had died there, would Pavitr have come to the conclusion that he couldn't always save everyone? or would he have been angry and resentful that the people he thought were his friends sat there and did nothing when they could have helped? because he wasn't alone in that situation, which completely changes the ballpark even if no one else interferes, it would affect how he responds to it

so it's all questioning why these events need to happen - if we're looking at it in-universe, these things are just unfortunate tragedies. looking at everything bad that happens to you as predetermined fate meant to teach you a lesson is both incredibly unhealthy and fucking dehumanising to your loved ones - a community of Spider-People can help each other and mentor the younger ones to convey the lessons and codes the elders pieced together so they don't have to go through the same shit, be forced through the same pain under the bullshit logic that the suffering will make them 'better'

and from a meta-narrative perspective, the 'canon' is the stakes of the story; Earth-65B continues to run even with George quitting, because dramatically speaking, learning Gwen is Spider-Woman and nearly losing her forever, while Gwen avoids going home because she's terrified that her father hates her and - compounding that - is scared that if she does go home, he'll already have died. that drama is 'good for the story' and can resolve without anyone dying

Peter B literally only has Mayday because of Miles, the 'original anomaly', and yet Earth-616B is perfectly fine with a child who - according to Miguel's logic - should not exist. why? because Peter B has started putting in the effort to make his life work, 'making adjustments at half-time', and earning his happy ending

whereas Miguel deciding to skip all the hard work of trying to make his life better by just inserting himself into a happy life that belongs to someone else, and that reality crumbles apart because he didn't earn it - so the stakes had to be raised, and the resulting guilt is what turns Miguel into the uncompromising anti-hero we have in this film

Spider-people are capable of incredible things, and are capable of even more incredible things when they have each others' backs - they've just gotten too caught up in their guilt complexes to realise that

[freakadr0id]

Addendum to Donnie's Fight Style Analysis

I'VE BEEN INSPIRED. Okay, okay, know it's been over four months since my last analysis post, but life got really crazy and I had to deal with some major stuff and a huge loss of motivation afterward. However, after getting into LMK again, I finally felt motivated to properly come back to these and finish a few posts I've had in the works for ages. Admittedly, this is not one of them.

This is a minor continuation of my original Fight Style Analysis post for Donnie. This is something that occurred to me some time after completing it, but I figured I'd talk about it because I do think it is worth mentioning. Just as with the previous analyses, there is a bit of a TL;DR at the end because WHOO this ended up way longer than I thought it would.

[Donnie Fight Style Analysis]

~-~-~-~

A little bit ago, I decided to go through Rottmnt again, just for fun, but upon getting to the final couple of episodes and the movie there was something about Donnie's fight style that really started to bug me. I couldn't place it at first, but about a week ago I realized what it was.

Donnie does not appear to improve his fight style by the end of the show.

Let me explain:

As I stated in my original analysis, Rise of the TMNT is generally pretty good about demonstrating the growth of the characters' abilities over the course of the show (and movie). It uses its composition, animation, and choreography to increase the complexity of fight scenes, not only making them more exciting and entertaining but to show how the skills of the characters improve to allow for these more complex fights. Rise also shows the growth in characters' abilities this in a more explicit way by providing the audience with a specific focal point for comparing the eventual growth of each character's skills.

In "The Shadow of Evil" Splinter verbally states the deficiencies of each turtle's fighting abilities - Leo's is cockiness and arrogance, Raph's is impulsiveness, Mikey's is inexperience and ignoring fundamentals in favor of flourish, while Donnie's is his reliance on tech. They are deliberately telling us, the audience, what exactly to look for as we watch the fights and to compare how they fight at the start of the show versus the end.

For the most part, Rise seems to make good on that source of comparison. Leo is less cocky and arrogant in fights, Raph doesn't rush in as much, and Mikey is a bit more practical in his movements and attacks (although he still has his razzmatazz).

Donnie, however, doesn't seem to get the same treatment. Yes, he very clearly improves as a fighter, but his fundamental weakness remains unchanged and unaddressed. He still relies heavily on his tech by the end of the show, arguably even more after he gets his Ninpo (for the sake of clarity, yes, his mystic tech counts in this as well - it serves the same purpose). In the finale and in the movie, he's constantly using his mystic constructs in fights, with the show even portraying this as something cool and victorious.

THIS FRUSTRATED THE HELL OUT OF ME. If everyone else displays noticeable growth in overcoming their weaknesses in fights, how did they stumble so hard on Donnie's character? Why was Donnie the exception? I must have missed something.

Yeah. I did.

Donnie's fight style does improve over the course of the show, it just develops in a more subtle way.

The show claims, as stated by Splinter, that Donnie's greatest weakness in a fight is his reliance on tech ("Do not rely on your tech, funny one"), but that statement isn't quite right.

Splinter's words in this scene give a supposed indication as to the way Donnie's fighting style will improve by the end of the show. By stating that Donnie should not rely on his tech, the audience expects that, by the finale, Donnie won't use his tech as much and will become a much better fighter through traditional techniques. However, that doesn't happen, with Donnie still using his tech as a fundamental part of his fight style in both the final episode and the movie. This is why it appears that Donnie doesn't develop his fighting skill much throughout the show when this couldn't be further from the truth.

The phrasing used here is misleading. A better way to describe Donnie's weakness is that he uses his tech improperly in battle.

When stated in this way, is easier to see how Donnie improves his fighting by the end of Rise. It shifts the audience's expectations as to the trajectory of Donnie's growth as a fighter and provides a better point of comparison for how his fight style changes.

At the start of the show, Donnie uses his tech as a crutch, a fallback when he thinks traditional techniques won't work. There are several instances in season one and early season two where Donnie relied on his tech instead of utilizing traditional techniques (Yes, I see you "Many Unhappy Returns"). This can be a critical mistake as it changes up his attack pattern (ahem, Glass Cannon) and it leads to him losing the advantage in a fight. THIS is Donnie's biggest weakness when fighting - not the fact that he simply uses his tech in battle.

With this perspective, Donnie absolutely improves and grows, just as his brothers do. Instead of reducing his reliance on his tech, as the show's phrasing implies he should, he adjusts the way he uses his tech by applying it more effectively and strategically. He stops relying on it as a fallback and begins using his tech in ways that fit the situation and limits his vulnerability. In the last few episodes of the show, Donnie tends to keep his distance when he needs to use his tech and waits for a better opportunity to attack, instead of just using it because he can (except for his hammer, which makes sense since it's intended for melee combat). In the final fight with Shredder, Donnie keeps his distance from him after attempting an initial hit with his bo. Once realizing he can work off of Shredder's arrogance ("You think your puny mystic weapon can harm me?") that's when he uses his tech and lands a stronger blow. It's a more strategic and calculated use of his drill than what he would have done (or did) at even the start of season 2.

The same applies to the fight with Krang in/outside the Technodrome. Donnie uses his mystic construct to fire a barrage at the Krang from a distance so that he doesn't put himself at risk with the absence of his battleshell.

Donnie's tech is a deeply ingrained part of his character. It's his passion, his source of expression, and his legacy. Heck, he already wears a tech shell every day and in nearly every battle. To separate the tech from the turtle, especially in a fight, would be doing the character a huge disservice, and Rise does seem to recognize that. They even emphasize this in End Game when Splinter regrets dismissing their unique strengths which, in this case, would be Donnie's tech.

While perhaps poorly stated within the show itself, they clearly do not make an effort to reduce Donnie's usage of tech in battle (again, Insane in the Mama Train aside), instead demonstrating the growth of his fighting style through the more subtle applications of his tech.

~-~-~-~

[TL;DR: The show deliberately states the weaknesses each turtle has in battle in "The Shadow of Evil" and, while Leo, Raph, and Mikey all have notable improvement in overcoming those weaknesses, Donnie doesn't appear to. The show suggests that Donnie's weakness in battle is in his reliance on tech, making it seem that his fight style doesn't improve as much since he uses his tech from the start to the end of the show. However, Donnie does actually improve in his fighting style throughout the show as his growth as a fighter is actually dependent on how Donnie uses his tech, instead of reducing his reliance on it altogether.]

~-~

There's a strong chance I'm simply reiterating things other people have long since noticed, but this was something I felt could have, or should have, been addressed to some degree in my original analysis. I'm ashamed that I missed this in my initial observations because this feeds into a crucial part of Donnie's character, that being his confidence in his tech and the arrogance that comes with that. I feel like it is important to mention these sorts of changes in the way each character fights in order to fully understand what it is about the action and fight scenes in Rise that make it so special.

There are a few other things I do want to cover, but because of how spotty my motivation and schedule have been, I make no guarantees as to how long it will take. Sorry about that. I hope people find this interesting, at the very least, because I really do enjoy making these silly little things.

[catharsisxf]

I'm an embarrassingly slow writer so I won't be posting a fic per day but I'll hopefully make it through a few of these prompts from @msrafterdark!

Dashing through the Snow

Rating: G

Prompt: Best Christmas ever

AO3 link

____________________

S,

Meet me tomorrow at the base of the Masonic Temple. 9am. Dress warmly.

-M

Scully had gotten back to the office rather late on Friday after an autopsy had gone longer than expected. Still she was surprised that Mulder had seemingly already left for the weekend. As intrigued as she was by the note he'd left on her desk she sincerely hoped she hadn't gotten up early on the weekend for a case. It was only a couple days before Christmas and she really really needed to finish her shopping.

The Masonic Temple in Alexandria was situated at the top of large hill that gave impressive views of the surrounding area. Last night was the first decent snowfall of the season and as she trudged up one of the pathways leading to the building she noticed numerous families sledding down the terraced hillsides.

She spotted him immediately as she made it to the top of the hill. Wearing the bright green alien knit hat she got him as a gag gift last year he was practically bouncing up and down scanning the crowds for her. His toothy grin as he spotted her made her insides flip in a way that she wasn't quite ready to acknowlege.

"Right on time!" he beamed. He gestured to the large wooden toboggan next to him and waggled his eyebrows playfully.

"Mulder," she said as if he'd just presented her a slideshow about Bigfoot being personally responsible for crop circles. "You can't be serious."

"C'mon Scully, this is one of the best sledding locations in the area. We can't pass this up!"

She smirked at his giddiness and eventually nodded in acceptance. Mulder positioned the toboggan at the edge of the slope and motioned for her to have a seat. She had assumed they'd be taking turns but was surprised when he situated himself snugly behind her. Reaching around her to grab the strap he nudged them forward slightly. "Ready?" She nodded. Unsure of what to do with her hands she grasped his upper arms tightly.

As they took off down the hillside they quickly gained speed, the other riders becoming a blur in her peripheral vision. She felt a couple moments of weightlessness as they careened over the terraced slope. Coming to a stop at the bottom she felt breathless both from adrenaline and the feeling of Mulder's warm body wrapped around her.

"Whoo!" he exclaimed. "Let's go again! His enthusiasm was contagious and she found herself racing him back up to the top.

After a few more runs they headed back to their cars in comfortable silence, Mulder dragging the toboggan behind him. "The last Christmas I spent with Samantha we went sledding," he said suddenly. Scully glanced at him in surprise but he kept his eyes trained on the ground. "There were a couple places around the island where you could sled and she begged me for days to take her. It snowed Christmas morning so we spent all day sledding. She was so happy." He slowed and finally looked at her. "It was the best Christmas ever," he said quietly, a wistful smile on his face.

Her heart broke for the boy who whose world was shattered so long ago. Not for the first time she wondered how different he would be now if his childhood memories weren't forever tinged with sadness around the edges.

Stopping in front of her car she raised on her tiptoes and gave him a lingering kiss on his wind-reddened cheek. Pulling back she saw his eyes open slowly and a dreamy look on his face. "Merry Christmas, Mulder."

"Best Christmas ever," he whispered.

[centaurianthropology]

Given how things are shaping up in C3 I have some thoughts about what might happen next (moon scouting aside). It’s clear that the Hells are given power-ups similar but different to the Vestiges of Divergence quests in VM. And honestly, I totally understand how the shard ended up with Ashton rather than Fearne. From an in-character perspective (and even from a player perspective), of course it went to them. The shard appeared at the end of what has essentially been Ashton’s backstory quest, which has been all about titans. Ashton is about titans and dunamancy. Fearne is about fae and a touch of infernal. So when people insist she get the titan shard just because they’re both fire-based? The shard that appeared right at the end of Ashton’s quest for information about himself? Yeah, I’d want to give it to him too, concentrating titan power into Ashton.

And that leads me to my real thoughts about what happens next: essentially the Hells, or at least several of them, have doubled down on what originally gave them power. Ashton has doubled down on titans, Laudna on Delilah (and I think we’ll get a full quest of that later).

I think that the moon scouting mission will double as something of Imogen’s continued backstory quest (a lot of the early part of the campaign started it, but this, I hope, will focus on Leliana). I think we’ll probably gain some moon object for her to absorb and power her up with moon stuff. And that’s another thing about the way this is shaping up: they are embracing the most dangerous parts of themselves, the parts that could kill them or turn them evil. That’s what each of them will have to grapple with (and why I’m thrilled it was Ashton who got the fire shard, because that puts them on a collision course with repeating the choices their father made, and really coming to terms with what being Hishari means. From a storytelling perspective, this is by far the cooler choice).

I have an idea that Laudna could literally absorb Delilah in a way that Delilah is no longer in control. Laudna becoming her own patron is the best possible end to cutting her puppet strings, and that would be a fascinating way to do it: stealing all the power and the last bit of essence of the woman who murdered her. There is something of a darkness there, with the end of a vengeance storyline, which will be juicy.

Fearne would have two options: doubling down on being Fey by obtaining something from another spelunk in the Feywild, or going to the hells and retrieving something infernal. I think the infernal route is likely the real Dark Fearne route, while the fey route likely puts her on the path to becoming Archfey, which could be a very interesting end for her character (and likely one Ashley would be intrigued by, to become the new Grandma Morri).

Chetney is likely going to delve either into something Catha-related (other moon, whoo!) or something nature-related. I think going white moon to Imogen’s red moon would be cool, and would really focus in on controlling his werewolf side.

FCG is likely going to have to go Aeorian. They could go divine, but I think Aeorian would be juicier. Delving into their past and the person they used to be before they lost their memories is something I’ve been excited for, and even though they’re already coming to the conclusion, realizing that what makes them themselves is their choices now, not a thousand years ago, will be very cool. We might even see a different side to FCG come out and be in conflict with his current self (something else I’m expecting in a lot of these storylines).

And finally there’s Orym, the little guy. He’s actually the hardest to define how to give a power-up to, because so much of his story is about not having that. All his friends are magical powerhouses, and he’s a little dude with a sword. So I actually am hoping that Orym either goes for another nature-based Wildmother powerup (making him the one with divine powers), or one of entirely humanity-based power, possibly by teaming up with someone like Percy, who was also never divine.

Anyway, this all may get proven wrong (and a lot of the finer details almost certainly will!), but this is sort of the trajectory I see in the next leg of their journey: getting their own legendary power-ups, but those power-ups forcing them to confront their past and the possible futures. And because they’re incorporating them into their very beings, those confrontations are both inevitable and necessary.

[theacecouple]

You all asked for more Dead Bedrooms, so Happy Holidays! You get more Dead Bedrooms.

You can also listen on Apple, Spotify, Our Website, or pretty much any podcast platform! Transcript below :)

Courtney: Hello everyone and welcome back. My name is Courtney, I am here with my spouse, Royce, and together we are The Ace Couple. And today we’ve got a little expedited treat for you all because, whoo boy, last week’s episode was– Uh, I wouldn’t say it was fun, but I assume at least some percentage of you got some amount of, perhaps, catharsis out of it. Perhaps we accidentally had a little bit of catharsis ourselves. But I don’t ever want to be that angry on microphone again, at least not directed at a specific person. I prefer to reserve my anger for systemic issues, for broad injustices, but I don’t ever want to be angry at one dude on microphone to that extent, ever again I’m not promising I never will be, because some dudes deserve it.

Courtney: But what that does mean for us today is that we are delving back into r/DeadBedrooms. So on this channel, once about every six months, we have been doing an r/AmItheAsshole: Asexuality Edition, and you all really, really love those. We know it, we hear it, we get your comments and your praises. But just– just a few weeks ago, we– we decided to jump into Dead Bedrooms for the very first time and you all absolutely loved it, and begged us for more. So here we are. It has not quite been six months, but I think we are gonna start putting Dead Bedrooms in our rotation and you’re getting one a little early. A little– a little holiday treat from us to you. Just don’t expect Reddit episodes to usually come this often. [sighs] So, what– What did we learn from the first time we dove into Dead Bedrooms? What was the takeaway? What was the point?

Royce: The point? I think the first part of that episode was laying out the pattern of a lot of the posts that we were seeing, [Courtney hums] which included–

Courtney: The lingo. [laughs]

Royce: Yes, the terms used, the fact that things like low libido and high libido were mentioned right in, along with gender identity and sexual orientation. And, of course, that the entire subreddit is dealing with relationship issues that revolve around a lack of sex or sexual fulfillment in a relationship.

Courtney: [hums in agreement] And a general pattern we saw was that not very favorable toward asexuality. Some posts were a little better than others, but the– the general vibe is not– not very accommodating of aces. And truly just a lot of ignorance about what asexuality actually is. I recall in our first episode actually prefacing things with, like, we in our community, we at our podcast, we as aces, know that things like asexuality and libido do not always go hand in hand, but it’s clear, by the way some of the folks here are talking about it, that when they say asexual they also mean low libido, they also mean probably sex averse in some way. So we’re going to, again, try to not nitpick language too much, because we have been down that road time and time again. If you’re a regular listener of ours, you know where we stand on that. So we’re gonna try to listen to what they mean as opposed to what they say, [breathy laugh] to the best of our ability.

Courtney: But before we get into some of our posts that we have that actually mention asexuality, there is one abbreviation that has just been bothering me ever since we did that first episode, and that is LL4u, or ‘low libido for you’. And this is something that folks use in this subreddit to say, “Oh, you know, my partner who is no longer having sex with me – and this is a major issue – isn’t low libido, just low libido for me.” I don’t even know how to articulate it, but there’s something about that just being a concept, that this is a shorthand that is known in this subreddit, in this community, that is used so often that just– it feels so wrong! There’s something fundamentally about it that my brain does not want to accept is a thing in the way that they are using it.

Royce: Well, at the very least, libido seems like the wrong word to use to describe what they’re trying to describe.

Courtney: It really does! Like perhaps there’s an amount of attraction here, like maybe– And this could be a thing where they are just across the board, consistently conflating libido with attraction. But if someone is low libido for you it’s like– I don’t think physiologically speaking…? And I don’t know, any– any high libido aces out there feel free to correct me, I am not that. I don’t have one, never have, never want one. I don’t think physiologically that your level of libido actually changes based on prospective sexual partners. At least that’s not the way I understand libido as a concept. Like you might not be attracted to individual people or you might have more attraction for one person versus another, or one gender versus another, like all the things that someone may or may not be attracted to, like there are factors at play here. But, like, chemically speaking, can your libido just plummet upon seeing a specific person? Does that happen that way? Please advise. [laughs]

Royce: That’s not how I define or use the term. Libido can change, it’s particularly one thing that’s cited as changing alongside hormonal changes.

Courtney: Sure.

Royce: But yeah, I see that as a much more chemical or biological thing than attraction. And oftentimes when libido comes up in the ace community, it is mentioned completely as an aside to the concept of attraction.

Courtney: Oh yeah, I know plenty of aces who are like, “I do have a libido, and honestly it’s frustrating because I’m not attracted to anyone. So what do I need this for?” [laughs] Or they’ll say you know, “I have a libido but I just don’t have a desire to sate that libido by involving another person. Like, masturbation is totally an acceptable option to me, 100% of the time.” Like there are aces like that out there, no doubt. But before we get into these posts, I had to google it assuming that I would– the first response would be from the subreddit and it was. But I genuinely just googled, “What is LL4u?” And I did. I found a post from about a year ago from a deleted user called “What is LL4u really?” And I was like, “Maybe this will give me insight.”

Courtney: But here’s what’s so interesting: they use a food metaphor – right? – in the post. The post is: [reading] “Is it really a case of getting sick of eating the same thing everyday. I mean I love Spaghetti Bolognese but if I had to have it every evening meal, it would probably lose some of its luster. Would it help some LL4u people if they had the occasional take out? Just a thought.” And here’s what’s so fascinating to me. We in the ace community, like we are the kings and the queens and the non-binary nobilities of food metaphors. We have taken “Cake is better than sex” and we ran with it. Cake is our biggest community symbol. Out there, the folks that don’t have as much of a sweet tooth have more recently adopted garlic bread. Like we use food so often, and we even use food as metaphors to explain things like sex neutrality. Like, “I don’t crave cake, I don’t want cake, but if someone put it in front of me I probably would even enjoy the cake. I’m just not gonna seek it out because I don’t have that desire, I don’t have that craving.” So we have so many ways that we have used food metaphors in our community. And so I see the food metaphor and I understand where it comes from in that sense.

Courtney: But the fascinating thing is, here, like, I don’t know if this is a cheating situation or if this is an agreed upon open relationship kind of a situation. Obviously one is more ethical than the other. But in my first several posts seeing this LL4u, it usually wasn’t about people who were cheaters or people who were thought to be or known to be cheaters. For the most part, it was just: you want to have sex with your partner and your partner no longer wants to have sex with you, and you’re trying to figure out what’s wrong, like have they lost their libido? Do they have a hormone issue? Are they asexual? And then a bunch of people in the comments would just be, “No, they’re probably just LL4u.” And it’s like, I kept seeing that as the justification for these reasons why a bedroom was now dead. And that LL4u is just grinding on me, because the implication was also that this bedroom hasn’t always been dead.

Courtney: At one point activities were happening. And if there’s some sort of drastic change, I don’t think your libido has only changed for that one person. So I’m struggling with the food metaphor here. But since it was posted, I wanted to see what some of the responses were and if people agreed with it, because I am clearly not a member of the Dead Bedrooms community, so I am trying to learn from those who are, and the first comment says: “That’s not logical thinking at all. I’m low libido because something about this partner relationship is killing my sex drive. So if I go sample a different partner, I’m going to learn that sex doesn’t have to be awful, boring, painful, entitled, and then I’m going back to the bad sex partner? That makes no sense.” So in this case, I still don’t think it’s low libido. I think you’re just not getting what you want, what you need, from this arrangement. But I don’t think that’s changing your libido.

Royce: The awful, boring, painful, entitled part is a whole bunch of red flags that there’s something else going on here.

Courtney: Well, especially the painful, entitled. Like, is this an abusive situation here? And you just haven’t found that word or connected that dot yet? Because from my understanding, sex should be neither of those things. Boring’s one I hear a lot. I don’t know what just awful sex is. I’m sure there are allos out there who could explain to me exactly what awful sex is. But if it’s not painful or entitled or boring like, what generally might make it awful? How’s that a different modifier than the others?

Courtney: Another comment says: “I think most people who are LL4u are in that phase because of other factors within the relationship, e.g. bad sex, loss of respect, poor emotional dynamic, loss of attraction etc.” Which still doesn’t sound like low libido to me, but does make more sense to me. One commenter said: “It’s often said that sex with the same person gets boring after a while and becomes routine. So the recommendation is to spice things up. However, if you have a partner who thinks anything other than plain vanilla is not acceptable, then things can only go downhill. Yes, I speak from experience.” That’s it– That’s another thing that just gets me so much about this subreddit was– Some of the previous posts that we saw and some of the previous comments that we saw there are just so many deeply hurt people here. [tentative laugh] And I don’t want to laugh at their actual hurt, I really do not. But at least some of the juicier, more heated posts definitely seem like just a lot of very sexually frustrated people expressing their frustration at each other.

Royce: Yeah, I definitely see a different vibe going back and forth between different threads. Some are just overtly hurt and angry, others are trying to have a more nuanced discussion. I was about to say I’m surprised at how many people who comment self identify as asexual, but here we are reading this as well, so.

Courtney: Yeah, I mean we had a poster in the last episode who is asexual and was posting for their own concerns. But here’s one that gets so much wilder when we consider what common ace theory is, or a common ace worldview. Because this poster says: “If you ask me, it means that your significant other is actually not romantically in love with you anymore. Plain and simple.” And someone challenged him a little bit, not in a mean way, but in, like, an asking a lot of questions kind of way, saying like, “Is sexual desire and romantic love one to one, synonymous to you?” Because that was my question too.

Courtney: Because we talk very often in the A-spec community about how romantic and sexual attraction are not always the same. They don’t always line up. And I so rarely see allosexual people acknowledge that, or believe that that is a possibility. In fact, there are a lot of allosexual, alloromantic people who have direct animosity at the very notion that they could be different. Especially in instances of, like, aromantic people who are allosexual. Like the stereotype for them is that, oh, they are just players, they are a fuckboy, they don’t respect the people they’re having sex with. And just horrible, awful stereotypes which, as long as everyone’s clear about what the nature of this relationship is and expectations have been set and there’s communication, there’s nothing wrong with that. But just the very possibility that you might have sex with someone you aren’t romantically attracted to is met with so much animosity. And this could be its own three hour episode, so I won’t get into it. We’ll save that for our split attraction model series that I’ve been saying for so long that we need to do, but we need to do it right.

Courtney: But the original commenter here specifies: “To be more specific, I believe someone can be LL – low libido – due to whatever reason, like asexuality, trauma, hormones etc.” I super don’t love that. Those three were the things that were all just, like, put together like that. [resumes reading] “But they can be low libido for any of those reasons and romantically in love with their significant other. But being low libido for you means that someone is sexually interested in general but not in their partner. And yes, to me that clearly proves that they are not romantically in love.” And it ends that thought with: “Because for someone who isn’t low libido in general, romantic love contains being sexually attracted to someone. It’s not synonymous, but one is the subset of the other.” So that’s kind of like saying for the most part, only asexual people have split attraction, or only people who are otherwise, you know, messed up. If you have a medical issue or trauma or you’re ace, then maybe your attraction can be split, but otherwise nah.

Royce: Yeah, the human condition is just more fluid than that. I think that in a lot of relationships, even ones that don’t get to the dead bedroom state, that romance and sexual activity or attraction will often fluctuate just as you go through life changes to some degree. How much content is there on allo relationships who are going through a slump for some period of time?

Courtney: I mean that’s basically the running joke in like every sitcom from the 90s or earlier, right? So yeah, I mean, I don’t know that one was just bothering me so much that I had to try to understand that one more. So I still reject the idea that this is literally about libido. But I at least think I have a little bit of a clear idea of “this is someone who has a libido but does not want to have sex with their partner, and maybe it’s their partner’s fault,” probably on a case to case basis there.

Royce: Okay, so this post is titled: “My fiance just realized he was asexual today.”

Courtney: Just today? Spontaneously?

Royce: I don’t know how spontaneously, but apparently the first thing to do after hearing of that is to make a post to dead bedrooms.

Courtney: Yikes. Yeah, if it was literally just today and you’ve now gone off to make a post here, I feel like…

Royce: We’ll see. I haven’t– I haven’t read this one, so I don’t know how much animosity is going to be in this post, but it is tagged ‘seeking advice’.

Courtney: Okay, I don’t know if this is the best place to get advice. I would strongly advise anybody who has a significant other who comes out as asexual to first have extensive conversations and do what you can to try to support them through that. But then maybe, maybe seek counsel from aces and not a community that is often hostile to them. But we’ll see. I will reserve judgment until we see what the post and responses are.

Royce: [reading] “Hi, I’m new, and I’m sorry if this isn’t coherent- my mind is a spinny blur, and I just feel small, helpless, and isolated. I (37f demisexual, high libido) had a conversation with my fiancé (42m very low libido)–”

Courtney: So this is a demi also. So at least knows some amount of the A-spectrum. Fascinating.

Royce: Most likely yes. [resumes reading] “– today about how sex has just not been working for me lately- and how I’d like to try to work through it together. We’ve been together for nine years, and aside from sexually, we are very happy and committed to each other.” That is a running theme on a lot of these posts: we are happy except for the sex part.

Courtney: And the sex part is emphasized so heavily that I fundamentally cannot understand it.

Royce: [keeps reading] “Own a house together, have shared friends and interests- the sticking point is sex.

Royce: Through the course of things he said “well, I just never have any interest in sex. So I don’t know what to do.” – That part was in quotes – “And I don’t know, the inflection of the way he said it just made me like, have an epiphany? So I asked if he meant never, as in literally never in his life, like an asexual person, or never as in, he’s been stressed and/or not confident in his body? And he gave me a blank face and said he didn’t know. He doesn’t know anything about asexual people. But he’s been waiting for sex to “click” and make sense this whole time.” Which– that is interesting, if they are just having this question and epiphany now, nine years into the relationship.

Courtney: And if she’s demisexual, and he’s saying he doesn’t know anything about asexuality, does he know she’s demi??

Royce: Let’s keep going. Op continues with: [resumes reading] “You guys. I’m communicative as anything. If he’s asexual, that is what it is, and we’ll try to figure out what that means. But like. How did he never make that– How did he never make clear that his low libido was absolute sexual disinterest? He loves cuddling and kissing- but nothing else really- and he’s known this the entire fucking time. I had no idea. Honestly I thought his low libido was caused by the medication he’s on. He’s acted quite convincingly that he enjoyed things. And I feel defrauded, and lied to.”

Royce: [still reading] “Here I was thinking that my life was pretty great- we just needed to get on the same page with our sexual preferences/kinks/desires- and agree on the level of frequency- and we’d be the happiest people we know. We’re going to keep talking about it, so hopefully it’s not actually a relationship ending thing, but my head hurts from crying. I feel rejected and robbed of the life I was led to believe I’d have. I’m confused and can’t talk to any friends about it yet because I don’t want to out him. I’m scared that I’m never going to get to enjoy my body with someone else without imploding my stable, secure, otherwise happy life. We’re supposed to be getting married in six months. Just, any help, please. Therapists or counselors online or in” – the area of the country that they’re in – “articles, other corners of Reddit where this would get guidance, tea and sympathy, anything. Thank you so much.”

Courtney: I gotta say I cringed at the defrauded word.

Royce: Yeah.

Courtney: Oh I– Ugh. We did our episode on marriage consummation laws, and fraud as a justifiable reason to annul a marriage and the precedence that asexuality could play into that... I don’t love that word. I really, really do not. I also feel like I need more information, because part of that, “I feel defrauded and cheated and lied to,” was like he seemed to be enjoying some of the things and it’s like, maybe he was?

Courtney: I don’t know, maybe he hasn’t been and that was explicitly stated, but maybe it was just because this was posted in such a haze of emotion and maybe it was just done very quickly and sloppily, but there are elements of this here where I’m like, yes, you are a demisexual person, but are you in community with a lot of other aces and demis?

Courtney: Because you, as the poster, seem to be either missing details or missing nuances of the orientation itself. And I don’t know, is it– Is it unfair to be like, how could he not know this? Why did it take him so long to realize this? Like– So, I personally have met people who did not come out as asexual until they were over 70 years old. Because they did not have the language for it. They met me, they saw me talk about asexuality, we developed a friendship, and then they confided in me that they are, in fact, asexual. And the things I was sharing were things they felt their entire life. But they– it was indistinguishable from, you know, heterosexual or homosexual, because they just didn’t know there was a word or an option for something other than those two.

Courtney: And so, like, is it really unfair, to be like, “I’ve been with this person for nine years. How did they not know?!” Because everyone’s on their own timeline, you know?

Royce: And a lot of times you have to get to a point where you see a very direct contradiction or comparison to something that you feel very personally and intimately, and it’s not that difficult to go a long time not – you know – encountering that information or having those conversations. The thing that stood out, in comparison to that, most to me was the OP mentioning how communicative they are. Because, yeah, they may talk a lot, but apparently they haven’t had this conversation, at least in extreme detail, until this point in their relationship, which can happen.

Courtney: It can. It’s– Was there anything in there? Did I just miss it? Was there anything that actually said that he does not want to have sex anymore? Because I feel like I didn’t get that. Did he actually say or imply that at any point? Because the way it’s posted, the way she’s talking, is like, “We were supposed to get married, but now my whole future, I’m grieving for it because it’s not going to be what I thought.” But they seem to, at least on occasion, be having sex now. So is he actually saying he wants to stop doing that? Or is this a situation where OP might actually be grieving the feeling of being desired as opposed to the actual act of sex? Because those are two different things in my experience.

Royce: I think that’s a reasonable impression. One quote from him was, “Well, I just never have any interest in sex, so I don’t know what to do,” which I think it’s reasonable to say that the implication of that is that he is not initiating anything. And she mentions that there have been times when he’s said or at least acted like he’s enjoyed things, and that they just aren’t on the same page about their preferences, kinks and desires, so. And the level of frequency is another one that’s brought up. She self-identifies as having a high libido, compared to his at the very least, which she says is very low, so it could be that the relationship that she wants isn’t one where she is having to initiate things. That’s possible, it’s not explicitly stated.

Courtney: Because that’s something that I know I have had in past relationships and other aces have had in past relationships. Where even if there’s a situation where an asexual person is in a mixed orientation relationship with an allo person, and the allosexual person does want sexual activities, and even if the ace is okay with that, to varying degrees – whether they’re sex favorable, sex neutral, whatever that is – there are some instances where that is still not enough for the allo person. Because I have seen allos react with outright hostility to aces, not because they won’t have sex with them, but because they don’t want sex with them or they don’t want it enough, or they don’t feel attracted, or they don’t feel– they don’t feel attractive, they don’t feel desired. And I really struggle to view that in any way other than some form of potentially insecurity. Potentially we can chalk it up to something else. But I genuinely do not think that if that is a tension in the relationship where sex can be negotiated, it can be enjoyed, but the allo person is upset that the ace isn’t actually attracted to them, the ace is not going to change. That is not something that can be changed.

Courtney: So if that is going to be an issue for the allo person, that is something that they need to work on. And they need to figure out why this is such an issue and why they feel this way, and if this is coming from insecurity, if it’s coming from any of these other things.

Courtney: I was a little caught off guard when OP here was like, “Oh, is it because of your body? Are you insecure?” It’s like– I don’t want to imply that in the situation I’m describing that all allos are, like, insecure in their own bodies, but I know from personal past relationships– I have had previous partners who are like, “Why aren’t you more attracted to me?” And it’s like, “I am literally as attracted to you as I could be to any other human that exists.” And they’re like, “But I want to be uniquely attractive to you!” And it’s like, you are! You’re the one I’m in a relationship with right now. I don’t know what more you want from me.

Royce: Yeah, I read that passage as OP just sort of grasping at straws to come up with a reason for their partner’s – what they describe as – low libido.

Courtney: Which is fascinating, because if OP did not self-identify as demisexual, if a like fully allo person was saying this, I would probably say that’s a little acephobic, like why are you trying to find the reason for this? Some people just are this way.

Royce: And I think that was coming– I think at that point, when she was going through this, she was operating under the assumption that her partner was allo, and this is where it clicked of “Wait, you mean like ever?” Like, this isn’t a temporal thing.

Courtney: Right, right. So yeah, I don’t know, this is interesting. This is why I have said before that I try not to be the advice giving type, especially like unsolicited advice. And clearly OP here is asking for advice. But I never feel comfortable giving advice unless it’s someone I know very well or I know their situation very, very well. And probably if there can be a conversation about it, because look at how many questions I am asking OP that I’m never going to get an answer to. Like, I would need to have a full on conversation with someone if they were seeking my counsel, because I need more information in order to give more information.

Royce: Well, look at how many conversations have come up for the two of them just now that I’ve prompted this post. It sounds like the two of them need to have a much more in depth conversation, but I was holding onto something. Let me go back to one of the last points that you made.

Royce: You were talking about an issue that comes up oftentimes in ace-allo relationships within the– The problem that arises from a need to feel desired or something of that nature. And I don’t think it is off-base in saying that that can often manifest in very significant feelings of insecurity. But I do think that there is also some amount of– If I use the word sexual orientation, I’m kind of stretching that term a little bit. I’m having trouble finding the right word, but the way that a person’s sexuality manifests – which would include their kinks and things like that – if someone is, you know, I guess, more submissively aligned and a big part of what they get out of sex is that feeling of being wanted or desired, that could be a big part of what sex is for them and it could represent an incompatibility of some kind. It’s something that could potentially be talked through, worked around, you could potentially find an angle for. But I could also see some people saying that like this is– this is something I actually need to feel satisfied in that area of my life.

Courtney: But what I want to know is how does one reconcile it with all of these posts? Because we’ve seen the pattern of like, “We are the happiest people in the world except for sex.” And it’s like–

Royce: I mean, I mean my knee jerk reaction is that that is an overstatement.

Courtney: [Thoughtful sound] So you’re just going to say that, huh? You’re just going to say what we’re all thinking, just– just like that. [laughs]

Royce: One of the things we’ve mentioned before is – that we see a lot in relationships – a lot of things get piled on to sex as the one thing that is going to make or break a relationship. And sometimes that is done in a way that I don’t think appropriately, like, summarizes the relationship as a whole. [Courtney agrees] Like, if you have so many things going on in your life that you don’t have time to spend with each other doing, like, meaningful activities, then sex becomes that activity. If you aren’t getting affection in other ways, then sex becomes the way that you’re getting affection. And it’s– A lot gets piled onto it, and that’s how you end up with, you know, entire industries of sex counseling as a form of relationship counseling, [Courtney agrees and laughs] when there might be other avenues to figuring out what’s going on.

Courtney: Yeah, I do think, just because what you were saying with sex sort of being the all-encompassing thing, that could also be a need that could theoretically be met another way. You mentioned affection, like well, if sex is the way you’re receiving that affection – and I know not every couple’s like this, this is definitely just a personal anecdote of mine – but like, I am incredibly romantic for someone who is actually identifying as demiromantic, on the on the aro spectrum. My gestures and gifts– I have always been a very, very romantic person. And I would put a lot of time and thought into– into these acts of romance. And I always wanted to make sure that my partner felt desired. And in fact you’ve made that very difficult for me, Royce, because you don’t like things. [laughs] I was like, “Let me get you gifts!” And you’re like, “No, absolutely not, I refuse.”

Courtney: But like in past relationships, like that was a thing I would do and then to, then, have a partner be like, “But I feel like you just don’t, you don’t desire me enough.” and it’s like– [sighs] I’m sorry it is not in– in the way that you want it, and I am sorry that this is all coming from an incredibly low self-esteem and a poor body image that you have of yourself, but I genuinely– I cannot develop sexual attraction for you. That is not how I am wired. It is not going to happen. So I fully understand that I’m reading this under my own lens there. But yeah, interesting post.

Courtney: But what are some of the comments? I guess also to your point of it being perhaps overstated that sex is our only issue. We’ve absolutely had friends in the past that would claim to have a really good relationship, really healthy, their relationship is almost perfect, but then we’d also get together to hang out and they’d talk about how they had a screaming match earlier in the day. And we were like, “Oh, that’s a thing you do?” [laughs]

Royce: Yeah, they just casually throw out something toxic, as if everyone does it.

Courtney: Yes! This is why we aren’t friends with straight people anymore. [laughs] I don’t think we have a single straight friend anymore. At least not a straight couple. We might have one or two individual straight people that are cool.

Royce: If, instead of saying straight, you say like heteronormative or non-queer.

Courtney: Yeah.

Royce: Like there might be people with gender identities that don’t fit into the binary who might still describe themselves as hetero, just out of habit or because they don’t have a better word.

Courtney: Right. We don’t have any non-queer couple friends anymore. [laughs] Because they do really just be out here throwing out very toxic things and being like, “We have a great marriage, we have a wonderful relationship.” And we’re like, “Mm?”

Royce: So the comments here. This post doesn’t have a ton of them. There are a few back and forth. Some are like: postpone the marriage, figure this out first. There’s one that was like: “Blessing in disguise. Don’t marry into a dead bedroom, go elsewhere.”

Courtney: No! Are you kidding me?!

Royce: There are a couple of posts being like, “You’re looking for other places. Go check out asexuality subreddits and see what you can learn there.”

Courtney: Yeah. Yes, I’m actually glad that that was a bit of advice that was pointed out. I’m pleasantly surprised. Less so with the blessing in disguise. Give me a break! That is what I have come to expect from this subreddit, though.

Royce: And from what I can tell, OP seems to be going through and responding to a lot of posts and just trying to take it all in. She does say at one point, “Someone mentions that it sounds like he genuinely didn’t know and could be just in the questioning phase of understanding himself.”

Courtney: That’s what I was wondering, like, was it mean to be like, “How did he not know?”

Royce: And she does say, “I agree that’s the best outlook to take right now. And yes, he’s been doing a lot of introspection in the last year or so. He’s just not terribly fluent or practiced in doing so yet.”

Courtney: Yeah, like I said before, we’re all on our own timelines. I hope they’re doing okay. We need a– We need a “Where are they now?” for Reddit posts.

Royce: This post was three months ago, by the way.

Courtney: Oh man, so we’re one month to the wedding, unless it got postponed?

Royce: Halfway there, it was six months out.

Courtney: Six months. Okay, I don’t know why I had four in my head.

Courtney: So this one. We gave up on r/AreTheStraightsOkay, because there were so many just like very visual memes that were just not good for a podcast format. But I did find one post on Dead Bedrooms. That was just a meme, but some of the comments just absolutely have me face-palming.

Courtney: It’s entitled, “Sex really isn’t that important in a relationship,” and it’s a picture of a couple – I don’t know what this is from – appears to be a man and a woman. The woman is saying, “Sex really isn’t that important in a relationship, to be honest.” And then a close-up of the man’s face, and the commentary is: “I’ve never seen a bigger cry for help in a man’s eyes.” And we’ll have a link to this in the show notes if you want to actually see what the picture is. But oh, my word. Some of the comments: [exaggerated voice] “But suddenly becomes the most important thing in life the moment that guy sleeps with anyone else!” And the same person said, “Sex is like money. Money is not everything, not having money is. Same with sex. Sex is not everything, not having it is.” As someone who is a no libido, borderline sex-repulsed asexual who has been in severe poverty for large swaths of my life, and no longer is: absolutely fuck that analogy.

Courtney: Then we had a really unfortunate sort of just conversation back and forth in the comments where someone says, “But it’s true… if you are asexual, I guess.” And someone comes in and tries to do the Ace 101 kind of a thing. Saying like, “This is actually a common misconception. There are asexual people who have sexual desires. There are also sexual people without sexual desires. Asexual people find no one hot. If you’re wondering why a person would have sex with someone they don’t find hot, most people who have sex with their hand don’t find their hand hot.” And some– some– some jerk was pulling quotes like, “There are asexual people who have sexual desires,” saying, “By definition not asexual.” Which isn’t true, we know that. But someone comes in and tries to say, “Asexuality is considered to be a sexuality wherein one doesn’t experience sexual attraction. Asexual people can get horny and enjoy sex, but they won’t be sexually attracted to their partners or be turned on by their bodies, pleasing them etc.” And then people just argue about language, because then that poster who came in with the ace spiel says, “I try not to use sexual attraction because so many people think sexual attraction equals want to have sex with.” And a few people are like, “Well, that– that’s less good language, that that is more confusing.” And the final say is that poster saying, “Asexual people do not find people hot. Sexual people do find people hot. It’s not about whether or not they want to have sex.”

Courtney: And I have been getting increasingly more frustrated with that definition and delineation. Just because – for as much as like we’re giving grace even in this episode, saying, you know, for some people, like, this is a manifestation of their sexuality, this is something that is important for those people, I understand that not all aces have the same experience I do, and I give space for that – but not having a libido, not wanting to engage in sexual activity, that actually is a fundamental component of the way my asexuality manifests. And I’m not going to say that people in different areas of the a-spectrum are less ace than me. I’m not going to say they’re not asexual because I don’t believe those things. But there is such a hard line push – especially as of the last, like, six years I think I’ve really, really seen it ramp up – where it’s all about attraction, not action. It’s just attraction, not action. And that’s something I hear and see all the time. Every single day. And a lot of sex favorable aces will say, “Well, we have to use this language because otherwise you’re invalidating my asexuality.” And it’s like you’re kind of now invalidating my asexuality because this is a fundamental way that mine manifests. And if I’m giving space for your area of the spectrum, can you please also give space for my area?

Royce: I think people are just going to have to accept that there isn’t going to be one simple, like, singular sentence definition of asexuality–

Courtney: No.

Royce: That just encompasses the entire A-ace spectrum. Because I’ve been thinking about this and I am not aware of any other orientation that has, for example, the depth of micro labels that asexuality has, and– or, you know, broader a-spec I should say. I use those two terms interchangeably a lot. I know not everyone does that.

Courtney: Well, we’ll talk about this in a future episode. But the fact that ace no longer means ace and aro people is fascinating to me. Because a lot of people, when we originally started using the shorthand for ace, it was like the full ace community, because we didn’t want to just be saying asexual the whole time. So it was like A is being shortened to ace for both ace and aro. And now a lot of people have completely forgotten that that is how a lot of people used to use it. And now people are saying a-spec for the a-spectrum, for ace and aro spectrums, and to me that is so much clunkier than saying ace.

Royce: It is- That’s–

Courtney: So sometimes I’ll still say ace, just because that’s the language that I came up into this community in, to mean both. And now people say, like, “If you’re saying ace but you mean a-spec, that’s erasing aros.” And it’s like my language originally did accommodate aros and we just forgot about that!

Royce: Yeah, in personal life, off the microphone, I never say a-spec. Pretty much I say ace to mean ace-spec. Because ace-spec is a clumsy, two syllable word that’s harder for me to say.

Courtney: Yes.

Royce: But what I was getting to was when I look at all sexual orientations – straight, gay, bi, pan – they’re all very well-defined and have a lot of community and a lot of history. And of course, ace people have been here forever but it’s been so hard to connect, because you have to have a lot of very open, vulnerable, personal conversations. So I feel like the ace community is fairly young because it kind of relied on something like the internet to bring enough people together to have these conversations. But what happened is you found all of these different, varied experiences that aren’t gay, straight, bi, pan, and sometimes they are vastly different experiences.

Courtney: [Agrees]. Yeah, we– You know, in addition to our split attraction model series that we’ve been planning, we want a series of just episodes on language, [laughs] because we’ve got a lot of thoughts on language. Because, at the end of the day, really what I care about the most is that the people I’m communicating with can understand me, and so, to a certain extent, if you’re speaking to an individual person, your language is going to change and there are complicated nuances with that. Sometimes it’s something like code switching. Sometimes in a neurodivergent lens, that’s something like masking. But sometimes it’s genuinely just: we come from two very different places, what is the lowest common denominator for the language that we can use and still understand at least the most important elements of what we’re trying to convey to one another?

Courtney: And so, like, honestly, yeah, with a-spec, the thing is, I have started occasionally using that – either on microphone or sometimes in tweets and things – and that is just because that seems to be the direction that our individual community is saying. But I will only say that word if I’m addressing the community. If I’m trying to address a larger audience, or allo people, or non-a-spec people, I won’t use the phrase a-spec. Because they don’t know it. They do not.

Royce: Okay, I think this will be the last one for today. This one is simply titled “Broke Up With my Asexual Girlfriend.”

Courtney: Oh boy.

Royce: And it reads: “I loved her a lot. I really did. I felt like she was perfect for me in every way.” Going back to that…

Courtney: Except… sex!

Royce: [resumes reading] “Except one. [Courtney laughs] She was asexual. We dated for a little over four months. In that time I fell for her, hard. But two months into the relationship she admitted that she thinks she might be asexual as she finds the idea of sex and kissing to be repulsive. I tried to make it work for the remaining two months but I was slowly starting to resent her more and more, and I knew it would never stop. I really wanted it to work. But I’m a man with needs [Courtney hums disapprovingly] that she wasn’t capable of fulfilling, and I didn’t want to guilt or force her into doing something she didn’t want to do.

Royce: I broke up with her earlier today. I’m pretty sad about the whole thing but I know it was the right thing for both of us. Reading some of the posts here acted as the final nail in the metaphorical coffin for me. I didn’t want to end up like the unfortunate souls on this subreddit.”

Courtney: Oh no!

Royce: [keeps reading] “I thought I could do without sex, but I never really realized how damn important it was to be sexually desired in a relationship until recently.”

Courtney: Mmh… There’s that word again.

Royce: Yep. [continues reading] “It’s so goddamn important. I stopped working out in part because – quote – “what’s the point if the one person that’s allowed to see it doesn’t care?“.”

Courtney: Oh boy.

Royce: [keeps reading] “I did my first day back today and it felt good.” – I assumed that is at the gym – “II’m ready to clean myself back up and jump back into the dating game and put myself out there and find somebody new. I just want to say I don’t resent her for any of this. She was a really kind-hearted person and I wish her the best, we were just fundamentally incompatible at the end of the day and it never would have worked. I wish her the best and hope she finds happiness.”

Royce: So that was a collection of a few things we’ve talked about. One thing I wanted to mention that I’ve just always been aware of, and never really understood, is the “I’m going to exercise or diet purely to date.”

Courtney: Yeah!

Royce: Not for myself.

Courtney: Not for health.

Royce: I’m just going to do that to try to find someone during that dating phase.

Courtney: Yeah. I also– because he’s also saying like, “Man, my first day back at the gym and it felt good.”

Royce: Yes.

Courtney: Like if you like exercising, why did you stop? Liking exercise is a gift. Exercise sucks! [laughs] No, I’m with you on that. I don’t understand that. Just the loaded language in that post, though. Like, “I didn’t want to end up like the unfortunate souls here.” It sounds so melodramatic.

Royce: Yeah. As a post that was just, “Hey, here’s what happened,” and not asking for advice or anything, it’s also interesting that this person made a decision because apparently they were lurking on Dead Bedrooms.

Courtney: I don’t think I like that either. Because, like, it wasn’t that long of a relationship, so it’s not like, you know, there was a level of commitment that’s like years into this relationship, or a marriage, or a betrothment. So like, it was still technically early stages, that’s fine. But I genuinely– Like, you made a decision to break up with someone that you yourself are saying you really care about, because of what you are reading strangers say on the internet? And not out of conversations with that partner? I don’t know, that’s– Just the very concept of that is something I don’t understand.

Royce: Yeah, I don’t know what conversations they had in the relationship. Reading through some comments and seeing OP comment on a couple of things, they didn’t give their ages but they did imply that they were pretty young, and it had only been together for four months. So if they had a conversation and kind of outlined what they want or are looking for in a relationship, it seems perfectly reasonable for them both to be like, “Okay, this isn’t it,” and go on. Kind of a thing.

Courtney: Right. But, man… “The final nail in the coffin was reading about all you poor souls on this subreddit.” [laughs]

Royce: There is a comment that just says, “I’m glad that this graveyard of dead relationships saved one more soul.”

Courtney: No! That’s terrible! [emphatically] Graveyard of dead relationships.

Royce: Yeah, that was an old post. That one was actually– That one was five years ago. But it was very dense in a lot of the language that we’ve been talking about or seeing throughout.

Courtney: Well, I wish the best for his asexual ex-girlfriend. May he remember her fondly as the one who got away. [laughs] She’s probably too good for him. [laughs] I am just headcanoning this asexual girlfriend as, you know, the most gorgeous, beautiful person inside and out. That’s nonsense and I know it.

Courtney: You know, last time we did a Dead Bedrooms episode, we were talking to our friend Satan and they had a brilliant idea about what would be a better Dead Bedrooms concept than people in relationships who don’t have enough sex anymore. The concept they put forth was untouched photographs of the bedroom of people who died, like just how they died. This is what their bedroom looked like when they died. And I think that’s fascinating. I think it is a subversion of amatonormativity. I think it’s provocative, it’s enriching, it’s conceptually brilliant. I want someone to take this on as a project. I want this to be a coffee table book that we can put on our coffee table that is just pages of literal dead bedrooms. And then you can just pour over them for hours, fantasizing and wondering about the lives of these poor deceased souls. [emphatically] Who were they? What kind of life did they live? What will my bedroom look like when I inevitably die?

Royce: How many of them died before getting the chance to clean up their bedrooms before the photos were taken?

Courtney: Exactly! That’s the fascinating part! You can learn so much about a person. Was their bedroom spotless? Was it messy, as if they weren’t expecting visitors? Was it covered in medical supplies because they were aware that the death was imminent? There are so many possibilities. How old were they? How did they decorate? Did they die away from the home? Was their bed made? Did they die in the bed? The possibilities, they are endless. I am so much more intrigued by this concept of a dead bedroom than I am people griping about not having enough sex.

Courtney: So if any brilliant ace photographers out there– I myself am an artist, I am a professional, award-winning artist, if we’re being technical here, but I’m not a photographer. Taking photographs tends to irritate me. At least if it’s for social media. I gave up on Instagram a long time ago because – ugh – “I made a thing, now I have to take a picture of it to put on Instagram.” I hated it! Absolutely hated it. So if there are any already renowned ace photographers out there who are interested in making this dream come to fruition, do reach out. Let’s make it happen. But until then, thank you all so very much for being here. And we will talk to you all next time. Goodbye.

[sunflower-emoji]

Hi hi! I wanna know who you think my Friend, Fiancé, Foe is from BNHA. And no saying Hanta for my fiancé lmao that would make it too easy

Whoo boy, sorry that this took longer than expected! I got stuck on the foe part and then life Circumstances, but at last I've got answers for ya:

Friend: Jirou

You both have very cool vibes and I think she'd make excellent company to chill and smoke with

She also knows all the coolest venues if you'd rather go out and she's got that perfect mix of dependable without being a buzzkill

Ride-or-die kind of bestie; super caring but won't bullshit you

Fiance: Shinso

Like Sero, he's a huge tease and snark is his love language, so I think he'd be a good match for you!

I see lots of evenings curled up on the couch playing video games together

I was also considering Kirishima, but that felt too easy again because I think everyone agrees he's extremely husband material lol

Foe: Iida

I think on the whole the BNHA cast is immensely likeable (with obvious exceptions lmaooo) so it was hard picking someone that didn't feel like I a cop out!

I landed on Iida because I think his extremely rigid law-based morality would clash with you and your ideals

He's on the path to eventually grow out of it and be more chill, but for now his personality would be extremely irritating in an actual life setting lol

Original post

[highfiveheroes]

hiiiiiiiiiiiiiii so I absolutely love your fic on ao3 (so excited for part 2) and I wanted to ask what your opinions on the finale were! I personally think that the rat grinders were deeply robbed and that it was honestly such a unkind and mean way to end that season. like was the overarching theme not redemption and that unrestrained violence isn't the answer? anyway ye would love to hear your thoughts on it

(sorry if you've already made posts about it also, feel free to ignore this if so)

ahhh!!! oh man i have SO many thoughts on it, and i’ve kind of tried to keep them to dms and stuff but whoo boy. whoooo boy!!!

this got SO much longer than i expected so sorry in advance

i have sort of hit the point of reflection where i’m just sad about it now. sophomore year was SUCH a lovely piece of art, and the choices and lessons made and gained were something that resonated so deeply. i’ll start by saying that yeah, it’s fairly obvious the second half of the season was rushed through production, and specifically after “baron’s game” (which i expected to love but i can get into on a different post) the tone completely shifted.

the point i’ve finally come to is that brennan had a LOT of ideas for this season, but ultimately it went the way it did because he wasn’t dming the season for the fans. he was doing it for his friends, and they all had fun, and if the topics had been changed or certain plot points had been altered or different it wouldn’t have seemed so flippant and disappointing when the overarching themes got missed. from a meta standpoint (and also taking into account the interview he did that came out within the past few days discussing the season) it was never supposed to be that serious, so egg on our faces for reading into things that weren’t supposed to be there.

the season specifically suffered because it had so much stuffed into it, in my opinion? plots and threads were dropped early on in favor of following the bits—and for a dnd show run by comedians, i’m sure it was really fun for everyone involved! but i could tell after a certain point that discussions were overloading and way more stuff was getting missed than being followed up on, so i think brennan got caught up in trying to tie the story up neatly for his friends, and i think some of the plot may have changed from what it was first envisioned to be (though that may just be me being waaaaay too hopeful)

it is, however, WHOLLY disappointing to me that the bad kids were so rewarded for being literal bullies all season except to each other. it was in the name of bits, sure, but god, i would have loved for the solution to have been for them to reach out to the rat grinders in that final fight with something—a dispel magic maybe, or a really strong persuasion check, to prove that rage isn’t always the fucking answer, especially when faced with something like this. but that was never how it was going to go and i’m less mad now than just straight up sad about it. the rat grinders were just npcs made to be annoyances and obstacles and threads to follow, and we definitely as a collective tried to have more faith in the story. it’s just…i mean, it’s a dnd game. he’s running it for his friends, he’s lucky to get paid for it, it wasn’t about us reading the whole narrative like a book.

if the whole season had been scripted and unrushed—if it had been an actual series, for example—i think we would have gotten a lovely ending that satisfied almost everyone. but we got the fun ending for the players and at least half the fandom had an amazing time (maybe more—i definitely am at fault for only really following the rat grinder fans, lbr, but i don’t feel like having to curb my feelings about them every time i see a new post about how they deserved it).

i think for me, the ending was kind of rushed and filled with cheap cop outs, but i don’t think it was meant to be any more than that. it was supposed to be fun for the players, and it was, and that’s what they were happy with. i’ve really had to think about it a LOT this week though

(side note: as i’ve been working on part 2 and the prequel for it, i’m having to take the canon as milestones but not necessarily as fact, because there was so much unexplored there that i need to make sense when i’m writing it, but i fully disagree with just completely dismissing the implications. kipperlilly’s whole arc and her choosing this path wasn’t something i predicted, but it doesn’t necessarily go against what i wrote—it’s just that now, with context and reflection, i’m really having to sit down and explore her not as a many faceted character but instead as something that can still appear one dimensional. i’m not going to completely ignore the nuances, but i’m having a difficult time writing it, knowing now where the story is going to end up.)

(and fun fact, if you’ve read this far—it’s going to end up three parts instead of two, so publishing may be pushed off a bit longer than i wanted for the sole fact of wanting to put out parts 2&3 out at the same time. the prequel i’m gonna put on the back burner for a bit though :( so if you think part 2 is going to be good, i can’t wait for the reaction to part 3, if it goes the way i want!!!)

[tobiasdrake]

I'm going to be Queen of the Arena and nobody can stop me.

Yeah, do you have anything more threatening than those dumb crabs? I've killed so many of those already.

To be fair, I don't know what I expected from a merchant port. This isn't exactly a warrior academy or anything.

You shouldn't bounce bombs. That's a great way to blow yourself up. Who's naming these teams?

He's a Gulgul, so I guess the others are the Goofs? That's... a way to describe bringing zombies into a populated city, sure. Hopefully the next league will be tougher.

Sure, I can sit out. I am no longer excited about the Arena. You two have fun.

And this time it'll be my turn to cheer for you, Serai. Knock 'em dead.

Nah, you'll do great. Just think of it as a practice exercise. An extremely easy practice exercise.

He's like me but the other one! Whoo! And also there is a robot that nobody is going to even acknowledge, and honestly she'd prefer it that way anyhow.

Even now, Serai just can't escape the trappings of piracy. It haunts her.

Oh, you guys made mistakes. You're fighting a golem and a skeleton robot. This is a bad situation for a party hyper-specialized on slashing damage.

Have fun stabbing Zale, though.

Wait what

OH FUCKING

NOW I FEEL ROBBED

Dammit, I want to fight the giant monster clock horror. *pout* Zale gets to do all of the cool shit.

Beat the Watchmaker's ass in Wheels, though. Guess that will have to be good enough.

Our unholy abomination of magic and science literally eats hers for breakfast, though.

I'm glad you're having fun, B'st.

I'd be coming whether you wanted me or not. I'm not missing out on another chance to fight something like Clockwork Abomination. I'm still pissed off. You guys got to have all that fun and all I got were the Clawless Crab Crew.

Now, let's get to it. I can't wait to see what they've--

*deep breath*

Just. Deal with it, Valere. I'm sure the champion is going to be cool.

...and now we're fighting D&D nerds. A poorly balanced team of D&D nerds that don't know how to properly party build, as that one heckler pointed out.

Is it Valtraid? I kinda want it to be Valtraid. Do we get to fight Valtraid and his giant symbiote strength!?

...damn. Who or what is Sylgain?

I guess it's just... this guy. Okay.

Little disappointed after the surprise bomb that was Watchmaker participating in the tournament. I'm sure Sylgain must be tough; He is the Gold Star champion. But. Definitely some "I guess this is happening" energy going on right now.

Oh, there's more. Sweet. This was pretty underwhelming so an ultimate ultimate champion might be fun.

*fingers crossed* Valtraid, Valtraid, Valtraid...

[capnhanbers]

Yay new chapter!!! I really like this one too, especially the flowey part. Love that duo of babysitter awkwardness! Honestly can't wait to see what's in store for the next chapter, cus whoo boy. I feel something is cooking there haha. In relation to The Hustle Never Stops, I actually did take a break as you said haha. Working on short stories before I go back to it. BUT! I hope you enjoyed the chapter, and the cliffhanger that ended with it. That last scene put a massive whoozy in me. The whole thing took longer than I expected. Hope you have a great and FANTASTIC SPECTACULAR AMAZING SUPERB DAY!!!! Congrats on getting that chapter done, and the many more!!! Keep going at your own pace, you're getting closer and closer to what you want to achieve!

something is always cooking in!

Mod's Kitchen!!!!! Nightmare!!!!

YES breaks are good gotta refuel the tanks!! i haven't read it yet, i got really busy right when it came out and lost time/energy to read, but as soon as i do i'm gonna leave a gushing comment, mark my words 👍 and THANK YOUUU we're fucking! gettin there!

[gamesimp]

Mr American Pie- A Mafia 3 Fanfiction (Donovan X Reader) (Part 3)

The plot is here in the first chapter:

Warnings: gay, racism, homophobia, vulgar language, cringe maybe...

  I woke up to Donovan doing his calisthenics. I slowly crept down into the basement trying not to disturb him. I watched him following the movements shown on the projector.

  "I know you're watching me, what do you need (M/n)?"

I was shocked to find out how sharp his senses were, I've never crept on someone so quietly and got noticed.

"Uhh, so... Last night Lincoln told me that you should go by 9:30 its already 9:25..."

"Oh thanks for reminding me!"

He got changed and left. But I looked outside the window. I saw him marching back towards the house in frustration. The door swung open.

"Hey, my car aint working, i guess that brand new car of yours is better?"

"I guess."

I took the keys and unlocked the car. We both got inside and I inserted the keys.

"Youre not a bad driver are you?"

"Im not, im just asian!"

I said jokingly and quite seriously...

I accidentally switched it to drive but the car kept cranking as I tried to switch it to reverse.

I slowly pulled out of the driveway and nearly got hit by a Garbage Truck. But despite that, with my quick reflexes, I managed to stop the car quickly.

"FUCK! Calm down! Stupid trucker!"

I drove down the neighborhood and missed a stop sign. I nearly got hit by another driver but I simply avoided it. When we got to the highway. Some grandma was driving too slow so I overtook her on the wrong side.

"Hey! You can't cross a solid line!"

Donovan said clinging to his seat.

"Oh right, were no longer in Vietnam! Haha!"

I chuckled as I avoided getting into a head on collision with an oil tanker cutting off the car I overtook. I stopped at a grocery store somewhere along the bayou.

"stay right here John."

I said as if I'm not about to do anything stupid.

"I know you're gonna rob that place!"

Despite what Donovan said I went on to rob the shop. I shoved the bags of money in the back and got back into the car. I took my mask off and floored it.

"Damn! That was quick!"

Donovan reacted quite amazed.

"I used to rob shops in Saigon with my brother!"

While I was. Driving, I was surprised that the cops arrived earlier than expected.

"Ugh, lets turn on the radio just to... Lighten the mood!"

I turned the dial and It was playing "Born To Be Wild" by Steppenwolf. I immediately floored it and managed to outmanoeuvre cops.

"damn!, I never knew you could drive this good! You seemed to have terrible driving skills a second ago!"

Donovan says as I drive along the road. The cop performed a pit maneuver making the car spin 180 degrees but I managed to get the car in reverse. I saluted the officers before spinning the car another 180 degrees and shifting it back to 3rd gear.

I soon lost the cops by jumping the car across a broken bridge. Causing the officers to slam on the brakes causing them to come to an abrupt halt.

"whoo! Thats was intense, Wait... Am I late?"

He checked the time and there was still 5 minutes left as I pulled into the place where he and Lincoln would meet. We both stepped out of the car.

"That, was fucking, amazing!"

Donovan said as he walked up to me and put his arm around my back. I gasped in shock.

"Why, you don't like being touched?"

Donovan asked for a response to my reaction.

I simply giggled.

"Nah that's fine!"

I replied in a jokingly gruff tone.

We walked down the muddy trail. The humid air surrounding us and the stench of the bayou constantly attacking our nostrils. As I walked alongside Donovan I pretended I didn't care but I kinda like how he puts his arm around my back. soon we reached Lincoln.

"Heyyy!!! Lincoln!"

Donovan said as he let go of me and ran towards Lincoln to talk to him. After a while Lincoln decided to talk to me.

"Hey, how's life been going for you?"

Lincoln asked me in that friendly tone. We had a pretty long conversation before Lincoln got into business by getting intel from Donovan and how to stop the other gangs from coming into Louisiana. Lincoln kinda missed me cause he was kinda busy taking Marcano down and I didn't move to New Bordeaux until summer of 71'.

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

S4 Wrapped! Transcript

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen the show several times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian. So for today's episode, we will be discussing Season 4 in general. This is gonna be our Season 4 ender, and some Season 5 expectations as well. So for today's episode, we actually have our very first guest in the podcast. [C: Whoo! [claps]] This is Manika from I've Been Meaning to Watch That. Manika, would you like to introduce yourself to everyone?

M: Yes, I would. Hi, everybody. My name is Manika. Like Grey said, I am from the I've Been Meaning to Watch That podcast. It's a podcast that I created and I host every other week. Well, every single week I have a new guest, new topic, and we talk about, you know, all things under the sun. My newest episode is gonna be about Mean Girls, where we talk about the 2004 film, the 2015 musical, and then the newest musical, and we do like, a breakdown of it.

C: Yeah. Aren't there actually lesbians in the new one? I've heard that are actual lesbians in it. [G: Hell yeah.]

M: Yes. Yes. Janice is confirmed queer. We love to see it. And Renee Rapp loves to talk about how Regina George, to her, is gay, and I support it, so, you know, there's that. And I think the week before that, we did an episode about Yellowjackets and The Wilds. So there's a lot for you guys to listen to. Feel free to check us out wherever you get your podcasts

C: I've watched Yellowjackets. I haven't watched The Wilds. But anyway, yeah.

M: It's a good show. It's interesting.

G: Okay. So before we actually start our usual Season 4- season ender format, I want to ask you first, like, what is your background as a Supernatural watcher?

M: So I started watching Supernatural when I was fairly young. To be perfectly honest, I used to catch episodes of Supernatural just randomly on the WB back when it was the WB. And then I started watching like, reruns on TNT. And I didn't really know that much about the show, and it wasn't until my family got Internet, when I was 13 years old, like, Internet and cable, that I was able to like, fully start watching the show. Like, I started watching from beginning to, you know, the current season that was running, and I think it was Season 8. So from there, I would watch every single- I watched the seasons live as they happened on the CW, or I'd watch on cw.com, [C laughs] and suffer through their three-minute commercials, which I feel like are longer than the commercials on TV. But I would, you know, watch the current season, then it ends, I go back to the beginning on Netflix and watch all the way through. And, you know, Netflix only puts a new season of Supernatural, like, a month before the new season airs on the CW. Yeah. And that's- I mean, that's really my experience with Supernatural. And also, I was a Tumblr girl, so I was already deep in it. And then, when a certain somebody, you know, was fridged in Season 10 of Supernatural, that's when I stopped watching it, and then they brought the nephilim in Season 13, and then I was like, "You know what? Let me give it a chance again." And they announced it was ending Season 15, so it's like, "It's time for a rewatch." And so I am kind of a Supernatural expert, but, you know, maybe on an intermediate level. I know a lot of Supernatural, I would say.

C: Yeah, I don't even know who got fridged in Season 10, so. [laughs]

G: You should! It's our favorite-

C: Hey! I'm supposed to only know about this from social media. Don't tell me! [G laughs]

G: But this is like, a thing. It's surprising that you don't know about it. I think if I told you, you'd be like, "Oh, okay." I think you just don't recall the specific season that it happened, but you know it happened for sure. [M laughs] [M: Right.]

So that's very interesting, actually. So like, you watched it the way most people who are just casual watchers watch it also, like, just on the TV, before you got really into it. [M: Yeah. Yeah.] Did you have like, incredibly different perspectives on the characters and everything before you watched it like, fully? When you were just watching it, like, on the telly?

M: When I was watching it just casually, I just felt like, "Oh, these are two brothers, and they're hunting monsters," and I thought of it as like, a supernatural procedural. [G: Yes.] 'Cause I was already acquainted with- I'd already watched like, Charmed, and before that, I've watched, like, Smallville, so Supernatural is just another one of those shows that came on TV, but I didn't really know about it, but it was the only show that really drew my interest, just because it had such a strong fanbase on Tumblr. So watching it casually was like, "Oh, it's a TV show! I watch it the same way I watch Bones. Like, I'm not gonna watch it in order. I'm just gonna watch it when it was on TV." But then, when I started watching it like, seriously, sat down watching it, I was like, "There's a lot of lore behind this," and I feel like that really sucked me in.

G: I'm not sure if actually, I was watching it on Filipino television with the Tagalog dub, like, before I started watching the show actually, or if I caught it sometimes before that also. But  the experience of catching a show on television is truly a different experience than like, you know, watching it intentionally. So it is like, fascinating when people are like, "Oh, and I started watching Supernatural, like, just catching it on the television." I want to ask specifically about Season 4. I think the last time we spoke to each other, you mentioned that you love Season 4. Like, it really is your favorite season.

M: I do. I would say Season 4, in my eyes, is like, one of the best seasons in Supernatural. I would say, like, the season that I kind of hold dear to me is Season 3, but that's kind of short, and it's also like- Season 3 of Supernatural is like Season 4 of Community. You know what I mean? It's like, the gas leak season. Like, every single episode, is like, not throwaway, but it's very meta, and it's very goofy. And even though it kind of sets you up for Season 4, it doesn't really like- it goes deep into like, the whole, like, Heaven and Hell thing, but not too deep, and Season 4 is really when, like, everything gets nailed down. Like, you learn the lore, you get introduced to angels, you introduce the Apocalypse, you introduce God, and, like, Michael, and all these things. And Sam and Dean realize that they go from being hunters to being instruments of God, and the thing that they did out of obligation becomes something they do as their destiny, and they have to, you know, come to terms with whether or not they're going to fulfill this destiny, or they have to come to terms with the fact that they don't do it and something worse happens, you know. [G: Yeah.] So that's why I like Season 4. Because it raises the stakes.

G: Yeah. I think I've said this prior, but I do tend to see Seasons 1-3 as the prequel of the show [laughs], and Season 4 is when it really starts. [M: Yeah.] Like, it really begins. And I have a lot of times in Season 4 where I did think, like, "We're in Supernatural now." Like, "This is Supernatural now." Especially, I think, because of the introduction of Cas, because, you know, I'm very, very- I love Cas so much that like, to me, a lot of Supernatural is just Castiel. And so like, now that he's here, it's like, "Oh my god, we're actually watching Supernatural now!" But yeah, you're right. It is a completely different vibe from Season 1, 2, and 3.

C: 'Cause your main takeaway from Supernatural is that it's about free will, and, like, the main characters are Team Free Will by the end, but like, that's only possible because there's a Heaven [G: Yes.] and because Heaven introduces the idea of fate in a way that the demons and Hell just like, does not. So, yeah, no, this is like, when Supernatural becomes Supernatural. Do you think it was like, a bummer for people who liked it before, though?

G: Oh, I'm sure for some people.

C: Like, the show has completely changed what its point is.

G: I mean, there's like, a lot of reviews, right, that we read where it's like, "Oh, the angel/demon blah blah blah is so boring."

C: Yeah, like, "Can't wait 'til this is over and we can get back to Supernatural!" [G laughs] [G: And it's never over.] [laughs] Like, oh, buddy. Yeah.

I mean, I'm curious about your Casgirl/Deangirl/Samgirl alignment, Manika. [G: Yeah.]

M: Casgirl/Deangirl/Samgirl alignment?

C: Like, [overlapping with G] which one's your favorite?

M: I would have to say like, I was a Samgirl for a long time, like, when I was younger. [G: Hell yeah!] [C: Good.] But now I'm like, a strong Casgirl, [C: Also good.] because they just kept playing in my guy's face.

G: So true! But do you or do you not have strong feelings regarding Dean in both of the positive and the negative?

M: I don't really have any strong feelings towards Dean because everybody already likes Dean. [G: Yeah.] So it's like, "Okay, he's cool. He's got it," you know? Like, I kinda put him to the side. It's not like I don't like Dean at all. It's just kind of like, "Mm, I mean, he's okay." Like, he's there. He's the favorite. He's like, the number one draft pick, so to speak, so he doesn't need my love.

C: Yeah. The writers are obsessed with him. [G: This is true.] That's why he's correct about nothing.

M: I feel like they're so obsessed with him, and then- Never mind. Let me not, let me not.

C: [laughing] No, I'm curious.

G: [laughing] No, we are completely with this discussion.

C: We hate Dean. [C and G laughing] We hate Dean so much.

G: No, I love Dean!

M: No, I didn't say I hated Dean! I was just saying that-

C: Okay, I hate Dean, I hate Dean, and I think that being neutral about Dean is a very good,  brave decision to make.

G: Like, in in this podcast, I am the Dean lover, but like, just because Crystal just doesn't like him so much, [laughs] and so I've just been thrust upon this position. [laughs] Because Crystal doesn't like him. But yeah, go on.

M: I was just saying like, it's ironic that the writers love Dean so much, [G: Yeah.] and that like, he got so many good stories, and like, interesting plotlines throughout the seasons, just for them to kill him with a nail. [C: Yeah.] Like, what is that? [G: Yeah.] What is that? [C: They were being funny.] I would actually fight the writers. I would actually- No. It's not even funny. Like, I played this character for 15 years, [C and G laugh] I would actually, like- we would start boxing. Like, screw what Eric Kripke says, everybody's getting these hands, okay?

C: Was he even involved by the end? Where was Eric Kripke at the end of Supernatural?

G: I don't think he was particularly involved, but Jensen Ackles apparently called him.

C: Oh yeah! He called him, and he was like, "This is a really difficult thing for me to hear about my character," and [overlapping with G] Eric Kripke was like, "Just go for it. It's fine." [G: Yeah.] Like, could Jensen Ackles have gotten them to rewrite it? Like, what did he think was gonna happen?

M: He could've. He could've, but he didn't care, 'cause he was developing The Boys, so.

G: Yeah, I felt very much like you when the show ended. Like, I think, around 2021. I was very like, upset with the show. And even when we were starting this podcast, which is like, early 2022, I was kind of like, afraid of how we're going to do Season 15, even though it's like, years from now, because I'm like- it's still like, a very sore and bitter topic for me. I think nowadays, I have like, just mellowed out, but only because I'm rewatching Supernatural from the beginning. [M: Yeah, okay.] So, like, my mindset is still here. It's still not in Season 15. Sometimes I would think about it and still be like, "Agh, what were they doing??" [laughs] But yeah, I think maybe that feeling for me will resurface, maybe, or maybe not when we get to the later seasons of the show in the podcast.

C: I'm gonna have to take Deangirl sensitivity training so I don't laugh throughout his death the whole time. [G laughs]

M: Oh my god!

G: Crystal is such a hater. Specifically, I wanted to ask you about  your rewatch of Season 4. Did you rewatch it recently? Do you have any new thoughts on the matter? Any surprises that got to you?

M: Yeah, upon my rewatch, I was just like- Oh my gosh, I was kind of taken aback by the nostalgia of it all. And I was taken aback by just how terrible quality it was. [C and G laugh] First of all, watching this on Netflix, and at some point, I was watching it on my TV, I'm like, "Damn, this is actually- like, this feels like 2000 all over again." But I loved rewatching it. I feel like every single time I've rewatched Supernatural, there are little things that I pick up on and little things that I see. I do wanna say, I liked the original Meg that they had, like, played by Nicki Aycox- she's blonde. I liked her. But I'm not gonna lie, like, the brunette Meg does like, hold a special place in my heart, but- There are those little things that I noticed. Ruby, of course, being like, "Oh my gosh! That's Sam's wife!" and I was seeing her, and I was like, this is a weird kinky foreplay of her just being suss, [C laughs] being almost an abuser, and then them dating.

C: Yeah, of the to-be-Padaleckis, yeah. [M: Yeah.]

G: Yeah. Truly experience.

M: Yes, it was- It was weird. It was interesting, but it was definitely weird, and- what else? "Yellow Fever," of course, is my favorite. [G laughs] Made me laugh so hard. And also, "Eye of the Tiger," when he's doing the "Eye of the Tiger" performance on the car, that's my favorite part. I love it so much. I started like, laughing so hard. I actually started laughing a lot during these episodes, [G: Yeah.] and that's the one thing that I feel like new Supernatural missed that old Supernatural did beautifully is that the show was just funny, you know?

G: Really?

M: Yes! It's funny. Like, there is some-

G: You think new Supernatural is less funny?

C: It's my understanding that Supernatural has turned more sitcom-ish as the seasons progressed.

G: I think the future Supernaturals are funny, but, again, I'm at my Season 4 mind right now.

M: They're trying too hard to be funny, though.

G: Oh, yeah, you're right. Like, it's trying to be comedic on purpose instead of [M: Yes.] whatever it is they're doing here. Yeah, I get that. I get that.

M: Season 4, it's like, these are two idiots that are dealing with demons and angels. They are prepared for the Apocalypse. This is what they've been waiting for since the beginning of creation. This is something they've been hoping for. This is something they've been like, longing for, to have a war on Earth. Like, they didn't even care that these two idiots are here. [G: Yeah.] And these two idiots, who have only been born like, a speck of time in comparison to these centuries that these angels and demons have been alive, just have to deal with these two. And they're just trying to like, you know, get this started. You know what I mean? [G: Yeah. Yeah.] So it's fun to watch. It's also fun to see, like, all the writers who have been on the show for so long flex these muscles, and it's crazy 'cause like, a lot of the episodes are really good. And I was just like, "How is it that y'all wrote Season 4 and put together, like, this work of art, like, this storyline, and you gave us like, Season 7. Like, how did that happen?" [G: Yeah.] Where did we lose the plot?

G: I think the thing is, as you said, like, there are episodes in this season that are like, "Wow! That's like, really good." But there are also times where it's like, "Oh, I understand how this show turned into whatever it becomes in the future," because, like, it's the same writers, and I think both the stuff that they're good at talking about and also their pitfalls, like, both individual writers and the show, I think you can see it in Season 4. Yeah. I think honestly, the reason why Season 4 feels so good is because the tail end is just excellent. I really do think that. Like, I think the first few episodes, honestly, were just so-so.

C: I was not impressed. I mean, "Laz Rising" was good [G: Yes.] and 4.03 was good. 4.02, eh. [G: I love 4.02.] And the rest of them were- Okay, "Metamorphosis" had its thing. I think it was like, the middle of Season 4, where it was just regular case episodes, [G: Yeah. And it was a bit of a plot.], none of them were particularly impressive. But I think that the beginning and the end are both very good.

G: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it's easier to remember it fondly. "Yellow Fever" is an interesting pick, because I watched that episode, like, me and Crystal, we did- like, it was entertaining. Like, it was fun. [C: Yeah. I laughed.] But yeah, you think about the implication of what they did to that ghost, and it's like, "What is this?" The thing about Supernatural is you will have a fun episode that is beloved by the fandom, beloved by, you know, both viewers were really into it, and casual viewers are like- And then you watch it, and it is fun. it is fun. It's just that there will always be something there that you're like, "What is that? [laughs] What were they doing?" And for "Yellow Fever" for me, it was like, the way they resolved the actual ghost situation.

C: Yeah, they were like, "This man was murdered so horribly because of, like, his like, ableist or whatever community, and the way to get rid of him as a ghost is to like, kill him again in the exact same horrible way." [G: Yeah.]

M: I remember I was watching Season 4, and there are a lot of episodes that I realize serve as kind of- I don't know how else to describe it, but like, branches. Because a lot of times, if your show feels like they're about to get canceled, [G: Yeah.] or they feel like they might not be renewed, they'll introduce new things in the season, and they'll stay on like, the plotline. So like, this Season 4 stays with like, the Apocalypse, keeping Lucifer from like, breaking the levee, and, like, you know, getting out. But it also introduces a lot of other things, you know. First of all, it introduces Carver Edlund [G: Yeah.] who is writing the Supernatural books. Yeah. And then there's Adam, you know, they're introducing their half brother [C: Yeah.] that they didn't know about. You know, there are a lot of things that are introduced here. Like, I think also Ghostfacers.

C: They were in Season 3?

G: [overlapping with C] They were brought back in "It's a Terrible Life," but that's more of like, a "They planted that seed before, and this is like, it growing now" is with Ghostfacers. But you're right, like, they do plant seeds in this season.

M: 'Cause they're just like, "You know, the Apocalypse storyline is great, but, you know, guys, if you want to continue the show, we have other things so we can jump back to, you know, if you wanna keep us going." [C: That's true.]

G: Yeah, I mean, I do frequently wonder when they decided that Season 5 was not going to be the end. Was it here? Like, when they were doing Season 4, were they already like, "And now we're going to have a Season 6 and 7." Or was that more of a "after they finish Season 5, they got reviewed again." I wasn't, you know, I wasn't into Supernatural at the time, so I have no gauge whatsoever on what the show climate was at the time. But it is interesting to think about 'cause me and Crystal were also discussing the other episode, like, "What is Supernatural about? Like, what are they trying to say?" And because if you just look at Supernatural at the original, quote unquote, "original run" of 1 to 5, it's saying a completely different thing than what it ends up saying in the full show at the 15 seasons. So yeah, like, Supernatural, when did- you know, what were they doing? And how did they deal with the continuance off the show? It's interesting.

-

G: So, yeah. Crystal, I mean, you have talked a little bit, but what's your Season 4 general feelings now that we have gone through the entire thing?

C: Um, I don't know. There's just not that many feelings that exist. Like, I liked "When the Levee Breaks" a lot. But, like, you know, in our 4.22 recording, I said, I didn't feel particularly impressed 'cause I already knew everything. [G: Yeah.] I feel like this is the season where, like, I probably had, like, [both] the most fandom knowledge on, like, play-by-play what all the major plot points are, so like, nothing was really surprising to me, whereas, like, in Season 7, I have no clue how they're gonna defeat Dick Roman, or whatever the fuck. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. I think it did affect how you are. Because, like, I feel like in Season 1, 2, and 3, whenever big, especially emotional, stuff happens, you do react to it in a "I did not expect that to happen here" way. In Season 4, I think especially with Sam's plot in Season 4, I think you knew more than me what was happening! Like, what was gonna happen. [C: Right. This is true.] So yeah, it is a different vibe for you this season. Do you really think it's like, you know, not particularly more than the sum of its parts, what's happening this season?

C: Okay, I think the aesthetic of it is nice. Like, I like the lighting. I think all the things that they did with the angels is very cool. [G: Yeah.] I liked, you know, Uriel and Zachariah, and obviously Cas, and also Anna. So like, good concepts were introduced, and they looked good while they were doing it. But I don't know if I really felt like, a strong emotional connection to the characters or the plotline. Especially because I think.- Season 1, it's like, "We're like, in our twenties, and we're looking for our dad, and we're scared." It's like, okay, like, I know what that is. [G: That's relatable, yeah.] And, you know, later, it's like, Sam has his special- the psychic children arc, which, I mean, I think is like, personal enough to him that I could also feel that. And then, it's, you know, "Dean is gonna go to Hell and die because of the deal he made, and he doesn't wanna die." Like, okay, I get that too. Now, it's like, there's like, the literal Apocalypse, [G: Yeah.] but like, we're just stuck with these two guys who are kind of both annoying. [C and G laugh] Like, why don't I want the world to end? Like-

G: I think this is like, what Manika was saying. Like, for some people it would be incredibly appealing that the stakes are higher, blah blah blah. You think you fall on the other side of that equation? Like, you're like, "I want it to be more personal."

C: Right. I think, first off, we start with Dean having supposedly been in Hell for 40 years, [G: Yeah.] but still knowing how to make burgers and shit, you know what I mean? So like, we start off with like, this giant thing happened that's like, beyond imagining for a lot of people, but like, we aren't able to fully encapsulate what that does to someone at all. Like, Dean's basically the same, except occasionally has like, a flashback. So it's like, you've already set up that there's like, this big stake that you weren't able to follow through with properly. And now with the Apocalypse, yeah, it's like, I don't know. Like, they just keep saying that the world's gonna end. They keep saying the word "apocalypse." But what does that actually mean to them. Like, when they're on their regular hunts in the middle of the season, and they're talking to like, regular people who don't know about hunting, I don't think it's on their minds that, like, "These are the people that are gonna be gone when the world ends," because they also like, don't really bother making any of the people they save [G: Yeah.] particularly like, likable or 3D. So, I don't know. I think it was harder for me to care because the problem of the season felt so abstract.

M: I do want to say, just to like, jump on what Crystal saying, it's always interesting when shows that have, like, otherworldly elements, their protagonists essentially have to deal with something very traumatic and terrible, [C: Yeah.] and they don't go to therapy. Like, they don't do anything to like, resolve what's going on in their minds, because having to like, take the time to like, work out your issues and do like, any self-work, or like, trying to work through your trauma is kind of- it's inhibiting to the plot, really. [G: Yeah.] Like, it takes away the time you could spend the doing the mystery. If you really wanted to get better, you would like, absolutely stop hunting, and, like, you know, take some time away, but that'd also take him away from his family. So there's this sense of purpose, [G: Yeah.] there's this sense of "I have to do this. Like, I have no other choice," you know. You ask, like, "What's the purpose of the Apocalypse? Like, what is it? It feels so abstract." And really, like, I feel like Sam and Dean have been dealing with like, quote-unquote "apocalypses" for, like, most of their life, and it's like, find their dad, find the person that killed their mom. And now they're introducing angels and demons. Like, this is above my paygrade. And it's just that, like, they have no other choice but to take part in this because it's completely out of their hands, [C: Right.] and it's something that's like, thrust upon them. So it's like, you know, the never-ending self-impending doom of their quote-unquote "profession," you know.

C: Right. Also, like, Dean, gets out of Hell, and like, the day of, like, Castiel, is like, "Hey, it's me. Literal God needs you to keep hunting." [G: Yeah.] Like, I guess we don't know what would have happened if he didn't meet Cas, like, right away. I suppose Sam was still hunting Lilith 'cause she was still around. She still had her demon war that she was trying to do. So like, I don't think that Dean would have taken a break, but yeah, I think it's the fact that they chose this job, they keep getting thrust into these situations [G: Yeah.], they keep being in survival mode so they can't go to therapy or take a break or whatever. And because they won't fucking tell anybody because, like, hunting is such an insular community, and like, no one wants to tell anybody [G: Anyone else, yeah.]- like, the civilians about like, ghosts or shit. It's like, they are stuck on like, "It has to be me who does this." Like, I don't know, like, most governmental institutions or whatever like, suck ass, but like, at least, it means that like, there'd be like, [laughs] more than ten people in the US working on the Apocalypse.

G: Yeah, it also does- I think a part of it is just that this is like, a episodic TV show. Like, I feel like, you know, Supernatural, I mean, much like anything, really is a product of like, its time and its format. I feel like if maybe Supernatural was a more prestige TV show or whatever, they would feel more allowance in terms of developing that character in that way, or like, dealing with that trauma that the character experiences in that way. But because, like, you do have to keep the same vibe in every episode, pretty much, it's like, that's really what cements Dean here. Also, oh my god, I completely forgot that the first episode of Season 4 literally ends with, "We have work for you." [C: Yeah.] And that's like, what the rest of the season is about, pretty much, for Dean. It's like, "The angels have work for you." Oh! I forgot that! I mean, Season 4-

C: Cas said that sentence and everything!

G: [laughs] Yeah. No, but like, Season 4 ends with Dean in that room because the angels have work for him, and like, yeah. It is just they are very much just pawns being pushed around. Although I would say that is a big part of why Season 5 works. Like, Season 4 and Season 5 are a pair, I feel. Like, you can't really extricate them from one another the way you can Season 1, 2, and 3 from each other.

C: We talk about how they're going to be vessels for Michael and Lucifer like, every episode during Season 4, even though like, they don't know that.

G: It's not mentioned yet, yeah. And also, like, you know, like, the whole point of Sam and Dean being like, they're just small, small parts in this huge, huge machine. And then, you know, by the end of Season 5, it's like, no, these are the parts. These small parts are like, what makes the thing, and so Sam and Dean can make a difference. Just like those little toy soldiers in the car! [laughs] Whatever. I really like that episode, unfortunately, so it does make me emotional.

C: Is it unfortunate? I thought a lot of people liked "Swan Song."

G: Is it fortunate? Oh, okay, I like that episode, fortunately.

C: I think it's a neutral condition to have. [laughs]

G: Okay, fine.

-

G: Well, let's do character arcs. So what do you guys think of like, the character arcs this season?

C: Well, I just first have to like, figure out what the character arcs are. Who are we starting with?

G: Okay. Where do we start with Sam? Well, hunting with Ruby.

C: Yeah, Sam starts hunting Lilith [M: Yeah.] with Ruby as a revenge thing because she 'caused Dean's death, and also because she's trying to like, have the demon war on earth that they were supposedly fighting in Season 3 but that I forget about constantly.

G: Yeah, I mean, Season 3 ends with Sam being like, "Okay, Ruby, what is it now? Like, you said I can do something. What is it, like, in the last minute?" And Ruby was like, "It's too late. Dean is still going to Hell." So I think that does inform a lot of what Sam is doing. Like, he can't give himself the ability to- or the opportunity to "think it through," quote-unquote, because, like, I mean, "he thought that one through, and now Dean is in Hell"-kind of situation.

C: Yeah. Or it was like, he basically already committed to like, doing whatever it is that Ruby said, would give him powers in the last minutes before Dean's death, [G: Yeah.] and it was too late. But like, it's not too late to get revenge on Lilith. [G sighs] So okay, hand over that demon blood sippy cup.

G: Right. Where does he end the season?

M: [laughs] Not sippy cup.

G: [laughs] Sippy cup. Exactly. Where does he end this season?

C: Well, okay. So-

G: I mean, he ends it miserable. But he also ends Season 4 miserable- or, Season 5 miserable.

C: Have we really discussed what it means that Dean comes back, like, to him?

G: To Sam? [C: Yeah, to Sam.] I don't know. What is there to discuss? What are your thoughts on it?

C: Obviously, [laughs] it was an unexpected thing. [G laughs] [M: Yeah, very unexpected.] He'd already committed himself to being like, this like, revenge-driven just like, completely  lost in the killing Lilith sauce because of Dean's death thing. So like, this sort of throws a wrench into like, the narrative of his life that he's decided, right? [M: Yeah, that's true.] But like, he does continue drinking demon blood. He does continue pursuing Lilith. But, you know, as Dean says in 4.21-

G: [laughs] Now the main issue is that Dean is also here.

C: - is like, "Hey, like, I'm back. [laughs] Like, what is this revenge thing for now?" [G: Yeah.] I think we're supposed to think that at this point, like, he just like, is addicted to demon blood to the point where, like, the revenge is not the primary reason, like, already in 4.01? Or at what point do we think like, he made that switch?

G: I don't know. I mean, he does stop in "Metamorphosis," right? Like, that's a big deal.

C: That's true. He does stop in "Metamorphosis." Does he start up again until "Criss Angel"?

G: Comes back in "Criss Angel," yeah.

C: Okay, yeah. So he wasn't that set on thedemon blood thing until after "Criss Angel," so like, he had an 8-episode interim. So. [G: Yeah.] And then, we think his whole like, arrogance, like, "I can do this better than Dean can" thing starts after 4 12?

M: It's interesting, because I think after Dean leaves, he's gotta like, try to become his own man, almost. [G: Yeah.] So it's a little weird 'cause, like, the Sammy that we know from previous seasons would have tried to find a way to get his brother out of Hell, or try to go to Hell himself and then break him out from there. He would have been mourning or sad, and instead he decides to become-

C: He does say that he tried those things.

M: He says that.

C: Like, we see him try to make a demon deal. Well, we see footage of him trying to make a demon deal in the flashbacks in 4.09. [G and M: Yeah.] He tells Dean also that he literally tried to reopen like, the gate to Hell that was opened [G laughing] at the end of Season 2. I guess we don't know if he actually did that, but like, [laughs] pretty whacked-up thing to make up if you didn't actually do it. [laughs] Like, that's not something I would be proud of telling someone I did.

G: I mean, I think, like, fundamentally, what happened to Sam was like, Dean leaving did change him. [M: Yeah.] Like, we we enter Season 4. Sam is different, even more different than Dean, I would say!

C: [laughs] He installed an iPod jack in the Impala and everything. [G laughs]

G: Yeah! Like, he is even more different than Dean, I think.

C: [laughs] And Dean was literally torturing people for 10 years and tortured for 30 years.

G: Exactly. But like, you know how Sam kept on insisting throughout the tail end of the season that, like, "Dean is different, and like, [C: Yeah, he came back wrong.] he can't do it because he's weak and something changed him in Hell." But really it's like, Sam changed. Sam's different.

C: Sam's different. Dean is like, the same.

G: Dean is the same. It's just that Sam has changed so much that in comparison to Dean that he thinks one of them changed and it's Dean, when it's him, really. Aw. I mean, as I said, I think Season 4 and 5 are paired together, so like, this specific arc of Sam is not yet done. I think it ends in Season 5, so.

C: That's when he decides that he can like, defeat Lucifer in his brain. [laughs]

G: Yeah. So I feel like for Sam, it is a continuing arc. [C: Right.] We need to talk about Dean. [laughs] Why did I say it like that? Well, we do need to talk about Dean.

C: Like, there's nothing else we have to say about Sam? Sam Winchester?

G: Okay, what else do you want to say, Crystal?

C: Like, this is the second season of his relationship with Ruby. Like, there's got to be something there. I don't know. Is there?

G: 'Cause between the two of us, you are the Sam and Ruby person.

C: That's true. I feel like Samruby's larger in my head than it is in the show. Like, I feel like the show itself doesn't really-

G: Reckon with it much.

C: - do much- Yeah, like, they don't like, really like, give it like, the depth or the seriousness of like, an abusive relationship depiction. But they also like, don't really- they just don't- There's not really a lot of feelings in the show between them.

G: Yeah. There's- Ruby is here for more plot.

C: They're both a means to each other's end, yeah.

G: Yeah. I mean, I think Season 3 Ruby has more like, emotional whatever whatever than Season 4, which is a very surprising thing to say. [C: Yeah.] But also, I mean, I just like Season 3 Ruby a lot more. So that's why, probably.

C: [laughs] She has a better actor.

G: Yeah. I mean-

C: Manika, do you have feelings about if Genevieve Padalecki is a good actor? [G: As Ruby. As Ruby specifically.] [M laughs] 'Cause I feel like a lot of people thought that she was like, quite wooden, and I feel like Grey and I felt that way, too. But also like, she is a beloved character, like, in her brunette Ruby iteration. So I'm curious about if there's like, other opinions on her acting. [G: What are your thoughts?]

M: Yeah, I feel like she is very good. To be perfectly honest, I liked her in Season 4, and she really brought like, something interesting to the show. She reminds me a lot of like, Bela, except Bela was kind of sassy and snarky, and she was fun, and I like that about her because she gives like, antihero, so you wanna root for her. But Ruby is very clearly like, she's a demon. She's a bad person. And we know that she's bad, and Sam knows that she's bad, but he can't like, get away from her. And it just kind of falls in line that this is an abusive relationship. It's not like- I don't know if the writers intentionally meant to write it because a lot of the things- 'Cause like, if the writers meant to intentionally depict an abusive relationship, I feel like they should have intentionally depicted like, Sam talking about- bringing up more- when people are addicted to stuff in TV shows, they always say, like, "Oh, I could stop at any time." Or they'll say things like, "Oh, it's like, it's okay. I'm better with it. I know how to manage it. I know how to take care of it," which he does. He's like, you know, "The blood, I'm saving people. Like, we don't have to kill the people. Like, we can still save the people inside" and blah blah blah. And it's weird, 'cause, even though he says that he's still, like, you know, kind of destroying his body in order to do it. And it's just like, this, strange give-and-take that's going on. And I feel like in Season 4, we're seeing Sam, who's like, super nice, very helpful, down-to-earth guy who's willing to work with a demon and eventually falls in love with a demon, and he knows she's a demon. There's no good in her.

C: I mean, even the opinion that Sam is in love with Ruby is not like, [G: Yeah. It's really-] universally held. I don't even know if I believe that. [G: In the context of the show, yeah.] Can you speak more?

M: No. I don't think that he's in love with her. I think that because she makes him feel powerful, and she's like, giving him kind of like, a big head. She's like, "Yeah, you got this." [G: There's a reliance on that, yeah.] He somehow has- There's a reliance on it, and also, like, she's hot [C: True.] [C laughs] and she's there. So if you make a guy feel good enough for a long enough time and you're always around, and you just happen to be hot, he's just gonna wanna get in your pants, you know? [C and G laugh] So he's attracted to her. If he's in love with her, I doubt it.

C: Though, I mean, she was the one to pressure him into sex first. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, but I think she is like, using something.

G: She is absolutely using him, and we all see it but him.

C: I think there is an attraction there already that he did not want to act on. But then, right, she forced the matter in order to make him more dependent on her.

G: It is- I don't know. The Sam and Ruby stuff is incredibly interesting. I think that Ruby, for me, is most beloved in Season 4 in the episodes with Anna. Because I feel like those are the ones that really, like, at least at that point in the story, cement her as like, "She's on our side," or whatever.

C: Right. Like, even an angel says, "Ruby is different from the others. She's nice. She saved me."

G: Yeah. And so, like, I do think that is like, a good turning point in her character. Although after that, I just really don't think they do anything much with her. [C: Yeah.] Like, I think she just becomes like, a plot person. A person to move the plot. [C: Yeah, a real Bobby of a character.] And I don't know. I do feel like a little bit like, "Mm." I think that's also a big part of why by the end of this season, I was like, "Eh." Ruby has a lot of promise, etc. And like, I think, you know, if they brought her back in the show, which they kind of do in Season 14 again, but like, not really. [C: Very briefly.] Yeah, there are interesting avenues to take this character. But, alas! They don't. [C: Yeah.] So it's forever going to be what is.

C: I do feel like they've either forgotten a lot about her Season 3 characterization, or they've decided that you can just think that she was manipulating them, like, the whole whole time. Right, there's this scene at the end of, like, "Malleus Maleficarum," is it? where she tells Dean, "I'm helping you because I remember what it's like to be human and stuff like that." She tells Sam a similar thing, like, in the 4.09 flashbacks. [G: Yeah.] And that is an interesting concept. But I guess at the end, we're just supposed to think she was lying the whole time, [M: The whole time.] and every time she was helping them in Season 3 was to lead Sam. [G: There was a motive.] Which is also like, fine, like, if there's like, depth to that. [G: Yeah.] If we like, understood why she cared so much about raising Lucifer again, or like, [G: Yeah.] her feelings about her role in the matter. Like, she gets a little bit of a monologue in 4.22 about how she's proud of herself for having done this, but like, I don't know. I wanna know why this is important to her. And I also wanna know more about her like, past as a witch and all that shit because they made it such a big reveal in Season 3 [G: Yeah.], and they just sort of drop all those threads with her and have Dean stab her to death!

M: In Season 3, you said, like, in "Malleus Maleficarum," when she said that she remembered what it felt like to be human, it was interesting 'cause she like, warned the Winchesters- She tried to warn them of like, a witch coven, you know, that was being controlled by Astaroth.

C: Yeah, yeah, her former witch teacher person. [G: Boss.]

M: Yeah, yeah. I feel like she was doing that to gain their trust, almost. [G: Yeah.] You know, she's trying to like, get them on her side. And it's most likely that she had always intended to bring back Lucifer, and she probably saw something in Sam that he hadn't seen in himself yet, and she was just like, you know, "What would be more irony than the two brothers that are going around killing like, demons, witches, werewolves to bring Lucifer back to Earth and start the Apocalypse." So I feel like she's been playing the long game.

C: Yeah. [G: Yeah.] She also had some kind of partnership with Azazel, didn't she? Where she said that he passed on the information to her about how Sam had been specially selected to help raise Lucifer?

G: I mean, all of that is so murky. Like, the Azazel-Ruby-Lilith-Lucifer connection is so murky.

C: Yeah, it's just dropped this monologue at the end of Season 4 [G: Yeah.] that is not clear. Like, I don't know. I would love to see some flashbacks of her and, like, Azazel, like, eating fries together and him being like, "Okay, and then you should probably do this [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] and then tell Sam to drink from your veins," and she's like, "Yes, that would be so fun and silly! Alright, writing that down." [laughs]

G: Yeah. I mean- Is this true? Manika, have you heard this? There was this like, thing I heard once, I'm not sure if it's true at all, that like, the reason why Ruby had to be killed at the end of Season 4 is because Jared and Genevieve started dating, and so they didn't want to have Sam and Ruby continue being a thing in the show when the people playing them are dating. Have you heard this? Have you ever heard this?

M: I did see that rumor on Tumblr. And the thing with Supernatural is that they're one of those shows that start airing while the show's filming because the show is so long [G: Right. Yeah, yeah.] it was impossible for them to like, film all the shows, like, the full season, and then air it, so that could be the case. But I think what really happened was that Ruby was meant to be a one-season character the same way, like, Lilith has been. [G: Yeah, for like, a shorter- yeah.] 'Cause like, you could bring in a female character, but yeah, if she's not on the Winchester's side, she's not a good person, then she's gonna die. Even when she is a good person, she may die. [G: Yeah.] So it is possible that, like, Ruby, was always intending for Sam to get stronger and stronger and stronger, and him feeling guilty that he couldn't take down Lilith and his brother still went to jail- he went to Hell. She was like, "Oh, yeah, I got him right where I wanted." [C: Yeah.] And then, you know, and then she was like, "Yeah, I mean, I wanna raise Lucifer." And like, they knew. The writers had to know, like, if Ruby is going to raise Lucifer, then she's going to die this season. [G: Yeah. That is probably also-] So I feel like- Yeah, and I think them dating just kind of happened.

G: Yeah. [laughs] We have been talking about the Padaleckis so much for this episode. But I think honestly, like, that kind of like- outside factors that contributed to the character dying or whatever is more applicable to Anna, really, than Ruby.

C: Oh, absolutely. God, poor Anna. Right, Manika, you've heard that like, Anna was sort of meant to stay on, like, as the Cas character. [G: The Cas of the show, yeah.] But then the audience all liked Cas so much more that they just like, diminished Anna's role and then kill her in Season 5.

M: Oh. Wait, seriously?

C: Yeah. Like, Cas supposed to die in Season 4.

G: Yeah. Then got brought back in Season 5. It is fascinating how they do- I don't know.

C: 'Cause you can feel it because of how, like, right, like, Grey, both of us said that Anna shows up in 4.20 and 4.21, [G: 21, yeah.] and like, she's like- she doesn't contribute anything to either of those episodes. She's just there to like, drop information that, like, they already knew. And I think it's because the actress was like, contracted to be on more episodes. [G: Yeah.] And then like, eventually, when they were like, "Actually, we want Castiel for this kind of a role," then, like, she like, still had to film those episodes [G: Got booted up to heaven.] but they didn't have anything to give her to do or whatever. So yeah, they just flattened her out.

G: That is interesting what you pointed out, Manika, like, Supernatural is a show that is writing while still airing or still filming.

C: Right, which is why things like Cas getting brought back in Season 7 because, like, the audience, was not enjoying that he was gone for so long, [G: Yeah.] that's why something like that could have happened.

G: That format basically gives us Cas back in Season 7, yeah. Well, [laughs] is that all good for Sam?

C: Sure. [laughs]

G: Okay, let's talk about Dean. Let's talk about Dean.

C: Yeah. I am curious about how Sam's guilt over Lucifer is gonna affect him in Season 5. Okay, that's my last thing to say.

G: No, that's for Season 5, yeah. [M: Uh-huh.]

-

G: What is the Dean situation? I don't know.

C: I don't know. He existed and was annoying. You guys can talk about him.

G: It's because, like, when Dean is endearing, he is endearing, and when he is annoying, he is so annoying! [M: Mm.] And in Season 4, I feel like he is a lot more annoying than he is endearing. [C: Yeah.] This season, especially 'cause we did a break to watch Good Omens for 3 months [laughs], but during that time I was thinking about Dean a lot. I was like, reminiscing on Season 1 Dean, etc. I just had extreme fondness for him. And then we went back to the show, to Supernatural, and it was like, "Aw. This is not like, the Dean that I like." Like, Season 4- I mean, because Sam and Dean, as I said, like, they have to maintain like, a status quo. But also they do, in fact, actually change also. It's just incredibly like, gradual and sometimes not intentional, [laughs] I feel like. Like, it's the external forces that cause that instead of like, them as characters. But like, I feel like Dean is like- Season 1 and 2 Dean, extremely endearing. And then it like, dips down very, very low for a while. [laughs] And then it rises back up until, you know, Season 15. So like, I feel like right now, me and Dean, we're not good. [C: You're on the outs.] We're having our divorce era. Yeah. He's sleeping on the couch, etc. So. I don't know. I mean, Manika, what do you think of Season 4 Dean? Like, Season 4 specifically.

M: I feel like Season 4 Dean is the beginning of like, grouchy Dean, you know? [G: Yes.] You know, like, grumbly Dean. You know, he's just so- I don't know how to say it. Pent up? You know, he doesn't talk about his feelings, doesn't open up, really. Like, he went to Hell. [G: Yeah.] Like, he literally went through suffering, like, the worst kind of suffering possible, and it's because the show won't allow them to talk about. Like, he was about to become a demon. Like, that was his like, biggest fear. And now here he is on Earth, he's back to hunting again, and, like, the season prior, he knew that he was gonna die in a year, so he was almost like, reckless and almost like, suicidal in a way. But he was just kinda like, in his head like, "Oh, I can't die before I'm supposed to. So like, if I do something really stupid on this hunt, it's gonna be fine, 'cause like, I'm not gonna die, you know? Not this time around." And now that Dean's been to Hell, it's kind of like, well, how does he feel? What's going on with him now that he's gone through something that traumatic? Like, how does he view hunting now? Like, has things changed for him? 'Cause I try to think about it like, a soldier coming back from war, you know? So soldiers come back from war, he's like, heartbroken, and, like, you know, kind of like, down and sad, and they either hate their country or they come back, and they're just like, even more of like, a [tough-guy voice] "red-blooded American!" And it seems like Dean is like, the second one, but he still feels like, you know, "Why do I have to go?"

G: He feels more attached to hunting, do you think?

M: Yeah, he feels more attached to hunting, you know? Because it's just what he knows. Like, there's nothing else he can do, really.

G: I think, honestly, what you said, it brought up something interesting in me, which is like, is he afraid to die now? Is there more of a survival instinct because like, he knows what being dead's like?

C: [laughs] Right, he knows where he's going.

G: Yeah, I don't- That is an interesting thought. I think- I don't know, like, you're right, Season 4 is the beginning of this Dean, which is why, like, as I said, a lot of my reminiscing was like, Season 1-3. I mean, to be fair, Sam also is like- this is the beginning of Sam being something else. Like, his attitude towards the later half of the show is very much informed by all of the experiences of this season. So the differences with Dean, we don't see it happen on screen. Like, the thing that changes him. We don't see it happen necessarily on screen, while, you know, the entire season is dedicated to what happens to Sam. So.

M: Yeah, that's true. And it's ironic, too, because Dean literally finds out that he's like, chosen by God, and I feel like this hurts Sam even more because he, out of the brothers, was like, the one openly a believer in God. And he's tried to be a good person, but because, like, he starts drinking demon blood, he's somehow seen as like, defective. And I would have to say that's a little like- I don't wanna say it's harsh, but, like, damn. He was the one who actually like, believes in the big guy upstairs. And like, Dean literally couldn't care less. Like, he does not want to do this, and it's just like, the angels are just like, "We don't care. Like, he asked for you specifically." So like, you gotta get with the program. [C and G: Yeah.]

C: In terms of Dean never talking about his feelings, I think the two moments that I recall are in "Monster Movie," he's talking to Jamie about [G: To that girl, yeah.] about how like, he went through a near-death experience  and he's back now.

G: He wants to make it worth it.

C: Yeah, he wants to make it worth it. And he wants to help people through hunting. So I think you're right that he's rededicated to hunting after this. [G: Yeah.] And then in 4.15, he's talking to Tessa. [laughing] Dean can only open up to like, one-off love interest women. Like, wild.

G: Because when he opens up to Sam, I feel like it's a completely different vibe. [C: Yes.] It's like, I don't know, "This is what happened to me." [C: Yeah, and then they both sit with it.] which is like, a different thing than like, "This is how it changed me," which is his conversation with Tessa and Jamie.

C: Yeah, so Tessa is- He says something else about, you know, second chance. And then he says specifically that like, he- it's not that he feels honored, but there's a weight to like-

G: He says he just wish he died in Season 2 already, but like, because he didn't, he just has to keep on going because this is the situation now.

C: Yeah, and he says that the idea that, like, Heaven saw something good in him, despite all the torture he did in Hell, like, matters to him in that he does want to like- He does care about like, the work that's been given to him because [G: Yeah.] he was brought back by Heaven, who, like, some somehow forgave him for the torture in some way. [G: Yeah, which is truly-] But like, that's all before he finds out- Like, I guess, okay, in Season 5, I'm assuming he's gonna be processing the fact that the thing he was telling himself that like, "This is why I'm back, and so that means it's good that I'm back," like, the fact that that's a lie, he'll probably be processing that in Season 5, I assume?

G: Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows?

M: Who knows?

C: [laughs] Yeah, they don't really process in Supernatural.

G: [laughs] Exactly. I think, you know, one of the most fascinating episode sequence choices they made was putting the Tessa episode right before "On the Head of a Pin." Because, you know, Dean in that episode was like, "Oh, I'm here for a reason because God is like, you know- Like, I was saved from the torture and the torturing because God had work for me." [C: Yeah.] And then, like, "On the Head of a Pin" is like, "Oh, actually, the work is torturing someone."

C: [overlapping] [laughing] "We have work, and the work is do more torture!" Yeah.

G: Which must have sucked so hard.

C: It's true, yeah. He viewed being saved as redemption from the torture. So the fact that it's like, "Maybe we saved you 'cause we like that you did torture and we want you to do more torture" [laughs] is not a good feeling.

G: Yeah. Yeah. Do we have anything more to say about Dean? I'm gone. I feel like-

C: Well, there's his relationship with Sam that like, sours immensely this season.

G: I mean, of course. [laughs]

C: Back to Sam, baby! No, but yeah.

G: No, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, "Well, his relationship with Cas, we can talk about in the Cas part!" [laughs] But we literally can. [G: Well, we can.] Relationship between Sam and Dean. What's the situation? I don't know. You know, it's terrible right now, and mostly because of Dean.

C: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, I agree with that one. I know some people would not, but I think it's all Dean's fault, mostly. [G: Yeah.] It's bad right away Like, he fucking punches Sam in "Metamorphosis." [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: I think there's also the fear that, you know, Dean was afraid of becoming a demon, and as Manika said, it was like, his biggest fear. Like, Ruby told him, like, "I'm a demon because I was human, and then I tortured in Hell," etc. and Dean was afraid that was gonna happen to him. And now Sam is here, drinking demon blood, foreseeably maybe turning into a demon, so, I don't know.

C: Yeah, I think that's probably part of it. [G: A part of it, yeah.] They just seem to have completely forgotten about that after 4.16. Like, the writers- Like, we have, like, Dean's whole, like, in 4.21, he's like, "I'm gonna continue heroically enacting medical abuse on my brother because I draw the line at him, turning into a monster." And at no point, like- You'd think the fact that, like, he did torture and like, he's ashamed of doing torture and that's like, related to demonness would come up. [G: But it never does.] Like, if you have one line how like, "I fucking wish someone like, went down in Hell and like, chained me up in a room so I couldn't torture people anymore" or some random bullshit like that, I feel that would have brought together his [both] arc a lot better than like, whatever the fuck he was doing in 4.21.

G: Yeah. Okay. Well, can we talk about Cas now? [laughs]

C: Oh, sure, yeah.

-

G: Yeah. So what are our thoughts on Cas? I mean, this is his beginning, so. [C: He's new.] He's new.

G: He's he's a new character. It is like, I mean, Cas's arc is actually very clearly delineated. Is that a word? Yes. But it's very clear, like, what they're trying to do, when they were doing it. I feel like there's less like, room to waver because he's new. This is like, the first time we're meeting him, and, like, you know, with Dean, it's like, he already was a complex character going into this. Sam, too. And Cas is like, well, he is, you know, he's God's angel, and now he is turning into something else! Wow. What are your thoughts on Destiel? What's your situation?

C: Wait, are we there already? [M laughs]

G: No, no, no, I'm just asking. I'm just asking.

M: I'm gonna be honest, when Cas was first introduced, I was like- I was super excited because upon watching the show from the very beginning, I had to Google, like, "When does Castiel [G: Of course, yeah.]- when is he introduced in the show?" You know, the Google says, like, "Season 4," and I was like, "Okay, bet." But I think, like, the previous episodes, of course, previous seasons did a good job in setting up the show towards the Apocalypse. So when Dean's like, you know, crawling out of the field, in the grass, and he's like, crawling his way out of Hell, it's like, "Oh, snap!" And I'm like, "Ooh, Cas is gonna come in at any minute." He comes in the first season. I'm like, "Hell, yeah." And I love Season 4 Cas because he adheres strictly to angelic doctrine. [G: Yeah.] As in like, he has, like, an unwavering commitment to what Heaven wants, and his interactions with Dean are so stoic. [G: Yes!] Like, it's so funny because Dean is a normal person.

G: Crystal has a term for it! Crystal has a term for it. He's statue-moding. [C: Yeah.] Like, he's acting like a statue in a lot of his stuff with Dean. And like, I do think that is so true, yeah.

M: Yes. I do wanna say I'm glad that Cas has stayed. I feel like with Anna, it would have been cool to see her stay, but the thing is, with like, Anna, she fell into the born sexy yesterday trope, where, because they're angels, they don't understand humans and how humans work, like, life on Earth, so they only know, like, the way Heaven works and what Heaven tells them about Earth, and the fact that, like, Anna slept with Dean-

C: She lived there for 20 years, though. She was born into a human body.

G: Yeah, she was human.

C: Sh had her like, past, her parents, and all that shit. So like, I think she had been living on Earth, experiencing it fully for 20 years.

M: We're talking about the redhead, right?

C: Yeah, yeah. [G: Anna.] [M: Okay.] Because she chose to fall from Heaven and be born human there. She had a childhood. Like, they talk about her at age 2 screaming about how she's scared that her dad will kill her. [G: Get killed by her dad, yeah.] Her God memories coming in, or whatever. But I mean, she was only 20, though, [laughs] like, in her mind at the point that she sleeps with Dean. [G: Yeah.] And I think that is kind of iffy.

G: Yeah. That is also a thing that I felt.

M: Yeah. You guys are right, you're right. I was just gonna say that like, I feel like if Anna stayed on the show, she would have fell into the born sexy yesterday trope, which is basically when, like, an alien or like, you know, a girl loses her memory, or like, they're not from Earth, and so they depend on, like, the first man they've ever met to guide them, and then they somehow see this man as also like, a love interest, so to speak, and- The earliest sample I have of it that I've seen so recently is Bella Baxter in the movie Poor Things, which is the newest movie with [with G] Emma Stone. It kind of falls into that, yeah. So I'm kind of glad that Anna wasn't really included in. I was gonna say, Castiel is like, very... enigmic? [C and G: Enigmatic.] Yeah, as a character. But I feel like if he was a woman, then he would kind of be like Anna. So I think having two characters that are kind of like, not fully there, it's kind of like, that's a little too much. One is enough, you know?

G: I do think a more direct point of what you're trying to make is like, fundamentally, because Anna is a woman, they would feel they need to make her a love interest. [M: Yes.] And that is like, you know, [laughs] Supernatural is a terrible show who handles their female characters incredibly terribly a lot of time. And like, 'cause what they did was they were like, "Okay, we're going to bring Anna in, and she's gonna be a type of character. And also, she's going to be Dean's love interest." And because the love interest didn't really particularly work, like, they didn't have much chemistry, Anna and Dean, they were like, "Okay, let's just throw away the entire character," and that is incredibly irritating to me, because, like, you're the one who dictated that all of your female characters need to be like, a love interest, or like, a mother figure, you know? Like, you're the one who made that category, that like, you know. And it's like, you're right that because Cas, well, is a guy like, there is a feeling of "he's not gonna fall into the usual tropes of whatever whatever because he's not gonna be treated like a love interest." It is just annoying because it is like, a- Like, that's Supernatural's fault, you know? Like, that's not because of Anna as a character. [M: Of course, of course.] That's because the show just deals with it so terribly. Like, me and Crystal, like, whenever Anna shows up, we talk constantly about like, "Oh, where could have they taken this character?" blah blah blah. But the thing is-

C: Do we talk about it constantly? I feel like we haven't talked about it sufficiently.

G: Really? You think so? Well, yeah, like, when we do that, it's like, "Oh, what would happen to Anna?" blah blah blah, "Where could they take this character?" But the thing is, Supernatural would just never do it because they have already set their mind on what Anna is supposed to be, and because that doesn't work, it's like, "Well, she couldn't be anything else," unlike Cas, who's like- I mean, they will try many things with Cas's character through the years. And it's like, "Oh, it doesn't work. Well, let's just bring back the blah blah. Let's just-" you know. And Supernatural, fundamentally, is a show that gives its male characters more benefit of the doubt when something doesn't work, and that is a sort of gripe for me.

C: Also, like, regarding "the love interest thing didn't work out so they threw her away," like, the thing is like, obviously the idea that, like, angels don't experience romantic or sexual attraction is like, untrue, and also, I think, like, kinda like a dumb idea to work with, but like, I feel like there was ground for them to just go like, "Angel!Anna is a new character, [G: Perspective.] and like, therefore doesn't feel the way about Dean that, like, human!Anna did. And thus, like, we don't have to put her in the love interest role anymore, and she can like, have a new role in the story," but they threw her away instead. Like, in 4.20, like, she shows up, and Dean's like, "Hey, you're looking good." And she just goes, "Not appropriate, Dean." [G: "Not the time!"] [laughs] So like, if the love interest thing didn't work out, which it didn't, they had like, a perfectly fine avenue to go like, "Well, it's no longer an option for either of them. Okay, well, now, what do we do with this character?" [G: Yeah.] But they didn't.

G: I mean, like, [laughs] many people have said this, but like, the reason why Supernatural does end up becoming like, gay is because they would only, you know- [laughs] Because it is misogynistic! I don't know. Like, they wouldn't develop any of the female characters, they wouldn't let them stay for long, and so-

C: Yeah, what happened to all the pussy on Supernatural?

G: Exactly. And it's Castiel. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

C: [laughs] They just had to love interest-ify him at the end because they were out of other options. But he was always- I feel like Destiel was always there. But, okay, I do wish that- He says he's expressing doubts in 4.07 already, and then, like, they just don't do anything with it, for, like, 9 episodes.

G: I feel like they do! [C: What do they do-] Okay, never mind. You're right. 9 episodes. Yes.

C: Yes. 16 minus 7, baby!

G: Yeah. I mean, I was fine with it. [C: Yeah.] I feel like it is essential for Cas's character that it is the last episode of this season that he does his turn, you know? That he gets turned around.

C: Still wish he had a better reason to get turned around in 4.16 than "Seeing Dean do torture makes me sad, 'cause I wanna fuck him," [G laughs] but oh, well.

G: Oh, well. Yeah. I feel like there's not really much to discuss about Cas yet.

C: 'Cause he talks about his feelings out loud to Dean and Anna, so there's nothing really to like, tease out. Like, we know what he thinks.

G: He's pretty clear-cut at this point, yeah. Oh, I'm so excited for Cas next season! They're going to be Team Free Will, the three of them! [C: Mm-hm.]

M: I do think it's like, great that Cas who is like, a new character in the season, did find it within himself to like, question like, "What's going on in Heaven? Why is this happening?" And in the last minute, he decides to like, help Dean to avert the Apocalypse because he's influenced by Dean. And he starts questioning like, his divine orders, and like, and they're trying to like, figure like, "What is free will? Like, what would that be like?" you know, to fight Heaven and help Dean avert the Apocalypse, it's this act of rebellion [G: Yeah.] that is very different from like, the character that we're introduced to as Castiel, and like, bringing in more complexity for his character. And it's like, the foundation of who he is, who he's going to be in the next couple of seasons. So we're just starting to see Casiel kind of like, get out of the shell. He's still, like, you know, very stoic and like, still very much, like, naive to the way of the world. But he's navigating what it means to like, have morality and like, free will, and like, what that looks like for him. And like, Season 4's just the beginning for him. [G: Yeah.]

C: Wish we knew why he didn't want the world to end, though. [G: Because there's people!] [M: Yes!] Like, I know that it's just that world ending equals bad, but like, do we see him care about people, though?

G: Because if there's anything to die for, it's this! [laughs] As Dean said.

M: He has a bond with Dean. It's literally his bond with Dean.

C: Okay, okay. I don't- is that it? [G laughs] Like, "Dean doesn't want the world to end, and so I just won't make the world end"? Because he was already doubting in 4.07!

G: Of course. You know, he's doubting, he's doubting. But here is a person that he relies on to be right about these things, and he's saying that this is the right thing to do. And I do think that means something. Like, if you're on the fence-

C: Why is he relying on Dean to be right about things? Do we see him looking towards Dean as a moral authority?

G: [overlapping] Because he's hot! I don't know. [laughs] Did you hear what I said? I said he listens to Dean because Dean is not.

C: I did hear what you said, but it's not a true statement, [G laughs] so like, I don't see how that's relevant. [laughs] But-

G: Well, I mean, I don't know. I feel like Cas-

C: Okay, what's the textual backing of him viewing Dean as a moral authority?

G: Well, I mean, it's just, you know, him being able to tell Dean that, you know, like, "I don't know what's right or wrong here" [C: Yes.] and then Dean in that moment being like, "ell, I think this is what was right and this is what was wrong." And I think in that moment, he does internalize that. Also, he always like, sets himself parallel to Dean. He's always like, [C: Yeah, "Do you swear to-"] "your dad, my dad." You know, he always does that. And so I think he does see himself, as like, you know, a mirror to Dean.

C: Well, okay. Well, why does he think that? What does he see of himself and Dean? Just the father relationship?

G: Sometimes, you just do! I think maybe the father relationship. [C: Okay, the father relationship.] Also like, just a weird admiration. Like, he went to Hell, battled his way through Hell to save this guy. [C: Yeah, under orders.] So like, there is going to be an aspect of "There is something with this guy that is special, that I did all that to get to him."

C: But, it's because he was under orders, though. So it's like, "Heaven thinks there's something special about this guy." But like, there are ways to go with like, rejecting Heaven that involve like, "Well, if Heaven thinks he's special, and I don't trust Heaven anymore, like, why should I trust him?" Like, there are different directions. You can go with that. Like, why did the direction that Cas chose- why did he choose that one?

G: I think it's just at some point, he had a profound bond with Dean. [C laughs] No, I mean, like, you know, "If it was anything- I would give anything not to have you do this." in 4.16. [C: Mm-hm.] Like, that's sincere. And it's like, at that point, Dean has ceased being an instrument of Heaven and more of like, a person that Cas has a personal connection with. Yeah, like, at the beginning of the season, like, you wouldn't imagine Cas Season 4, Episode 2 saying, "If it was something, I would give anything not to have you do this." to Dean [G: Yeah.] if he asked Dean to torture, then, because they haven't gone through anything yet together on Earth.

C: Yeah, they have been through much together, you and I.

G: Oh my god. [laughs] Yeah, crazy line still. But yeah. I think the beginning is like, "Well, that's a guy I saved, and so it's interesting that Heaven wanted me to do that, and that I went through all that stuff to do that." And then towards the end of the season, it's like, everything else that we went through together.

M: I was just gonna say that I feel like Dean is the only person that Cas has had, like, a true connection with. [G: Yeah.] 'Cause all the ages are very much the same. They're all very stoic. They're all kind of like, to the point. They're all very matter-of-fact, they only do what Heaven tells them to do, and he hasn't been exposed to any kind of vulnerability until he met Dean. So I feel like with Dean, he just really moved him. [C: I think-]

G: I mean, he has a connection with Uriel and Anna. I do think that is something.

M: I mean, I think that's a different connection, but yeah.

G: Because with Uriel, I think Uriel is asking something different of him than what Dean was asking. Anna was asking something similar, but Ana was already painted as like, automatically bad [C: Right, fallen.] by virtue to because she is fallen. And I think Dean straddles that line of like, asking Cas the thing that appeals to Cas the most and, again, like, being like, "good" in Cas's head, because "I went through all that trouble to save you."

C: Yeah, I do think that a component of Cas's connection to Dean that I haven't thought about that much earlier is the fact that, like, this is happening at the same time as like, Cas's other relationships deteriorating. [G: Yeah, you're right. His entire garrison got killed.]

C: He had his garrison, they were his family. But then, like, yeah, first, like, Anna chooses to fall to Earth, and like, [M: Yeah.] she's gone. And he's been like, working with her, and like, she's been his sister for like, thousands and thousands of years, so like, that had to have shaken him up at first, and also probably made him think about Earth and humanity [G: Yeah.] a little differently. Just the fact that she chose to do that at all. And then members of his garrison keep getting killed off, like, weekly because of the Apocalypse. [G: Going to Hell-] And then, like, he's in charge of his garrison and shit now. [G: Yeah.] He's in charge of it now, and then he gets demoted [G: The Uriel thing happens.] and then the Uriel thing happens, where someone he's trusted for thousands of years, but who has differing thoughts on humanity than him, [G: Yeah.] turns out to have been betraying everyone the whole time and being like, the cause of the like, many other deaths in their garrison. Like, 7, was it? Like, that week, or something?

G: Yeah. I mean, his social life was dying also. Also, his corporate life was dying. He did get demoted. So I get it. [all laugh]

C: Yeah, no. This is like, a time where he would overprioritize his connection to Dean in his head because it's the only thing he has during this time of instability for him.

G: Yeah, I mean, we've discussed this one with the line, like, "We've been through much together, you and I." because, like-

C: Yeah, we were like, "He hasn't." But like, maybe to Cas, yeah.

G: To Cas, it does mean like, a lot. Like, this is a lot for him. Well, I think that's all for Cas.

C: Wait, I'm still curious about his feelings about humanity because we get like, bits of it in 4.07, and then we don't later. I want to know more.

G: I think Cas and humanity is a situation that will happen more in 5 and 6, specifically. I think those seasons have a more of a focus on that because Cas just interacts with more humans. [C: Right.] Like, which humans does Cas interact with here. Sam, sometimes, [C: Sam and Dean.] and Dean, mostly. So like, I feel like Cas's actions towards humanity is less-

C: [laughing] Well, he had to imitate Bobby's voice on the phone in 4.15. [G: This is true!] He and Bobby could be making out sloppy in that junkyard every day. [G laughs] We don't know.

G: This is true. Well, yeah.

C: 'Cause currently, he likes humans in the abstract, as he says, to like, Uriel, "It's blasphemous to call humans mud monkeys" or whatever, yeah.

G: 'Cause they're God's creations.

C: Yeah, 'cause they're God's creations. But as his relationship to God like, becomes more and more tenuous, I'm curious about like, the new reasons he'll have for loving humanity.

G: Yeah, at this point, Cas is still like, "Heaven wants to kill all humans or whatever, but God doesn't." Like, that's still his perspective, really. [C: Just like Aziraphale.] Yes, it's true. He goes into Season 5 thinking this, so yeah, that's the situation. [C: Mm, yeah.]

-

G: Well, let's do fave eps. Manika said something about "Yellow Fever." Is that your fav ep, or is that just an ep that you just like?

M: I do like "Yellow Fever." I like it. I like "Yellow Fever." I don't know if it's my favorite. I mean, you're gonna have to come back to me on that, because I'm not sure if I know my favorite quite yet.

G: Okay, do you have a least favorite? [laughs] I feel like a lot of times that's easier to say.

M: A least favorite?

G: I have one, actually, like, at the cuff. It's "Wishful Thinking." It's so bad.

C: [laughing] Oh god, it's so bad! It's so bad! Take it out. Get rid of it.

G: Do you even remember this, Manika? Like- [laughs]

M: I do. The bear. The bear.

G: Yes, the bear. Oh, the bear was fine. The bear was fine.

C: The bear, that was silly, goofy, [G: Yeah, it's wonderful.] I love the child actor that they got for Audrey. That was fine.

G: The rest of the episode was horrible! [C: Frowing up.] I don't know. What other terrible episodes are there? "Monster Movie" was a little bit bad.

C: Wait, should we say why we hate "Wishful Thinking," or will the audience just understand?

G: Well, why do we hate it?

C: Okay, well, I think there's two things. The first thing is like, the misogyny and horror in like, the storyline of- What's her name? Hope? Like, the woman who's married to the guy who initiated the first wish. [G: Yeah.] And the second one was just the ideological and consistency about why making the wishes is bad and then [laughs] Sam literally saying- what? That like, what makes life life is that you don't get what you want, and you're miserable forever, and that's good? [G laughs]

G: Yeah. No, I mean, I think the main complaint really is for me the whole like, Hope situation, and also the fact that they focus on [both] the guy's feelings. "Oh my god! It's so sad that she's not in love with me anymore after the spell that made her in love with me was gone!"

C: Like, you ruined her life. [G: Yeah.] You made a wish, hoping it would come true, that she would ditch her family, ditch her friends, ditch her job, come live with you, do nothing but please you and make you roast chicken and then offer sex to you whenever you felt bad. And like, now she's gonna like, come back to reality with the memories of like, all that happening, and like, the horror of that, and have to rebuild her life from scratch after being essentially mind-controlled for a month.

G: Yeah. And like, I think, "Wishful Thinking" really cements to me who, I suppose, who Supernatural thinks is watching the show. [C: Men.] Yeah, men. [M: Yup.] And, I mean, it's very obvious from a lot of episodes of Supernatural. But this is the one where it's like, "Oh, okay." It's not even that they think men are the primary watcher. It's that they think men are the only ones watching, or like, they are the only ones watching that we [C: Care about.] are obligated to or even care about catering to. So yeah, that was a bit of a "Oh, okay. Well, that's horrible."

C: And I talk about it in the episode for it, but like, this is a Ben Edlund problem because I think the moment that I had that feeling was in Season 2 with "Simon Said," [G: Yeah.] where like- Is her name Tracy? [G: I forgot.] Okay, there's like, this woman that- what's that guy? Is his name Andy? [G: Andy mind controls-] No, no, Ansem Weems is the one who mind controls her. [G: Twin.] Okay, yeah. Andy's twin is like, an awful guy who, like, mind-controls women to rape them, and then like, makes them like, jump off of a bridge and kill themselves after or whatever the fuck. [G: Yeah.] This woman is also the love interest of Andy, his brother. And then, at the end of the episode, like, once she's been rescued like, she's like, in the ambulance and shivering and stuff. Like, she's been through like, the worst thing ever. And then Andy approaches her, and she like, is scared of him because she knows that he has mind control powers [G: As well, yeah.] like his brother. And the episode ends on his face looking sad that she rejected him in this moment of like, absolute horror and trauma for her. And that is also a Ben Edlund episode. [G: Yeah.] I don't know, this guy just has a thing where he's like, "I'm gonna make women like, the victims in this episode, but like, in a way where like, it only matters [G: Yeah.] because this causes them to reject the men that you're supposed to feel bad for in the episode."

M: Oh yeah, that episode was really bad! [C: Mm-hm.]

G: Yeah, I mean, so many episodes of Supernatural are like this. [laughs] I mean, yeah. But also, Ben Edlund, specifically, [C, laughing: Is like this.] you go into his episodes, and, like, he has good episodes. This is true. "On the Head of a Pin" is his, right?

M: He did "Mystery Spot" and "Changing Channels," too. [C: Those are fun.]

G: Did he? He also did "The Man Who Would Be King," his most iconic one. [C: Oh, yeah, yeah.] But like, lot of the times, you go into his episodes like, "I hope he doesn't write women this episode." [C and G laugh]

M: He also did the Cupid episode, too.

C: Oh, "My Dirty Valentine." [G: Yeah.] He does have a lot of bangers [G: Iconic ones, yeah.], but he's really bad about women. [laughs] [M: Yes.]

G: Yeah. There's also ones where it's like, "Well, that's horrible," yeah.

C: So yeah, I agree. "Wishful Thinking" is the worst one.

G: Manika, do you have a worst one of Season 4?

M: I would have to say- of Season 4? [G: Yes.] In my opinion, I think "Monster Movie." [G: Mm, yeah.]

C: I didn't like "Monster Movie." Because now that I've read Dracula, like, what the fuck are they on about in that one? [G laughs] That is not what happens in Dracula.

G: That is also Ben Edlund! Yeah.

M: Yeah, that's why it's my least favorite.

G: You know what? I would do an honorary mention to- what is that? "Family Remains"? [C laughs] Kinda bad. [C: It wasn't very good.] It's not as egregious. I don't think it's that bad, it's just also not good at all. [laughs] I mean, it's an interesting concept. It's just, I feel like the whole family moral that they had at the end where it's like, "It's fine that the dog died and that also the uncle died because the nuclear family is fine!" was a bit crazy.

C: Yeah. And they just witnessed their dog's throat slit and their uncle impaled in front of them, but it's fine. They're hugging each other.

G: Yeah. Well, okay. Best episode? Favorite. Well, not best. Favorite episode? What's that.

C: I'd say 4.21, even though it's also so awful.

G: It's a lot of thought. Like, you think about it a lot, I think.

C: Yeah. All the Sam hallucinations, besides, like, the useless Alastair one, were like, well-written, well-acted, brought together a lot of things that like, I was like, "Why aren't they talking about this this season?" Like, I feel like it was a really good conclusion to the Sam arc that they had for the season.

G: Okay, my answer would be "Lazarus Rising," but I feel like we shouldn't add "Lazarus Rising" in the mix just because, well, I mean, obviously. But for me, I think "It's a Terrible Life" is the best episode this season. [C: Mm.]

M: Oh, "It's a Terrible Life"'s a good one.

G: I love it! I love it. Lots to say, but I think it's good.

C: Huh. We have two Sera Gambles as the favorites so far.

G: Well, I mean, I think "It's a Terrible Life" is like, I do feel sad that it doesn't inform a lot of the future decisions Sam and Dean make. [C: Yeah.] Like, it feels very isolated, right? Like, it's a big episode. Like, Zachariah is revealed here.

C: It should be a big deal. 4.19 should also be a big deal, but it isn't.

G: But like, they don't really reckon with what they learn here, to the point where sometimes I'm like, "Do they even remember that? Like, did they forget?" But yeah, I think it's so wonderful, and I do think, like, viewing the rest of the season with the lens of what happened in "It's a Terrible Life" is like, an effective way to view it, you know? Manika, have you figured out your favorite episode?

M: Yes, I have. [G: Let's hear it.] My favorite episode is "On the Head of a Pin." [C: Good point, yeah.] [G: Yeah.] Yeah. 'Cause I just like that it goes a little bit deeper into Castiel's character, and then, like, he really has to like, think about his loyalty to Heaven, and he has to confront, like, the brutality that it would take to win a war against Hell. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, it also, like, I feel like "On the Head of a Pin," I don't know if I'm gonna regret saying this, but it really is like, kind of like, the start of the Destiel storyline. [C: Yeah.] Because the complexity-

G: I agree, yes. [M: Yeah.]

C: I think "I would give anything to have you not do this" is like-

G: Well, it's crazy! [M laughs]

C: - the first moment anyone would be like, "Wait a second. This goes deep."

M: Yeah, yeah. That's more than just like, a plea. That's like, "Okay, that's a little desperate." [C and G laugh]

G: I mean, I think "On the Head of a Pin" is like, it is the first episode in this season that, like, starts with angels in the like, teaser portion of the episode, you know? Like, before the splash screen, it was Cas. Like, Cas, was the opening of this episode. And, like, you know, I think, that sets the tone of what the episode would be, which is, it's bigger than Sam and Dean. Like, it's not about them. And like, I like that. I like that. [M: Right, right.] Yeah. Should we talk about Destiel? I feel like we should. Or shouldn't we? [laughs]

C: We could talk about Destiel. Though, okay, wait, there's something that I forgot to mention when we were talking about the Cas arc that probably doesn't matter, but I think the contrast between Cas's absolute coldness towards the Novak family in 4.20, and then him turning around and deciding to save the world and humanity is something that I wish they'd smoothed over a little bit. [G: Yeah.] And I know he was just recently brainwashed by Heaven, so that's probably part of it. But like, I feel like 4.20 could have been a really good opportunity to show like, "Okay, when Cas first possessed Jimmy, like, he traumatized Claire for life by going, 'I'm not your father' and then fucking off forever. But like, maybe now that he's had more time on earth, he's talked to Dean, like, he's learned to care about humanity more." Like, maybe when he repossesses Jimmy and leaves Amelia and Claire, like, just like, one word of comfort, or like, one look or something, and it would like, show that he's changed as a person, in like, how he cares about people, and like, that would be a better lead-in to him like, deciding not to end the world in 4.22. [G: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.] But we don't get that, and I feel like that could have probably fixed most of my issues with the Cas arc in Season 4,

G: 4.20 Cas is like, I don't know. He's like, he DGAF. [C: Yeah.] He absolutely does not care about the Novaks. And then, you know, we go to 4.21, and he's looking at Dean in that crazy scene like, "Oh my god, Dean, I'm saurr sad." [C laughs] And it's like, it is a bit like, of a jarring thing if you- especially if you like, are watching for the Cas. [C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.] It's like, "Oh, what the Hell?"

C: Yeah. I also just find, like, "He didn't end the world because he wanted to fuck that one guy" [laughs] as like, not a particularly interesting idea to me.

G: Well, I think it's so interesting. [C and G laugh] I think it's so funny.

C: Anything that points to him having larger values around the sanctity of life or whatever the fuck, I would like.

G: I mean, as I said in our 4.22 episode, like, I don't want to overstate how much Dean influenced Cas to stop the Apocalypse, but I also don't want to understate it. [C: Yeah, yeah. It matters.] Like, it does matter. It's not the only thing that matters, but it does. [C: It's a main thing, yeah.] Yeah. But yeah. I think our next part is- well, Crystal, you're supposed to discuss the thing. [M laughs]

C: Wait, what thing?

G: Like, where's the fucking spreadsheets, right?

C: Oh, is that now? Okay. But you said, "Should we talk about Destiel?" and then we didn't talk about Destiel.

G: You're right! Well, do we have anything to say about Destiel? I mean, like, for me, honestly-

C: They do want to fuck each other. It is true. I did see it on my screen, how they wanted to fuck each other. I don't know that they're romantically into each other yet, but they do want to fuck each other.

G: I think I am just surprised that- 'Cause, you know, when you're in the fandom a lot, you interface with Destiel a lot, so there is a tendency to be like-

C: Yeah, "Maybe you're overstating it" or whatever.

G: Yeah, like, we are in a community where we are engaging with it in this way, so of course we're going to, you know? But seeing the show and the Destiel scenes with the context of the show, it's like, "No, it is real. Like, it is happening on my screen." And it is a bit of a shock, even if I knew it was gonna be there that it was really there, the intensity that it was in. So that's all I have to say, really.

C: Manika, do you have Season 4 Destiel thoughts?

M: All I have to say is that they tried to tell them that it wasn't happening, and girl, [C: It was.] the one thing that they don't do is look back at the source! Because if it's one thing [claps], the Supernatural fans will do, [claps] is they will revisit. [C: Yeah.] They revisit, okay? They will cite their sources. Alright, you put it in the show. You wrote the show. [C laughs] Lots of people who were writing on Season 4 were still writing on the show [G: That's true, yeah.] until Season 10, Season 11, and those same people would go into conventions and laugh or chuckle at the even mention of Destiel. [C laughs] I am a firm believer that like, maybe you shouldn't bring up ships around actors 'cause they could feel uncomfortable. But you couldn't tell us it wasn't happening because you wrote the show. [G: Yeah.] You wrote the line, sir! We're not dumb!

C: Okay, do we think it was an acting or a writing thing that carried Destiel in Season 4? Like, do you think that there's a character that could have the same lines that Cas has-

G: [laughs] I mean, here's my hot take. I think it's the directing. [laughing] I think Robert Singer did this! [C laughs]

C: The blocking? Honestly, yeah, I'm on your side with that one, yeah.

G: Like, I think it's just like, this is where they stand. This is how they-

C: They didn't have to stand that close. Robert Singer was like, "Few inches closer. Go."

G: [laughs] No, yeah. Like, a lot of the times when we talk about Destiel in Season 4 specifically, it's about the blockings. It's about the vibe of the scene, how the scene looks in comparison to other scenes in the show of the season. Like, something I say a lot about Season 4 Destiel is like, a lot of it is so quiet. A lot of it like, happens at night, in the privacy of anything else. And the reason why is because they're trying to make Cas mysterious and, like, you know, specifically like, mysterious and talking to Dean. But the way it comes off is like- I don't even know. Like, they're just hanging out.

C: Yeah. At night, in the dark, standing very close to each other.

-

C: Okay, so I guess let's start with the tab on the spreadsheet that I call "Writer Sins" [laughs], which is our misogyny, racism, and homophobia stats. So under misogyny, the episode we ranked as the most misogynistic was "Lucifer Rising," written by and directed by Eric Kripke, which we gave 4 misogyny points for-

G: Really? Because it ends the Ruby story? Is that why?

C: Yeah, 'cause it's the way that it ends the Ruby story. And you also had an especial aversion to the [G: Oh, the nuns.] the way that the nuns were killed in that episode. [G: Yeah.] Following that, there are three episodes that got 3 misogyny points, and those are "Monster Movie," [G: Hell yeah.] "Wishful Thinking," [G: Hell yeah.] and "The Monster at the End of This Book." So yeah.

G: Yeah. I can't believe we put "Wishful Thinking" at three! We should've got that higher, but oh well.

C: We should have. We should have put it higher. I think I think we got more liberal with our points after we came back from RubbishPod because we weren't as inundated in the Supernatural bullshit.

G: Yeah, yeah, you're right. We're just used to it.

C: So under racism, the episode we ranked as the most racist was "On the Head of a Pin" by Ben Edlund, which is 'cause it concludes the Uriel arc, I believe, [G: Yeah.] so that got 3 points. And then the other, [laughs] second most racist episode [G, laughing: It's so funny.] was "Heaven and Hell," which had 2 points, and I think that's also because the way they treated Uriel as a character.

G: And Ruby's-

C: Right, and also when Ruby possessed a Black maid and the director's choice [G: The way that was directed was-] Yeah.

M: Oh, that was weird.

G: It was very odd, yeah.

C: They were like, "Suddenly, she is sassy in a new way." And it's like, "Interesting. Why is that?"

G: Yeah, like, Ruby has been in two- three vessels at that point, right? And it's like, "Well, why is this the only one that's different? What's that about?"

C: Yeah. And then for homophobia, obviously, our winner winner chicken dinner is [with G] "It's a Terrible Life" by Sera Gamble.

G: [laughing] I love it!

C: Love it, love it. [laughs] 'Cause the whole thing was like, "Wouldn't it be gay if you had a job in an office?"

G: "Wouldn't it be funny if it was gay?" yeah.

C: Yeah, yeah. And after that, we don't have a 4 points of homophobia. We don't have a 3 point homophobia. The next one is a 2-point homophobia on "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" by Julie Siege because of, I think, the way that the magicians were reacting to the new one, Jeb or whatever.

G: But they were also gay.

C: Yeah, I mean, we know in our hearts that they were also in a polycule. : Oh, and also, The fucking Chief! [laughs] I forgot about The Chief! [G: Oh my god, yeah!] That's probably why.

G: You haven't been had [overlapping with C] until you've been had by The Chief.

C: Love that. And then, if we just added up everything, like, [G: Per writer?] the worst in terms of social ills was "Lucifer Rising," which we gave 5 total points. Also, not one of our categories, but of course we gave 4.21 5 points for ableism [G laughs] for the way they treated Sam's addiction. [G: Horrible.] So it is also pretty bad. In terms of writers themselves, this is a fun season because there's no one-off writers like, at all. [G: Yeah.] In Season 3, we still had guest writers. In Season 4, it's like, the team. [G: Yeah.] Eric Kripke, Sera Gamble, Jeremy Carver, Kathryn Humphrys, Ben Edlund, the Dabb-Loflin duo, which will become a Dabb solo thing eventually, right? And Julie Siege.

G: Eventually, but still a long time from now.

C: Yeah. For our writers, our most misogynistic writer is Eric Kripke, who had an average of 2 2/3 misogyny per episode over his 3 episodes. He is also our most racist writer, [C and G laugh] with 1 1/3 average racism points per episode.

M: Lord. Lord, if you guys- [C laughs] [C: Yeah?] I just wanna speak on that real quick. [C: Yeah. Yes.] I feel like that hasn't changed.

G: The Boys?

M: Yeah. [C: Oh, tell me more.] Because if you look at the recent casting for The Boys, and like, they're adding like, two women to the cast, and one's a Black woman, one's a white woman. And they're supposed to be like, the new antagonists. So now I'm sitting here like, "Okay." If you don't know anything about The Boys, if you haven't been watching it, I'm like, "Okay, so, you really setting us up [C and G laugh] to do this, and yet Homelander will still live? Is that it? Like, what's it gonna take? Hello?"

C: Yeah, I haven't seen The Boys. Who's Homelander?

G: It's a main character, right? Or am I completely lying.

M: Homelander- Yeah, he is one of the main characters.

C: I thought the main character was an Asian woman?

M: So, there is an Asian woman in the show, [C: Okay.] [G: I love her.] and she is one of the main characters, but she also doesn't talk, you know, fulfilling the silent Asian trope, which we love. But Homelander is also like, the main antagonist, who for some reason doesn't die, and for some reason hasn't been killed yet. And if you've seen the meme of that one guy-

G: Of that guy, like, looking around and like, smiling, kinda. Is it that one?

M: Yeah, that's a Homelander.

C: I don't think I've seen this meme. Or the description-

G: I'll send it to you at some point, don't worry about it. [C: Okay.] And you will recognize it immediately.

C: Mm-hm. In terms of homophobia, our most homophobic writer is, of course, [with G] Sera Gamble! Because of what happened in "It's a Terrible Life". So she has an average of one homophobia point per her 4 episodes. But that's just 'cause we gave her 4 points at one time. [G, laughing: Love that.] So for like, totals, Eric Kripke is the worst, an average of 4 writer sins per episode, which means that he committed 12 throughout the season, which is quite a few. And then runner-ups for worst writers in terms of social ills are Ben Edlund, average of 3 1/3 points total for his 3 episodes, and then Julie Siege, who had an average of 2 2/3 points for her 3 episodes. So yeah. [G: Love that.] That is the state of things. Huh, if we want to have a comparative look between seasons 4 and 3, there are more points in Season 4 than Season 3. [G: But Season 3 is so short.] Like, our worst writer in Season 3- Well, this is averages. Our worst overall writer in Season 3 was Ben Edlund, who had 2 2/3 average points per episode. So comparing to the 4 points max in Season 4 with Eric Kripke, either we've gotten looser with our points-giving or they've gotten worse as people. [laughs]

G: Okay, IMDb. Did I win? Did I lose? What's the situation?

C: You lost. [laughs]

G: Are you serious?

C: You lost.

G: That's so sad!

C: I know. This never happens.

G: Wait, I'm going to go to our doc right now- This is so horrible! Well, why did I lose? What's the situation?

C: Okay so, why did you lose? I guess for the two of us, we each only guessed one episode correctly for the IMDb score. I guessed "The Rapture" correctly, and you guessed "Monster at the End of This Book" correctly. [G: Yeah.] For our most off guesses, for "In the Beginning" you guessed it was an 8.4 on IMDb. It is a 9.2, so I think that did a lot of damage to you. [G: Yeah.] You also, guessed "Metamorphosis" a lot higher, you guessed "Great Pumpkin" a lot higher, same with "Criss Angel," and then you guessed "Heaven and Hell" a lot lower. So I feel like those were the main hits that you took. I was 0.7 points off on "Metamorphosis"; I thought it was ranked higher than it was, and I also thought that "Criss Angel" was more beloved and that "Yellow Fever" was less beloved, so those were my major points off. [G: Yeah.] But basically, your absolute difference, on average, from the IMDb score was 0.332 and mine was 0.314, so I was closer [G laughs] than you were by a smidgen, [G: Boo.] though really, the real winner of the season was Danica, who only guessed on one episode, "Lazarus Rising" and was off by 0.2. [G laughs] So her average offness is 0.2 points, which is a lot better than both of ours.

G: I love it! Yeah. [C: But yeah.] What is the surprise episode here? I think "When the Leevee Breaks-" "When the Levee Breaks" where I'm like, "That is low. I thought it would be higher."

C: That's true. That's also a surprise episode, both of us guessed it to be at least 0.5 higher than what IMDb gave it. In terms of how each of the writers fared on IMDb, Eric Kripke was the most beloved, 9.17 average IMDb score. But that's just because he gives himself like, the finale and the first episodes and shit. And then, after that, Ben Edlund had an 8.7 av, Dabb and Lofflin, 8.63, and then Jeremy Carver, 8.6, and then Sera Gamble and Julie Siege had the worst IMDb scores with an 8.55 for Gamble and an 8.5 for Siege.

G: That's not true!

C: Oh, no, sorry! The worst, I forgot, so bad I forgot about her, [G, laughing: You're so mean!] was Cathryn Humphrys, 8.2.

G: No, but like, I think "Metamorphosis" was good. It was just not rated high.

C: Yeah, it just was not rated high. "Sex and Violence" was not very good-

G: "Sex and Violence" was interesting. It's also just not rated high.

C: It was not very good.

-

G: Okay, so, for our final bit, we need to rank Season 4 in comparison to all the other season. So currently, our ranking is 1, 2, 3. [C: Right, yeah.] Where's Season 4? Do we think- I think Season 4 is better than 2 and 3, for sure. Do we think it's better than Season 1?

C: It's been so long. Like, I don't know.

G: Honestly, I think Season 1 is better.

C: Than Season 4? Okay. [G: Yeah.] I am inclined to rate Season 4 higher just because I don't remember Season 1 so good, and also, it had like, [laughs] "Bugs" and the racist truck and all that shit in it. Like, I feel like there were probably some real clunkers in Season 1. [G: Okay.] There were also some real clunkers in Season 4, though, so I don't know.

G: I think we shouldn't think of it as individuals. We should think of it as a whole. Is Season 4 as a whole better than Season 1 as a whole? And I think Season 1's better.

C: When I think of Season 1 as a whole, like, I'm thinking about like, "bad moon rising," the fic. I don't know what Season 1 is outside of the concepts of "bad moon rising" the fic, so, I don't know. [G laughs] I'm just gonna put Season 4 higher for now. I don't know. I don't know. I mean... No, I miss Meg. I miss Meg. No, [laughs] Season 1's better.

G: Wait. I wanna hear what Manika is going to say about this. [C: Okay.] Do you think Season 1 or 4 is better?

M: Season 4 is definitely better. [C: Okay.] [G gasps] It's found its footing, it's better writing, the characters are finally, like, being introduced to higher stakes. [G: Yeah.] There's more to lose. There's a lot more that we have to like, deal with, and there are new characters being introduced, so we don't know who's gonna last, we don't know who's gonna, you know, be in Season 5, who's gonna be written off, essentially. So Season 4 is definitely better. 'Cause Season 1 is literally like, the starting off point where they're doing just like, [G: Whatever, yeah. They're just doing whatever.] monster of week and trying to find their dad. Yeah. Season 4 is really when Supernatural [clapping] hits the ground running. Season 4 is definitely better.

G: I think that's true if we're talking about the plot. Like, the plot does get better in Season 4. This is true. 'Cause in Season 1, they really were just fucking around.

C: Yeah, they were fucking around, occasionally thinking about their dad

G: I think Season 1, vibes-wise... I don't know! Like, I mean, on one hand, Season 4 is where Cas shows up, so that is important to me in that way. But Season 1, I feel like, it's like, Season 1 Sam and Dean, I like them the most. [laughs] What do you think? Honestly-

C: I'm being swayed by Manika a little bit. [G: Well.] Yeah, like, the monster of the week format in Season 1 is kind of tiring.

G: No, the thing is, when we were watching Season 1, we hated it. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] But it's like, a good season to look back on, [laughs] if you're not rewatching it. Okay.

C: Right. So it's only good in the mind and not on the screen?

G: [laughing] Okay, I think maybe we should put Season 4 up because I did just say that Season 1 is bad on screen. [C laughs]

C: I mean, I also think Season 4 is bad on screen. [C and G laughing] Like, this isn't like a "Both are so good, I'm trying to figure it out." This is like a "Which one can I tolerate more?" thing to me.

G: Honestly, I think it's just because Season 4 is sad. Season 4 is a sad season, especially if you're watching it from the Sam perspective. It's very-

C: We were crying, like, every other week in Season 1, and like, we barely cried in Season 4.

G: Well that's because we were really into it! That's true.

C: So there has to be a reason we were crying so much.

G: It's because it was effective. It's because, as I said-

C: So Season 4 isn't effective?

G: No, Season 4 is effective in what it's trying to do, and it's trying to do plot. [C: Right.] Season 1 is effective in what it's trying to do, and it's trying to do character, I think.

C: Okay. Well.

G: Well? What if we just put them side by side? What do you think? What do you think?

C: Seems like the coward's way out to me. [G laughs]

G: This is true. We're just like John Winchester for real. Well, I'll put Season 1 above. Yeah, that's my final answer.

C: For the sake of equality, I'll put Season 4 above.

G: No! Wait, we're going to have different rankings?

C: Oh, wait, was there a requirement for us to come to a BABPod consensus on this?

G: Yes. [C: Okay.] But, I mean, it's because we had a consensus in 1, 2, and 3. So we can have like, a "we're splitting off" in Season 4, just like Sam and Dean [C: Just like Sam and Dean!] in Season 5. [laughs] Yeah.

C: I still don't even know if I believe it, though. 'Cause Season 1 is so- I think of Season 1 so fondly in my mind [G: I do.], but I think that's just 'cause I haven't watched it for like, a year. [laughs] More than a year.

G: I think- yeah. [laughing] And see? Back disagreeing. Well, let's just separate. Let's tread different paths.

C: Okay, okay. Manika, you said that Season 3 is sort of like, your fave, though, right?

M: I like Season 3 just because it's fun. But Season 4, arguably, is the best.

C: Got it. Okay, so our ranking- Well, my ranking right now is Season 4, then 1, then 2, then 3. Grey's is 1, 4, 2, 3. What are your rankings for the first four seasons of Supernatural?

M: I would probably say, if I had to rank them, it would be 4, 3, 1, and 2. [C: Mm.]

G: 4, 3, 1, and 2. [M: Yeah.] That's fascinating. You really like Season 3.

M: Yeah, I do! I mean, I feel like Season 3 has the most like, fun, meta episodes, and ir doesn't really take itself too seriously. But also, like, it was in the middle of the '07 writer's strike and only has 16 episodes, so they were just kinda doing whatever. [C and G: Yeah.]

C: I do think that like, "Ghostchasers-" or no. It's "Ghostfacers"? Yeah. [M: "Ghostfacers," yeah.] I think that "Ghostfacers" and like, "Mystery Spot" are definitely a good, fun time. I think that the last few episodes of Season 3 were quite underwhelming, and that's probably what caused us to dislike it so much by the end. But I mean, like, Bela was there. Like, that was fun. [G: Yeah.] Wait, why don't you like Season 2?

G: I mean, it's nothing against Season 2 or anything like that, you know. Like, let me ask you, what did you think of Season 2? And I'll give you my answer.

G: Horrible! We hated it.

C: Yeah, I felt pretty annoyed during a lot of it. I feel like they just did a bad job with the overarching plot, I think, where they just completely dropped the psychic kids thing-

G: It was really good when it started.

C: Yeah, yeah, like, 2.01 was a banger. We hated 2.02 because of the ableism.

G: Actually, it was also really good when it ended, I feel like. [M: Hm.] [C: Was it?] So why did we not like it? [laughs]

C: Was it good when it ended? [G: AHBL?] How good was AHBL, though? Like, did we like it that much? I mean, they treat Jake horribly. That's like, the main thing I remember about it.

G: I mean, I don't know. But again, Supernatural is very much a show where it's good in retrospect. So like, now that we're thinking about it, it's like, "OMG, it was real good. Like, what did we not like about it?"

C: I mean, is it? Was it real good? Like, I remember "Simon Said," which I did not like. 2.01 was really good. AHBL, like, the main things I remember about that are like, being mean to Jake and then John Winchester rising from Hell [G laughs], clapping Dean on the shoulder, and then disappearing into Heaven. [G: Yeah.] I think I liked Jo and "No Exit," like, her presence, and, like, Ellen's presence was something good in Season 2. But I was frustrated that they didn't develop the overarching plot very well.

G: Yeah. Season 2, like, everything just entered, like, at the end. There was no buildup in the middle of the season. But I would say that it's kind of like, again, the vibes situation. Like, I like the vibe of like, "Sam and Dean are here, and their dad just died, and they're trying to find their way around the world with that." And I think Sam's character arc that season was interesting, of like, "I hate Dad!" And then, like, he dies, and it's like, "Well, he was right, probably." And Dean's, you know, experiencing the opposite of that arc, and I was really into that.

M: Yeah. I feel that. I think the reason why I'm not a huge fan of Season 2, 'cause if I have to put it up against the fourth seasons, I'm just gonna say Season 2 is maybe not like- I don't wanna say it's bad [G: But it's weak, yeah.] but it's a little weaker, you know? They introduce the chase for Azazel, and that's interesting. And then they bring in Bobby, who I love. And then there's like, the complex prophecy behind Sam's destiny leaking into like, other children with special abilities. Like, you mentioned, there's an episode where, like, the brother- That's in Season 2, right? Where the brother has the mind control. [C: Yeah.] That's also the same season. So Season 2 is kind of like, trying to continue on with Season 1, but they can't really do monster of the week because you're still introducing new things, you're trying to follow, like, a storyline, and there's supposed to be like, something we're chasing at the end of the season, all this other stuff. So I think that Season 2 is really when Supernatural is trying to build something more [G: Yeah.] out of what the show really is, and they're just first finding their footing. So it's just kind of like, the first start. The first step, I guess I would say.

G: It feels a little bit like a bridge season, I understand.

M: Almost, yeah.

G: I think that's how I feel about Season 3 more, and that's why I didn't like it as much. But yeah, I mean, I don't think you can blame that necessarily on Season 3 due to the circumstances in which it was created, you know?

C: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Season 3, I didn't like it very much because it's just like, the season where they try to prevent Dean from going to Hell, but I know he's going to Hell anyway.

G: Yeah, I feel like it would be much more effective if you didn't know that, you know. Like, if you're like, "Oh my god, he really does go to Hell at the end? What the hell?" So yeah. [C: You're right.]

So that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be, I don't know, like- [C: 5.01?] Well, we will be doing Season 5, Episode 1. What's that called? Whatever it's called. [laughs] What is it called? 5.01...

C: It's "Sympathy for the Devil."

G: Yeah, well, we're doing that. But before we leave, Manika, do you wanna tell the audience where to find you, how to contact you- "contact you" [laughs], but yeah.

M: Yeah! Yeah! You guys could find me- you can look up my podcast I've Been Meaning to Watch That, and you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can find my podcast, you know, where you listen to podcasts, you can follow us on TikTok. Definitely check out our YouTube 'cause we upload highlights, like, at least twice or three times a week, and we have a full video version of the podcast up every Monday afternoon. And you can find me on TikTok at my first name 3000 [@manika3000] and follow me on there 'cause I like to talk about movies and TV shows and do analysis on TikTok. And that's about it. Thank you so much for having me on, guys. This was really great.

G: Yeah! Thank you so much for coming here!

C: Yeah! It was so good having you, yeah! [G: Yeah!] [M: Yes!]

Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: Yeah. You can email us at bustyasianbeautiespod@gmail.com. See you guys next time! [C and G] Bye!

[guitar music]

[imaginemalereader]

Requested by @daredevil-1910​ : Imagine you and Ginny having feelings for each other and confessing them

“Are you ever going to tell her?”

“You know I want to but we’re friends and I don’t want to ruin that.”

Hermione sighed. This was a conversation the two of you had had numerous times. At first she had agreed with you, but now it was getting to be a bit ridiculous. You clearly liked Ginny and from what she could tell, Ginny felt the same way but neither of you wanted to make the first move. And as much as she wanted to meddle and tell you both to just suck it up and ask already, she knew it wasn’t her place. Besides, if she was wrong then it really would be awful to have ruined that friendship.

Fortunately, she was right and Ginny was more confident than you.

The four of you - Harry, Ron, Hermione, and you - were spending a typical evening walking the grounds. Hermione was talking with you about classes, and Ron and Harry were trying to get you to talk about anything else.

When you stepped inside, as it was getting too dark to be outside any longer, Ginny was outside the Great Hall.

“Hey,” she greeted you all, “could I borrow [Y/N] for a moment? I’ve got something I need to ask.”

“I thought Hermione was the person to answer any question.” Ron teased.

“Just because I pay more attention in class than you Ron doesn’t mean I have all the answers.” She retorted. “We’ll see you both later.”

With that she began ushering Ron and Harry away toward the Gryffindor dormitories.

“What did you want to ask?” 

“Well, not here. Come on.” She said, realizing how public a space you were in at the moment. She began walking and you tried to make small talk about quidditch as you walked, though it was obvious you both were nervous. Her because she was worried about your answer to her question and you because you didn’t know why she wanted to talk to you. You had a hope of course but you weren’t so idealistic as to expect that was her reason.

Eventually you found yourselves at the top of the clock tower overlooking the courtyard.

“This is rather a lot of privacy. What’s so important we had to come all the way up her?” You asked, standing at the glass looking through the clock.

Ginny hesitated, looking from you to the window to the floor. 

“I don’t know if you noticed, Fred and George said I was being obvious, but sometimes I think I act funny around you. And it’s because I like you. More than as a friend. And I don’t know what I’m supposed to do or if you like me too.”

You laughed. You felt really bad, but you laughed.

“I’m sorry.” You managed to get out. “Not laughing...at you...hold on....whoo okay.” 

You got your laughter under control and tried to help Ginny not look so confused and upset.

“Hermione has been teasing me for weeks about how I act around you and asking when I’m going to tell you I like you. She even thought you liked me back but I didn’t believe her.”

Ginny’s confusion turned to a smile as you explained.

“She’s going to tell us we’re so stupid when we tell her this.”

“She is right.”

“We’re never going to hear the end of it. At least Ron and Harry won’t have noticed either.”

“They are a bit thick about all this aren’t they?” Ginny laughed.

“More than a bit I think.”

You two laughed a bit more before turning toward the stairs so you could head to your rooms.

“So does this mean we’re, I don’t know, together?” You asked.

“I hope so.”

“Okay good, me too.”

[hnychn]

𝐒𝐏𝐈𝐓 𝐅𝐈𝐑𝐄

pairing: poly! bakusquad x gn! reader

summary: why settle for one lover when you could have five? 

𝐧𝐨𝐭𝐞 🐝: ugh i love the idea of all five of these assholes in one relationship !! it just makes my heart 😫. lmk what you thought of it, i appreciate any constructive criticism that'll help me improve 🤍 i'm also working on a shoto work next so!! PS. this ended up being a lot longer than i thought, so i'll be making it into diferent parts!

𝐦𝐚𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐥𝐢𝐬𝐭 || 𝐩𝐚𝐫𝐭 𝐭𝐰𝐨 || 𝐩𝐚𝐫𝐭 𝐭𝐫𝐞𝐞

ur their baby

sorry

don't make the rules 🤷🏻‍♀️

so first and foremost, how you became a part of their relationship.

surprisingly, it was bakugo who brought up the idea to the others 😳

you're not in 1a, but you are in the support class. you make them gadgets 😌

and bakugo met you when the last student who was supposed to be responsible for his costume design and other shit refused to work with bakugo anymore

that was the sixth guy to quit

so you offered to pick up his work 😌

otherwise the storyline wouldn't continue

so bakugo goes to you after school and is like, "listen here you fucking extra-"

and that's as far as he got before you interrupted him and was like:

"no yOU listen you hot-headed cyndaquil! the only reason you should be talking to me is if you want to submit a request for your costume. other than that, don't look at me. don't speak to me. don't even breathe near me. GOT IT?!"

and he was just. . .😳 damn

highkey thought your yelling was hot

so the weeks pass and surprisingly he listens to you and doesn't speak to you outside of making requests for his costume or giving feedback

and your relationship with him is relatively stable

you're not friends but you can live together without ripping each other apart

there's a term for it but i forget what it is

he starts coming by more often because there's a kink in one of your gadgets

so you ask him to stay after school to test it out and figure out what the problem is

you end up talking

and you realise he's not as much of an asshole as you thought he was

and your relationship turns into more of a "friendship" but not if that makes sense?

like, "ok so i don't hate you, but i still hate you."

does that make sense? i how it does

anyways,

the two of you start saying hi in the halls or nodding at each other

bakugo's babies see this and are like ??

yOU MADE A FREND??

yes. yes he did 😌

so kirishima and mina try and convince him to introduce them to you

"why would i introduce you to that dumbass? they're nothing special."

he doesn't mean it, he's just flustered.

so kirishima, mina, kaminari, and sero start looking out for you in the halls

and they start picking up on your routine

without knowing they basically know your schedule

it's bakugo who points it out when kirishima said it was time to go

🦈 "oh! it's time to go guys!"

💥 "why? lunch isn't even over yet"

⚡️ "y/n usually goes to that vending machine by their art class during this time"

💥 ". . . how do you fuckers know that?"

and they're all silent like. . . how do they know that?

that's when it hits then that without them knowing, you slipped your way into their heart

because here they were,

right next to the vending machine where you always go 20 minutes before lunch ended to get a small snack

and when you get there and see bakugo surrounded by a bunch of people looking at you with starry eyed

". . . hi?"

mina lunges at you and asks how the hell you tamed bakugo

"easy, i beat his ass."

"NO YOU DIDN'T YOU FUCKER!"

and you just snort at his reaction and put some coins into the vending machine

"why do you think your gauntlet backfired yesterday, dumbass?"

and he blanks like. . .wait. . . wAIT A MINUTE

"THAT WAS YOU?!"

you nod, "wish i was there to see it though."

and you pout

fUCKING.

POUT.

and they all just feel their heart go doki doki

so the bell rings for class to start and you say goodbye to them and kaminari promises to show you the video he took of bakugo's gauntlet backfiring tmr at lunch

and while they're walking to class, none of them are talking

which is very unusual

but they all know their thoughts are only of you

it's kind of like an unspoken agreement that they're all falling for you

they have a hard time paying attention in class that day.

OK NEXT DAY!!

so you rush over to the bakusquad and practically throw yourself at kaminari

because you wanna see that video

you don't notice he's a blushing mess and the others are staring a bit bitterly because

:I i want that

so he shows you the video and you start laughing so hard

and it's so contagious and soon they're all laughing

except bakugo because he refuses to laugh at himself

but they suddenly hear someone calling your name

and you all look over and see some guy who's also from general studies

they see you roll your eyes and mutter, "fucking hell" under your breath

so it's safe to assume you don't like this guy.

"hey l/n."

"hey tanaka. . ."

the boy shoves his hands in his pockets, "so about that date saturday-"

you might have slapped the bakusquad in the face with a fish because holy-

they never considered you were seeing anyone and now they're kinda heartbroken because oop-

caught feelings too quick 🙊

but you grind your teeth, "it's not a date tanaka. the teacher paired us up for a project because he knows you're so incapable of doing anything on your own you have to be watched like a child."

anD WHOO BOY THEY WERE NOT EXPECTING THAT

kaminari snorts a bit before slapping a hand over his mouth

mina grabs kirishima's arm and burries her face into his jacket to stifle her laughs

kirishima and sero and just staring at each other with wide eyes and slowly growing smiles like "bro did they just say that?" "dude i think they did!"

and bakugo. . .

he's staring at you with the proudest look in his eyes and a smirk because yeah, that's his baby

wait what.

now the boy is a bit embarrassed that you said that in front of some of the school's top heroes

so he sputters a bit before walking away with a red face

💥 "damn i didn't know you had that in you, spit fire."

you stare at him a bit with a small blush at the nickname

and you sputter out a thanks before making an excuse to leave (something about banana milk)

and they all stare at each other

⚡️ ". . .did they . ."

🦈 "was that a-"

🍊 "holy fuck that was-"

💥 "-adorable."

mina is took shocked to say anything

during this time, you bang to realise your feelings for the group as well

but you thought you were being selfish for wanting all five of them

so you kind of avoid them for the next few days in hopes of your feelings going away

you change up your schedule

and when you see them or one of then in the halls you turn around and go another direction

they were a bit confused as to what they did

but kirisima assured them that you were probably just working out your feelings and they should respect that

so they did

and they pretended it didn't hurt when you suddenly dart the other way when you see one of them

they gave you your space

and they thought you would come to them when you had everything worked out

until bakugo cane storming into the dorms one day

he was obviously pissed, but his eyes were also a bit glossy

so they all dragged him to kirishima's room since it was closest and asked him was was wrong

💥 "that dumbass quit from making my items."

and they were all kind of shocked

like wtf ??

uhm, for why?

you had assured bakugo that you wouldn't be another one of those losers who resigned because of his eccentric personality

and yet here we are

they spend the rest of the night in kirishima' room comforting bakugo

because he really took it the hardest

like sure the others liked you too,

but bakugo spent the most time with you

and developed a deeper relationship with you than the others

so the next day,

kirishima wants to talk to you

so he goes to the support room and bumps into hatsume as she was walking out

he asks her if you're in

"oh, yeah they are, I'll go get them for you."

this is a lot longer than i thought it would be uhhh oops

so you come out, not knowing it was kirishima asking for you because hatsume was vague

only telling you, "someone wants to talk to you"

like ok specifics??

anyways

you're like. . . oop heyyy. . .

because you knew what he was there for

the two of you don’t say anything for a bit

you’re just staring at your shoes and he’s looking at you with a small frown on his face 

lowkey he’s kinda disappointed in you

so he finally speaks first

“you quit.” 

it’s not a question, or something you were expecting 

but you nod 

there’s another silence 

“why?” 

you fiddle with your fingers for a bit. 

now this was a question you were expecting, though, you didn’t want to answer 

kirishima is a patient boy though, and waits for you to gather the courage to tell him 

he’s not leaving without an answer

“i just-” you begin, “i. . .” 

kirishima is still waiting patiently for your answer 

“i don’t want to be selfish.” 

now he surprised. wdym selfish. please explain.

“it’s just- you all already have such an established relationship and i don’t want to interrupt that. you guys have a schedule. adding myself into the mix would only mess all of that up, and no matter how strong my feelings are for all of you, i could never mess up your relationship like that. it would be so selfish of me to put my feelings before all of yours, so i thought the only way to get rid of these feeling as to distance myself from all of you...” 

“starting with bakugo...” kirishima whispered after your rambling came to an end. 

you nodded 

kiri was at a stand still for a bit 

and it was silent once again in the hall

kiri knew his lovers had feelings for you too, and would have no problem adding you into the relationship, 

but he also knew he couldn’t fore you into anything 

he was about to reassure you that you wouldn’t be interrupting anything and that they would love to have you in the relationship 

but then you were tackled 

to the ground 

by kaminari 

and smacked your head against the floor

really hard

like, you passed out 

ahaha. . .

when you wake up, your head feels like it’s going to split open

and the loud voices aren’t helping 

so you let out a groan, “shut the fuck up...” 

and everything goes silent. 

until someone SCREAMS AGAIN

“YOU’RE AWAKE!” 

it’s kaminari 

bless his soul

poor baby is a bit slow 

so you groan out again and clutch your head

bakugo slaps the back of kaminari’s head

“shut the fuck up, dunce face!” 

he whisper shouts

mina hands you some pain killers recovery girl said you give you when you woke up, and sero hands you a glass of water 

they’re all watching you as you take the pills 

it’s silent for a bit 

and it’s making you anxious, so you fiddle with the empty glass for a bit before bakugo snatches it from you, 

“dumbass...” he muttered as he refilled it and handed it back to you

sero rubs the back of his head, “so...” 

mina pulls at the hem of her sweater, “we heard everything you said to kirishima.” 

kaminari sits next to you on the bed and whispers, “sorry for tackling you. i just got a bit emotional...” 

I'm so sorry this is getting so long 😭😭 i'm trying to wrap this up so if it gets a bit jumbled, my bad

so they all reassyre you you're more than welcome into their relationship and wouldn't be interfering with anything

so you agree

and they're all so happy 🥳🥳

and while everyone is celebrating

(quietly because your head still feels like shit)

bakugo comes up to you

"you better start making my items again, dumbass. those other dipshits in your class don't know what they're doing."

bakugo only said that because they weren't you but he'd never outright say that to you

OK ITS OVER OH MY

IT GOT SO LONG IM SO SORRY LMAO

[drakenology]

Operation Deku Day- Izuku Midoriya

author’s note: hiiii! so today’s inspiration is drunk sex. anyone who’s ever had drunk sex before knows that shit hit different. Something about it is soo nasty and hot ugh I’m a sucker. I firmly believe that izuku is an insatiable sex god don’t let that innocent sweetness fool you so he was the perfect candidate for my idea. please enjoy! all characters are aged up 18 +

warnings: cussing, smut!, alcohol use, breeding kink? and sex under the influence. also light degradation

summary: For Izuku’s 21st birthday you and the girls decide to throw him a surprise birthday party. As the night progressed, you and Izuku got real drunk and couldn’t keep your hands off each other... in more ways than one. 

word count: 2.4k

You spent all week preparing for this surprise party for Izuku. It was his birthday and you really wanted him to feel special and appreciated for being a great friend and loving boyfriend. You were pretty good at pretending that all the things you snuck home were just “things for the apartment” instead of decorations and all his favorite foods for the party. Bakugo being Izuku’s childhood friend couldn’t pass up on helping you and everyone from your graduating class of 1-A prep for the party, keeping everything hidden from Izuku. 

“MIND YOUR DAMN BUSINESS DEKU!” He’d yell at him if the green haired pro hero asked one too many questions. Today was finally the day to set up the party. You just had to keep everything hidden for a little while longer. You woke Izuku up with kisses and a plate of his favorite breakfast. He’d always loved pancakes but for whatever reason, he loved your waffles. Izuku could eat them for dinner if you’d let him. He smiled and ate his food, gushing about how he’s finally 21. 

“I can drink with you now, Y/N.” He said with a mouthful of waffles. You grinned and kissed him on the cheek as he ate. “So, what are we doing today?” He asked. Even though today was his birthday, the hero still had to work. 

“Oh.. uhm.. well.” You struggle to tell Midoriya that you had “nothing planned” knowing that he’d be hurt by that. 

“Maybe we could just go out to the bar and have a few drinks?” You lie, wincing at the upcoming disappointment in his voice. He nodded with a weak smile, trying not to seem too disappointed at the lazy plans. But he was grateful anyways and kind of excited to see the bar scene. After eating his birthday breakfast, he stood up from the bed and got ready for the day. While he was in the bathroom you text the mass group chat with the entire class in it named “Operation Deku Day!” Mina had already been messaging you all throughout the morning reminding everyone that the party starts at 9 pm; right when Izuku is expected to be home. 

“So what kind of cake does he like? I’m at the bakery right now.” Todoroki texts followed by an image of the options of cake the menu had. 

“Get him chocolate.” You text, giggling at the plan all coming together nicely. You wait for a response while looking at all the gifs and memes everyone’s sending sharing the same excitement for the party.

“Cool. I’ll have them decorate it and drop it off at your place, Y/N. Just let me know when Midoriya leaves.” Shoto texts back, you responding with an Ok and answering any questions about the party from the others. 

“Your phone’s going off a lot today, Y/N. Who are you talking to?” Izuku asks, his hips adorning a towel as he just got out of the shower. You look his wet body up and down, almost forgetting to respond to the question before he gets too curious.

“OH! Uh, It’s just the girls. Yaoyorozu wished you a happy birthday.” You laugh nervously, clearly awful at keeping secrets. Izuku just smiles and tells you to tell her he said thank you and got dressed in his hero costume. 

“Well, I’m off. I love you Y/N. I’ll see you later tonight.” Izuku says giving you a small peck on the lips as he leaves your shared apartment. You wave goodbye as he shuts the door and jumped up from your bed, texting the group chat

 “THE EAGLE HAS LEFT THE NEST. OPERATION DEKU DAY IS AGO.” 

Momo, Mina and Uraraka spend all day decorating the house and setting the ambiance for the party. Todoroki brought the cake and put it in the fridge and starting making a small ice sculpture in the shape of All Might for the spiked punch he made (He was known for making a good cocktail). Kyoka made a playlist for the party, she was the DJ afterall. She tweaked the stereo so the sound system would be JUMPIN and laughed maniacally as she knew she was gonna rock the fucking house down. Katsuki insisted on cooking since “You can’t cook half as good as he can.” Or at least that’s what Katsuki said. He handed a hot dish of buffalo chicken dip (my favorite) to Mineta, who insisted on helping with... idk something.

“It’s hot on the bottom, idiot. If you drop my dip I’m gonna drop my fucking fist down your throat.” Bakugo shouts, making Mineta nervous as he walks carefully with the dish. Sero and Yaoyorozu were putting the finishing touches on the decorations as you check the clock on your phone. Shit. It was 8:59. You see a text you received from Izuku 30 minutes ago saying he was on his way home and another from just now saying he’s coming upstairs. You squeal and start panicking. He was probably already on your floor. 

“Everybody ready? Izuku’s home!” You yell over everyone’s excited chatter. Everyone replied in a harmonious yes and took their places. You run towards the door and adjust your strapless dress, turning off the lights. You stand behind the houseplant by the door and almost squeal in excitement as you hear the door click unlocked. 

“Y/N?” You hear Izuku say nervously as he turned on the lights. He gasps as everyone jumps out from their hiding places and yell 

“SURPISE!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY IZUKU!” 

He smiles brightly and grabs you, giving you the biggest hug while lifting you off your feet. 

“Wow, thanks everyone!” He says excitedly, looking around the room to see all his friends. He became a little emotional knowing that you all went through the trouble of planning a surprise birthday party for him. You wipe his tears and give him a big fat kiss, earning an excited spin from him. 

“We love you Izuku. Now, let’s enjoy your party!” You said as you let him to the delicious spread of food to start Izuku off. Kyoko started the music and danced along to the beat to get everyone to join in on the fun. Mina pulled Uraraka towards the living to dance with her as she waved Asui over to join in. Shoto manned the punch bowl, serving everyone with a half smile hoping they like his punch. Midoriya walks over to grab a plate of food from Katsuki.

“Yo, Ka-Chan!” He yelled over the music. Bakugo smirks and gives the birthday boy his plate. They chat over the food and laugh together as they have a good time in each other’s company. Katsuki seemed to cease the usual teasing, just for this one special night. You giggle and run over to the dancefloor with your cup of punch in toe. You drink and dance at the same time, spilling a little bit of punch as it ran down your chin. Mina laughs and takes your hands dancing along to the beat with you. The night was young and the party was a success. You were just glad Midoriya seemed to be having a great time. 

Drink after drink you feel yourself get extremely tipsy, stumbling around with a drunk Mina and Asui. Uraraka had passed out on the couch from all the drinking and dancing. Even Momo was drunk, creating a phone to drunkenly call in some pizza since there was no more of the food Katsuki made. It was 1 am and everyone was still partying like there was no tomorrow. Including Midoriya. You had never seen this shy boy act so boldy and confidently. It was kind of a turn on. He was in a chug contest with Bakugo, seeing who out of them both could drink the most drinks the fastest. Ida, Shoto, Kirishima and Kaminari crowded around the two chanting chug chug chug as they both drank themselves into a drunken stupor. Izuku finished first, erupting into a loud and boisterous burp. Bakugo grunts and raises Izuku’s arm in the air claiming him the victor. When the hell did Katsuki EVER admit to defeat?

“ *hic* IZUKU’S THE FUCKING CHAMPION! *hic* And he’s one of my best fucking friends! I- I love you bro.” Katsuki says, slurring his speech and stuttering over his words. Midoriya winks at you, who was watching the whole thing go down from across the room. 

“L-Love you too, Kaaaachan.” Izuku slurred, stumbling over to you to give you a kiss. He wanted to celebrate his victory the right way; with a kiss from his girlfriend who was looking sexier than usual tonight. Midoriya approached you, smelling like beer and sweat as he pulled you close to him. Without warning he crashed his lips into yours, turning a sweet kiss into an intense and passionate make out session in front of the whole party. Something definitely took over in Midoriya. He was more aggressive with you than usual. You hear encouraging whoos and a jealous aww from Mineta who wished he was the one kissing you. Izuku waved him away as if he was shooing a fly and lifted you up, carrying you away from the party and into your bedroom. He shut the door with a slam, you squealing with excitement as he heatened the kiss. Izuku’s hands were all over you, groping your ass, squeezing your boobs and leaving sloppy kisses all over your neck. He was a beast, hungry for his well deserved prize. 

“Do you know what you do to me, Y/N?” Izuku asked, pulling away from the sloppy kiss as he throws you on the bed. You can’t even answer as you stare at him dumbly, still shocked at your normally sweet and gentle boyfriend turn into a lust stricken beast. He hovers over you on the bed, drinking in your body in that tight little dress you wore. Izuku feels himself stiffen at the sight of you, pulling your panties down under your dress. 

“’M gonna leave this dress on. You look so good right now, ya know that? Your tits are popping out of this little thing” Midoriya hisses, taking his calloused hand and rubbing tight circles on your already sensitive bud. You moan at his dirty words, intoxicated on his touch as you grab a pillow and cover your face with it. Izuku snatched the pillow away and threw it across the room, eager to hear your moans no matter who else was around to hear them. 

“Let everyone know how good I’m making you feel.” He said, easing two fingers inside you wet walls. You moan like a pornstar, grabbing onto Midoriya’s arm for dear life as he fingered you with a steady pace. Izuku’s eyes were glued to your face, watching you make those faces he loved to see pull on your features as he pulled your breasts out of your dress suckling on your swollen nipple. You pant, gasping at the euphoric feeling as the pit of your stomach tightened, threatening to snap as you approach a fast climax. Izuku noticed you body language automatically able to tell you’re about to cum. He quickened his pace as he watched you arch your back as you came undone before him. 

“Good girl.” Izuku coos as he takes his hand and sucked his sweet juices off his fingers. You flutter your eyes open as Izuku pulled his pants and boxers down in one swift movement, his impressive length springing out as you lick your lips at the sight. You wanted him in your mouth so you grab his dick and stroke it with a tight grip earning an eager moan from Midoriya as he grabbed your hair. 

“N-No. As much as I want you to, I have to be inside you.” He stutters, pulling your dress up over your hips. He kissed you sloppily, slipping some tongue in as you moan into the kiss. He motioned for you to bend over and you do so with excitement, wiggling your ass to tease him as he smacked it with fervor. 

“You ready for me?” Izuku asked tapping his dick against you as you nod and back yourself onto him, feeling his dick slide inside you with ease. You both moan at the feeling as Midoriya grabs your hips and thrusts harshly inside you, holding nothing back as he pulled your hair and smacked your ass. The muffled sounds of the music along with the sinful noises coating the walls of your room were all you could hear as you feel his hand reach forward to rub your clit as he brushed up against your g-spot repeatedly. You scream, trying to keep up with his swift and hard strokes as you throw your ass back on him, gripping the sheets for dear life. You’re sure everyone can hear your loud moans over all the music as you approach a second climax. 

“I’m gonna fill that pretty pussy with my cum, baby. You want me to fill you up don’t you, you filthy whore?” Izuku said, earning a frantic yes from you as you whine for him. You’re shocked at his words but more so turned on by them as you clench around him, cumming for him a second time. Izuku hissed as he rode out your orgasm, chasing his own. Soon enough, he’s coating your insides with his hot seed, grunting and moaning as he ruts into you a few more times. You whine at the loss of his dick as he pulled out of you. Izuku watched as his thick sperm dripped out of you, satisfied with the job for now. He grabbed a towel and cleaned you off sloppily, still heavily intoxicated. You giggled and grabbed your underwear and slipped them back on to rejoin the party. Izuku and you were both a visual mess. It looked as if you both just had sex, your hair was an absolute wreck, your dress was disheveled and you were missing a shoe. Izuku was just as bad, sweat glistening on his forehead and he had this big cheesy grin plastered on his face. You hoped you were both inconspicuous enough for you both to just rejoin the party as if nothing happened in your bedroom. But Mina took one look at you two and erupted into laughter. 

“You two just had sex didn’t you?!” 

[noordinaryperson-archived]

//*insert symbols for NOTPs for all your DC muses if it applies and for RPers mun admires because mobile*

From here

☒: A NOTP with your Muse in it (if you have any).

Okay.  For my DC muses?  Here we go:

Bane and Talia al Ghul.  I always saw their relationship in TDKR as more father/daughter... And I’m not touching the comic part tbh.

My Joker (1989/Burtonverse) and Harley Quinn.  Because of the way Nicholson’s Joker was written, I don’t think he would ever work with a Harley tbh.  He wouldn’t be able to handle someone trying to copycat him.

Jonathan Crane and Becky Albright.  I just don’t get it.  I don’t see it.  I’ve read Mistress of Fear, and all I took from it was that he tried to make her see that she was like him to try to ruin her.

Jonathan Crane and Jervis Tetch.  Really don’t get that one either.

The Riddler and Two-Face.  Tbh, I’m still reeling from the fact that Batman Forever actually made people ship this.

The Riddler and the Penguin.  If you’ve read my rules, you know I want nothing to do with Gotham, and tbh this ship makes no sense outside of that canon (and I’m not sure how much sense it makes in their canon either)

Mr. Freeze and anyone but Nora.  Their love is beautiful and pure and nothing will convince me otherwise.

I don’t really have NOTPs for Deadshot and Ragdoll because I haven’t done much with them, so let’s move on to Watchmen.

Rorschach and pretty much anyone.  He’s sex-averse, asexual, and I’m about 99.5% positive he’s aromantic as well.

Nite Owl II/Dan Dreiberg and Adrian Veidt-- yes, I read a fic where that was a thing.  It was weird.

Hooded Justice and Sally Jupiter/Silk Spectre I- yes, they were “publicly” a thing.  But Sally was doing whatever the female equivalent of bearding is for HJ.  There was nothing between them.   He was totally uninterested.

BUBASTIS AND ADRIAN VEIDT.  (YES THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SHIP THIS!)  NO.  JUST NO.  SHEISACAT.

As for everyone else?  I haven’t given much thought to them yet. But I suppose it won’t be long before I find some weird Dr Manhattan ship out there that makes me want to bleach my brain...  I know people ship Mothman with the other Minutemen but I’m just kinda like “meh”...  And Grace is an OC and tbh I have no ships planned for her but would love to see how she works out with people.

✉: Any RPers the Mun admires.

@multiplechoicepast, who writes so many muses so damn well that I honestly don’t know how she keeps them straight, the love of my life, and most importantly the one who bought me a cat for my birthday lol.

@babydxhl, who has stuck with the same muse for so long that I can no longer distinguish her headcanons from actual canon, and who took a character that left me wholly unimpressed and honestly made me really like her (which is a very rare feat)

@frightfortheharvest, who is the best damn Scarecrow/Jonathan Crane I have ever met, and also my closest friend in the....  God, what is it, 5 years?  4?  However long I’ve been trying to drag my corpse through the DC fandom.

@thesharpestsmile, who runs a blog that actually constantly and consistently keeps me reality-checking to be sure that an actual mun operates the blog because it could actually be the muse himself running it and no one would ever know.  Hon, you are fabulous.  Don’t ever change.

[mxpseudonym]

Three Musketeers

Pairing: Isiah Jesus x Fem!Reader x Michael Gray

Summary: Isiah makes a saucy proposal, Michael agrees for once, and you can’t help but go along.

Length: 1691 words (allegedly)

Warnings: Dangerous for work, threesome/polyamory, 

A/N: Whoo! This turned out more fun and youthful than I expected, so I hope you crack a smile and get a little flustered upon reading. 

--

"You ever sleep with someone, y/n? You've got the two of us right here." 

It was Isiah's cheekiest proposal to date and the one that started it all. 

You were the secretary taking over for Lizzie now that she was moving to Mr. Shelby's new aboveboard office. Though you were only coming up on a year at the position, your similar age and humor with Michael and Isiah made you the three musketeers. There was hardly a day you weren't all together, trying to experience as much life as one could in the smoke and mud of Birmingham. 

It had been a few months since Isiah rested his elbow on Michael's shoulder and sent you a cheeky grin that didn't fit his inherently salacious ask. Standing in your living room, blood warm from the liquid courage coursing through all of you, you turned your eyes to Michael. You expected surprise, maybe even anger, but instead, you found him waiting expectantly for your answer. 

"If you don't like it, we can stop."

It was a little awkward in the beginning, trying to figure out who was to do what. Still, you found yourself enjoying it that time and every time after. Now it was more likely than not that whenever the boys walked you home from work or the Garrison, they'd stay a while. Today was no different. 

"Your eyes get bigger when you drink. Did you know that, y/n? It's pretty. You're pretty," Isiah smiled sloppily at you. Your cheeks, already warm from the rum, turned even hotter as he kissed down your neck. 

"You don't have to sweet-talk me; I'm already here," you said with a laugh. 

Isiah pulled down your dress, letting it fall to expose your delicate underthings. He kissed down your neck, then buried his face into your shoulder as he pulled you closer into a hug.

"Y/n, don't throw away my compliments. It makes me upset," he murmured.

"This is what happens when you two start drinking rum. He goes all soft," Michael accused as he walked into the bedroom in only his boxers. 

"I do enjoy it, so it's worth the risk," you mused. Isiah mumbles something unintelligible before lowering to his knees in front of you. 

"I'm just calling it as I see it. You're incredibly sexy, y/n. I haven't to hold myself back in the office when you come in looking pretty like you do."

Isiah spoke between kisses planted on your cotton panties that he was eager to get rid of. Michael patted Isiah's head before moving behind you. 

"He's right about your eyes," Michael spoke in your ear while dipping his fingers between your bra strap and the sensitive skin beneath. "Can we take this off?" 

You nodded once, already starting to feel warmth pool in your lower belly as your garter straps were released and your bottoms were also being pulled off. You gasped as Isiah finally reached you, placing feather-light kisses up and down your slit. 

It was Michael's turn to start on your neck. Your head dropped back onto his shoulder when his hands found your breasts. He felt them in his palms, kneading them until you were sighing and aching for ample attention to your sensitive nipples. You leaned against Michael more when he suggested Isiah put your leg over his shoulder. 

"Oh god, this- ah!" A bite to your inner thigh jolted you. You looked down with wide eyes, only to see Isiah's mischievous ones. 

"Oi, watch it," Michael warned, guessing what happened. From his own experiences, Isiah could get very into biting depending on which type of liquor he drank. 

"It's okay," you stopped them. The heat rose to your face as a smile rose to Isiah's.

"You like that?" He asked, doing it again and watching your bottom lip gets pulled between your teeth. "Atta girl. She likes it, Mikey, keep going."

"Heathens, the lot of you," Michael muttered, earning a chuckle from you both. Though, as things progressed, he quickly joined you. Your nipples were pinched and rolled harder than before, paired with Isiah's greedy laps at your leaking pussy made you shiver. A stiffened tongue and bite to the neck was enough to send you over and leave you squirming against the two. 

"Absolutely beautiful, love," Michael kissed your temple. 

"To the bed?" Isiah asked though it was more of a direction. If you had to describe them, you could say Isiah pointed, and Michael drove. Isiah always made the first move, and Michael was there to support. Isiah kissed you first, and Michael played with the hem of your skirt. Isiah asked what you liked, and Michael remembered to make it happen later. Now, Isiah mentioned the bed, but Michael was the one moving you to it. Not that you minded any of this in the slightest. Ever since fully grasping that you could, in fact, orgasm several times, it had become a matter of continuing to please you.  

You laid back and watched the two men undress. They were so different even in their bodies. And yet, they were perfect when they moved together. Michael pulls Isiah to him, but it's Isiah who cups the shorter man's face and says something about you tasting good before kissing him.

It no longer surprised you to see them lean into each other. Your first night together, there seemed to be a few almost kisses, but Isiah never pursued it. You weren't a fool; you knew there was likely something between them before you came along. So, in your second encounter, you kissed Michael then looked to Isiah. 

"I know you're dying to get a taste, aren't you?" 

Now there was no stopping them. While Michael kissed you neatly and with purpose as if to send a message depending on the mood, Isiah chose enthusiasm over form. Sometimes your teeth would knock together if you weren't careful. Both made you weak in the knees. 

Together, however, they left behind any need to treat their lover delicately and moved on to devouring each other. Just before you could feel left out, Michael reached out to you blindly, leaning away from the kiss. 

"We have to let her decide who she wants this time," Michael reminded his lovers of the rules. 

There was no guarantee of who got what job. Isiah could have you seeing stars several times over if he didn't accidentally overstimulate you and end things for the night. Michael was exceptionally good at drawing out your pleasure in a way that could leave you satisfied, but ultimately nowhere near a release. It was hard to compare and say who was better, so you did the work of not overthinking and compromising. Michael smirked somewhat smugly as he went to grab a condom from your bedside table, while Isiah sighed. He'd be more upset if there were any losers in this situation.

Back on the bed, you reveled in all of the attention they gave you. You could tell whose touch was whose even when they moved in tandem. Isiah moved without any hesitation- full of enthusiasm and impulse. Michael is more calculated and deliberate, thoughtful in everything he did. With your eyes closed, you can tell it's Michael's fingers brushing over your lips and kiss your jaw, and Isiah placing wet kisses down your body, already on your shoulders. Your wrists were moved above your head, both held in one large hand, and two others pull your legs apart. 

"Don't tease," you warned as Michael moved between your legs. 

"How could I when you're this wet?" 

Still, he ran his head over you until you were whimpering before grabbing the base of his cock and sinking into you. Isiah laid next to you, propped up on one arm and stroking himself with his other hand. He leaned over you, alternating between covering your skin with wet kisses and saying the naughtiest things in your ear. 

You brought your hands up to squeeze your breasts on his command, and Michael groaned. They'd left the pub just for this, and it showed in the way he wrapped your legs around him. He pushed into you deeper, hitting the perfect spot that made your back arch.

"Michael, p-please," 

"Look at you all worked up, y/n," Isiah groaned in your ear. Knowing they were both enjoying themselves made everything more erotic. "Why don't you ask Mikey for more, love?"

"M-Micheal, Michael more." 

You were so close already, and Michael's grip on your waist tightened as his rhythm picking up brought you to the edge. Isiah kissed your cheek, then your jaw while your moans grew louder. He moved his hand from his own dripping cock to flatten on your stomach, sliding down until he could circle your clit. 

"Isiah," you said his name softly and turned your head to kiss him. His tongue slid against yours for a moment before he moved to kiss your cheek again. 

"Hm? Does it feel good? Is he stretching you out, darling? I love it when he does that," 

"Fuck!" 

Michael, usually the quiet one, swore at Isiah's words and broke his rhythm to slam into you. Isiah only slightly held back his laugh at that reaction. Micheal filling you to the hilt with a newfound ferocity paired with Isiah's encouragement left you squirming and coming hard around Michael's cock. Your clenching left him swearing again as he finished in you. Michael stroked your thighs with his eyes closed as you both caught your breath. 

"You're gonna to pay for that," Michael finally said, looking to Isiah, who was petting your hair. 

"You're in trouble," you teased Isiah. Michael slid out of you, doing the responsible thing of tossing away the used condom. 

"I'll pay in full, but you'll have to work for it, Peaky boy."

Isiah rolled to his back and motioned to his erection, desperately in need of attention. You crawled forward and took it in your hand, giving it a generous lick. 

"Don't worry, Mikey, I'll help." 

Michael shook his head at his two favorite people, but climbed on the bed anyway. His hand wrapped around yours, helping you pump as he licked his lips. 

"Heathens, all of us."